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DP/DPX - What to Expect in the Future - Pinball Expo 2025 - Pinball News

Pinball News (Pinball Expo 2025)·video·27m 55s·analyzed·Oct 17, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

DPX announces Raza (333 units) after Alice nears 50% completion; toppers resolving; exclusive Alice buyer priority on next DP title.

Summary

Melvin Williams of Dutch Pinball/DPX presented updates on Alice's Adventures in Wonderland production and announced the next DPX game: Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Raza), limited to 333 units. Alice is approximately halfway complete with an expected March 2026 delivery; topper fulfillment issues are being resolved with direct shipping planned within weeks. Raza will feature rebuilt geometry, custom apron screen replacing the controversial touchscreen, and an optional interactive topper, with full reveal and pre-orders opening February-March 2026.

Key Claims

  • Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is approximately 50% complete with expected completion by end of March 2026, about 3-3.5 months behind original schedule

    high confidence · Melvin Williams stated production is at 40-45 units per month with 500 total units planned

  • Raza will be limited to exactly 333 units and pricing will be slightly higher than Alice

    high confidence · Melvin Williams announced production numbers and price indication during seminar

  • Topper vendor experienced operational issues; DPX is now receiving more toppers than games shipped and plans to send remaining toppers via direct shipping within weeks in custom boxes

    high confidence · Melvin Williams detailed topper fulfillment recovery and packaging solution

  • All Alice buyers will be granted priority access (first 500 people) to pre-order the next major Dutch Pinball title launching approximately one year from Pinball Expo 2025

    high confidence · Melvin Williams announced exclusive buyer benefit for Alice customers as thank-you gesture

  • Raza's touchscreen (pin bar) has been replaced with a custom apron-width screen controlled via flipper buttons, addressing a previous design controversy

    high confidence · Melvin Williams explained mechanical redesign and control mechanism for Raza

  • Raza uses Steve Bowden's original code base from Deep Root with tweaks; David Thiel's audio package is retained; Deep Root development continued through 2021 before abandonment

    high confidence · Melvin Williams clarified code reuse and development history of Raza source material

  • Price increases on Alice driven by 15% tariffs (DPX/Dutch absorbing 5%, distributors absorbing remaining 10%) and unfavorable USD-to-EUR currency conversion

    high confidence · Melvin Williams explained pricing pressures affecting both Alice and Raza

  • DPX refund policy: customers with deposits who cannot afford increased pricing are eligible for full refunds by January 1, 2026, but forfeit priority access to future games

Notable Quotes

  • “We're now at about halfway done. We probably need another five to six months to end the series. So we're probably looking at the end timeline of Alice somewhere around the end of March.”

    Melvin Williams@ 0:21 — Official Alice completion timeline; confirms 3-month delay and production pace

  • “So at this stage, almost every game that kind of goes out right now is being shipped with a topper...we have to find a good box for them so they can be shipped to you from our manufacturing plant.”

    Melvin Williams@ 1:20 — Confirms topper fulfillment recovery and operational workaround

  • “The next game from DPX will be Retro Atomic Zombie at Vangeland, short for Raza...It's 333 units, so 3-3-3.”

    Melvin Williams@ 3:01 — Official announcement of next DPX title with specific production numbers

  • “If you paid in full and get your game delivered...your name is on that invoice, you're eligible to be the first one on the pre-order list for the next future Dutch Pinball title.”

    Melvin Williams @ Alice buyer benefit announcement — Defines scope of exclusive priority access for Alice customers

  • “The topper is available to order with the game, and it's only available to order. So if you don't order the topper with your game, we will never build that topper anymore.”

    Melvin Williams@ 5:27 — Clarifies scarcity strategy for Raza's interactive topper; one-time order window only

  • “We already said, you know what we're going to do, we're taking the 5% hit. And if you want to pay the 10%, that's something we gotta do.”

