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Episode 68 - Band Pins

Wedgehead Pinball PodcastĀ·podcast_episodeĀ·1h 9mĀ·analyzedĀ·Feb 3, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 Ā· $0.035

TL;DR

History and analysis of band-themed pinball machines from 1975 to modern era.

Summary

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast explores the history and evolution of band-themed pinball machines, tracing their development from the 1970s (Captain Fantastic, Kiss, Dolly Parton) through the modern era (Elvis, Guns N' Roses). The hosts discuss licensing challenges, the 14-year gap in band pin releases during the 1980s, and advocate for contemporary artists like Taylor Swift to receive pinball machines.

Key Claims

  • Captain Fantastic (1976) by Bally was the best-selling EM pinball game of all time with almost 17,000 units

    high confidence Ā· Alan states this as a factual production figure for the EMs era

  • There were 14 years between Rolling Stones (1980) and the next licensed music pinball game (The Who's Tommy in 1994)

    high confidence Ā· Alan explicitly identifies this gap in the chronological history presented

  • Dolly Parton (1979) remains the only female musician with her own dedicated pinball machine

    high confidence Ā· Alan states this as a current fact about the pinball industry, noting its significance

  • Data East Guns N' Roses (1994) was the first game to feature an exclusive never-before-released song ('Ain't Going Down') that only appeared on the pinball machine

    medium confidence Ā· Alan notes looking into this 'just today' but mentions instrumental versions and other releases complicate the claim slightly

  • Gottlieb designed a Brooks and Dunn pinball game in the mid-1990s but never released it due to company liquidation

    high confidence Ā· Alan presents this as documented history; a playable version was constructed in 2017 from original parts

  • Slash (Guns N' Roses guitarist) received co-design credit on the Data East Guns N' Roses pinball game

    high confidence Ā· Alan states John Borg confirmed this; Slash is described as a longtime pinball enthusiast

  • Data East Guns N' Roses was the first production pinball game to come with a headphone jack in the cabinet

    medium confidence Ā· Alan notes that John Borg confirmed this but states not every production unit came with one

  • Elvis (2004) marks the beginning of choosing band/musicians from earlier generations rather than contemporary artists

    high confidence Ā· Alan presents this as a strategic industry shift toward nostalgia licensing

Notable Quotes

  • ā€œa Taylor Swift pin would be the single. like no other single license could make more of a positive impact to the hobbyā€

    Alan @ N/A ā€” Advocates for contemporary female artist representation in pinball, contrasting the complete absence since Dolly Parton (1979)

  • ā€œSlash actually is a super big pinball head. He has been forever. He's actually probably the coolest guy that's into pinball ever. Right. Like the biggest celebrity, the coolest celebrity that's ever been into pinball.ā€

    Alan @ N/A ā€” Establishes Slash's credibility and influence as a pinball enthusiast; explains his involvement with GNR game design

  • ā€œit's like, there's a song about pinball. we should probably make another pinball machine about the song about pinball it still happens to this day too manā€

    Alex @ N/A ā€” Humorously notes the recurring cultural association between 'Pinball Wizard' and pinball games, influencing licensing decisions

  • ā€œif you own a rock everyone thinks you own a heavy metal meltdown because these generic themes just kind of mix up with each otherā€

    Alex @ N/A ā€” Commentary on 1980s Gottlieb's generic music-themed games being visually and thematically indistinguishable

  • ā€œthe bands like they command stronger emotions both ways like people will fucking hate bands and there will be people that would like die for their band yeah and will buy a game even if it's dog shit because they love that band so muchā€

    Alan @ N/A ā€” Explains the unique market dynamics of band-licensed games vs. movie/IP licenses; identifies passionate fan bases as driver of sales

  • ā€œthis is probably the game that could have saved got leap in most likely pinball as we know it but we don't live in that worldā€

    Alan @ N/A ā€” Speculates Brooks and Dunn pinball could have rescued Gottlieb's financial troubles had it been released before company liquidation

  • ā€œZZ Top fucking rips, dudeā€

    Alex @ N/A ā€” Personal enthusiasm; Alan earlier suggested ZZ Top as ideal candidate for future band pinball with Steve Ritchie design

Entities

AlanpersonAlex the WaterboypersonWedgeheadorganizationPintasticeventCaptain FantasticgameDolly PartongameGuns N' RosesgameSlashpersonThe Who's Tommygame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Gottlieb's unreleased Brooks and Dunn (mid-1990s) represents missed opportunity that 'could have saved got leap and most likely pinball as we know it' per Alan's speculation

    medium Ā· Alan states: 'this is probably the game that could have saved got leap in most likely pinball as we know it but we don't live in that world'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong community resistance to band pinball dominance expressed through podcast commentary ('loudly voice their displeasure') and contrasted against passionate fan base loyalty for specific bands

    high Ā· Alan: 'a lot of people will loudly voice their displeasure for band pins, in particular, when people talk about new games coming up, what's coming out and everyone go, i don't care just no more old man band pins'

  • ?

    community_signal: Wedgehead's Dolly Parton pinball demonstrates strong casual player engagement and photo/media interest in female musician representation despite being only female artist with dedicated pin

    high Ā· Alan: 'people gravitate towards that game because they're like oh my god dolly parton i have to play this game... casuals in there that are like running to each other and be like oh my god they got a dolly parton pinball machine'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Gender representation gap in band pinball licensing (Dolly Parton 1979 remains sole female musician pin despite decades of artist licensing) represents market blind spot and missed opportunity

    high Ā· Alan: 'Dolly parton was and remains to this day the only female musician with her own pinball machine... genuinely crazy... it's just kind of, it's genuinely like a novelty to see something like that'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper Ā· $0.209

