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BDYETP 66: The Business of Pinball w/Zach Meny and Ryan Wanger

Bro, Do you Even Talk Pinball·podcast_episode·2h 3m·analyzed·Feb 13, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Operating and distribution discussion reveals pinball is passion-driven; theme dominates earning potential.

Summary

Nick Lane and Kevin Manning of Buffalo Pinball host a roundtable discussion on pinball machine operating and distribution with Ryan Wanger (Comet Pinball operator) and Zach Menny (Flippin' Out Pinball distributor). Topics include route management, league/tournament impact on revenue, financial realities of operating, machine maintenance challenges, and what makes games earn well on location. Key insight: pinball operating is driven by community passion rather than profit; theme is the primary factor in earning potential.

Key Claims

  • Ryan Wanger operates approximately 80 machines across multiple locations (52 at Warren's Classic Pinball, 2 at pizza shop, 10 arcade games at brewery, 4-5 at offices)

    high confidence · Ryan directly states he has '80-something machines now' and breaks down location count

  • Leagues and tournaments generate 25-50% of machine revenue and drive significant repeat play from competitive players

    high confidence · Ryan estimates quarter to half of Press Play barcade revenue came from leagues/tournaments; Nick confirms 4X-5X revenue drop post-COVID from losing tournament structure

  • Operating pinball is not profitable in the traditional sense; machines appreciate in value but operating accounts remain at zero

    high confidence · Ryan: 'that account is at zero basically all the time...it doesn't pay a mortgage or even nice dinners and groceries. It just buys pinball machines that people get to enjoy'

  • New Stern machines at best locations pay for themselves in approximately two years

    high confidence · Ryan states 'in my best location, new Sterns were probably paying for themselves in two years'

  • Ghostbusters earned exceptionally well on location, making approximately $40/day at peak

    high confidence · Ryan: 'Ghostbusters in my best location right when it came out was making like 40 bucks a day, which is crazy'

  • Theme is the dominant factor in determining earning potential for pinball machines on location

    high confidence · Ryan: 'Theme earns the best typically. That's number one in my book. It's not even like the layout, how it plays. If it's a good theme, it's going to do all right.'

  • COVID-era revenue losses for operating routes are severe; some locations down 4X-5X from pre-COVID levels

    high confidence · Nick: 'I've seen a tremendous drop off in revenue now that we're not doing leagues and tournaments anymore...some of the revenues are down 4X, 5X from that'

  • Pinball operating is not a high-risk business; machines retain or appreciate in value unlike other capital investments

Notable Quotes

  • “I get a lot of satisfaction just, like, watching people have a good time, you know, playing machines...building a community...just to have a good time and build friendships is probably the thing that, yeah, that I'm into the most about it.”

    Ryan Wanger @ ~40:00 — Core motivation for pinball operating; emotional vs financial driver

  • “if you were [in it just for money], you'd be doing jukeboxes and video games and crane games. You know, like that's easy money with, you know, no trouble. And pinball is the hardest way to earn your quarters for sure.”

    Ryan Wanger @ ~44:00 — Direct statement that pinball is financially inferior to other amusement operating

  • “Do it because of, as Ryan said, for the community, do it because you love the idea that when you put a pinball machine out there, people get to play pinball...Do it because you want to see pinball continue. That should be your motivation.”

    Nick Lane @ ~58:00 — Explicit framing that passion, not profit, should drive operating decisions

  • “that account is at zero basically all the time and if it gets up enough to buy a pinball machine and i buy one and it goes back down to zero...it doesn't pay a mortgage or even nice dinners and groceries. It just buys pinball machines that people get to enjoy.”

    Ryan Wanger @ ~62:00 — Candid admission that operating revenue does not translate to personal income despite 80+ machines

  • “I've had games that make a dollar a day. And I've had games that, you know, Ghostbusters in my best location right when it came out was making like 40 bucks a day, which is crazy. But it just, but it dropped off immediately.”

    Ryan Wanger @ ~66:00 — Illustrates extreme variance in machine earning potential and short revenue windows for hot titles

  • “Theme earns the best typically. That's number one in my book. It's not even like the layout, how it plays. If it's a good theme, it's going to do all right.”

    Ryan Wanger @ ~72:00 — Direct statement that theme trumps gameplay quality for earning potential

Entities

Ryan WangerpersonNick LanepersonKevin ManningpersonZach MennypersonBuffalo PinballorganizationComet PinballcompanyFlippin' Out PinballcompanyWarren's Classic Pinballorganization

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Operating pinball machines is financially marginal; operator accounts remain at zero despite managing 80+ machines. Revenue insufficient to cover living expenses.

    high · Ryan: 'that account is at zero basically all the time...It just buys pinball machines that people get to enjoy' and does not pay for 'mortgage or even nice dinners and groceries'

  • ?

    business_signal: Pinball operating more viable when paired with other business models (bar/arcade owner adding pinball) rather than as standalone route-based operation; standalone route profitability challenged.

    medium · Nick: 'you're making money. You hand somebody a drink and they give you five bucks' vs pinball-only revenue model

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Widespread sentiment among operators that pinball operating should be motivated by community passion and love of pinball, not profit; financial returns secondary to exposing public to the hobby.

    high · Nick: 'Do it because of, as Ryan said, for the community...That should be your motivation'

  • ?

    community_signal: Leagues and tournaments generate 25-50% of pinball machine revenue and drive significant repeat play; removal of competitive infrastructure severely impacts operator profitability.

    high · Ryan estimates leagues/tournaments drove 'a quarter to half of the money' at barcade; Nick confirms financial impact

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Pinball operating is low-risk investment compared to bar/restaurant ownership; machines retain or appreciate in value, allowing operators to exit without capital loss even if unprofitable operationally.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.370

0:00
All right, so coming up on this episode of Bro, Do You Even Talk Pinball, we've got a special episode with special guests to have a roundtable discussion on the business of pinball, specifically operating pinball machines, distributing pinball machines. All that and more coming right up. Double Super Jet Pod!
0:30
I need a roof. I want a target shotgun. I need a suit. I need a double. I've got five in my life. That's right.
0:52
Nick Lane and Kevin Manning of Buffalo Pinball. Boom shakalaka. What's going on, everybody? Happy February. Yes, February. It's almost Valentine's Day. Hope you're spending it with your loved ones. Nick Lane, what's going on? It's your boys, Nick and Kevin.
1:11
Coming in with another bagger. Who do you love more than the bros, right? There you go. That's right. Happy Valentine's Day. Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. We've got some special guests and some great discussion ahead. But first, we can't do this without thanking our partners. So, Nick, do you want to do the honors? I changed my layout. I've got to move the pin side. Let's do it. You do the re-embolish. All right. Well, let's start with our premier partner, Pinstadium. Pinstadium Lighting Kit. This will illuminate the hell out of your pinball machines. It's controlled by iOS, Android app. He's got several different models. I like the Neos. I like the Pinstadium Neos. That's my sweet spot right there. And then, if that's not enough, there's a 10% discount when you use coupon code BUFFALO. and if you actually pay attention we give away a set of Pinsidiums every month on the bro show and like 20 people enter to win which is crazy because these things are valued like $350 so just get in next month I want to see like 40 entries easy just pay attention we do it once a month let me give you the pro tip before you move on if you subscribe to the Twitch channel and join the Discord you get access to a special channel in Discord where you can enter and vote early for the giveaways every week. So, support the channel and you get a little bonus out of it. Good job, Kevin. Alright. Well, listen, this is... I hope you're not skipping over the ads this month that people are listening because we've got the man himself from Comet Pinball, Ryan Wenger. He's going to do an ad for Comet Pinball. Ryan, tell us about Comet.

high confidence · Nick: 'if you buy a bunch of pinball machines, you put it on locations, you don't make money...the pinball machines are probably going to hold its value if not go up a little bit'

“It's a little bit of a bummer as somebody who's really passionate about pinball that it is a theme.”

Nick Lane @ ~73:00 — Expresses industry frustration that casual players prioritize theme over pinball game design quality

  • “You're thinking about doing it. You've got to understand. You've got to know what you're walking into...The motivation for me...do it because...you love the idea that when you put a pinball machine out there, people get to play pinball.”

    Nick Lane @ ~60:00 — Clear guidance to prospective operators on realistic expectations and proper motivation

    • Press Play
    organization
    Pinball Jonesorganization
    Pinstadiumcompany
    Titan Pinballcompany
    Pinside.comorganization
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Ghostbustersgame
    Kim Jonesperson
    Bro, Do You Even Talk Pinballorganization

    high · Nick: 'the pinball machines are probably going to hold its value if not go up a little bit, so you just turn around and sell it'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Theme is the dominant factor in machine earning potential on location, outweighing gameplay quality and design complexity. Industry observation that casual players prioritize IP/theme over pinball design excellence.

    high · Ryan: 'Theme earns the best typically. That's number one in my book. It's not even like the layout, how it plays.' Nick responds: 'It's a little bit of a bummer as somebody who's really passionate about pinball that it is a theme.'

  • $

    market_signal: Extreme variance in individual machine earning potential; games can make $1/day to $40/day depending on theme, location, and novelty; new releases show sharp revenue decline after initial period.

    high · Ryan: 'I've had games that make a dollar a day...Ghostbusters...was making like 40 bucks a day...But it just, but it dropped off immediately'

  • $

    market_signal: Significant post-COVID revenue decline for pinball operators; some locations experiencing 4-5X revenue reduction due to loss of leagues and tournaments.

    high · Nick: 'I've seen a tremendous drop off in revenue now that we're not doing leagues and tournaments anymore...some of the revenues are down 4X, 5X'

  • $

    market_signal: Machine prices have increased significantly ($1,600+ over two years) while operator pricing to consumers remains flat, squeezing margins and ROI recovery timelines.

    high · Nick: 'the pinball machine that you were buying two years ago is now like $1,600 more, but you're still charging the same'

  • ?

    product_concern: Parts availability issues and extended downtime (2+ weeks) for component replacements (e.g., node boards) problematic for commercial operators; machines may need to be removed from location during repairs.

    high · Ryan: 'there would be times where maybe it would be two weeks that a game was down, and I was waiting for, you know, a node board from Stern'

