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INTERVIEW - Bon Jovi Pinball w/ David Van Es & Luke Underwood

Flip n Out Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·44m 46s·analyzed·Jul 28, 2026
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.021

TL;DR

Barrels of Fun reveals design philosophy behind Bon Jovi pin: approachable concert experience with competitive depth.

Summary

David Van Es and Luke Underwood from Barrels of Fun discuss the development of Bon Jovi, their first music-themed pinball machine, which was approached by Bon Jovi's team to create a game celebrating their four-decade legacy. The game emphasizes approachability for new players while maintaining competitive depth, features innovative mechanics like the heart-and-dagger moving magnet, outlane flipper saves, and a Newton spinner loop, and is designed around 17 Bon Jovi songs with three difficulty tiers (Gold/Platinum/Diamond records).

Key Claims

  • Bon Jovi's team approached Barrels of Fun to make the game; it was not initiated by David Van Es personal fandom

    high confidence · David Van Es explaining how the deal came about; corrects initial internet perception that he built the company for Bon Jovi

  • The game features 17 Bon Jovi songs, each with its own mode, across three difficulty tiers (Gold, Platinum, Diamond)

    high confidence · David Van Es describing game structure and rule design scope

  • Bon Jovi has over 10 billion streams and a catalog spanning from the 1970s to 2000s

    high confidence · David Van Es justifying why Bon Jovi was a unique licensing opportunity

  • The design philosophy prioritizes approachability for non-pinball players while maintaining competitive depth through Phil Grimaldi progressive difficulty system

    high confidence · David Van Es and Luke Underwood discussing rule design approach and gold/platinum/diamond progression

  • The heart-and-dagger mechanism can catch balls, move them up/down, shoot through, and feed multiple playfield sequences

    high confidence · Luke Underwood explaining the multi-functional moving magnet mechanic in detail

  • Van Es originally wanted a two-flipper game but team convinced him a third flipper was necessary for shot accessibility

    high confidence · David Van Es recounting design iteration where Karl D'Angelo and Luke Underwood pushed back on original two-flipper concept

  • Tommy and Gina (characters from Bon Jovi songs) appear as commentators during side modes

    high confidence · David Van Es describing narrative integration with song characters as audience members

  • Bon Jovi's family (brothers) runs the company and approves all game elements; approvals sent directly to Jon Bon Jovi even while on tour

    high confidence · David Van Es explaining approval process through Bon Jovi's family-run organization

Notable Quotes

  • “We make the music, you make the pinball machine. You do what you think is right and what's going to electrify the fans.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ mid-interview — Shows the partnership dynamic and creative autonomy Barrels of Fun had in design decisions

  • “You're choosing the song not because of what the mode is going to be or what the rules or the score is. I wanted them to choose the song because that's what ignites the mood you feel like playing the game to.”

    David Van Es @ mid-interview — Core design philosophy: emotional resonance over mechanical reward; differentiates from typical rules-first game design

  • “When you get that third flipper and especially that fourth flipper, the flipper saves, you just feel so good shooting all the shots and everything flows. I would definitely say it's the most flowing, easiest shooter of the barrels lineup so far.”

    Luke Underwood @ discussing whitewood playtest — Validates design decision to add flippers for accessibility and satisfying feel; positions Bon Jovi as most approachable in Barrels' portfolio

  • “You better put more zeros behind that score because if they drain in two minutes, I still want them to feel like a rock star.”

    David Van Es @ discussing scoring design mandate — Explains scoring philosophy to ensure player satisfaction even with short plays; addresses gender and new-player engagement

  • “I have not seen that happen in a music pin. People smiling and singing along with this game.”

    David Van Es @ discussing player reactions at playtests — Claims differentiation in emotional engagement compared to other music-themed pinball machines

  • “When you plunge that ball and that ball goes into that orbit, that's when the concert kicks in. We blend concerts throughout the four decades with the music videos as you are playing the game.”

    David Van Es @ describing first-play experience — Details multimedia integration combining concert footage and music videos across decades of Bon Jovi history

  • “It's not just a typical concert game. This is, yeah, you're playing the music, you're playing the set list, you're setting up your playlist. But the amount of people that are smiling and just singing along with this game, I have not seen that happen in a music pin.”

Entities

David Van EspersonLuke UnderwoodpersonBarrels of FuncompanyBon Jovientity_groupJeff DodsonpersonKarl D'AngelopersonPhil Grimaldiperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Bon Jovi officially revealed as Barrels of Fun's first music-themed pinball machine; differs from previous licenses in that band approached manufacturer rather than vice versa

    high · David Van Es confirms Bon Jovi team reached out to Barrels of Fun; describes licensing negotiation and ongoing approval process

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Barrels of Fun explicitly designed Bon Jovi to balance casual accessibility for non-pinball players with progressive competitive depth through three difficulty tiers, contrasting with typical industry approach of either simple or complex games

    high · Van Es mandates scoring over 500M for average play to make casual players feel successful; Phil Grimaldi implements Gold/Platinum/Diamond progression; Luke Underwood confirms easiest shot flow in Barrels lineup

  • ?

    design_innovation: Heart-and-dagger moving magnet mechanism performs multiple interactive functions (capture, directional transfer, ball lock, through-shot, jump ramp) rather than single-purpose; appears to represent design sophistication in boutique segment

    high · Luke Underwood details heart mechanism can catch ball, move it up/down, shoot through, feed upper flipper, divert to VIP entrance, execute jump ramp, and feed subway in sequence

  • ?

    design_innovation: Game implements outlane flipper saves with visual/audio feedback; Luke identifies this as standout feature that resonated with employee testers and created satisfying recovery mechanic

    high · Luke Underwood cites outlane flipper saves as number one mechanical feature; describes light show and audio feedback; reports employee enthusiasm about reinvigorated pinball experience