0:30
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. I am your host, Alan, one of the owners of Wedgehead, a pinball bar in Portland, Oregon. Joined in the basement studio, as always, with my co-host and good buddy, Alex the Waterboy. How are you? I'm doing pretty good, Alan. I'm doing especially good because I get to plug our coffee fundraiser. You love plugging the coffee fundraiser. I love it. Yeah, so for those that don't know, you probably do by now, we're raising money, go to a trip to Pentastic over outside of Boston. Some of these episodes, I've been saying it's Allentown. That's because I don't know anything about the East Coast. But it's not Allentown. It's Pentastic. We're trying to raise money to go there. We're getting pretty close at this point. You know, I don't know if we're going to have any stickers left by the time this episode airs because I've been plugging these stickers for a few weeks now. But if we do, maybe we'll give you some stickers if you send us $10 or more. They're stickers of Floopy Drooper in a special Boston attire. Proud supporters stickers. They're very cool. They're very high-quality printing, very low-quality art. So go ahead. Even if you don't, you can send us some bucks, and we'll see. Maybe we'll be getting pretty close, I hope, by the time this episode airs. I think so. and we plan on seeing y'all, all of our great supporters, out in Pintastic in April. Yeah, I'd say at this point, the shtick's up. We're coming out there either way. So, you know, we'll see you guys. We'll see you guys. Whether we make it over the finish line or not. Yeah, we'll probably dig into our own pockets and make it out there.
2:06
But that's not what we're really here today to talk about. We're actually here to talk about something, you know, much more exciting and cool. And what is that, Alan? Today's episode is all about a certain genre, sub-genre if you will, of pinball machines. And one that has been around for quite some time, but it's recently grown quite large in the pinball hobby. And that is of course the band pin. A band pin is a pinball machine based upon a typically old and typically all-male rock band that was popular sometime in the 1970s or 1980s. although the foo fighters were relevant a scant 30 years ago at this point so progress diversity we're getting there i don't really know but that's what we're going to discuss today on the show band pins band pins yeah it's kind of funny because it's like you think of these as like a mainstay of pinball and then looking back doing like the putting together the list of band pins for this episode, it's like there really weren't that many for a long period. No, it's just a modern thing. And we'll kind of talk about why that is and how we got to where we are today, where this is just an expected thing. Yeah. And a lot of people will loudly voice their displeasure for band pins, in particular, when people talk about new games coming up, what's coming out and everyone go, i don't care just no more old man band pins yeah it's interesting to me i was talking about this just recently with megan is that the bands like they command stronger emotions both ways like people will fucking hate bands and there will be people that would like die for their band yeah and will buy a game even if it's dog shit because they love that band so much and you don't really see that nearly as strongly with movies yeah and it might just be because there's a lot more movies than there are big bands you know there's a lot of people with a deadpool machine in their basement and they don't love deadpool the comic book character or deadpool the movie necessarily but they end up with the deadpool machine because they don't hate the character they don't hate the ip and they love the game yeah but it is it is a tough sell when it's like if you don't like you know acdc do you really want to be playing acdc in your house all the time listening to acdc it's a tough sell and we'll get to those later we gotta start with the early band pins here yeah we're rewinding the clock to what was the first so i think the first one is wizard in may 1975 by bally it's also kind of considered to be the first truly licensed game in general but it's based on the movie but it does feature roger daltrey lead singer of the who so it's not a who based pin but it's based on the movie now we're gonna count it for now and so and it is a it's considered a licensed game and he's in a band he sings the song pinball wizard i'm sure y'all have heard it the next game the next year also by bally is captain fantastic which also features elton john's character from the movie so it's kind of weird that we had like these like sister pins like this these are ems for anyone not aware by the way and they were big successes captain fantastic ended up being the best-selling em of all time with almost 17,000 units which is fucking bonkers because they were making a new game every month back at this point in time so they didn't really despite selling tons and tons of games they didn't sell tons of individual titles yep and so it was like oh okay there's something to this you can milk a design way longer and you know get your your quantities of stuff way higher if you put a license on there Yeah, so this is like features Elton John wearing his big stilettos playing the giant machine from the movie Tommy. You can't call those stilettos. Yeah. They're like big platform boots. Platform boots. It's crazy. Yeah, you're right. Platform boots.

  • ā€œI would much rather be give me a great song and pair it with a different theme yeah that and we'll get to our overall opinions of you know kind of band pins in generalā€

    Alan @ N/A ā€” Foreshadows critique of modern era band pins; advocates for song licensing without full thematic commitment

    • Lyman Sheetsperson
    John Borgperson
    Brooks and Dunngame
    Elvisgame
    Steve Ritchieperson
    Kissgame
    Rolling Stonesgame
    Data Eastcompany
    Gottliebcompany
    Ballycompany
    Mary Shelley's Frankensteingame
    Pat Lawlorperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Ted Nugentgame

    design_philosophy: Hosts advocate for returning to mid-period model of licensing specific songs paired with different themes rather than full band-theming (e.g., Mary Shelley's Frankenstein with Frankenstein song)

    high Ā· Alan: 'I would much rather be give me a great song and pair it with a different theme... I like that i miss that from that kind of middle period of band pins'

  • $

    market_signal: Taylor Swift pinball positioned by hosts as generational opportunity to inject contemporary female artist into pinball market and attract new demographic to hobby

    medium Ā· Alan: 'a Taylor Swift pin would be the single. like no other single license could make more of a positive impact to the hobby... That would get more new blood into the hobby than any single license you could procure'

  • $

    market_signal: 14-year gap in band pinball releases (1980-1994) attributed to technology limitations and licensing preferences in industry, with industry pivoting to technology advancement in sound capabilities

    high Ā· Alan documents gap explicitly and notes: 'as we get into the 1980s the technology advances they have all of this new ability to do recorded sound... right no they didn't do shit dude for 14 years'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Data East Guns N' Roses (1994) featured exclusive unreleased song 'Ain't Going Down' as a licensing innovation; represents unique approach to band pinball monetization through exclusive content

    medium Ā· Alan states the song 'only official release this game got was on the pinball machine which is crazy' and mentions instrumental versions complicated the claim

  • $

    market_signal: Shift from contemporary artists (1976-1980: Captain Fantastic, Kiss, Rolling Stones) to nostalgia-driven licensing (Elvis 2004 onward) reflects pinball market decline and aging demographic targeting

    high Ā· Alan explicitly states: '2004 was not a great time for pinball sales. And so I think they were like, okay, we need to kind of cash in on the wave of nostalgia hitting and the baby boomer money'

  • ?

    community_signal: Slash's involvement as co-designer and longtime pinball enthusiast on Data East Guns N' Roses represents early celebrity designer collaboration in band pinball market

    high Ā· Alan: 'Slash actually is a super big pinball head. He has been forever... He actually gets a co-design credit of this game' with confirmation from John Borg

  • ?

    product_strategy: Data East Guns N' Roses (1994) featured multiple innovations: exclusive song, stereo sound, and headphone jack in cabinetā€”positioning it as high-fidelity audio game within band pin category

    high Ā· Alan: 'It's got nine gnr tracks in total in stereo sound... first production game ever to come with a headphone jack in the cabinet on some of the production units'