    • 2:45
    That's right. Comet Pinball, modern lighting for your pinball machines. If you've seen a machine lately that has beautiful looking LEDs in them, or any time in the last year is probably Comet bulbs. And so we've got, I don't know, got kits for games. We got a thousand different products. It's crazy. Come check it out. If you've watched me stream my Adam Sandler Doctor Who, they're both totally decked out with Comet kits. They look great. That's right. There you go. Yeah, all my games that don't have stock LEDs have Comet. So it's like a no-brainer. You got like a monopoly. The government's going to break up your operations. I don't know, there's that new company that the IPA posted about today I don't know who the hell they were, but okay Oh shit, we'll do a hit piece on them Alright, and if that's not enough Our next sponsor He's going to be able to do his own ad as well Zach Menne from Flippin' Out Pinball You're up man Hey, how's it going everybody? Buffalo land, what's going on?
    3:45
    We've got Flippin' Out Pinball, I guess buy a pinball machine from Flippin' Out or a brand-new beautiful topper. We've got used machines. We sell for most of the major manufacturers out there. You can hit us up at flipinoutpinball.com. That's flip, the letter N, out to pinball.com. Or you can text me at 812-457-9711. And for God's sakes, go buy some Comet pinball bulbs. You got those hot new Stern Insider Connected kits too, right? Absolutely. Yeah, get them while they're hot because they're hard to keep in stock. don't text weird things to Zach well that's just an open invite to do that thanks Nick here they come I think I'm going to do that right now test it out let them know you heard the ad on Buffalo and send them a text I need my cheat sheet to put up the rest of the partners who are not on this call not now at least make sure we get everybody I mean I know this by heart alright Titan Pinball of course another OG Titan pinball, makes silicone rings, but so much more. The most comfortable mat in the world. And, again, I like their pinballs when I have to replace the pinballs in my pinball machine. And they have a product that I will always be buying from now on, which is their kind of static-clean flipper button protector. And that will save, for like $5, you can save $500 if you're Nick Lane. All right. Pinside.com. Man, that is the place to go to buy, sell, discuss, hear news, rank, and rate pinball machines, and just argue with your fellow man. That's pinside.com. And then we've got pinballraffle.org, the original raffling for charity. You can support charity. You can potentially win a pinball machine. It's a win-win in my book. That's pinball.edu, pinballraffle.org. Head over there. And then last but not least, Jersey Deck Pinball, makers and the most beautiful pinball machines on the planet. And you can buy a jersey, Jack, from Zach. He'll sell it to you. He will.
    5:49
    We should mention that we have a giveaway going on right now from Flippin' Out Pinball. I'll tell you, hashtag giveaway in chat if you're watching live to enter to win a Mandalorian Translator. Thanks to Zach and Flippin' Out for that. And it's a bonus for you who's watching live. Thanks for tuning in. Zach just entered himself. There you go. All right. Save himself a couple bucks from shipping if he wins. So here's the gist of the show. So we've gotten a number of requests to talk about, like, operating pinball machines. I've been an operator since 2017. I'm like the side, right? Like, this is not my full-time job. So we've been meaning to get to it. I think it's a cool topic to talk about, especially people who are just curious or even people who are thinking about getting into it, or maybe others who are into operating and just wondering what's going on for other operators. So I think it's a cool topic. And, you know, as we were getting into this, I was like, well, I can make this more interesting by bringing in somebody who does this full time and has been doing this longer than me, has a larger operation, which is Ryan from Comet. So, you know, great guy, great sponsor. I think that will add to the conversation. So we'll start off talking about that. But then I was like, well, if we're going to talk about the pinball business, let's get Zach Menny in here, because that's the other side of it, right, is selling pinball machines and hearing from a distributor. I don't think we hear a lot from the distributor side of things, and especially with what's going on and how crazy pinball is right now. I think that will be interesting. So this is kind of like the conversations that I like to have and what I'm really into, and I hope you guys are as well because I think it's going to be a fun show. So let's start with the operating side, and thankfully we've got Kevin Manning and we've got Zach Manning who can ask questions along that, and I'll kind of steer the conversation. but Ryan do you want to just do kind of a brief intro to yourself about how you got into pinball how you got into operating pinball machines as well yeah sure in 2013 I ended up getting an arcade game just sort of randomly I saw one at a consignment shop for like a few hundred bucks and I realized like hey I'm an adult with a basement and a little bit of extra money. And so I bought a few arcade games and got into fixing them. And when I would talk to people about it, they would always say, hey, do you have any pinball machines? You know, my friend has a few in his basement, or my uncle does, or growing up, you know, someone down the street. And it was always some story about pinball and never about arcade games. And so I thought, you know, maybe I'm missing the boat here with pinball. I used to love going to arcades as a kid, but pinball kind of sucks when you don't know what you're doing and you're not good at it. It seems very unfair. And so then I ended up starting to play pinball, really getting into it, bought a game, bought another game, and then I knew somebody, a friend who wanted one for their office, and they decided it was, like, too expensive to buy a machine and they didn't know how to fix it. And so I said, hey, I'll get a machine and you guys can pay me for it every month. And so a month later they wanted another game, and then a month later they referred me to somebody else. And so it just kind of happened like that. And I bought a machine from somebody who had the opportunity to put our machine into a bar, into a barcade that had just opened. And so I kind of helped her out. Her name's Kim Jones. She has a place called Pinball Jones in Fort Collins. So we worked together, and it started out being all of her machines. And over time, she would take hers out, and I would put mine in until they were all mine. and so then it, I don't know, it was very, it was not intentional at all. I just really loved pinball and I loved getting the opportunity to introduce other people to play pinball and to have good playing machines on location. So how many locations do you have right now and how many machines are out en route? Well, it's changed a bit in the last few years. the main public location that I started with was closed during COVID and then I'm not doing the machines there anymore. So it's, I guess my main thing that also happened during COVID is that my favorite arcade, Lions Classic Pinball, which is just pinball machines, the largest place like that in Colorado, they were going to closed forever because of COVID and I got to take over. So now things used to be that I felt like I was operating in a few different places and now it feels like I have my own arcade and then there's just like a few things on the side. So I've got 52 machines at Warren's, classic pinball, two at a pizza shop, 10 arcade games at a brewery and like four or five machines at offices. gotcha so how much how much time do you spend a week on i mean you've got the the business of comment and leds how much time are you spending in a week on the operating side of pinball i don't have a very good answer for that at all um when um when i had the barcade i play there was 13 machines there and maybe i'll say i'll speak to that so i when i had 13 machines at this barcade, I would say once or twice a week I was going in to fix something that seemed kind of urgent, you know, something that was broken. And, you know, some of those could just be a few minutes, but some of those might be a few hours. And then, you know, what would happen is, like, I would go and do a collection, and that would take an hour or two, and then I'd fix some things and clean some things, and then I'd stay, and then there'd be league night. And so, you know, knowing exactly how much time I spent fixing was very much wrapped up in also running tournaments and running leagues and just being there working on a machine and someone comes in, a friend of mine and we talk or somebody who is like comes over and they're like, I've never seen the inside of a pinball machine. This is amazing. so I would say those 10 I guess I'd guess you know those 10 games maybe is five or ten hours a week probably for 10 to 13 games that we're getting a moderate amount of play that's right and I think it's interesting to have this discussion because there's like pre-COVID operating pinball machines and then post-COVID and there's like the answer can kind of varies when you focus on one of those time frames. But you mentioned leagues. I'm sure you have tournaments out there. What's, like, the size of, like, your leagues and tournaments? I'm wondering how, like, impactful having leagues and tournaments is on the business. Like, how big is it? And if those leagues and tournaments were to disappear, what would that do to your business? Yeah, that's a – I hadn't thought about it specifically numbers-wise, But I know that – so before I started, this was – this barcade was called Press Play. It was in Boulder. So Boulder is a town of, like, 100,000 people, which, you know, not that big compared to a lot of the places where there's huge pinball venues.
    13:10
    Before I opened that up, there was a pizza place with maybe four machines. They didn't have any – they did have some events many years ago, and then they kind of, like, went away. And so my league ended up being between like 15 and 30 people.
    13:29
    And so basically I was running that continuously. You'd have it every week, once a week, and then maybe after the season take a few weeks off and start it again. And it was mostly the same people coming back. Some people would come and go. But I would guess maybe a quarter to half of the money that came into the machines was because of leagues and tournaments. And not just those nights, but also those players coming back at other times during the week and playing. Yeah, and I think that's an important point. point, and I'm not surprised because, you know, one of the things that motivated me to get into operating pinball machines, I mean, it was the desire to put pinball machines around the Buffalo area because it was just kind of located at this one place, and that place is where a total asshole to a Buffalo pinball and eventually banned me from there because they hate money. But besides that, I mean, I just saw, like, this is a way of exposing more people to pinball, but also there's leagues and tournaments, right? And we saw growth in that. And if you think about how much money does, like, a pinball person spend on pinball in a year? I mean, I even put out a survey to try to get an idea. It's hundreds of dollars, I would say, right, versus, like, the casual person. There's a lot of casual people, but they may throw a few bucks into a pinball machine. So what I saw that when we had pre-COVID, when we were kind of just running on all cylinders, we had a number of locations, and these locations might – We had a few of them that would have like eight pinball machines, eight to ten, something like that. When we would run leagues and tournaments and events, we did good on revenue. Like the machines were making like a good amount of money to justify doing the business. Now the variables change because of COVID, so you got to throw that in there. But I've seen a tremendous drop off in revenue now that we're not doing leagues and tournaments anymore. I mean, we lost locations, so we can't do the leagues and tournaments like we used to. We used to have like a travel league. So we have less locations. We have less machines at these locations. But, you know, some of the revenues are down 4X, 5X from that. And I'm not surprised. I mean, I would have arguments with some of my business partners. They would totally disregard like pinball leagues and tournaments. They thought casual people were really the bulk of our money. But I knew that wasn't the case, and I'm seeing it now. And that's, I think, one of the things I want to impress on people who are listening to this and thinking about starting up a route or thinking about putting games on location is those people who are pinball people, you've got to find a way to engage them. You know, if you've got a community that has maybe a home league or has leagues and you can find a location and start putting machines in there, make sure you're getting a tournament. Make sure you're getting, like, a standing league or something, and that's going to make a huge difference. That's going to help you have a chance to be successful in the business.
    16:27
    I got a question for Ryan. Yeah. So were you the one running these leagues and tournaments, or did you have enthusiasts in the area who are doing it at your location, or how does that work out for you guys?
    16:40
    It was me doing it. It didn't have to be, I guess. You know, I probably could have tried to find somebody, but I really like, you know, playing myself. And, yeah, so it was me. But I know there are places nearby that have different arrangement. You know, there's a lot of times it is the operator and, you know, you have to go and do collections and work on machines anyway. So it makes sense to, you know, try and maybe just pair that with a league night. But I know there are places where, you know, the operator is just not somebody who's into leagues and tournaments. And so they'll have somebody else run it.
    17:26