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.030

0:00
Hey, what's going on, Pinball Land? Welcome. It's a special edition of Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast. And today, Greg, we've got special guests from Barrels of Fun. We have the company founder, CEO, and designer of the new Bon Jovi pinball machine, Mr. David Van Ness joins us. Welcome, David, to the show. Also with us, Mr. Luke Underwood, who is the prototype engineer. Now, he had done some work on Winchester Mystery House, but this is a full game for him from start to finish. And we want to welcome you guys both to the show. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks so much for having us. Thank you. We'll get right into it. Bon Jovi is the newest release from Barrels of Fun. And it's a theme that I think a lot of people weren't expecting. Right. You know, and you're coming at it hard. It's your first music pin at Barrels of Fun. I'm excited to hear about it. How does this come about? How does Bon Jovi pop into your mind? How do you figure out that this is going to be the next game following up Winchester? What's the story behind that? Well, if I go with how the internet plays this, I'm a major Bon Jovi fan. I've followed him for 40, you know, four decades. And I just, I built this whole company to make Bon Jovi.
1:14
The reality is, it's not that. What we've been obviously making three games already. And we are now at the point that people are approaching us to make games for them. I have always enjoyed a music pin and as we were developing our games I was kind of like what would a Barrels of Fun do with a music pin? But like all licenses and IPs and partners we work with we want to make sure that we sign up with a partner that wants to make a product. And Bon Jovi actually approached us to make the game for them. We actually had a couple of bands come to us asking us if we would like to make a game with them. And it absolutely is possible that could happen. But when you look at a band that has over 10 billion streams, four decades of hits from the 70s to the 2000s, and the sheer catalogue that they have, the opportunity that they presented to us, They wanted a game that represent their legacy for the four decades. And as I pitched this to the team, you start realizing this is a nostalgia trip for anyone. You don't have to be a fan of Bon Jovi to enjoy this game. We have concert music, we have video music, clips from it. Like, this really takes people back to that first experience of going to a massive concert and all the elements that come with that. So they wanted a game that represents their whole catalog, that represents them throughout the decades, and how do we celebrate that with their fans. And it was a very unique challenge because there's a certain way music pins are done. And with the team that we've developed around us, including Jeff from Dirty Pool, this was an opportunity we could not turn down. So you said that Bon Jovi reached out to you. Is this a situation where you're sitting on an office on a Friday, cell phone rings, unknown number, you pick it up and it's like, hey, it's Jon Bon Jovi here. I want to get him on. It's his people reaching out to us. So because I actually, I probably shouldn't say this publicly, I actually do answer the phones here at the company. So it is literally the point of I pick up a call and I don't know who it is. I answer the questions and then you get the like, oh, I represent X. And we get that quite a lot, to be frank with you. Some very interesting things happen. But when you get, yeah, this was a unique experience. Like, OK, that's an interesting call. If this is legit, let's set up a meeting. And then we had a meeting and it's like, OK, this is potentially going to happen now. Oh, nice. So that being said, did Bon Jovi, did he have any creative input? Did he come in with anything or was just everything relayed through his people? Did he himself bring any ideas to his people to bring to you guys for any aspect of the game? They approve everything. So the Bon Jovi company is actually run by the family, his brothers and stuff like that. So everything runs directly through them. So that gets presented. I mean, we've even sent stuff to John while he's actually on tour right now to have approvals done. So it is a back and forth. This is the style guide. This is what we're looking at. They really lent on us because they go, we make the music, you make the pinball machine. You do what you think is right and what's going to electrify the fans. And it wasn't just about the fans. It was like, what does this music represent? It was funny. We've had people play this game now and they're like, I don't know any Bon Jovi songs. I know Wanted, right? And then all of a sudden they start playing It's My Life. They're like, oh gosh, I know this song, you know? And it's like, they walk away for five minutes and then they're humming the song and then they come right back and they play it again, you know? So it was really one of these things of everyone's like, I know some Bon Jovi songs, but I don't know a lot. And then you start going through the catalog and you're like, oh crap. Like, I know that song. I know that song. I know that song. Like, and you know it before you even get to the chorus. And that's why we knew we had a very strong IP here. Because Bon Jovi is everywhere. You can't turn on a classic radio station. You can't walk for a supermarket. You can't walk for a mall or even go to a stadium where you do not hear Bon Jovi. And that's where we knew we had a unique opportunity to create an experience where it's not just you're playing in the concert, but what I found when people were playing it, they were remembering things that they, where they were when they saw, heard that song or heard that music, watched that music video for the first time. So it was a very unique opportunity, I think, because it's not just a typical concert game. This is, yeah, you're playing the music, you're playing the set list, you're setting up your playlist. But the amount of people that are smiling and just singing along with this game, I have not seen that happen in a music pin. Nope, you're good. It's kind of ironic that you bring that up because Ken and I literally had that discussion about what something that brings the nostalgia like Bon Jovi does and with music pins. Ken literally said exactly what you said. He said it's something that captures a place in time, a moment in time that brings you back. When you hear these songs, when you listen to this, and most likely like what you said, when you step up to this game, it's going to literally ignite those emotions again and bring back those memories. So, you know, I love hearing you say that you've already that you've already witnessed that and that you've already got people that have touched the game have those experiences.

David Van Es @ mid-interview — Claims unique emotional engagement for music pins; emphasizes nostalgia over rules depth

  • “I think what they're going to experience when they walk up to this is just the flow of it. Like oh I shot the heart and it fed the outer orbit. Oh upper flipper. Oh that fed the still.”

