Episode 1044: "The Mystery Behind JJP's Avatar CE Playfields"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·20m 14s·analyzed·Jan 13, 2025

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Kaneda condemns JJP's Avatar CE playfield mystery and non-refundable deposits.

Summary

Kaneda criticizes Jersey Jack Pinball's handling of the Avatar Collector's Edition reveal and development, arguing that the company revealed an unfinalized UV playfield feature, took customer deposits, and has since gone silent on the final product appearance. He contrasts this with the industry standard set by Legends of Wrestlemania (Limited Edition) and calls for manufacturers to show final products before taking full payment, while also warning buyers about the secondary market collapse affecting premium limited editions.

Key Claims

Jersey Jack Pinball revealed the Avatar Collector's Edition in October 2023 with a heavily produced $100,000 video shot under controlled lighting conditions with added UV lighting to enhance colors.
high confidence · Kaneda, podcast host, describing the original reveal
The beta Avatar CE playfields were not finalized even at Pinball Expo in October, and Mark Seiden was not happy with how the playfields were printing at that time.
high confidence · Kaneda, describing media tour and Pinball Expo experience
Bader (not Miracle Playfields) is manufacturing the Avatar CE playfields, featuring UV ink in three colors (red, green, blue) while the Elite version only has blue ink.
high confidence · Kaneda announcing this as 'news' to audience ears
Jersey Jack Pinball did not show customers final versions of the CE playfields before or after Pinball Expo, and Mark Seiden is not visible promoting the game.
high confidence · Kaneda's observations and criticism
Venom Limited Edition is selling for around $8,000 (a $5,000 loss), X-Men Limited Edition is going for $9,000, and Stern's $13,000 Limited Editions are experiencing a 'crazy collapse'.
medium confidence · Kaneda citing secondary market pricing trends
Pulp Fiction Limited Edition customers have been waiting two years since reveal for delivery, experiencing a significant delay and bait-and-switch in management's communication.
high confidence · Kaneda and call-in segment with community member (Dominic)
Most Avatar CE deposit holders were required to make non-refundable deposits, and Kaneda believes customers could buy the game new for less money in six months by eating the deposit loss.
medium confidence · Kaneda's analysis of deposit structures and secondary market trends
Christopher Franchi announced on Kaneda's show that Beetlejuice, not Goonies, will be Spooky Pinball's next release after an 'even bigger title' comment.

Notable Quotes

“And how Legends of Wrestlemania (Limited Edition) is the bar that this hobby has set between those two entities?”
Kaneda @ early in episode — Establishes the standard for manufacturer-consumer respect that Kaneda uses to evaluate other companies
“It's been two years since the game was revealed. The hype around the game is absolutely gone. Like the excitement level around this game is absolutely gone.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Diagnoses the core problem with Pulp Fiction: lost momentum and community enthusiasm after extended delay
“I don't think in total this game will even sell 2,000 units. I really don't.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Prediction about Avatar's total sales performance, suggesting underperformance despite CE premium positioning
“They added additional UV lighting to make the colors pop on the CE playfield. Since then, this company has struggled to showcase how that feature will work in a normal environment, in a home environment.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Core criticism: the marquee feature of the CE cannot be demonstrated in realistic home settings
“I don't think customers should ever be unsure of what the final version of their game will be like when they asked to pay.”
Kaneda @ late-episode — Central thesis: manufacturers should finalize products before requesting final payment
“If you walk away from that deposit I guarantee you in just six months you be able to actually get the game for less money if you eat that deposit loss and then go get the game for it.”
Kaneda @ late-episode — Warns secondary market will undercut new box pricing due to broader market collapse
“Is it really that hard for someone over at Jersey Jack Pinball to grab a cell phone, turn a game on, you can shut the lights off, turn a game on, turn the phone towards the machine and let us see what it looks like.”
Kaneda @ end of episode — Specific, actionable request that highlights lack of transparency and minimal effort required from JJP

Entities

Kanedaperson Jersey Jack Pinballcompany Mark SeidenpersonJames Cameron's Avatar (Limited Edition)gamePulp Fictiongame Legends of Wrestlemania (Limited Edition)game

