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Episode 37 - Operator Spotlight: Walt's

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·43m 29s·analyzed·Jul 1, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Walt's operator Jeff Johnson advocates passion-driven game selection over new Stern trends.

Summary

Jeff Johnson of Walt's bar in Eagle Rock, LA discusses his operator journey, game selection philosophy, and business challenges. He emphasizes running games he loves (mostly classic EM and solid-state machines) rather than chasing new Stern releases, focuses on maintenance excellence, and operates at lower price points (50 cents) than regional competitors. Jeff and hosts debate pricing strategy, operator economics, and how passionate curation attracts players better than new-game chasing.

Key Claims

  • Jeff transitioned from operating 60+ games on route to just 8 games at a brewery plus 10 at Walt's due to time and lifestyle constraints with family

    high confidence · Jeff stated directly: 'At one point, I had like 60 games... it's too hard, man' and now operates minimally due to family priorities

  • Walt's operates almost exclusively EM and solid-state machines (no modern Sterns except recently added Pulp Fiction and Cactus Canyon), yet attracts significant play from young, casual LA players

    high confidence · Alan observed: 'you don't operate new modern sterns at all really... you always seem to prioritize floor space to em machines and solid states' and noted young players constantly playing old games

  • Walt's prices games at 50 cents (Pulp Fiction, Cactus Canyon, Monster Bash) vs regional competitors charging 75 cents to $1 for new games

    high confidence · Jeff: 'I have like the new cactus canyon and pulp fiction those are like the two new games... those are both 50 cents a play' and 'everything's at 50 cents'

  • Jeff suspects other LA operators resent his lower pricing but won't confront him directly

    medium confidence · Jeff: 'I feel like deep down they're talking shit' and 'I'm getting some weird looks oh from other operators'

  • Walt's building has historical significance: built early 1900s as plumbing shop, housed McCleary's ice cream in 1920s, was first LA-county Vans retail shoe store in mid-1970s

    high confidence · Jeff detailed building history explicitly, confirmed recent Vans collaboration shoot

  • Jeff and brother Brad formerly owned Adaball (Seattle) as partners with Travis 12 years ago; Brad has since exited bar business; now they swap games seasonally between locations

    high confidence · Jeff described partnership origin, clarified separation as 'nice divorce,' confirmed Travis now owns/runs Adaball solo

  • Jeff's father taught him and brother to repair pinball machines in childhood using carburetor cleaner and brake cleaner, damaged a Surf Champ still in operation at Walt's

    high confidence · Jeff: 'My dad found a Surf Champ at a garage sale back in like 1982... It's in Waltz still. It still has all the fire marks inside'

Notable Quotes

  • “At one point, I had like 60 games... it's too hard, man. Like when I was younger... I just want to swim in the pool and hang out with my wife. I'm not trying to get like the pinball baron of LA.”

    Jeff Johnson @ mid-episode — Captures operator burnout and lifestyle trade-off; explains shift from high-volume routing to curated location focus

  • “My lineup is solely based on what i love... that's the best lineup to have.”

    Jeff Johnson @ early-mid — Core philosophy: passion-driven selection over market-driven decision-making; contrasts with industry practice of chasing new releases

  • “Every light has to work, every switch has to work. If i see a dirty rubber i'm fucking pumped dude and i'm changing it... every day i'm in the bar working on every day every fucking day”

    Jeff Johnson @ maintenance section — Emphasizes operational rigor; maintenance as daily practice, not reactive fix-it work; sets expectation for quality operators

  • “You don't just set it and forget it... It's not passive income. If you want to do it right, it's a lot of work.”

    Jeff Johnson (confirmed by Alan) @ late episode — Corrects misconception that pinball operation is passive revenue; frames it as active business requiring constant attention

  • “I saw guys get into pinball via waltz and end up like buying games within like a year. It's like you hook them in so fast there.”

    Alan (Wedgehead co-host) @ mid-episode — Documents customer acquisition funnel: casual players → enthusiasts → machine buyers; validates Jeff's strategy

  • “When you're new to pinball all of the pinball is hard... the modern stuff's just more confusing. But you play the old stuff you can walk up and everybody kind of immediately understands like oh i want to shoot the stuff that's lit up.”

    Alex (Waterboy, co-host) @ gameplay discussion — Explains accessibility advantage of classic machines for onboarding casual players; supports Jeff's lineup philosophy

  • “I have a whole library of parts... every single time i don't have a new [part] and i'm like fuck how do i not have this flipper crank... And then I know. It's a lot.”