    Melvin Williams@ 5:11 — Confirms cost-sharing arrangement between DPX and distributors on tariff impact

Entities

Melvin WilliamspersonDutch PinballcompanyDPX (Dutch Pinball Exclusive)companyAlice's Adventures in WonderlandgameRetro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Raza)gameDeep Root PinballcompanySteve Bowdenperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: DPX announcing new game (Raza) while Alice production remains incomplete; community perception risk of divided focus despite Williams' stated prioritization of Alice

    medium · Melvin Williams acknowledged concern: 'I don't want to give people the feeling wow so you're jumping on a new game while we're still waiting on the old one' and delayed full reveal until Alice nears completion

  • ?

    community_signal: Alice's Adventures in Wonderland generated 'a lot of negativity' per Melvin Williams; DPX framing completion as proof of concept that they can 'pull something off that's better' despite delays

    medium · Melvin Williams: 'Alice was already controversial. You know, it was a hit and miss because there was a lot of negativity around it'

  • ?

    community_signal: DPX granting all Alice buyers (delivered or pre-order) priority access as first 500 people eligible for next major Dutch Pinball title launching ~1 year out; community appreciation gesture for patience during delays

    high · Melvin Williams announced: 'I will grant you to be the first of the 500 people that are eligible to get the next future Dutch Pinball title'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: DPX maintains '333 units' strategy for Raza vs Alice's 500 units; Melvin Williams emphasizes exclusivity: 'DPX stands for exclusive...if you're a part of the DPX family, you should have something that's rare'

    high · Melvin Williams explicitly stated exclusivity rationale for 333-unit limit

  • $

    market_signal: Limited edition scarcity strategy: Raza topper available only as order-with-game option; once order window closes (Feb-Mar reveal), topper never built again; no secondary market availability possible

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.084

0:00
All hear me? All good? All right. Appreciate you coming out. Today we're talking about Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and how that's going and what we're about to see in 2026. So let me start off by saying and giving some updates about Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. We're now at about halfway done.
0:25
We probably need another five to six months to end the series. So it means that we're probably looking at the end timeline of Alice somewhere around the end of March.
0:38
So we're about three, three and a half months over schedule. So what we're trying to do also, because everybody's aware that we had some issues with the toppers, the vendor who made them unfortunately had some issues went a little bit under did a restart and we shipped out some games without toppers at this stage we're getting more toppers in than we ship out games so it means that almost every game that kind of goes out right now is being shipped with a topper the only issue we have is that because the toppers were never intended to be shipped outside of the game. We do have toppers in stock right now, but we have to find a good box for them so they can be shipped to you from our manufacturing plant. So we hope to get that shipped out in a couple of weeks. We'll be probably shipping those direct to every customer.
1:42
So that's the update about Alice. We also know that we offer a refundable deposit if your game was late on 1st of January, 2026, and you're still eligible to get that. By the end of the seminar, because the people who believed in Alice, I think, are very important for DPX and for Dutch Pinball itself. so in the end of the seminar I have a token of appreciation for everybody who believed in me and us and I will announce that on the end of this seminar my idea was to probably announce and launch a new game today but because of you know Alistair is for me the main focus and our our main goal um and i don't want to give people the feeling wow so you're jumping on a new game while we're still waiting on the old one um that said i do want to share what the future is for uh dpx and dutch pinball going forward in 2026 so i'm here to announce that the um next game from dpx will be retro atomic zombie at Vangeland, short for Raza.

high confidence · Melvin Williams addressed refund eligibility tied to price increases

  • “The game was rebuilt from the ground up based on the whole DPX systems...I added some magnets to it so when you shoot it, it grabs it and it chucks it back the other way.”

    Melvin Williams@ 18:53 — Confirms significant playfield redesign from Deep Root version

  • “What I can say is it's probably going to be a little bit more expensive than Alice...because of the many ramps and all the layers they put, I tried to do as much sculpts in there as possible.”

    Melvin Williams@ 23:33 — Indicates Raza pricing premium; discusses design approach and cost trade-offs

    • David Thielperson
    John Popadiukperson
    Magic Girlgame
    Pinball Expo 2025event
    Pinball Newsorganization
    Back to the Futuregame
    Jersey Jack Pinball (J-Pop)company
    Liorperson

    high · Melvin Williams: 'The topper is available to order with the game, and it's only available to order. So if you don't order the topper with your game, we will never build that topper anymore.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Melvin Williams leads DPX/Dutch Pinball code and design; Lior credited as sculptor; questioned whether trilogy completion (Magic Girl remaster) possible; indicates technical debt issues requiring 'significant fixes'

    high · Melvin Williams: 'Magic Girl, I think, deserves a remaster...the problem with Magic Girls there's so much that needs to be fixed on that game'

