Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Hello, Pinball Land. Welcome to episode number 48 of the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. I'm Ken Cromwell. And I am Bill Webb. What's going on, Bill? How's everything happening in the land of Bill Webb? Crazy, crazy times. Crazy times. But we're going to get into that. Apocalyptic times. It is, man. You know, it's like the gravity has ceased to exist and everybody's on their head. Well, let's jump into the action of the week. Midwest Gaming Classic took place on Friday. Now, they had two pins that were for public play that had not been in the public before with Black Knight Sword of Rage and Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Stern with Black Knight and Jersey Jack Pinball with Willy Wonka. Surprised that, I can't really say surprised per se, but it's interesting because we make that trip down the TPF for the experience and it was great, and then the two big reveals kind of happened in our own backyard, and we just don't have the opportunity to get down there based on time. No, and you know what? Look it back. I mean, I think we should have gone, but honestly, with prior commitments, I know I couldn't go, and I think you couldn't go either. It is hard to make that a one-day trip is the problem. Yeah, and you know what? Honestly, I mean, I know I had a good time on Friday. I had a great time. We'll talk about Friday in a second. In your opinion, do you think that MGC, which is the Midwest Gaming Classic out of Milwaukee, does that now solidify itself as a premier kind of venue for companies to release or you know display a pinball machine for the first time it seems like it is and i mean logistically it makes sense because you know everybody's in our backyard here anyway yeah so why would you transport 20 some pins from chicago down to texas back up or whatever you don't sell etc so maybe that's it maybe there's other reasons it's a good spot i mean and it's a very busy show because you have the video game kind of industry there too with retro console gaming arcade machines computer games all the way up to you know and then you've got pinball machines so it's kind of a one-stop shop for the gamer which is pretty nice and you open up to a whole nother crowd of people that wouldn't normally be exposed to pinball so i mean it makes a little more sense in my eyes to have it there yeah so congratulations uh dan and team over there running mgc it sounds like uh the show went really well all the feedback i got from the show was really positive so nice nicely done guys Everybody seemed to enjoy it that we talked to. So on Friday, we had the reveal of Willy Wonka, and that was by Jersey Jack Pinball. There was kind of like our media rollout. We're special and lit. This week in pinball and straight down the middle, all had content to upload at the same time to coincide with the reveal, to try to give people better information and be better informed about the game as it rolled out. before any of that happened, which went down around 7 o'clock Central Time on Friday, we decided that since we couldn't make it to MGC, that we were going to host on our Twitch channel, which is if you want to search for us on Twitch, you can just go to twitch.tv, and it's simply Special When Lit Podcast. It's just all one word. No spaces. No spaces. But we went ahead and we did like a JJP tailgate party out of Steve Beattie's house, and we fired up our stream, and we were streaming Congo, which was Steve's pin and we were just kind of talking JJP. Now during the course of that, we had a table set up so that people can kind of see like a live podcast, how it was working. And we had Jason and Matt. Yeah. From slap, say pinball podcast. We had Jeff Patterson from this week in pinball, Ken and Bill from special one lit. And then the gracious hosts, Steve Beatty chicken man. He opened up his doors and, and it was great. I, did you have a fun time doing that? Dude, it was real refreshing because normally every time we see Jeff, he's always running around like he's got his head cut off. Very busy, right? Yeah, dude. So this was like the first time he actually got to sit down, enjoy stuff, and relax and wasn't under the gun. I mean, we hung out with him at TPF, but he had so much pressure just from the Twippies coming up. Dude, he was like a nervous wreck the whole time. So it was great to actually finally hang out with him for, well, in six months, I feel like, since Expo. Right, and he was just pressure-free, you know? And he kind of let loose. I mean, we were all having some adult beverages and it was really fun to interact with people that were on the stream. And what had happened is the stream that we kind of envisioned to be just kind of a time killer for people leading up to the reveal started gaining legs. And, you know, at one point, you know, we started off. There was like 20 or 30 people that were in our chat room. And that was pretty fun for us because humbling. Yeah, we don't put a lot of time into our streaming yet. You know, we've got an approach that we're going to take, which includes a lot of live podcasting, you know, during the streams. But at one point, Bill, there were almost 400 people in chat and we had over 2000 views on that stream. And then when seven o'clock rolled around, we just transferred. There's a way that you can transfer your viewership to another Twitch channel. And we wanted to transfer our viewership of almost 400 people over to Buffalo Pinball because they were actually there. And they were there for the reveal conference. And then they were streaming the game afterwards. It was just super, super fun, man. And to be able to kind of – we had some crazy times that night. I mean, it got a little bit wild. A little blurry. I know you loved the whole Black Knight. Yeah. The Black Knight music. That was yesterday's last podcast for that. I don't mind the Black Knight music. I just don't want to hear the Black Knight music. And that's the Black Knight 2K music that Steve had on his machine that just seemed like it never stopped. And it was just getting to the point where it was like, I don't want to hear the music right now. Please, please stop it. Well, the problem was we had a couple of beverages, and then we started playing Valor Games of Black Knight. You know, it was a great time, though. Great time. It was fun. So I think everybody had a really good time. And then if you get a chance, if you just want to see what that was all about, again, the video is archived, so you can kind of check it out. So 7 o'clock rolls around. The reveal happens. The Buffalo Pinball stream is going on. People are seeing Willy Wonka for the first time. Now, we had already been on the machine a week prior when we recorded the podcast panel discussion. And if you haven't listened to that, a lot of self-promotion here today, guys. I apologize. Our prior episode is making of Willy Wonka. So check it out because you've got the design team and Jersey Jack that are all kind of discussing the game. So the world kind of sees Willy Wonka for the first time on a stream. And I think the feedback that we've gotten majoritively has been pretty good feedback. But I've noticed that there have been there's been a number of people that believe that