Entities

Walt'scompanyJeff JohnsonpersonBrad JohnsonpersonAdaballcompanyTravispersonAlanpersonAlex 'Waterboy'personWedgehead Pinball Podcastorganization

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: High-volume game routing (60 games) is unsustainable for operators with family priorities; Jeff scaled back dramatically citing time constraints and lifestyle preferences

    high · Jeff: 'At one point, I had like 60 games on route... it's too hard, man... since having babies... I just want to swim in the pool and hang out with my wife... I'm not trying to get like the pinball baron of la'

  • ?

    business_signal: Operator pricing competition in LA region creating tension; Jeff runs 50-cent pricing on new games while competitors charge 75 cents to $1, creating perception of undercutting

    high · Jeff: 'I'm kind of conflicted because I'm thinking about other operators... I'm getting some weird looks oh from other operators' and 'I feel like deep down they're talking shit'

  • ?

    event_signal: LA pinball scene characterized by casual, friendly competitive culture attracting young players; stark contrast to Pacific Northwest's high-skill tournament scene

    high · Alan: 'everyone here is having a good time... Nobody was mad when they lost. That's what I love to see' vs 'in the northwest... people take it very seriously... the level of players in seattle are insane'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Operators increasingly value game passion/curation over profit maximization; model validation showing players migrate toward locations with thoughtful lineups regardless of new-release strategy

    medium · Alan: 'I believe as an operator, if you're a passionate operator, if you love the lineup you have... then the players will pick up on it'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Modern Stern ruleset complexity (30-page PDF rule sets, multiple mini-modes, wizard modes) creates barrier to entry for casual/location players despite technical sophistication

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.130

0:00
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedget Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, host of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast and one-half owner of the Portland Pinball Bar Wedgehead. Joined by my co-host in the basement studio, we have Alex the Waterboy. Howdy, I'm Alex. I'm one-third of the podcast tonight because we're joined by a very special guest, our friend Jeff Johnson out of L.A. He runs a bar you've probably seen or you've seen the merch from. It's Walt's in the Eagle Rock neighborhood. Jeff, how are you doing? I'm good. Great to be here. Thanks for having me on. We are so stoked to talk to you. I love Waltz. I'm wearing the Waltz t-shirt as we are recording right now. Waltz is sort of kind of a sister bar to Adaball up in Seattle. Can you tell us more about that and what made you and your brother start operating pinball machines? It's a long story, but I'll kind of speed it up. My brother and I had like moped shops. Nice. We grew up with pinball machines. Like my dad found a Surf Champ at a garage sale back in like 1982. Then they taught us how to fix it. It's in Waltz still. It still has all the fire marks inside the cabinet from when we used to try to clean it with carburetor cleaner, dude. Whoa. I mean, that's how you know you're an actual car guy. If you're using carb cleaner to just do everything, you're like washing your hands with it.
1:43
My dad's actually here right now. He's like, boy, you got to use Simple Green to wash your hands. I'm like, that shit's nasty, dude. He's like, nope. It's the only thing that takes off. And he's just like pour Simple Green all over his hands, like not even like diluted. Just straight up Simple Green. this all tracks this is shit my dad would do too it's so gnarly i'm just like what the fuck he was using like contact cleaner you know but we and he'd be like all right boys turn it on turn it off and he was like check what relays were firing you know and so we just kind of mimicked that we were like oh i'd be like brad i'm gonna douse the whole fucking cabinet everything with carb cleaner or brake cleaner whatever we had and i'm like all right turn it on i mean like six years old you and it just goes boom my my hair's on fire over the bathtub and my mom was just like fuck i mean we were on fire dude and uh and at that point she was she was just like walter you've got to teach the pinball machines going or you got to teach them how to fix it so then he started like get really getting down with us and teaching us about everything so that's awesome well we still we still that game like that surf champ at waltz that'll never leave and my brother's taking really good care of it when we opened wall to you it's like dude circ champs coming down that's rad man i had these moped shops we always had pinball machines in our shops and uh brad was like i want to get more games in here i want to start selling beer and shit like in seattle is way easier he always finds like the workaround he's like well dude if we have plastic cups We don't have to get the hardcore liquor license. It's only like 20 bucks. So, you know, like some weird shit like 10 years ago in Seattle. Oh, man. Yeah, the weird grandfather laws. Yeah, something crazy. And so he needed like five grand and he only had like probably 900 bucks. His buddy Travis was like, I got five grand. Brad's like, okay, cool. We'll make you a partner. So it was Travis and Travis and Brad opened Adaball. and it just kind of like spiraled off of that and kept rolling rolling rolling and then when did i'm down here when did add a ball open you know or a rough idea like i don't know i should know probably like 12 years okay something like that yeah nice but and then we opened waltz i was i kept driving by this old plumbing shop and i went up for lease and i was like boys we need this spot and they were down so but since then like brad's gotten out of the bar world oh okay and then we all kind of split ways. We kind of, we had, we had a nice divorce where we all like kind of separated. Okay. So you're still being, you know, friendly for the kids. Yeah. Yeah. No, Travis owns and runs the Attaball. Nice. As of like two years, two years ago. And I run and own Walt's. So now you're more like cousin bars. You're not even really like sister bars. We're cousin bars. Yeah. Cousin bars. Yeah. Okay. I like that. So that's kind of the story with, with that whole thing. Can you tell us more about the history of your building? Cause Walt's is in a super interesting building. You said it used to be a plumbing shop. It used to be many things. Can you tell us a little bit more about that space and your experience kind of building it out and turning it into a bar, a hot dog and wine bar that also has rad pinball machines? Yeah. So it was built in like the early 1900s and it was a plumbing supply shop. It was this guy named Pat Connor. It's like old badass irish guy and he in like the 20s he started breaking the building up he realized he didn't need all the space so he where walt is right now they leased this place called mccleary's ice cream company so it was like ice cream soda pop kind of spot and it was that for a while and it was a chocolate shop did all the weird fucking dumb shit that yeah like trying to get tourist money kind of shit you know all the 30s and 40s and 50s shit and then in the mid 70s vans leased the space and it was the first retail shoe store for vans oh shit that's sick in los angeles county yeah that's cool so it was it was a van store for um about 20 years and then just a bunch of random shit after that but so we just recently did a uh collab shoot with vans yeah i'd seen that built this little shack in the back and my wife used to do um food out of the shack in the back during like the pandemic we had uh we built this like kind of makeshift kitchen back there totally illegal and she's like a fucking badass chef her dad's jeannie kennedy who's like the psycho like northeastern canadian chef nice she was just like making like really good bar food that's still And then health department comes by for inspection. They're like, what the fuck?