    Luke Underwood @ discussing shot sequences — Demonstrates playfield flow and interconnected shot design creating satisfying sequences for discovery

    • [name withheld pending review]
    person
    Winchester Mystery Housegame
    Labyrinthgame
    Dune Pinballgame
    Flip N Out Pinball Podcastcontent
    Monster Bashgame
    Dirtypool Pinballcompany
    Runawaygame
    Wanted Dead or Alivegame_song
    Living on a Prayergame_mode
    Have a Nice Daygame_mode
    [name withheld pending review]game_characters
    Barrel Ballevent_program
    Zach Sharpeperson
    [name withheld pending review]person

    gameplay_signal: Game design prioritizes emotional/nostalgic song choice over mechanical rule optimization; Van Es explicitly rejected rules-first approach in favor of mood-based song selection as primary engagement mechanic

    high · Van Es states 'You should be choosing the song because that's what you want to play a game to. That's the song that ignites, that's the mood you feel like playing the game to. Everything else is secondary.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Shift in Barrels of Fun business model: moving from internally-selected IP to inbound licensing approaches (Bon Jovi, and Van Es mentions 'couple of bands' also approached them); may indicate market positioning change as boutique manufacturer gains credibility

    high · David Van Es: 'We are now at the point that people are approaching us to make games for them' and mentions receiving inquiries from multiple bands

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Barrels of Fun employs functional whitewood testing (without code/artwork) to validate shot sequences and mechanical flow; Van Es and Luke describe playtesting fun without rules as validation signal for design correctness

    high · Van Es: 'If we can shoot it and have a good time and every shot feeds into each other... we know we're in the right spot'; Luke describes whitewood iterations with third flipper as moment design clicked

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Van Es reports unprecedented player engagement for music pins: players singing along, smiling during extended play, discovering song recognition during gameplay; claims distinct from prior music-themed machines in emotional resonance

    medium · Van Es repeatedly notes player behavior (singing, smiling) and wife question 'who's screaming' during Runaway mode; contrasts with statement 'I have not seen that happen in a music pin'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: 17 Bon Jovi songs map to 17 distinct modes with three difficulty tiers (Gold/Platinum/Diamond records); tournament viability mentioned with Barrel Ball event package suggesting competitive positioning

    high · David Van Es confirms 17 songs/17 modes with tier system; mentions Barrel Ball tournament package and anticipates popularity in 'tournaments and bars'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Game blends concert footage and music videos from Bon Jovi's four-decade career across different eras; multimedia content curated as part of mode reward/engagement, not just background backdrop

    high · Van Es: 'We blend concerts throughout the four decades with the music videos as you are playing the game. So there's moments that you look up, you'll see the music video that you saw on MTV, and then all of a sudden you'll see a concert from 2000, 98, 89.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Luke Underwood elevated from assistant role (Winchester Mystery House) to full lead engineer position on Bon Jovi; characterized as first complete project ownership; suggests internal talent development at Barrels of Fun

    high · Podcast intro notes Underwood 'had done some work on Winchester Mystery House, but this is a full game for him from start to finish'; Van Es defers design questions to Luke to discuss 'his baby'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Bon Jovi licensed based on 40-year catalog, 10+ billion streams, and pervasiveness in commercial/public spaces (radio, malls, stadiums); strategy leverages ubiquitous IP for broad appeal beyond core Bon Jovi fanbase

    high · Van Es: 'Bon Jovi is everywhere. You can't turn on a classic radio station. You can't walk for a supermarket. You can't walk for a mall or even go to a stadium where you do not hear Bon Jovi.'

