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The Spinner Is Lit - Episode 62 Shark Eats Ball (It's Inconceivable)

The Spinner Is Lit Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 53m·analyzed·Mar 1, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Pinball debate: experience-driven design vs. shooting quality, centered on Jaws shark mechanics.

Summary

In this February 2024 episode of The Spinner Is Lit, hosts Spencer, Dan, Mark, and guest Eric Siefert discuss the design philosophy of modern pinball, centered on Keith Elwin's Jaws release. The core tension: whether pinball should prioritize mechanical/thematic "moments" and immersive experience or shooting quality and rule depth. They examine the shark-eating-ball controversy (a fan expectation unfulfilled in the physical toy but addressed by a $500 mod from Interactive Pinball), trace the evolution from experience-light games like Iron Maiden to experience-heavy titles like Stranger Things Premium and Labyrinth, and argue that modern home collectors increasingly value magical moments over pure gameplay.

Key Claims

  • Keith Elwin chose not to implement a shark-eating-ball mechanic in Jaws because it would compromise shooting quality and ball return flow.

    high confidence · Dan references Elwin's official explanation: 'we couldn't figure out a way to do it and still have the game shoot well.' Mark confirms this was the designer's intentional trade-off.

  • Interactive Pinball released a mod that allows the shark to eat the ball on Jaws Pro, costing approximately $500 and fundamentally changing the ball path.

    high confidence · Multiple hosts discuss the mod's existence, cost, and technical implementation. Dan notes it's a 'hardcore mod' that actually changes gameplay, not just aesthetics.

  • Jaws is expected to sell approximately 10,000 units, making it one of Stern's highest-volume releases.

    medium confidence · Speculation during discussion comparing mod adoption rate (100 units) to total Jaws production volume.

  • Modern pinball buyers—especially home collectors—increasingly prioritize immersive experience moments over gameplay depth.

    medium confidence · Spencer and Dan argue this is a shift in the hobby, evidenced by reception of experience-focused games like Stranger Things Premium and Labyrinth versus gameplay-heavy titles.

  • Stranger Things Premium's on-playfield screen (rather than backglass) was the decisive factor in player engagement, regardless of underlying game quality.

    medium confidence · Mark describes playing Stranger Things Premium at a friend's house and being converted from indifference to obsession purely by the screen placement and upside-down lighting kit experience.

  • Venom has been poorly received due to lack of memorable 'magic moments' beyond the captive ball mechanic.

    medium confidence · Multiple hosts note Venom's weak reception and lack of experience-driving mechanics, contrasting it with more successful games.

  • Interactive Pinball has created mods for multiple games (Rick and Morty Jerry Ramp, Avengers, Rush) that fundamentally alter ball paths and gameplay.

    high confidence · Mark discusses the modder's body of work and design philosophy of changing core gameplay mechanics.

Notable Quotes

  • “We couldn't figure out a way to do it and still have the game shoot well. And so we decided not to do it.”

    Keith Elwin (referenced by Dan) @ ~4:45 — Core statement of the design trade-off that sparked the episode's central debate.

  • “It's kind of the pinball experience in general. Like, what are you looking for to happen in your pinball machine and how do you feel about when people are making changes to it?”

    Dan @ ~6:30 — Frames the episode's thesis: experience vs. gameplay as the fundamental design tension.

  • “For me, what's most important is definitely gameplay. I really like when I see how a game shoots.”

    Mark @ ~8:00 — Establishes Mark's competitive-player perspective prioritizing shootability over spectacle.

  • “The experience can be achieved from the gameplay if there are important media aspects, including video, sound, and lights, that combine to make an experience where you're feeling like you're a shark hunter.”

    Mark @ ~12:45 — Articulates how Jaws achieves experience through integrated mechanics, not just toy animation.

  • “When you're changing the core experience, are you going too far? Or is it, in the pursuit of personal satisfaction, is nothing off limits?”

    Dan @ ~21:15 — Raises the ethical/philosophical question of modding vs. designer intent.

  • “I think you're starting to see a change from the more hardcore games... more experience-based games, more kind of pinball adventures. Like, if anything, it's going to sound kind of elitist, I'm not trying to be elitist, but kind of more casual games.”

    Spencer @ ~26:30 — Identifies an industry-wide shift toward experience-centric design as newer manufacturers compete.

  • “Ninety percent of the time I was playing Stranger Things Premium. Just the experience of the screen. Whole other level.”

    Mark @ ~42:00 — Personal anecdote demonstrating how a single experience element can override gameplay assessment.

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonInteractive PinballpersonSpencerpersonDanpersonMarkpersonEric SiefertpersonJawsgame

Signals

  • ?

    design_innovation: Pinball industry showing trend toward experience-centric design with interactive moments, character animations, and immersive mechanics (Stranger Things screen placement, Labyrinth toppers, Demogorgon animation) over pure shooting mechanics.

    high · Spencer identifies 'a change from the more hardcore games... more experience-based games, more kind of pinball adventures.' Multiple hosts cite examples of games that sold them on experience alone (Stranger Things Premium).

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin made explicit design choice to sacrifice shark-eating-ball mechanic (thematic expectation) to preserve shooting quality and ball flow in Jaws.

    high · Dan references Elwin's official statement: 'we couldn't figure out a way to do it and still have the game shoot well.' This represents a clear prioritization of gameplay flow over thematic completeness.

  • ?

    product_concern: Jaws' physical shark toy does not consume the ball as many players expected from the film's narrative, creating a disconnect between theme expectation and mechanical reality.

    high · Episode title 'Shark Eats Ball (It's Inconceivable)' frames the absent mechanic. Multiple hosts discuss community backlash over this missing thematic element despite positive gameplay reception.

  • ?

    technology_signal: Interactive Pinball represents emerging mod ecosystem that performs fundamental gameplay alterations (ball path changes, rule modifications) rather than cosmetic customization, with significant cost and technical complexity.

    high · Dan and Mark discuss Interactive Pinball's $500 shark mod and previous work (Jerry Ramp for Rick and Morty, Avengers, Rush mods). Characterized as 'changing the way that the game plays,' distinct from typical LED/flipper rubber mods.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.341

0:00
Hey, welcome to the Spinner's Lit Pinball Podcast. Tonight's episode is episode 62, Bollie Sharp. It's inconceivable. I'm your host, Spencer. And with me, as always, are my co-hosts, Dan. Hey, what's going on, folks?
0:36
Mark. Hey, everyone. And our special guest host back is Eric Siefert. Welcome, Eric. Hey-o! It's good to have you back. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me. Yeah, always good to have you guys back. It's February 2024, and we got some cool stuff to talk about tonight. Right. Yeah. I'm going to let you like, you know, grab the steering wheel and take us into the show. So you have a really neat topic idea of the experience of pinball. Yeah, I think that I was talking about this with the guys before the show and we thought, you know, we might want to share our opinions with you guys on this or at least have you share yours with ours.
1:22
But I don't know if anybody noticed, but recently there was a big game announcement. for Jaws. Anybody hear about that?
1:33
I heard something about it. There was a little controversy. I don't know if anyone's ever seen the Jaws movie, but a big part of that movie is that a shark eats people.
1:49
Oh, I thought it was a dude from James Bond. Yeah, yeah. No, no. Mark's got James Bond, if you want to talk about that. He loves that game. Oh, okay. And then when the game came out, it has the shark in it, and it turns out to have all the actors, and everybody's really happy about that. It's got assets and pictures and everything.

  • Iron Maiden, despite strong shooting mechanics, fails to retain home player interest due to insufficient experience moments.

    medium confidence · Spencer sold his Iron Maiden after a few years despite recognizing it as a 'great shooter' because it lacked memorable moments to sustain engagement.

  • “Every time I play the Pro, I'm like, eh. It just sits there. But then when it goes, and does that roaring sound and then it moves, it's like, you're pissing it off.”

    Mark (on Demogorgon in Stranger Things) @ ~51:30 — Demonstrates the power of animation and sound to transform player engagement.

    • Godzilla
    game
    Stranger Things Premiumgame
    Labyrinthgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Venomgame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Funhousegame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Doctor Whogame
    Stern Indiana Jonesgame
    Transformersgame
    Rick and Mortygame
    The Spinner Is Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    $

    market_signal: Home collectors showing willingness to invest significantly (Pro+ upgrade costs, mod costs) for experience-centric upgrades (screens, lighting kits, mechanical interactions) as differentiators.

    medium · Mark's Stranger Things Premium experience converted him despite Pro being adequate; discussion of upside-down lighting kit purchase; speculation that some Pro buyers might upgrade with shark mod specifically for experience.

  • ?

    community_signal: Home collector community increasingly values immersive experience moments while competitive/tournament players prioritize standard gameplay to maintain consistency across different machines.

    high · Dan notes competitive players wouldn't adopt the shark mod to maintain tournament-standard experience. Spencer and Mark contrast their evolving preferences as home collectors vs. early competitive mindset.

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Jaws received mixed initial reception around shark mechanic absence despite universal praise for overall design quality, suggesting disconnect between player expectations and designer priorities.

    medium · Episode opens with 'everybody lost their damn mind because at no point in the game does the physical shark toy eat the ball,' yet Mark and others praise it as excellent game. Shows community divided on what makes a 'complete' experience.

  • ?

    product_concern: Shark mod adoption likely to remain niche ($500 cost, technical complexity, risk of machine damage, low adoption rate relative to 10,000+ Jaws production volume).

    medium · Dan and Mark estimate perhaps 100 units sold of $500 shark mod against ~10,000 total Jaws machines. Concern raised about 'horror stories' of node board failures and hesitation from average owners to 'dig into the guts of the machine.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Home collectors increasingly abandon games lacking memorable 'magic moments' despite strong shooting mechanics, suggesting experience is now critical for long-term collection retention.

    medium · Spencer sold Iron Maiden despite recognizing it as great shooter because 'it didn't hold my attention.' Contrast with continuous engagement on Stranger Things Premium due to screen experience.

  • $

    market_signal: Licensed IP quality and integration (Richard Dreyfuss voice, authentic assets) perceived as essential to modern game appeal and differentiator in competitive market.

    medium · Mark emphasizes 'I don't think this game would have been as good if they didn't have all the assets from the movie.' Suggests licensing deals are now competitive advantage for manufacturers.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Hosts perceive modern games as recycling established mechanical concepts (rings from Lord of the Rings, etc.) rather than introducing fundamentally new mechanics, shifting value to execution and experience.

    medium · Mark states: 'I'm waiting for something to come out that we've never seen before, but it seems like everything's been reinvented... Maybe it improved a little bit.' Suggests mechanical innovation saturation.