  • Operators running new Stern games at Walt's location pricing would need many plays to recoup $8k+ purchase cost; classic games hold value but residual depreciation complicates ROI math

    medium confidence · Alan discussed economics: 'When you buy a Pulp Fiction and it's $8,000, that's a lot of plays before you pay that game back... pinball machines hold their value'

    • Alan (Wedgehead) @ parts inventory section — Illustrates inventory management complexity and hidden costs of quality operation

  • “If he says that, I don't fucking know... I think there's a lot of operators like you... You bought Pulp Fiction because you think it's rad... not considering ROI.”

    Alan @ pricing debate — Notes that passionate operators prioritize game quality over profit math; distinguishes them from route operators on splits

    • Wedgehead
    company
    Pulp Fictionproduct
    Cactus Canyonproduct
    Tridentproduct
    Monster Bashproduct
    Surf Champproduct
    Tyler Whiteperson
    Jeff's fatherperson
    Revenge of Comics and Pinballcompany
    MNXcompany
    Jeannie Kennedyperson
    Jeff's wifeperson

    medium · Jeff on Trident Arduino code: 'it's way way way way like the pdf rule set is like 30 pages... way too complicated for a location... everybody's like what the fuck' and Alex: 'you play the old stuff you can walk up and everybody kind of immediately understands'

  • $

    market_signal: Accessibility of EM/solid-state machines to casual players driving customer acquisition; Walt's success proving market demand for approachable games contradicts industry assumption that only new Sterns generate revenue

    high · Alan on Walt's: 'what really surprised me was there was a bunch of people... a bunch of young people like young attractive la people that were all playing these really old fucking games... these games all get the shit played out of them'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Top-tier operators treating daily maintenance as essential business activity, not reactive repair; parts inventory management and proactive wear component replacement driving competitive advantage

    high · Jeff: 'every day i'm in the bar working on [games] every day every fucking day... every light has to work every switch has to work... if i see a dirty rubber i'm fucking pumped dude and i'm changing it'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Brad Johnson (Adaball co-founder) exited bar/pinball business; ownership transitioned to Travis ~2 years ago; remains friendly with Jeff but no longer operationally involved

    high · Jeff: 'Brad's gotten out of the bar world... we all kind of split ways. We kind of, we had, we had a nice divorce' and 'Travis owns and runs the Adaball. As of like two years, two years ago'

  • $

    market_signal: LA market shows 50-75 cent pricing for modern games vs Portland's reported dollar pricing; Jeff's 50-cent strategy challenged by perceived operator hostility despite business success

    high · Jeff: 'I got everything everything's at 50 cents... I'm wondering like is that fucking everybody else up' and Alan: 'I'll wait a couple weeks... before everyone sends hate mail'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Growing appreciation for EM/solid-state machines among younger LA players; Walt's model proving casual players engage deeply with old games rather than requiring new releases

    high · Alan: 'I've seen guys get into pinball via waltz and end up like buying games within like a year... There's just random guys... that never like posted about pinball in the past and suddenly they're showing like waltz on their story'