Signals

?
product_concern: Avatar CE's marquee UV playfield feature was not finalized or demonstrated in realistic home environments before customer deposits were collected. Playfields were still in beta at Pinball Expo in October despite original reveal in October 2023.
high · Kaneda states: 'the beta playfields were not final. They did not show us how it looked in a final CE version of the game. Then we get to Pinball Expo in October, still not final.'
$
market_signal: Premium limited editions experiencing significant depreciation: Venom LE ~$8,000 (≈$5,000 loss), X-Men LE ~$9,000, and broader 'crazy collapse' of Stern's $13,000 LE machines.
high · Kaneda cites: 'Venom Limited Edition sell for around $8,000 everybody, a $5,000 loss... X-Men Limited Edition, wow, already going in the $9,000 range.'
~
sentiment_shift: Pulp Fiction hype has evaporated after two-year delay from reveal to delivery. Kaneda describes excitement as 'absolutely gone' and predicts significant deposit walk-aways.
high · Kaneda states: 'It's been two years since the game was revealed. The hype around the game is absolutely gone. Like the excitement level around this game is absolutely gone.'
?
community_signal: Community frustration with non-refundable deposits that remove manufacturer incentive to finalize products before customer payment. Kaneda advocates for eliminating non-refundable deposits as structural reform.
high · Kaneda argues: 'I've always been against nonrefundable deposits. I think it takes away the onus and the responsibility from these companies to get it right.'
?

Topics

Manufacturer transparency and communication with customersprimaryNon-refundable deposits as a business practice and its impact on manufacturer accountabilityprimaryAvatar Collector's Edition playfield finalization and UV feature demonstrationprimarySecondary market depreciation of premium Limited Edition machinesprimaryPulp Fiction two-year delay and customer dissatisfactionprimaryIndustry standard for product reveals set by Legends of WrestlemaniasecondaryUpcoming game announcements (Beetlejuice, Goonies, Star Wars)secondaryQuality control and development issues in recent Stern releases (X-Men, King Kong)secondary

Sentiment

negative(-0.82)— Kaneda is deeply critical of Jersey Jack Pinball's handling of Avatar CE and the broader industry trend of non-refundable deposits and lack of transparency. He expresses frustration with manufacturer arrogance and customer mistreatment, while showing some optimism about upcoming competitive titles from Spooky. The tone is disappointed and urgent, positioning the episode as a public accountability moment.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.061

