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The Pinball Show Ep 107: The Passing Of A Pinball Pioneer & Industry Updates

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 39m·analyzed·Aug 1, 2022
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TL;DR

Wayne Nines obituary and industry updates on production, market share, and pricing from Gary Stern interview.

Summary

The Pinball Show episode 107 opens with the passing of Wayne Nines, a legendary Gottlieb pinball designer and engineer who lived to 104 and designed/engineered 180+ games. The episode covers industry updates including Chicago Gaming Company's topper supply delays for Cactus Canyon, Jersey Jack's production line photo turning out to be a demo unit, Stern ending Led Zeppelin production, and Gary Stern's Barstool Chicago interview revealing market share (85-90%), export percentages (35-40%), employee count (303 assembly + 400+ total), and three buyer segments (commercial, collectors, rec room). Hosts discuss Stern's pricing strategy and limited edition standardization at 1,000 units.

Key Claims

  • Wayne Nines designed 180 pinball games for Gottlieb, with 159 produced, making him one of the most prolific pinball designers of all time

    high confidence · Zach Minney cites this as researched fact; Dennis acknowledges Wayne's prolific output in the EM era

  • Wayne Nines invented the electric switching device (pop bumper spoon switch) and the two-player pinball machine (1972, via Challenger)

    high confidence · Dennis cites patents found via PenWiki; specific technical innovations attributed to Nines

  • Wayne Nines started in pinball in 1937 with Western company, joined Gottlieb in 1939, served in WWII, and remained with Gottlieb until 1983

    high confidence · Detailed career timeline provided by Zach Minney with specific dates and role progression

  • Chicago Gaming Company is considering shipping Cactus Canyon SE Plus models without toppers and sending toppers later due to supply chain delays

    high confidence · Craig Bobby reports official consideration by CGC; delays ongoing since 2021 announcement

  • Stern Pinball has 85-90% market share according to Gary Stern's Barstool Chicago interview

    high confidence · Gary Stern quoted directly in interview; Zach notes prior estimates ranged 70-95%

  • Stern Pinball exports 35-40% of games overseas, down from previous 50% estimate

    high confidence · Gary Stern stated in Barstool interview; Zach attributes shift to strong dollar and expensive international shipping

  • Stern Pinball employs 303 people specifically on assembly lines plus 400+ total employees company-wide

    high confidence · Gary Stern provided specific numbers to Barstool Chicago; Zach notes precision suggests personal knowledge

  • 70% of Stern pinball machines are now sold to non-commercial buyers (collectors, enthusiasts, rec room)

    high confidence · Gary Stern stated in interview; represents shift from prior 50% commercial baseline

Notable Quotes

  • “Wayne really had a love for the game. And just different perspectives. But to run over a little bit of the history on it, because obviously, Wayne was in the hobby for so long, in the industry for so long. I mean, he started in pinball in 1937.”

    Zach Minney @ ~5:00-6:00 — Establishes Wayne Nines' lifetime commitment to pinball industry from 1937-2024

  • “He wanted to have it stacked so that based off of what cards were where, you have to close certain switch combinations and all that. And Wayne sort of obsessed over this design, and he ended up being able to come up with no computers, a solution around the entire problem.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~12:00-15:00 — Illustrates Wayne's engineering mastery solving mechanical problems without digital solutions on Queen of Hearts

  • “I remember my peak. And it's like he's like I said, I sit and I try and remember and come up with the circuit. And I just I can't I know I did it. I don't remember how I did it anymore.”

    Zach Minney (quoting Wayne Nines interview) @ ~18:00-19:00 — Poignant reflection on Nines' aging despite mental sharpness; reveals personal frustration at skill loss

  • “Did you know Stern has 85% to 90% of the market? I'm always interested year after year. How do they know that? Well, they don't.”

    Zach Minney @ ~35:00-36:00 — Questions validity of market share estimates while noting Stern's claimed dominance

  • “Gary Stern indicated that probably 70% of their pinball machines are no longer commercial focused. 70%. Right, right. I always remember when he used to say it was like 50% commercial.”

    Zach Minney / Dennis Creasel @ ~42:00-45:00 — Major market shift: home/collector sales now dominate Stern's business model

  • “Well over 400 people, end quote, in total.”

    Zach Minney (quoting Gary Stern) @ ~40:00 — Gary Stern's specific employee count disclosure; Zach notes unusual precision

  • “The pinball world was so amused. In fact, Stern's marketing antics got buyers so revved up into a pinball-buying frenzy, and then threw them right into the loving arms of the Pinball Brothers, with their latest, perfectly timed, yet dare I say it, somewhat lackluster, release of Queen in Concert Pinball.”

Entities

Wayne NinespersonGottliebcompanyGary SternpersonStern PinballcompanyChicago Gaming CompanycompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyPinball Brotherscompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern's three-tier pricing model (Pro/Premium/LE at 1,000 units) may face pressure if home market saturation increases; Gary Stern suggests pricing still unsustainable

    medium · Zach reports: 'Gary kind of let slip that he thinks the pen is still too expensive' and interviewer pressed about cost reduction; Gary indicated playfield size would need compromise to reduce price

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern claims 85-90% market share; exports shifted from 50% to 35-40%, indicating stronger domestic demand and currency/shipping impacts

    high · Gary Stern disclosed specific figures in Barstool interview; Zach contextualizes shift to strong dollar and expensive international shipping post-pandemic

  • ?

    event_signal: Barstool Chicago's Dog Walk interview with Gary Stern providing rare detailed market data disclosure to non-pinball-focused audience

    high · Gary Stern appeared on 'The Dog Walk' show hosted by Barstool Chicago and disclosed market share, export data, employee count, and buyer segment breakdowns

  • ?

    community_signal: Historical preservation: Wayne Nines' willingness to give interviews up to age 104 preserved industry knowledge; recognized as critical loss of institutional memory

    high · Zach notes: 'a lot of this stuff isn't in written record. Unless these employees, these workers, these designers share their stories, we wouldn't have them. There's a lot we lost from the early days of pinball that didn't get shared. But Wayne gave us as much as he could'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Pinball Brothers capitalized on Stern's Comic-Con tease with timely Queen in Concert release; positioned as beneficiary of competitor's marketing failure

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.300

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. Oh, we've got the goods this week on the Pinball Show. We celebrate the legacy of a pinball pioneer. We talk Gary Stern's recent interview with Barstool Chicago. Stern Pinball Production Updates for Games and Accessories, The Toy Story 4 Stream Along, Updates from the Pinball Brothers and their new Queen Pinball title, Chicago Gaming Company waiting on topper parts, and a possible temporary resolution, and Pinball Market Trends. Oh, and Dennis rips on me a couple of times, so y'all will love hearing that too.
1:00
Welcome to the Pinball Show, episode 107. I'm Zach Minney, alongside one of my great buddies, Dennis Creasel. How are you, Dennis? I'm doing pretty well. Or as you know, as I often quote, you've got a friend in me. A lot of people were singing that this last week. They apparently were. Pinball is full of friends. But unfortunately, we have to open with some sad news. Oh, man, yes, we do. We lost a pinball pioneer this last week. Wayne Nines passed away at the age of 104. Coincidentally enough, I think the day after his birthday? Yeah, I believe so. I believe it was the day after. 104. Wow. It designed over, I looked this up, and this can't be true. Designed over 175 pinball machines for Dee Gottlieb in the 50s and 60s? Well, you know, I don't know the full range of where you do the cutoff. My understanding, though, is yes, he did actually have 180 pinball designs. However, 159 only were produced.
2:01
So he is one of, or if not the most prolific pinball designer of all time. I hedge on it because depending how you count multiple player versions and such, it's sort of between him and Ed Krinsky, who was also of Gottlieb. So but the volumes of both of them are it's just not like, you know, we think today pinball is different than than how it was in the era. It would not have been unheard of for Wayne to do 10 games in a year. Yeah. Different, different layout. Yeah. And I heard you talking. We ain't talking Shrek family guy re-things. No. I heard you speaking about about the legacy of Mr. Nines. I forgot what it was on. And I heard you talk about him not only being a designer, but really kind of a prolific engineer. Yes. And it might have been one of my interviews with either Ryan Clayton or Nick Baldridge when they had their Queen Op Carnival. The first volume of that is actually about Wayne Nyans. And I would say, at least, and everyone's going to have their own opinion on who are your favorite designers, who are your favorite designers of the EM era and all of that. But to me, Wayne is actually better known for, at least for my part, his engineering prowess than the designs themselves.

  • Stern's limited edition standard production run is 1,000 units per game

    medium confidence · Gary Stern discussed LE tier standardization; Zach interprets this as new baseline, though not explicitly confirmed as policy

  • Stern is ending production of Led Zeppelin pinball designed by Steve Ritchie to make room for newer titles

    high confidence · Craig Bobby reports as production news; game was commercial success but discontinued

    • Craig Bobby @ ~27:00-30:00 — Criticizes Stern's Comic-Con tease strategy as marketing failure that inadvertently promoted competitor Pinball Brothers

  • “Like, because if you change too much, it becomes a mere toy, right? Not a close approximation to a piece of commercial equipment.”

    Zach Minney @ ~54:00-56:00 — Articulates core tension in home pinball market: maintaining 'authentic' experience vs. reducing price through compromises

  • “At age 104, Dennis, that's one hell of a high score that I don't think anyone is going to be. Steve Kordek got close. He did. About 100, almost 101.”

    Zach Minney @ ~21:00-22:00 — Tribute to Wayne Nines using pinball terminology; references other pioneer longevity

  • “So oftentimes the allotments are configured that way but then they come back to the U before they produced So that makes sense to me.”