    • 6:35
    Fuck the health department. They're like, where's the hand washing setting? Where's this and that? So we got popped that. What a bunch of nerds, man. Why are they going to ruin everything? I know. Fucking dweebs. I know.
    6:49
    That's right. Did you try to pay them off? Always. We'll give you free pinball for life if you look the other way. Come on, man. Yeah. Well, that's a bummer that the shack got shut down, but that's sick. Yeah, the shack got shut down, but yeah, it was fun. We had a good time during the pandemic. We have the same staff as we've had pretty much since day one. It's all the homies and everybody just, whenever I'm in there, people are like, Oh, what do you do? Then I'm like, I'm just a janitor, man. I fix pinball machines sometimes. Tony owns this bitch.
    7:21
    It's really fun, man. We have a good time. I like doing a similar thing. I don't like when people know I'm the owner if they don't know me. Yeah. If I get asked by people, they're like, you work here? And I was like, yeah, I'm an employee. I'm going to say I've been to Walt's. I was in LA for a few days for a friend's wedding and I went to Walt's back-to-back days. We were only there for three days, but I went back-to-back. And I think it's pretty unique in a few different ways from most other pinball locations i think the ones that stand out to me like immediately are you don't operate new modern sterns at all really the only new game you have is you just got a pulp fiction but that's kind of like a throwback game and you always seem to prioritize floor space to em machines and solid states so i just want to ask you more about like how do you choose the games that you operate and why it's a great question i i mean my my brother and i are like if we get really into a game we we gotta get it you know yeah we grew up playing pinball i mean we had like my dad was like a real like a weird eclectic dude he still is he's he's like he's a car guy and he always had like pinball machines and he was like buying and selling trade and shit we started buying and selling games in high school and uh i just kind of know by now what i like sure but there are still games like i have a trident in the bar right now and i like never played that game for some reason it's one of those turns it just kind of like i was always like looks like the same layout as like half of them like i'm yeah sure just doesn't look fun and then i got that like i got it and then i got that arduino yep or from what's it i camel does that new code for them dude it's you know what that's really cool if you have that game at your house yeah horrible for location because it's so confusing to anybody that's ever played the game in the past 40 years they're like what the fuck is going on i think it's cool but you really want to not i don't know i wouldn't put one on location ever no way i did for what the wednesday tournament everybody's like what the fuck he keeps fitting balls out like dude that rule set is way too complicated for her you stern dude i mean for us if we have that at our house we're gonna be like oh this is sick because it kind of like it takes an old game that maybe you've you're like i'm kind of over it throw that board in and like it's fun for a little bit but it's way way way way like the pdf rule set is like 30 pages i'm like dude that's insane taking an old stern turning it into a new stern dude that's i had the new out is crazy i had the new code running on uh stern galaxy i've mentioned on the show in the past but oh yeah yeah it was very cool because it was like a game i had played a shit ton and galaxy doesn't have a ton going on in the original code and so definitely added a lot of like replay value to me but it's like trying to explain it to people is as complicated as explaining a brand new game you're like oh there's a lot going on here it's not like we just tweak the rules it's like there's fucking modes and there's mini modes and wizard modes and like play field multiple there was so much shit it was harder up your head around when there's like no display no display and like there's no ball there's no multi balls yeah yeah it's just so different than how you're used to playing like that kind of layout it's yeah yeah can i ask you like you run a lot of when i was at waltz what struck me was one like the place the building you have is sick You had somebody paint the outside of the building You do hand-painted signs, which is very common in LA, but your building is beautiful and you did a great job. The inside is, it's a dope bar. It's a great vibe. It's just so much fun to be there. But what I noticed is that you had a whole row of games and they're all old. like which i love but what really surprised me was there was a bunch of people the first night i went there was a tournament so i get it there's a lot of people there to play pinball the next day i went in and there was still a bunch of people playing pinball a bunch of young people like young attractive la people that were all playing these really old fucking games the general consensus of most operators is that you have to have the new games the new games are what earns these old games won't get played and when i'm in waltz i'm like well these games all get the shit played out of them clearly i completely like disagree with i i get it you know like you guys you live in port you know the average player there is would fucking probably annihilate 90 of the people down here you know like oh yeah skill level yeah yeah and like it's pinball i don't want to say i mean to the majority of people down here it's new it kind of makes sense you got a lot of like fresh impressionable players this is not why i have the games that i have i have the games that i have my lineup is solely based on what i love that's the best lineup to have yeah and but i think that like people are drawn to the games at walt maybe because it's like if you go into like somewhere that like i love revenge of this spot down the street they've got like all the new starlings all the new games it's so confusing to a new player you know you're just like what is going on i mean like fucking godzilla's sick but black knight for a fucking dope but like it's those games like food fighters like what the fuck is going on it's just like it's just gonna go right there goes your butt you know yeah i think when you're starting out it's like there's not a me and alan talk about this a lot and it's like when you're new to pinball all of the pinball is hard in the modern stuff's just more confusing you just don't know what's going on but you play the old stuff you can walk up and it's like everybody kind of immediately understands like oh i want to shoot the stuff that's lit up or whatever yeah it's like drop targets make sense like when you see drops you're like i need to hit the ones that are left my dad never touches pinball and he came to my house a while back and he was playing something he's like oh i got all the little chiclets in the middle of the playfield down is that good and i'm like hell yeah man you got them yep yeah i just think it's so cool that when you go to