  • $

    market_signal: Alice price increases driven by 15% tariffs (DPX/Dutch absorbing 5%, remainder passed to distributors) and unfavorable USD-EUR currency conversion; Raza expected to be more expensive than Alice

    high · Melvin Williams detailed tariff burden and currency volatility: 'Unfortunately, the dollar at this point to the euro the dollar is worth less so it's creeping up'

  • ?

    announcement: DPX announces Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Raza) as next game; 333-unit limit; rebuilt from Deep Root source; custom apron screen replacing touchscreen; interactive optional topper; full reveal Feb-Mar 2026

    high · Melvin Williams: 'The next game from DPX will be Retro Atomic Zombie at Vangeland, short for Raza...It's 333 units, so 3-3-3.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is 3-3.5 months behind schedule with expected March 2026 completion; production rate 40-45 units/month for 500-unit run

    high · Melvin Williams: 'We're probably looking at the end timeline of Alice somewhere around the end of March. So we're about three, three and a half months over schedule.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Topper vendor experienced operational failure; DPX shipped games without toppers initially; fulfillment now recovering with custom packaging solution for orphaned toppers

    high · Melvin Williams: 'The vendor who made them unfortunately had some issues went a little bit under...we shipped out some games without toppers...we're getting more toppers in than we ship out games'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Raza retains Deep Root's widescreen format and most original code/audio despite complete playfield redesign; Williams chose to preserve existing animation rather than rewrite (1+ year delay cost)

    high · Melvin Williams: 'The code...from Bowden...is almost intact...to rewrite all the animations what they've done it would have set us back another year'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Raza redesign replaces Deep Root's controversial touchscreen pin bar with custom apron-width screen controlled via flipper buttons; addresses known design criticism

    high · Melvin Williams: 'The pin bar that was on the game. It was a touchscreen that has been removed. The game looks like an Alice in the lineup, but we moved the so-called pin bar into the apron itself.'