    What do you like? What excites you about operating pinball machines? I get a lot of satisfaction just, like, watching people have a good time, you know, playing machines. You know, when we were talking about leagues and tournaments, like a lot of people will say, you know, I'm not that competitive or I'm not good enough or whatever. But, like, that's, you know, in any league or tournament that I'm in around here, There are, like, world-class players, and there's people who don't even, you know, know the rules to the game they're playing. There's, like, a wide range of things. And so just, like, building a community. This is something, I guess, I've done in other aspects of my life before pinball that I didn't quite realize. But, you know, things like I've, like, captained, you know, sports teams. And, like, you know, when I was a kid, I ran, like, a Nintendo club, you know. And so, you know, I guess sort of like creating something that gets people together, like just to have a good time and build friendships is probably the thing that, yeah, that I'm into the most about it. Yeah, I mean, I can totally relate to that. You know, I like the idea that I'm exposing people to pinball, right? And I think pinball is special and it just needs to be out in the public. Like, I kind of feel weird sometimes that I have this collection of, like, you know, I don't know, 14 games in my basement, and a lot of times they're not getting played. There's something like a selfish aspect of that. So I feel like I'm doing my part for pinball by making sure that there's some out, that people can just go and play and experience. And I think when you talk to people about pinball and you tell people you're into pinball, a lot of people, their face lights up because at some point in their life they have, even though they're not a pinball player, they have, like, a positive experience with pinball. Like, it's such a cool thing. And, you know, I don't think I've run into somebody who doesn't like pinball or hates pinball, right, or is just, like, upset you told them that you're into pinball. So that's cool. Totally get the community. I think that's the way to do it. What do you not like about operating pinball?
    19:37
    Before I say that, I'll say that probably the second most – the thing that I like about operating is just having, you know, maintaining games well. We've all had experiences where you go and play a machine and it doesn't work well or hearing other people have a bad experience on machines that aren't well taken care of. So you have to really be passionate about pinball and know a lot about pinball to have your games play well. And you probably can't just be in it for the money either. Because if you were, you'd be doing jukeboxes and video games and crane games. You know, like that's easy money with, you know, no trouble. And pinball is the hardest way to earn your quarters for sure. But it's really rewarding. I mean, the thing that I like least is just is when there's problems, you know, fixing problems and having games down.
    20:35
    Like, I mean, it'll happen, you know, that something breaks and you don't have a weird part. And so you don't have it and you have to order it and you have to wait days. And then, you know, my arcade here now is only open three days a week, so that's better. But the barcade was open, you know, 14 hours a day, seven days a week. And so – and it's in a basement. And so, like, there would be times where maybe it would be two weeks that a game was down, and I was waiting for, you know, a node board from Stern or whatever. And that – it's like, oh, man, do I take this machine out of the basement, you know, do I put an out-of-order sign on it? So it's that, yeah, that's the worst part. And moving machines. Man, if you could just, like, pick up a pinball machine and put it in a backpack and go set it up somewhere, that would be a huge, that would be hugely different. But moving games is, it's hard work and, you know, and can be dangerous. And, you know, just try not to hurt yourself. Yeah, this is a crazy, stupid hobby in terms that we're moving around 300-pound pinball machines. Like, I don't even, like, I'm so, like, do I even want another game right now? I mean, of course, the answer is always yes, but it becomes such a, like, a Rubik's Cube of how am I going to get it in my basement? Who am I going to get to help me? When is it going to happen? I don't want to do it in the wintertime because of snow and all that. So that's the other aspect of moving games around, and we've had to move a lot of games around, too. Let's talk about you mentioned like financials when you were just talking a moment ago, and I think that's the important thing to talk about because it is a business, right? And financials are important on how you do that because this is your time that you're spending. Your time is worth money.
    22:23
    And you said in there, like, look, there's not necessarily a lot of money in pinball, but there's better ways to operate amusement devices like jukeboxes over pinball, and you'll probably do better that way and you'll have less stress.
    22:40
    When people ask about operating pinball, I think they're curious to see if it's worth it. And my answer is similar to yours. Like the reason I got into it was because, again, as I said earlier, it's like a donation in some ways. Like it's still a business and I treat it like a business, but like there's easier ways to earn money in my free time if that was my goal.
    23:04
    I wanted to put pinball out there for the community. I didn't want to do it like I'm like an indentured servant to pinball where I'm just running around and being miserable. Like I do want to make some money for my time. But the money that I make or brought in and, you know, pre-COVID it was okay. Like we always kind of kept on investing into the business and buying more machines. So I had not really seen any of the profit that's come out of it. But it's sort of negligible in the grand scheme of things. The motivation for me, and I would say this to anybody else who's thinking about getting in there, do it because of, as Ryan said, for the community, do it because you love the idea that when you put a pinball machine out there, people get to play pinball. That normally wouldn't. They normally can't afford a machine or wouldn't think about putting a machine in their house.
    23:48
    Do it because you want to see pinball continue. That should be your motivation. I think some people can make some maybe decent money in pinball, at least in pre-COVID times. You know, during COVID and where we are in COVID, like, two years later, you know, our revenues are down significantly, even, like, our best places. So this is an even trickier time for me to recommend somebody getting into pinball. And then, you know, we can even – I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, and we can talk about it. But, like, you know, the prices are going up on pinball machines, right? So, you know, what do you charge, right? Like, the prices go up. People complain when they're at a dollar now. but now the pinball machine that you were buying two years ago is now like $1,600 more, but you're still charging the same. So you're doing the same amount of work. You're making less money. At some point, you're like, something's got to give. So I just wanted to give that feedback because it is challenging.
    24:43
    Anybody who's thinking about getting in this business, you really have to understand and have like a clear vision and wide-open eyes of why you're doing it because that's going to help you pull through some of the bullshit and lack of money and going out and repairing stuff. So I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add to that, but I just wanted to kind of share my experience.
    25:04
    Yeah, like I have 80-something machines now, and I started in 2013, and that's crazy. The operating didn't pay for all of that stuff initially. like basically you know as an operator my you know i have a separate account for that that account is at zero basically all the time and if it gets up enough to buy a pinball machine and i buy one and it goes back down to zero and then there's um to even get to this amount of machines i'd like take a loan from myself and like pay it back over time so it's uh you i mean what's happened is because i've been like expanding sort of accidentally and growing I just have ended up with an amazing collection that has been paid for all the time, but it doesn't pay a mortgage or even nice dinners and groceries. It just buys pinball machines that people get to enjoy. And so if I stop doing it and I sell everything, then there'll be some money there, but there hasn't been all along. And people, I mean, often here people don't really talk about, they don't give specifics on numbers, but, you know, I've had games that make a dollar a day. And I've had games that, you know, Ghostbusters in my best location right when it came out was making like 40 bucks a day, which is crazy. But it just, but it dropped off immediately. And so T.O. Pinn had asked about like ROI and all that stuff, thinking about it as an operator. I think that, you know, in a lot of businesses, ROI makes a little bit more sense because you buy some equipment or you spend all this money to generate money, and then the thing isn't worth anything at the end. You know, like the equipment or the materials or whatever aren't worth anything. But it's strange with pinball machines because now you can even buy a machine and operate it and even sell it for more than you paid for it.
    27:11
    So I don't necessarily think about things in terms of ROI. And when I had a location with just 13 spots, I was a little more focused on having the best earning games in those spots. And now that I have this arcade, which has a history of having classic games of all eras, I have to have some games out there that hardly make any money because they're EMs and people like to, you know, it's good for the,
    27:43
    it's good to have just like a mix of different machines. So in my best location, new Sterns were probably paying for themselves in two years.
    27:55
    But again, you could sell those games and get your money back. But I have not ever done the accounting for like what my time is worth. And I have not ever, like, subtracted the cost of labor and parts off of, you know, the amount that I've spent on machines. So it's all very fuzzy. And like Nick said, yeah, you got to just do it because you love pinball and you think it would be fun. And if you want to make money, you run a successful bar and you put pinball machines in the corner. And maybe you love pinball and maybe the pinball machines make money, but you're making money. You hand somebody a drink and they give you five bucks.
    28:41
    Or they spend hours putting $5.25 into, you know, tens of thousands of dollars worth of pinball machines. So it's, yeah. Yeah, I would say in like that, you know, example where you talk about like making money in the bar aspect, you're absolutely right. I think the one benefit of pinball is that you're not taking a lot of risk in pinball. Number one, you buy a bunch of pinball machines, you put it on locations, you don't make money. Well, what's going on right now, the pinball machines are probably going to hold its value if not go up a little bit, so you just turn around and sell it.
    29:16
    Whereas if you go out and buy a bar and your bar is losing revenue, there's way more things, way more liabilities. It's kind of like there's not a lot of risk in operating pinball that I can see, other than maybe, you know, you get into it and you're not making much money and you're kind of spinning your wheels or moving these heavy machines around. But financially, I don't think you're going to get hurt. There's just not a lot of upside at the same time in terms of finances. Now, of course, you know, you've got 80-some machines. Those are assets. If you cashed out, you're going to be doing pretty good. So that's the other thing. I mean, you can almost buy a machine and park it in a place, and it's like free storage on a pinball machine that's appreciating in value and also making you some money, which then you can maybe write off on tax and depreciation costs or something like that. But I think that's a good overview on the finances of pinball, which is, again, this is a business. You're thinking about doing it. You've got to understand. You've got to know what you're walking into. I'm curious what you think are general characteristics of a game that earns well or has the potential to earn well. I would answer that question by saying theme, theme, theme is super important on location. Theme earns the best typically.
    30:34
    That's number one in my book. It's not even like the layout, how it plays. If it's a good theme, it's going to do all right. It's going to do good enough in my book. Maybe it won Ghostbusters earned very well for us as well I don know what it was about Ghostbusters There got to be something more to the theme But the theme is super important What have you found in your operating Yeah, it's a little bit of a bummer as somebody who's really passionate about pinball that it is a theme. You know, I guess that's what you'd say about real estate is location, location, location. And pinball, it's just a theme. When Star Wars came out five or so years ago, I didn't really – I didn't like it that much, and I didn't buy one. And I let a friend of mine buy one and put it in the bar cave, and he got to keep the money, and it was the best-earning game we ever had. And, you know, like I was just like, oh, you know, it's not good enough for me, this serious tournament guy. And so, you know, but like weirdly at the same time, Mandalorian did well in the beginning, and now it's just kind of okay. So in general, I guess I would say it's almost entirely theme and sort of like licensed and recognizable themes. And, you know, you see the conversation a lot. I know you guys have talked about it, people wanting original themes, but dialed in, I love that game. It bombed, you know, like commercially, I think. I don't know that they sold as many as they thought they would. They didn't make a lot of money on location. And probably my Jersey Jack game, I would choose to play first over the other ones. So that's a bit of a bummer. And there's other – there are – I mentioned licenses, but there's also classic games that are unlicensed, so like Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness. Those games still do really well. I've had weeks recently here at the arcade where Attack from Mars is number one.
    32:41
    So over, you know, even the newest games that have just come out. Yeah, that's crazy. Because it's like, yeah, dial-in doesn't do great. Dial-in is more impressive than Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars, I would argue, in just the terms of it's a more modern game. The lights and sounds, everything that's going on, big screen. and yet you've got Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars beating it.
    33:09
    And those games kind of break the – they're the exceptions to the rule, right, in terms of theme. Are you buying pro premium LE? Like what are your thoughts on that as an operator? Yeah, I've been – for years I've been like a pro snob where I just, you know, no, I only buy the pros. I just don't even bother trying to figure out, you know, which is the best version to buy. and I would make, you know, I would tell myself like, okay, well, there's less stuff to go wrong on a pro.
    33:38
    You know, one of the motivations is that you get them faster. So those are the first versions of the game that come out. So if you're operating, you know, I remember actually the first game, maybe the first game that I bought new was Game of Thrones and I thought, oh, I'm going to buy a premium. And it was like five months later and it hadn't arrived yet. So I switched and got a pro and it got there before my premium would have. So that's definitely been a motivation for me.
    34:07