waltz man it's just so rad to see a bunch of young players a bunch of casual players playing old games there's just random guys i don't know but just like car guys that i follow on instagram and stuff that never like posted about pinball in the past and suddenly they're showing like waltz on their story and posting pinball and It's like I've seen guys get into pinball via waltz and end up like buying games within like a year. It's like you hook them in so fast there. It's crazy. Oh, that's cool. That's cool. I like that. It's just been – it's really sick to see like a young scene embracing the old games like that because it is not that way in Portland. Like you have to fucking fight, I feel like Alan does, to get – I don't know, to win some people over. Some people go – Not anymore. Or it's a little bit different now where it's like we always have old games on the floor. And we've always made it a point that we always dedicate, that we always have EMs and solid states on the floor mixed with games from the 90s as well as the new Sterns. Yeah. I believe as an operator, if you're a passionate operator, if you love the lineup you have, if you love the games that you put on the floor, then the players will pick up on it. And I feel like I saw that firsthand and it confirmed it when I went to Waltz. like i was like yeah well they have no problem with these players playing these games yeah most people will look at your lineup most operators and be like i'm not gonna make any money doing that and then you see waltz and you're just you guys are killing it and you're having a bunch of new players that's what i told our friend tyler white who you know very well shout out to tyler for this sweet gaming headset that i'm talking to you guys on yeah thanks tyler i love tyler he's the man tyler's the best but you know it was like i was like man dude la is sick like the pinball scene in la is so cool because everyone's so friendly and i think like what you said was true was there's less maybe less overall like high skill players there not to disrespect anybody but like people take it very seriously in the northwest as you know from add a ball in seattle and the level of players in seattle are insane yeah dude it's fucking crazy but in la it's like I was there and I'm like, man, I was playing at a couple different tournaments and league nights. And I was just like, dude, everyone here is having a good time. Like there are people that I was watching like double flip both flippers at the same time. I was like, what are you doing at a pinball tournament doing this? But they're having a great time, dude. Nobody was mad when they lost. That's what I love to see, dude. Dude, it was so sick. I was like the L.A. scene is so sick. Shout out to L.A., man. L.A., you guys are doing it right. It's fun, you know. Like, I mean, we just have a fun tournament. We don't, it's not like it is up there where like, you know, your average Joe is just like come in like smokey. Yeah. I was telling this to, when I was in LA, Tyler took me to a tournament and he like vouched for me and I joined the league at league night. He dropped in and I was part of his group and I remember putting up two GCs back to back, draining extra balls. And everyone was, everyone was super friendly at first. And then they were like, wait a second. who is this guy and i was like that's my friend alan like he's from portland and like they're like trying to like google my like yeah ifpa rating and i was like i don't play in tournaments you know but they were like what the fuck yeah and i was like oh this is my man this is easy shit to me like yeah it's just catching on you know and it's it's like just people are getting more deeper and deeper into the the disease yeah it is a disease man glad you said that that's how It really is. Yeah. And it spreads, dude. It spreads. So you have a lot of games like you and your brother have a lot of games. Like, how does that work? Like, I know that the first time I met you, you were driving a truck back full of games from Seattle back down to L.A. And then you were telling me something that you guys used to do that like once a year. You guys would like swap games between Adaball and Waltz. Like, where do you keep them now? Like, how do you how do you move the games around? Well, Brad and I still swap games. Travis is kind of doing his own thing. But, like, my brother will find games and, like, he'll drive them down. That's just an excuse for him to come down here and hang out with the babies. Totally. Bring me sick shit. Yeah, that's sick. I have a warehouse down here and I have a big basement. But I'm down, like, I have a, I'm not, like, you want to talk, we should segue into, like, the location situation. Because, like, I don't route games anymore. You don't route any games. Actually, that's not true. I have eight games at a brewery in Whittier. Okay. But that's it. It's too hard, man. At one point, I had like 60 games. 60 games on route outside of Walt's? Yeah. Oh, damn. Okay, yeah. That's like what Roadsy does, my business partner. Full-time job. Yeah. Just, dude, it's too much. Like when I was younger and I could run around, I had my whole kit, and I was just like, you know, my truck was just like, I had everything in there. every diet every cap every every flipper mecca it's like dude i can't do it anymore you know i think like since having babies and and just realizing like i just want to i want to swim in the pool and hang out with my wife yeah right i want to have a beer in the sun like i'm not trying to get like you know it's it's a struggle dude you're not trying to be the pinball baron of la no fuck that the thing is like yeah and you know it's like in order to have a game on location or in your bar every light has to work every switch has to work yep like if i see a dirty rubber i'm fucking pumped dude and i'm changing it you know it's like i have 10 games at waltz yep and that literally i every day i'm in the bar yep working on every day every fucking day yeah for the listeners out there this is for the people that care the most like the great operators that we host on this show that we do these operator spotlight series that's what it is respect you know like it's every single day it's every day i'm working on games when people when people see me working on games they go oh gee whiz like this is cool like how often you have to work on these things i'm like every single day yeah there's like as much time as you have the pinball machines will take i feel like absolutely think about you have to think in advance you have to pre-order all the shit gonna wear out you know yeah and and you you literally have to like think about how many thousands of dollars we're sitting on in pinball parts alone oh i know i've got a whole library of parts isn't it crazy and every single time i don't have a new i've run into another part and i'm like fuck how do i not have this flipper crank like how do i have i feel like I have all of them. How do I not have this one? And I got to wait for the order. And then I know. Yeah, it's a lot. Anybody out there that wants to get into operating promotions? Do