    Zach Minney @ ~40:00-41:00 — Reveals dealer allotment reallocation strategy post-production planning; export-to-domestic shift

    • Zach Minney
    person
    Dennis Creaselperson
    Craig Bobbyperson
    Ed Krinskyperson
    Pat Lawlorperson
    Harry Mabbsperson
    Steve Ritchieperson
    Lyman Sheetsperson
    Josh Sharpperson
    Led Zeppelin Pinballgame
    Cactus Canyongame
    Queen in Concert Pinballgame
    Barstool Chicagoorganization

    medium · Craig Bobby notes Queen release was 'perfectly timed' to capture buyers redirected from Stern's failed tease, though reception was 'somewhat lackluster'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: EM era engineering constraints (pinball can only reliably close 3 stacked switches) driving innovative mechanical solutions; contrasts with modern digital flexibility

    high · Dennis explains Wayne Nines' Queen of Hearts solution: 'pinballs...don't weigh enough to close a rollover that has a lot of switches stacked together. In fact, you can only reliably close three sets of switches maximum with a pinball'

  • ?

    leak_detection: Jersey Jack production line photo misinterpreted as vault tease, creating false hope for game rethemes; actually demo unit for trade show

    high · Craig Bobby: 'Jersey Jack confirmed to me that in fact it was not a vault tease, but simply one of their own demo games for marketing that was put on the line to be boxed to bring to an upcoming trade show'

  • $

    market_signal: 70% of Stern pinball sales now non-commercial (home/collector/rec room) vs prior 50% baseline, indicating major market shift away from location operators

    high · Gary Stern stated 'probably 70% of their pinball machines are no longer commercial focused' in Barstool interview; hosts note surprise at magnitude of shift

  • $

    market_signal: Stern's Comic-Con marketing strategy criticized as ineffective tease; generated hype but revealed only existing production (Godzilla, Rush) rather than new announcements

    high · Craig Bobby: 'Stern's marketing antics got buyers so revved up into a pinball-buying frenzy, and then threw them right into the loving arms of the Pinball Brothers...unfortunately not much was gleaned from this event Other than what shaped up to be the mother of all pinball teases'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie's Led Zeppelin being discontinued despite commercial success; appears to be portfolio management rather than performance issue

    high · Craig Bobby reports 'Stern is getting set to end production of Steve Ritchie's last Stern title, Led Zeppelin, to make room for newer or better-selling titles, despite that title still being an overall production success'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern standardizing limited edition production at 1,000 units per game, suggesting established baseline for LE tiers

    medium · Gary Stern 'said there's a thousand le's for each of the game but the way he discussed it it sounded almost like a new standard'; Zach interprets as policy baseline

  • ?

    product_strategy: Chicago Gaming Company's Cactus Canyon facing extended delays for topper parts; considering shipping SE Plus models without toppers and delivering later

    high · CGC 'considering bumping their upcoming SE Plus runs ahead of the LEs because the company is still struggling to secure parts for the game's topper' with potential for parts to arrive later post-shipment