    • 7:02
    When we talk about experiences, when some and we're going to get into the game features, the mechs, the audio, everything in a second. But when somebody walks up to the game for the first time, they hit start and they plunge. What is it that you want the player to experience with this Bon Jovi pinball machine? So that's interesting. So it is a concert experience. So as soon as you hit start, you actually will hear it. So on the screen will automatically come up and you'll have a five sets of songs that you can choose from. And you will hear them, but they'll be muffled like you're actually outside the concert so you can hear them playing it. So it's like it's the anticipation of walking into the stadium itself. But also on the right side of that, because we actually realize a lot of non-pinball people will be approaching this game, on the right hand side we actually have custom animations of what that song and the mode it does. So one mode is shoot the ramps. You know, it actually shows you exactly what you have to do physically on the game itself before you actually plunge. But the magic is, and this is where Jeff comes involved, when you plunge that ball and that ball goes into that orbit, that's when the concert kicks in. And we blend concerts throughout the four decades with the music videos as you are playing the game. So there's moments that you look up, you'll see the music video that you saw on MTV, and then all of a sudden you'll see a concert from 2000, 98, 89. You know, like we bounce around. So there's something almost new that you're going to experience when you're actually playing each song. And I don't want to go too deep in there because I know I went away, but the whole point of you stepping up to this game is you choose which song that you remember. And I want people to choose a song, not because what the mode is going to be or what the rules or the score is. I wanted them, it was very from the get-go, you should be choosing the song because that's what you want to play a game to. That's the song that ignites, that's the mood you feel like playing the game to. Everything else is secondary to that. You're almost going through an audio diary of your younger days, you know, for somebody that's our age in this demographic. Like I can remember where I was the first time I started appreciating, you know, hearing wanted dead or alive. You know, I was on the bus on the way back from baseball practice in high school, probably. But it was great. It's a core memory. So to be able to go up there, hit start, have something that I'm passionate about, which is pinball, and then have something that I have a fond memory of that I can associate a song with, I think is is pretty powerful and it makes a lot of sense. And it makes a lot of sense. So is it safe then to assume that there's not any you're you're going for the concert experience and you're going down that whatever elicited those emotions to you back in the day and to a certain extent to today. That's the core experience of the game is just reliving those moments. Absolutely. You're reliving the past. And obviously, this is where I get kind of creative is like, I hope it caused memories of where you were. Like you said, when you're sitting on the bus and you're remembering, oh, I remember when that happens. You know, and there's key choruses that, you know, there's key wording and sentences in there, like, the still horse you ride. So, for example, this game, we wanted to make sure there was a still horse, what we call the still horse, where you lock three balls onto it. And, you know, my approach, as I told everyone as I was laying this out, and I'm going to change a little bit on the philosophy of how I laid this game out, The first thing I've made was every game we've made we've had multiple like three flippers or three or four flippers and everyone that buys our games because you know we've been making games no one's wanted since 2023 you know we do IPs that no one expects but what I've noticed as much as people are enjoying our games we have a lot of new pinball people playing our games and it takes like and you they don't use the upper flippers at all so the challenge on this game when I was laying this out I really wanted it to be a two flipper game. I wanted people to be able to walk up to this, have the time of their life, even if the ball drains in two minutes, but they can hit every shot they could do.
    11:02
    And as working with Luke this is what my dream is and this is where I want to do it There was a magnet lock a VIP area that I wanted in there because it a part of going to the concert if you are lucky enough to be part of the VIP experience I wanted the player to be able to get into a VIP experience with Bon Jovi And I put it up behind a ramp and I was like, Luke was telling me and Carl was telling me, you can't hit that shot. Just move it a little bit more, twist it around so we can hit it from the bottom flipper. Like you need to put a third flipper in. It's like, I really want a two flipper game. And they eventually showed me and we had to put the third one in. And that was when I was kind of like, well, screw it. Let's put four in. And that's when I put the flipper in the outlane because why not? But again, the whole approach was to make it approachable for anyone to be able to hit every shot and have a good time. And also, again, that leads back into things of having features in there, like the hearts. That's the most iconic thing when it comes to Bon Jovi, the heart and the dagger, which is what the whole game is centered around that Luke designed. So you bring up things like, you know, you've got the still horse ball lock, you've got the heart and dagger, you know, you end up deciding you originally wanted a two flipper game. It ends up being a three flipper game. At what point in the process, I mean, because it's a long process and you've got a lot going on. At what point, what portion of your design did it just, everything clicked, everything felt good. You said, okay, like this is the game that I want. I am proud of this game. This does Bon Jovi. Just this, this is exactly where this pin needs to be. Was it that third flipper moment? What moment in that process literally just gave you that feeling that was overwhelming? Well, you know what? I'm going to turn that to Luke. So why don't you tell them about your experience coming onto this project? Because he came halfway through Winchester. This is kind of the first project that was completely his baby. So, you know, you saw the ideas. Yeah. And so, I mean, it kind of came to me pretty quickly because we were still working on Winchester, actually. And he was like, you know, in the time that you have, I've got this illustrator drawing and, you know, I'd like you to try to take that and, you know, take it into software. So we went into SolidWorks and started making prototypes for us. And if you look at that original drawing from what we have now, there's a few differences. Obviously, there are only two flippers on that one. But I'd say that moment that it really came together was probably like first or second Whitewood when we had that third flipper. And we had like three printed ramps on there and everything was actually working functionally, not with code. But I was just like, I was having a blast playing. David was just, he wanted from the very beginning for the player to feel like a rock star while you're playing. And I think when we got that third flipper and especially that fourth flipper, the flipper saves, you just feel so good shooting all the shots and everything flows. I would definitely say it's the most flowing, easiest shooter of the barrels lineup so far. And I think it really just helps you feel like a rock star. So you guys are designing this, David. You're going back and forth. You've got the Whitewoods and everything. Obviously, you don't have the game coded. You probably don't have music and stuff coded, but you guys had to have turned on some Bon Jovi while you're still flipping before stuff was coded, didn't you? Were you just playing it in the background repetitively