it. Yes. Do it. Dude, that's my that's I will tell you, dude, it is. It's not. You don't just set it and forget it. Exactly. It's not passive income. It's not just like, oh, they'll just collect money. I mean, we've all been to places that do that. Sure, yeah. And it's shit. Those are the places we all go back to. You're like, yep, if you want to do it right, it's a lot of work. It really is. I give this advice to lots of people, sometimes unsolicited on forums, but usually I just can't hear the bitching or the justification that these rich home collectors have where they're like, well, I got to buy all these new games because there's no good location within two hours. And I go, fuck it, dude. You got 15 games. Like, make the scene. Be an operator. Put these games in a place and fucking get it done. Like, sometimes you got to raise the barn yourself, dude. Nobody else is going to do it. Then you should do it. With that being said, it's not easy, but I think it's necessary for pinball to continue to grow. And I think it awesome when people start amassing a collection of games and you running out of space or you always want to get something new and different starting to operate is a good thing and i think it makes you a more reasonable pinball player because you understand how much fucking work it is to keep the games running nicely when you've had to operate it yourself yeah it can also frustrate you when you see stuff that could be an easy fix or is just set up oh man yeah come on you're like that's a like that's a gimme that's a gimme i know i know it's fucking come on man i got this weird level of like i have a i have a shit ton of grace for operators because i know how hard it is but i'm also the most critical because i'm like i want our games to run excellent like so i'm hard on myself and that's a hard thing to turn off when you play others games and all that sort of stuff But whenever I hear people bagging on an operator and they're like, oh, we had a tournament. Somebody had to pull these three games out. And I'm like, hey, man, games break, dude. They're working until they don't work. So you guys don't even, since you're on free play now. No coin mechs. How sick is that? The sickest, dude.
    22:50
    Oh, my God. I'm going to give a shout out to MNX. What's that? Best coin mech. Oh, yeah? MNX? The MNX coin mechs are the best. Interesting. They're all plastic. Like, literally just throw them in the fucking, in the sink full of soap and... Dishwasher? Yeah. None of that other shit. Okay. Sick. Yeah. Wait, so let's talk about pricing. Yeah. Game price. Tell us about your game pricing. What's up? I mean, we're on free play, but, like, as far as, like, around the metro area. I think you guys, but, like, Portland. Yeah, yeah. It varies a lot. There's a couple operators that are on the super cheap side, so you'll still see... things have kind of crept up post-covid they finally adjusted and you do see a dollar a game for sterns and stuff a lot of them are still 75 cents for like like you see brand new games at 75 cents here pretty often yeah and then some operators it's cool when you see old games on location and some guys are really good about it they know if it's a really mean solid state they'll have it set at a quarter sometimes which is sick as a player it's kind of nuts they do that and then sometimes 50 cents for a solid state right and like it's kind of wild you'll see like monster bashes and stuff that are like 50 cents which always blows my mind because you can play a monster bash all fucking day yeah it's hard to make money out on a monster bash at 50 cents when you're like cracking plays you're like okay i put a dollar into a monster bash and i've been playing it me and my wife have a monster bash at a bar near our house and it's like you can put like a buck or two in there yeah be playing it for you know an hour shit that goes back to like what i was saying about like like the skill level of players and in la right like there's not you know if the fight a monster bash here there's like a couple heads that would be like doing what you do right so like everything's i have everything everything's at 50 cents i mean i got surf champion at four just because nice sure i gotta do it but like but i feel like i'm kind of conflicted because i'm thinking about other operators you know that are charging 75 or i'm surprised dude i'm kind of surprised in la to hear that it's like cheap yeah right because la is so expensive dude it's like rent's like psycho yeah that's the crazy part most people have let me like i think 75 cents a dollar for new sterns is pretty normal okay but i don't you know i have like the new cactus canyon and pulp fiction those are like the two new games the newest games that we have and those are both 50 cents a play but i have those oh damn yeah and i'm wondering like is that fucking everybody else up oh as far as other operators like 75 that's uh i would i would no one's gonna say anything to my face just because they're like oh yeah you know like whatever but like i feel like deep down they're talking shit yeah a lot back here's the thing, Jeff, is I think they're like, that's not cool. I'm planning a whole episode or a series of episodes on pinball economics. I've teased it a couple of times on the show. I'm just still working on it. But I'm going to address this because I think the problem is, is like pinball is a full ecosystem. So what happens is us as operators. Yeah. Right. Like if we're competing in the same region, it's like some people will will drop their prices to the bottom to try to win more market share. I think what you do is so interesting though, because I think what you do is so different because you're the games you run are so different from what other people are running. You're not running a venom at 50 cents and there's four other venoms in town that are charging a dollar, right? So I think it's a little bit different. Part of what, part of what I want to talk about on pinball economics in this future episode I do is I do think that there's a lot of operators that are hurting themselves. Now you have a whole business. I'm sure the pinball is not how you pay your mortgage or your staff at Waltz. As well as the machines do, I'm sure that's not what's happening. But there are some people out there that are trying to make a business and they think that the only way they're going to survive is by being cheaper because you get a lot of squeaky wheels that complain about price, price sensitive consumers. And so they go, oh, I'll be cheaper. It'll be cool. But the problem is, is like when you buy a Pulp Fiction and it's $8,000, that's a lot of plays before you pay that game back. Now the game has residual value, which complicates the whole thing. Like pinball machines hold their value. They depreciate a little bit, but not a whole lot. So it's kind of like a sunk cost too, that you have to consider, but there is a whole ecosystem with pricing games, and I think a lot of operators, we'd be better off if we all just sort of agreed like that. We're like, this is what it should cost, right? Like, this is what these