    • 3:15
    The game has been, some people are familiar with the game. It has a history, like Alice had a history.
    3:23
    I like that it's, DPX stands for exclusive. And when I done Alice, 500 was always for my taking a little bit too much.
    3:33
    And I believe that if you're a part of the DPX family, you should have something that's rare. So also I'm going to announce the numbers that we're going to make. It's 333 units, so 3-3-3.
    3:47
    It will – everybody can probably remember the infamous pin bar that was on the game. It was a touchscreen that has been removed. The game looks like an Alice in the lineup, but we moved the so-called pin bar into the apron itself. so we made a custom screen almost to the width of the of the apron and it doesn't have a touchscreen anymore but you control with the flipper buttons when you go into Atomic Shop or you you're buying stuff in there you use your flippers to control all that of course you we will have the wonder reels of light that were also on the on the Alice game on the sides with some new phrases on it some new light shows you can expect of course the top or the the the sculpts that we did on alice i will try to implement it as much as we can into the raza game also comes with a topper and i made a decision to have the topper sold separately from the game. Why did I do it? Because of the terrorist situation and the Euro $2 conversion.
    5:03
    Unfortunately, the games in the US have become more expensive. We already, it was 15%. We already said, you know what we're going to do, we're taking the 5% hit. And if you want to pay the 10%, that's something we gotta do.
    5:20
    It's an interactive and animatronic topper, so it's fully movable. It does some crazy things. The topper is available to order with the game, and it's only available to order. So if you don't order the topper with your game, we will never build that topper anymore. So there's no chance you get to buy a topper on the market. but I give a chance to people when they think you know what I don't need the topper and I still need a little bit of entry level price then we will get that sorted the full announcement of that game for showing it will probably be around February March that's also where we're getting to the timeline of finishing Alice and then we're probably trying to see if we can launch Raza on the assembly line at the 1st of June or May June somewhere around there if you're interested in the game you can go to the distributors in the US or in Europe wherever you are I'm probably set you up any on the interest lists, but we won't take any orders or P orders or whatsoever until the game is shown until February, March. So that's about the DPX game coming up.
    6:53
    I come back to something that like I said in the beginning I truly believe and I fully respect everybody who bought their Alice and I think they were the future of the company you know so my thank you for everybody who bought their alice even if the people were waiting on a pre-order now i would advise you to buy the game because it's a great game and i'm going to do something very very special for these people we all know with all respect that we as dpx and dutch people we don't make thousands of games a year because we can't And if we ramp up right now, we will be into a gap into our next game.
    7:50
    So with that said, is that being on a waiting list for a new upcoming game that can be potentially be pretty big. so I'm here today to announce that everybody who bought their Alice got it delivered or have your pre-order so your name is on the bill from your distributor I will grant you to be the first of the 500 people that are eligible to get the next future Dutch Pinball title.
    8:36
    It means that everybody probably already knows that is something very good because it means that you don't have to wait with all the respect years on the next Dutch Pinball title.
    8:51
    And I'm not doing it on Alice to Raza because Raza is only 333 units. But this is something to say a thank you, believe in us, and this is what we want to do for you guys.
    9:04
    So that said, that brings us to probably, if you see on their timeline, with a little bit of hope, you also probably will see the next Dutch pinball title around this time next year.
    9:25
    That also, there's not much more information needed. You all now know our timelines. If you have any questions, fire.
    9:43
    It's pretty empty here. Everybody can sit here. It works. I think it works. So you're saying that even if we didn't get in on the Alice, if we got in on Raza, that we would be on that 500? No. Everybody who got in on their Alice and don't back out – so for me, I don't care if you bought a preorder spot from somebody else. If you paid in full and get your game delivered, one of the 500, your name is on that invoice, you're eligible to be the first one on the pre-order list for the next future Dutch Pinball title and also to be just the first one to get it shipped to you. Okay. That doesn't apply to Raza then? No, because Raza is something else, and it makes it very difficult because Raza has less numbers and all that stuff. So I just wanted to focus on getting it next to there. I came in about 30 seconds late, so I might have missed it. I do have a preorder for Alice, and I don't know if you gave a timeline on that. Yes. Where are we at with that timeline? So we're now halfway done with the Alice builds. We're doing about 40 to 45 a month, and the end timeline now is it for all 500 is around the end of March. so we're about three months overdue um and we know that uh and about the topper situation i don't know if you you were in here there um so almost every game that goes out now got a topper and um we are getting more and more toppers in every every week so the only things that sets us back at this moment to ship out anybody who doesn't have a topper is we have to create a box for that topper because we never intended to have it shipped without a game so now we're just getting ready to get that box done and then getting them sent over um it depends it all depends on the timeline but what we try to do is we get batches so it means that um let's say 10 games are done we're trying to save them up to about 30 games because it saves a lot of shipping costs. And we don't ship by container. We always ship by plane.
    12:13