    • 3:20
    And I know you were doing some research this morning regarding some of the patents he holds. Yeah, I think this is via maybe PenWiki, but said that he holds very important patents. For example, the electric switching device, which is what we know today kind of as the pop bumper spoon switch. And then also the two-player pinball machine, 1972. This was from his Challenger. Kind of an odd attempt at a two-player head-to-head pinball machine. I'll tell you one that was Wayne's favorite. It's not patent, but from an engineering standpoint. And it was his game Queen of Hearts, which I do not believe I've ever had the opportunity to play. I'm not familiar. Well, it's real old. It's from December 1952. Whoa. And so it's a card theme. And the gameplay is really popular. And I think the reason, in part, is because of what Wayne did with... This was back when gobble holes were still a primary idea. So for those not familiar, a gobble hole is where the ball will fall into a hole, and that takes the ball out of play. You've lost the ball at that point. On Queen of Hearts, there are five gobble holes, which represent various playing cards. And what Wayne wanted to do with it is that you would get replays. and I guess a certain number of replays for certain hand combinations that you would build with the gobble holes, like if you shot a full house or a four-of-a-kind, for example, okay? Here's the thing. The problem is this is back before we have printed circuit boards and microchips able to keep track of stuff. So you've got to do this all with electromechanical equipment. And the problem that he ran into was a pinball, and the pinballs were the same back then as they are now, they don't weigh enough to close a rollover that has a lot of switches stacked together. In fact, you can only reliably close three sets of switches maximum with a pinball. Oh, I never thought of that. Yeah. Well, because nowadays we don't need it. We just have a micro switch or an opto or we do whatever. We throw it in memory. Yeah. But he needed to have it stacked so that based off of what cards were where, you have to close certain switch combinations and all that. And Wayne sort of obsessed over this design, and he ended up being able to come up with no computers, a solution around the entire problem. He was able to implement his replay features, and it was ultimately, in his view, his greatest engineering masterpiece he ever achieved. Legacy Y. So it was just the way he worked around it and came up with a whole new circuit to do that. Not one patented, but ultimately made a very, very successful game for himself and for the company. Wow. And that legacy, that wasn't short-lived. It was throughout his whole lifespan that he was so into pinball. I remember him doing interviews, you know, up in the late 90s, early 100s, still doing interviews about pinball and his love for the game. That reminds me of Wayne's successor, Ed Krinsky, at Gottlieb. He was sort of, he wasn't passionate about pinball. A lot of people may not have known that, but he went in, he really viewed it as just a job. And he did it, and he kind of did that grind, whereas Wayne really had a love for the game. And just different perspectives.
    6:40
    But to run over a little bit of the history on it, because obviously, Wayne was in the hobby for so long, in the industry for so long. I mean, he started in pinball in 1937. Wow. Yeah, it was with a company no one really knows about anymore called Western. But in 1939, he joined Gottlieb, and that's where he spent his entire pinball career. Okay. I mean, he did have a break because, like many, he served in World War II. Wow. But he went back to the company after the war, and Gottlieb actually went into war production during the war. So they weren't making pinballs that entire time period. And when Wayne came back, he was – he did not start as a game designer. His first game was actually out in 1949. So a little bit after the inventor of the electromechanical flipper, Harry Mabbs had put out his flipper game Humpty Dumpty. Oh, yeah. And then Harry left Gottlieb. I don't know why. He went over to Williams. I know the suspicion is because of money. Like he expected to get significantly paid more with the – the flippers really changed the industry. So he left, and so in 1951, Wayne became lead designer, really only designer for most of that time period. And so from 1951 through a point in 1965, he was an active game designer. And then in 1965, he became chief engineer at Gottlieb, and Ed Krinsky came on board to be the new lead designer. And then, yeah, so he was chief engineer. Then in 1971, Wayne became director of engineering and product development. And then eventually in the 70s, he transitioned again to his final position, which was vice president of engineering. So you see there was this huge emphasis in his career on the engineering side, even though he did spend many, many years as a designer. And so he did that all the way up until a point in 1980. And then he actually went through most of 1983 as a consultant to Gottlieb. And then he was like truly retired after that point. Well, yeah, I would hope so. But still passionate, willing to talk to people. One of the things I know, because I never interacted directly with Wayne, but one of the things I remember a lot of people always point out is, because there was a lot of stuff around his 100th birthday, a lot of interviews, a lot of discussions with him, and it was just that his mind remained extremely sharp, so he could recall all of this stuff. I remember reading in one of the interviews, one of his biggest frustrations was that he no longer mentally could construct the Queen of Hearts circuit. Like he's like he it frustrated him to know that he didn't have it in him to develop it from scratch anymore. To do something that most humans couldn't do. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yes. But, you know, he's like, I remember my peak. And it's like he's like I said, I sit and I try and remember and come up with the circuit. And I just I can't I know I did it. I don't remember how I did it anymore. It's just one of those. But he remembered so much of so many other things that he worked on throughout the process and throughout his career. and now I'm assuming because you've typically leaned more modern pinball that you've never owned a Wayne game. You know, I'd have to go back and look. I would say that there's a good chance that at some point in time I have owned a Wayne game, but not knowing that I did, and very short-lived. I've not kept any EMs. I've never owned even a Woodreel, but not kept EMs for a long time. Some of the notable games, Dennis and listener from Wayne 9s, include Pioneer, 300, Soccer or Super Soccer, Spirit of 76, probably one of the most popular, Buckaroo, Happy Clown, Shipmates, World Fair, Slick Chick, Gaucho, and even more contemporary stuff that was remade, rethemed, skinned, Pabst, Can Crusher, and Womenele. Those two are, you know, that's a little weird one. Sure, sure. Because those are seen as, well, at least Womenele is a Dennis Nordman design, and it is. the thing is that they're based off of a Wayne game from 1957 called Continental Cafe and so they're sort of somewhat of a conversion the rules and how they score are significantly different though again and people can correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read in one of the interviews with Wayne Hyans that that got brought up like oh you know Continental Cafe was used as sort of like this basis for Wonelli and some of these other themes and I think if I remember right Wayne goes really? that wasn't one of my good games oh it reminded me of when barry osler told you that popeye's not a good game why do you like it really that's the one you want to talk about yeah yes so so yeah obviously really really famous ones i'd say a lot of uh historic collectors wood rail type collectors love slick chick that's always the one i do hear about that yeah but the one i owned of his which Which wasn't one of his notable ones. And the oldest game I've ever owned was 1956's Gottlieb scoreboard, score hyphen board. I've heard of it. Multiple scoreboards. Yeah. It was my first experience with what I call middle pop pinball, where there's a pop bumper. Spanish size is the most famous of these. But there's a pop bumper at or below your lowest set of flippers. Okay. Kind of in the middle of the game that allows the ball to go back up into play. That actually, selfishly for my part, got me really curious about Middlepop and all these different designers that worked on these really weird, obscure kind of layout games that used pop bumpers in a really creative manner. And ultimately, actually, I wrote a whole article about them back in 2018. It's over on Pinball News called, because I'm super creative, Middlepop Pinball. Oh, Twippy Award finalist written article. My whole interest in that stemmed from owning a Wayne Nines game. Dennis, I don't know if I've owned a Nines game, but I can't say I still have a favorite. I've played. I haven't played close to how many he designed, but there's probably a handful I've played at shows or different buddies own. My favorite, it's actually soccer or super soccer. Okay. I really like that game. It's a lot of fun. My buddy had one. He had a really clean example of one. What I loved was that back box display. Oh, yeah. No, it's super. It's super cool. We had one of those at the Kansas City Pinball Championship in the free play area a few years ago. Yeah, and I love the concept of wasn't it the balls collected throughout the game roll into the bonus kind of thing? Yeah, I think that's how it worked. Man, I love that concept. That was really fun. That was almost like for me, it's like, okay, I can get behind one of these older games because it may be points, but it's still something kind of moment-wise, a task-wise. Yeah, you get that tangible ball that counts for a golden ticket or whatever. I really just love that. He is extremely influential to many throughout this industry. Our industry would not be the same without his legacy and all that he has brought. A lot of concepts in which he brought to this thing that we call the perfect game are things that are going to go on for decades. People are going to utilize his expertise and his knowledge, his genius. He will be missed. Our thoughts go out to his family, his friends, all affected by him and had the joy of meeting him. I will say this. At age 104, Dennis, that's one hell of a high score that I don't think anyone is going to be. Steve Kordek got close. He did. About 100, almost 101. And I think Wayne, to my knowledge, he was the last of the Woodroyal designers that was still with us. But thankfully, he shared so much of his knowledge of those days because a lot of this stuff isn't in written record. Unless these employees, these workers, these designers share their stories, we wouldn't have them. There's a lot we lost from the early days of pinball that didn't get shared. But Wayne gave us as much as he could so that we would actually have a good history of what went on at Gottlieb and in the industry as a whole during those decades of formative development. Well, thank you, Mr. Nines. He's given a lot to the hobby. It's sad to see him go, but his legacy will definitely live on, and he will be missed.
    15:10
    Hello and welcome to the Pinball Show's Top Stories. I'm Craig Bobby. Let's start out this week with a little news from Cactus Canyon remake manufacturer Chicago Gaming Company, who is considering bumping their upcoming SE Plus runs ahead of the LEs because the company is still struggling to secure parts for the game's topper. Say what? The company is considering the possibility of shipping SE Plus models without the topper, and then once parts are secured, sending out the toppers later. Say what? Now remember, the SE Plus and LE models come with different electrical components versus the regular SE that allow the topper to function. The ongoing delays have impatient Cactus Canyon SE Plus and LE buyers refreshing their emails like crazy, waiting for their shipping confirmations since the game's formal announcement at the Chicago Pinball Expo in 2021. Of course, the regular standard editions with no toppers have been shipping out to buyers over the past few months to much fanfare and great reviews. Beyond the toppers, all Cactus Canyon buyers are eagerly awaiting the new software upgrade kit, which will contain upgraded code for a yet undetermined price. From both Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharp, Josh has continued on at CGC to help with Lyman's final code masterpiece since Lyman's untimely passing at the beginning of 2022. Now over to Jersey Jack News, where a couple of weeks ago, some of you may remember seeing a picture of their unlicensed dialed-in machine on a production conveyor in the JJP factory, touching off some hopes that JJP might be vaulting that underrated Pat Lawler title, or maybe another title, please be pirates, or maybe even a rethemed Hobbit to the new upcoming Rings of Power TV series coming soon on Amazon Prime. But alas, no. Calm, calm down, everyone. Calm down. Jersey Jack confirmed to me that in fact it was not a vault tease, but simply one of their own demo games for marketing that was put on the line to be boxed to bring to an upcoming trade show. It was a simple photo op and nothing more. Damn it! A bit of a slow week in the world of Stern Pinball, beyond hundreds and hundreds of Godzilla and Rush Pinball machines going out the doors, we have word that Stern is getting set to end production of Steve Ritchie's last Stern title, Led Zeppelin, to make room for newer or better-selling titles, despite that title still being an overall production success. And lastly, for those that missed last week's TPS episode with special guests Joel Engelberth and Zach Menne, or those that are still scratching their head about what really happened, I thought I'd summarize what we learned from the Stern Pinball booth at Comic-Con in San Diego with special guest Ozzy Osbourne, Todd McFarlane, and even more bizarre, the king of Mexican wrestling, El Hijo de Santo!
    18:10
    Santo! So here's what we learned. That Stern's next pinball machine will be none other than Venom Pinball. That Stern's next pinball machine will be an Ozzy Osbourne music pin.
    18:24