    I have since started buying, I have bought some premiums and I don't know, I can't really, it's impossible to say whether it's worth it or not, I guess, you know, because the only way you would know is you would have the pro and the premium side by side next to each other and i i did yeah i i can't i can't imagine that having a premium or le would make more money as an operator enough to justify price increase but again you don't really lose the money anyway if you were it may you know they maintain their value so it's it's really confusing and probably like easier as an operator if you just sort of like had a plan and stuck to it and didn't you know torment yourself with is it worth the money are the features there um people are you know i i don't think there's a lot of people that are traveling to a venue that they don't like as much as yours because that other venue has a different version yeah go ahead exactly please i've had an argument with my co-host over at the pinball show, Dennis Creasel, about this a little bit. He said I'm an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't round games. But I would assume that getting that pro out there when the title is new, it's fresh, everybody wants to play it, even the pinheads locally will probably drive so that they can get their hands on a rush or whatever the title may be. Do you guys find, Nick and Ryan, that getting that pro out there quickly will make you more money because the premiums, they take sometimes two months afterwards. And by that time, sure, it's kind of a different game, different features, but you're going to have some people that are like, I played the hell out of the pro, I'm good, or I know the feel of that game. I just feel like over time that title is going to kind of get more stale as every day goes on. So you try to maximize hitting people up for that pro. Just a thought, though. Yeah, I think that makes sense logically. You know, Ryan had the good example of, like, Game of Thrones and waiting five months. That seems crazy when people just, like, they want to play the new thing. They want to play it as soon as possible. That's just people are wired that way. To me, it's like, look, the pro is less money, less capital that you've got to put into it. That's huge. And then less things that are going to break on it. And you have a premium, or God forbid somebody's putting an LE out there, which I just don't. I don't understand. But with a premium, you just have to have that game has to be played that many more times just to break even before you even turn a profit. And they seem to keep pace in terms of resale value, you know, percentage-wise. So, yeah, I don't get it. I was at a place in Austin, Texas a couple weeks ago called Cidercade, and you pay $10 and everything's on free play. And, dude, they had a Godzilla LE. And I'm like, what the fuck is this person thinking? Like, I couldn't wrap my mind around, like, why would you do that? Like, why would you just beat the shit out of that game? Why not buy a pro, keep the LE for yourself? Or if you really want to impress people, get a premium. But, yeah, that operator was just, they had, like, the higher-end versions of the games. And I just, like, this doesn't make sense. Like, this is either a person who doesn't know what the hell they're doing, or they just, like, just have so much money and love pinball so much, They're like, I'm just going to do a hard flex here and have the best version, let people play that. But I couldn't figure it out, man. It happened to be a scratch on my head. I can see, like, people putting in premiums if your area that you're locating or routing is pretty saturated. You kind of want to distinguish yourself from the others by putting in a premium to offer those local players maybe a different flavor instead of just competing pro versus, you know, a bar down the road that has a pro to, hey, we've got the premium. so come play that.
    38:09
    I've seen some places do where they buy the Pro, and then they upgrade to the Premium, and it's ready, too, so that's another option. I've seen some rounds.
    38:18
    So I just did that for the first time with Godzilla, where I bought the Pro and the Premium, so I would get the Pro right away, and then the Premium would come later. And some of that is because just Elwin, basically all my favorite games of all time, or at least modern machines are all Elwin games. I love his designs. And I've had some people – I've been renting to people in their homes a little bit, just like a few people here and there. And because I have an office location, I just thought, you know, when the premium comes, I can sell – I'll be able to sell the pro right away or move it to another location. And it was okay. I don't know if I'll do it again. I mean, I did get extra, you know, for – the premium came much faster than I expected. So it was like six or seven weeks later. So for six or seven weeks, like it was, you know, making great money and people were able to play it sooner. But I think like going all premiums and LEs is for a situation where you have kind of money isn't necessarily such a – money isn't an object and you just want to give people the best and fullest experience.
    39:29
    I have another question for Ryan and Nick as operators. So I have a lot of people ask, if they're looking into getting into operating pinball machines, let's say they had five machines that were going to put on location. Is this location specific where I would think that the more you can put in one establishment is going to draw the crowd of pinball people more regularly? You're going to have more consistency than spreading each of those games to five different locations. Do you guys find that a pinball earn, on average, individually better if it's surrounded by three or four or 20 other games? Or do you not see any correlation there? Yeah, that's a really good question, and it's something I'm dealing with right now, and I'm glad you brought that up. So my experience has been you want to have a place that's a destination to go play pinball is better than a place that just has a random couple games. You know, are you going to get in your car to drive to a place that has two or maybe even three games at most, or are you more likely to make it like the agenda of going to play pinball in a place that has ten games? And from my experience, a place that has ten games wins.
    40:42
    Like CBW is a great example. When CBW opened up their new building, we only put a couple games there as we were kind of just building up and moving games around, and they didn't do that great. and one reason was I think they were stuck in the back room and they were kind of outside, out of mind, but then when we put in like 10 games in that same back room, we went up like 4 or 5x in terms of profit. And then, yeah, there's a lot back and forth in the story. Then they basically wanted to turn that back room into like a private room, so they kind of mistakenly said get all the pinball machines out, But we could keep, like, three kind of out in the main area, main floor. So now we went from 10 machines in a back room that were hidden to less games but super visible. Like, people were, like, bumping into games kind of deal. But the games made less. The games, like, we lost profits went down by half or more. So, yeah, it's definitely been my experience that having, like, almost being almost an arcade, right, whatever that definition is. now there is you know the law of diminishing returns like if you have 10 games and you add 11 games are you making more money or is it just you're spreading the money out but there is there is a sweet spot that i found where you need to like and i don't know what that number is um i think it's it's it's probably more it's got to be more than five i think maybe eight to ten is the sweet spot when it becomes a destination but yeah that's been my experience ryan what do you think yeah i mean that's a good anecdote i can't top that i would guess that my that you know i've had some locations with one or two games and some with five and then best play was uh maybe it was eight and then it got up to 13 at one point so for those sort of smaller things the more machines there were the more money each machine made per day you know so you know these places that just have two you think oh well all this money's only going to two machines But, yeah, regulars didn't go and casuals would just, you know, put in a buck once in a while. So I agree with that assessment that there's probably like a critical mass. It's probably somewhere in the five to ten range of games that makes it a destination. And so, you know, I mean, the other thing is, you know, if you're just getting started and that, you know, somebody, the question was like, you know, somebody who's just getting started. do you want to have one location or do you want to have many? You might not have a choice. You know, you should probably just take whatever opportunities you can get and then, you know, figure it out on the fly. I think I see people talking about, you know, they worry about insurance and business plans and contracts and, you know, all that kind of stuff, like putting the cart before the horse. And, you know, I think if you're into it, just find whatever opportunity you can and then figure it out as you go. I think even just from a sanity point of view, having 10 games in one place is much easier than having two games in each of five places. All your games are in one place. Do all your maintenance in the same place. You don't have to deal with five different venue owners. You don't have to rotate your games nearly as often. And you have a place where you can create a community, which you can't do when you just have one and two offs. Yeah, and I would add to that, you know, you mentioned venue owners. I think, again, because of the way the finances work in this, make sure that if you're going to get into this, make sure you like the person that is going to own the venue or the bar or whatever and that you deem them easy to work with, right? You don't want somebody who's a pain in the ass. You don't want somebody you can't trust. That's just going to make this business a nightmare for you. And, you know, it's all over the board in terms of the personalities. And, you know, sometimes people who own bars are not like the – not the greatest people, not the best people. So just be careful. You know, we have good relationships with places we have our games, but that's not always the case. And I think one thing that I – I'm sort of just jumping all around, but I think we can kind of get into maybe some best practices, Ryan. We'll kind of wind this discussion down, then we'll go over to the distribution side. But, like, some best practices is, one, we always had contracts people signed.
    45:09
    I think I started off with, like, a year contract, but then I scaled it down for some places that I was unsure about because we were growing pretty quickly early on. And there were some places where I'm like, yeah, pinball is going to do great here. Like, it was just obvious. And then some people would ask for a pinball machine, and I wasn't sure. I'm like, I don't know. So I would make it maybe, like, six months, and I would tell the owner. I was like, look, we'll try this out, but if it's not working out, you know, you're not going to want to have the machine here taking up space if it's just not making you money, right? Like space in a business is very important. They're trying to maximize the amount of money that they're making per square foot. So I always try to tee that up early on so I had an easy out that if I go in there six months later and take the machine out because it's not making any money, they're not like, what the hell. And I still had kind of that experience where the game would be making like $40, $50 a month. I'm like, yeah, we're not doing it for that, and they're still kind of upset a little bit. But I think you want to have these – you want to set expectations early on. You want to have these conversations early on. You want to have a contractor and understanding and be good at communicating. Like, if you can do that and manage the relationship, that's going to make this easier for you.
    46:20
    And actually, I should mention, I turned to Ryan before we started this. I called him up, and I was like, what do I need to know, man? You've been doing this for a while. Like, give me the good, give me the bad. Give me, like, how can I start this out right? I think one of the things you said is do 75-25. We do that. And I agree, man. You're absolutely crazy if you're doing 50-50 with a business. I mean, maybe there's always an exception to a rule, and it works out for people. I think that was a really good piece of advice you gave. We have insurance on our games. Again, you know, I don't want my place catching a building on fire, and then this is a side business fun thing that I do, and, you know, people coming after me for my personal money. I just, it's easy for me just to have insurance and not worry about things for that business. So this is kind of a lightning round of best practices. What do you have? What do you want to add to that?
    47:10
    Well, I don't know if I should say, but I've never actually had contracts and haven't worried about the insurance aspect of it. And I've been lucky that there, you know, hasn't been any damage. And I haven't heard as many, very many horror stories at all about damaging machines. I think people who are getting into it probably think that, you know, like, oh, people are going to pour beer on your machines and, I don't know, smash the glass. I mean, what's going to happen is they're just going to get wear and tear on the sides of the cabinet inside the machine, and you're going to have to repair things. But, you know, I guess best practice is, like, have stuff on hand that – have the easy things on hand that can make a game go down. So that's, like, stuff for flipper rebuild kits. That's rubbers and things like that. You know, you can't – don't worry about having everything, you know, bracket is going to break that you just, like, you can't have, like, the right size, you know, bracket for every coil.
    48:12
    But, yeah, you know, coil stops and links and plungers and flipper return springs and flipper rubbers. So, you know, that kind of stuff. I just clean the games pretty regularly. I'm not too crazy about it. You know, it's just sort of like, okay, once you can – I'm not, you know, scrutinizing with a fine-tooth comb, but, like, once you start to see, you know, some dirt on there, clean that off.
    48:39
    I don't know. I think – I mean, maybe one thing is just for sanity's sake. Like I've seen discussions online where, you know, people say like, oh, well, you don't want to operate because, you know, what happens when it's midnight and you get a call about a game being broken and they're going to throw it out on the street if you don't come fix it? Like that doesn't happen. And if you do, you're working with the wrong people. So, you know, I try and fix things as soon as possible, but I don't.
    49:09