    • 6:02
    But yeah, so that's clearly based. Again, that's Elton John, but he's portrayed in his role in Tommy the movie based on the song and concept album by The Who. you know you get pinball wizard the album's tommy the movies but it's called captive fantastic which is the name of one of elton john's albums yeah so we're kind of in muddy territory or muddy water right off the bat neither of those are really pin like our band or artists like their movie character pens yeah about music but then we get the nuge the nuge november 1978 by stern electronics we get nugent based off of just lovable character ted nugent lovable american guy ted nugent back then he used to play guitar folks cool um he didn't just shoot deer with a bow and arrow well he played a like a gun guitar on the back glass right well so he's always into guns okay i mean he's the motor city madman that's always what he was known as yeah by stern electronics this is a clear no doubt about it this is a music pin like and it's based on one artist and it's clearly ted nugent yep not a very good game i don't think it's not widely loved it's not great probably some fun to be had there but it's not one i go out of my way to play we love these old stern electronics but i think this is before their kind of pocket of great games yeah it's because they didn't have harry williams there yet and then we have kiss which is one that i think everyone will recognize the original 1979 Bally Kiss. Yep, it's a monster seller. I don't have the units in front of me, but I know there's a shit ton of these. And it's not considered the best Bally. But despite that, it holds a really high resale value. And I think a huge part of that is because of the theme. Kiss has an insanely devoted fan base for some reason. And also because of the incredible art package on it. It is a fun game. I like Kiss quite a bit, but it's not like an eight ball deluxe or something where you're like well this is up there it holds its value because of the gameplay kiss holds its value because of the theme and art because it's kiss and it's kevin o'connor did an amazing art package such a sick back just so good there was no music associated with kiss i would like this game a lot more yeah like if they were just like weird demon rock stars like metalopo whoa i can't remember that what's the clock death clock yeah yeah dude i would love a death clock man yeah now we're getting off the rails but okay and then after that we get a very notable release from bally same year as kiss and it's a game that happens to be on the floor at wedgehead right now it probably won't be by the time you're listening to this but it's dolly parton 1979 yeah dolly parton great game dolly parton was and remains to this day the only female musician with her own pinball machine that's insane it is insane absolutely insane didn't know for anybody listening to this women make a lot of music so it's pretty notable yeah like a lot that they've fucking tried to that they've done they've so successfully avoided putting any other women music pens into production it's genuinely crazy we'll get to a game later on that we talk about where there is another famous also country female musician that gets a song in a pinball machine oh yeah but this one's all based on dolly parton and it's an amazing game and it's man i could tell you having it on the floor at witch head i've heard this from other operators but like people gravitate towards that game because they're like oh my god dolly parton i have to play this game it's crazy we i was at wedge the day that i think it was i think that was the first day was on the floor and there's casuals in there that are like running to each other and be like oh my god they got a dolly parton pinball machine like that thing got more attention than a fucking brand new anything you could put on the floor yeah it was wild to see how many people were just excited to see a dolly parton game are taking pictures of it and shit And you're like, yeah, man, there's something to this. And part of that's that Dolly is like America's sweetheart. Everybody loves her. Everybody loves Dolly Parton. She's the fucking best. But it's also, it's just kind of, it's genuinely like a novelty to see something like that. Unfortunately, she's the only female artist that has a pinball machine. Crazy, man. Hopefully that's not the case for the future because we've been on the record on this podcast. I know Alex has listened to a lot more Taylor Swift than I have. I've listened to almost none of it, but we are both on the record as being like, dude, make a Taylor Swift pin and stop fucking around. Quit fucking around. Give us a Taylor Swift pin. Easy money. Because that would be like Dolly Parton, dude. It's just like setting some shit on fire. The cash box would be overflowing for these games on location. It would be. We said this in our Q&A episode, and just to reiterate it, a Taylor Swift pin would be the single. like no other single license could make more of a positive impact to the hobby i book you genuinely believe than a taylor swift pen i think that would get more new blood into the hobby than any single license you could procure please for the love of god somebody make this somehow make those numbers work and i know they probably i mean it's a matter of cost and everything but uh i know there's got to be a way to make that work there has to be a way and the last game we have in this first of the early band pins may 1980 also by bally it's the rolling stones by a little band called the rolling stones which also has a great early back glass by friend of the show and former guest of the show greg fraris oh i didn't realize there's a fraris yeah that's a fraris package damn he's got quite the uh mcjagger on there he does that game's kind of fun though it's got weird shit going on it's got those little like wiggle posts they're like standard posts that show no indication that you should be hitting them but they move they register hits that's an interesting game yeah and it plays okay so we're going to talk about these games they obviously at this era i shouldn't say obviously but during this era they couldn't have actual recordings of the songs the their technology was not there yet it just didn't have the memory to hold sound like that yeah coming up with like in 1980 was the last one here and it's like they really just only have like a small range of noise they can make. It is interesting, though, because Rolling Stones plays a little bit of satisfaction. Yeah, it gives a little kind of MIDI version. Yeah, boop, boop, boop, or whatever. I think Ted Nugent, you might hear a little bit of maybe Stranglehold or Cat Scratch Fever or something there's some kind of dolly parton doesn't play any of her music or doesn't even attempt to like recreate it with the primitive sounds um but it's like basically like the art packages letting you know it's theirs there's no modes there's no rules in that way it's just targets and lanes and kind of spinners and stuff of the era so it's like it's very surface level the band pins at this point are very surface level yep they're a band but then as we get into the 1980s the technology advances they have all of this new ability to do recorded sound we got gorgar with speech we got things actually playing tunes surely they would capitalize on this look at the past success of these licensed pens and do some big licensed artists right no they didn't do shit dude for 14 years we didn't get another licensed music pen all we had at best i was thinking about this and gottlieb was up to their their fucking 1980s shenanigans of just doing knockoff shit which i like how this era of gottlieb premieres plays honestly me and alan kind of always gravitate towards these yeah these are fun they're kind of underdog games a lot of them get shit on they've got questionable art they've usually got weird layouts from john norris or trudeau but they're fun they're it's notable to me that in this the 1980s they made three different just generic music themed pens yes which there were a lot of generic music pinned their music themed pens in the em era yes there weren't a lot no one else was doing this i guess there's a couple but they're got leave they did uh 1982 punk which was just punk themed and had like a a punk holding the guitar on it a very cool looking game 1985 a game near and dear to my heart because i have one sitting here it leaves rock rock has a female lead singer it does yeah so they're the second game with the yeah nailed it and also rock is interesting because if anybody's ever gotten into pinball and they talk about a music pen in like they're you know you're sitting there drinking with your buddies and you're like you know what'd be cool is you should make it so like the parts of the song come in as you complete objectives they did that in rock in 1985 and it fucking sucks because you just hear the same bass line over and over and over because your progress restarts every ball so if you've ever had that idea and i did too i remember very clearly being like oh that'd be cool if it was like a guitar hero pin and like when you're making shots the music would start up like when you're playing guitar hero it doesn't really work that well in pinball yeah it's don't do it there's a reason they don't do that and then after rock they did another generic music pin with uh 1987's heavy metal meltdown which yeah dan langlois game yeah if if you own a rock everyone thinks you own a heavy metal meltdown because these generic themes just kind of mix up with each other right and that's heavy metal meltdown is a bally it's not a got leap yeah my bad yeah i just want to clarify before we get the emails here jesus yeah 1982's punk and 1985's rock are both got leaves yeah heavy metal meltdown definitely is it's a bally and it's a Dan Langlois game, but also very funny. And like Alex was saying, it was 14 years between Rolling Stones and the next game. We're calling this the middle period of band pins, and there's really only two of them. But we're talking about the 90s here, and they both happened in 1994, and the first one was The Who's Tommy. So here we are digging back into this well. Everyone's heard the fucking song Pinball Wizard, right? Yeah, they're like, hey, there's a song about pinball. we should probably make another pinball machine about the song about pinball it still happens to this day too man you tell anyone in your life that you're into pinball and they're like oh like that song pinball wizard huh like yeah yeah but this game was actually it was made by data east but it was based off the broadway adaptation and not off the who's seminal 1969 rock opera concert album or the original 1975 movie based upon the same album it's based on the broadway production of those two things it's generally considered a pretty damn good game better than most data east games it's got the cool little like flip out fan that blocks the flippers yeah it's got some really cool mechs it's got a really cool topper it's cool it's a cool game but it's it's definitely not the versions of the songs that any fan of the band actually wants to hear it's the broadway version yeah so it's it doesn't really count as a band it has it says the who's on there and it says tommy musical pan it's there but you can tell this is like they got the license but they didn get the license that people wanted ever since i was a young boy i played the super ball go down the right time up the want it