as you're designing this game? You know, you don't realize how much like if you know Bon Jovi is a good example of it, but it's funny how you don't recognize Bon Jovi music until like, oh, I'm working on this. And then every time you're in the car or wherever you are, it's like, there's wonder again. There's bad medicine again. There's like, it's like, man, I'm hearing this four or five times a day. But he brought up a really good point. We get excited about games when there's no code in them. If we can shoot it and have a good time and every shot feeds into each other like we could one thing I always try to do is make sure we can trigger a switch so if I hit a certain shot and there's a switch in there it should be able to activate the next sequence and events and we can get those in a sequence all together and we're having fun without rules we know we're in the right spot and that's basically what we do with all our white woods is we shoot it with nothing on it and if it's achieving and the toys are doing what we want them to do. We know we're in the right place because again, we don't touch whitewood until we know what toys and where we want to go with that. If I'm considering a pinball machine and I'm looking at not necessarily an elevator pitch, but I'm looking for features that I think will make me want to come back and play a game over and over and over again. I'd be curious to see what the two of you think, whether you go left to right or north to south on this game, what are four or five mechs or features where you're like, yep, this felt really good and we can't wait for people to experience this? Okay, I'll take this one. I think there's a very clear first, like number one answer for me. And that's also like what I've heard from some of the employees who've been playing the games here and there. And that is the outlane flipper saves. I've heard that that really reignited like that pinball moment for him that he hadn't really experienced in a while. And that was just so good to hear. And I have to agree with him. Like when you're playing and you like get the outlane save and all like the light shows go off and like the audio, it just feels so good to like be the have actually saved your ball that way. So for me, that would be number one. And then I think the other ones that come to mind are the loop-de-loop spinner flip shot. I think that's really fun and satisfying to hit. Explain that to me a little bit more, Luke, while you're on there. We'll try to throw some stuff up there. Explain that a little more in depth for us. I want to hear a little more. There's a lot of names. I've heard it have been called. I think the one name I would give it is the Newton Ball Spinner Enclosure Loopty Loop. And so basically, it's a Newton Ball. It just rings off the tongue there, Luke. You know he's an engineer, right? I had to shorten it. I call it the Newton Spinner Enclosure. That's just what I call it. But essentially you have a Newton ball and you have a captive ball and that captive ball and it is in a sort of snail shell looking wire form that encloses it with a spinner. So when you hit that Newton ball, that ball travels through the spinner over the spinner and back towards the front. And if you can get a good hit, not only are you going around the spinner, but that spinner is like ripping as well. And you're not always going to get all the way around the spinner, but when you do, it's very satisfying. It's the crowd cheer. That's what you're using to amp up. So if you hit, so that was one of the things that you're playing the music and every combo, the crowd gets louder and louder. And then if you hit the crowd cheer of that loop and you get it, like, it's just like, that's kind of like your, you know, like, oh, I just nailed it. And then when it goes out the outline, it comes back in and they all cheer because you've made it back in. It's just one of those just silly moments, like shouldn't exist, but it just rocks, you know? The big mech in the game, we were talking about it a second ago, the heart and dagger. I mean, that's the most obvious thing you're going to see on that playfield. And when you see it in motion, you're going to want to make that happen again and again and again. Can you explain to us a little bit, Luke, maybe like what exactly is that mech? And I don't even need to necessarily know what you need to do to activate it. But how was that figured to be implemented into the game? And how difficult was that for you guys to get working? Because, again, it's pretty substantial. Yeah, so actually that we had a lot of the game set from the beginning, but there was always what is going to be like the main big piece up the center that you are going to want to hit what's going to draw people in. And that actually came kind of a bit later after some of the flow had already been locked in. And there was at one point, like, I don't know how long ago now, but we all kind of got together in a conference or like, let's figure this out. I think it was Carl, me and David, a couple other people. And it was then that we started talking about how we could make this heart and dagger, like their main logo, a big feature of the game. And people were just throwing out ideas. And I think it slowly came to fruition that we would have a moving magnet heart that could both catch the ball, move it up and down and shoot through it. Of course, you have to be able to shoot through it. Shoot through the heart. That was the one thing from the get go. I was like, that has to be a feature of the game. I think you have to shoot through the heart because there were some other ideas, but you have to shoot through it. And I think things just got way. By the way, I always love mechs. That was so brilliant how you just slipped that in there because that didn't dawn on me until you did. It is. It is. And I love mechs that do multiple things. That's just where my heart is. I love it when mechs can do multiple things. It's where your heart is, huh? Yeah, where my heart is. There's no hole in it, though. But that's where, like, Kyle was like, he was saying as he was shooting it, is like, when you, that ball comes around, you shoot for the heart, If you shoot through the heart, the diverter goes up, feeds the upper flipper, and then you hit the VIP entrance and that ripper spins and it catches it and locks it, it is so satisfying. But then there's a moment where it will go up and you actually do a jump ramp through the heart and it goes to a second wire form back to the right in lane. And then there's a moment where if you shoot the heart, it can grab the ball, take it all the way up to the top level and throw the ball back onto the upper ramp. And you can shoot underneath it too to feed a Subway. So like we just wanted to make sure like every shot, it just feels so good when you shoot through that heart and it grabs it and takes it up and it kicks out a second ball. It's just, it's just fun. It's just kiddie fun. You know, you look at your past games, you look at what you guys did with Labyrinth, you look at what you did with Dune, you look at what you guys did with Winchester. You know, you, in my opinion, you all are known to make moments and create moments. So, you know, everything you're describing to me sounds like that even though this is a concert pin, it's a little deviation from what you guys have done in the past. You know, you have you have truly kept those moments alive. And it seems like a pretty big focus of this game is to still create those moments. Well, one good thing we do have in this is we actually, if you guys remember, there's a couple that really go through their career as characters in their songs, Tommy and Gina. So as a side mode on this game as you're in the concert experience, Tom and Gina are actually in the audience. So while you're listening to the song you make in the shots, all of a sudden you'll make a go to the merch shop and you hear Tommy go, let's start a wave! And then you've got to start hitting certain shots to create a wave around the audience. And they're like, here comes the beach ball! You know, it's just like they're having