maybe the game was overhyped. And obviously, the only people that could have overhyped the game that nobody else saw would have been, you know, podcasters that went in to see the game. And we know that Chris Calouris-Canada went in to see the game at the same time that we did. Now, Chris saw it in New Jersey, and we saw it straight down the middle in This Week in Pinball at the Jersey Jack Satellite Office, the development office that's in Bensonville. All three versions of the game, too, that we saw. Right. Now, if you remember, and you can go back two episodes ago, and you can kind of hear my excitement, where I try to meticulously detail what my overall impression was, first impression of the game. and I was super excited. Without making anybody confused, I'm just as excited as I was that day, but I think it's only fair that I kind of address a couple things if you're up for it. Sure. Okay. The first thing that Pat Lawler said that really struck me, and this just goes back into kind of like my feedback of the machine, and what I want to do is, all right, first of all, we're not professional pinball reviewers. We don't say that we're professional pinball reviewers. We're not professional journalists here. Or professional pinball players. Or professional pinball players. That said, we have a lot of exposure to pinball. We've played a ton of pinball. Between the two of us, we have a couple decades of pinball under our belt. Now, are there people that have more pinball under their belt? Absolutely. Are there people that don't have as much? Absolutely. So when we offer our feedback, it's opinion-based. It's a middle-of-the-road opinion. our opinion is basically just that of regular consumers that are going to the home we're not competitive we're not playing in tournaments um we're not hypercritical pinball enthusiasts is what we are right uh so i'm enthusiastic about pinball and i'm not looking to blow up shortcomings i i'm looking for concepts in pinball i'm not looking to just crash and burn on on all the failures willie walk into me has way more positives than it has negatives it's hard for me to really find anything that's a strong negative on the game. And that's kind of what I said when we had gone ahead and discussed our initial impressions. Now, going back to Pat Lawler, something that he said that really hit home to me was that he said he believes that Willy Wonka is, and I'm paraphrasing, he believes that Willy Wonka is the pinnacle of what pinball can be right now in the 21st century. This game is probably right now the pinnacle of what you can create in the 21st century as a pinball machine. So when Pat Lawler tells you that, this is a guy that's been around the business. He's been in pinball for years. He's designed many games. He knows the manufacturing side. He knows the sales side. He knows the developmental side. Those words rung very, very strong. Yeah, they resonated with you. They absolutely resonated with me. So that's very exciting. And when a designer tells you something like that, it's impressive to hear. Now, people that have never played the machine and said that there was some overhype going on, I don't know that that's really fair because how do you base – It's opinion that we have, though. That's the thing. And here's the thing. Out of a lot of the gripes on Pinside that we've been reading and hearing about, one is artwork. Well, let's just backstep this two years. I want to backstep. I don't think there's a lot of gripes. I think there's just as much positive and there are people that are trying to point out what they think needs improvement. There is. But you know what? The one, I mean, there's a few different areas that kind of, you know, not irk me, but, you know, really would love to have that, you know, people in here to have a discussion about why they think this way and have a, you know, a dialogue so maybe we can understand what they're saying and, you know, they can understand what we see. But you're not going to be able to do that unless they actually sit down and play the pinball machine in an environment where we played it, number one. Number two, let's go back two years to Star Wars, when Star Wars came out. Everyone was hypercritical about the artwork. They are working within a license. You can't get crazy goofy with a Disney license like that. At least I wouldn't imagine so. And Willy Wonka, in my opinion, is probably going to be the very same thing. Which, on that style pinball machine, would you want Zombie Yeti drawing some crazy crap? No. And making it unoriginal to the theme? So John Yowsey, he says on the panel discussion that there was a lot of work that had to go into rezzing up the original photos. I mean, those photos are so old. So for him to rezz up, increase the resolution of those so that they're kind of cleaned up and they look good at the size in which they are in the cabinet takes some work. You're right. I don't want Zombie Yeti. I love Zombie Yeti, and I love his artwork. I don't need him deep diving into Willy Wonka. It just doesn't seem like it would make a lot of sense with that kind of art style for me personally. Now, some photorealism, something like a Christopher Franchi approach that you see on his pins, I think lends itself better and Willy Wonka for me. And if there are Photoshop things going on on this, it's not because it was a cut and paste. There was a meticulous effort to clean these photographs up so that they present well. I kind of like seeing the original stuff looking as clean as it does at the size that it is because you just don't see that. So, I mean, that didn't really bother me. But you know what, though? I mean, we're missing one of the key points of this thing. The reason why you fell in love with it and why I really, really like it and I do plan on owning it at some point, it's just I don't plan on selling anything out of my collection. So obviously there's a barrier there that I can't break just yet, okay? But we fell in love with the way that it played. The experience, the overall experience for me is what sold me. The immersion of being in the game. And it wasn't really a whole lot else, just feeling the energy being connected to that game. There's only a handful of games that I really feel connected to when I play. One is Wizard of Oz. And I have to say, I like Wizard of Oz a lot. I'll never sell mine. But I think Willy Wonka shoots better. Now, on the flip side of the coin, I wish there were a few more toys inside of it. And I wasn't able to say that last time. Kind of like the trees in Wizard of Oz and stuff like that. Because you were not allowed to comment on what was going on in the game. Correct. Okay, now is that a deal breaker? No. What does that do? That opens the door to the mod community to go nuts on this thing Yeah exactly So even that not a downfall to the game per se You know people don like the artwork Well you know I mean honestly you really have to play the game You know, it really resonates with me when we played Beatles for the first time. We were doing this podcast when Beatles came out. We were like, oh, okay, it's Beatles. It's cool. It's a re-theme of Sea Witch, whatever. I didn't think much of Beatles. I mean, I could take it or leave it. I had no drive to want to play it. I just