    • 2:09
    But there's no part in the game, at least not in the physical game, because it is in a mode, right, Mark? A back glass or a display mode where the shark eats people? Correct.
    2:26
    I haven't seen it anywhere. Why do you think the shark did eat people? Well, yeah, the shark eats people.
    2:33
    Yeah, of course. Well, no. I don't know. We have to talk about that. Let's find out. So everybody lost their damn mind because at no point in the game does the physical shark toy, which is a bash toy on the premium and LE and a static, you know, just figurine on the pro, eat the ball.
    3:02
    And then it turns out that some, like, genius modder called Interactive Pinball, who's been doing a lot of mods that do some fundamental changes to the game, he fixed that. He made a mod for the pro where the shark eats the ball. and that's a quandary I think for a lot of people because it changes aspects of the game, it changes the way that the game plays, it changes the designer's original intention but it addresses the fact that something that the game didn't do that so many people wanted it to do now the game can do and I was just wondering how does everybody feel about pinball these days where is it more important to you that the game has experiences where you get to see things happen that maybe you expect to happen or maybe you'd be delighted to see happen? Or is it more important to you that the game shoots well? Because Elwin's official explanation was just straight out like, we couldn't figure out a way to do it and still have the game shoot well. And so we decided not to do it. and you know I was like I get that I can get behind that I can understand that but at the same time like I would be lying if I said I was disappointed that there wasn't you know a part where you know you got to either you know try to shoot the ball into the shark's mouth so that you could, you know, spoiler alert, you know, you could kill it, like at the end of the movie, or a part where, you know, the shark eats the ball to simulate, you know, the shark eating people or eating objects.
    4:59
    Mm-hmm. Well, you have a good point there, Dan, about experience versus shots, right? Is that what we're pretty much getting at? Well, it's kind of the pinball experience in general. like, you know, what are you looking for to happen in your pinball machine and how do you feel about when people are making changes to it? Or, you know, how do you feel when something that you thought a game should absolutely do is denied? I mean, the experience of pinball, I think, is to a lot of modern pinball fans maybe more important even than how the pinball plays. But then you have the other side of the coin. you have competitive players or, you know, just straight shooters who, like, the gameplay is going to be more important than anything, you know, combos and shots and makeability and stuff like that. So, you know, what's most important to you?
    5:59
    Well, for me, what's most important is definitely gameplay. I really like when I see how a game shoots. And I'm going to tell you, like we said before in the last couple of months, when we heard about Jaws coming out and then we saw it and we saw the reveal and we saw the stream, I noticed that I could not really properly judge until I play it. And that's usually the way it should be, for sure, that we don't have to judge right away until we actually play the game. And I know Pinside gets on that bandwagon when they're always bitching and complaining about things and having no evidence of actually playing the game. So I like, it's entertaining. I like looking at people and seeing what their perspective is, and you see both sides, and it's interesting what their arguments are. But at the same time, really, it boils down to how it shoots first. Second is how the rules are implemented when you make those shots. And number three is the experience. But the experience can be achieved from the gameplay if there are important media aspects, including video, sound, and lights, that combine to make an experience where you're feeling like you're a shark hunter. And that is how I see it when I play it, is that it gives me that experience of on an adventure, kind of like Jurassic Park, where you had to save the people. here you're kind of saving the people in a way but you're you're you're pretty much eliminating sharks as a shark hunter and uh obviously there's ways that it's going to flip later on when they do more advanced code but from playing the game i had an opportunity to play in le last night and i remember elwin saying in the background or in his in podcasts various ones that they made the choice to have the shark appear to come out of the water faster than what they had originally planned, having it as an elevator where it would just go in the mouth and then it would drop down and it would come up slowly. And I see where they're getting because the way they designed it, how it comes out on an angle, at first I was like, oh, it just pops up from under a boat. But the way they have it come up on an angle, it really does look like it's coming out of the water. And it's pretty impressive. The other thing I like about it with the experience is bashing the out of it. It's fun because you don't have to feel forced to try to make it eat the ball. But then on the other hand, there was an instance where the ball got stuck on the side of the sharp. And what was really wild about it is it had to do a ball search. And that might be a good or a bad thing, depending on how you perceive that. But what was really cool to see is that it looked like the ball was getting dragged down underneath the water when it did the ball search and then the ball disappeared. And I'm like, well, there you go. It ate the ball. No, it didn't go in the mouth, but it did get pulled down. Just like what you see in the movie when they pull the victims down, you know, when the, when the shark pulls them by the legs and then pulls them under the water. And that girl goes, Ooh, you know, going underneath where the buoy is. That's how I felt when that ball was going underneath. I was like, this is really cool. And then, of course, it went back up and it went back into play. But I was like, well, there is an opportunity where it did kind of slow gameplay down. So I'm thinking, well, if that happened all the time and you shot it into the mouth, then it would be like, oh, you got to wait until it comes back somehow. And maybe they could have designed it better to have it faster to get return to your flippers and stuff. But I see why they made that choice. and I have to say that playing the LE with the flow and just being able to bash it and then have it go disappear, it really is effective. And it definitely, even though it didn't eat the ball like people wanted, I have to say that the experience is there and it is just a freaking fun game. There's no doubt about it. You played a pro too, right? I played a pro too and a pro is just as good. I mean, yes, the glitz and glamour of it is amazing. The way that they did the side art is nothing I've ever seen before.
    10:23
    Like normal ones, you see it where it has that bright look to it, but it almost had a shimmering look on the side like you're looking under the water. I can't explain it until you see it in person. It's really impressive. And then the trim that they used, the white color that they chose, looks really nice. And pictures never do it justice until you see it in person. But it was very nicely done. And then the back glass was, instead of having it like the old Jaws art for poster, it still had that, but it had accents around it. So it had more of like a black outline around the letters. And it kind of had that mirror look to it. Really impressive. The other thing I liked about it for experience, and no one else noticed this until I played it and I saw somebody else playing it, is the speaker kit that comes with it with the expression lighting that's around the speakers. That does interact with the game because when you hit the chum bucket, the speaker lights flash red and then it shows like blue around the edges of the speaker and it keeps filling in all the way around the circle, matching the amount of lighting that is around the fin that pops up. Oh, that's cool. That is cool because you see it and then all of a sudden it flashes. So you know you hit the chum bucket. And then, like I said, it shows it with it increasing so you can see how far you are to hitting the chum bucket when you can start a multiball.
    12:02
    Really cool. And the other thing that's neat is it's not just red and blue, but when you finish a bounty and you get the multiball, it turns blue and green. So it matches with all the inserts around the play field. Really done well. I was impressed. And like I said, the assets are great.
    12:23
    And it's Elwin. Elwin, I'm telling you right now, it's going to be just as good as Godzilla as more and more people play this. It is super fun. Yeah.
    12:33
    So, yes, the experience is totally there. Absolutely. It's amazing how they do the soundtrack, too, because you have the sound and it starts off, you know, with the typical dun-dun-dun-dun, but then you have the other parts of the score in the movie, and it progressively gets more intense as you get through the modes. The way that they use the assets, I don't think this game would have been as good, if they didn't have all the assets from the movie. It just fits so well. And when you have the opportunity to start the multiball with the barrels, you know, they get in the video, they show the barrels getting pulled off of the boat and everything when they hit them with the harpoon. And then, you know, Richard Dreyfuss is on there. He's like, now, now, now. You know, and you're just so intense because you're trying to hit that fin and then you don't. You're like, oh, man, I got to do it again. It's just that one more game appeal. Alan knocked it out of the park. I'm telling you, people are going to love this game. More and more people play it, for sure. And like I said, the Pro doesn't really miss anything in gameplay. So if you're looking for a budgeted version of that game, the Pro is totally sufficient. Regarding the upper play field, it's very satisfying when you hit that reel, but I don't think it's that necessary. It really doesn't need to be in there. So Those are my thoughts Okay cool No that's cool So on the experience of pinball When Dan talked about it It made me think of something else Because we talked about this before About you know Like the shark eating the ball thing I go back to the A couple games like the original Jurassic Park Where the dinosaur ate the ball But we also have to look at the time frame And there weren't a lot of people collecting pinball machines at that time. So you go to your pizza place, your arcade, wherever, and you play that game for the first time, and you see the T-Rex eat the ball. And you're like, okay, wow, that's really cool. And then you tell your friends at school or work or whatever, and they go play it, and you go back and play it again, and you have that experience. And the lighting and the sound all played into that.
    14:55
    You know, there's plenty of games like that. I can think of, you know, there's Jurassic Park. There's Funhouse, you know, Rudy following the ball with his eyes and taunting you and where, you know, where he coughs up the ball.
    15:17
    You know, there's the sinking ship from Pirates of the Caribbean. There's the Doctor Who, you know. There's tons of games that have those moments, you know, and the lighting can be a huge part of it.
    15:33
    The stern Indiana Jones is like that with multiball, with the lighting and the arc of the covenant where it opens and tips out and pours out all the balls. So you have those moments of that pinball experience and go, oh, I had that experience. I killed Kenny, whatever. But then I think more and more with the – and this is what's weird because more people now have pinball in their homes. I think a lot of the people pissing and moaning about the shark not eating the ball are people that have it in their home. It's like, okay, is it more for the experience, like Dan said, of just, oh, having that moment or like with the deep rules in the gameplay? Because if the rules are really shallow, typical game I think of from the past, like Elvira, Scare Stiff, one of my favorite games to shoot. That thing shoots like butter. I love the call-outs. I love everything about that game. But it doesn't have a very deep rule set. So having it at home for a long time, especially if you only have one or two games, that's probably going to get stale real fast. But it has great moments.
    16:36
    That's kind of the thing. Like what Mark was saying about Jaws, I mean, wasn't really what I was going for. Obviously, Jaws is going to be a great game, right? It's a Keith Elwin. The guy, you know, is basically doing no wrong. you know it's a loved theme that that that people want to play um and to me like I think that when they said hey that one's doing Jaws we all knew Jaws was going to be a great game why are people hating on it so hard because it's missing this one particular moment and is it right for someone to go in and add that moment to their game yeah so I'll answer your question I'll be a little more I apologize. Like I said, nice job review.
    17:24
    Yeah, okay. All right, so here's the thing. So if we're talking about an experience, okay, the experience for me on that game, if there's one thing, is that pin popping out and hitting it.
    17:39
    That makes that game fun. Right. That's clearly their big toy in that game. That's their big toy, and it's included in both versions, right? It is cool. Yes, yes. But as far as people who want something more, well, somebody came up with the idea, and now they have a choice. If they really want to have the ball be eaten by the shark, then they can go with that mod and purchase it. And the ball is like, what, 500 bucks?
    18:10
    Right. I don't know. Hopefully anyone who's listening to us has seen this, but it's essentially like a moving shark head that you shoot the ball into, and then it goes through, and it comes out an up kicker and comes back down the ramp. And as far as the mod goes, like, dude, it's fucking cool.
    18:31