    17:42
    The game's still really good. It features Lyman Sheets as one of the programmers that worked on this game during a short stint at Data East, amongst others. I think it's a super fun game, but yeah, it's not truly there yet. So I think the first game is the next game that we're going to talk about in June 1994, and it's Data East Guns N' Roses, and I think that this is the first game that feels like what we think of as... As a music pan. A music pan. It's the theme is Guns N' Roses, the band. Slash actually is a super big pinball head. He has been forever. He's actually probably the coolest guy that's into pinball ever. Right. Like the biggest celebrity, the coolest celebrity that's ever been into pinball. He actually gets a co-design credit of this game. And the game features a special never before released GNR song called Ain't Going Down.
    18:47
    yeah that's crazy to me that they put an actual exclusive song on this i looked into that just today because i was like that can't be right and like there's an instrumental version that got an album release and there's like something else but the only actual official release this game got was on the pinball machine which is crazy sorry the song got yeah and it's got nine gnr tracks in total in stereo sound sound yeah because it's a daddy east it's a daddy east dude yeah baby they got the stereo sound on there And it was the first production game ever to come with a headphone jack in the cabinet on some of the production units. That's cool. Not every game came off the factory with it, but John Borg, the designer, did confirm that a lot of these games came with headphone jacks from the factory, which is pretty cool. Which is, I think, what a lot of people complain doesn't happen on modern pens, although Jersey Jack does it. Yeah, JJP does it. Yep. Although now nobody uses an audio jack anymore. JJP has gone to having Bluetooth receivers in them. I've never tried to make it work, but I know it can happen. It's interesting. Slash also, he later did some custom music for the Sega pen Viper Night Driving in 1998. That's a wasted theme there. I love Dodge Vipers. Do not love that game. If someone wants to do a Die on this Hell episode about Sega Night Driving or Viper Night Driving, maybe, I don't know. That one hurts me too much. What are your feelings on Data East Guns and Roses? I think that game's actually pretty fun. It's got a lot of shit going on. I think it's hilarious that they made the ramps, the G and R letters. Yeah. It's just fucking so sick. And it's like, it's a wide body and it's got the double plunger, launch lane and everything. It's got a lot of shit going on. I've never played it that much, but I do think it's fun. I think it's fun too. Much like a lot of Data East. I think it's like, there's a lot going on there and it's fun. I really like, it's Marcus Rothkrantz did the art package on it. And he did a lot of those Daddy Use Art Packages, which a lot of people will kind of shit on. But that art package on that game is fucking good. Like, it looks like Guns N' Roses. It looks like the 90s. It looks like... It feels very appropriate. It's just... It's very good. So, you said in this middle period band pins, there's just these two. But there was almost a third. Okay, now you're talking about the unreleased. so our boys over at gottlieb that had enough of making generic pens that alex would make fun out of 30 years later on a podcast and they went for the big dogs and they got them they got brooks and done both of them not just brook not just done they got them both they designed the whole fucking game and then the company went out of business before they could make it it's very tragic this is probably the game that could have saved got leap in most likely pinball as we know it but we don't live in that world we have never got our books and done it is insane so their one white wood was created and then they did a run of play fields but none of those made it into a game they had just kind of like parts they had ordered and the whole thing got shut down they sold off all the got leap assets when got leap got liquidated some people actually managed to track down everything individually and built one with one of the actual printed play fields so there's a playable completed brooks and dunn out there the guy's names are on pin side if anyone's curious you can look it up they did this in 2017 so it was like 20 years after this shit happened they tracked everything down and actually put one together and it's playable which is i would love to play this it's probably not i it just flips right like i can't imagine there's any code in it It's an AMD game, so I think there's some baseline code in there, but I don't know how much. I didn't look up his video. I was just very impressed that someone actually managed to make that happen. I think it's hilarious that Gottlieb was like, this is Brooks and Dunn. We're going to do it. Brooks and Dunn were hot in the mid-'90s, though.
    22:58
    My Maria, don't you know I've come a long, long way? I've been longing to see her When she's around She takes my blues away Sweet Maria It's not surprising because Gottlieb didn't fuck around with lame licenses. They only went for the big dogs when they were in their premiere DMD days. They genuinely got good licenses. Like Kevin Costner's Waterworld. They didn't know that movie was going to be bad. That movie was huge budget. Yeah. So it's like they really were going after big stuff. And it is funny to me that this, unfortunately, never made it to light because we could have had one more music.
    23:44
    Well, but more common in the late 80s and the late 90s, companies from Bally to Williams to Data East or Sega would license individual songs for some of their games. So I have some of the instances. This is not a complete list because I didn't want to spend all day doing this. Some instances of licensed music tracks in pinball machines during this time, but they're not banned as the theme. The first one that jumps out from this time period is Party Animal 1987 because they got like a jukebox feature, Dennis Nordman game. It's got like a MIDI version of Louie Louie, tequila, satisfaction and shout, like party songs, right? Like it's doing like these like goofy little renditions of those songs.
    24:34
    Then we have Secret Service, a year later by Data East, and it has tracks, basically all spy-themed tracks. So it's got the Mission Impossible theme, it's got Secret Agent Man, it's got The Spy That Loved Me, and it's got the theme from the TV show Get Smart.
    25:04
    we talked about this next one on the show before we did die in this hill on lethal weapon 3 this is funny because daddy east did this a few times and even sega in 1992 they let you choose when you plunge the ball between the movie theme song, which, who cares? Nobody's playing that. Boo. Lame. But they also license two different songs that you can choose to listen to as you play the game. And the first one is ZZ Top's Sharp Dressed Man.
    25:59
    Very cool. And CNC Music Factory's Everybody Dance Now. Even cooler. You know, just the same two songs, clearly.
    26:39
    I'm assuming both of these are on... I'm hoping they're both on the soundtrack to Lethal Weapon 3. Otherwise, I have no idea why these are... You don't know the Lethal Weapon 3 soundtrack? I'd have to figure it out. Yeah, what's interesting is High Speed 2, The Getaway, more famously featured as EZ Top, LaGrange, as the main soundtrack. You hear that song a lot when you play Getaway.
    27:23
    So ZZ Top was featured in two separate games from two separate manufacturers. in the same year. Isn't that weird? I like, you're like, I guess it's not that surprising, but you're like, no, there really weren't that many licensed songs in Pitbull Machines. So that's notable. It's very notable. I'd love to hear the story about that. Why they ended up on two games in the same year for different companies. Yeah. Did they just go to some licensing show? Maybe, you know, like it's a weird one. It's a weird one. I love ZZ Top. They're one of my favorite bands. So it's like, if we're going to get one more old man, ZZ Top is one of your favorite fans. Hell yeah, dude. ZZ Top fucking rips. Dude, ZZ Top rips. I would never have guessed that. I'm not taking any slander about ZZ Top. ZZ Top fucking rips, dude. I don't got anything to bad to say. I'm just surprised. I'm saying if we're going to get another old man fan pin, give us ZZ Top. Okay, that's one thing I've been saying since Steve Ritchie went to JJP.
    28:21
    ZZ Top with Ritchie as like a getaway three would be fucking cool. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Just be like, hey, yeah, it's just the third in the season. It's Getaway 3, but it's with the soundtrack of ZZ Top. They need to complete the Richie, because I was also saying when he went there, they should really get the license to Terminator 1 and complete the trilogy, because they could do a fucking kick-ass Terminator 1 game. Anyway, JJP, no one's probably listening, but if you are, you know what you got to do. ZZ Top. Next game, we got Maverick, Data East, features the number one hit song by Cliff Black. Data East. That's a Sega, buddy. It's got a big Sega screen. Oh, yeah. OK. Yeah. This is right after the transition. Right after transition features the number one hit song by Clint Black. A good run of bad luck. So, yeah, which is created, which is a song from the soundtrack of Maverick.