didn't really care. It wasn't our theme. No, it wasn't our theme. I didn't really care about a re-themed Sea Witch going on. It just wasn't for me. Yeah, but not that we wished the game bad or anything. We said that at the time. Yeah, it just wasn't our thing. And then we jumped in front of one when we played Monsters. And tell me you wouldn't want to have a Beatles at some point. I had a great time on Beatles. And it was because what changed our minds was having a hands-on experience with the machine. So I'm going to double down on this one. And I like where you're going, so keep going. Because this is kind of where I'm trying to go. I'm going to walk you right into this. Okay. So we watched the Deadpool stream. Okay. Yep. And what did you think of Deadpool when we watched the stream? So actually, you can go back. We podcasted and recorded at the same time that Deadpool was being revealed. And I don't remember exactly what was said, but I remember not being too thrilled about Deadpool. And I was one of the persons that kind of questioned that maybe there's too much red that was in the play field. and that I wasn't really a big fan of the fighting scenes because I didn't think that that correlated well to pinball and that some of the shots might have lacked some flow, but overall I thought it was a cool effort and that was kind of it. And we were discussing that as Jack Danger was streaming the pin. Again, the impression that we had on that game was based on a pinball stream, which is an overhead view of a game with a two-dimensional flattened image. And since then, I own Deadpool, and it's one of my favorite games that I've owned. And actually, I own two Deadpools because I had an LE that left and I ended up getting a premium because I just felt more comfortable with that dollar amount invested into that particular machine. I love it. And it wasn't the stream. If I would have based my opinion on a pinball stream, I never would have owned Deadpool. It was a hands-on. And it's not of any fault of Jack streaming the game. He's got his limitations and he's showing how the game shoots. Until someone can figure out how to do a 3D view of a pinball machine stream, it's never going to happen. So, you know, I mean, and where I'm going with this is just that just because you see a stream and it might not be the best thing, you know, I've really learned to appreciate a few things. Number one, how hard people put their time and effort into building some of these, all these games, in all honesty. And then to see some people rip games down. And it's like, you know, this person gave up a year and a half of their life to build this game. And whether you like it or not, you should show respect. Well, you can show respect out of just being a human being, courtesy-wise. It doesn't mean that you have to throw your money out there to support somebody's effort that you just didn't agree with at the end. But you can absolutely be respectful for the person in their attempt. Yeah, exactly. So whether it's a theme of yours or not, you don't have to be careless about somebody's feelings. I mean, they put their heart and soul into this stuff. And we've seen it firsthand where somebody's gotten bashed on something and watched the after effects of how it crushed them. And that sucks. so you know the the kind of read some of this stuff now it's like you know number one if you haven't jumped in front of it whether whether you're just going off a stream or whatever i can totally appreciate that at that point you might be able to say okay i don't know if i'm in on this because the way that i saw some 500 strangers play a game and not a professional or not somebody that had you know you know somebody like us who had it in the home for you know four or five weeks where we got some time to play it and get accustomed to how it shoots um but this game you and i played it and it flows like butter i'll still maintain that even with the flippers turned down it's still those ramps are perfect i guess the the real issue that i'm having to go back to where i kind of was going originally is that you know if somebody doesn't agree with my opinion i can totally appreciate it what i don't really understand is that how you can compare the experience that i had physically playing and being in front of a game and being part of that pinball immersion and then comparing my experience with somebody that's critiquing me like potentially like over hyping a game when they sat and they watched a video or they watched a stream and they read some stuff on the internet about it so i i just don't think that it's a fair comparison whereas uh i just have a little bit more time in an exposure physically to the game versus watching something that's on a monitor. Now, it doesn't mean that after you have the same experience that I have as far as being in front of the game that you're still going to think that maybe I overhyped something or that I talked a little bit too highly. But until you do that, I would probably recommend holding your thoughts until later because if I were to have just gone off the rails on my first experience with what I saw with Beatles and with Deadpool, I would never have even given those games an opportunity for them to wow me and they both wowed me and it was because I waited for final judgment until I played the games well here right here's the best example Ken you've had how many new games in this basement since I've known you I've had enough new games and do you you don't have a whole lot of excitement normally for a new game I I think it's always exciting to get a new game but I I just I've got enough pinball under my belt to where I don't get overly excited about anything because it's just, guys, it's pinball. I don't know. You are under the restraints of a pinball machine. Like, there is only so much that you can do as far as, like, innovation and new things and pinball. It's a pinball machine. But, you know, I agree with you there. And literally, I mean, the one thing I want to say is you're passionate about it. You're buying one. I don't think I've ever seen you play a machine and say, dude, I'm buying that game. I love it. pulled out of there right i was like wow ken does not say that and honestly i wanted one too i'm just saying that i had a really positive pinball experience uh probably the single most impactful pinball experience that i've had on any game that i've played and that's so that's how i shared my thoughts but you know what yeah so there are these people though that no matter what they're gonna hate and honestly i i really i'm really happy for some of the people that don't necessarily really coincide with our thoughts, that they could be that passionate about it, because that means that this is the biggest problem in their life, that they don't agree with us. So I really wish I was some of those people. I don't need anybody to agree with me. And you know what? Everybody's entitled and I respect everybody's opinion. I'm just saying that it's been suggested by a few people that I've read like threads on pin side that uh there was like an attempt to overhype a game and it just simply wasn't the case i think overwhelmingly uh there's been positive feedback for the game and i think where you see a lot of the difference