    Yeah, that's a pretty hardcore mod. It's a very interesting mod because it actually changes the ball path of the actual game. You don't see much. You usually see toys that interact with it, but not changing the ball path. And that's kind of this guy's jam. Like, he's done a bunch of mods. He did the Jerry Ramp for Rick and Morty. He's done some for Avengers, and he's done some for Rush. And what was the other game? God, there was another one, too. Let me look at the website real quick. But he's done a bunch of these mods that actually changed the way that the game plays. You know, and, you know, I think that we've said a lot about mods, right, where mods are like, hey, man, it's your game. You want to stick accent figures or colored lights on it or do this or do that.
    19:19
    You know, yeah, do what you like. But when you're changing the core experience, are you going too far?
    19:28
    You know, or is it, you know, in the pursuit of personal satisfaction is nothing off limits. If you've got the game and you've got the money, like I could foresee people not buying a premium and buying a pro so they could put this mod on it. Like, I think it's that good of a mod. I mean, I don't know if I would put it on mine because as somebody who plays in competition, I would want the game to play standard. Right, right. I think also it really depends on the person that buys a pro and has it in their home. That's a pretty serious mod to do on your machine. that's not a, it's not simple like putting LEDs in an older machine or putting a light strip in or maybe changing the silicone flipper rubbers, things like that. It's not something small. It's like you're digging into the guts of the machine and, you know, you're doing something with, obviously doing something with the programming or doing something that's triggered off existing programming in the network that's already there. I don't know if a lot of people are really going to, they're willing to roll the 500 bucks and then take a chance on possibly damaging their machine. I mean, you always hear these horror stories about people having bad node boards and then having to deal with Stern. I don't know if everybody's going to go for that, but I think it's a cool mod. I think, I think I would like to play one that has that in it and see how much it really, it really changes things, but it looks cool from the video. It's just, I don't know if it's something that average pinball owners want to dig into, you know. Oh, yeah. There'll definitely be a small percentage of people who are actually going to do that. But, you know, is this guy going to sell 100 of these things, 1,000 of these things? No. Oh, he'll absolutely sell 100.
    21:20
    Yeah, maybe 100, but I don't think it's going to be much. Keep in mind, they're probably going to sell 10,000 jaws.
    21:26
    That's a good point. If it's as good as Mark's saying and being the next Elwynn, if it's half as good as Godzilla, they're going to sell a ton of them.
    21:37
    True. But, you know, just going back to what you were talking about, Dan, if you're a competitive player and you're planning to play in tournaments, the chances of running into a pro with this mod on it in a tournament is pretty low, so you likely wouldn't want to do that to your own machine. If you're a competitive player that, you know, perhaps is traveling or whatever to some of these shows specifically to play tournaments because you don't want to play a machine you're never going to see and get used to a machine you'll never see because I would think that would be a disadvantage in a tournament.
    22:08
    Right. Because you're not used to the standard pro model or the standard premium or the LE model. You're used to playing something that's a one-off that doesn't have the same gameplay.
    22:20
    Now, here's a question for the, when you shoot the ball towards the shark, Does it use the optos to determine how it advances through the code? Because with the original design, you have to hit the capture ball, and then it must go over optos, right? Yeah, apparently it uses all the original sensors and whatnot. Like it doesn't change the actual rules of the game.
    22:47
    So, you know, if you haven't watched the video, watch the video. So, but less than, you know, less than just obsessing on the Jaws mod. It's just, you know, if you're looking at what's happening in pinball right now, I think you're starting to see a change from, like, the more hardcore games, right? You're starting to see more experience-based games, more kind of pinball adventures. Like, if anything, it's going to sound kind of elitist. I'm not trying to be elitist, but kind of more casual games. like Labyrinth.
    23:22
    Like Labyrinth doesn't look like a killer. It looks like it wants you to keep the ball going and it wants you to watch the ball do things. Godzilla, that was another thing with Godzilla. Even as a pro, it was a friendlier game than some of the stuff that Elwin had done previously. And especially when you went into premium in the LE, it had a lot of mechanical things, watching the building go down, watching the Godzilla thing happen. But watching the ball whiz around, you know, it's one of the things that a certain podcaster, you know, named Kaneda, loves to talk about is, you know, the world under glass and, you know, the magic of pinball. I think that you're starting to see a lot more of people who are like, hey, you know, and I know Keith Elwin's, you know, the world's greatest pinball player. And I think his number one priority is always going to be how well does a game shoot? but I think it's becoming more and more important to people, you know,
    24:22
    especially the people who are buying pinball now, the very, very vocal fan base, that the game has some magic, that it brings them in, that it's not just about how well it shoots or, you know, what kind of combo potential it has, but that people want to be amazed again.
    24:43
    Yeah, people want to have that 90s feel. I mean, there's just certain moments, like we talked about in previous episodes, those greatest moments. Even, like, Adam's telling when you know multiball is going to start, just the way that it's probably one of the most amazing ways of introducing multiball about to start with the way that it ramps up the lights and, you know, and the sound effects and everything. It's just awesome. You know me, I'm a big moments guy. Like, again, thing grabbing the hand to me is like, you know, I can be happy when that happens. Of course, you know, again, my evolution as a pinball player, you know, I have to be a little bit more like, yeah, you know, thing actually grabbing the hand might not be always the be-all, end-all. You know, I'd like to get some super jackpots, please. But I think. Yeah, I mean, you have a good point. I mean, the thing that I discover with that is in order for a game to have that appeal, to get sucked into the story, I do have to agree that there have to be moments. There has to be something that makes that game unique compared to other ones that grabs you in, that makes that, oh, wow, I want to see that again. And there's always something. You can name a game, and you can say, oh, that's something that's memorable, and it usually does have something to do with some kind of mech and something magical happened with the ball. And the games that we've had today haven't really done anything innovative yet that I've seen that hasn't been done before. However, on the same token, the way that the recycled ideas are implemented in these games does help make the game appealing based on the theme that they're trying to get across.
    26:37
    But I just think what's interesting is that they... I'm waiting for something to come out that we've never seen before, but it seems like everything's been reinvented. I mean, like Drush, for example, you saw the ring with Lord of the Rings. But still, it was a cool implementation to make it new, but at the same time, the same technology. Maybe it improved a little bit. But then there's other games that don't really have that. I can tell you one that I don't feel has a moment or a thing that really sucks you in, and that's Venom. There's really nothing there except hitting that captive ball. That is kind of fun to hit Spider-Man and get him up higher and higher and stuff like that. But can you really think of a moment that ropes you in on that? And, yeah, and look at how Venom has been received, right? Exactly.
    27:31
    And I honestly kind of like Venom. Like, I've played it a couple times at my kosher's house, and he's got a pro, so it's not even the fancy version. And the more I play it, the more I'm like, oh, man, this game is, like, a really good, you know, just fast, and the ball zips all over the place, and it's satisfying to make shots, but it doesn't have much magic to it. No, it doesn't. And that's not to say that a game has to have, you know, some sort of big mechanical toy.
    28:05
    Tons of people love Iron Maiden. Iron Maiden, especially in the pro trim, doesn't have really anything like that. It's got shots. It's got flippers. It's got a jump.
    28:15
    And it still a great game if you know that what you looking for But I think that as we go on you know you seeing more and more that like the games are kind of getting more complex mechanically and you seeing you know like, I like to come back to Labyrinth because I haven't played Labyrinth yet. I really want to play Labyrinth, just from the standpoint that it looks like a cool game. I'm not a huge Labyrinth fan or anything. But I like the fact that it's got characters popping out and interacting, not necessarily with the ball, but with you, and it's got the topper with the people talking to you, the monsters talking, and basically they're talking to you. Like they're talking back like I was watching Don's stream where he was kind of doing his introductions, game was on in the background, and the topper kept yelling at him to launch the ball.
    29:07
    And I was like, that's neat, because that's where you're buying into the interactivity of the living world of pinball and the magic of the experience of playing that pinball versus just, well, I'm going to sit down and make a lot of shots. And I'll tell you, like, at my house, I had Iron Maiden for a few years. Iron Maiden's a great shooter.
    29:29
    But I got over it. I got rid of it. It didn't hold my attention because there was never a moment. I have games that are definitely arguably crappier than Iron Maiden. you know I have transformers and I think it's fun when you know you're playing and you're launching the ball even though it doesn't have any big interactivity you know mechanical moments either at least it has you know the same sort of mechanism where you're launching the ball but you're launching it at a character as opposed to just at a target and you're either fighting them or you're getting them to start your mode and you know when that comes up I'm like oh yes this is the part that I want to play I can't wait to launch the ball and hit Optimus Prime right in his, you know, right in his Optimus Primes.
    30:19
    Yeah. I have to say, when we're talking about pinball experiences, I know, Rusty, you may remember this. I remember when Stranger Things came out and we had a little get-together at a local arcade where they were getting Stranger Things. That's right. and we played that and I'm just like I'll admit I'm a fan of the show, I'm like man I can't wait to play this thing and I play them like, you know what's cool and stuff and the shots are pretty good and it's kind of interesting but you know what, I never would seek it out after that, it's like it just didn't do anything for me, you know, and I was over at a friend's house over at Shannon's place and he just got his Stranger Things Premium, and the experience won me over. Just the experience of the screen. Yep. Yeah, whole other level. And it almost has nothing to do with the play of the game at all. Just that one thing. I played that pin more than anything else the whole time I was there, and I was at Chan's house for a Super Bowl party. I was there maybe six hours, eight hours. Ninety percent of the time I was playing Stranger Things Premium. It just, it was that good. I'm just like, this is so cool that you don't have to look up at the bath box to see the video part or whatever. Right. Another little thing we're trying to pull you in with. It's right on the play field. But without having the screen in the play field, say like some of the other games we had seen, you know, initial aliens had the screen in the play field, didn't it? Yeah, the Highway one did.
    32:00
    Yeah. So that was really cool. And the other little cool mechanical thing they did with the ball lock that's on the back box, kind of like kids. Yeah, the PK lock. That was pretty cool, too, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was pretty neat. But I'm just like, man, I didn't think the screen was going to make that much of a difference. Totally made a difference on that game. Well, when you had targets that change in real time. Yeah, the targets change. That's so cool. That is the coolest thing I've ever seen. Eric, does he have a jump-side-down lighting kit on his? I'm not sure if he did because I think he just got it so he may not because that is the experience moment in that game when the lighting goes off and all the black light comes on and you see all the different detail and stuff and the plastics and the play field like you just go like oh this is awesome and yeah Stranger Things is a decent game even on the pro you have a launch ramp and you're fighting that monster thing, although you're just kind of trying to hit the ball up in its hole. But yeah, when you actually get all that fancy lighting and stuff into it, it becomes a completely different experience. And that game sells itself because you're just like, oh, this is actually pretty dope. Yeah, and the other thing too is when the Demogorgon shakes, when it gets pissed when you hit it, that's way more effective than just having it sit there static. Right. Way more effective. I mean, every time I play the Pro, I'm like, eh. It just sits there. But then when it goes, and does that roaring sound and then it moves, it's like, you're pissing it off. You want to snap the hell out of it. Playdown lighting on the Pro does get it close, though. It's still like, that's a neat feature, but yes. It's brilliant. The animated, yeah. I always forget that the Demogorgon is actually motorized or at least manipulated.