    Okay, Black Sabbath. Jaws. James Bond. Sonic the Hedgehog Toy Story 1 A Mexican wrestling themed puzzle with some Todd McFarlane art Some interesting celebrity appearances and good times playing pinball Oh god So yes folks, unfortunately not much was gleaned from this event Other than what shaped up to be the mother of all pinball teases, innuendos and trolls By Stern Pinball themselves Oh yes, and the pinball world was so amused. In fact, Stern's marketing antics got buyers so revved up into a pinball-buying frenzy, and then threw them right into the loving arms of the Pinball Brothers, with their latest, perfectly timed, yet dare I say it, somewhat lackluster, release of Queen in Concert Pinball. Anybody find me? Somebody to love And despite Zach Many's very logical and, yes, educated explanation last week on how this was somehow all very well planned and understandable that Stern doesn't do new releases at Comic-Con or pinball conventions anymore, but as a fan, I still feel it's all somewhat of a letdown and a bit of a marketing miss for Stern after orchestrating the monster of all new pinball hype trains where all signs simply ended up pointing to yet more Godzilla and Rush production. Now clearly something was brewing with Stern and that good old and I do mean old Prince of Darkness Ozzy Osbourne along with comic artist and Venom creator extraordinaire Todd McFarlane but as usual, loyal and new star of pinball fans are treated yet again to another helping of We shall have to wait and see, as the good old ways of keeping all your pinball production cards hidden until the 11th hour when inevitably someone breaks rank and leaks it all over the internet anyway the night before a scheduled release date is still very much alive and well in the world of pinball. Nope, no two to three year look ahead for you pinball fans Unlike what movie mogul genius Kevin Feige of Marvel movies treats its fans to every year at Comic Con Nope, nope, nope Instead, pinball fans get winking emojis and who knows laughing emoji, laughing emoji When asked directly on Stern's Facebook pages what's coming next for Stern Pinball Ah well, not to worry Stern, your legions of adoring fans still love you even if you do still treat us all like impatient, spoiled children before Christmas morning. We'll still be there to unwrap your next beautifully created, licensed pinball treasure. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    21:23
    Dennis, you've been doing a lot of walking lately, I hear, on the Collected Gamers podcast. That's Tony. It's almost become an exercise podcast between you two biking and walking. That's Tony's walking. I've mostly been biking. except when they're patching the asphalt. Does Tony have any pets?
    21:39
    They have, his family has like three dogs. Oh, I wonder if he ever takes his dog for a walk. No. They're like small dogs. Okay, small dogs don't need a walk? I think small dogs just sort of roll, kind of roll around. That's what bulldogs do. Does Tony have any birds?
    22:02
    Not to my knowledge. It's always about the birds. The only reason I bring this up is because this last week in Pinball, the Dog Walk is a show featured on Barstool Chicago, and they interviewed co-owner of Stern Pinball, Gary Stern. The Gary Stern? The one and the only. I found this interview very interesting just because it came from a non-Pinball enthusiast. Did you get a chance to watch, I guess watch, it was a YouTube video, but watch this interview? Yes, I did watch it. There's a lot of notable pieces in here for me. Yeah, things you as a distributor didn't even know. Absolutely.
    22:40
    Did you know Stern has 85% to 90% of the market? I'm always interested year after year. How do they know that? Well, they don't. But year after year, at least their estimation, because you can take those estimations and use that as a databases to their perception of rising or falling market security, if you will. Sure. I've heard before 95%. I've heard before Stern individuals say 70%. Gary Stern claimed on this interview that Stern Pinball has about 85% to 90% of the market share in this industry. That sounds about right. If anything, maybe conservative. I mean, I don't know. Sure. We also often heard, Dennis, that whenever games get made, 50% go overseas and 50% stay domestic. We used to hear that, yeah. Well, as an update, Gary Stern said in this interview that the export numbers are roughly 35% to 40% of their games. I don't think that's surprising. I don't know if that is a change or if that's just a more accurate statement. It depends how far back we go to claim the last statement. But given the current market with and the strength of the dollar versus the currencies of other countries. For example, we've been hearing a lot about how expensive it is for Australia to get a game. That was a big point of discussion with Toy Story with Jersey Jack Pinball. So it would in no way surprise me that the percentage of U.S. sales has simply become larger because it's gotten exceedingly expensive for foreign markets to import. And that may shift in the future. It sure could, especially in the next year or two. And as a distributor myself, listener, there are times where, I don't think it's a problem for me to say this, but Stern Pinball will contact me weeks after a game is announced and all of us dealers have allotments and such. And they come back and say, hey, Zach, are you interested? I know you said you wanted this many. We weren't able to fulfill that. But were you interested in five, ten more units? And I say, yeah, where are they coming from? And they say, well, the plans for overseas dealer X, something fell through or the shipping charges right now or the cost or the value of the dollar or something like that they had to back out of their initial allotment So oftentimes the allotments are configured that way but then they come back to the U before they produced So that makes sense to me. We've heard many times before Stern Pinball has 300 employees. That was always kind of like the golden, 300 employees work over there. How many do X manufacturer have? It was a comparison number there. Gary Stern talked about that to Barstool Chicago and said there are, I love that he knew, he knew specifically 303 employees that do assembly on the line. And that's not counting other jobs within the company. He said overall you've got a lot of people, whether it's coders at home or sales, that are in and out of the office, but the cubicle and the office employees is what I'll call them. He said, quote, well over 400 people, end quote, in total. Oh, now in the assembly count, because it was so specific, do you think he knows all of them? Or do you think he has memorized the formula and he just remembers the number of microwaves and he's able to do a division thing and it gets him a multiplication? How would he know 303? That's impressive. It's like he signs every one of those paychecks. Yeah, well, that's true, too. I bet he knows a lot of them. I can see him being pretty involved with that company, even if he doesn't have to be. He also talked about having three centers of market, that is, buyer basis. He talked about the commercial locations still being a viable thing, collectors and enthusiasts, those that are always looking for all of the extra glitter and extra features. And then he said the rec room buyers, those are kind of the pen buyers, somebody that wants a pool table, an arcade machine, and a pinball machine. So he sees those sectors being in three. commercial collectors, enthusiasts, and rec room buyers. What surprised me even more, Creasel, was that he indicated, Gary Stern indicated that probably 70% of their pinball machines are no longer commercial focused.
    27:02
    70%. Right, right. I always remember when he used to say it was like 50% commercial. I remember back then I always thought, really? It's still that high? I thought so as well, but it's still, Well, I would have never guessed it to be so heavily 70% non-commercial. Really? I would have never. No, I wouldn't have.
    27:23
    I'm not, especially post-pandemic, I'm not as surprised about that number just because so many locations went under. That's true. And it also made me think, well, it's no wonder they're pushing this other level of pinball machine in the home pin. if over 70% is non-commercial, of course they're going to try to squeeze out, well, where can we grow within that home market environment? I did like the part, and I didn't know if you were going to touch on it, but it seemed there was a part in the interview where Gary kind of let slip that he thinks the pen is still too expensive. Yeah, because the interviewer kind of was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. But do you think they could ever get the bomb down on the pen? I don't see it. I mean, there'd have to be more significant changes to it. Like, one of their points of pride right now is that the play field is the same size as a standard pinball machine's play field. That might have to be the compromise. See, and I think that's a good thing to keep. I don't, well, yeah. It's like, because if you change too much, it becomes a mere toy, right? Not a close approximation to a piece of commercial equipment. So, I don't know what else you could really sacrifice. I wonder where that threshold is, though. And where's the threshold between it being a real pinball machine and a toy? Boy, that's tough. Well, for some people, the threshold is already what the difference is, and that is there's no ability to operate it. There's no coin mechanisms. There's no software to – well, maybe the software is in there to let you have coin mechs, but you can't route it because it's not capable of being routed. And it's as simple as that. That's the threshold people use. Yeah, but I don't like that one because you don't have – Of course you don't. Well, you don't have to – just because something accepts coins doesn't necessarily mean that it's not pinball.
    29:14
    Well, I didn't – there are others that would say they're all toys, Dennis. You're being silly by acting like one isn't a toy. Technically, I would agree with that. I'm talking about the feeling of pinball. Utilization of that size ball, I would think it's pinball. By that definition, like the one, the little America girl doll pinball is pinball then. Because, I mean, it scores. Yeah, but there's something in there that falls outside of pinball.
    29:44
    We'll have to expand upon that in another episode. No, let's never revisit that. Might be fun. Gary Stern was talking to this individual about their different tiers, different models of their cornerstones. talked about pro premium and le and he said there's a thousand le's for each of the game but the way he discussed it it sounded almost like a new standard to me i could be wrong but uh he's like there's a thousand le's just very you know very matter of fact and i'm like well i can almost guarantee that next game is going to be a thousand le's it's probably i think it's probably safe to say that it's the new baseline for le's like they're going to default to assuming they're going to do 1,000 LEs, and maybe their market research is saying, ah, this license might be a little weak. Let's scale it back to 750 on this one. As we've seen significant changes in the marketplace over the last three months, Dennis, I'll ask you this. Do you think it's a smarter idea, or what do you think Stern may do if they know that a change has to be made either on price or on unit distribution for their limited edition models? Do you see them keeping the same price and backing off of the units produced or keeping that 1,000 standardization of LEs and reduce the price?
    31:01
    I think they'd adjust the price. Okay. I have a hard time thinking they'll ever go backwards on price. Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I just don't necessarily think that. Why would they go back on the number of units made? I'm struggling with that. It might be a slippery slope, though, if they go back on the money because then people consciously or subconsciously might think, well, I'm going to hold out because if it doesn't sell well, they might reduce it. Yeah, but again, in the whole history of the hobby, that's only really happened on dogs, on dog themes, dog games. In any other business, it's normal to think that there will be like a fire sale on stuff that's not moving. That's a good point. Yeah, that's true. Stern, you know, this stuff that's happening lately is much more a recent phenomenon. And that being said, as you know, Stern doesn't – like they don't warehouse a bunch of games. They do not. No. That's the dealer's job. They really operate on this more – right. It's the dealer's jobs. But again, that only goes so far. They do a certain amount of – we're going to have orders and we're going to build the order. So they're doing build the order. And because of that, they just don't typically have lots of surplus games. so I don't think it's an issue and if they drop the price what I think if they felt they needed to what they would probably do would be they drop the price and be like okay this is going to go down but the obviously all the other LEs that sold at the old price so it's still going to be a factor and all the other older games might even hold their own pricing outside of the LE models and they'd only drop on the new you know I could envision a world just like how you for up until the start of this year you could get Deadpool little cheaper than you could Godzilla, even though they were going to have the same build date. Yes. Anyway, it's tough to say. Very true. I find it just so amusing and interesting that Stern Pinball always finds a way to allow other companies to take risks and chances, and then they just sit back and observe how that goes down. It just feels like that with me, especially the recent release by Jersey Jack Pinball Toy Story 4, where JJP bumped up the LE number, as well as significantly increasing the price of the collector limited edition as well, but more so on the collector edition. Stern kind of just, they're always positioned perfectly to sit back and be like, we're kind of at a crucial crossroads here in the market over the last two years. We're going to allow another company to throw their hat out there and let's see if there's arrows that go into that hat or if that hat's fought for to uh to put on people's heads that's uh that's simply a byproduct of being the market leader we see the same things that uh in in politics okay and yeah i'm sorry pulling political science records what about what about watching but when people are in the lead people in the lead they don't take risks because you're already winning so why do you care you only take the risk when you're in trouble i see so why should stern They have 85% of the market. So, of course, let JJP take the risk. Stern has everything to lose and very little to gain if the risk play goes bad for them. Whereas a little wannabe startup company, they need to get footing. They need to get ground. So they're going to make big moves because they have to. They're weak. Is that why you still encourage me to do pinball market trends every week? I don't really encourage it. I don't really discourage it very much either. I'm just – I mean part of it is you – and you get this because of your psychological analysis background that you come from before you just became a mere salesman. The – you kind of need market trends. Oh, no. To you, it's so critical that you have the most popular segment in all of podcasting, and you've carried it for so long. It dates all the way back to the Twip podcast. So you're very needy and dependent on it, and that's why you feel so threatened by more successful segments like Rumor Corner. Oh, I see. That's my analysis, and I took one whole psych class. You can trust me. Very good analysis. Now I want to put you on Benzedone. No, maybe skewed a bit. I thought it was just a byproduct, just a natural result of my abilities. It's something that almost like Superman was born, and it's not like he chose these powers. I mean, it's just – Well, and the concept – I'm more of a Superman than a Batman when it comes to content creation, I think, is what I'm trying to say. The concept of market trends is a very strong concept. I give you full credit for it. One might argue I've poached a similar strategy for my wristwatch YouTube and have found I make a lot more ad money talking about the market than I do anything else. The difference, of course, is that I believe in putting real analysis behind it, not just antidotal kind of back with Pepperidge Farm remembers when this price was this. But it's up $800 now because I saw one ad that said so. You know, that's like that. Falling asleep now. Who decides what games are made? What a cute question.