Welcome everybody to Kenaida's Pinball Podcast. I'm your host Kenaida. Happy Monday. Hopefully everybody enjoyed football with friends and family. Hopefully you played some pinball and hey everybody keep it friendly on the Kaneda chat. We had a boot Scotty out of there. He was threatening people. We come to Kaneda's Pinball Podcast to have fun with each other, to make fun of people losing three to five thousand dollars on LEs and CEs. We don't come to Kaneda's Pinball Podcast community to get into fist fights in the streets of Philadelphia. Scotty doesn't know how to really be respectful so he's gone. I want to talk about Out respect on this episode of Canadian Spinball Podcast and the respect between a manufacturer and consumers. And how low is the bar that this hobby has set between those two entities? And I think when you look at pinball and you look at the majority of the pinball companies that are successful, the formula and the respect between the company and the consumers is the way it should be. You reveal a game. You show everybody what's in What not to show when you are playing this game. G Via tell people how you want to keep people as well have constantly offloading from each game. YOu should have98money exercising at least 70% of your поехand tell yound about in the game, Just tell people why clear to order the game, is refundable not. This week's topic is Pulp Fiction LE. And these games have sort of led people to wonder whether or not they should still stay in on the game. Now, one of them is Pulp Fiction LE and I have friends hitting me up asking me, hey Chris, hey Kaneda. They either call me by one name or the other. They're asking me how much do I think it's worth? And it's a weird question, right? Because I'm almost like, well, what's it worth to you? Do you still want to take possession of Pulp Fiction LE? I think what's making people somewhat gun shy now is it's been two years since the game was revealed. The hype around the game is absolutely gone. Like the excitement level around this game is absolutely gone. And when you look at where everyone is excited right now, there's a lot of really exciting games about to come out in pinball. I think we heard from Christopher Franchi on our show this Saturday that the gun Goonies is not the next game from Spooky. He said it's going to be an even bigger title. And so that leads all of us to conclude it's going to be Beetlejuice first, then possibly the Goonies. So Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice coming out from Spooky Pinball. That is awesome. We've got Harry Potter. We've got King Kong. We've got Sonic the Hedgehog. We've got maybe Super Mario Brothers. We've got maybe a new Star Wars Pinball from Stern Pinball. Back to the Future is looming somewhere in the future. There's just a lot around the corner. And I think what's happening right now if you're an Ellie buyer of Pulp Fiction, you sort of are looking at the future and saying, well, if I'm going to spend $10,000 right now, should I put this machine into my home knowing, This is why I'm getting the question knowing that this game is probably not going to hold value, knowing that the game is not going to be hard to get, knowing that there's going to be a significant, and I mean this, a significant amount of people are going to walk away from their LE deposits of Pulp Fiction and not take ownership of the game. And look, when I say significant, I even mean just maybe 10%. it's me, Dominic. Stand by. I going to be honest with you I don like how this company treated each and every one of us I don like what they did I don like the bait and switch When I mean bait and switch it like you reveal the game you took all of our money and then you took two years to get it to us That bait and switch in my honest opinion I mean it You baited us with the game and they gave like a tentative like ETA and when we could expect the game and then they switched that up on everybody and I just don think it works All right so here my thing Here my advice to everybody in on a poll Fiction LE If you really want the game get the game You know the good news about Pulp Fiction LE it not it not You not going to lose to on this game like some of these other games right now We are seeing Venom LEs sell for around $8,000 everybody, a $5,000 loss. We're starting to see X-Men LEs, wow, already going in the $9,000 range. We're seeing a crazy collapse of these $13,000 Stern LEs. And look, I'm just going to say, ladies and gentlemen, if you're going in now on a $13,000 Dungeons & Dragons LE and they're still not sold out, you really have to have your head examined. I'm not saying don't get it, just don't get it now. You're still going to be able to get it new in box in just a few months once these other titles hit. Just wait. Just be a little patient and you will thank me. But I think people are going to move away from Pulp Fiction LEs. I think spots will be available. But yes, if you really want one, it's only what, like $9,500 or $9,700. They didn't overprice the game. I think if you want one, open one up. The thing is this. There's no mystery waiting for you with this LE version of the game. We've seen the I'm really excited to be back in these next few weeks. I'm looking forward to the last game of the season, the last game I've played in the last season. The game is called Aura. It's a game of two different versions of the game. It's been out for a while. We've seen all the gameplay. I think you should hop on and see if you haven't already. Like if you're in on a Pulp Fiction LE and you haven't played it by now, I think you should go play one first before you write a check for the LE version of the game. All right, but that's not the game that really has me sort of scratching my head right now. This week's topic is about the avatar collector's edition game. This game was revealed to the world in October of 2023. We got that beautifully polished 20 minute $100,000 video in which Jersey Jack Pinball unveiled this game. In the 19thこれは gaddy vas maskofהожалуйста. Most of the assets they used to sell this game and to hook people to order a $15000 machine was done under a controlled environment. They added additional UV lighting to make the colors pop on the CE playfield. Since then, this company has struggled to showcase how that feature will work in a normal environment, in a home environment, and even when they brought this game to Expo, you gotta remember, they had LE playfields inside CE cabinets, they brought in additional UV lighting over the machines, and they had to put pipe and draping around the machines to get that UV lighting. What's up, guys? I'm here to talk about the new release of the C.E. Games, the first of its kind, the C.E. Games. They are now on the line at Jersey Jack Pinball. They didn't really do much of a fanfare to announce that. They shared some stuff on social but nothing really major. As I talk more about this game, I think we're all going to come to the same conclusion. This company feels like they've already moved on from this game, right? It feels a little bit like Stern and X-Men right now. Doesn't it feel like Stern has just kinda moved on from X-Men? Like they realized the dam has too many leaks in it that we might as well just let it collapse? I know that Jack's not gonna want that to happen but it just feels like it, right? Like they're just gonna move on to D&D. D&D has all of this support in the software department and X-Men doesn't have much. You know what's funny about all of this? Is everybody thought that D&D was gonna be the filler game as we waited for King Kong. Now let's get into the action part. Now look at the Like and share for me. I could wait sooo long that the whole Blastline will be2000 Another interesting thing about this game is that it's mostly based on Avatar. But you know why? The sales are not there. I bet they have