    34:02
    That's something so it moves on its own. I was... So yeah, that's just... And again, it's the difference between like, well, this game's cool. I'm going to play it a few times. I'm like, I want to play this game. I want to see these things happen. Yes. The experience on that thing totally sold me. Not the shooting, not anything else. It's just the experience. I was just like, I want to play this more and see what else it does. You know, I'm not just going to spend a buck or hang out at a friend's place for a half hour or something. It's like I want to spend like serious time on this thing and see where it goes. Like if we were all standing around a pro with no special features on it playing against each other, that becomes the experience.
    34:50
    Right, right. But if you're, you know, if you're at home, if you have one at home and you're practicing by yourself, you're just, you know, you're just trying to get the mechanical stuff down. Just get the timing down, that kind of stuff. You're not really paying attention to the game. Yeah, you're playing casually. You want to see crap happen.
    35:08
    Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily have to be big, fancy mechanical toys, but you just, you know, imagine the medieval madness where the castle doesn't blow up. Okay, easy. It's Attack from Mars.
    35:23
    Attack from Mars is right, right? I'm not taking anything away from Attack from Mars. Attack from Mars is excellent, you know. And some people would argue it is better. They're wrong, but I'll let them argue that, and I love both the games. But Medieval Madness is better because they added in the experience of the exploding castle. Although Jiggly Martians are pretty freaking cool.
    35:44
    That's true. That's true, yeah. You know, you don't even have to, like, you know, point at Stern and go, like, why are you taking all the cool magic out of games? because, you know, I think Stern's trying their best. You know, they put in, you know, you don't have a dinosaur that eats the ball on the premium in the alley of Jurassic Park.
    36:02
    But it throws it around, and then it sometimes throws it on the play field, and sometimes it nicely places it on the habit trail. It's cool. I mean, it's funny how Kaneda constantly bitches about no magic in the games, but when I look back, Stern's come up with some pretty cool stuff. I mean, who would have thought the idea of speaking of Stranger Things when it looks like a drive-in, right? You're looking at a drive-in, and all of a sudden the screen opens up, and it becomes a ramp. That's pretty cool. Yeah. You know, and then you have to shoot it inside the mouth. There we go. There's another one that eats the ball, you know? I mean, it's innovative.
    36:39
    It's an ugly pro, by the way, when it doesn't have a screen, and it's just the buildings on there. Yeah, it sucks. No, Prima or Ellie is the way to go for Stranger Things, no doubt. Or another mech is just the ball lock on Aerosmith, right? Who the hell thought of that? That's crazy. Yeah, that's true. Throws the ball through the air. It's dope. Through the air. Yeah, it's cool. It's cool.
    37:09
    I'm trying to think, like, now here's a good example. Foo Fighters, great shooter. What moments are there, really? it grabs the ball and has the post oh it's the dead post is absolutely the thing in that game that if you do it you're just like oh this is sick it's so simple it's just a freaking post that pops up but having it bounce off of it makes it cool it's a thing that happens that like makes the game cool and you know the point of it really wasn't to like say hey you know, screw straight shooters, they're not good. They're great. And if that's what you're looking for in your games, it's wonderful. But it does seem to me like the magic of pinball is trying to come back. And you're seeing these games like Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre where they're really bringing the themes in and they're putting tons of characters and interesting mechanisms. and what was the one that Spooky did just before? Scooby-Doo. Man, Scooby-Doo's got so much cool shit that happens in that game. Scooby-Doo's cool. Yeah, like moving shelves, and, I mean, they really fixed the sound, thank God.
    38:26
    The sound is way better. Oh, my gosh, yeah. You know, everybody's game to pick on these days, Tank Force, you know, where you have the tanks moving around and you have the alien pop out of it, And there's just so much cool stuff that games do that you get to this part of the game, and the lighting is a big thing in that one too, where, you know, things happen, and you're just like, oh, dude, oh, my gosh, this is so great, rather than just like, oh, I made five or six shots and got a lot of points.
    38:57
    And speaking of experience, when you're talking about how, you know, how you want to feel as a pinball player, Jack Danger for a Foo Fighters said, let's have people experience a dust save without actually bashing their hands against the side of the machine and busting it. It's a dust save. It's a dust save, but it's a legal dust save, you know? Who knows what this will bring out, but I think Jack just had a birthday a couple days ago, so if he does listen, which he's not, but he should. Oh, yeah. Happy birthday, Jack. Yeah, happy birthday, Jack.
    39:33
    And Kelly, see you next time. Your next game coming out, as always. Absolutely. Yeah, I have to say, every time you get the overdrive saved with the post on Foodfighter, I smile. Because I'm just like, it's so simple, and it's so satisfying. It's just like, this is the cool... How did somebody not think of this before? It's completely cool.
    39:58
    Yes. Yeah. Like you said, it's those moments. That's what keeps me playing, and that's why I look forward to the next game. It's like, ooh, what kind of cool thing are they going to throw in here that's going to make me want to come back and play it over and over again? And so far they've delivered. Stern has really done a good job with that. And let's not forget the other companies, Jersey Jack and with what is it? Godfather. How the machine guns shoot off on the topper. That's sick.
    40:29
    Sounds like you actually have a gun war going off the side of your game room. Yeah, it's really I feel like that was almost what JJP was setting out to do. Like, when they originally got into it, like, I think that Jack looked at pinball and said, you know, it's, you know, the games are competent. They're there. They're shooting, but they're not magic.
    40:52
    And for a while, you know, he was really, you know, going absolutely nuts just trying to throw everything but the kitchen sink in the games. so there would always be a cool, interactive, enchanting sort of moment where I think that he's actually, or Jersey Jackets, the company's actually kind of dialed back. They've kind of said, hey, we need to make games that shoot a little bit better.
    41:17
    They don't have magic, but they need to shoot a little bit better. I think Stern's kind of, you know, hopefully wisely going the other way where they're working the magic in and bringing the background. That's why I feel like maybe they kind of failed because everybody wanted to eat the goddamn ball.
    41:35
    But do you think, though, do you think, though, the Jersey Jack, just by nature of them going into business and coming out with some of these machines, when you look at, say, was it Hobbit that has a stuff that pops out of the play field, things like that, that Stern said, we've got to step up and do more? you know do you think Stern would have done all these crazy things before Jersey Jack? I don't think so no competition was huge it wasn't just that it was who was that podcast with? it was really really good oh it was the one with DeMar where Larry which was still the best podcast I've ever heard where Larry basically said look Jersey Jack hey saved pinball because they showed Stern that you didn't have to sell games for $3,000.
    42:26
    You know, and they said, if you make, if you make, oh yeah, well, like there was, and I was, I looked at it and I was just like, you know, everybody like curses JJP and then Stern and then, you know, all the companies for moving that price is up. But, you know, we were about to have no pinball. And then thanks to the fact that now they know that there are maniacs out there who will spend $7,000, $8,000, $9,000, $10,000 plus on a game.
    42:54
    I don't know if any of us have ever spent $10,000 plus on a game, but I've gone to the bleeding edge.
    43:02
    I'll admit, I took the plunge and I got an LE. For a Jaws? Foo Fighters. Oh, Foo Fighters. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, it's just one of those. Yeah, the Foo Fighter LE is gorgeous too. Yeah. It really is just one of those things that made pinball, you know, viable again because there was money in it. Right. Yeah, think about the games that they had before JJP came out onto the scene with the, you know. I mean, of course, I can't think of the name of it now. There were games before JJP came around. Yeah, but who the hell was going to be going to seek out an Austin Powers? Well, that was way before JJP. I mean, you know, you had... I know. That was Iron Man. I had innovative stuff. Oh, it's knocked on that. But, yeah. What was the year that Wheel of Fortune came out? Yeah, that has to be somewhere around the same time as Iron Man. How was this not Wheel of Fortune? Oh, I'm sorry.
    44:04
    Wizard of Oz. Yeah. So, it looks like mid-2000, something like that? April 2013. Okay. Yeah. 2013. Really? Yeah. Boy, it's come a long way in such a short time when you think about it. Yeah, they have. Dang. But still, you remember the first time you saw Wizard of Oz, though, and you looked at it and go, wow, look at all this interactive stuff going on. I mean, just look at my mind. ACDC came out in 2012. Yeah, that's right. But ACDC is a great game. Now, obviously, by the time they made a game like ACDC, they knew what Jersey Jack was doing. Yeah, right. So they had to step up their game. They absolutely had to step up their game. NACDC, I think, is kind of the game that people look at as stern turning the corner from making kind of, you know, Wheel of Fortune-ish games and Family Guy and stuff like that. Monopoly.
    44:56
    And re-moving in the right direction where, you know, they were going to make awesome games that, you know, had great themes and had good art, although I still think the play-through on NACDC is crazy ugly. No, it's terrible. Yeah, especially the pro. The pro is hideous. The pro is awful.
    45:15
    It's hideous. Well, they redid the pro, the LED pro. You want to redone one with Angus, like, jumping instead of the weird face with the devil outline? It's still not great. You know, the problem with that play show, and I've got my ACDC sitting right behind me, so I'm not pissing on a game that I don't own, is that, like, the arrangement of the inserts is just really bad. they're all sort of blocky. It's like 24.
    45:44
    Oh yeah, 24. A lot of Photoshop, band art. At least on the Lucy they added some hoochies into it. Yeah, right. And 24 isn't. 24 has some of the worst artwork of any game ever made, but I love it. It shoots great. I've always enjoyed playing it. I'd love to find one because they're so rare. That and CSI from the Pat Waller design. Right.
    46:11
    If we're speaking art, that has a lot to do with the experience, too. Sure. We've talked at length about how important art's become.
    46:20
    Yep. It's hard to buy an ugly game. Yeah, it is, for sure. And obviously all the companies know that, aside from a couple that still need to work on it. But, yeah. Wait, wait, wait. Who needs to work on it? Who's making ugly games?
    46:36
    Hmm. I don't know. Spencer, you know what that one's called again? I'm wondering what you're talking about.
    46:42
    Yeah, me too. Ninja Clips? Oh, yeah. Ninja Clips. Ninja Clips isn't a game. That's not the better word. Ninja Clips is like a game. I can't wait to see these guys fall on their face again and tax this in March. That's why I brought it up. I apologize. I'm sorry. Give me a round up. We need to stop picking on poor Ninja Clips. It's crying. Yeah, yeah.
    47:03
    I heard they're pulling it back. They're going to put it in a normal cabinet. Yeah. You can charge $12 for it. If they charge $12 for it, I'll buy one. If they brought out Ninja Eclipse and it was a full-size arcade-grade pinball machine and it was like $3,000, so many people would give it a chance. Sure. Absolutely. They should do that. If somebody came out with the world's worst theme, but it was like a brand,
    47:35
    people would give it a shot. They would be like, what do I got to lose, right? But if it was $3,000, like, any pinball person who's ever bought a game would be like, I'll spend $3,000 just to get something new in box.
    47:47
    If you're feeling really, really just jonesing to throw money away, I mean, the shittiest game ever made, there's a – I just thought – It is on Facebook's marketplace. Let me go. There's a – Candy Pack Man? No, no, no. That's just like a massive step up. It's a – what's the really fucking bad one? Thunderbirds? Thunderbirds. There's a Thunderbirds. I knew it. Yeah. For 4K. It's like, dude, I'll give you $12 if you just light it on fire and send me a picture, you know.
    48:21
    Look, I've never played Thunderbirds, so I really want to see how bad it is. But I can't believe that it's, like, so bad that I'd rather not be playing pinball. let's just put it this way if they keep the buttons the way they were originally you touch the buttons and that's the first thing you'll do is like this game sucks like sharp edged button it hurts your fingers I'm not joking I tried it at Pinberg over and I was like this to make you feel alive yeah oh yeah that's like a number one thing that's going to ruin an experience. Like, if you touch the game and it feels cheap, like, a lot of times I'll play, like, a stern after playing, like, especially if you move them, but like, I'll play a stern after playing like one of my JJPs or something. I'll just be like, wow, this thing feels flimsy. Like, it feels like you can flex the cabinet.