    29:24
    Yeah, and you're going to see a lot of country music in these. It's interesting. It kind of speaks to where these pins were going at the time. Yeah, the next game is Red and Ted's Roadshow, also in 1994. This one by Williams. This is a Pat Lawler game. Unofficial sequel to Funhouse. Features two heads, Red and Ted, and Carlene Carter's song, Every Little Thing.
    29:54
    She's also the voice actress for the red character. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Does it have like a billboard for her on the back glass? Yeah. Interesting. And then the last, my personal favorite of all of this is Mary Shelley's Frankenstein from sega 1995 and very opposite of the vibe of the movie it gives you the option to play the edgar winter group song frankenstein which fucking so fucking good dude dude that is like one of the best instrumental rock songs ever it's so you told me that once when we're you're like oh you gotta play mary shelley's like that game's actually good in you and you mentioned the song and i was like that can't be right it can't be the Frankenstein song I'm thinking of. And you're like, no, it is. They did it. Gary Stern did it. And now he's done it again with Stern Godzilla. And that's why he put in that blue oyster cold Godzilla in the Godzilla machine. We just need a big song to go in the game. I do want to say that this is sort of fallen by the wayside other than Godzilla, which we got. I love this. This is honestly what I wish we got more of again in the modern era. It's like, yeah, license a song or two for the game don't hitch your entire wagon i don't want the whole theme to be a band or a musician i would much rather be give me a great song and pair it with a different theme yeah that and we'll get to our overall opinions of you know kind of band pins in general but i'm sort of spoiler alert here this is called foreshadowing my further opinions at the end of this episode but that's kind of i like that i miss that from that kind of middle period of band pins yeah it's just kind of fun And then we got now we're bringing us into the modern era band pins. Although this is sort of the original. This is a throwback. In 2004, Elvis gets released by Stern Pinball, and it's the first modern era band pin. It's also interesting as this marks the beginning of choosing a band or musician from a generation or two earlier. Yeah, trying to cash in on nostalgia instead of riding a current wave. And that's what's weird is when we look back at the beginning period and the middle period is all those bands were current massive artists. Contemporaries, yeah. Contemporaries. And now we will never get a contemporary artist again. Yeah. And you know 2004 was not a great time for pinball sales. And so I think they were like, okay, we need to kind of cash in on the wave of nostalgia hitting and the baby boomer money and everything. And so it's like going back to Elvis. It was also funny. I think it's when they're promoting this game with Steve Ritchie's return to pinball design. And they were like touting it as like the king is back. That was the sales line for it. Yeah. King being Elvis and also the king being Steve. Just good. That's some good marketing. Yeah. I think Steve had just done Terminator 3 right before this. Oh, OK. But I mean, he was he was still newly back. He's still back. I mean, he's been back, but he's but he's still back. Well, he was kind of he'll be back for Terminator 3 and now he's back. Yeah.
    33:23
    but then the next game in 2011 so they so in 2004 they really sell this to i guess uh it must not have done as great as they wanted response that game's loaded with shit it is loaded with shit fun game honestly actually is pretty fun it's wonky i don't know it that well it doesn't feel like a steve richie no it's it's i mean it's because it's like they just jammed so much shit in there it got very flowy right like it's yeah like i think like no fear is like a steve richie game because you're like well there's really not much in there yeah nothing there's nothing in there so it hardly slows the ball down yeah and then you go to like Elvis and you're like there's a lot in there in that just kind of the opposite of a Richie game but then in 2011 Stern Pinball releases the Rolling Stones oh they got the the big band that everyone loves they're trying to cash in on that you know Baby Boomer nostalgia again I'm sure they made they put they pulled all the stops out they've made a really great game for the rolling stones right ellen this is an atrociously bad game this is a bad game it's deep at the bottom of the list of the worst games of all time on the pin side top 100 list it's a game i remember playing new i remember when this game came out it the second rolling stones theme i think this is a band too that if they wouldn have done this game in 2011 and it wouldn have been so laughably bad this would be a game that Stern would be making now Yeah Like they would do this again and it be a lot better Yeah. But... It's kind of insulated. It's like you kind of... Yeah, I don't think they can do it now. You don't want to go back to this one. They might eventually or maybe soon. Maybe. I could see them doing another Rolling Stones because if the relationship is there with the licensor and everything, I could see it happening because people just kind of forget this one exists, which they probably should. anyone listening if you wanted to defend charles does yeah the rolling stones by stern you got to come on the show and defend it yourself because this is a game that that you're going to take a lot of fucking arrows on yeah but after that so that was 2011 and this is one of the worst like it's it's really bad utilization of the theme it's really poorly executed it's got really bad looking are the game itself is not good and so you'd think maybe after that they they'd shy away from rock bands they'd maybe be like hey that's not going to be good what i think happened is they decided to double down in the 2010s here and because 2011 we get rolling stones but then 2012 the year later i think these games were already in production so whether or not rolling stones did bad the next one coming out was acdc no matter what yep and this is the game that changed everything dude the difference in quality going from rolling stones to acdc being one year apart is insane it is insane i mean when this game it's just like it sold well it was received well and it was a game that stern would rerun multiple times there's like five different versions because there's like the le the premium and the standard and then there's like the lucy there's like all the the black the back and black version there's so many fucking versions of this game they just kept running it because it kept selling because it kept selling and you would see it around and more so than even selling it was a game that i remember being in pinball at this time and when this game came out people were like fuck yes dude it has been a decade since we got a great game like that was the feeling amongst pinheads was like we hadn't had a great game since lord of the rings yeah you know it it felt like it had been a long time like there's a lot of games that you and I like in that yes in between era but there's not a lot that are highly regarded no between like a Lord of the Rings and Simpsons era stern and this one yeah there was a little bit of a dead zone although Iron Man's my favorite stone game of all time and that came out in between fucking rips there's like a lot of games in there that I actually like but they're very bare bones whereas like ACDC is a big license it's executed very well they didn't like they didn't hold anything back yeah it is so good it's got the taco bell on it yeah and then the next year we get 2013 we get metallica and which was just remastered in 2024 yeah you said acdc is the one that kind of changed everything because of the success metallica is the game that people always point to for the pivot in art direction and going back to hand-drawn art because metallica they for anybody that doesn't know um who's the dude from italica i'm blanking well which one the main guy the main the singer yeah yeah james yeah is james hetfield i think lars ulrich is the drummer is who which one's actually in a pinball though because they kind of are they kind of all i think they all kind of are but i believe lars had a reskinned earth shaker to be metallica he paid somebody to do it and do art yeah he paid dirty donnie to do it yeah and so there was an artist that they were friends with. Apparently they had a falling out. That's what I heard through the grapevine, which is why the art's not on the new game. But at the time, this sort of blew the doors open. Dirty Donnie has a very unique art style. I wouldn't say it's necessarily my favorite art style. You don't like little dudes?
    38:32