people that had got to mgc and played the game walked away with for the most part positive pinball experience so again what i would recommend is you know i think anybody should be responsible enough as a buyer to not take anything that you hear on a podcast or on a pinball stream or reading in print as, you know, gospel and the base you're buying decision on that. It's about getting in front of a game when you can. Now, obviously, there are some times where maybe you can't do that. And then you have to kind of rely on that kind of stuff. And at that point, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Read as many reviews as whatnot as you can and see what appeals to you. But I think those that physically played the game walked away with a really great experience, just like I did. And then some of the people that are, you know, maybe questioning where the machine is and where it's headed are those that did not get in front of the machine. And it's just, it's an unfair assessment in my opinion. And this goes on all the time, but I'm just, I'm so, I guess I'm surprised because I guess I don't really know if Pat Lawler says this is the pinnacle of pinball in the 21st century as it stands right now. I don't know what people are expecting out of a pinball machine. Well, a lower playfield with a chocolate river for starters. Well, yeah, right. You know, the fizzy drink topper where it's blown bubbles off the top. A walk-a-vator that busts through the playfield glass and flies around the room and takes your picture with a 360 camera. Yeah, kind of like a modern-day drone, but for back in the day. To be honest with you, man, I'm noticing there are just people that are just negative in general, and there's nothing that you're really going to do. If you say something positive, they're immediately going to take the opposite standpoint just for the point of debate. And I see this time and time again, especially on the discussion forums or on Facebook. There are just those negative Nancy's that for whatever reason, they take great thrills and just causing controversy issues. And if that's what gets you off, man, I mean, all the power to you. Personally, I don't want to live like that. Again, I'm a pinball enthusiast. I'm not a critique where I'm just busting everybody down and every chance that I get. And a lot of it's unwarranted. I took a bunch of snapshots on my phone the last couple days, and I was going to read a bunch of these posts on Pinside, which I thought were ridiculous. And I decided not to do that just now because it really isn't worth it. There's nothing that you're going to do by calling these individuals out. And it's not because they had a bad or negative thing about the game. It's how they portray their thoughts, how they come across. It's just over-the-top ridiculousness, and it's uneducated, a small portion of those people, just uneducated ignorant opinions that i don't think anybody should take into consideration now the flip side is you can say the same thing about my opinions and uh that's fine that's fine i mean we'll agree to disagree there but i'm just i'm not going to call people out individually it just it doesn't serve the purpose uh for what we want to do on this podcast no and you know it's a pinball enthusiast podcast about two guys from chicago that like to sit down and have some bar talk about machines about pinball that's what it is guys well here let me ask you this question so What kind of fools would we look like when Deadpool came out if we would have said, Right, what kind of fools? It's not our thing. You know what it is, Bill? You know why we're not fools? It's because we approach everything differently. You know what I mean? And even when we were there, we said this was our first impressions on the game, right? But we didn't say, oh, and that's it. Go buy one right now. Never said to go buy the machine. No. We said that we can't speak of the longevity of the game and the experience because we were only there a short amount of time playing it. We just discussed the first impressions. I'm getting a little fired up right now because I think of some of the ignorance and some of the things that people say, and it's uncalled for. It just really is uncalled for. And it's not just stuff directed towards me. It's directed towards other people and people that have worked hard and this, that, and the other thing. I'm not here to blow sunshine up everybody's ass or anything like that. Well, damn, I'm out. Yeah, right? But how about this, guys? How about we just be adults and we be civil and human beings and be able to kind of talk about our thoughts and our opinions without having to jump on everything and trying to hold court on a discussion forum group because you obviously know everything and everybody else's opinion means nothing. You're telling people don't listen to me or don't listen to this guy. Why should anybody listen to you? What do you have to offer? Well, you, Bill, I'm talking about the pinball forum. Tough guy. Here's the crappiest situation out of this. Okay. In my opinion, besides the keyboard heroes and people that just want to jump in and be relevant, you know, whatever, you know what? I'd like to think that most pinball people would be able to look past a lot of that. But, you know, the, the, the thing that I think is losing focus here is we had Pat Lawler and Steve Ritchie both drop amazing games over the weekend. Yes. Both drops amazing games. 20, 30 years later coming out swinging on both their games. Now, when I say amazing games, I did not put any time on Black Knight. I saw a pinball stream by Jack Danger, and guess what? I cannot speak to my personal experience of the game because I haven't put on it. I can give you my impressions of the stream, but I know from past experience that the impression of a pinball stream in no way, shape, or form should formulate my buying decision. No, it's a face value, you know. So let's talk about Black Knight. Do you want to talk about Black Knight? I do. Do you have anything else you want to offer? with the uh i'm going to tell you this for those that jump on willie wonka i i would say most of you will be absolutely thrilled and pleased if you have one ordered congratulations i'm happy for you i hope that you will share and the enjoyment that i will also be having am i trying to convince you to buy a machine if you're on the fence no but you know what i am going to convince you to do is make every effort that you can to get to a pinball show or when this gets on location put yourself in front of the game experience it and then make a decision that's it you don't have to Listen to anything that I say. I'm not trying to sway you. You don't have to go on pin side and listen to the guy that says, there is this game lacks innovation and this guy. I mean, there's just negative Nancy's out there, and they've got their own opinion. It's how you relay that opinion, I think, is how you should earn your respect on your opinion. And before you offer an opinion, get yourself in front of a game and be educated about the opinion, not because of a feature matrix or because of what you think is going on Or what should have been Play the game Play the game All right sorry Here so one thing I want to add in before we jump into