    49:21
    Yeah, that's true. Like, you could, like, you could, it's kind of like you're steering it. Like, you could wheel, like, you'll push against the cabinet and you can feel the movement. It's insane. And that's not to say at the beginning, it feels bad. It just doesn't have that perception. It feels different.
    49:37
    When you're moving it, you really appreciate it. When we took Transformers over to Mike's house for League a couple few weeks ago, and we went to lift it up in his truck, and it was just so much lighter than I thought it was going to be. I was like, oh yeah, I forgot this is a Stern Pro.
    49:57
    But I think that they've I think they've actually stepped up their cabinet game. Because I can tell you on Foo Fighters, the cabinet looks like it's a lot better material than, say, like Metallica. Because Metallica is kind of light. But Foo Fighters, even the base wood panel on the bottom where the speaker is, is like thick plywood where it used to be just like that Luan board shit on Williams stuff. Yeah. And it's a solid piece of plywood now. So I think they've been trying to address that. It also has the good brackets in it. So, you know, you can buy those brackets from Marco or whatever. Yeah, the full corner brackets. Yes, yes. So, at least on Foo Fighters, it has that bracket in the cabinet, where on, say, Metallica, it does not. It has the older, you know, just little thin-stamped steel thing. But the newer one has the heavy brackets. I think they've been trying to improve their quality on the cabinet because it definitely has a different feel from Metallica, even though I know there's like a 10 year difference between those two machines the cabinet itself the quality is way better do you have a wood back box Metallica or do you have a metal back box Metallica I have a wood back box Metallica I have a metal back box and I will say it feels a lot less cheap than Transformers which is also a wood back box game we came first they started doing the metal ones the wood one was just the kind of traditional stern back box And then, yeah, the metal ones came out like right towards the end of the MD, probably like WWF or something.
    51:35
    Or WWF. My metallic is like a 2013, I think. And, yeah, like I was saying, it's a wood back box. And I think mine's like a 2018, like a pro LED.
    51:46
    Yeah. So talking about experience, when before, before, I can't say Jetsons, but it's Thunderbirds. Before Thunderbirds ever came out, they were just showing some real pre-production stuff. And they showed a little video of the ball mechanism where it was like an elevator where like one of the spaceships would come out of the ground from the show. I remember that as a little kid going, oh, that's really cool. And then the ball comes out and then it rolls down a habitable. I'm like, that's really cool. But then, and I haven't played Thunderburst, but then, you know, the general consensus is it's an absolute dog turn. And I go again to experiences. The Shadow with the magnet and the, not the sanctuary. The Balak. The Balak, right? The Balak, yeah. Yeah, the sanctum. Thank you. Sanctum. Sanctum, yep. Okay, that never gets old now. Oh, no, that's for me. That's fantastic. You know? Yeah, and it's just a simple thing, you know? But, yeah.
    52:47
    Yeah, and it's not even arguably the big toy in the game. The big toy in the game is the battleground. Right. But the experience is, yeah, when you hit that thing and it stops and jump, jump, and the ball falls down and the ball flies up there just on its own. That's cool. I love that. Right. How he did that. I mean, is it two magnets? Is that how he did it? He just puts it the right way and it just falls right up the right way. That's so cool. Well, you know, and then Eric also brought up when we all got together that time, it's a pizza place, and it was just before COVID hit, and strangers had just come out. I got Seth to come out because he's a huge Stranger Things fan.
    53:27
    And Seth's always my middle friend. He's kind of the quiet one, and, you know, he's like the antithesis of Mickey. And I was like, no, come on, Stranger Things. He goes, no, I'll do it. That sounds fun. And then we were having a good time. Like the ball kicked me in. And this was a general location two days, you know. It was brand new.
    53:45
    It was brand new. It just got out of the box. Just out of the box. And, like, it just keeps – it gets in the subway and it keeps jamming. Yeah, ball balls are running off full time. And so you were talking about the experience. And, like, Brian bought his boys out. We were all having those great fries. Yeah. And pizza. We were just all having a really good time. and remind me of the old days of a Friday night out at the pizza place playing pinball, having food, and that part was great.
    54:15
    But it was like the game was being a butthead, and that's what really – Well, until the post came out. Until the post came out. On Kendra. It literally shot out. That would be shot right out. It's laying on the ramp. And Kendra's like, I don't know what's wrong. And I look at her, and I'm like, I don't know. And I look at her, and I was like, oh, sweetie, look, the post is laying on your ramp. You broke it. She's like, shit.
    54:38
    That's not exactly what I'm talking about, but obviously, yeah, quality, you know, we've kind of gone down the quality road, which I feel like we go down a lot. But, yeah, the quality is obviously a big part of the experience. It's just more about the gameplay versus, you know, the theatricality of it.
    54:56
    But, yeah, I just, you know, God, that was the best worst night. It was. It's interesting you guys say that. This one specific game was like, fuck all we got. They had Jurassic Park. They had Deadpool. What else did they have? They had Jurassic Park, Deadpool, and I think Iron Maiden. They had really good French fries and halfway decent pizza. Okay, what were those fries that were like? Garlic fries or something.
    55:28
    Garlic fries and Greek fries. Yeah, the Thai fries. The Greek fries. These were Thai. These were like Thai sesame fries or something. And then they had the garlic fries. Both were really good.
    55:42
    What was that place again? Vito's. Yep, that's right. It's down on 15th, right? R Street. Like, yeah, R and 5. I remember we're at like $15. Are they still there?
    56:01
    Yeah. I don't know, man. We've lost a lot of restaurants downtown. Yeah. I don't know if they still have games in that particular place, but they're still there. So it's interesting you guys say this about, you know, reliability, and I think that's the tricky part with manufacturers is, like, where is the balance? Like, you want all the magic, but then at the same time, it's like, well, how many mechs can you put in a game that can be reliable enough that it doesn't break down all the time? I always wonder, like, how do they make those decisions, right?
    56:32
    So, yeah. Yeah, that actually, I jokingly referenced Twilight Zone, but the only reason I got my Twilight Zone was because the operator wouldn put it on route because it was always breaking Well you know the thing with Twilight Zone historically was that there are a lot of nice condition Twilight Zones out there because they never worked
    56:54
    And the problem with Twilight Zone isn't the mechanics. It's that the boards, the WPC boards for that generation of game couldn't keep up with as much game as Twilight Zone is. I would agree. and it's 12 volts. My game right now needs its 12 volts rebuilt.
    57:15
    Yeah, mine just went down again. I think the slot machine kicker, either the coil went out or something mechanically broke because it won't launch out of there. But before that, I had a bad opto board. I've had the diverter ramp wire that goes down to the solenoid. I've had that break. I've had all sorts of weird things happen on Twilight Zone. But the slot machine just gets beat to shit. And there's not a whole lot you can do about it because it's just going to get beat to shit because of where it is on the play field. I feel almost bad saying this, but, like, my Twilight Zone, I've had it since, like, 2016.
    57:54
    And it's almost never given me trouble. And the times that it has given me trouble, it's almost a thing that you're sort of like, I guess I could understand that breaking. the one really like standard sort of issue that my Twilight Zone's given me is the Eddie sensor near the trough where you have to go ahead and plug it in besides that game's been pretty bulletproof for a Twilight Zone yeah you're lucky I'm not trying to dance on your grave or nothing I'm just like man you know I feel bad saying it my Twilight Zone's been pretty stable Yeah, I don't know if the one I had had some other problems too But I've had mine since about 2004 And right now I've got a bad trip in the soundboard So the sound's all wonky Like I said, the opto board went out I also used to have a problem where the far upper right There's a blue flasher that only goes off when you defeat the power And every once in a while it would blow that transistor And other than that, I think it only blinks when – I don't even think it blinks in attract mode. But it was obvious that that transistor had been changed a bunch of times. So I changed the driver transistor to some other stuff. And I had to do a board repair on that because it had blown the trace off the board. Oh, boy. You know what? Check your ribbon. You know, when you're seeing stuff like that happens, don't look past your ribbon cables. We were working on Dan's Indiana Jones the other day, and he was having all kinds of problems with his lighting. And, I mean, we were checking connectors and reseating ribbon cables and this, that, the next thing. And we talked to Brian, friend of the show Brian, we talked to friend of the show Cheddar, and they both zeroed in on that big fat ribbon cable in between the PDB and the CPU. and we finally pulled that one out and we replaced it, ironically enough, with the one from my Twilight Zone and it fixed all the problems. And we're like, oh, well, that was interesting. I mean, we had reseated and flipped it over and deoxited and just did – I mean, it was just that. Like that ribbon table. Yeah, ribbon table. So every once in a while, yeah, I check that big table, but – A lot of times, you know, especially just those WPC ribbon tables. But, you know, just to kind of sum up on the experience thing, you know, it's not saying that anybody's wrong or anybody's right. I just think it's really, really interesting to see that I think that with a lot of the new games out there, you see the magic of pinball kind of coming back, you know. Shots are great.
    60:43
    I love a good face-melting shooter. I know that Mark appreciates a good face-melting shooter, you know. I think Spencer appreciates a great face melt and shooter you know Eric hates games that melt faces yeah great with this I just thought it was an interesting thing you know and I was wondering how you guys felt about it so thanks for sharing your opinions and a Jaws review Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Because I finally played it, so I had to mention it. There's a new game coming out that looks like it's going to have a quality experience. Does anybody in this group, are you guys stupid enough to own a P3?
    61:35
    Just you, Dan. Oh, I do. That's because I have more money, no, than sense. So tell us, Spencer, what's coming up for the P3? Princess Bride. Inconceivable! Ooh. Inconceivable. As you wish. I had to do it.
    62:02
    It's so funny because I've been hearing rumors. We've all been hearing rumors about this. You know, we're seeing somebody's doing Princess Bride. Is it P3? Is it this? Is it that? You know? And I thought, yeah, it's a great movie, but is it going to translate well? And then I saw the video, and I went, holy shit.
    62:20
    Wow. People love that freaking movie. They do. People love that movie. It's a great family film. You don't know. Even the actors that were in the movie loved the movie. They'll still talk about it. Like, they talked to Mandy Patankin, and he's like, I love doing that movie. I love when people talk to me about it. I'm like, how cool is that, man? Yeah. I still remember. And that movie was, what, 35 years ago or something? I don't know. A long time ago. It was the late 80s, right? It was like, what, 89?
    62:52
    Something like that. But, I mean, it's still a movie like Spencer was saying. You can watch it with your kids. Wow. So it's 37 years ago. I remember we watched that movie in my history class in seventh grade. Oh, wow. It has nothing to do with history, but, like, the teacher's like, yo, we're going to watch a movie today, and he put it on.
    63:18
    And what does that have to do with anything that you would learn in school? I don't know, but it was awesome.
    63:25
    It was literature. There you go. You guys are all about my age. Did you guys all have to watch Stand of the Lever in school, like, every single year? Yep. I didn't have to watch it in school, but I did watch it. Yeah, or To Kill a Mockingbird. I watched that one all the time. I saw that.
    63:42
    To Kill a Mockingbird, great film. Yeah, great. Where you have to shoot to learn Capulas. Yeah. It's your man.
    63:52
    Complete left turn here for a second. Yeah. Do any of you guys know the character? Oh, God damn it. I'm thinking of the little boy. Scout's little friend.
    64:04
    In what movie? To Kill a Mockingbird. No, Boo Radley's not. No, not Boo Radley. Oh, man. You know there's an app for that.
    64:13
    I can't remember. There is. There's an app for that. Okay. That was supposed to be Truman Capote as a little boy. I had heard somewhere.
    64:24
    Huh. I don't know if that's true. I think that was the year I was cutting a lot of class in high school.
    64:32