    So yeah, we make a little bit of groups to do so. Okay. Melvin, I've got a slew of questions right here for you. I'm going to throw them at you. I didn't even tell you I had these. But these are from an owner of your Alice, recent owner. So here we go.
    12:33
    How much more code is planned for the game? Like animations, callouts, etc. So on code and callouts, I try to implement as much as I can. So every week I still try to work on it. It's not like we're doing a new game or abandoning. So you can see more code updates throughout the months to come.
    12:53
    Are they putting in a mode for doing the five-story modes before having to collect everything for lighting the Queen of Hearts? Sorry, did you get that? Yeah, I know. I don't know the game very well either. Are they putting in a mode for doing the five-story modes before having to collect everything for lighting the Queen of Hearts?
    13:13
    Like SideQuest or something? I don't know, man. I don't understand. Didn't you do the game? No. No, so yeah, of course, yeah, I know you have to get all the Wonder Letters or the modes to get – where the problem was I was thinking about maybe making the wizard mode maybe easier or more accessible or just you can start it off in a game. But the reason I didn't do it because most of the times you want to experience the wizard mode. And everybody who has been there and got to the game is like, okay, I've done it. Okay, was that it? And then the fun goes away from the game. So I'm just trying to see what I can do with the different modes and all the wizard stuff coming up. All right. Is there going to be a mode for collecting all of the suits No So the suits you collect outside of a mode So you collect them by completing certain shots So it's not a mode per se on itself. It's while you're traveling Wonderland, you just collect all the suits. And now on the code update, because I don't know if everybody has the update yet, but now on the new update, it has a screen, and it tells you in which directions now the suits are located so you can find them because in the beginning, they were never to be found because the information screen wasn't there. So it was pretty hard to find the suits anyway, but now it's much easier to locate. All right. Is there going to be a mode for collecting all Wonders letters?
    14:36
    No, not planned. All right. Why does the pocket watch screen sometimes go back to the screen with smoke around the edges instead of showing what suits to be collected still?
    14:49
    That's probably a bug. All right. Why does the skill shot get canceled out when made but don't show if you had cat lit for story mode or adventure?
    15:04
    In what way? Because – so the skill shot gets canceled out if you hit the rollover or a pub bumper. So, I mean, I'm just going by. Okay. No, that's fine.
    15:17
    Yeah. He's torturing me. He's a new buyer. He's excited. He loves the game, but he just wanted to get some questions answered. Are we going to get a better animation for Midnight Madness? Just a black – Yes. No, no, no. So at this stage, it's called a placeholder. We're still working on a status screen, and so that's what I said. We're updating all that stuff in the upcoming months. All right. Is Tweedledee and Tweedledum going to be put into the game as some type of mode?
    15:46
    It was on a planning, and we didn't put it in. So I don't know if it's coming back. At this stage, I would say no. Okay. I think I'm done now. That's good. Really? Okay.
    15:59
    Anybody else have deep questions? Yeah, I came in a tad late. So could you recap the whole topper situation? Are they being drop shipped? Yep, no problem. So almost most of the games shipping out right now got a topper. We are getting more toppers in than we ship out games. The only thing, so we're now anticipating to getting everybody their topper shipped. The only problem that we have is that the topper was never intended to be shipped outside the game. So we have to find the rugged bugs and everything so your topper gets to you in one piece. That's the thing that's a little bit of a setback right now, but probably in the next few weeks they'll be shipping out.
    16:46
    Just a follow-up question. It was mentioned Raza. Was there an announcement for Raza? Yes. So Raza just got announced. With the focus is that Alice is our most important thing. You know, a lot of people still wait under Alice. So we're not doing a full official reveal until probably February, March, because then is where we end the line for Alice for the 500 units. But I already wanted to let people know what the timeline is going to be for 2026. So the next game coming up is going to be Raza. Yes. so that's on your website the raza game sorry the raza game is on your dpx website no it will be a full reveal on february march okay it's going to be sorry what theme is that i've never heard of that retro atomic zombie land adventure land no okay it's uh it's a game um a lot a lot of history yeah you can you can write a book about it so i'll google it yeah Yeah, it's – by the way, it's 333 units. Right, okay. And there's no announcement of what the theme was going to be on your next machine in a year.
    17:57
    I just said something about that. So it's Raza, and we'll probably see the future Dutch pinball title somewhere around this time next year. Right.
    18:11
    No. Yes. so in regards to those of us that do know what retro atomic zombie adventureland is and those of us who did get a chance to play it i mean can you elaborate by chance on any kind of upgrades or anything that you've done so the game was re uh well um so uh the game was rebuilt from the ground up based on the whole dpx systems and and so we made some geometry tweaks to the game because I know for a certain fact that especially the rams didn't work. A lot of rejects. There was a ramp on the right side that was there for air, for nothing. If you just got a rejected ball, it just bounced it up there. So I added some magnets to it so when you shoot it, it grabs it and it chucks it back the other way. So there's a lot of stuff. On the outside, you probably won't see it that much, but we did a lot of stuff that's making it much better.
    19:10
    I have a question. Are you going to complete the trilogy of John Papaduke's dreams, Alice, Raza, and Magic Girl?
    19:24
    To be honest, Magic Girl, I think, deserves a remaster, so to say. but it's in my mind but the problem with Magic Girls there's so much that needs to be fixed on that game it's for now it's Alos, Raza Dutch Pinball title and then we'll see if there's any chance I would probably love to do it but we'll see