a good time. So they're doing commentary. Tommy and Gene are at a Bon Jovi concert doing a running commentary while you're there enjoying some of the best music they've ever produced. Is there anything on that play field where somebody is going to step up to it and play the game for the first time and they're going to discover something that wasn't immediately obvious where it's going to make them smile and be like, OK, that's pretty cool. I think what they going to experience when they walk up to this is just the flow of it Like oh I shot the heart and it fed the outer orbit Oh I shot the heart and it fed the upper flipper Oh that fed the still I shot the orbit and now it feeding a physical lock next to the heart Oh I just shot the heart and now it going up to another level Like there just these little combination of all these little things that you don expect it to do it but it does it You know, there's drop targets in the outer orbit. So like, um, Have a Nice Day is a really good example. Have a Nice Day is just purely ramps and orbits, but Have a Nice Day comes from their album Have a Nice Day. You shoot the ramp and then you got to shoot the drop target in the orbit and it's just like back and forth, back and forth. But it's just with the music, it's so simple, but it's just so much fun. And while you're doing that, you're actually spelling love in the inlands. And if you do that, you can get an additional score by shooting through the heart because it's love and you collect that bonus for hitting X amount of targets. Phil Grimaldi actually is the lead game rule designer on this in gameplay and he came off of Dune and he's actually taken this to a whole new level where like very approachable like level one for people that don't know what they're doing and then they can progress up to higher levels and they did that through gold, platinum and diamond records and that increases the difficulty. You're talking about things I like. It's like, have a nice day. It's just the simplicity of the combinations of all utilizing the playfield all over the place. Because I do the layout with, you know, Luke here, but it's the whole team that comes together like, well, we could do this and we can do that. Well, that doesn't work. Let's do this. And having an open dialogue with the dedicated people to take this where it is, is I am so proud. The first time I was setting up this area today to have four of our games here and they're so radically different. These other games are honestly quite hard. To make a game that is way more approachable just makes me so happy. I had people here playing it last night and my wife came out and was like, who's screaming? I'm like, what do you mean? Like someone's screaming and it's literally a 40 year old male in here playing runaway. He goes, I don't know what this song is, man. I said, you should listen to the lyrics, dude. You know, but he was just having a blast. And it's just, it's approachable. That's why... Well, you know what stood out to me, David, that I like to hear is, is we've seen manufacturers before that will come out and they'll try to make an approachable game, but the game has no depth. You know, it's, it's very easy. You run through it and it's kind of like a very old school Bally Williams game to where that, you know, you run through it quick and then it's just rinse and repeat. So, you know, I think that hearing that you were able to develop a game for once that is approachable, but that also the more you progress, there can be varying difficulties for people like us that would want to play and have a lot more depth to it. You know, it's nice that you just didn't create, hey, we want to make an approachable game for everybody. But that also just involves making a very shallow, simple game that, you know, you incorporated some depth and a little difficulty into that as well for more experienced players like like that. That's just I love hearing that because I just can't believe that manufacturers have missed the mark with that in the past, honestly. Well, and the thing is, like with Phil, Phil, Phil and Bowen and Carl, they're going to make these rules balanced and really fun for the competitive player. But they also understand it has to be approachable for anyone to do it. And it was just one of those opportunities that, you know, let's open this up for everyone. You know, like, how can we make sure even if you drain two minutes into your first song, I still want them to feel like a rock star. Like my mandate has been like, you better put more zeros behind that score because if they I've seen this with my wife, I take my wife to play pinball. She's not a pinball person. She plays Monster Bash and she gets like 30 million points. She goes, this is good, right? And you're like, yeah, it is. Good job. But she felt good because of the score. And then she'll play another game that has very low scores and it's demeaning to her because I just did that. And that was one of the mandates, again, I put on the team. It's like, you better make everyone feel like a rock star from this. If this is not hitting 500 million points on the average gameplay for a good player, then we've missed the mark because we've got a lot of people that are going to approach this for the first time that's never played bimball and they need to feel like a rock star. I can speak on this a little bit too. I would say more of an intermediate player. I'm not like a hardcore tournament player. But you can certainly walk up to the game. You don't have to think about like, oh, how do I start modes? You start right into the mode. You start the fun like right away. But there's still modes that I find difficult. Like living on a prayer, I think, is a great mode where you have to show some like multi ball control, but it's a bit nicer too because it'll sometimes grab one ball for you. And that mode as like a more intermediate player really draws me back. It feels like I haven't beat it yet, but it feels like I can like if I just play one more time. Right now, is the game structured so that, for instance, can I ask you as the maybe as the code is now or where you see the code progressing, how many modes are we looking at and how many many wizard modes or wizard modes would we be looking at when code is finished? So that's obviously something to change to however we see it develop and we get feedback as the game goes out. But we have 17 songs from Bon Jovi. So we've got 17 songs that have 17 different modes to those. And then there's three different tiers on top of that where it's the album classes, Gold, Platinum and Diamond. It should be simple to play. And if you, you know, I actually see this in tournaments and bars getting really popular. In fact, I'm turning around the idea we have Barrel Ball events. With this game, I think with the Barrel Ball package we send out, I think we need to send out wigs. So when you're playing this game, you've got to put the wig on, you know, and have a damn good time. But it should be approachable. Like you can start getting your combos going down and you should feel good about that. But when the complex player comes up and they want a tournament, now they've got to really strategize of, are they going to go for the VIP room as they're climbing up the room or they want to start a wave going at the same time. And I leave that up to Phil and Carl to come up with the more complex stuff while I just sit here just smiling, grin to grin, And just hitting my combos the best I can, you know?
    28:32