sold more CEs of Avatar than Ellie of Avatar. I don't think in total this game will even sell 2,000 units. I really don't. But look. If you ordered a CE you don't care about that. There was enough beautiful stuff happening in the CE version of the game that convinced you to go in on one. Now the major feature of the CE when you think about it the topper is beautiful but it not really the major differentiator The major differentiator other than the artwork and the armor the one you going to see the most the one you going to experience the most frequently is the playfield Now news to everybody ears was that Miracle Playfields is not making the CE Playfields It Bader who makes all those amazing playfields that go into spooky pinball machines So that was awesome Then they also did something This week's topic is the The UV ink on the Bader playfield on the CEs exclusively was gonna have three colors that lit up like a Christmas tree When that UV lighting hits and it was red green and blue the Ellie only has the blue ink Okay, so everyone's like alright awesome They show some of these features on that launch video and even when the media went on the tour Even when we went on the tour at Jersey Jack, I think it was like end of September The playfields, even though they already shot that video that got everybody excited about the game, the beta playfields were not final. They did not show us how it looked in a final CE version of the game. Then we get to Expo in October, still not final. And we know that Mark Seiden was not happy with the way the playfields were printing when Expo rolled around. And it just begs the question, you've got a game like this. It's in development for how many months? And before you finalized the UV playfield in the CE versions of the game, you are now revealing the game to the world, taking money on it. Now look, I personally think none of this should happen like this. Like you should finalize something as significant as this before you reveal the game. And if you can't make the feature work or it doesn't work that well, Then don't highlight it so much. Don't make it such a big part of the game's reveal video and also be honest with your customers about it. But man, once we started to see them bringing in extra UV lighting and even when we went on the media tour, they told us not to take any photographs of that playfield. And then Tom Capera walks in with one of those Magna flashlights, like the big flashlights you hold in your hand, a UV version of one. And it's like moving it up and down the playfield to show us all the three colors. But man, it's like Tom, nobody's going to have lighting that powerful when they have the game in normal use. Okay, so all that is like happened in the past. So here we are now. CEs are on the line. Games are going to Europe first. I'm sorry. I triggered some of you European guys by saying that's a practice that needs to stop. I really don't care about that that much. I'm going to give you a little bit of a preview of the final version of the playfields. Has Jersey Jack, knowing that they never showed you the final playfield, have they done a video going over what the final version of your CE will look like when you play it? Have they even confirmed? I know it's going to be Bader, but there's even speculation in the thread that they haven't even confirmed that it's a Bader playfield. Again, I don't think it's not going to be Bader, but the fact that your customers who are spending $15,000 on this product are still unsure of what's about to happen because you're not communicating to them. Why would you, if you're Jersey Jack and you've got the Well, let me tell you about these people. You're gonna die, already know this. These people have been the most eika of best-selling, hit Anyway, at least treat these avatar customers with enough respect to talk to them, to show them the final version of the playfield. You know, I don't see Mark Seiden anywhere promoting this game. It almost just feels like they've all given up on it, that he's off designing his next game. I don't like this. How can you have these games where you put all this effort into it and then the moment in which you're asking customers to send in their payments in full, because that's the other part. Most of you guys I mean this when I say this if you have a deposit down on an avatar CE your deposit was It nonrefundable Here what crazy If you walk away from that deposit I guarantee you in just six months you be able to actually get the game for less money if you eat that deposit lose and then go get the game for It going to happen people Just look at everything else happening But my point on this podcast is this I don think customers should ever be unsure of what the final version of their game will be like when they asked to pay federated This week's topic is the most popular game in the CE version of the game. We're gonna find out, right? These games are gonna land in Europe. US customers are gonna unbox them. And here's what I think is gonna happen. I think there's gonna be a little bit of those who buy one are gonna justify the purchase and say it looks amazing and the effect of the UV ink is incredible. Unless they've added more UV lighting to the CEs and maybe they did do that. This is another thing I've been wondering. Imagine if they added a I'd say die sung's Gr 774 I don't care if it's Pulp Fiction. I don't care if it's the Big Lebowski. What I want everybody in pinball to realize is this. Every pinball company should treat you the way they would want to be treated if they were a customer. So when Josh Sharpe gets all smug and starts making jokes because he made us wait two years to get a product, I don't want to ever buy from that company again. Is that how Josh Sharpe wants to be treated? He doesn't care. How many pinballs will become歡迎 for This is how this hobby's been for a while, right? It's like they want to lock in all this money right away and then you have no more leverage. And it's why I've always been against nonrefundable deposits. I think it takes away the onus and the responsibility from these companies to get it right. And think about it. Imagine if nonrefundable deposits went away. What would happen to games like Godfather and Elton John and Toy Story 4? All these Pulp Fiction LEs, avatars, like all these games where people kinda ran at it pretty quickly, even X-Men. I know Stern doesn't do nonrefundable deposits, but some dealers sort of make you commit to your LE purchase right away, and if you don't go through with it, you're screwed. I mean, everyone who spent $13,000 on an X-Men LE is feeling pretty crappy right now. But that's all I'm asking. I'm not asking the world. Just show people what the final product is before you take final payment. I think that's the best summary of this show. If you don't see what the final product is and are 100% clear on what's in that final product, then you should not make final payment. You could even argue that could extend to what code is in the game. But I'm willing, I'm willing to let the code get better over time. But if it's just a lighting feature and you can't show that, shame on you. You're going to have to show it JJP, come on. I did this show today hoping that they'll show that feature today. And remember gang, the games are on the line at the factory. Is it really that hard for someone over at Jersey Jack to grab a cell phone, turn a game on, you can shut the lights off, turn a game on, turn the phone towards the machine and let us see what it looks like. Man, if Kaneda was over at these companies, I'd be doing Facebook Lives almost every day keeping you up to speed on what's happening each day at these companies. Something's got to be happening, right? It's a company. They're making stuff. What happened today? Everybody have a great Monday. We'll talk to you soon. Kaneda out. Miraflores Video