    It's just pinball, you know. And so if it's tomorrow or you've got to order a part and it's a few days later, you've got to be okay with that kind of stuff. I think you guys are selling yourself short at 75-25. I would think that if you're creating a destination somewhere, you've got 10 games, you've got leagues of people that are coming in, they're buying beer. I don't know if I'd want to split anything. I'm bringing you the entertainment. you're making a lot of money off of liquor, there's not going to be any cut here.
    49:43
    Yeah, I think what I run up against when I was going into the business is that you've got the old school operators, right, that are doing 50-50. So my value proposition when I would go to talk to the businesses, the funny thing is, like, we had, like, we secured, like, Masuda Chow's, which is, like, an awesome place for pinball. Like, they're the coolest kind of arcade in town, right? And, you know, they talked to other operators, and the other operators, I'm going to bet money on it, we're probably doing 50-50, but they didn't come off as professional. They're grimy, older operators and stuff, right? So we get in front of them, it's like, look, we're doing this because we love it. We had a proposal, and I was like, we're doing 75-25 at a time, and we're competing with 50-50, but, you know, we'll maintain the games better, things like that. So I sold them on that, and we won on low-level professionalism. But you're right, man. I mean, like, that's how it should be. You know, it should be 100% because we are helping to create a destination. We are bringing customers in. We're keeping customers longer. You're 100% right that's the way it should be. I think what holds it back is, you know, the guy who's willing to try to undercut you and do that and, you know, the guy who's trying to charge 50 cents a game. I mean, to me, that's a race to the bottom, and it hurts pinball in the long run, you know, because at some point you're like, fuck, I'm not going to do this. It's not worth it. You know, the cut's not worth it. The profits aren't worth it. Like, I'm just kind of getting worn out and exhausted because this is like, at least in my case, it's like a side piece of my life. So, yeah, man, I totally hear you. I totally hear anybody. I saw 80-20 in the chat. That's good, too. You know, maybe you can always renegotiate later, but you've got to worry about somebody trying to do it cheaper. Totally. I think the same stuff in distribution, too, with, you know, everybody trying to give the cheapest price. Those days are gone. fortunately right now but yeah it was like that as well yeah i think um you know if you are coming into a place that uh doesn't didn't have a previous operator and you have a good relationship with the person or even if not i think it's good to start with the sales pitch of this isn't going to be making money for you guys this is going to be we're going to be creating a pinball community here in this space and people are going to come in and they're going to buy drinks every week and they're going to, you know, spend money in other parts of your establishment. And so, yeah, I'd start higher than you think. I think the 50-50 split back in the day made sense when, well, one thing, I mean, probably when arcades were jam-packed with people and there was lines to play games, you know, that's a different thing. And when you're talking about arcade games and pinball machines, arcade games and pool tables and things that don't need maintenance, you know, that's, uh, maybe that makes more sense, but like start, you know, the negotiation at something that is high and maybe not comfortable with and focus on, um, the focus on the fact that this isn't going to be a big income generator. This is going to be a community building thing and bringing in people to the establishment. Yeah, all right. It's Calvin, Zach. Any questions for us before we move on to the distribution? Yeah, I've got one from Twitter. It comes from Brianna Wu. She says, I would love to hear about the cost of keeping tables running. I played a Godzilla on location yesterday and was shocked how trashed it was. I could see at least $800 of parts needing replacement just visually. She owns a Godzilla, too, so she knows how the game is supposed to play. So, Nick and Ryan, what do you guys think about the average cost of maintaining a game on location?
    53:25
    Go ahead, Ryan. Well, the biggest thing is labor. So, if you, I mean, we haven't said this, but, you know, if you're going to operate games, you should be fixing your own games. You're not going to have the money to pay somebody else to come do service calls for you. Uh, maybe, you know, I use somebody now for the most difficult things, um, you know, that I, that I can't figure out, but try and do, uh, you know, everything else myself.
    53:55
    So I don't, like I said earlier, I haven't done a good job sort of keeping track of hours and keeping track of parts. I would say that, that the time, uh, there's way more of a time investment than there is in the cost of actual parts. I have you know not been somebody who goes around like I don't really mod my games I don't like you know if a ramp is kind of chipped like as long as it still works like I don't replace the ramp I don't replace chipped plastics you know my games aren't like beat up but they don't have to be they don't have to be perfect so I don't know that's my answer you know the Adams family that I bought that was the first game that I bought to operate. I got it on eBay. It came from a place where it was, like, heavily routed. I would guess that machine has made $100,000 in quarters in its life, and, like, you just, you know, you just keep replacing the pieces inside that don't work. I haven't had to, like, I haven't, you know, redone all the plastics or the ramps or, you know, the playfield's kind of worn, but you can, the things that make a game play great are the cheapest things, you know, just, and the easiest things are rubbers and flipper parts and a clean play field, you know, strong flippers, and, you know.
    55:24
    Yeah, so I would add to that, this goes back to buy a pro, less things to go wrong, less things to fix on, less things to break. I mean, Stern Pros are the best thing for operators, hands down. It's remarkable how much we're not doing on repairs or expensive repairs, I should say. Typically when I go and clean and collect, I'm not even cleaning every month necessarily, depending on how much dirt is there, right? Like I'm not laying down wax because these are games that are just there to generate money, and yet the play field still looks good even when I wipe it down. So they're commercial-grade machines. They can take a beating. As Ryan said, it's like if a plastic's cracked, I don't care about that. I'm not ordering another set of plastics because that, first of all, 99% of people aren't going to notice or care. Even people who notice are not going to play if they want to play the game. They're not going to care if it doesn't impact gameplay.
    56:19
    You know, so what am I working on or fixing or adjusting? Usually it's like a rubber broke, usually around the slings. And half the time, if I even kind of see it, start breaking a look at the slingshots. and I'll just rotate it a little bit so I can get some more life out of the – because they started wearing it at the post, I'll get some more life out of that rubber, and that works great.
    56:40
    You know, I check for coin jams. That tends to happen once in a month. Some idiot tries to set the world record of jamming about 50 coins into a slot, so I'll have to fix that. But that's kind of it. Like, we were talking about it in our business. Like, we've got an Aerosmith Pro, and that game came out, what, like 2017 maybe? and that's, I mean, that's got a cool toy where it throws the ball in the air. That thing's been a workhorse, man. I don't think we've ever, like, done, I just jinxed myself, but, like, I don't think we've ever done any work on that game, and it just works, just keeps on going. That's the beauty of most of the Stern pros. Like, the problems you're going to have on those games typically show themselves in, like, the first month if there's, like, a bad design from the factory. But after that, it's smooth sailing.
    57:25
    So my piece of advice is don't go crazy treating the game like it's a game in your home and you want to take it to a pinball show and win a ribbon. You know, we had, like, at one point in the business, we had someone in a business partner who's no longer in it, and, like, he has got a meticulous talent for making his games at home, like, look beautiful. And, like, he'll change the coil wrappers on games. But he was employing that mentality to our routed games, and it was just overkill. It was just not a good return on his time. It's not making us any more money. I think our games, if you go and look at it and play it, they're going to look good, especially for what other operators are doing out there. They're not going to look maybe as good and perfect as my games at home. My games at home are perfect, or I'll make them perfect. But, yeah, it's not a lot of money. It's not a lot of money. Get a Stern Pro, less to break, easier to operate. You're just doing kind of very, very basic maintenance and attention. What about the, like, do you guys go coin machine and keep the coin slots? Do you guys go bill-by-bill acceptor, which are pretty damn expensive, the new ones, or do you go, like, card reader? What about the operators out there wanting to know, is there a big difference between those forms of accepting payment? Good question, Ryan. Go ahead, man. You can tackle it first. Yeah, I don't have a ton to say about that. You know, I have had some smaller locations, but mostly it's been medium size and up. So then there's just a coin machine there. I tried using PayRange for a while. I don't know if anybody listened to the Coinbox Pinball podcast back in the day. Those guys were huge on PayRange and seemed to work really well for them. For me, I didn't really invest in it. I put it in all my machines. This is a Bluetooth device that hooks into the switches in the coin return, and you can use an app. you can load money onto an app and then use the app to credit up a machine. And it's really cool how it works. And I put it in, and people used it a little bit in the beginning, and then everybody kind of just decided, like, the casuals didn't even know it was there, even though there were stickers on all of the machines. And the regulars were like, well, I'm going to be here for hours. I'd rather it's, like, faster and easier to have a pocket full of quarters. I even had somebody tell me that they didn't like PayRange because it showed them how much money they were spending on pinball, and it was more than they realized.
    59:50
    But that's not to say that kind of thing wouldn't work in certain locations. Having some non-cash thing like that might be a good solution if you need to have the machines on free play, for example, so people can use an app or you can give them a code or card readers or whatever. the arcade in Colorado that uses card readers, they do it for the parties so they can have parties where they give out cards and it can still be other people putting quarters in while people are using the free cards that the host of the party paid for. So that's pretty cool. But I've never really experimented too much with bill acceptors. And, you know, maybe now that a dollar is just becoming more the standard when I first started, people would complain a lot about paying a dollar for a machine. And so maybe now that that seems to be kind of a standard dollar bill validator would make more sense.
    60:48
    Yeah, for me to answer that, it really depends on the venue and the audience that's playing the machine. So when we had a location called Game On Land, may it rest in peace, my favorite place to play pinball, there was no quarter machine. our games had dollar bill validators but we had pay range on there and the people who were going to Game on Land, this is a land gaming center, they're all gamers the owners were totally behind pinball and they would kind of coach the you know their customers to use pay range when they can, we had pay range signs and then we did like tournaments and leagues and events there so our pinball players, people who know pinball, people in our league in the Buffalo Pinball community they love PayRange PayRange is awesome I love PayRange as both a user and an operator because first of all as an operator you have to load The minimum you can load on there is $5, so they're going to be spending $5 on your games, right? Like, they're not just going to do a dollar. That money is going to come to you at some point. But even more so, it's less coins to count, less dollar bills to deal with and take to the bank. It's just easier. It's like, let's get into the century. Now, on the flip side of things, you go to places like Masuda Chow's, which is 99.9% casuals who, like, we have pay range on there. We have signs like Ryan said. We have dollar bill validators. People will take a dollar bill. They'll walk over to the change machine, get quarters, and then walk back to the pinball machine and put fucking quarters in there, right? And I hate quarters because they're a pain in the ass. You've got to roll them.
    62:27
    They jam the machines. I'm always fixing quarter jams. So it really depends on your location. If you're going to have a location where, you know, it's going to be leagues, tournaments, and there's pinball people, then I would take a serious look at pay range. I know they changed their price structure, and I'm kind of grandfathered into the older model. I don't know if the newer model makes sense, but just in terms of ease of operating a business and what my customers like, I would do that. But at a place where it's going to be casuals, it's probably not worth the money, and you just want to go with a quarter of a dollar bill. I think community bear works is sort of split. There's no change machine there, thank God. So I think that you have to go to the bar to get quarters, and maybe if the bar is smart, they'll tell them that it uses dollar bills. So I'm dealing more with dollar bills or pay range. So, again, it's really dependent on location and your audience. Yeah, something I meant to mention is the place where pay range failed for me was in a basement and seemed like people didn't really have that great reception. So just, like, you would open up the app, It would take too long to like, you know, has to go to outer space to figure out if you have the money in your account to credit up the machine. And so some place that was above ground or had better service might have gone a lot better. And like it sounds like, Nick, you invested in that, you know, like invested in educating people. And I know like running promotions with it, you know, can make a big deal. So, but, you know, some of that, like you said, depends on the headache of what, how your collection goes normally. I think mine there was easy. Like I would just take the quarters out and pour them into the, count them and pour them into the change machine. And then like a check got written. And so I've been fortunate in my locations to not, to have sort of like a sort of contained sort of ecosystem with quarters and dollar bills and not have to be running to the bank. and I've never had to roll quarters even. So, yeah, that's probably a factor for sure. I mean, pay range, you can do cool things on there. Like you can set it up so every Tuesday from 4 o'clock to 7, games are $0.50 instead of $1. You know, you can utilize social media to say, hey, you know, over the holiday weekend, games are $0.50, things like that. They have kind of like a coupon punch card. Like you keep on swiping, you play seven games, your next game is free. I think that's really good too. because I use that as a defense now. We took off, like, the, you know, three games for two bucks. Every game's a straight dollar. There's no match rewards. I'll be like, look, if you want that deal or you want, like, a deal playing pinball, use pay range. That makes your life easier and you get free games that you play more. But, yeah, you've got to really be on top of it with pay range. It's definitely not for everybody. It just really depends on are you going to utilize all the features, do you have the right audience for that. So, all right, maybe one more. Zach, Kevin, maybe one more question, and then we've got to get to the distribution, which I've got a lot of questions for you, my friend. Yeah, I got one more. It's not financially related, but, you know, Nick mentioned Masuda Chow's, and I'm curious what Ryan's input is here, too, as far as making it easier for casual people on location to figure out how to play. You know, we see people pushing the coin returns to try to start the game. They don't know where the flipper buttons are. you know, what can we do, what should be done to make it easier for non-pinball people to figure out how to play? There's no hope for these fucking people.