    They're just little dudes, man. They're just hanging out. They're just little guys. It's funny because the first time I saw Metallica, I don't know much about Metallica. I don't mind Metallica music at all. I actually like it quite a bit, but I don't go out of my way to listen to Metallica. And I saw the game and I was like, well, these little dudes have to just be from like an album. Like I'd like these have to be from something. And then one day I was playing with my buddy that likes Metallica quite a bit. And he was just like, where the fuck did they get these little guys? Like, what is this art? What is going on here? And I was like, oh, is this not a Metallica thing? And he's like, no, man, this is just like a thing. Well, it is because they requested that the artists that they wanted to do the art for it. Dirty Donnie, you know, and that's why it came out that way. But it also marks. They look like, see, to me, as someone that doesn't know Metallica, I'm like, they look like Metallica-like art. Well, it is Metallica art because Metallica chose it, just like they chose all their art, you know? So it is canon now. Like, they chose it. So this game was also programmed by Lyman Sheets, the greatest pinball programmer of all time. It's a fucking good game. This game has been run so many times by Stern. They even remastered it, like I said. We have one on the floor at Wedget now. basically these two games back to back acdc and metallica are the reason why we get so many fucking band pins now yep but these are like the creme de la creme these are like big great ones they're big hits they're good games a lot of people like them i like both of these games to some degree i don't i don't love acdc as much as other people do but apparently you guys all suck at it because i got the high score on it i wedged head so i love acdc i love acdc the pin i don't love acd to the band but uh yeah these were both genuinely good widely loved games and so if you're ever like i'm sick of old man games it's because of these two yeah they're too fucking good and the next game we got kiss so this is going back to the well again yeah they know when they saw us else remaking another kiss game uh this is designed by john borg john borg did the data East Guns Roses are the sort of first like true band pin with actual songs and modes and stuff like that. Based on nothing but the band. So he's back doing Kiss this time and now he subsequently, as we'll go through all these next band pins, he's done more band pins than any other designer. Which I don't really think about because he does so many games. He's done so many games in between. But like you start looking at the list, you're like, oh yeah, he's done a shitload of band themes. He's done more basketball games than any other designer too. what he's done nba and space jam i guess that's true he was on the teams for yeah yeah you know like the man just made a lot of games he's made a lot of games that's true and then afterwards you get aerosmith in 2017 by stern another john boar game and this is the first spike to band pin so the first game with an lcd screen lcd so they roll you know they're bumping up to the budget everything's going up these band pins are selling like crazy they got their fancy new screen they're gonna do good with that screen right alan they're gonna put cool shit on that screen like they got videos of steven tyler on american idol or something at least right they're not gonna recycle assets from like a mobile game are they they're not gonna have like they're not gonna have just kind of like a little like thrusting 2d animated steven tyler on the screen the whole time the animations in that thing are fucking off-putting it's incredible i love i actually like this game quite a bit me and alan both have a soft spot for aerosmith and i don't know what the fuck they were thinking using that to launch the new spike 2 it did not sell anybody on it i guess they had batman 66 yeah batman 66 was the first game with it uh but this is what the second game first cornerstone because batman 66 didn't have a pro and you're just like this is what you're selling like an operator sees that and you're like uh okay like uh i don't want to pay more for that this also features dirty donnie art which i think is it's very interesting paired with aerosmith because i don't know how they agree to this but it's very purple and like alex said i hate aerosmith the band like hate aerosmith the band damn i cannot stand aerosmith you're kind of a zz top guy i'm a zz top man but this game is pretty fucking fun and alex and i get roasted whenever we talk about how how we actually like this game because we're both like you're like it's pretty fun guys remember when we traveled down to eugene and we stopped in that arcade yeah and you and i they had like they had like 25 pins mostly sterns and jjps and you and i just played the shit out of aerosmith well once we realized because it's got one of those beautiful mechanics where you can keep building you can just keep locking balls or you can cash in venom has a similar one i'm a sucker for that shit because it's just like oh if i realize there's a seven ball multi-ball or whatever it is i think it's six on aerosmith it's like oh there's a six ball multi-ball i'm not gonna be a little bitch and take a two or three ball multi-ball no only playing that game to get a six ball multi-ball i don't care if i squander it i don't care about anything other than getting that that kind of simple mechanic really works well for my fucking monkey brain playing pinball i just love trying to do one thing it's also got just an awesome toy with the jack-in-the-box the jackie which is like you throw up like it launches balls up and into a crate a crate like to lock balls and that is it's kind of like a modified version of the chest that borg used in stern's indiana jones yep but it's like physically it's loading them in a much cooler way than that chest and then it pushes them all out at once so if you lock all six it's six just dumping it's great pretty awesome i will say this is maybe the most center of center ramp i know you love this and it's a good game so that really throws my center ramp uh kiss i'm not as sold on kiss i'd play some kiss if you put that as the center ramp that's a pretty fun game yo it's i'm not arguing the center ramp okay i'm just arguing it's a good game yeah but it is pretty fun so maybe borg's the exception of the rule on the center ramp thing maybe i just need to go back to the drawing board and try to identify why some center ramps suck but uh yeah aerosmith fun game definitely underrated the one thing is they didn't sell many of them so now that it's out of production it's expensive i was always like oh this would be a fun one to pick up cheap because it's like it's a dog people hate it no it's expensive yeah fucking expensive i don't know if aerosmith fans just bought them all or what or if other people realized they're fun they just made just few enough of them to hold their value yeah so fun game after that though we got a monster it is the first game from a widely loved designer it was something that he perfected with infinite time as a homebrew and i think that uh effort comes through in the design because it feels like a very very polished unique cool layout and it has a fucking sick band attached to it what is it alan iron maiden 2018 by stern's keith ellen's first game originally based on archer the cult hit adult cartoon on fx which i was a big fan of i love iron maiden the band they're one of my favorite bands it's got fucking good art is it a zombie yeti package zombie yeti it's good i like the art package on this a lot i'm not i'm not an iron maiden guy at all really and i like the art package on this thing and here's the thing it's like not only is it a great layout from a guy that now everyone adores he's like the new king of pinball design keith elwynn but i think they really handle the band theme pin as well as anyone can there's not just pictures of old members of iron main looking old on the screen or on the playfield or on the back glass they're using the imagery of the band and their iconic album covers and merch designs and their character eddie and it's awesome and it tells a story there's a whole other story based on the different eddies and it's based on a comic book series based upon iron maiden and the eddies and all that stuff man as an iron maiden fan there are obviously some deep cut tracks that i wish were there but That's only because I'm a super fan. The songs they chose are the right songs. Yeah. They gave you exactly what you wanted. It's one of those ones where it's like this thing fucking hits. It checks every box. And there's so many people out there that when this game came out, they love how much this game plays. They love the layout. They love the rule set. They love the polish of it. They even love the art. They just hate the music, which is, you know, like Iron Maiden's not for everyone. And that's the thing with band pins. And we'll kind of, once we get to the end of this, we'll draw our own conclusions. But I do think it's notable with Maiden because the reason I think that game works so well as a pinball machine is because Iron Maiden has such sick visuals, strong visuals that are unique to the band associated with them that are cohesive across a lot of their like albums. Yeah. As far as I know, I'm not really a fan. There's a casual fan or whatever. And so it's like it immediately is Iron Maiden, but it's not like you said, it's not just pictures of the guys. Whereas something like Aerosmith, what's the look of Aerosmith? What do you associate for visuals with Aerosmith? You think of the music video where he's got his daughter making out with somebody, right? You think of Steven Tyler on American Idol wearing a fucking bunch of headbands and necklaces. And the next thing I associate with Aerosmith is, isn't there a sample of an Eminem song? And you're like, well, now I'm just going way off track. I'm just thinking of Steven Tyler marrying underage girls so he could live with them. Like, nothing good. And that's the thing. When you're making a pin, you're like, well, you have to have something to draw from. Like, the Aerosmith, it's like, well, there's this big jack-in-the-box. What the fuck does a jack-in-the-box have to do with Aerosmith? Yeah, but at least they did. At least they put that in. Oh, yeah, because what else could it be? That's why. Well, they have an album called, like, Toys in the Attic or something. It's got, like, a jack-in-the-box. Sounds like you know a little bit more about Aerosmith than I do. I hate Aerosmith. but all i'm saying is some bands work better as just a band theme the reason you can have an iron maiden and just do it as iron maiden is because they have such good visuals and like characters to pull from yeah not every band can do that and we'll kind of talk about that in a little bit yeah we also get the beatles in 2018 george gomez kind of re-invert reimagined the the classic stern electronics game sea witch it's a stupid expensive but awesome game not really my favorite Beatles era. Yeah, this is the hard part for me with Beatles is that I actually like later Beatles quite a bit. Yeah, me too. But 64 Beatles, which is what this is, this is like the touring Beatlemania Beatles era. Yeah, like I want to hold your hand, Beatles. I don't even hate all of that, but it's like there's only a few songs in the game. This was a very famously expensive license, difficult licensor to work with. That's why it's all locked in. None of this was done by Stern's design. It's like, this is what you're going to get for a Beatles game where you're not getting a Beatles game at all from what I gather it's just not the Beatles I love but I do