    36:15
    Who decides Stranger Things? Bob. Who decides Metallica? Bob's in one of those cubicles, and that's what he does. Bob's just solid. He's fucking solid. Bob has been pretty good. Once Bob understood that licensing is everything, other companies may want to hire Bob.
    36:32
    Bob knows all about the Twitter trends. Yeah, so who decides what games are made? Basically everybody. It's product development. It's Jody Dankberg and licensing. It's co-owner Dave Peterson. It's marketing department, sales department. It's everybody.
    36:46
    Man, that's the one meeting that I would – that's like the make a wish thing for me. I would love to be able to sit in on those meetings. The one party that he didn't list is one that was utilized heavily in the past decades of the pinball industry, and that's the distributor.
    37:09
    We're selling these games. the sales department. I guess they're... Yeah, the sales department talks to you guys and you guys give the sales department feedback, right? You are sharing with the sales department, aren't you, Zach? Sure. No, you're not. That's what you just indicated. We're sharing with the sales department, but it doesn't feel like it goes... I mean, they're not listening to the distributor. You want a two-way street? You're an outsider. You just got a distribution contract. But they used to in the past, though. That's my point. Well, but in the past they'd also be like, well, we're going to build 4,500 of these and then move into the next game.
    37:45
    Maybe distribution got too influential in the past. Yeah, maybe you all are in your proper place now.
    37:53
    Maybe somebody quit being the largest earned dealer and made their own company and they're a little gun shy. I don't know. Yeah, back when they could get like champagne edition monopolies and stuff.
    38:07
    What a winner that was. Bruce Nightingale owned like Vetnor Avenue or something. Very excited. He's still at gmail.com. Tell us what you have. Poor Bruce hates like every Pat Lola game. But boy, you bring up Monopoly. Oh, that's a good game. That's a good game. I'm like, fuck, come on, Bruce. That's because it's got that 360 spinny flipper that like feeds waterworks. Oh, shit.
    38:34
    Sorry. Bruce is like, it's not fucking Vetnor. I don't have the light blue ones. It's a good one, damn it. It's a Marvin Gardens. That's a yellow one.
    38:46
    They also discussed, I love that this individual was bringing up all the things that I've been screaming for the last year. So he brought up things like Stranger Things IP because Gary mentioned a couple games they've worked on, and they got lit up. Oh, Stranger Things, yeah, that's a fucking hot title commodity in IP right now. and gary even did mention yes he agreed how hot that property is right now hotter than hansel so hot i also like that with that part of the interview because the guy was kind of like now you had to involve other people with like deciding to do the super hot stranger things right because you're so old you're surely you remember because that's how it came across to me It's like you're too old to know Stranger Things, right? It's just ironic that it is just what an on-fire property right now. And they're not in production. They're, man. I'm sorry. There's too much demand for Toho's Godzilla.
    39:50
    If you could wave a magic wand and put into production Star Wars, I mean what a evergreen freaking license or Stranger Things would you still go Star Wars I mean that's hard for me to say because they've been still built I mean aren't they they've been building Star Wars fairly consistently still right it's still been coming out so I would say Stranger Things is what needs to be on the line right now well you'd have to re-up the license though would it be worth that or just roll with the Star Wars given the season four thing yeah I'd probably they would have gone ahead and re-upped it.
    40:28
    I think I would have as well. I think it's more hindsight, though, because nobody knew. Obviously, yeah. Nobody knows if Stranger Things 4 was going to be a flop or like, eh, it's a Walking Dead now. Like, people are done with it. I mean, like right now, there's not another major Star Wars. I know that Disney Plus is turning out the Star Wars TV shows, but that's not, I don't think that's really going to move original trilogy-themed games. So I just, I think it's, yeah, I would have, I would prioritize Stranger Things. I just think it's, it's, as was noted, it's so hot right now. It's probably going to start breakdance fighting. Well, and because it's hot right now, going back and trying to re-up that license may be a little bit more pricey too. Maybe, but I mean, like a whole bunch of other companies are beating down the door to do their own version of Stranger Things. That's true. What I do think, Dennis, and this is just a guess, I think prior to season five coming out, the final season of Stranger Things, the conclusion, I think you may see a Stern Pinball re-up that license. Yeah, they may vault it.
    41:33
    Wait and see there. He talked about all kinds of things regarding licensing, Gary said, and he just admitted it. He's like, look, we have a great relationship with Marvel. We introduce a Marvel game every two years. We introduce a Lucasfilm Star Wars every two years. We introduce a music pin every year, two years, year and a half. So he said sometimes they'll do product themes like Harley Davidson. But that was interesting to hear him boldly claim that because that's what it felt like the pattern has been. But now I'm thinking, okay, well, what Marvel game is next? And what's the last Marvel game that we got, Avengers Infinity Quest? Yes. So we're probably due for one next year. Yeah. Or this year.
    42:16
    Venom. Maybe. When was Avengers Infinity Quest? No, that was two years ago, wasn't it? Yeah, it was a couple back. That was a couple of Elwins ago. 2020. 2020, because Godzilla is 2021. There you go. We haven't had an Elwin this year. Boom. So that leans into that. Lucas and Star Wars every two years. Mandalorian was early last year. so maybe we get something early next year from the Star Wars. Hopefully not book a Bubba fit because that was awful. Yeah, Obi-Wan was great, but... It was okay. I don't think it's strong enough for a pinball machine, though. Well, I mean, I'm trying to think what else. There's not been as many... They're probably just hoping for something. Well, they've got some other shows in the works. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Because they turned around Mandalorian really quick. Remember that? They had to go from episode to episode to develop that. Leave a space here on the back glass for this, or we're going to cancel this person, so let's keep her out of the game. He talked about sports as a theme for pinball. He said sports are difficult. They've tried them in the past. They're difficult. I can very much see how that's the case. I could see another manufacturer if they were only focused on one particular market that was domestic to them doing sports. But Gary had solid arguments for why. They have such a large export market that it's a – well, it's like it's part of the – though this is not a sport. I'm going to bring it back because callbacks are so critical. That was part of the problem with Popeye. Europe didn't care about Popeye. They didn't know him. No, but he was trying to save the world. They don't care. They don't know who he is. And Python Angelo wasn't from America, so that's somewhat foreign to them. I'm never going to say Popeye's bad, so I'm sorry.
    44:07
    Okay. I'm not trying to make you. Gary said, everything is harder today in licensing. Everything. It's not as easy as it once was back in the CSI days.
    44:18
    So, Gary, you have Star Wars now, and you're comparing it to some of the shit you had in the past? Like Monopoly? It's like the frustration was now they all know that their licenses are worth money, so they want a slice of it, whereas in the past they were like using, hey, this is a good way to market our thing is through pinball. Sure. Independence Day. People will come see it because they'll see the pinball machine.
    44:41
    You know what I wouldn't mind saying? I wouldn't mind a revitalization of the Tolkien into a... I don't know. Craig Bobby talked about the Amazon stuff. I wondered if we would. If we'll finally get our Lord of the Rings vault because of the TV show. And they redo the art around the TV show. If the TV show hits.
    45:02
    If it hits. Or the upcoming... I mean, I'm an EGP fan. The upcoming Golem video game. Yeah. That's been released now, hasn't it? No, it got delayed. Surprise, surprise. It needs polish. Golem didn't look sneaksies enough. Oh. And tricksy. You're polygonal. I mean, the Hamilton says my Schmeagle is awful. Five out of ten.
    45:28
    Precious. She messaged me. She's like, your Schmeagle's a five out of ten. I think that's what she said. She said it was bad.
    45:39
    I'm giving myself five out of ten. I told her I'm doing the book version. Yeah, but – I don't know if that's a good enough cover. The entertainment value is a ten out of ten. Ten out of ten. The individual is asking Gary Stern about, well, are there other competitors? Do other people make pinball machines? I love his response. He's like, yeah. I mean, he said there's some. He said, quote, few people in Europe trying to make them, end quote. He even talked – he was describing Mike at Home Pin as kind of a, quote, non-starter in his opinion. So, yeah. Did you notice one glaring exception? What's that? We didn't bring up Jersey Jack. Really? Anyone in America.
    46:24
    Oh, yeah, there are a few Europeans. He's thinking like Pedretti contract builds for Pinball Brothers. and he's he's thinking of like there's a haggis thing in australia maybe yeah you know vague semblance of haggis is oh you mean across the street no i don't is there oh chicago and not just gj not just jjp but chicago gaming that's right or he's like oh i thought our senior designer uh steve richie i just thought he retired he just didn't show up one day i didn't know he was making oh i dropped what he was making there oh Oh, I liked looking around in Gary's office. I think that was Gary's office. Do you know that?
    47:06
    It looked like he was moving in or moving out of wherever they were. Yeah, I think it was his office. There were boxes and it was cluttered. Yeah, he had behind him. I was like, what pinball machine is that? It was a Beatles Diamond Edition in the background.
    47:21
    Also in the background, behind the interviewer was something near and dear to me. It was a signed by Bob Gale to Gary Stern movie poster of Back to the Future 3.
    47:38
    The cowboy one, yes. The cowboy one. But what does that mean, Dennis? What does that mean? He's got a good relationship with Bob Gale. Bob Gale's got a great relationship with Joe Kamenkao. Maybe. Why would he have it in his office if he wasn't going to reproduce it? Because it's signed. Yeah, but why? It's memorabilia. You only have so much real estate on your walls. It's just a wall thing. It doesn't have to all be about upcoming. Like, I don't think he puts all. Does he have a little poster of Baby Yoda in there, too? I mean, come on. Maybe he did. No. I don't know. And besides, they're not going to do Back to the Future 3. That's a JJP move. Oh, man. That's just so easy for you at this point. It's going to be easy forever. So easy. Especially after Jack went on Saps and was like, no, we chose to do this. It's all part of the plan. Oh, no. oh yes so hey but the interviewer did flat out ask about back to the future yeah and he which you Gary Stern said it's a pretty dated title right now and he's absolutely right and they shouldn't do it it is it's so old he was so wrong you were so wrong that the interviewer was like was like kind of scared of Gary Stern the whole time he was intimidated by him, but even the interviewer at that point was like, what the fuck are you talking about, Gary? He said, quote, still, Back to the Future holds some weight, I think. Even he retorted back. Wait a minute, Gary. Please don't think that. That's basically what he was saying. I'm not even in pinball, but I know how great this license is, so I'm going to potentially mess up this interview just to look up for this IP.
    49:26
    I read a little bit much into that, but he did push back on the notion and kind of expressed that he thought that there would be a sales demand for it. I messaged Dwight Sullivan right away.
    49:38
    I said, Dwight, look, I just watched that Gary Stern interview and he called it dated. Dwight, my heart is broken. You know what Dwight's response was? Nothing. I think he has you on ignore. No he doesn He a buddy He said yeah man I sorry He said I think it would be great It okay What did I say listener If nobody makes Back to the Future I will
    50:05
    I'm waiting for your version of Sonic. Someone has that license, and it ain't Stern. That's what I've heard. He was asking about how much does it cost for some of these licenses, like Sonic the Hedgehog. I was cracking up. And Gary said, there's one intellectual property that they made an agreement that the licensing fee would just be 10 games. And I thought, damn, that's cheap. Who was that? That was back in the day, though. Yeah, he acted as if that was part of his argument of, you know, back in the day, we could just throw pins at people and they gave us licenses. What license would only cost the total of 10 games? That doesn't seem like much because back in the day, what, were they probably five grand apiece or $50,000 license? Well, no, I thought we were talking way back, like the data east. days. Like 10 RoboCops. Oh, I see. Just different production notes. You guys will have to go watch this interview. He's talking about making Rush and they had a plan to make 800 to 1,000 pros, then move on to 1,000 LEs, followed by hundreds of the premiums, but within two days they changed the plan because of supply chain issues that he talked about continuing, like the chip shortage. He said they use that same chip as the Ford F-150s do. They aren't going to get that priority there. What I did take away from that is, again, quantitatively, listeners, there's another little note, nugget that Gary's giving us for those of us who are interested. We know the number of LEs that they make, and we know they build them all at once. But to know also that prior to they make about 800 to 1,000 pros, that's interesting information because I would assume that that's probably typical for all their releases because they all do roll out pretty similarly. Overall, Dennis, the dude's 77 years old. He's still sharp. Gary still gets it. Yeah, no, he was solid in the interview. I'm still thinking back on the games. There was a part where they talked about Mike Myers getting a bunch of games for Austin Powers. Buying a lot for his co-stars. But he bought those. That didn't sound like that's part of the licensing. Anyway, yeah, it was an interesting interview. You bought a Godzilla premium. I did, but not because of this interview. Have you got a billion yet? No. I still haven't either. Travis was like, you need to stream. So I streamed on Friday for two hours and 45 minutes. Travis never came. I didn't know that. Why aren't my notifications on? Well, maybe you don't subscribe. Maybe you didn't click that bell. Are you part of the pinball network? Maybe you didn't smash that like button. I didn't see the TPN notification. I'm not on TPN. I know. That's the problem. We need to get you over there. What's it going to take to get you into this network? No, no. I'm just here for podcasting. Streaming is too hard. Yeah, streaming is too hard. A lot of people have been buying Godzilla premiums. A lot of people have been waiting for Godzilla. I know. They're online right now. We just received our allotment. The premium. But the pros are, too. There were some pros that squirted out of the factory a week or so ago. There's some more pros coming. I think they just have them on both lines right now. I just think they're just running concurrently. They're just running premiums and pros now online at Stern Pinball. I've been hearing talk about more Jurassic Park toppers. So much so that I can now report to you guys the production update accessory for Jurassic Park Topper and the armor. Armor's been out for a long time, that Jurassic Park armor, the die-cut stuff. Mmm, juicy. They've shipped, or at least ours have shipped. We now have them in stock on our website, ready to go. Jurassic Park Topper. They did see a little price bump, just like an Iron Maiden did. $7.49.99 and $2.49.99, respectively, for the topper and armor for Jurassic Park. Goatmania, baby. It's not special now because everybody gets Goatmania with Insider Connected, but whatever. That's Stern Pinball. Oh, newcomer here. Oh. Puzzle. Yeah, puzzles. Master of puzzles. Cryptics. Deeproot morphs into Turner Pinball. That a video. If you guys are interested, you can go watch. Turner guy, who I believe bought all of the insurance policies, pennies for the dollar, and he gave away a train's light and talked about his goals going forward with Turner Pinball.