    I don't think I saw that. Smoking dope and riding up and down the list. Pretty much. so here's the thing it it's interesting you say that i was hearing you eric talk about uh your kids enjoyed it right so i was i took a day off i wasn't feeling my and it was kind of funny it's one of those moments where i was sick and so was my daughter so we both stayed home and i remember saying uh one of my friends doug he's saying you got to watch princess bride you guys are both sick, play it and see what she thinks of it. Yeah. And my daughter loved it. Yeah. And I thought for sure she's going to think, oh, this is so corny. It's so 80s. And she loved it. Yeah.
    65:13
    There's just something about that movie that it's innocent enough that kids can get into it. And there's enough innuendo and inside joke stuff that adults like it too. Right. And there's enough dark humor in it, you know.
    65:28
    He's only mostly dead. You know, that kind of stuff. Yep, yep. The movie is magic. It really is. And what's neat about it is it will appeal to all people. I mean, it's finally... I mean, I don't want to sound, you know, sexist or anything, but it definitely will now appeal to the women, you know, for that kind of theme, too. It's literally my why I write every movie. it's a perfect theme just like Labyrinth have fun storming the castle we used to say that when we were leaving work for the day you'd talk to somebody and go blah blah blah I'm out of here have fun storming the castle bye and what a perfect movie to have those one liners as part of the cause I'm not kidding you know they parodied that with Once Upon a Deadpool.
    66:28
    Yeah. If you guys haven't seen that. I have not seen that. Oh, they did? Yes, they did a PG version of Deadpool 2. Oh, no way I have seen that. Oh, wow.
    66:39
    And then they put Fred Savage in it where Deadpool kidnaps him and is kind of tied up in a bed just reading the story. So they take out all the four-letter words and all the violence and they make it so they can put it back in the theater is a family film.
    66:56
    Yeah. And totally parody and Princess Bride. You know what other movie they did that with? Saturday Night Fever. They did. They did a PG version. I remember that. If you haven't watched Saturday Night Fever lately, that's a screwed up movie.
    67:15
    Oh, yeah. Yeah, it is. I was like, oh my god. It doesn't depict some people in a very nice and light. It is definitely not what I thought it was going to be. I'm like, oh, this is the famous disco movie. Oh, my God. It was dirty disco. Of course, it was so popular and kids wanted to see it. They went and they made like a PG cut of it. So, yeah.
    67:46
    We just super side-round. No, I do. You know, Spencer kind of brought it up. Like, Spencer and I were talking about it when they announced it, or when the big – I think it was still just a rumor.
    67:58
    And I was just like, it was going to happen as a game, but we didn't know if it was going to be P3 or not.
    68:05
    And I was just like, how in the blue hell are they going to make a Princess Bride game? Oh, my God. What are they going to do?
    68:15
    There's so much they could do. And then they did that announcement. I couldn't picture it. Like, maybe you have an image in your head, but I was just like, there's cliffs, there's an ocean, there's a boat, there's a swamp, there's a castle. Like, what the crap are they going to do? And when they finally showed the trailer, I was like, this looks brilliant. Like, how the hell did they do that? With a third of a play field, they packed that much shit into it? How did they do that? They did a whole play field. And I'm tired of this. This is that new thing. And I know fucking Don brought it up. but I know Don listens. I was calling out online, too.
    68:53
    Like, P3 is cool. You get a whole play field, just the bottom part of it is a television screen. So it can be whatever it has to be. And it has targets. You know, it does exist. It's not half of a game. It's not a third of a game. It's a whole game. It's got slingshots. It's got kickers. It's got everything. But it's a module. The module itself, which is the part that's physical, you know, that they're not just going to, you know, put the graphics on, you know, looks really heavy duty.
    69:26
    Yeah, it does. I'm dying to know how that cliff mechanism thing works. You're right. Like, does it gradually go up as you get through the mode? It's got to be magnetic. Like, it didn't have, like, a little lift or anything. It's got to be something cool if it's called the Cliffs of Infinity. The Cliffs of Infinity! Yeah, that's right. Yeah, like pinball magic. Exactly. That's what I'm kind of envisioning.
    69:52
    Do they have the rodents of unusual size? They've got to, right? Like maybe you're going to hunt them down on the lower play field. Oh, yeah, like have huge rodents on there. We can live here happily for some time.
    70:04
    That's true. See, I mean, just with the four of us, all these one-liners in that movie, I mean, there's just so much you can do. Oh, yeah. Okay, now here's the question. And they have all assets. They have all assets, right? Yeah, they got everything. They have all assets. Wow. And that's going to be killer. Yeah. And they can do so much with that. You're not that it's a P3. I'm not. Because they can do really cool things with the video assets and maybe incorporate it into the gameplay on the screen that's in the play field. Can't anybody spend an honest thing for being a P3 module? Why? Because they don't have a P3 and they don't want to buy a P3. And being a P3 owner, I almost can't blame them because it's expensive and really, really heavy. But it's not that expensive. Like the basic P3 costs, I think, a little bit less than a Stern Premium. Okay. So how about this then? If we're circling back to the whole thing where we talk about experience, why would you care if it's a P3 if the experience is there? Right? Right. It's like who gives a shit who makes it? As long as it plays good and it's a great experience, I don't care if it's a CERN or if it's a JGP or it's a P3 or even, you know, say, Haggis or something or Highway or whatever the fuck it is. As long as it's a good game and it's a good experience, that's the deal. Have you been by to spend any time on my P3, Eric? No, I have not. So being the P3 owner, I will tell you that the experience of owning a P3 is very interesting. because the P3 itself is cool.
    71:43
    It's really neat. You know what? I'm going to – I'll put it in a language I know Eric will understand, and, you know, I know Mark probably will get and Spencer probably will get. It's a lot like owning a classic car.
    71:54
    Oh, okay. Okay. It's definitely got its own way of working. Nothing works the way that you think it's supposed to work. and it's got its own little idiosyncrasies and it's not as easy as you think it should be. And I think that's what a lot of the pinball people, like the reason that I got my P3 from the person who I got it from was because they owned it for a few months and just were not enjoying, you know, they liked the game, they liked Weird Al, but they didn't like the process of swapping modules, they didn't like the process, you know, of the way that the menus work, They didn't like the fact that the thing is just heavy as shit. Like the play field on that thing is like five play fields worth of play field. It's a beast.
    72:41
    So, I mean, I get people who are just sort of like, you know, but they put their money where their mouth is. They bought one and then said, oh, we don't like it. You know, you like it. We'll sell it to you.
    72:50
    So I can kind of understand why maybe people wouldn't be ecstatic that they have to adopt this platform. But, you know, I just don't think that it's as bad as everybody wants to make it out to be. And I think that if people, you know, if people give it a chance, and I know that's hard to say since someone gave it a chance and didn't like it, that's why I bought mine, but I think it's really, really cool. Like, it's definitely real, honest-to-God pinball, and it definitely has all the shots and all the flippers and the best sound that you've ever heard in a pinball machine. Like, it's really heavy-duty.
    73:24
    Yeah, and what's cool, too, is there, I mean, I know there's, obviously a lot of wait time to get those new modules. I know, I'm sure you're getting very anxious, Dan, for the final resistance to come. I'm waiting for the road any day now. But from the news that I heard with that long letter, that email that he sent out to all the owners, how he's giving you all those parts to replace with no cost, that's pretty cool. Wow. To be able to do that. I haven't heard anything about that either. You ever heard anything about that? Oh, there's a whole bunch of stuff. Okay, okay. Did you read the letter on what things that he's including to replace? Yeah, I sent it to you. Okay.
    74:11
    Oh, yeah, that's right. You did. Yeah, okay. So did you get that stuff yet? Did they send it or not? No.
    74:24
    Okay, now I see what you're saying. Got it. I'm also a second owner I am a registered second owner but I didn't buy it brand new and you know I'm just more as far as the P3 experience goes as it's like you know yeah it's not like you're going to set that thing on the floor and just start playing it right like you just said they're going to send you parts so that you can upgrade things you're going to you know you could add modules to it you know like if you bought like my P3 for when it came out is pretty complete and was as up-to-date as it could be at the moment. But if you had bought the Weird Al module, you needed to buy additional parts to add to P3 to make it ready for the Weird Al module, because the Weird Al module was, I think, the first four-flipper game. Four-flipper game. So you needed to add the four-flipper. I think that they had had the third one had already been added for Heist.
    75:21
    So, you know. Okay. And I think that a lot of pin owners, going kind of back to our, hey, who's going to really install this mod?
    75:29
    You know, P3 is for the person who's going to install that mod. Yeah, that's true. And Princess Bride might play kind of casual for a P3 owner. Yeah, don't know. I wish you were. The thing that would be really cool is if I did own a P3, because then you could just swap modules and say, hey, can I borrow your, I mean, you still have to buy the software, right? As far as I know, you don't need to buy the basic software. So, like, if you buy the module, or I guess even if you borrow the module, you get the game with it. The game goes with the module. So, like, if I said, yeah, go ahead and take my heist, you know, you could pair heist to your machine, which does require some manual adjustment, drop heist in, download the heist game, and play it. But if you wanted to play any of the third-party games that use the Heist module, you buy them. That's when you buy them. That would make sense. I mean, that's cool that he doesn't lock it down. So, you know, it's like, you know, old men trading, you know, Atari cartridges, but instead they're, you know, trading $3,000 modules. That's why I need somebody else in the group to buy it. I know. Someone should buy Princess Bride so that, you know, we can start swapping modules around. Exactly. That's why the problem is I don't want to take Weird Al apart. Yeah, no. And that's a good game, too. That's a good game. So let me ask this. A few years back at Pentagogo, there was an Archer prototype. Was that on a P3 platform? No.
    77:08
    No. Okay. So P3 is the pinball machine, and it uses P-Rock. which are the borns. A lot of pinball machines use P-Rock. And Multimorphic is the company that makes all of that.
    77:28
    Okay. I couldn't remember what that was on. I know that was a – because didn't – did Elwin do that game? Yeah.
    77:38
    I actually talked to him when he was there. Yeah, I did too. I think he did when I got the computer.
    77:45
    Yeah, I know. Me too. Oh, yeah, the guy who made this game. So it was either Elwin, it was either Keith Elwin or Keith Elwin's brother. And he was like, yeah. And I'm like, wow, this is really good, man. You probably have a career or you probably have a future in pinball. I'm probably super condescending.
    78:02
    And that was the thing too. I thought I was the best pinball player on the planet. You know, now he's the most famous pinball designer going.
    78:10
    But that was the other thing. He was talking to him. He was so low key about it. He would have never guessed. we're just talking, man this is great you got all this stuff and blah blah blah and me and a couple friends of mine were just talking to them and then later it's like Keith Elllin works for Stern, I'm like what? yeah I bet he had a P-Rock board in his home brew, I bet he did yeah I bet he did maybe that's what I'm thinking about it could have been fast, like there's other platforms or it could have been something totally custom like but P-Rock is what really opened P-Rock and I think it's called Fast are what really opened the door to these people who are making their own pinball machines and a lot of production games like the American pinball games use P-Rock right so I have a theory on this when we're talking about why there's so many people upset and I don't want to get too into it because I have a whole show written just for this topic and I want to have a route operator on and I've got a couple of people in mind I want to get on the show and we can talk about it in depth. Okay. Nobody wants you to reinvent the wheel.
    79:24
    Okay. The flippers are different. How many times have people tried to say, well, it's modular. Okay. Pinball 2000. You can just pop one out and put another game back in. On the surface, everything looks like a great idea. This should be great for route operators. This should be great for the home. Nobody wants it. People want a traditional pinball machine. They want, okay, just if you want to be successful in a pinball design, just redo every standard fan layout from Terminator 2 forward, okay? Just copy Steve Ritchie, put a back toy at the middle, put lots of cool lights and music in it, boom, you got a hit. Seriously. Yeah. That's what people want. I mean, and that's the thing with lights. And they want to be something cool. and they want to do something cool. The P3 platform, I like it for what it's worth, but it scares the hell out of me because talking with Dan and other people, you know, Jerry's like the Elon Musk of pinball technology is kind of, and he knows this stuff. It's like, dude, you've got to slow down, okay? You're asking me to build a nuclear reactor. I can't fix a flat tire on my kid's bike. I actually can, but he gives you an idea, you know. Well, yeah, you think about Galactic Tank Force. You talk to, you know, is it Joe that's in Lodi League now? Was saying that they pulled that thing out of their location.