    66:03
    You need, like, a concierge, or you need somebody standing there, like, telling somebody, like, when you see them fucking up, like, what to do. You know, and when I'm there, I do that. I help them, and they're like, oh, great, thanks. You know, like, yeah, you're welcome. I'm helping you make me money. So, but, yeah, I don't think there's anything else to do. I mean, it's cool that, you know, Stern's got videos about, like, starting a game and punching it. Like, maybe that's helping some people. I don't know. Look at us. We all, there was no videos. There was no online. And somehow we figured out how to start pinball machines and get into it. And I don't know. It's not that fucking complicated. Like, I think a phone, a smartphone is way more complicated than figuring out how to coin up a pinball machine. Yeah, I don't have a great answer for that other than just, you know, when you see as an operator, when you see somebody struggling, like go over and show them some stuff. I think, you know, that probably everyone who would be listening to this podcast, the show, we, you know, you guys can do that, too. I see, you know, even before I was an operator, you know, it's like you'd see people taking turns playing one-player games and then trying to remember their scores and compare them and, you know, be like, hey, you know, you guys can play a two-player game. You put in enough money, you press the start button twice, and now you take turns. And I think just sort of like being a cool ambassador to people who look like they're new. If anyone gives you like an opening to show them how to do something, they seem receptive to that. To even play a game with someone, to give them a free credit, like notice that they had a really short game and be like, hey, let me give you another credit. Or why don't you try this game? It's a little bit easier. And I mean, still, like the number of times in my life where somebody has said there are rules to pinball. What do you mean is is astronomical. Like so it pinball. You know, I didn't like pinball when I was new. It just seemed like the ball was always going right down the middle. You see, I see people all the time. Like, what, you know, what the hell? Like, what am I supposed to do? You know? And so any opening you can give to yourself just to, like, show people that, you know, there's more skill than they realize, there's more features than they realize, or just, you know, just, hey, if you shoot that thing over and over again, you'll start a multi-ball, you know.
    68:47
    Yeah, dude, I get immense satisfaction out of helping people who are new and certainly especially if they want to learn, right?
    68:54
    This wouldn't have been a problem if we just had the damn pin bar. The pin bar. Yeah. You talked about a cell phone. There you go. Even the kids know what to do with the pin bar. Damn. Everybody trying to crucify Robert. He's a visionary.
    69:09
    See, Nick thought we were going to get away with not talking about Deep Root today, but, you know, they worked their way in. Dude, I like how Zach addresses me on that because he's trying to fucking wind me up. Who knows? He knows what's up. He's just turning it a little bit. All right. Listen, that was – I think chat really liked that discussion. and they said, you know, OB, drunk OB, said this is very fascinating. Honestly, thank you for doing that. So thanks for – this is the preeminent, like, if you want to know about operating, this is where we'll point people to and listen to discussions. So this is – I'm really interested to hear Zach's side of things. You know, Zach is – both Ryan are both great guys. I've gotten to meet them personally. They've been sponsors for a number of years. They're both pinball guys.
    69:53
    I like their positivity. And I think they're both good for pinball, which is why I'm proud to say that they're sponsors and we have a relationship with them. So, Zach, give us a little overview about what's your pinball story? How did you get into pinball? And how did you – well, your background, you were, I think, a psychologist, right? Yeah. How did you turn from a psychologist to distributing pinballs? I won't go too far into it because it's pretty damn boring, and people hate listening to that shit. So I was a psychologist. I paid a lot of money to become a psychologist because, hey, that's the educational system. And thought that was a really good idea. Loved that job. Loved helping people and saving lives. That was all great. And then I became hooked on Pimble really bad. And just like anything else I do, and many of you viewers and hosts can attest, anytime you get into something, you dive way too far into it. And I did. And my wife was pretty fed up with it. She was like, you're doing stupid YouTube shows and podcasts. Like, this is dumb. You're not making any money. Where are you at? And so I was like, well, I had a buddy. His name was Larry, and he was getting ready to retire. He was the previous owner of Flippin' Out Pinball, and he was getting old. He was getting up there, and he was no spring chicken. So I was like, hey, Larry, if you guys ever decide to sell your business, I'd love to inquire about it. Nicole and I maybe as like a part-time weekend thing or evening thing, whenever I'm done seeing patients, I can pick this up. And then my wife will be a little bit better if I've got money coming in. So he said, yeah, I'm almost 70. I'm ready to hang it up. And I bought the business thinking it was just going to be a part-time gig. And it turned overnight into a full-time job. So much so that I was trying to do full-time psychology, private practice, and distribution. And I hung up psychology early this summer. So I've been full-time distributing and selling pinball and arcade as well as doing media content creation for Flippin' Out and other avenues as well. And that's the thing. Whenever pinball is selling as well as it is and it's exciting and passionate, I am about it, then I'll maintain my license in psychology and take a step back from that. I think this is just really a backdoor into getting more psychology patients because of the amount of nut jobs in pinball. You played a long game.
    72:30
    Always a long game. All right, man. Let's talk about distributing pinballs. What's distributing pinball 101? What's your day-to-day? What are you doing? stream of conscience? Yeah, it's tough. I didn't think it would be that much work. When you're selling a pinball machine, you're shipping it. It doesn't seem too complicated. Right now, it's just super busy. I spend way too much time working in pinball, which is fine, but I don't get to play games as much anymore. Pinball distribution is sales. It's marketing, if you're doing it right. And a big part of it is customer service and tech work. I didn't assume. I didn't think it would be that much tech work. But it's legit, man. It is always something going on with the game. And you guys know it. Whenever you spend $6,000 to $15,000 on a toy and you open it up out of the box and it doesn't work, you're pissed. And you want that game working immediately. The problem then is who's going to fix it? Well, if you have a good distributor, that distributor will help you fix it or source out someone to go fix it. Every distributor is different, though. Some distributors, they just push you on to the manufacturer to figure it out. Some will try to work with you to fix it. But tech issues, there's always something tech-wise. Shipping is not as bad. Sales isn't as bad because you guys are like me. I just want these damn things. So I want to buy them. But tech works a lot. So my 9 to 5, my 9 to 10, but BM usually is answering emails, trying to update things, trying to get games in and out from the manufacturer to our shop, to the customer and vice versa. And then spending time trying to call people on the phone to do tech work or to get parts for them. Yeah, did you get a lot of love in chat? So I've been buying pinball machines. I think I put in the order in December 2010 and got my Ironman in January 2011. So I've used a lot of the other distributors out there and had various degrees of happiness with them. But a lot of times if I had an issue, I would just have to go straight to Stern. And then I bought my first game from you, which was Led Zeppelin. And I say this on the podcast all the time. I like working with you because you're one of us, man. You know, when I have a frustration, you get it. I'm not like an annoying customer. You're like, yeah, this is fucking bullshit, right? And I know you're going to help me solve that problem. And that is like service, service, service is everything. And I think you do a really good job. And, again, that's why I'm proud to have you as a sponsor. I'm curious, like, that's what it seems to me. It seems like this is difficult. This seems like more difficult, maybe more financially rewarding, certainly, than operating. But it also seems really difficult because, look, I've bought God knows how many games, both through the business and from my personal collection. And, you know, I've had a problem with every game I've ever bought in a personal collection out of the box. And I don't think that I'm unique on that. So I'm wondering, like, pinball machines are complicated.
    76:00
    so many things that can go wrong. Even when a game is working in a factory, you've got a ship at hundreds of miles. It's getting jostled, so something can happen there.
    76:10
    Do you have a sense of the percentage of the games that you sell, how many are you then answering some sort of email to whether it's a big or small problem? What percentage are you just then helping customers with? That's really tough because very much like psychology, if clients or if patients were happy and they were getting better, they're no longer depressed or anxious, they just stop seeing you. Very much like your pinball distribution. If somebody's happy with their machine, they unbox it, and there's no issues you don't hear from them as much. You only hear the issues that come up, which I'm blessed to have the job that I do, so it's great. But I would guess that this is merely a guess. out of the box, I would say 10%. 10% needs something, whether that something is a node board, a part, or whether that something is just a tweak or an adjustment that needs to be made to a switch leaf or to a ball guide. But I'd say 10%, there's something going on significant enough that I don't roll my eyes. Yeah, I mean, there's probably, you know, a percentage of people you're selling to that have no idea that there's something wrong, so they're not getting reported. Then there's the other percent where, like, they either love fixing it or can fix it so you don't hear about it. And then there's the percent that it goes beyond that or they don't know how to fix it, then they need help. Then it's always different. Everybody's different. Some people, and, again, it's an expensive machine, so I get it. I can relate to them. But some people, you know, even if it's small, even if they have the ability to tweak or adjust something, it's like a principle. They're like, damn it, no. You know, I've got a broken rubber on it. I need that ASAP. You need to get it from Stern ASAP, and I'm not touching this machine until you get a tech out here that does it. That's tough, but we make it happen. Now, on subsequent deals, if somebody – I'm going to be super transparent this whole episode for you guys, so any questions I'm happy to answer. But, yeah, some customers are tough. Some customers will just bust their ass, and you should have to get a tech out there. But they're like, no, I'm savvy enough. I can change a node board out, or I can adjust this switch. So everybody's different, but we try to do our best to fulfill everybody's needs, whether it's, you know, the adjustment of a switch or whether it's my machine's on fire. And you bought and got into distributing it in what year? Oh, we're at three years now. Three years now. Okay. So talk to me about what is the pinball business, What was it like as a distributor pre-COVID versus during COVID where it's just, you know, there was the article, right, early COVID, that things are up like five acts in terms of pinball sales from distributors. You know, prices are going through the roof. People cannot get games. Talk to me about that, what you've seen and what you've experienced. Yeah, very difficult to have an accurate assessment on our end because when we did start three years ago, Pinball had seen already a little bit of a hype. And from that three years ago, as we've all seen, it's kind of continued to go exponentially to grow. But so did our business as well, I think. But we've looked at data from the previous owner to us, ownership-wise, three years from now, probably 10 to 20-fold the business that we were able to turn this into, you know, compared to the previous. So it's tough because as we grow, pinball is also growing, and I'm always trying to discuss that with whether it's JJP or Stern. You know, they might be arguing, well, you know, everybody's growing, Zach. All dealers are able. It doesn't take much to sell a pinball machine right now. I'm like, well, that's fine, but what's that percentage of growth? Because my growth, it feels like sometimes it was flipping out, and as much work as we're putting in is exponential. It's night and day, Nick, what it was three years ago to what it is now. Three years isn't very long. A lot of dealers out there have been in this business for decades. But for us, we've seen night and day differences. For example, when we first got into it, our allotment for LEs, generally, viewer, if you're not a customer, different manufacturers are going to give different allotments to dealers based on typically what they're buying throughout that year or throughout the previous year. So, ideally, the more products you buy, the LE allotment may increase as well. I think I can talk about that. But when we started out, we would have LEs that might sit a little bit. I'm thinking of things like Munsters, a stranger. The stranger thing sat for a little bit. And then you fast forward now where, and also prior to, you would have inventory lists from Astern or from JJP. They would send you monthly or even weekly updated inventory lists. Hey, guys, we've got 75 Deadpool Pros in stock. Let us know if you want any. We're going to run some here in three more months. But we've got 75 right now. And those 75 guys would just stay there. You'd see them dwindle week by week. And we're, okay, I better get some. And then when it's final 20, you see some dealers like, boom, boom, boom, we've got to get them. Now, that's gone. We have to order now, which is probably the most difficult part of distribution. I have to order like nine months in advance of what I think I may need. Now, when a game comes out, it's fresh. You've got rush. Boom. Here's our pictures. Here's Gary Stern talking to us dealers about how this thing works. We're getting ready to, oh, actually, as we're showing you dealers this, it's online live right now. Get your marketing. Boom, boom, boom. So you have to guess within a couple days when you put that initial order in, not only how many am I going to need for my customers interested, which I don't have established yet, which goes to the pre-ordering and listing, how many am I going to need in six months? I don't know when they're going to run this again. How hot do I think this is going to be just based on what I'm seeing pictures-wise and how much I know about pinball? So it helps now being obsessed with pinball as much as I am because some of those dealers who don't really care much about pinball,