    54:16
    I have no need to discuss this. Dennis, we good? Yeah. Okay. Jersey Jack Pinball. Hey! A note here says, Zach played his ass off on Thursday night with Joel. You did. I saw this. Reached the wizard mode on Toy Story 4.
    54:31
    Huh. Yeah, you brought a Toy Story 4 for Joel to, because you, flipping out Pinball, Paul supplies Joel Engelberth with pinball machines that he plays on stream. Yep, every other Thursday. That was a good time. Thank you for hanging out. Yeah, well, a lot of people were there. I think at one point I saw on Twitch like 130. Yeah. And you had high numbers up 90 plus for most of it. I think our analytics showed 156 was the highest peak. So not bad for pinball. But, you know, I missed ball one. Okay. It wasn't much. Yeah. I got the bottom. And so then I come in, and you're playing, and you're playing, and you're playing. And I'd already seen the photos, Zach, of you and Joel setting up the game. So this was like a freshly set up game, unboxed, set up. And then you're sweating everywhere. I was sweating. Complaining about it was so hot. And Joel is like putting on a parka, and he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. It's like 69 degrees in here. I don't know. And then you're at the wizard mode. That I said wasn't easy to get to. Yeah. Wait.
    55:42
    Yeah. That was a lot of fun. I was in the moment. I was in the zone. You ever get in the zone? Auto zone, yeah. Get in the zone. Auto zone. Is that how it goes in your region? I think so. Yeah. I was in the zone and didn't think there was a snowball's chance in hell for me to get to the wizard mode. I didn't think Joel was going to get to it either but we played one game that night because I blew it up and it made the game look easy because everybody was like well this dumbass sure doesn't know how to play pinball so of course it's too easy you don't go play competitive you don't talk a lot about scores and completion and all that and then here you are and you had a very good performance now in defense of settings and features afterwards i went downstairs to my godzilla premium and tried to see if i could turn on infinite mothra but apparently godzilla lacks that option did you hit the captain ball maybe anyway it was very it was very impressive um and now i just like everyone else who was in the stream don't need to buy it because i've seen it so thanks for that it's so unusual for a distributor to be like, here, look at this game. It's $12,000. Let me show you how hard it is by going to the wizard mode on game one. Well, I mean, I could have been like some of those Stern reveals and just sandbagged. Maybe you should have. Maybe you should have carried some sand. I'm a better enthusiast than I am a businessman, I think. Maybe you are. Maybe it's all about integrity and honesty for me and I only report the facts. I only perform the facts. You know? Maybe. Maybe that's the thing. Yeah. Maybe left out lanes don't lie.
    57:31
    Maybe, Dennis. Maybe left out lanes don't lie. And they do if you have the infinite. That thing needs to be nerfed a bit. That would be my one thing. That needs to be nerfed. But, dude, those out lanes are brutal. You saw Joel play it. It's cheaper. Why'd they program that? It's cheaper just to close the out lane off with rubber. I don't understand. Man, it played so phenomenal, though. It played well all night. Nobody really that was making any complaints about what they were seeing or what they were hearing. I don't know. I had a blast with it. I didn't get through. Now I'm itching. I want to get through that second one. It's just the same stuff. No, you take the different path, but it's the same kind of stage process, a little bit more difficult. I noticed that going through it the second time, the modes were harder. They were significantly harder. So, no, I'm going to have a lot of fun with that thing. And then trying to complete all of them, I don't think I'll ever do that. But Travis said he did. He was able to complete their seven tasks, complete, not just start, all 14 tasks. He claimed that nothing happened, but I will say I talked to Joe Katz, and there is stuff that does happen. If you complete tasks, your multipliers go up in the wizard mode as well as you get additional attempts in the wizard mode as well. So it's more of a points-based thing based on the performance you have during the mode. So it is true that things do happen. I, I'm still digging that game, man. Still digging it. It's getting, it's getting hated on. I can't wait till you get your hands on one. Cause I truly, I truly think you're going to like it a lot. I do. Well, the layout looks good. Uh, I do think one of our operators did end up getting one. So I haven't heard yet if it's on location though. Yeah. Maybe eventually to me, I was thinking about it more and it feels like if people like Willy Wonka, they'll like this, but it feels like the wizard mode is basically the, I would say, the second golden ticket. That's what it feels like to me, obtaining that second golden ticket on Wonka. And then I would imagine the subsequent second half of that wizard mode would probably be like getting that fourth golden ticket. So whatever that's worth for people. But we gave away a lot of stuff, so I was happy to see. Well, we gave away a lot of stuff. Hundreds upon hundreds of dollars worth of stuff. Nicole was thrilled and Craig Bobby's cheers and poor Craig and then we had at the very end we were giving them away you guys have to go back and watch this thought we were doing a sing-along I call it a stream-along because I'm clever they had to sing Randy Newman's You've Got a Friend in Me ladies and gentlemen hello this is uh this is Flippin' Out Pinball who am I speaking with it's Moppy what it's Moppy no ladies and gentlemen from Puppet Pals. It's Moppy. It's me. I want to sing a song. Oh my gosh, she's going to melt my heart. Where have you been? Are you safe, Moppy? Are you safe? No, I'm not safe. I'm going to sing and maybe if I sing, don't let me go. Don't let me go if I sing my song. Moppy, I will come save you. Thank you so much for calling in. Can I? I want to hear your rendition of Randy Newman's You've Got a Friend in Me featured on Toy Story. My cat's back. You ready? I don't know. Stop it. Why don't you... You've got a friend in me. Oh.
    61:01
    You've got a friend in me. Amazing. When you're out of there. I'm a friend in your mind. Your mind and your mind's all day. Oh. You can't remember what you did. Call my name. You've got a friend in me. Is Rory there? I don't know, I'm sorry. Oh, my God, a fan to me. Oh, yeah. Is anybody else there? Rory or anybody? Man. I'm in a dream, sir. A dream? I'm just trying to fight. This cat didn't want me to sing. Man. First the wizard mode and now this. That's incredible. Wow. Moppy, I love you. I miss you. I love you. And I hope you win this, buddy. I really hope you win this. Thank you so much, and come back to us. Moppy, come back. Chat. You guys want Puppet Pals back. Pinball Brothers. I don't know if they were giving away anything. PB, reach out if you want to do a giveaway. Pinball Brothers had an update. Oh, did they? Yeah, looking on their social media. Producers of the hit Queen. I've been trying to figure out, like, are we going to see a gameplay video? What's the deal there? You don't need to. I've heard they've already been selling better than Legends of Valhalla. They have not been selling bad. but I still would like to see gameplay just for my own, you know, I don't know. I don't know when we're going to see them. They initially said September. Yeah, that's just right around the corner. The Rhapsody editions, they were taking full payment. They still are for September, but then pump the brakes because, yeah, I did see on one of their comments on their social media, somebody was asking about, well, they're coming out in September, so we'll be able to play. And they said, quote, yes, and we've repeatedly advised to hold your horses as manufacturing only begins in September. A lot of things can still go wrong. Think of international supply chains to China, for example. We wouldn't put any money on September. Pinball Expo is a better bet, but be sure that we'll announce it when the first machines are shipped. So that was a quote from them. That was a direct quote from their company. I love, I love. Let me tell you about love, Zach, because I am an expert. Please tell me. I love where they said we wouldn't put any money on September. But you made everyone else do it. That's right. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Attaway would have a lot to say about what is love with this. What a use of words here. We wouldn't put any money on, well. But you all. Your customers and dealers are. Obvious. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. So it sounds like they're aiming for end of October. I, well, it sounds like they're not committing to aiming for anything. Like, I can't tell what direction they're, it's like a shotgun. And there's like a side of a barn. Splatter. Will the shotgun be able to hit the broad side of the barn? I don't know. We don't know. How accurate are they? It has been advertised that the September tailgate party at Cointaker will have one. I guess it may be a prototype or maybe it's the first production model. I don't know. So people were asking, like, where's the video at? We want to see some gameplay video. They also commented on their social media saying the following, quote, we would like to see gameplay too, but the video is just not yet ready to show. The editing takes quite some time. It will be there shortly. Keep in mind that the time of this announcement relied a lot on a major band with their much busier schedule than ours. So we hope you can be patient a few more days. I like this quote as well, Zach, because this part also says that they just aren't very busy.
    64:36
    They being the not band. I guess aliens are just flying out because clearly Pinball Brothers is just not a busy company. Aliens are still shipping, still going. Well, it's Pedretti really, isn't it? Well, they are the contract manufacturer, yes.
    64:52
    I guess that's why. I guess if you contract everything out, you too can also run a not busy company. Yeah, it's interesting to me that the editing takes quite some time. What kind of video do you think we're going to get? I'm assuming a highly polished one if they're spending that much time editing the gameplay. I'm hoping so. It'll be there shortly and then be patient a few more days. In your translation speak, the video they're aiming to get out in October. A few more days doesn't feel like October to me. Where did it say a few more days? So we hope you can be patient a few more days.
    65:28
    So we hope you can be patient a few more days. It's just a few more days until October. Well, it's all relative, I suppose. I don't know. I don't know when we're going to see that. I'd like to see it. I did find it interesting. They noted the credits to this game, who designed it, coded it, et cetera. And there are some positive points here. They're attributing the game design to an Alexander Spore, but also the initial game design to Barry Ousler and Dave Sanders. Right. Okay. Art was done by Stephan Akin. Graphics and animation, Kelly Mazurowski. Screen design, Arik doing screen design. We know that name from his artwork for Alien. What does screen design mean, though? Is that the animations on the screen or what? Graphics and animations, Kelly. That's why I'm confused. Screen design. Maybe he is kind of like Keith Elwin does with he doesn't code the game, but he gives the rules. He tells the coder kind of what it should look like. Maybe that's what screen design is. Like this Kelly Mazurowski may not be an expert on what pinball interfaces need to look like. So he's helping design that. Like you need to animate something here or you need to do a transition from here to here. But the one that interested me the most was rules programming, Joe Schober. Now, Joe Schober, we know, did Alien Pinball, the rules, and that has been heralded as a great code set. We also know Joe Schober is working with American Pinball, question mark? I think he's contracted over there. Last I heard, yes. So that gives me a little bit of hope there. Because I think what I said when I was doing an analysis last week, listener, if you remember, I said, I think the rules are going to kind of come down to the rules on this. Because the theme itself is dynamite. The art mixed. The layout mixed. You're going to need another big old platinum push for this game to be a declared winner, a hit. Now, is Alexander the designer? Is he one of the pinball bros? I do not know. Because he's listed down as executive producer as well.
    67:40