like this game quite a bit yeah the game's great then we also get Primus in 2018 by Stern it's another reskin throwback of whoa Nelly yeah it's uh that's a notable one because this is one of their contracted games so Primus actually or the license holder for Primus whatever fucking Primus's agents approach Stern to get a pinball machine made for Primus rather than the normal way around yeah which they've only done that a few times stern still offers that to people but there's not been that many there's been like heavy metal or sorry yeah yeah heavy metal and primus and the supreme pin just a handful of people that have actually done that and then in 2020 we get led zeppelin by stern this is steve richie's last game for the company very poorly received based upon one of the most requested band licenses of all time and water boy has famously said that he owes his marriage to this pain you said that on the show one of our early episodes i remember yeah i remember yeah because i've got a i got so my wedding reception was held at wedgehead and we've got some wedding pictures taken in front of fled zeppelin they had a premium there which is the one with the zeppelin exploding on it i can't remember what album art that is it's a very good looking game i actually do like this game but part of that might be because of that association for me it was a good time in your life it's funny because this is one of those ones where you're like all all the pieces are there 2020 sterns on a high they've been cranking out lots of hit games led zeppelin's like the hottest the biggest like dad rock band license or one of the white whale it's the it's the game that everyone wanted yeah it was basically for a long time it was beatles led zeppelin pink floyd those are the dad rock bands that needed to get done they had done beetles everyone's like boo we don't want that the way you did it and then they did led zeppelin and it's a cornerstone and it's steve richie and they've got fucking um oh fuck i'm blanking on his name the the rules does that tim saxton sex and yeah this thing had all of the pieces there to be a smash and you suffer from that same thing like aerosmith where there's not a unique look associated with led zeppelin there's no like storyline here the other than the album covers which are iconic but yeah but those album covers they iconic but they disjointed yeah and that i think really tough as a cohesive package to do that being said people just didn like this thing because i think it just didn have enough like shit going on for your average person yeah i don know i genuinely i don know why people hate this game so much i think it's one of those things where it's a double-edged sword when you get your dream theme because the dream theme everyone is super hyper critical of it when it doesn't yeah land you know they they always think you could have done so much more i would have done this or i would have done that i think that game suffers from it i always wanted like yeah i always wanted like a led zeppelin that leaned into like the fantasy like fucking lord of the rings reference led zeppelin shit here's the coolest game it'd be cool for them to make like a lord of the rings or a token type game and then just have led zeppelin music led zeppelin music would be sick yeah like the battle of evermore yeah it'd be fucking sick but then we get 2020 we get a new pinball manufacturer throws their hat into the ring you're cashing in cashing in it's jersey jack pinballs guns and roses so again another band gets their second pinball machine it's supposedly their best-selling game of all time but it's honestly i'm gonna say this one of the worst games i've ever played i don't care for it either yeah yeah exactly i was hoping you were gonna fight me on that i was hoping you were gonna say some shit i hate i don't like this game i can't i don't No, I don't care for it. The first time I played it, I played it for 40 minutes, got the GC, wanted to die. I was playing it, and I got into a multiball. Every shot was lit, and it just said, shoot anything. And I was like, fuck this. This isn't pinball. Shoot anything? Fuck this. I'm not into this at all.
    53:48
    I'm sorry. It's not good. I don't like it. Lots of people like it. I do not. It sold well for them. that's great it's got one of the worst launch lanes of all time i just i've just there's so many individual things i could pick off that i don't want to just be mean to the game no i don't want to be mean either man some people like it and some people that like guns and roses yes this is the best game of all time it's a love letter to guns and roses fans very different from alan and i's usual taste in pinball machines it's very multi-ball heavy and very very like wide deep rules like there's just a lot of shit to know in it i don't think the theme does anything for either of us really like the music isn't something either of us gravitate towards so that's a tough sell you missed one on your list what i miss alice cooper by spooky pinball oh yeah alice cooper nightmare nightmare castle which i think is actually a pretty good execution of a theme because it has like its own little story it's not just alice cooper cool art cool looks cool like the castle and the guillotine thing and uh really cool i really i like the little spiral ball trails um it's got servos in it so you know the game so it'll never work yeah it doesn't work because spooky likes putting servos into pinball machines and god knows why they do that it's hard to see where the ball goes on that game but i actually i i do pretty fun i do kind of enjoy it when it's all working or they've disabled the servo the mechs that need them it's i i do kind of enjoy that thing um and i do think it's a good execution of the the theme you're right and then we get rush in 2022 by stern john borg again um and the music man's back the music man's back i will just say that i think a lot of why these companies do band pins is to bring new money into the hobby right and that's why they're leaning towards older buyers because they have the money Yeah. And I will say that when we got our rush in, this is the only time any pinball machine's been released that I get phone calls on the bar's telephone. And we I got emails from people asking, do you have rush pinball? Do you have rush pinball? And then when I said, yes, we got people that I've never seen before. And I don't know if I've really ever seen since, but they would come in and just session rush. and I'd look at them, they'd be double flipping, chimp flipping, like terrible pinball players, clearly not pinball people, but they're Rush fans, and it brought them in, it got them to play pinball, and I bet they, I know Stern has said they didn't expect this game to sell as well as it did, and, but I think it's like the Rush fan base supported, they found out about this game, and they supported it, so whatever like a regular pinhead has to say about it, like, man. I think it's a cool layout fun game yeah i kind of wish rosie would bring his back to wedge at some point i saw the same thing the guy i got my grand prix from he was very much like a classic pinball guy and he said the only game he's ever bought new was his rush le that he will never sell yep because he's a rush guy he's a rush guy and it's like that he broke the mold it's like he could you know he could have afforded other new games if he wants but he likes the classics and he likes rush so he got a rush le and it's never going anywhere and you're like that is why they made that game yep because the rush guys like that's the game and it is kind of cool that they made a fucking pinball machine for you know a canadian prog rock band like yeah it's kind like russia did sell a lot of albums yeah they're beyond just just some unknown canadian prog rock band kind of like it's like not one i would have ever expected yeah i want to be like oh yeah that's going to be one of the next five it's not like smart about what they did with that game is that There's a lot of people that don't like Rush the band, but the people that do like Rush, Rush is their favorite band. Yeah. You know. It's like you do have passionate fans. The people. Yeah, exactly. And then also in 2022, we get Queen by Pinball Brothers. Yeah. Another boutique company. Just they see the monster. You know, this is the formula. It was designed by Barry Osler, but not long before he passed away. And then in 2023, we get Foo Fighters by Stern. It's the first cornerstone game by Twitch streamer turned pinball designer Jack Danger. And this is probably the closest to a fresh band license that we're ever going to get. Fresh as in all of. Fresh as in most of their music came out in the 90s. And this game came out in the 2020s. Yes. So, you know, she's only 30 years old. They're still making music. But everyone was like, oh, yeah, we're getting there, right? Like, we're getting there. Like, we're getting bands from the 90s. Yeah, we're like, yeah, it's progress. It's going the right direction. This is another one that's executed very well, I think, because they gave it kind of like a story that's not just Foo Fighters. Because, again, Foo Fighters does not have strong visuals associated with them. They don't have some kind of, like, shtick. They don't have a gimmick or anything. I mean, they have very iconic music videos, very funny music videos. Yeah, but I'd say, like, more than anything, it's like just Dave Grohl. They're funny. They're self-deprecating. They're funny. So it'sā€” They leaned into the, like, the Foo, the UFO, alien fighters shit, and it's good. It's clear that the license or the band let Stern kind of create an original license IP and then use their music. And that's why I think that game. Obviously, I think Jack Danger did a great job on the general playfield layout as well. But I think the way that game really came together was that's the way you should do it. Kind of like Iron Maiden, this one. These are really good versions of this. That's how I like to see them done. And then we get Elton John in 2024 by Jersey Jack. I'm calling it 2024 because apparently it was announced at the end of 2023, but it's Steve Ritchie's first game for Jersey Jack. And honestly, I'm going to say this again, dude. It's the only tolerable JJP game for me. Like, this game is fun. Like, Elton John is fun. It's a Steve Ritchie. It's fast. It's got good flow. It's got good