    And you have 17. There are studio tracks, right? So this is exactly what you're used to listening to when you were rocking on the radio. Yesteryear and today, you said you've integrated concert footage and the actual music videos, which I think is pretty cool. How did you and the band determine what 17 songs were going to finally dictate that set list for the game? Well, they literally said, like, we know what we like to play. And I've seen all their set lists of what they do, and it's a variant on what they do. But I didn't want to have just concert music, which we could have gone down that path, and a lot of people do choose to do that. But it is important to have the studio masters because that is actually what we remember, and those are the sounds that we have that connection to that nostalgia to, including the music videos. We didn't have to go and get the music videos. But again, John and the team wanted this to be their legacy. They wanted this to connect to their fans. Even if you're not a fan of them now, you may be a fan in the early 2000s or the 90s or the 80s or the 70s. Right? So we had to make sure they wanted to ask like, what's going to give people that nostalgia hit? And there's lists that obviously we have the greatest ones they've ever had. But in that 17, there's different ones in there because it's not because that was one of their biggest hits, but we know the love song that they have is going to hit the wives or someone that was on a date with their wife for the first time that they're going to go, oh, crap, I've got to play this, you know. So it was more about us choosing songs that create that stirs that memory up, that that nostalgia time when you potentially heard it. I'm not saying I'm, you know, Xavier and I'm plugged into everyone's brains. It's like, what's the songs they're going to want to listen to? But it really was. They put us in charge of how can we make cool moments that people are going to react to? And that is basically going over their set list, going over what they're known for, doing deep dive in their catalog and figuring out like on the play field, on the art with Johnny Crapp did the artwork, Was finding badges and concert leaflets and posters that when people see that may not mean anything to me, but they were there in England for the first time or when they played in Russia for the first time or in the bar at Jersey. We got a badge from that. You know, it's just like, how can we have people connect to the band? And they really lent on us to do our research of how we can take those 17 songs. Well, it didn't have to be 17, but we came up to 17 songs that made sense for an experience. I'll get that when I first saw the photos of it. I said, I said, Ken, I said, you know, it looks I said it looks like a Bon Jovi fans bedroom back in 1985 or something. I said it literally like that's what the whole pen, the play, the back glass, everything says to me is it was like a diehard Bon Jovi fan. And it was their bedroom at that point in time. I love it. So I love that you reinforced that and brought all that up of what you guys and what Johnny was looking at putting into it. It makes me feel good. Well, I want to go back to Johnny as well. Like Johnny's approach to this was, we obviously have a nostalgia, like Bon Jovi was big in the 90s. So we really like when we're looking at the artwork, it's like we need to make this look like a William Bailey or Deadery style artwork on the plate. It has to conjure up those feelings and experiences. And that's what Johnny completely led into. So on the left side is all of... I have to say, David, when we were speaking offline before we got into this interview, that was a lot of the vibe that we were kind of picking up. And now to realize that it was intentional makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, it literally reminded me a lot of Lethal Weapon 3, like one of my favorite games. That artwork kind of had that throwback to that game of Dad East. Like on the left side, it is the modern era of Bon Jovi, the 2000s, right? Late 2000s, 2000s. And as you come around to the right side, it's actually all the 90s and 70s. So what we're trying to capture, yeah, again, their leaders, it's their legacy. What is the four decades of what they've done, what they've done and twice? And that's what Johnny really led into. Going back to sound for just one second, because I know you had mentioned that Jeff Dobson, he was lead audio engineer on this game. Is that correct? Yes, audio director. He asked for that credit. He literally messaged me and was like, can I have audio direct? And I was like, yes, Jeff, you can. I like that. I like that. Now, Jeff's a younger guy. What was his feelings? And maybe he can speak for himself at some point if he wants to come on. But I mean, what was it? What was his initial reaction when when he was going to be working with Bon Jovi as a soundtrack of people's lives and into your latest pinball machine? Because his work, especially as of recent, has been wildly celebrated in pinball and a true asset to Barrels of Fun. Well, he is. He's as crazy as we are, right? He's all about emotions. I mean, he's worked in film and TV forever, even more than I have. And when Bon Jovi was presented to him and he not the instant Bon Jovi like I love Bon Jovi But like when he found out about Bon Jovi and then he started listening to the music and goes dude I don a first of all I don have to write music like he loves writing music because I don have to write a single piece of music but now I have an opportunity to create a soundstage of how do I make again the same this is why he really is at home with barrels of fun is like I can now create an audio experience where I can just focus on making sound effects and creating moments of music He's been a kid in a candy store. Him and me have been fighting a little bit because I want to hear more music. We've got to hear more sound effects. So we're getting that rough balance of what that's going to be. They're working through that even to right now. They'll do this for the next three months. But getting that fine balance, he just wants to create moments, which is no different than everyone on our team. They want to create moments. Jeff is one of the few people that has a game right now. Yep. Because just so that he can like lock in like this, the game to sound as good as possible as a player and not like just from his equipment that he has. He needs the game to make the sound as good as possible when you're playing. And actually to that point is we actually have a whole new sound system in this game. We actually have brought on a speaker company that did acoustics with our cabinets because pinball machines, to be blunt with y'all, It's not a very good cabinet for speakers. And going from Labyrinth and then to Dune, we had to increase our audio amplifier because Dune was a very audio heavy movie license. So we wanted to really represent that in the game. And we knew we would have to take it up a notch again for Winchester and this. So we went from off-the-shelf speakers to a bigger amplifier, then to our own custom-made speakers that are actually matched to our cabinets, to now our own, so in this game we have our own amplifier system built for the specs for this cabinet, which will be a continuing legacy into our future titles. But we also now have an enclosed subwoofer as well because you've got to play this game loud. And I don't mean just loud where it's vibrating and everything, but I want it to be clear and loud.
    35:47