    82:45
    I've got to leg up on them. So night and day, night and day. What's it like working with pinball manufacturers?
    82:59
    What's it like on that end? For the most part, it's good. Like working with me, I would think it's great working with me, but I can be a pain in the ass. and so too every manufacturer has their little spot that makes me frustrated. Some in their control, some out of their control. I would say that communication in this industry sometimes, in my opinion, this is not a professional thing, but it's piss poor with some manufacturers. Some of them are better than worse.
    83:33
    But communication is a huge thing with me personally and with me business-wise. I don't like people to lie. I would rather than be straight up and say, I don't know when you're going to get a part rather than bullshit me or rather than just not communicating or answering at all. Because that's what I try to put in. Nicole and I try to put in with our customers and with our friends. So just I like to be shot straight. I don't like this, you know, this lying stuff. So sometimes, you know, you'll get things from a manufacturer. Yeah, we got to come in two weeks. Two weeks is coming. and then you push that communication out to your customers who you care about and who you've built relationships with, and then two weeks comes and goes, and then four weeks comes and goes, two months comes and goes. At this point, I look incompetent as the conduit of communication between buyer and seller of manufacturer and customer. But I would say most of them do very well, but there are some that even for dealers, it's crickets.
    84:34
    Do you have any questions? Yeah, so first off, Borgadog wants to know when you can sell him a Ballarama pinball machine.
    84:47
    Once we know he can actually make something that people will like. There are some interesting questions from chat. This feels very charitable and taxable. It's a taxable way to answer that. It might be a distributor down the line. You never know. Could be. Do you have lists of people you will never sell a Pimela machine to again?
    85:10
    And how close am I on that list at this point? You're not even close. You're like at the top of the list. I'll do whatever I can for Nicolaine.
    85:19
    Nicole's watching. I would say, sure, sure, absolutely. And that's a personal thing. That's a me thing. but yeah there's a couple people that I've told you know what I think it would be best for you to purchase from somebody else in the future I have some references if you would like a couple names that I think are good and can tolerate your bullshit but yeah. Yeah I would chime in on that real quick with Comet Pinball that just like from the beginning I've been very strong in my opinion that you know there's that, you know, we're not just going to like do everything to get every dollar we can, you know, when they're almost everybody is like great to work with. But once in a while, there's somebody who's just it's like, you know, just always causing problems. Things are never fast enough or, you know, like they're trying to like put their anxieties on us. And we we try not to get brought into that. I don't think we've really had to say like, hey, don't buy from us. But, like, the level of support you get from us might change if you become a pain in the butt. And I know there's people out there who is, like, you know, do whatever they can customer service-wise to please everyone and make everyone happy. But, you know, like, this is just pinball. And, you know, none of us are, you know, billionaires here. And, like, we just, like, for a lot of people, you know, we're in this because we love pinball. So we want it to be, you know, part of our lifestyle. And so it's a – I was thinking the same thing about, yeah, are there people that maybe you don't work with so much anymore? But, you know, it involves a really small place. And so just, like, you know, be a nice, decent person. And, of course, like problems will happen, but this is – you know, we're not saving lives here, you know. And, like, this is just, like, something that should be fun for everybody.
    87:21
    That's way too rational and reasonable, Ryan. I have a question, actually. Give me the sales pitch, Zach, on Insider Connected. So I've got now the last two machines, right, that have come out. Godzilla and Rush have it in there by default. How do I decide if I should buy it for the previous eight games?
    87:53
    Yeah, good question. I can try to sell you on this because I do like the insider-connected kits. If I didn't, I'd say save your money and don't worry about pissing it down the drain for something stupid.
    88:06
    I like them because they give you another way to play. They give you something that you get in your pocket. You're on the Internet all the time. Just pull out the phone, scan your QR code, and now you can. The measurables are really important for us pinball people. We want to know not only, you know, how are we doing at home when somebody comes and plays our games, but we want to know, I want to know how Kevin's doing as well. So it's super simple. It's $199. The install is really cheap. I don't know a mod out there right now that you can get for $199. Things are crazy. Look at the topper prices and shooter knob prices and stuff. And as an operator, especially the Insider Connected kit for the Pro kit, it's called, I don't know, It's a messy thing, but Insider Connected Pro. It's for an operator where you guys can see some of the things, whether it's pending features in the future. You're going to be able to log in, see what type of earnings you're getting for specific machines. You're going to be able to see if there's any tech work or issues that continue to come up. You can see your audits and whatnot in there. You can also give little giveaways or setting up specials for the location that you're at. You know, win a free T-shirt, win a free drink, win a free cheeseburger if you compete and get these types of achievements. So it's just another thing to check off the box, too, for achievements. Everybody chases achievements in video games. So why not? You can get to a wizard mode, right, or there's some wizard modes you can't get into. But the in-betweens, the I don't want this game to get stale, whether it's on location or whether it's at home, this is a pretty cheap way to do so and do so with your friends and have fun some of the features not announced yet on the insider insider connected are going to be phenomenal i i know that once all these features come out there's no way in hell that anybody that sees themselves as part of this community you're not going to be able to go without it you're not going to want to go without it phenomenal from an operator's perspective or like like as a home collector will I be more motivated to get it now? Both. Okay, because I'm like, you know, like, I'm a home collector. I can see, like, installing it on my machine and having fun for a little while, but then I'll rack up a bunch of achievements and then, you know, it's $200. You're right. I mean, mod-wise, it's not bad, but, like, I can just see myself, like, a couple months later just forgetting it's there. But in your opinion, they're coming down with some things that have yet to be announced, but you think that that might change my thinking on it? I know it will. Dude, that's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. The other thing is, for those of you who have, I think, September, anything from September on that left the Stern factory is going to have those built in already, so you don't have to worry about installing them. But I think the true testimony for me personally is the games that they are on in my collection, there's not been a damn time that I walked up and when I pressed the start button, I don't at least get out my QR code and just scan it. Just scan it. that's kind of a testament to me that it's worth it for me anyway. Yeah, no, I do like it. I mean, if it was like $50, which I know they can't do that, but I mean the cost to make it, if it was like $50, I probably would buy it now. But maybe the functionality that's coming in the future will motivate me to spend a few hundred dollars. And again, that's for retrofitting a number of games that I own. I know that when it comes to we all are friends with everybody over at JZP. They have a terrific system as well.
    91:46
    They're very similar in respects to what they're doing, and it's kind of the next step in pinball. We know this, getting them hooked up, getting them connected online, sharing, and at some point we're going to be competing with one another online. This is that first step to get there. I know that for a fact. Now, I also know that Stern Pinball, I don't know all the workings of JVP stuff, but I can tell you Stern is so all in on this Insider Connected Kit, they gonna make sure that this thing works in the long run This is what pinball is going to be And we kind of at the tip of the iceberg as to what it can offer right now But firm pinball is all in as much as you can go Do you have a, I don't know if you can disclose this or even know, but do you have a general timeframe in terms of where we're going to see, like, announcements about these additional features? That I don't know. They haven't relayed that to us. But I know that they had a big push between release in October-ish and end of the year to have as many titles. And it looks like they're on a good timeline for that. I think all but three titles of the Stern catalog, LCD, Spike 2 system, are eligible for Insider Connected. So they've been going through timelines very well. I see by the end of the year a lot of the big game-changing advancements maybe rolling out.
    93:16
    Nice. I'd be curious to ask Ryan from the operator's perspective do you see it being beneficial to the games that are in there are people using it are you seeing increased plays because of Insider Connected or is it just like another thing that's there and people try it once or twice and then they bail I have no idea actually and I haven't even I applied for a pro account and then I haven't really followed up with that So, like, I guess I'm going to put a little bit of the responsibility on Stern to sort of, like, sell me on those and why they're good for me. And so that might – I don't know what that looks like. But I think that means, like, showing me some data. Like, hey, you know, this is how often it gets used. I think anecdotally, you know, if I noticed people using it a lot, I'd probably try and have a conversation, you know, with those people and say, hey, do you like this? Like, if I add it to my other, you know, should I add it to other games? And I think I've talked to some operators that, you know, they've been getting pro games with them already built in or even premium games they put on location. And that system for the operator, it is coming. It's going to be more pronounced than it is now. So I don't blame you for a second of not being all in right now as an operator. But as they're going to be in the majority of your games on location anyway, new from the factory, I think you're going to find yourself really seeing a benefit in the future when the cost is pretty little as an operator to have to run these things. It's free information. It's a free way to get more people playing. And it's in its early stages still. We're not even at half a year that this new – it's an operating system in a sense, a whole new operating system out there to all of these games. And as more certain games get in on location in people's houses, it's just going to become very second nature for us all to get used to these things. So it'll take time, but I assure you it will get there if they continue what they're wanting to. I will say from a home user perspective I love all my JGPs I got on scorebit and it's great never getting out a USB stick to have to update code if I never do that again I'm 100% happy with that especially as a Mac user all my friends and my pinball friends make fun of me because they're like you can edit videos you can do all this production but you can't figure out how to use a fucking like USB like what is your problem but I'm telling you like you gotta go through the etcher and then you get I hate, hate, hate that crap. So my games get updated with Insider Connected and with the Wi-Fi stuff with JJP because, yeah, it's one click away.
    96:11
    Zach, one question I want to ask is, obviously, there's people listening to this that they've never bought a new Unboxed Pinball machine, but they will at some point, maybe in the next month, maybe the next couple years. Do you have some general advice that you want to give them as somebody who's thinking about buying a new box pinball machine? Sure.
    96:31