uh mgc and how that all shook down right right right right um you know i kind of a little fired up today bill a little bit it was you know it it's slightly hurtful because you know we took time out of our day to do that and for people to come back it's hurtful man it's disappointing day off of work and i lost time with my family but not a lot of this was like personally directed towards us it was just like a general feeling of of overhype because, and I can appreciate that the positive feedback we got outweighs a lot of the negative feedback, but I just, I just want to address some of the negative or some of the negativity and accusations based on an overhype thing. Uh, there was no compensation here. We're not overhyping anything. Uh, I apologize if you can't understand that I'm a hobbyist collector enthusiast that chose to take time out of my week to put a podcast up with my buddy, Bill, about us talking pinball and sharing our opinions. If you're looking for a consumer review website of pinball, it's not going to be here. But if you want to find a couple of guys that do have passion about pinball and, again, are looking for pinball to strive moving forward and are looking for concepts and not harping on failures, you've come to the right place. I can't say I'm right. I can't say I'm wrong. I can only do what makes me feel good, and I hope that people will appreciate that. You know what's going to make me feel better? getting off playing a little drain it or save it no no no getting off this topic because you want to play a little drain it or save it no no no i know what i want to train this mgc we didn't go over black knight either man dude do we even go over black knight god forbid we offer any opinions on black knight all right so i do because i think it's i'm kidding guys listen sorry for any uh any down time or negativity on my part and now we return to our regular broadcasting uh schedule hey what's going on pinball land welcome to episode number 48 of the special one lit pinball podcast my name is ken cromwell and i am mgc and at mgc this week we had uh you're at your mgc well i'm just playing the role right um to make sure that we move past right right right all right but you know i do want to pick your brain on this um how did you so i still think that we live in a great time for pinball it's come full circle 25 years focusing on the positive here pat lawler and Steve Ritchie both had their games at expo now what did you think about that it's an incredible time in pinball to have those two guys again. I think probably two of the most, if not the most, celebrated designers in pinball, each bringing their newest offering to MGC. The one thing that I'm noticing about Black Knight, Sword of Rage, and Willy Wonka and the Chalka Factory, I think it's virtually impossible to kind of directly compare the two pins. They offer such different playing styles. There's a different approach by each company for pinball machines. So I think that they have the potential of being successful in their own right. I don't know how you could compare the two pins. I just don't even think that makes sense. No, I mean if you compare price, I think they both have their... Price comparisons are one thing. I think you can kind of figure out what bang for your buck you want and what makes sense for you and what makes sense what you're going to do with the game. But as far as like reviewing the game, so to speak, I don't know that you can... No, but you know what? Here, I can't literally review the game, but out of the feedback that I have heard, People have said this is really a tough battle because Black Knight's a great game, and so is Willy Wonka. I've heard people say that they would have to do a premium because they would want the upper play field. I've heard both. I've heard some people be like, you know what, the upper play field's not for me. I think on this one I'm going to go pro. The pro has the ramp without that upper play field, and then the premium LE has the upper play field with the ramp, and I think there's like a vertical up kicker that brings that to the upper play field. Yep. So I think for fans of Black Knight, especially if you were ever in on the original or the Black Knight 2000 and you're a fan of that series. I mean, this this is probably one of those games where you have to really give consideration to jumping out and getting the music is pretty pumping. It's an adrenaline rush. And the one thing is like I'm hoping that maybe they consider. Adding some different speed or tempo to the music, because when I was watching the stream, the one thing I did notice is like the music was man it like got me so pumped up where it just never let me down right so it's like at one point I was like I was getting I needed a sword of rage I needed to like slash something I was like oh my god you needed a Xanax to calm down from the music and the ball's moving so fast the music's cranking you've got the light show hitting and it's just like it's an adrenaline rush and it looks like if you can get control of the ball and you can figure out your shots there's some excellent flow which is what you would expect out of a Steve Ritchie game yeah disclaimer I've not been in front of the game I haven't flipped it uh we have not gone in the stern or we didn't have a chance to go to MGC so again I'm gonna salt right grain of salt I I can't offer any final opinions on the game but uh from what I saw it looked like fans of the game or fans of the series aren't going to be let down you know what I from what I've heard I'm Really curious to play it. I like both designers. I do too, man. I like both designers a lot. So over the course of last week, I saw that they're coming out with a new Addams Family animated series in October. Not like cartoonish, but kind of. You know, in my mind, what would be awesome to see? I'd love to see Pat Lawler do another Addams Family based off of that, and I'd love to see Steve Ritchie do another getaway. You know, at that point, dude, you drop the mic and be like, dude, how can it get any better unless they do another Twilight Zone? I wonder if Steve ever goes back in and considers doing a getaway follow-up. I know when we had Brian Eddy in, we interviewed him a while back. I asked him directly if he thought that there would ever be a chance where he would do a sequel to Medieval Madness or Attack from Mars. I mean, you know, there was a Revenge from Mars that came out, but that wasn't his design. That was just kind of paying homage to him and the new Pinball 2000 platform. Yep. And he said, yeah, he didn't see any reason why those themes wouldn't be considered for sequels in the future. That was exciting to me because if you're into the pinball heyday of those 90s Bally Williams pins, to be able to see sequels to arguably two of the top five or top ten pinball machines of all time, that would be pretty cool to see. I would love to see that, too. Dude, I'd almost love to see a Whirlwind 2.0, you know, but whatever. Another Whirlwind? Yeah. Lawler. I mean, you never know. You never know. It's an exciting time, and honestly, with Black Knight coming out, I think it does open the doors to a lot of possibility. And on that note, I think we really need to move forward because I'm sure people are sick of hearing about both games. But you know what? I think we both need to jump on Black Knight at some point here soon. Yeah, I know. I do too. I'm looking forward to playing Black Knight. Hopefully that's sooner than later. But let's play a little Drain It or Save It. It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com. Lermods.com, they're offering custom quality playfield lighting and mods We are Pinball Machine, L-E-R-M-O-D-S, visitlermods.com today. So the first item we have for discussion comes from Mark Peterson. Mark, you wrote into the show. Mark. And he discussed a couple of different things, but he offered a drain it or save it topic, and that is Flipper Toppers. Bill, Flipper Toppers, drain it or save it? Saving it for one reason. Okay. Wizard of Oz. Oh, the ruby red slippers? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. A very simple, you know, here. I mean, you had the special flippers for Elvira when you had it, too. Yeah, so I'm going to save flipper toppers, too. That being said, some of the aftermarket flipper toppers can look a little hokey to me, like maybe people are trying a little bit too hard to throw something in that flipper area. Like the checkered flags that go on the getaway? I don't know. I don't have anything specific that rings to that. I mean, because you've got decals that can go on those, or you've got 3D-printed toppers. I mean, you've got a 3D kind of textured glitter going on with your ruby red stuff. the uh the the bony um toppers for scared stiff i think look really cool um so yeah i mean in a proper setting and with a proper theme and if tastefully done i absolutely do like flipper toppers so i'm gonna save that how about this bill how about mirror blades on your pinball machine and the mirror blades are what go in where like your inner art blades would normally go that would normally have artwork to the left and to the right of the play field inside your cabinet These are simply mirrors. Yeah, that chrome effect. I'm going to save those, but it also really depends on the game. I mean, I've seen them on some games that I don't think makes a whole lot of sense. Really? In my opinion. Okay. Here, I mean, you could put anything on a game. It doesn't mean it's right. Right. You know, I got them in T2, and I think they look awesome. So I'm going to save them, but, I mean, it's still dependent on the right theme. Yeah, I also agree. I will save mirror blades. I think that, in my opinion, mirror blades universally look better on pinball machines than some of the inner art blade packages that are being offered art-wise. Yes. So I think when in doubt, adding those mirror blades will add to a lighting effect of your pinball machine potentially. And it also kind of can give you the feeling of opening up the machine a little bit and just kind of make it look a little bit more expansive. Maybe you're a little bit more immersed into the world because of the mirror blades. So I definitely can appreciate that. And, you know, there are some really quality inner art blades too. So I'm going to save mirror blades. Lastly, though. We can't agree on this, though. So whatever it is, we're doing a 50-50 split. So, all right. So whatever you say, I'll just go oppo here. All right. Powder coating the coin door to match the rest of your powder-coated armor. And when we say powder-coated armor, those are the rails, the hinges, the lockdown bar in the legs, and the bolts, all powder-coated. Do you say any color? Do you go ahead and do the same thing for the coin door? powder coating the coin door to match bill drainer to save it i'm gonna have to drain it uh here you say coin door so i think the whole coin door not the trim around the door so that part you know talking the whole thing you're talking the whole thing you're not leaving me choices no black so gonna have to drain the whole door why is that on some games it looks good but i mean in other situations i've seen it's just like you know i get it's the thought that counts but what were you thinking? You know, I mean, here, I think of one of our buddies who's got a pin bot that actually looks pretty cool. But it can be overdone, though. And that's the only part that I don't like. It's like, you know, when everybody chromes out a game and you have the bright chrome door, you know, kind of out glaring the rest of the machine. It's like, well, where was the focus on this? So, OK, so if you chrome the machine, you wouldn't chrome the coin door? I don't think I would. All right. So you're going to drain it. It would have to be a game with a lot of color. I mean, the only game that I would think about doing it on would be like T2 because it's very colorful on the front. It lends itself well to Chrome, too, the freaking Terminator, the T-1000, whatever it is. Yeah. It's like Chrome-looking. But I couldn't see chroming out the coin door on Transformers. Okay. You know, so. Well, could you see yourself chroming anything on Transformers? Just a bit outside of Chrome, Ken, on this one. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So you're going to drain powder coating or chroming a coin door to match the rest of your powder coated or chromed doors? I'm just draining the powder coating because chrome is still... All right. And it was just... Okay. Here, like brass plating the coin door on Indiana Jones. Awesome. You know, lends itself well, you know. Okay. So that's why, you know. So we're not talking about brass plating or chroming. We're just going with powder coating. Correct. Okay. So draining powder coating to match powder coated armor on a coin door. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to save it, Bill. I love powder coating the coin door. I think if you're going to go through all the effort to have your trim, which are like these nice little accents on your machine, I think the coin door has to be powder coated to match. And the reason I'm saying that is because if I look at the trim and I look down and I see that kind of black coin door, I almost feel like the person ran out of the money. Ran out of the money or just didn't want to take it out or got a little bit lazy. And I know that's not even fair to say that, but I think for the more complete polished look, for the extra bling effect, you've got to go ahead and powder coat it. And from firsthand experience, when I had my Ghostbusters Premium, I did it like that metallic purple powder coat. And I had the machine done. Also, the coin door, I'm sorry. Yep. And then where the coin inserts were, I had that, like, chromed out around the outside just for extra accent. It was awesome, man. So I definitely like powder coating coin door to match the rest of the armor. Save it. It looks good on certain things. It does. It does. All right, so for Drainer to save it this week, that was brought to you by LureMods.com. Flipper toppers, that was brought to you or suggested by Mark Peterson. Both myself and Bill, we saved flipper toppers. Thanks, Mark. Thanks, Mark. Yeah, mirror blades, we saved the mirror blades. And then powder coating the coin door to match the rest of the armor. Bill drained that and saved that. So we did have a little bit of a disagreement. Which I have to bring up, dude. And you know I'm a fan of powder coating a bunch of crap underneath the play field. Yeah. So if I saying maybe the powder coat might not be the best choice on all games Just recently I seen some pictures on the internet and I was like what makes you think that looks good It's all about tastefully done. And it's their opinion. It sits in their room. If they like it, you know. I really like the chrome and the brass plating to match on Coindors. I mean, yeah. Especially like the Munsters LE. Was it Franchi that had his all chrome brass plated? It looked really, really nice, man. It's just very tasteful. When you get into chroming and brass plating, it gets pretty pricey. No, it's cheap, dude. You're not. Okay, I don't think that it's. I'm kidding. I was going to say, from what I've been quoted. No, it's not. There's a reason I powder coat and I don't chrome. It's almost the cost of a $2,000 machine. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. But what's up with Whirlwind, man? So we kind of had a little bit of an update last week. And I think last week you were talking about how you think that you might get under that April 20th deadline so that this game can be played on Easter. and just curious, and I'd like to get some pictures up on the website, on the Facebook page, so people can kind of see the status. Where are we with Whirlwind right now? So right now I'm literally, the new ramps arrived. I got a bunch of the bugs worked out over the weekend within the flipper, the right side flippers, the drop target, and some other areas. Is that just a mess when you repopulate the play field and you wire everything up? Is everything just a mess? Well, is it like you turn it on and you get like a credit dot and you press the test and like every single switch isn't working? Is that what it's like? Because I've never had to repopulate. I've never done a total teardown. Well, here, I'm not a professional pinball restorer by any means or whatever. You're busy reviewing. That's why. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, we're playing Roger and Ebert in the side gig for pinball. Siskel and Ebert. Yeah. So, you know, yeah, I mean, you get a bunch of weird stuff going on. And then stuff you've got to track down. So, yeah, it becomes quite tedious. As far as the timeline on the 20th, I think the game would actually be ready to flip. The only hiccup that I have now is the ramp flat that goes up and down. It will not be ready in time for the 20th. So unless I get creative and custom, which I'm going to be honest, the wife is already upset with how much time has been dumped into this thing. I don't think they'll be ready, but the apron's back on, all those coils work. Got a couple more gremlins to chase down, but at this point I'm almost ready to put the ramps on and start playing the game once I figure out the left flipper hiccup. Honestly, I'd say maybe another 16 hours left and it should be ready to stream. Hopefully, that's kind of the goal is I'm hoping about a month from now we can get a stream going with it and have people jump in. That would be fun to stream. And if you get an opportunity, we'll advertise when we're going to stream. Jump on. And it's just a very unique, different type of stream because it's more of a live podcast with pinball being played while we're kind of talking with guests. Scott Danesi is supposed to come in, and we are supposed to be streaming his TNA Whitewood out of the Special Inlet Studios here. And Scott's going to jump on the mics with us, and we might have another guest. So, you know, you've got another interesting guest coming in just to talk pinball, and you can ask questions. I know Scott's working on game number two for himself over at Spooky Pinball. You've got the Alice Cooper Nightmare Castles that are being shipped right now. So, I mean, that's exciting times, too, you know, and if we can get a couple of these streams a month, that'd be pretty fun. And I do got to send a shout-out to X-Pin. They gave me some help with this project with the white display. So shout-out to them. Brett, thank you very much. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. They're taking care of you, huh? And if it's longer than a month, honestly, I mean, it's because today I was told it might be a week, might be three weeks by the time we get the ramp flap. So literally the thing might just be sitting there pretty other than the one necessary part to hit the ramp. So you think it would be done by June 1st at the very latest? I mean, anything could happen, I suppose. You probably don't want to. Well, yeah. I don't want to say two weeks. Two weeks? Yeah. Yeah, I would. If it's not done by June 1st, we'll set it up for raffle. 10 bucks a ticket. Just get rid of it? Yeah, we'll just offload it. That whirlwind. No, it's never. At this point, I mean, you've got enough time in rebuilding the game. You can kind of see it coming together. Do you find yourself keeping this show pony whirlwind, or do you think it's something you might want to offer up for a little trade bait? All right, so we have a few minutes to discuss this because we're still looking good on time so far. So sidebar story. So when my wife was pregnant with our daughter, that's when I got the getaway and tore it down. And then my wife wound up getting pregnant, and life was good. And such, bought this whirlwind, and now my wife is pregnant again. Getaway's kind of like... Did you discuss that at all on the show? I don't remember if you ever said that. No, I didn't say it. I said it on the stream. I said it on the stream. And then she's like, so you told everybody in the free world? I'm like, relax, no one knows. No one knows you or me. Right. I don't think anyone's out wondering where you're registered for your baby shower that listens to the podcast. But congratulations, man. I know that's something you told a boy or a girl. It's a boy. So it'll be a baby pinballer. Yeah. So William E. Webb, the fifth is coming. The fifth. There's five of you. Well, yeah. Well, it's amazing. Yeah. So. Wow. So congratulations. And so when is the due date? October. So I got some time. Right. What else is going on in October? So for all those people that are hoping to run into me at Expo Pimmo Expo Just a bit outside on that one as well What's going to happen? What happens if they When's Expo? Isn't it like the 20th or something like that? Yeah, whatever it is So maybe it'll be a week or so early So if the baby hasn't come Do you risk a trip to Wheeling to go to Expo? Because remember what happened last time we were at Expo There's no way possible None So you want the baby to come early I would prefer it But guess what? I'm on healthy. As long as it's healthy. If I've got to miss Expo, well, you know what? You've got to miss Expo. If I do, it's for good reason. Yeah, no, I get it. You think you're going to miss any podcasts with the baby? You can take a two-week maternity leave? I think Jack Danger recently was talking about that, where he's looking for somebody to stream for a couple weeks in his absence because he's taking a little maternity leave. That guy deserves to take a little maternity leave. He does. He's hardcore. Does Bill Webb take maternity leave from Special One Lit Pinball Podcast? I'm hoping not. I'm hoping that literally we can just do it from our separate houses and make it fly. What if the baby comes on a Monday when we normally record? Do you drain it or save it? Guess what, man? Brought to you by LearMods.com. Guess what? Offering custom quality pinball mods and lighting for your pinball machine. And baby t-shirts. L-E-R-M-O-D-S. Visit LearMods.com today. No, but yeah, you know what I'm doing. You're going to be scrambling for a last minute host, but it is what it is. I think we pull Steve Beattie in here in case of an emergency. Steve can hold down the fort while you step out. Yeah, Steve will be on speed dial when that time comes, and he'll be made aware. No, but in all honesty, going back to Whirlwind, I built that game, and then it was kind of when my daughter was born, and Getaway's never leaving, so I almost feel like Whirlwind's never leaving, which starts off. Wow. So you're going to associate the Whirlwind build with the baking of the baby William. The fifth. The fifth, yeah. Baby coming. Interesting. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So you know what, though? It's good things. I'd have been happy if it was a girl, too. That's cool, man. I'm happy for you guys. Yeah. So if it gets a little light or whatever. So honestly, it's been on my mind a little bit lately. So I've been a little bit distracted. Completely understandable, man. Yeah. So honestly, I don't know. Your pinball reviewing skills might have been skewed because of the undue stress from keeping the wife relaxed with the baby on the way. Maybe that's something you have. Because I knew I wasn't going to sell the whirlwind now. And I was like, damn, no, I'm kidding. No, but you know what? Honestly, maybe it's just some sentimental crap, but honestly, this was one of the only ones. So much of pinball is about sentimental stuff. I mean, if you think about it. Yeah. If you think about the first machines we bought, I bought the Earthshaker because I loved playing it when I was younger. So that's why I bought it. It's sentimental. T2, that's going to work now at some point. So, you know, and I mean, it's because it's deep code with a dot matrix display, you know, not a 29 inch LCD or whatever. Yeah. You know, it's about what you enjoy and what you connect to. Right. So. Right. Well, good, man. You got anything else before we close this out? No, man. Everybody, hopefully you find some happiness and, you know, get in front of a machine and try it out before you review it. And I think that sums it up. I apologize if I went a little overboard with everything today. And it's again, it's it's our podcast. So we like to be able to freely speak our mind. The intention is not to offend anybody with our thoughts or our opinions. No. Or our amateur reviews. So if any of it was taken the wrong way, I apologize in advance. That being said, consider the source. We're a couple of pinball enthusiasts that are passionate about pinball. And we're just trying to encourage more pinball and better pinball. We would never steer anybody wrong based on our personal beliefs. That's just how it is. Unless you're behind the wheel with Bill Webb. after some Starbucks. Right. You'd be steered in different directions you didn't know a car could go into. Yeah, like Carrie Underwood said, Jesus take the wheel. Ah, there you go. Well, listen, I do want to thank LureMods.com for sponsoring the Drain It or Save It segment. And then if you guys are looking for mods for pinball machines and you go to LureMods.com, they have a special coupon code set up for special listeners, and that is SWL10. So SWL10, no spaces. It gets you 10% off the order. So with these new games coming out right now, Black Knight and Willy Wonka, I think both are going to lend themselves well to some pretty outstanding mods. Consider jumping over to LearnMod, see what they've got, and use that coupon code. And I think we need to jump in and, you know, not that it's a sponsor, but I think we need to give some love to our buddy Zach, man. He's got games coming. Yeah, you know what? And I'll say this. The amount of effort that Zach and Greg from Straight Down the Middle did going into Jersey Jack Pinball the other week to get all that footage done for their release that they did for their video and all the editing that went on there. It was pretty substantial. So that's huge. And then Zach being a distributor buddy of ours, also we wish him luck. If you get a chance and you're looking for a distributor for pinball and you're a free agent because you always want to stay with your distributor if you can, but check out Flip N Out Pinball for that. Also, Jeff Patterson, so much work goes into this week in pinball. And to see what this guy's been doing, especially over the last week or so. And the hours. With this Jersey Jack pinball reveal was incredible. Well, we don't want these guys to go away with what the content they bring. You know, Greg 2 and Jason and Matt now, you know. It takes a different type of animal, different type of person to kind of go and put the effort in that's involved with these kinds of things. And we were really honored to be part of that media rollout in which we offered our panel discussion on Jersey Jack pinballs. Willie Wonka. So if you want to get a little bit more background information about the design process and the art process and the music process, I encourage you to give the podcast a listen. And listen, we are always open to feedback. So the email, if you agree or disagree and you want to vent your opinion, if you want your email read on the show, let us know. We'll do that. And that's special when litpinballpodcast at gmail.com. I had asked people earlier today to submit their impressions of Willie Wonka or Black Knight Sword Rage. And we got a lot of feedback more so than I thought. And it was all very fair and balanced feedback. So that was pretty nice. I didn't get a time to kind of go through those on the show. I think it may be a more appropriate time we can kind of dissect that and maybe ask one or two of the listeners to come on the show if they want to talk about it, because I think it's fair to get other perspectives in the hobby with these two machines. So fun time for pinball, guys. And I hope it only gets better from here, right? Absolutely. Well, that's perfect, man. Let's wrap up episode number 48. So for Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody. Where does Whirlwind rank for you as far as... Well, not Whirlwind, though. I wrote WW down there. I keep thinking Whirlwind, too. So I'm redoing a Whirlwind right now, so whenever I see WW, I think Whirlwind. Me, too. I was trying to make it easy on us, but I got confused, too. I was like, Whirlwind? What are we talking about? Yeah. We're not doing... That's a nice game, by the way. It is. Where does Whirlwind rank for you as far as the games that you've designed? Well, Whirlwind was designed back in 1908. I'm sorry. I keep saying that. Take three. Where does Willy Wonka rate for you as far as the games that you've designed? Well, Whirlwind rates for me very high. That's an outtake, guys. I like that. I like that. Okay. So I'll go again. I'm sorry. No, take four. I love it. It's Jersey Jack Pinball's latest release, Wonka Wind. That's a nice game, by the way. Whirly Wonk. I'm sorry, I keep saying that. Willy Wind. Willy Wind. It is.