    80:52
    Somebody pulled it out of the location because it kept breaking too much. You know, and then if it doesn't use, like I can see what you're saying. If a route operator has a lot of Cern and Williams games, is he going to put a Jersey Jack in there? Is he going to put a P3 in there? Probably not. No. Because it's another kind or another rack of parts he's got to carry around to fix it. You know, oh, the flipper pawl isn't the same on this P3 as it is on a Stern or a Williams. No, it's not the same on a Williams or on a Stern or on a Bally or on a JGD. You know, a different game is going to use different parts. The problem with P3s being on location is that most of the fancy modules use a lot of servos. on the trough on the P3, which will hold 100 balls.
    81:44
    How many it holds? Like HyperBall? Okay, here's a question. How many balls do you get with the P3? I think that based on the module, I think that without you install 15. So do the balls come with your module? I assume so.
    82:01
    Okay. That never came to my mind, but yeah, that is crazy that you can have that many. Top of the game, not the bottom. Yeah, it's kind of in the middle. Because, yeah, there's no shooter lane. It just has all the spaces up through the module.
    82:14
    But it is, you know, because both of the guys I know who have routes and have operated their P3s have just said, oh, yeah, they're just not reliable enough, you know, for the – No, they're not. Press start is probably the most friendly, like, maintained arcade that there is. and, you know, Weird Al couldn't hack being on location there. And my garage works great.
    82:44
    But, yeah, you know, when the game's on location, you know, it's being asked to do different things.
    82:51
    Forgive me for asking, is Press Start in Auburn or is that the one in Reno? That's the one in Reno. That's like Mark's home arcade.
    82:59
    Yeah. We've got to make a road trip up there. Oh, yeah, for sure. Absolutely, and definitely come to the private locations too, for sure. Nice. Yeah, I'll definitely take you around for sure. But I think that's part of what is people got people off their arms because they love the theme. Just like we're wearing out, they love the theme and go, damn it. That's a dream theme for me, but I don't want to invest in the P3 because it's just too weird. They want the game.
    83:30
    They want the game. They don't want the different. They want a traditional. Okay, the original Alien Highway. A lot of people just went, yeah, because it was too different. They want a traditional pinball game. They don't want a wide body. They want Terminator 2. Boom, done. You know what I'm saying? I don't know if it was that as much as you just really couldn't get a highway. Well, but no, the standard pinball cabinet. And even American Pinball took some heat because their head was a little different. Their cabinet was a little different. That's not really what we're talking about here, though. No, but there are people out there that that's true. They want Valley Williams, period. That's what they really want. With a multi-morphic, right? Like if you wanted the Princess Bride and you bought the Princess Bride, the collector's edition, which is the game and the module and everything, and you put it together and you set it down on the floor,
    84:24
    and you set it to start Princess Bride when you start the game, It's just going to work like it was a dedicated Princess Bride machine. But you know you have all this additional hardware sitting there for swapability.
    84:39
    Right. Right? And I think that, you know, a lot of folks, they just can't deal with that. Like, if you're going to buy something that you can swap games, you've got to buy more than one game. I bought my P3 for one game, and I have two games. Yep.
    84:55
    And pretty soon you'll have more. Who knows? If I don't get the situation resolved with my final resistance, I certainly not going to be running out to buy a Princess Bride but I don blame you You should get Heist I love that game Well we have to swap it in someday Well we will It a really cool platform
    85:17
    but the thing that kills me is when, like, don't get me wrong, I understand when the super casuals, the people who we're talking about now, like, they're just sort of like, I don't want to, like, embrace this platform. I don't get why the hardcore pinheads won't give it a chance.
    85:32
    Yeah, that seems weird to me. It's not new, you know. P3 is 10 years old. The technology works. It's reliable.
    85:41
    Yeah, it's different. It's not like a... I mean, and, you know, keep in mind how many people bitch about the difference in Stern flippers versus JJP flippers. It's like, I own them both. I haven't done any mods. They're all fine. They move the ball. I have Williams games. They move the ball. Like, but people insist, oh, man, if it doesn't have that snappy, you know, cheap stern feel, or if it doesn't have like that classic Valley Williams feel, like it's just terrible. And, you know, the flippers on the P3 are their own thing.
    86:15
    Yeah. It's just something you have to get used to. You have to be ready for it. Yeah. The one guy in our league that has so many Gottlieb machines at his house, they have a completely different feel than anything else. Oh, yeah. Gottlieb flippers are definitely their own world, right? But it doesn't, like, ruin the game. It's just you know, it's like, it's different. It's different. Yeah. You accept it, you know, and play it the way it is. It's like driving a German car versus driving an American car versus driving a Japanese car. They all do the same thing the same way, but they have their own personality.
    86:51
    Yeah. So, yeah, you know, just, I'm excited about Princess Bride, you know. The unfortunate truth is I don't know anyone who's going to buy it besides me, so that's probably the only way I'll ever get to play it if I don't see it at the show.
    87:05
    So, you know, here's hoping. That'd be sweet if they had one at Golden State. You know, they're going to. They might. They bring that P3 once in a while. That's true. They had it at Golden. They had the final resistance there, and I was surprised. Unfortunately, it didn't work as well as it should have. It's Ace Gogey that brings it, right? Yeah. It's Ace Gogey. Wow, those guys drive up from L.A. to bring that stuff? Yeah He's the one who bought Weird Al Yep He sold Jeff Legends of Valhalla Which Dan and I were playing Shane, Shane He's a cool dude Yeah I hope he brings one up again There's a lot of good games out now We're coming out to, I hope, make Golden State Like Pulp Fiction because it's finally shipping.
    88:05
    That's what I heard. That's right. Pulp Fiction is shipping finally. It's just the standard edition, right?
    88:12
    I guess. Has anybody played one? No. I have not gotten to play one yet. I know we got three coming to Reno that I'm aware of. Two on location. We've got like four or five coming. We've got two or three league members are in on it for sure. And one is, what is another possible?
    88:35
    So, yeah, we're going to be spoiled for the games. The only people I know who have played it so far, I know Rick played it and was not impressed. He did not like it at all. He didn't like it? No. Really? He did not say kind things. He said worse things about that than I said about, was it Ninja Eclipse? No. No, no, no. I'm kidding. Probably worse things than he said about, no, probably not worse things he said about Stranger Things either.
    89:09
    Yeah, pretty much nobody says worse things about all the youth events. I know Scott played it, and he really liked it. He's getting one, so he's excited. Yeah. And I think Shannon might have played it And I think Shannon's still in on one I don't know, Shannon's kind of been moving Yeah, yeah, Shannon's still getting one Yep I remember that Shannon did say he wasn't going to get a Jaws Yeah, I'm sure he'll get it Probably some people are going to get it Yeah I don't think That's weird I'm waiting for people To get it But I don't know, I think it looks fine I mean, I love the theme.
    89:54
    Play it. Just play it, and you'll see. I don't know. You know, some of those OG, kind of OG, new G games I like. Like, I really like Beatles, but I wasn't impressed too much with Bond, although I liked it a lot better when I played Jason's.
    90:08
    So I'm hoping for good things. And the other thing, too, is if you like the shots on the Bond 60th, it's got that taste of it on Jaws. Man, I still want Beatles I love that game I do too, and they're going down in price Beatles is great I agree with you on that, Dan That is a great, great updated version of Sea Witch, for sure Sea Witch is a terrible game but Beatles rule Beatles just knocks it out of the park You know the weird thing about Sea Witch is and I kind of agree with you, Eric I like Sea Witch but I hate the fact that the fun stuff to shoot on Sea Witch is worth nothing.
    90:54
    On Beetle, they made the fun thing to shoot which is the loop, worthwhile. The loop. The loop, exactly. The repeated loops on that game are more fun than just about anything. But yeah, on Sea Witch, it's just like, yeah, shoot lots of drop targets and die.
    91:10
    And then you have that great jackpot shot behind the drop targets too, which is innovative. That's only on Beetle. That's a cool shot. Oh my gosh, man. Once I figured out that the whole of that game was just several songs and then hit that shot, the entire game became a different experience. A much more stressful experience, mind you, but a different experience.
    91:33
    The shot isn't a John Lennon shot, is it? Sorry, that's terrible. Hey-o! They could put that soundbite in there, but I think it'd be frowned upon.
    91:44
    Yeah. I'll compare these last words when I'm shot. You're a monster. It's been like 44 years ago. Can you believe that? Yeah. Anybody got their Pulp Fiction and wants us to come over and play it, let us know.
    92:05
    Yeah, no kidding. I want to see all the hype. Or Princess Pride. Or Princess Pride, yeah. When you get it, Dan, I'll be there. I'll be at your doorstep when you get it. It's probably going to be a few months. Well, yeah, so I'll give you time to get there. I'll call you. My assistant shows up. There you go. That I want to try. I want to get over to Scott's place and play his Stranger Things since he changed the movie screen material on his. He's changed that weird, what's that stuff that he put on there? It's like better screen material.
    92:38
    Yeah, yeah, so it's supposed to make the images more crisp or something like that? Is there a gray screen? I think so huge difference is it a gray screen like the more like the media screens or is it I couldn't tell you it was something where I think it's like legitimate movie screen material or something like that but it's supposed to be a lot more a better definition of the images that's what it's supposed to be I'd like to see his own theater, man. It's unbelievable.
    93:16
    He's got a nice setup there. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Well, another good part, because, you know, we're just on the back end of winter, so all the shows are coming now. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I got a quick list of just some shows, and I'm only going up through, like, June, okay?
    93:37
    So we'll start off with ZapCon 9 in Mesa, Arizona, and that's an arcade. That's pinball and arcade games. That's March 9th and 10th.
    93:48
    TPF, man, Texas Pinball Festival, March 15th through 17th in Briscoe, Texas. We have the Louisville Arcade Expo, March 29th to 31st, and that's in Louisville, Kentucky. The Midwest Gaming Classic, April 5th through 7th. That's in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. and Pentastic, and that's in Marlboro, Massachusetts, April 11th through 14th.
    94:15
    Our home show, the Golden State Pinball Festival, May 17th through 19th, in beautiful, sunny Lodi, California, which recent announcement, they're bringing back Pinball University. Marco is going to be running that. So look for updates on that. They have both Saturday and Sunday, they're going to have seminars. So don't know what they're going to be yet, but, you know, look for that coming soon.
    94:41
    It looks like they were setting that up in the other building, too, where they have the dinner. It looks like they're going to do the university stuff in there, which is cool. That's where they did it before when they did university. So, yeah. Nice. Pinball University, man. You have Camp Silver Ball. You have Pinball U. You know, matriculate at Pinball University. Get a cool sweatshirt and a beer mug It'll be great I know everybody's going to be Shut up we don't have those Maybe they'll have to have them now They'll have to have them now It's like I'm a trickster Where'd you go Northwest? No man Pinball P.U. Pinball University O.P.U.
    95:23
    As you know that reference That's from an old Looney Tunes Do you know which one? One of my all time favorites And they only did, these characters only did to my knowledge, one cartoon. Oh, the Dover Boys.
    95:39
    Dover Boys. The Dover Boys, Tom, Dick, and Larry. They were trying to rescue their sweetheart, dear sweet Doris Thampy from the evil damn backslide, and they all went to Putnam University, old PU.
    95:54