games should cost so that we don't have to fight each other. That's exactly why I brought this up, because that's how I'm feeling. Yeah, that's how I'm feeling these days, because, like, I haven't had new games in before, you know? Yeah. And now I do, and I'm just like, if he says that, I don't fucking know. I think there's a lot of operators like you, though, that are the same way where they're like, well, I'm not even considering like I bought Pulp Fiction because I think it's rad and I want this game. I bought Cactus Canyon because I thought it was rad. I want this game. You're like, as long as the and you own the business that they're in, which is also different, right? Like when you're on a route and you're having to do splits, it's different. Yeah. And when you own your own arcade, you have higher costs when you own your bar or arcade. but you also don't have to split it with an operator so again there's it's there's so many like facets to this diamond about pinball and how it makes money and all that kind of there are a lot of variables yeah but yeah i would say that but i think i don't like what you said i just want to be on the same page as like everybody you know and i i mean dude you're talking to like i don't even know like i don't even open my mail dude i'm like i'm like i don't know what's going on like i'm i will say okay so i will say jeff when i went to waltz i felt like it was cheap like that's that's how i felt i was like this is cheap okay i mean i don't i don't want everyone to hate me and send all the hate mail i was like oh jeff raised the price on his games like fuck that guy up in portland that's not what i'm suggesting no no no i'll wait i'll wait a couple weeks um yeah no no but no it's it it's been it's been an ongoing thing you know like i've been like i think i'm i think i'm getting some weird looks oh from other operators from other operators yeah it's a weird feeling i don't you know because it's like we're all competing kind of right but we're also yeah as you know very well the group of pinball players we're sort of raising all boats like the same players play at all the locations and they move around right like there are some players that won't go to a certain location but the majority of pinball players in a region will hit different locations to play different games or there's a different tournament or league happening different nights of the week or whatever right so they really are part of the same ecosystem and you can't like you can't be like upset that people go and play at different locations because that's part of pinball man like everyone wants to go play at different places oh dude i love it oh yeah it's fucking awesome yeah i mean i think that's like we love that too so i always try to like i don't judge my competition in portland for like what they do because i understand the hustle and i'm sure that some of them don't like our pricing structure like i'm sure that some of them are like well shit like we're charging a buck a play but wedge heads charging 12 bucks to play all night but it is what it is right there's a big uh museum out in hillsborough that has 300 pinball machines and they charge they charge 22 dollars so you know it's kind of like i mean obviously like we have 25 machines on the floor they have 300 like it's not the same thing they're out in a suburb but you know it's the same concept of like we're the little brother they're the big brother they're the big big brother to us right but it's also kind of good like if people are flying across the country to go to portland and they want to go to this you know huge pinball mecca then well now they're in portland what else are they going to do while they're in portland they're not just going to fly and only go to next level so now they might check about ground control or wedgehead or c bar or any of these other cool portland locations yeah so we all are tangentially part of the same group even if we're not owned and operated by the same people so yeah yeah i mean you are part of a community i'm sure you know all the other operators right yeah i know everybody but it's really small dude i mean look at pinball map it's like la pinball map but it's growing look at portland like you literally have you have to zoom in like four times just to see a circle yeah yeah it's insane portland's crazy that ain't happening down here sure and why do you think that is is it just what you said like is it space and rent and is it are there laws in california that make operating amusement devices hard or like why isn there more machines on location I had four locations get busted by the cops so you have to have a police permit okay and it not like that much money i mean it's maybe like 600 bucks or i don't i don't know but there's there's all these all the shit you have to go through okay so like when we got our gaming permit yeah the these two cops came in and we have like this mural on the back wall that's like a forest and then my friend alexis painted a bunch of like uh new germans in the woods okay i think we had like a strikes and spares and some other nasty pinball in there nasty yeah and and they were like pointed out all this shit they're like that's profanity that's profanity you have to take down that back wall that's profanity profanity dude what what yeah and so i was like are you kidding so I had to pull out like three games. What the fuck? Put in some PC games and I grabbed a staple gun and some fake Ivy and just like stapled it over like the private parts of this, of that mural. Like the dicks and tits. What? And then there. Why do they care? In Los Angeles? Yeah, that delayed our opening for like two weeks. We just, we had to wait for them to come back. That's insane. Wow. It's so insane down here. It's so hard to do anything. I can't imagine. That's fucking wild to me that they would give a shit about that. Huh. I know. Strikes and spares? You're like, come on. Yeah, that's just normal ballet art, dude. Yeah, that's some good stuff. You can see visible nipples through the shirts, but so what? Everyone has nipples.
    34:20