combos. It's got a little alligator wearing Elton John sunglasses and rocking out. It's like got a ramp ball return that doesn't feed to the flippers. I mean, it kind of does, but it like spits out on the place. Spits it out. It's a little bit dangerous. Yeah, it's got cool shit. I like it. I like this. I really like the piano lock with the, like, it's got like that little LED DMD on the front of the piano with the animations of the ball locking. There's some cute stuff on there. It's like, it's a good one where it's like they didn't let the, it's a good example of it's like, okay, there's lots of little moving shit, lots of little toys and stuff, but it doesn't ruin the Steve Richiness. It's not like an Elvis situation where it doesn't feel like a Steve game. It's like, no, this feels like a Richie game. It feels like a Richie game, and it's fun to play. I'll play it every time I see it. Yep. And then we got the license everyone was clamoring for, another boutique offering from Pinball Brothers this year or this past year. That's ABBA, the Swedish pop mega group, massive seller, not a theme I've ever seen a pinball fan actually want. Well, apparently, you know, they're a European company, Pinball Brothers, and ABBA is one of the biggest European bands ever. I think it's huge seller and it is interesting to see because they're not really what I'd call rock no they're pop yeah they're pop bands so it's interesting to see them go to like an actual pop group even though it is older yeah it's still from the 80s yeah it's it still feels still from the 70s and 80s I mean it's like okay at least we've moved out of dad rock into mom mom pop yeah it's still it's still pretty like it is interesting I haven't played it yet though I haven't seen one I haven't played it either I could have played it at expo but I wasn't going to wait and i wasn't going to spend any of my time over queen but i have played queen and i will say i'm not that excited for abba oh maybe some people like queen maybe someone could tell me but those flippers do not feel good yeah the flippers feel like fucking little tin cans they're super powerful and they've got nothing behind them it's weird yeah a little bit of both but now i think it's time for our final takeaways and thoughts about band pins because we're speaking about kind of all of them so far but i think the reason why they make them is i think these games sell pretty well to the home market the majority of games today are sold to home collectors anyway i mean if you're into pinball and you like said band and they make a pinball machine of that band then it's an automatic buy for you so it's like i think that's why manufacturers make them it's crazy because it's like i was talking about talking shit about queen and probably abba without having played it if pinball brothers announced like a daft punk pinball machine or something where i'm like well no one else is ever going to make this, I would probably buy one. Yeah. Because even knowing, yeah, I don't like how these things play, I'd be like, I want that. And it's like, that's the reason they do it right, is because people are passionate enough about the themes to put aside things and just buy the fucking game. Yeah. And so that's why these band themes are popular. I think it expands the buyer base, like I was saying, because the super fans of these bands might be buying their first pinball machines at all. Yeah. that's again why i think it can appeal to people more on location like you were seeing the rush fans come in to wedge or whatever i think it is more about appealing to new buyers than new location players but i do think that's like a strong argument and a lot of these guys it might be their first pinball machine but they might end up really enjoying it and then getting into pinball which means they'll buy more pinball machines yeah all the bands are old though because i think the average buyer is old like and they want to buy bands that they remember for their youth it's not an on location business anymore for the manufacturers it's more direct to consumer which is why we are stuck in the old man dad rock themes and why we don't branch out of that i think part of that is also a reflection of like the fact that america's moved away from like the well the world's moved away from like the monoculture stuff like bands now are not nearly as big as they were True. Because it's just like back in the day, you'd only hear like you fucking go your whole life. You only ever heard 12 bands. And now it's like you have so much music. There's so many sub genres and niches that it's like you can't really get those numbers like you can anymore. So I'll be curious as outside of Taylor Swift, outside of Taylor Swift in like the rare exceptions, which are all pop artists. yeah and so it's like that is part of why i'm like i think we someone needs to try to get a pop license i just don't know if it's ever going to happen because i think it's just too expensive for them to go after you'd have to have the right artist whose team sees the value in putting that game into bars yeah just sees it sees the value of the marketing yeah the marketing aspect of it that is the hard part because it's like that's what like i think like someone like slash understands because he likes pinball and he's like no there's value in being a band with a pinball machine it immediately makes you look cooler than the bands that don't have pinball it's an exclusive club i mean there's there's only like what less than 20 yeah bands that have pinball machines most bands there's a lot of bands that have two yeah it's you and primus dude exactly exclusive club that's funny because prime is probably the sickest band on here and i've never got a game and it's because they paid stern to make it some of the arguments are is like they aren't necessarily great for location play because music's so personal like we said if you hate a band we just talked about how like if you love a band automatic buy expands the market this and that but if you hate a band it takes a lot for you as a location player to want to sink your money into a game especially over and over again if you hate the music yeah man that's why i don't have any band pins at home i like a lot of bit like i really do like maiden but i'm like at home i'm not that big of a maiden fan i'm like i'd be hearing a lot of maiden yeah and so it's like they earn less on location because of that yeah and i also think like a music theme just kind of sucks as a story unless you do what they did with maiden or what they did with foo fighters but it's like otherwise it's like collect guitar picks and go on tour and like whatever like grab all the musicians yeah like it's just like it's not much of a theme and if the sound is turned down on location and you can't hear it then what is the theme like you're like what the fuck like that's how those old ones are that's how old kiss and dolly and everything at least those games are fucking cool looking you know and like and they fucking you're like i don't know they're like they're vintage and fucking cool you know yeah it is it's it's a tough sell and it's always a divisive thing i think like we talked about earlier it's strong feelings both directions which makes them kind of shitty for location but kind of good for selling to guys with money yeah and so you're like i can see why they do it but i can also just know i'm like we don't need necessarily more of them it's not i'm never like oh we really need another band pin because if they do another one it'll probably be pink floyd and i like pink floyd's music quite a bit so do i probably like i'm like i'm not is the pinball machine gonna be great just because i like pink floyd no probably not yeah i don't know exactly maybe it could be maybe it will be i don't know who knows if it's a board game it'll probably be good they'll never stop making them though i i just no just don't see them funny scene it's like after the success of stern seeing the boutiques be like oh we got to be doing band themes too and especially all the boutique manufacturers it's like they're selling even less to the location market they are selling almost 100 of their games it's like 95 of a boutique's company is going or boutique sale going home so it's like it makes sense to kind of do band pins at that point stern at least still makes games that get put on location yeah uh so they'll never go to only just a bunch of band pins like it seems like the pinball brothers have but yeah man i think that's i think that pretty much covers you don't want to talk about what bands you want to see as a pinball machine i already said it man it's like i want to see i want to go back to the time where we licensed songs to put in games like i would way rather have one more zz top yeah dude Well, because that's the thing is, like, I love the idea of, like, doing High Speed 3, but with a ZZ Top soundtrack. Like, fuck. That would be cool. Sign me up. Dude, and you could talk ZZ Top into doing that because, like, yeah, like, fast cars. Like, that's our shit, dude. Yeah, you'd be like, yeah, man. Build your own hot rod and then fucking race it. Like, that's Getaway 3. Like, let's fucking go, dude. High Speed 3, let's go. I feel like you could make something like that happen and execute it very well. Yeah, see, I'd be excited about that. I wouldn't be necessarily excited about ZZ Top, the band, as a pinball machine. Collect fucking beard oil. No, because I'll fucking just listen to the band.
    68:25
    That's always kind of the thing for me. It's like, the themes are weird, right? Because it's like, you can just watch the movie. You can just listen to the album. But you're like, I like it when they're executed well. That's always the hard part. Be careful what you wish for. Well, we're going to end this episode like we end every episode, which is a plea to go out and play some pinball near you. Use the pinball map. Go find a band pin and go and play it. We actually have a few band pins on the floor right now. We always do. We got Dolly. We got ACDC. We got the new Metallica. What else do we got? Is that it? I think that's it for right now. Yeah, that might be it. We got plenty more. Oh, I'm sure you got Sing Along. Yeah, it's Christmas caroling themed. Go out and play some pinball on location. And until next time, good luck. Don't suck.
    69:13
    And the lady knows it's understrung Strung