    With Daniel Jansen. Maybe those are the brothers, Dan and Alex. I don't know. There's a big question mark still in this game. What was your analysis of the game itself? I heard a little bit on EGP. Overall, your one-sentence synopsis of what Queen looks like? I think I described it on the show layout-wise was meh. Okay. That's kind of how Joe looked. I think it looked uninspired. So, basic. My rebuttal would be, I agree, but it is hard to see ball paths in a lot of ways. So until we get a video, it's going to be tough. It didn't look like it was a bad shooter. It had some elements that were pretty standardized, I would say. The upper play field, though, is a big question mark. And, of course, how the rules have you engaged with the play field will mean a lot. So my only real area of concern were the three shots that are blocked by drops. I always find that a little suspicious that I won't like it, but that was the only real red flag I had. And I did learn that one of those paths that I was ignorant to last week, the one with the lion insert on it, that's actually a ramp. So it's just hidden by the upper play field, but it's the ramp that leads up to Wembley for the locking balls. So there's that. Do you think Pinball Brothers is stopping after Queen? I heard your argument on that, and it was interesting. During the Pinball Network live stream on Wednesday. Yes. And the reason I bring it up is not that I have some sort of hidden knowledge or anything, but I actually had someone else reach out to me. Actually, it was Jason Knapp because I know he has an article on it. And he seemed to kind of be arriving at that question independent. I don't think he saw the Wednesday thing. And because he arrived at it independently, it makes me wonder – we must not be the only ones thinking this. Wondering about – I mean they've been doing – they're doing – it seems like they're doing Highway's greatest hits. And that makes sense because they made sure that they kept those assets when Highway went away. But outside of a very, very, very barely worked on Playboy, there ain't anything left out of Highway after Queen. because Alien was done and Queen was mostly done. So that's where I think you could have Alexander come in and tweak the game design. Maybe the rules were already primarily done by Joe, or Joe might be contracted to help finish it. I don't know. I think the answer to this is pretty simple. If they're making a good return on Queen, they can find a – I hate to minimize it. They can find a designer. I mean, they've got a team right here. Yeah, I mean they could, but if they've made enough, I mean I just – I don't know. But it's a good point that they may be – It doesn't look like they've made any attempts to bring the manufacturing in-house, so they've contracted that out, and it looks like all of their design stuff is hired gun contractors too. So what is the company other than two owners? I would think that this will be a make or break, and the big question mark for me would then be licensing because if you're trying to break even on the assets and some of the materials you already had, I can see them calling it quits after this. But if this does seem to be profitable, then I think you may see a big delay in trying to secure another license if they haven't already done so. because if they are questioning this, then they probably haven't jumped into bed with a licensor yet, I wouldn't think, because they know that they've got a lot of aliens to make, a lot of queens to make, so they have a little bit of time here. But they're going to have to make that educated guess here probably pretty soon if they haven't already come to terms with having to figure this one out pretty quick. And as we heard with Gary Stern over on the whatever that show was, the Dog Walkers podcast or whatnot, these European companies, it's tough for them. Shipping is expensive. Yes, and it's not like there's a big, robust pinball manufacturing industry over there. No, you're in the middle of nowhere. I mean, hell, it was hard enough for people in Texas to build pinball, right?
    71:48
    Chicago's kind of where it's at. It's almost like a... I think even with Spooky, and they're not all that far away. No, they're a quick drive, yeah. Not the easiest place to find workers. Chicago Gaming's got it figured out. They're not New Jersey Gaming Company.
    72:04
    Yeah, yeah. Craig Bobby reporting some whispers of continued delays over at Chicago Gaming Company on Cactus Canyon Remake, saying that they're still having trouble securing the parts for the SE Plus and the LE toppers for CCR. Zach, what is it about the topper that's so hard? I don't know. Is it using the chip from the F-250 or what?
    72:28
    Like, what's going on? I don't get it. Damn topper. You're a distributor for them. Tell me. What's in it that's making it so hard? It's game-ception, man. It's a game within a game. I don't understand.
    72:43
    Oh, shit. Craig Bobby, look. Craig Bobby is talking about the possibility of CGC actually shipping SE Pluses, jumping the line and making SE Pluses go out before the LE models, and that would be because they would ship the SE Pluses without the topper, and then later on, once the parts have been secured, then shipping out that topper. I don't know how in the hell that's going to work from a sales distribution standpoint. I don't even want to think about it. But what is your take on this rumor? Okay. A couple takes. We'll roll it all into one take. Okay. All right. I do think it makes sense that if the holdup is toppers, and let's assume that they're basically done with, question mark, sending out the SEs, that rather than stopping shipping, they should continue to send products out. And the notion of a standalone topper being sent separate, that's hardly an insurmountable thing. People are going to have to attach it separately anyway. True, true. So that I think is okay. I don't understand that you doing the last model you announced for sale, the SE Plus, overdoing the LEs. If it really is just the topper, that's the problem. So why not send the LEs out, Zach, and then send the toppers for them alongside or before the SE Pluses? Because I get it that the SE Plus is just the SE when you don't have the topper. But if there's no other problem building the LEs – people ordered the LEs a long time ago. Why not get the LEs built and send them and then send them the topper separate? Like, what's the logic? I don't get it. Like, what's the logic? I don't know what the logic is. I mean, it feels like they're probably thinking, well, when we initially announced two models, SE and an LE, the LE came with everything, all the bells and whistles. They're the special. Collectors are really going to care. That's why they went in for an LE because they really care about the details. Right. I agree. We don't want to ship a game. and this is all again speculation if it's even true but we do not want to ship an LE game without the topper because that is a big piece of the pie as to why those LE buyers even went in in the first place it the only reason that they bought the SE The only thing different is that the SE and the SE Plus is the topper You 100 right Literally it the only reason to get an SE Plus was the topper Do you think that the LE buyers are going to be upset by this if it becomes true? Or do you think that they're like, you know what, with some of the leg issues, I think I'll be all right? I think they will be upset. Would you want to say, I don't know, I'm like that. I don't know if I would want my LE if the topper wasn't ready. I do not.
    75:25
    I mean, sure, there are going to be some people like you that care more about the topper than the game. That's a big selling point for me for that title. But for the rest of us human beings, normal people who ordered a game almost a year ago, I'd be like, where's my effing game? Get me my game. I play the game, not the topper. I can add the topper later. Get me my game. Why am I waiting so long? over why is the topper stopping me from enjoying the game? What I have worried about, and I have voiced this to CGC, was I'm worried about this constant influx of SEs because they are building. They are building pretty regularly. I mean, I would say that most every distributor in the world and the country has fulfilled their SEs plentiful. I'm worried that you have some of these SE Plus buyers that are like, look, I've got new shiny things in the corner in my peripheral here. I'm just going to go with an SE, and you're going to see less SE pluses purchased in the future because people are like, eh, I wanted the topper, but I really don't want to wait any longer. I mean – And to go to compound off that idea, maybe that's why they are thinking – because the LE buyers aren't going to back out. They want their big all-in-one. The SE plus buyers may. So maybe – I'm just now thinking of it. That actually does kind of make sense. your le buyers are not going to back out those damn games hold value better than most anything in the industry se plus look i lock them in understood and they're i'm sure there are listeners who are in on an se plus i've never understood buying the se plus model if i remember right it was priced exactly the same as the le so to me it was a ridiculous skew to create where all you did was it's like oh i didn't get in on the le well i'm going to pay the exact same price is a super scarce one and all i'm going to get is is a topper and otherwise it's the standard it just it was a i i am shocked they sold any i'm not really because this is pinball and people but but i i don't care you you say a lot when you're like i'm gonna buy at the same exact price as the le and give up everything else and it was it wasn't like it was months later either it was So anyway, yeah, maybe. It's wild to me. If people are willing to go in on the SE Plus and pay that LE price for just the topper, then sure, they'd probably be willing to walk away the moment. But maybe they're the ones that clearly are all in just for the topper. So maybe you want to hold out and let them get the game with the topper by the same logic because we know the only reason they got the plus was the topper. It's not armor or anything else. There's only one difference. So the LA people will take what you give them. Typically, when we're reviewing the news like this, I always kind of have my thoughts beforehand. This is like one of the first times I'm like, well, wait a minute. I actually think that I'm making more sense to myself as I'm talking through it. So maybe, I don't know, maybe it isn't such a bad idea. The more I think about it, I might make the same decision if I'm going. Honestly, I would probably just try holding off. I would find a way to get those parts, even if I had to pay double and make less money, just so that I could start getting them rolling out, just to do that. I don't even know if I would ever ship anything that should come with a topper because I don't know how they're going to do it from a sales perspective. Am I supposed to take full amount for somebody that's not going to get what they paid for? And if so, am I going to charge them for an SE now but then require them to buy a topper? I don't know how that's going to work. What a mess. I don't know a lot of things in life. But there is one thing that I know for sure, Dennis. Dennis, we talked about forefathers and founders of pinball in the late Wayne Nines. Someone else very important in our country's history, Benjamin Franklin. Very wise man. He once said, nothing is certain except death and taxes and pinball market trends. Didn't he say that? probably not I think he did you want to fact check that I'll get right on that pretty sure he did oh BG I love you over there should have been a president he's too smart I think he wanted to go over and seduce French women instead you have different priorities bring it down you're the problem speaking of bringing it down what's all trending down because there ain't nothing trending up unless you're making something up. No, I'm not making things up. Members don't lie. I only report the facts here. Trending up this week is an oldie but goodie. It's Theater of Magic.
    80:06
    I was waiting for it. You have the magic. Why would you think I would ever say that? What's the guy say? The guy is the one that bothers me in that game. The theater awaits. Oh.
    80:24
    Who is that guy? Shoot the left orbit. He doesn't say that, but that's what you do. Who is that guy? I think he's on other games as well. Well, probably. And Circus Voltaire. I can juggle two balls all day.
    80:39
    And then he gets the third ball. Theater Magic is trending up. This sneaky little son of a bitch. I was doing the extensive research that I do each and every week for this segment. And I ran across Theater Magic. Somebody was asking. I said, wait a minute. Since when did that become a $10,000 game? And I went, and this guy's just smoking crack, went, looked at the comps, and I was like, okay, a couple for sale, all like $9,800?
    81:05
    What? These guys are behind on the times here. Let's look at the comps, ones that have sold before, extensive research. Wow. Oh, this game has consistently been selling in the 9,000s for quite some time. It has not seen a fall in the recent softening of the marketplace. Theater of Magic coming out of nowhere. How about that? It used to be like the stepchild to the Papaduke Greats, Circus Voltaire, and Tales of the Arabian Nights. Theater Magic was like that one beat, right? And then you had World Cup Soccer that was like the third level down. It just depends. World Cup Soccer doesn't have the quote-unquote Papaduke art package, so that's what always hurts it with collectors, even though it's by many people feel it's his best playing game, probably because so many people came in and saved him on it.
    81:57
    But Circus of Voltaire is usually up there, too, with gameplay. Why don't I have a Theater of Magic? I like Papadude games, but Theater of Magic never... Theater of Magic is probably his most straightforward shooter. So in some ways, like layout-wise, it probably feels like a lot of other games. It shoots so good. I love the toys. Well, yes, it does. I hate the Translight and the code. Like, the wizard mode sucks. Well, yeah, most games of that era have pretty, like, poor exploitable rules. You know, you time out all the modes and all that. Well, that's people who don't like having fun playing pinball. Ooh, sorry. A little harsh here for all the competitive players. The theater magic's trending up. Look, I would like to say something more contemporary, but I can't. Also trending up this week is the Wayne Nines Classics. All those that we were mentioning. As a tribute, I'd like to trend up the man who changed this industry and will always be remembered formally trending up Wayne Nines. Unfortunately, trending down this week. Look, I report the facts. I don't like to report this, but Toy Story 4.
    83:07