    Look it up on YouTube. It's a great cartoon. It's freaking hilarious, and it's just one of those one-off crazy loony tunes where, you know, the guys were drinking a lot that Friday or whatever and said, let's do this. And they did. So, okay, so back to the show. So after GSPF May 17th and 19th, Beautiful Sun Glow, that California and Pinball University, OPU, and Camp Silver Ball, we have the Northwest Show in Tacoma, Washington, June 7th through the 9th. Another great show. That is a fantastic show as well. You and Dan have been, and I've never had to prove it. I haven't been there. You've got to go. It's on my list. It's on my bucket list. It always is right before school gets out, so I can never take off those days. Yeah. I think for me, I'm a little too close to GSBF to justify both, but I have in the past when I was closer to Penedo. Yeah, flights are cheap. Yeah, flights are cheap to get up there. Well, we're starting to get a lot more shows in May. So we have the Ohio Pin Fest, April 4th through 6th in Girard, Ohio. We have May 2nd through 4th, the Pin Fest in Allentown, Pennsylvania. The VFW Ann Arbor Show in Michigan, May 4th through 5th. That's Clay Harrell's show.
    97:18
    Oh, nice. Yeah, I've always wanted to go to that one too. And then we have the Quebec Expo, May 25th through 26th. So we've got, and just May alone, we've got GSPF. Northwest. The Allentown show. Well, the Northwest show is June 7th through 9th. But May is fine. That's okay. But it's right after that. So we've got GSPF, Pinfest in Allentown, the VFW show, and the Quebec Expo. So, you know, throughout, you know, North America, we've got four shows just in May. Just in May. Wow.
    97:54
    Oh. So we got some good stuff going on So that's a list of the shows That are coming up that I have so far And then that like I said That just brings us into June And then we still have stuff in September, October And December Even I believe November, December You know I'm excited about show season this year man There's going to be a lot of cool stuff to see Me too Yes Yes. And I think I'm going to Expo. I think I'm going to go to Expo for you. I'm really, really... Okay. You are a quirk spawner. I already revealed it to my wife, so it's pretty much now I just got to go and book a hotel and get flights. Do you know where it's going to be this year? Is it going to be up in Rosemont still? Chicago Expo? It's going to be in the same place in Schaumburg, Illinois. Okay. but they're expanding it by I forgot how many square feet it's going to be a good show and I know Rob has been improving it year after year but he said this is one not to miss it's going to be epic it's going to be a really good show to go to so I'm probably going to go and it's in my close to my hometown only a few hours away no matter what they always have a good vendor area the vendors The vendor experience at that show is always really good. Yes, yes. It's a local, though. You can't, like, bring a bunch of stuff home and you're carrying on. Nope, nope. That's the only drawback. But it's a fun show. Like I said, I went there a couple years ago, and I really enjoyed it. I mean, the free play area was not as good as I expected, but it's improved since then because they've listened to our feedback and are definitely coming more. It couldn't be any worse. Right, exactly. It's changing, right, because it was an industry show, and I think that now the industry is the collectors,
    100:00
    and so it's more collector and enthusiast, or an enthusiast is what I'm looking for. Well, it's the collectors hanging out with the vendors. That's the vibe it is. It's definitely a vendors show, but at the same time, it has that Texas Pinball Festival, Golden State Pinball Festival vibe. And people are really cool and hang out. And the Pinball Olympics, if you get a chance to go to that, you've got to do that. That's the highlight of the trip every time I go. Well, it's the only time I went when I went to go do it, but I definitely want to do it again. That's fun. It's a fun activity and just a great way to hang out with people and just totally cut it loose. It's great.
    100:43
    Yeah. Well, I think that's going to wind up the show, so let's do some, unless you guys got anything. You guys got anything? No, I think we covered what we wanted to cover today. I think we covered everything. Yeah. Great conversation. Yeah. So I'm going to start out with shout-outs and thank-yous.
    100:58
    Mine are just to a couple other shows. One still active, one archived. Still active show. Silver Ball Chronicles. Their latest episode is a Roger Sharp thing. I was trying to listen to it in my work vehicle and I couldn't do it because the sound just wouldn't come up enough. That's not what I'm getting the shout out for. The prior two episodes were a series on Capcom pinball, their first episode. And they did a really nice in-depth on the history of Capcom pinball from when it first started to when they closed their doors. The games they produced, the people they hired, the stories, the Python adventures, you know, the things with Mark Ritchie going on. You know, and the good, the bad, and the ugly of it.
    101:43
    And then the second part was all based on Gene Cunningham, Illinois Pinball, rescuing Big Bang Bar from the jaws of death.
    101:57
    And they did a real nice in-depth on both of those. So for newer people in the hobby that may not know these stories, definitely check this out. So Silver Ball Chronicles, and you can find the two-part series on Capcom Pinball. Definitely worth a listen. Now I'm going to go back into the bag and give a shout-out to Clay Harrell and this old Pinball podcast. Those episodes are all archived. Go back and listen to them.
    102:28
    Clay got everybody in the industry at the time pretty much interviewed, you know, Roger Sharp, Steve Ritchie, all those guys. But he got also I forget the woman's name who did the vocal work On Xenon Right he got Tom Oh god that was not the best case for me It's a great episode He was the marketing guy for Bally for years And he tells a great story His episode His interview is really great He has a really neat insight to the history of pinball And marketing and licensed themes because he's the one who kind of kick-started licensing themes at Bally because he was a huge fan of The Who and the movie Tommy and he got the whole thing, cold ball rolling really by accident.
    103:23
    Like, I don't want to give it away, but really let Tom... I'm killing it. But check out TopCast, this whole pinball. Check out those episodes. You can find it under the Python episode. Listen to this old pinball. What is it called? This old pinball? Podcast This Old Pinball. Yeah. Look it up. They're all archives. Listen, a few real high points are, as Dan said, the Python Angelo episode is epic. That one with the Bally licensing guy, Tom, his last name escapes me. There's many, many good episodes. Lawler. Lawler was great because of the, or he said, you know, With Adam's family, we drove the truck to the edge. With Highline, we just drove it right over. Over the edge, yeah. That one episode is a three-part episode. It's really good. Steve Ritchie, George Gomez, you know, the artists of the day. I mean, hey, he had everybody in the industry on and really worth listening to. So those are my shout-outs. You know, besides maybe DeMar, is anybody better on a podcast than Gomez?
    104:34
    Yeah. He always feels like he just lays it all out, man. It's amazing. Yeah, Gomez brings it, you know. And Gomez makes great games. I'm loving my Bond, and I can't wait until 1.0 comes out. Yeah. But got to give a shout-out to him. Yeah, he's a cool guy. I mean, I talked to him for a couple weeks. He's really cool. Yeah, when I was – I went to Expo in 2022, I think, and they didn't have a Deadpool premium to put out on the floor. He brought his personal game out. Oh, wow. Yeah, and brought it out and put it on the floor. And I talked to him for a moment when I was playing, and he was, like, watching. I was like, what the hell are you doing here? Get the hell away from me.
    105:18
    You can't make a coherent sentence when somebody is looking over your shoulder when you're working. Yeah, it's like, why are you watching me play? Get out of here. But, yeah, really nice guy. And just the talks he did with Gary when they didn't do the factory tours, they did a talk in the meeting room that year. And, yeah, what a great guy. What a gift to the industry, right? He's so approachable. He's just a really nice, down-to-earth guy. We're definitely lucky to have him steering the bus of pinball. Absolutely.
    105:53
    Yep. Cool. Well, I guess I'll go with shout-outs. Eric, thanks for being on the show. It's great to hear you on the podcast. I know you used to be on the roundtable discussion a while back. Yeah. And it's great to have you here, and you sound great, and it sounds like things are going well for you.
    106:12
    I want to give a shout-out to all you guys again. I really enjoy having these podcasts once a month. It's a perfect amount of time to talk about things. It gives a chance for news to come out and talk about some things that appeal to us as hobbyists and enthusiasts. And I'm going to give a huge shout-out to Jason, who always opens his home to people coming over to get to experience games that we never get to play on location. And it's just a blast to have him be part of the pinball community and have us all have a great time hanging out and having fun and just opening all of his collection to everybody around the Reno Sparks area. and he would even open it to people who came down from Sacramento. So if you ever come down here, definitely let them know. But thanks, Jason, for providing fun for all of us. Yeah, if he listens, thank you for the frequent invites, man. I can't wait until it's not winter and I can actually act on some of them.
    107:10
    Yep, exactly. You know what? I'll give my shout-outs now. You know, of course, thanks to you guys for, you know, always being here and making this whole thing possible. Big thanks to Eric for joining us. Always great to hear your voice.
    107:29
    You know, thanks to the CCPL and our local competitive scene, the whole competitive scene up in Reno, Jim, all those guys, keeping pinball alive, doing the work, making it happen.
    107:42
    Yeah, and thanks to add to your, sorry, but you were talking about the CCPL. Thanks, Mike, for opening your home for the Winter Cup. That was a really fun time. So thanks. And especially, you know, going back to Mike and the whole board, you know, big thanks to the Northern California Pinball Group because it's just starting for them, baby.
    108:03
    Big, big, big show this year. Big show. I can't wait. It's going to be a tough show, Tom. You know what? How many days? 82 days. Or by the time Mark finishes editing this, you know, like 72. 75.
    108:23
    I don't think I have to edit much on this except, you know, a little bit of sound things here and there. But, yeah, anyway, yeah. No problem. I'll get it done as soon as possible.
    108:32
    Yeah. Yeah, I'll just give a shout-out to Dan and to Spencer and to Mark. You guys, thanks for having me on. I always enjoy doing these podcasts. It's good to talk about the games, just pinball in general, and just what a great experience it is to be able to hang out with people every other week and CCPL and play some good games and just the camaraderie and the things that we come to expect and looking forward to seeing people and hanging out at Golden State Pinball Festival that we don't get to see very often and hopefully seeing some new machines. Also, another thing that's really exciting is there are so many more leagues opening up, at least in the Sacramento area. The people that – I think it's the people that run Flipper House are starting these leagues that run like every week, Tuesdays and Thursdays or something like that in Sacramento. There's a league. It's a loosely organized thing. I don't remember what it's called. It's something silver ball. But, yeah, it's just good to see more and more people wanting to play pinball and having people in the community that are willing to open their homes, like Mark and Dan were talking about. it just helps build the community and you know there are three people in my neighborhood that have a freaking Godzilla three so it's just really cool to see all these people with games that want to get into the hobby and they want to go to locations and they want to play different games and they get excited when new stuff comes out it's a great time to be in this hobby and again just thanks for having me on Eric, you don't talk about other leagues on this podcast, buddy.
    110:16
    I just got asked. Oh, sorry. We got the CCPL and we got the Reno pinball. That's it. Okay. No other leagues exist. No other janky Sacramento upstart leagues. Yeah, okay. No, actually, I've really been meaning to get out there, and I've received invites. See, come out, you know, check it out. It's good stuff. And I'm like, oh, man, I need to get out there sometime. It's just with our leagues, it's just, you know, I already do a night every week. It's just hard to find the time. But there's always more time for people, right? Yeah, I'm the same. But I had to, yeah, I had to cut back a little bit, too. I had a nice conversation with my wife. So I have to pick and choose now on the weekend. It's got to be either Friday or Saturday. She laid the law down.
    111:12
    Oh, she did. Yeah, she did. My wife likes to get out of the house more often. Isn't there a pinball? Why are you here?
    111:24
    Oh, gosh. Right. It's because we're doing it at our house tonight. Yeah, that's coming. Well, that's our show for February 2024 Or February, March, whenever No hurry, Mark, whenever you get to I'm going to try to get done before February And it's not, because he got until Thursday I got this, I got this I can do it All right, so that's episode 62 Of the Spinner's Lit Pivotal Podcast You can catch us on our home at SoundCloud You can catch us on iTunes or wherever fine podcasts are sold.
    112:06
    The Spinner is Lit at gmail.com and our Facebook group. What is our Facebook group address, Dan? Just look up the Spinner is Lit podcast. Pinball podcast on Facebook. I don't know what either is. Spinner is Lit pinball podcast. I don't know. H-T-P-N-E-W-W dot pornhub dot com.
    112:26
    Don't really look that up. It's just not a word. Just put it short. Yeah. Yeah, just forward slash Ball-Eats Sharks or Sharky Sharks.
    112:36
    I want to see this. You can find anything that you want to find at that address. Is there a subscription place? So, yeah.
    112:46
    Numbers only area. Okay, got the jacket. I was going to say, you got the jacket. You're good to go. Wow. You are Asian, Uncle.
    112:59
    All right, let's take a side, kids. Play pinball. Keep America strong. Thank you.