    So we upgraded the whole audio package. And that's the reason why Jeff got the game because it's a whole new speaker system. So he actually is tweaking the game physically to make it where we want it to be, where you experience this, you're hearing every little pin drop, every little bass hitting you. It's so important. I mean, there's so many aspects of a pinball machine. And we were recently, we were talking about the artwork and Johnny Crap's style and approach to the artwork. We talked about the play field design. Recently, just now we're talking about audio and Jeff Dobson's approach and you choosing the tracks. But David, I got to be honest with you. One of the things that I love in a pinball machine the most, and in my opinion, it's most impactful in a game, is the light show. And I would love to get some foresight or a little commentary on the approach to the light show and if it's going to burn my eyes out because I just I want to I want to have an issue with after playing the game. I love light shows from a track mode to to ball one to ball three. I love them. I'll let you take that. I have kind of a funny story about this because since this is the first game where I got to what's here from the start, part of my job was to create the layout for the LED boards underneath the game. And I was told there was no limit. So I went absolutely crazy, first of all, putting LEDs under some of these inserts. So how many lights are under the legendary insert? I think under Legendary alone, there's probably at least 15 LEDs. And the one insert. And I knew ahead of time that the light shows were going to have to be crazy for this game. You want to feel like a rock star, like I was saying before, when you're playing. And so, you know, the electrical engineer was actually kind of mad at me because, you know, it made his job a little bit harder having to be able to... Pushing the limits there. You don't realize how LEDs suck power like you wouldn't believe. Yeah. But the whole point of the light show is like they've, uh, Phil actually developed, not Phil, Eric developed this on Winchester where he does secondary light shows. So Trent creates the light shows. He implements it, but we have two layers of light shows. Now one layer of light shows is for the indication of what you're actually doing from the mode. But now we have a secondary light show that is all atmospheric. So it actually sits underneath it. So it actually so the music in this is actually has its own light show that's in time with the music. But then you have a secondary light show over top of that that actually is telling you what to do. And there's like different levels of like we've had to drop the transparency or move stuff around because you don't want it to flood the people like all the flashing lights. But you can very clearly tell what is the light show for the song versus what you're actually shooting for. Are there any other stories or kind of like maybe things that aren't so obvious that somebody would appreciate knowing before they step up to the game for the first time or maybe after playing it a few times have yet to realize? There's a scoop on the far left side, right? That is fed by Subway from the heart and you can also shoot into it. And that scoop is set there for secondary love songs. Well, it was going to be secondary love songs, but it's also an opportunity if you want to, if you're playing the mode and you've done really good, you can actually transition to the next song or you can continue to rock on. So it's like basically, do you want to rock on or do you want to move on to the next set list, next song?
    39:14
    So a lot of people don't realize when they shoot that scoop, and that's why we had to put graphics on the display, is like before I wanted it to be a continuous experience. But when you shot into that scoop and you didn't know that was going to switch from a song or not because it was all flipper led, it was really, really hard. So when people step up at this and they shoot that scoop, they should understand if they want to continue to listen to that music and also or not continue listening to that music. And they have actually the option to continue on or switch to another song. And that was something I wasn't a fan of until I kept shooting that scoop and the song would stop and I'm jamming out to living on a prayer. And I'm like, what the hell? Like I was in the mode here. Now I'm moving on to, you know, Wanted, which is one of my favorite modes as well. But that was like know how to select your song, build your set list, shoot your shots and know when to start and stop your next song when you want to, which is by shooting the scoop on the left. I love this. I'm telling you, Phil's going to yell at me. He goes, that's not how the rules work. Well, you know what? And we purposely don't go too deep into the rules because I know that stuff does change. I really did like it and Greg brought it to my attention. The whole guitar net going up with the inserts, that's really cool. It guides you naturally towards the top of the playfield. I think it's brilliant.
    40:27
    I appreciated that Greg brought that up. You'll know when you have to hit the heart. Oh yeah. Because there's this huge trove going up the whole guitar. Oh, that's even better. That's got to be a pinball moment, man. Like when you get that heart up there, that's where that machine's got to explode in your face and give you chills. Because it's naturally showing that crescendo in real time and like I could see that just everybody trying to work towards that all the time. When you're playing Wanted and you're playing the song and this is the brilliance of Jeff, all the other little switches are either motorbike sounds or lightning crackling. So you get when you hit in the shot and it's just like you feel like you're riding in the desert, you know, and he's just like, yeah, times haven't changed. He's like, you hit that ball one and he's like, awesome. And you load up the third ball and then you get them all released. It's just, yeah, it's freaking awesome. That does sound pretty awesome. See, it's one of those things that, you know, like I said before, like a music pin for you guys is a little bit of a deviation away from what you've done before. And, you know, I always described, you know, even Winchester to an extent, but obviously Dune, you know, was just a cinematic experience. So, you know, I think concert pins, you get very carried away with just the concert aspect in it, you know, roving lights, this sort of thing, that very atmospheric concert thing. But it sounds like what you're saying, you know, you guys kind of incorporated and kind of made this a cinematic event, like music video or otherwise, that helps pull you into the concert experience even more than what you normally would. Well, and that's what enticed me to do this pin was like, we've done Light and Family movies. We've done Dune, which is a very cinematic, very dramatic film piece. And then we have Winchester that's spooky and haunting. And they all represent what we do is like in-depth experiences. And where people just say music pins are just jukeboxes. And there is that point because you are choosing the music. But that was the challenge that I wanted to do. We can make it more than that. How do we make it more than that? And that was, again, when you have a band call you up and it's like, we want you to do this, you're like, well, how can we make this a barrel experience? How do we make this connect to the fans? And that's really what kind of drive me to do this. It was like, what can we do to say, wow, I didn't see them doing that. And that will say the same for the game five and game six. It's like, I don't know where these guys are doing.
    42:57
    And if you're watching this right now, the game has been officially revealed. I the first public appearance of the game is going to be coming up here on July 31st, 2026 at Southern Fried Gaming Expo in Atlanta. Yeah, I mean, every new title generates a lot of conversation, a lot of debate. People want to have a chance to play it. How do you handle the feedback of the community once the game is revealed? Just like Labyrinth, just like Dune, and just like Winchester, if we chose to do it, you should at least give it a play. And when you play it, you'll see what we're doing. Like, really, just give it a shot. I hope people understand we create moments and experiences, and if we choose an IP that we're working with, it's because we have a great partner to create a great experience and we want to share that with you. So if you see a game coming out, it may not be your cup of tea, or maybe it is, but go and hit start and plunge that ball and have a damn good time. Well, David and Luke, thank you guys both so much. Congratulations on the new release. If you want to grab one of these, you can now. We're at FlippinOutPinball.com. Please go ahead and stop in. You can put one in your cart and check out, or you can contact myself or Greg. My email is Ken at FlippinOutPinball.com. Greg, what's your email? Greg at flip the letter N out pinball.com. Once again, guys, appreciate the time today. Wish you guys luck. Congratulations. Have fun at Southern Pride Gaming Expo. And again, thanks for the time. Really appreciate that. Thank you, guys.
    44:43
    Thank you.