    I know. It's natural. Man, we could do a whole two episodes on just what we had to go through opening a bar down here. It's hard. And I think that's why a lot of people don't have pin motions. Because three spots that have had games before, they've gotten busted. Okay, so that makes sense. You can't just throw a game in a bar. You have to get this crazy gaming permit. It's a lot. Okay, so that makes more sense. I think that helps illuminate it. And for when we talk to different operators, we're talking to operators in different states, cities, municipalities. I even just interviewed an operator up in Canada. So it's like we're talking to operators now in different countries. And so it's good for the listener to understand that these things change regionally. So like when you're somewhere and you're like, oh, you know, I played a game and it or why? Why is there nothing here? And you're like, they might have arcane, outdated laws. Like, I know that in Maine, up until recently, they had this, you know, they used to charge you, it was something crazy, like $200 or more a year per machine to run a pinball machine. And then you get to a point where you're like, well, okay, if I'm buying the game, I'm routing it, I'm fixing it, I'm splitting the cost with the owner of the bar, right? Like, all of a sudden, like, this is not fucking worth it at all. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Totally. That's so regional. It changes so much. We have a flat amusement permit that we have to have here in Portland, and it goes by the number of machines you have, and it's graduated. But, you know, like if you have five to ten, it's one price. And I don't remember off the top of my head. I know ours is over $1,000 a year to have 25 games or whatever. But it's okay for us because we're a pinball destination. but having a couple in a location it's a lot cheaper which makes it worth it like if you have under 10 it's i think that it's very affordable to have less than 10 which is why you see so many in portland like you look at the pinball map of portland it looks like chicken pox it's crazy but there's tons of bars that have one or two or three right it also rains all the time man like just like why it's big in seattle right it's like the weather is not southern california so you know it's like you're looking for stuff to do when it's bleak and rainy out and so pinball's always been big here when you guys do um the the tournament sure when you do howdy partner yeah what do you guys do you use bratwurst or match play we have our own we've been building your own? Oh, no way. Yeah. What? Yeah. Can I get the secret login? I'm just getting so close to it. I've been working on it. Yeah, we've had some regulars who are software programmers that have been working on it. No way. We're getting so close. I would love for you guys to run them. Yeah. Dude, so my big thing with BrackLope is it's super easy to use, but as soon as you start the next round if you accidentally put a win where it could have been a lot where it should have been a loss you can't go back oh yeah sucks yeah right it fucking sucked the isaac the guy that made brackelope is a good friend of mine so yeah that's like danny backglasses homie right yeah yeah yeah because danny used to live up here in portland he was part of the yeah crazy flipper fingers yeah isaac is dope he's expressed he's like part of why match play is taken over so much is that he was like, I don't want to have to be IT support for this thing I made years ago to every single person, which I can understand. I know, but all he has to do is change that one line. I'll pass him. I'll talk to him about it. I'll tell him he's got a devout following in LA. I love Brad Filo, but man, it's fucking brutal when you enter the wrong winner and then start a new round. Okay, I'll let him know. I love Isaac. Isaac's a sweet dude. So, I'll talk to him or he'll hear this episode. I think I've met Isaac before. Yeah, I think he's, I think that it's a sick ass dude. He's a tall, beautiful man. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that guy. Yeah, yeah. He's a sweetheart. Handsome stutter. Yes. But yeah, man, I'd love to have you part of Howdy when we get it all together. Your lineup is perfect for it. Yeah, I'm down. But yeah, man, it's, uh, that's all we do too is like we mostly do just very casual tournaments because it it's the formal stuff doesn't really i don't know the problem is vibe dude like i don't want to i want to be careful here because i think it's pinball tournaments are rad for the players that play in pinball tournaments the problem that pinball tournament players don't fully grasp is that not everyone that plays pinball wants to play in a pinball tournament or wants to be in a place where a pinball tournament is happening so yeah and some of them take winning and losing very seriously some of them yell some of them scream some of them lose on a bad bounce because it's pinball and they make the winner feel like shit even though they just won right right out and that's that just sucks man it's a bad vibe when that happens not all pinball tournament players like this at all but there's but it happens in every scene where that some serious tryhards can really kind of drag some shit down and honestly it became like there's fortunately a lot of other locations around town that can host a lot more serious tournaments so for me it's like fuck it let's do something different like i want to devalue playing in a tournament it like i want to take these stakes that these players have which is their ifpa rankings their ranking points their cash buy-in cash prizes and i want to go we ain't gonna have none of that you know like so if you lose so what you've missed out on a chance to get a keychain or a sticker right and i'm also forcing you to play as a team so that you're not like you're not winning or losing you're you're with a group they're helping you you can help your teammates if you're new at pinball it's not just all right play until you get smoked by the people that play all the time right and then the inevitable happens no you could be a bad player and you're just on a winning team anyway which i think is which is what makes the format fun oh oh yeah dude the ultimate no headphones no yeah no headphones dude that should just be a standard rule i think it should be a standard rule too ifpa should we should both put we should put that on our front door hell yeah dude i'm with you no do it no headphones i hear you man i appreciate the your level of like for the listener that hasn't been i want to implore you if you're ever in la waltz absolute must stop 100 must go to waltz waltz is always the place i want to go i played at all the la pinball spots There are other awesome pinball spots in L.A., but Walt's is the fucking best. Whenever I have friends that go to L.A., they ask me for pinball recommendations. Always Walt's. I always say Walt's. Thanks, Al. That means a lot, dude. Appreciate you. I just love what you guys do. You know, it's a mutual admiration society because I love, I just loved walking in there the first time. I was like, this place is dope. Like, the vibe is dope. You have two patios. you know here on eagle rock boulevard signs are hand painted you got rad old pinball machines wood paneling like you named the spot after your dad your dad you know taught you how to set pinball machines on fire when you were kids like i just love that the whole shit like it's just the whole package is just sick this is a cool spot whether or not you play pinball and that's what makes it the coolest pinball spot i think the coolest pinball spots are like this place would be cool even if I wasn't there playing pinball. Yeah. And like, that's what Waltz is. You having awesome pinball is just icing on the cake. But I just want to tell everyone, wrap this episode up. Thanks, man. Yeah, of course. Go out, play some pinball on location, support your local operator. And if you're ever going to LA, make sure you stop at Waltz. I want to thank Jeff for joining us. It was a great time having him on the show. And until next time, good luck. Don't suck.
    42:57
    Thank you.