    20:02
    the uh the price went up and that wasn't your fault if if somebody has a deposit and they just can't swing the higher price are they going to be let out of their deposit yes and it also means that everybody who lets their pre-order spot go for alice um they will never be eligible for the first 500 on the next game but i understand the problem and i i also understand i hear some people say yeah but i gotta i gotta deal with my distro for a certain price you know i but i think nobody in here nobody in europe nobody wanted this um and i think you know we gotta give and take a little bit and i know you know pinball is getting expensive um and i feel sorry if you if you have to let the preorder go because it too expensive but you eligible to get a full refund by 1st of January 2026
    21:05
    Hey, Melvin. This is great news. As you know, I've been in on these games for over 10 years. I was in on both of these with J-Pop, and I've seen a lot of history with this. But last year I talked to you, and you said that you have all the IP from Deep Root, and you said that you weren't going to do Raza. What changed your mind?
    21:25
    Well, I said I wouldn't do Raza because I first wanted to launch Alice, and I wanted to, you know, Alice was already controversial. You know, it was a hit and miss because there was a lot of negativity around it, and, you know, I think we proved with Alice that we can pull something off that's better. We deliver the games. And at one point I was like, you know what? A lot of people ask me about Raza and can you do this or can you do that? And I was at one point, if I can make it better and I can give people what they want, why wouldn't I do it?
    22:03
    Yeah. So going back to the Raza thing, with regards to code, because a lot of the code was based on Steve Bowden's code. Is it all being revamped? to read no so the code uh from bowden uh is almost intact uh we did some tweaking but all the animations like you know in deep root um that's still there david thiel's audio package is still there and there what a lot of people don't know they were pretty far into releasing the game because people probably saw it in 2020 but they worked on to about 21 so the code was a lot more experience by then um one extra thing i because everybody know that deep root use the widescreens on raza game we do use a new speaker panel that fits into the lineup of the dutch uh pinball library but it's got to have the widescreen because to rewrite all the animations what they've done it would have set us back another year so it's easier for us to just implement the best things about it and just go with it. But we are adding, because we are adding magnets to the game and some other stuff for the light shows, so we are basically just adding and hacking some stuff to make that work. And as far as the price point?
    23:30
    At this point, I cannot say anything about it. What I can say is it's probably going to be a little bit more expensive than Alice.
    23:39
    You get a much more limited game, and the topper is an option on the game that also takes the value of the game a little bit back for the entry. Like I said, you can order the game with the topper or without, but if you order it without the topper, we will never build that topper for you again.
    24:01
    Is the topper the same as the one that was on the Deep Roof version or is it something new entirely? No, it's an interactive topper with the game and it moves. So it's not a flat plastic.
    24:12
    yeah it was just three light bulbs just like that yeah no yeah i was just wondering what what is the price increase on alice i didn't so the price increase i so it was i think 15 and the problem is is we sell the game in euro to the distributor also in the u.s and unfortunately the dollar at this point to the euro the dollar is worth less so it's creeping up and also with the 15 of the tariffs going up we already we said the distributor and and dutch will take the five percent but um the game can now be i don't know 12 or or 13 but it can also be in a week it can be 13 one because of the inflection of the euro to dollar conversion and when they bought it so it's it's it's yeah it's just every day is different and is there a way to find out where in the queue we are i was asked the same question yesterday um and the problem is we don't know because we don't know what your distributor sold you at what point what number you are and we uh when we ship out a batch to a distributor we give them the serial numbers so we know exactly which number went to what person uh but we i don't know what number you are right now you could be $4.99 or it could be maybe on the next shipment or maybe this shipment I don't know and I think the only way to figure that out is to call the distributor unfortunately okay thank you
    25:49
    repeat customer so in regards to aesthetics on Raza yes a lot of us know with the cabinet the deep root head will this be in a standard DP extra Dutch cabinet yes same cabinet as alice uh also the wonder rails with the lights and everything so it will be exact the same so no floating back boxes crazy stuff you will have just a normal looking game okay and continuing on with the aesthetics we know that alice looks as sexy as it does because of lior and the sculpts will we be getting the same inside of raza when it comes to Lior, we'll be seeing new sculpts compared to what we were offered in Deep Root. Yes. So we, of course, we remade some sculpts that they already had. We tweaked them, and also we added a lot of stuff. But with Alice, what the thing was, Alice didn't have any, you know, I always said no more flat plastics in all sculpts. The thing with Raza was because of the many ramps and all the layers they put,
    26:51
    I tried to do as much uh uh sculpts in there as possible but there will also be times that i have to choose okay here here's got to be a plastic because if i also you know i can cram a few hundred dollars worth of of sculpts under a ramp which you will never see and and hike up the price you know so i have to find a sweet spot but wherever i can fit a sculpt i will do it all right you want one you want a coin books or just a sculpt okay I guess we're out of questions anybody got any questions that will be at the at the Expo just walking around somebody have any questions that pops up later just tap me on the shoulder I'm more than happy to talk you over okay very much Williams thank you for being