    Jump the gun. All because of you. No. I learned it from watching you, Dad. I learned it from watching you. From you. Toy Story 4 is going to take that same uh the Jersey Jack bath I was thinking path I don't like baths same path as a Wonka same path as a Hobbit for some reason you hobbyists out there I don't know if it's just Stern family it's something that just doesn't want JJP to succeed at times I don't know what it is I mean there may be some people that are motivated purely out of some sort of like spiteful thing. That seems so motivated. I don't know. I mean, with Jersey Jack, even though, and I don't align with this because I, you know, I think Dialed In, granted, I haven't played Toy Story, so Dialed In and Wonka are my two favorite players of theirs, setting that one Toy Story aside. But, you know, for a lot of people, they compare everything to Wizard of Oz and what all was in that game. Oh, that's a tough one. I think that's where a lot of it comes from, from people that would otherwise be very, very supportive of the company. and they don't like the direction that the company has gone since Wizard of Oz. Yeah, we've heard Jack Ranieri say himself their goal is to make every game that much better, every release that much better than Wizard of Oz, and I think they have succeeded in layouts on that every time. Wizard of Oz is not a smooth playing game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Toy Story 4, I am seeing on the secondary market people now trying to sell their CE spots or the LE spots. Seeing them, the LEs on the secondary market sell for a little bit less than that of a brand new in box one. We haven't seen that since its release, the first three weeks of its release. And we usually see, as people are still waiting for games, we see that hold pretty good. Think of things like Godzilla. Rush kind of dropped too. It's just a sign of the times, I suppose. But I'd be lying if I told you that Toy Story 4 was still training up as it was a couple of weeks ago because I think it will get back up there. But with the price tag that came out of the gate with, I expected to see this at some point. Maybe not this soon, but nonetheless, it's the cool thing to kick around right now. And there are a lot of people who will just jump on the bandwagon and start kicking the horse that's already taken the heat from a lot of people, but they just think that's cool to do. And Toy Story 4 is the casualty of that. So it's really the fault of the people. No, because I said the price is, yeah. It's hard to price something at the top of the industry and expect it not to fall quicker. It's kind of like the whole, you get the prices house in the subdivision, you don't want the most expensive house, you don't want the cheapest house either. You want to be right in between, like a stern premium. That's my point. The only thing that's funny is the people that do argue about, whatever they argue about Toy Story and why they don't like it, They'll refuse to say they dislike anything that is similar in respect to like code or rules or anything. Cracks me up. Oh, coincidentally, also trending down this week, irony.
    86:11
    Deafening, deafening irony. Such as someone using their place of employment, a marketing firm, to tear down the marketing of other companies such as Disney or Pixar or other manufacturers while also at the same time crying about IP infringement of others while launching a lazy merchandise line to make money off of, wait for it, ripped off intellectual property. All while sitting in the boardroom learning PowerPoint of your own employer who represents many of these large companies.
    86:46
    Deafening, deafening, fucking irony. You people make me laugh. Pinball Bounty's still healthy. Dolly, pardon. I thought someone found one. Yeah, but it wasn't quite nice enough for the price. Oh, okay. That's all. Somebody found me a beater, too, but I'm like, it's still, eh, if I'm getting a beater, I want a beater. If I'm getting a nice one, I want a nice one. I'm just here to report the facts because numbers don't lie, and neither do I, on Pinball Marketers.
    87:17
    Ah. All right, Dennis, let's wrap it up. What do you got going on today? Riding your bicycle. Bicycle. Yeah, I think if it doesn't rain here, get out there. Got to get on the road. What's your beef with riding in the rain? I fall. Really? On the trails. Yeah, the trails because they get mud on them. Oh. And I've done it before and I slip and slide. Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop. Slip and slide. Slipping and a sliding. Keeping and a hiding. Been told a long time ago. Like a freshly waxed Godzilla. I'm just like, whoa, missed the building.
    87:57
    I hit that wallop shot. You know, I'm having an issue with my guns. Maybe you can help me with it. Okay. So sometimes when I lock the ball in the building, the building doesn't seem to know that the ball is in the ball lock. But the opto's reading fine. Is it trying to kick it up? No. I have to wait for ball search. It, like, doesn't know that the ball's there. Oh, it doesn't know that the ball is in the box. And it seems to happen mostly on ball two lock. So I wondered if it was a software thing. A ball-to-lock would suggest that the building has lowered. Yes, the building is lowered. I've already locked a ball. Maybe impeding on the opto at that point for an entrance. I mean, maybe needed – I took my little microfiber cloth and made sure I didn't have – and there was something that I think had fallen, maybe some wax or something had gotten something in front of the opto. So I kind of cleaned that out. It's doing better, but it wasn't 100%. Yeah, I would say the one thing you can do, and this is in general for all the listeners for newer Stern games, make sure the optos are aligned. Make sure the wires on those little opto boards are secured well, and then trace those optos back. There should be a midpoint where there's a Molex connector with the game off. Pull that out. Receipt that. Also, when you're receipting it, look at those terminals, male and female ends. Make sure that they look like they're secure. Receipt that, and then keep following back to the node board. That would probably be node board nine, mid to bottom play field, universal node board, and reseat the connection of that opto on that node board. You could, and if that doesn't work, then you could just have a flaky opto. We have been seeing those recently here and there, flaky opto. We can get you out another opto to see. Or, if you're really industrious, you could swap that opto for another one to see if it's creating the same intermittency. clever troubleshooting there see I trained the wise Greg Bell oh thank you and this is why I have trusted flipping out pinball for all my Godzilla premium needs but yeah that's what I would try well thanks for the tips normally for me it's like if something works or doesn't it's easy it's always when it's kind of like optos can be trickses and all the switch tests it's been perfect every time so it's made me wonder well maybe game states It's confusing it. Yeah. But I'm not reading a bunch of other people whining that they're having the issues. Yeah, but that's a complex mech there, too, with that mechanical up and down. But it's so cool, I don't want to disable it. Yeah, well, I'm sure you will. We'll figure that one out. One time, back before I did my prior troubleshooting, I got Monster Zero, but I had to redo all my ball shots twice because in that, the ball search would never feed it into the lock. ultimately would disperse the ball out. So I have to make the shot again.
    90:51
    I did it too and I got my Monsters here. I still haven't broken a billion. I'm trying because I don't want to be like Joel. I'm in the 900s, man. Yeah, I got over 900. But that's not enough. It's not enough to be seen as great. Do you think I could win Toy Story 4 since you did it? I think so. You're a better player than me, so I'm not sure that I could. No, I think you are. You play more than me. I got the drop catches down there, don't I? Yeah, I do. Anyway, if people want to reach out to me, they can always email me, eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast and shoot a message through the messenger tool. Those are the easiest direct ways to get a hold of me. And everybody wants to hear the next EGP episode, to hear the latest installment of Rumor King. I have a rumor for it. But always write into the Eclectic Gamers if you've got new rumors because the song demands to be fed. The beast must feast. Can I get an update on your Jordan 3s? Please tell me you are not wearing those whenever you're out trekking around through the bike paths. No, they're on my shelf over here. I see them. Are they yellowing it? No. Oh, nice. They're bright. I keep them out of the sun and out of light. They're in the closet on a special shelf. You don't care. You're safe. Don't worry. Don't you fret. Can you promise me the next date that you go on that you'll wear them?
    92:06
    Sure, I'll promise you anything you want. You'll never know. You'll get laid if you do. I'll be required to just keep the shoes on and that's it.
    92:22
    You know there is a fetish out there for chicks wearing Jordans and everything. You probably know the industry term for it too. No, I don't. Like Jordanphilia or something.
    92:35
    Sneakrophilia. Sneakrophiliacs. No, it's got to be Jordan specifically. Oh, I guess. You'll be like, what is that, Reebok? She walks out. Hey, look, last year's I wore was an Adidas. I purchased an Adidas Ultraboost. I actually have been wearing mostly Adidas lately. Ultraboosts are great. 2.0s, if you can find them, even better. Straight down the middle, video series. Greg and I just recorded an episode, and we will have out very soon. Is it this or that? No, man. Greg was pushing that. I'm like, Dennis is the only person that likes those. He's like, no, it's a promise. People like them. That's fair, as Joel would say. It's a Toy Story 4 review. Oh. Uh-huh. The guys who sell the game giving a review of said game. Fascinating. People trust me. They know that numbers don't lie and I only report facts, so they're like, we get it. We understand. Did you do the recording after or before you did the Wizard of the World thing? I did it after. Oh, okay. So we expand upon that as well. Interesting. Mm-hmm. And you can also buy a brand new or used pinball machine from Flippin' Out Pinball. Flippin' Out Vault's coming soon. Man, I need to figure out Wix, figure out how to get a second e-commerce on the same. Product showcase this week are Jurassic Park accessories we talked about in the topper and the armor. Get those quickly, or I think we've been out of that stuff for like a year or so. Jump on those. And the die-cut armor itself, if you're ever looking to match up your LE, powder coats very nicely because it's die-cut. So you don't have to worry about that. It looks beautiful. We're also taking orders for Toy Story 4, both LE and CE spots. We have Mandalorian Pro and Premium in stock. We have an Avengers Pro, I believe, in stock, as well as a pre-owned one in stock. Rush Pro and Premium in stock. Guns N' Roses LE in stock. Cactus Canyon Remake SE in stock. Look at that. What a good dealer.
    94:22
    Insider Connected kits. We have the Pros. Don't get me started on the Premium kits. Alien pre-orders we're taking. Queen pre-orders we are taking. Still have Dennis' favorite Elvira 40th Anniversary No. 40. I can't believe my Deadpool LE hasn't sold yet. I'm warming up to it a little bit more. I've got my regular collection lineup now because I had a hole and I have to fit 10 sterns in my stern lineup. Right, right. That's what fits and I can't put anything else in there. My friends call me weird. But I'm warming up to it.
    94:51
    Rules wise though, it's still no deeper than Toy Story 4. But don't tell yourselves that. Don't allow yourselves to know the truth.
    95:01
    Corvette pre-owned. The pinball machine, not the car. Hopefully accessories are going to come out soon for Rush and Godzilla and Mando and the toppers. Shaker Motors we have in stock. A lot of people are out of those. Golden Tees in stock. Banners. Merchandise. Escalera. You know what?
    95:20
    What? Does Escalera use the chips that Tesla uses? I don't know what they're using. Why is the turnaround so slow on those? I don't know. They can't catch up. We have a couple extra maybe that we're getting that we ordered last year for shows. It didn't show up, so we might be getting those, so I might be able to help out a little bit. TPN last week, Ryan White from Chicago Gaming Company was premiered and featured on the Flippin' Out Pinball stream with Beattie and Gang. So go back and watch that if you want to see Ryan White and Beattie go after hours and act goofy and Beattie half drunk. That was fun. Myself and Joe Lingo-Burr streamed Toy Story 4, as we have talked about. Go watch that VOD. I did break it up for individuals that want to see just the killer game or if they just want to see the sing-a-thong stream-a-thong. And then the tutorial piece pulled by itself. The Aussie Pinball Podcast had another episode. He's Mr. Consistency all of a sudden with Rob Miller.
    96:13
    Yep, I got that downloaded to listen to. Is it Mia? When this episode comes out, I'm going to listen to it that day. Is it two L's turned into a ya? I don't know. Yes, in Spanish, yes. Mia. And this past week, the Silver Ball Super Social two-times tournaments occurred. You can go watch the bot on Fox Cities Pinball. This week, I don't know what's going on this week. I do want to send a nice reminder out to you listeners that NAPS Arcade has hit a lot of milestones here recently with followers and posts and such. And as a way to celebrate and honor that, he wanted to do a fundraiser for St. Jude's Children's Hospital, which is near and dear to many of our hearts. I know that. So if you have a second, if you can spare any expense, please go over to KnappArcade.org and follow the link so that you can donate and help out the cause. Because Jason Knapp's been giving this industry a lot, especially over the last year or two. I don't think it would hurt any of us to go for a darn good cause to go help out St. Jude at the same time. So do so today. All right, for Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. And remember, folks, if you're a distributor, perhaps of a major high-priced pinball machine, and you're going to go on a stream and you're going to play it, maybe when we're talking about $12,000-plus products, you don't go and blow up the wizard mode on the very first game and convince everyone that, hey, you know what? Maybe this isn't going to last a long time in my collection. It will!
    97:38
    Bolted! And always practice safe pinball. I appreciate you guys so much, and I need your help. Gary Stern indicates that Back to the Future is a data license just so the Stern Pinball knows this is quite rubbish. Email info at sternpinball.com and let them know how badly you want and would buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy a pinball machine themed around one of the greatest intellectual properties known in history. Back to the Future. Just info at sternpinball.com. We want Back to the Future. Please, Gary Bear, please. Talk to you all next week.
    98:15
    Yes. Yes. I don't know if you keep that one in. I'll take that one. It's fine. Sorry. I decided I'd get my bike water bottle out and put it in the freezer so I could have it frozen when I pedal out here later. Oh, you are going to bike. Okay. I think I just decided. It doesn't look hot out. Please tell me you have a little bell on the bar. I do. Do you really? I do have a bell. Not that type, though. Oh, man. No, no, no That's a horn It's one where you just It doesn't do the cha-ching, cha-ching Oh, it's a cool sound It's just a brass bell So you strike it once and it just goes It's very piercing It's extremely piercing Do you have lights on there?
    99:04
    No I thought about getting a light A lot of people seem to use them now I used to remember having a light on the headlight And then a generator you'd have to pedal to Yep, I had one of those on my bike as a kid. They now have LED ones that I assume are rechargeable or maybe solar. Yeah, powering an incandescent, you've really got to pedal. Yeah, but it made it so hard to pedal. Yeah, it did. You really were like a hamster. It was like, I think I'd rather just crash.
    99:30
    And then if you coasted, it was like, oh, no, I'm out of lights. I've got to go faster, but that messes up the whole principle of this. I don't think you would like that Jesus Oh fuck it was so good too Can I do that one or is it bad It's pretty bad That one's so good I'm going to have trouble getting over that one