    It seems complicated because we see all of the stuff associated with a pinball machine, but it's really, really not hard at all to receive, to sign for, to accept and set up a pinball machine. For first-time people that are worried about getting into it, here's the thing. Pick a good dealer. A good dealer will go past warranties that companies have. We complain a lot because Stern or JJP, they have these certain warranties that are only going to cover for 90 days, and it's kind of bullshit, right? So find a good dealer that is going to support you throughout. That's number one. That way, if anything comes up, you have a contact person. You can say, hey, this doesn't feel right, or hey, what should I do here? That's number one. And there are some companies who sell direct. You could go through them as well. I'd ask around to see what type of service you're going to get from ordering direct. I'm talking to you, JJP and Spooky.
    97:31
    But go through a dealer you can trust. That way, you know, you're supported always. Number two thing would be acquaint yourself with how to unbox a pinball machine. We're not going to do that here. But the easiest, there's so many YouTube videos out there. I've created one on the Flippin' Out YouTube that is just simply called Setting Up a New Pinball Machine. And I'll walk you through every little thing that you need to do to set that up. The first time you're setting it up, you'll need one extra hand. If you're able-bodied and can lift up something, you know, a couple hundred pounds with a friend or family member, you'll be fine. But the whole setup process can be done in a video. Usually, it can be done within a half an hour. in my opinion, much easier to do than paying for a dealer or somebody to come out to do a white glove because that's pretty costly.
    98:19
    Yeah, I want to reinforce some of the things that you said. Not having, when you have an issue with a pinball machine, not having to deal with the manufacturer is a blessing. When you have a quicker line of communication to them, they're going to be more responsive to you. I mean, I've had to go back and forth with Stern on multiple things over the last decade, and it's just required a lot of time. I think I'm very polite in my email communication and reasonable and very patient, and sometimes the only way I ever got a result was basically having to resort to screaming and yelling, and then finally they'll do something, which is not a way to be. You know, I'm still waiting on it. They said they're going to send me a Mandalorian Pro play field.
    99:04
    You didn't sell me this game. it was another distributor's buy work with Stern directly. This was back in May. They've completely ignored me since then, and no indication I'll ever get one. You know, and I know that if I was working with you, it would be a different story, and it has been a different story any time I've had an issue. So that right there is super, super valuable. Like, it's a no-brainer to me now. And I used to think that's just the way it is with some distributors. Like, people that have bought games from before I know in the community, And I like them, but I think what it used to be like is, like, you're on your own in many ways. Or, like, if I had an issue with a game, the distributor would almost give me a hard time with what I'm saying or my issue. It was clearly Stern's Fall. There's clearly something wrong with the game. Like, they would make me feel bad saying something about it. Or, like, you know, I had, again, I like this distributor. It's for our business side. We've been using the distributor for a long time. It's not you, Zach. the SD card got bricked when it was doing an Insider Connected update on our Godzilla location, so now the Insider thing doesn't work because the SD card is bricked, and I can update it. And, you know, I like this guy, but when I told him about it, he's like, how'd you do that? It's like, dude, I hit update on the game, and it froze, and Kevin was even there. He saw the game freeze and broke, And he just sent me, like, an SD card that I could have bought off the shelf. And I told him I don't have an SD card on my desktop computer. I have a $2,000 gaming computer. It doesn't have an SD card. He's like, you don't have an SD card, reader. He's like, fuck, dude, this is not helpful. So I've not fixed it since then. And that's the kind of thing. And that's kind of, I think, what the business had been before you entered it. It was a lot of, like, goddammit, there's a problem. It's an aggravation. So I think a lot of people just had to just figure it out on their own, which, you know, when you buy any other product, that's not how it is. You know, you buy a product and you expect it to work, and if there's an issue, you call the person who sold it to you, and they're happy. I'm sorry, it doesn't work. Let's get this fixed. The end of the story. That's a lot of the reason I got into this, too, was I've had dealers, and there are some great dealers out there. For anybody that needs a reference, please email me, and I'll give you some great references, the good dealers out there. but I've bought a lot of pinball machine and man, some of them were just shitty. It was almost like they collected money. And I know the argument from, from hobbyists. They're like, why do we need a distributor? They're a middleman. They're the ones making money. There's no reason we could get cheaper pinball machines gang. If we just bought direct and everybody sold direct, I was so sick and tired of that because dealing with dealers that wouldn't tell me the truth or just ghost me after I've paid the money. I hated that. And back in the wild west, man, And that's how it was whenever we first got into it again, only three years ago. So it didn't seem like long ago. But times have been so much different where there would be times where you would, those dealers would give you the best deal, right? And they would go so much under MSRP, sometimes breaking the agreements that they have. Because there are agreements that we have, pricing agreements with these manufacturers. We cannot go below a certain threshold without breaking our agreement. they would go breaking that agreement because if you had a problem you have an issue it wouldn't fight for you they just say you know best of luck uh best of luck to you but i wanted to change that so there are times that stern's called me crazy or people have called me crazy where they're like you know some of these play fields chipping we have that's flipping out pinball have purchased play fields for people when a manufacturer wouldn't cover it or like you're saying nick if you had an issue with an inside. I've had situations where I'm like, we'll just send you out a new kit. We'll send you out a new game. If you're having so many issues, I'll send you out a new game. I'll pay to have. We've lost thousands of dollars doing that. But you've got to get something that works, and you've got to get something you're happy with, because the next time that comes around, you're not going to buy a pinball machine from us, or even worse, you may get out of the hobby altogether, and we don't want that. So I think it's a bigger picture thing. So get a good dealer and all will be well, I assure you. I think that's part of the shift from distributors used to sell to operators, and now so much of the market is in the home market where consumers are used to a certain level of service, customer service, when they buy their products for their home versus an operator who could probably fix everything or 99% of issues that crop up. If you're a first-time pinball buyer in your home and you don't know what's going on, Like, I just want this game to work, and I want a dealer who's going to take care of me, right? Yeah, and I see a lot of questions in chat about out-of-state stuff. So prior to us getting in, it used to be very territory-based. They would accept dealers and distributors throughout the country, throughout the world, based on the location, so service area. So if there was somebody close to me, they wouldn't necessarily put somebody else close because that service area can cover, you know, within a two-hour radius. And they would try to fill up the country doing so.
    104:15
    Those days are gone. When I came in, I told Stern as we were growing rapidly, I said, look, and initially they didn't, they'd tell you the same. They weren't crazy about me saying, I don't have a territory. My territory is the United States. Like my reach, that's what my reach is going to be. Typically they're like, eh, no, because then you're crossing different territories. And I had to remind them, and we all talk about it, this is 2020, 2021, 2022.
    104:46
    The Internet is a thing. So gone are the days that you're getting a milkman to bring you milk. Like, if you want a pinball machine, you can order it online. So why does it matter if I'm in Indiana? We ship just as many machines to the state of Washington and California than we do the next state over. So gone are those days. But you then have to figure out, well, since I'm not local and can't help that person physically by driving over there, what can I do? And that's where people like Berg Bucky, who's been awesome as a tech for us, we will contact one of you pinheads out there and say, hey, you want to make really good money by going to fix something that's easily manageable? We try to pay very substantially for it to be worth their time to go over there, fix something, so that they don't mind picking up the call again whenever we need to use them as a tech. I think that's the only way going into the future things are going to work. I don't think it's territory-based. You don't have to worry about territory-based stuff. We need good techs and then the dealers that are willing to pay those good techs to get stuff done and get it done quick.
    105:51
    Yeah, man, well said. You're kind of crushing it, and it's no mystery why you're crushing it. You're kind of good communication, understanding what the customer needs. It's kind of a low bar that was set for so long, but you've raised it now, and it's a no-brainer to recommend it. Whatever you're making as a middleman, it's well-deserved because I don't want to deal with shit when I have a game, and I shouldn't have to. So thanks for helping everybody. It doesn't say that we're perfect either. Like, look, I make mistakes. I make mistakes as a person. I make mistakes as a friend of yours in pinball. I make mistakes as a dealer. I will continue to make mistakes. I'm trying to minimize those mistakes. But there's times that things slip through the cracks. There's times that my lead times of getting back with somebody are not immediate like I like. Plenty of times I'm answering the phone at 11 or I'm responding back at 11 p.m. because I'm stupid crazy about pinball. But, yeah, this isn't all, you know, rainbows and puppy dogs. I make plenty of mistakes too. And for those of you who have encountered one of those mistakes, my apologies. But, yeah.
    107:01
    We're coming up on two hours, so we're going to wrap it up. Kevin, Ryan, any last questions for Zach? Actually, there was one. Hold that thought for a second. There was one in the chat that I thought was a good question I wanted to read.
    107:14
    And I don't know. I'll find out who asked this, but the question was if you have a sense of the breakdown between percentage of operators versus home buyers that you're selling to.
    107:25
    Every distributor is going to be different. Our specialization is the pinball enthusiast crowd. So the pin side people, the Facebook group people, the Buffalo pinball people. People, so that's our specialty. We get most of the collectors. So I would say my operators are maybe 5% of our business. that's about 5%. We serve the people who are like me who just have to have everything like brand new topper or whatnot. But we have a lot of operators as well and we try to get them I was just seeing Chris the Pinter asking about how do I decide who gets games first. CERN makes it easy because you only get the amount of pros in that first run by a very detailed list with the pain in us. They have to type up all the operators, their locations, who's the operated their number, and that's how many pros they're going to give me in that first run. So they're making a push to get operators their games the quickest.
    108:22
    All right. Kevin, Ryan, any questions from Zach? Yeah, I like the questions you asked, Ryan, and I'll echo those for Zach. What do you love about distributing pinball machines, and what's the thorn in your side? I love that this is truly a dream job. I was interviewed and accepted as a job by a couple different manufacturers, and I turned them down. Best decision I've made at this point because I think I can do more for this industry and this community by distributing pinball machines and creating content and media. So it's truly a dream job. At some point, I'll design a pinball machine, which all of you will roll your eyes and laugh, but it'll happen. But I love, love, love, love pinball people. I love the pinball game. the downside to distribution the thing i don't like is not getting the shit that i order like if i if i want to throw hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars at something uh i expect to get what i'm ordering just like you guys expecting your pinball machine same thing for distribution if i want toppers and i want to buy 100 and 200 toppers i should get those 100 or 200 toppers if i have a part of node board that need customer needs if it doesn't come around, my ass is going to pull it from my own game, and I'm going to send it to that customer. I'm going to be done with the game, so I'm going to be really shitty because I can't play my Stranger Things. So getting stuff quickly is the bane of my existence and lack of communication. But thankfully, I work with people like JJP and Stern Pinball, Chicago Gaming, who are easily at the top of their game when it comes to all of that. So it's just some of the little companies just got to catch up. You know, somebody asked a question about, I don't know if it's serious or joking, but it said, Zach, if you offer financing, I would buy all my new games from you. You know, that's not, that's, I remember, like, years ago, somebody was, like, asking Pinsight, has anybody, like, taken out a loan or used a credit card to buy pinball? And you always have these people, oh, you don't have cash for it. You know, you're stupid. First of all, they don't understand how debt works and how assets work because that's not necessarily stupid, especially right now. I know what they're trying to say, but it's not that clear cut. I'm wondering, especially with pricing going up and everything and how expensive these are, like, well, what a used car would be, some of these games are approaching like you could buy a car for that. Have you ever considered partnering with, like, somebody that offers financing? What are your thoughts on that? I will, to answer one of your questions, Nick, credit card payments are going to become the majority here pretty soon. Everybody pays with a credit card. They want to get their miles. We typically, they cost a little bit more to use a credit card because the margins, I hate to say it, but the margins in pinball distribution are not great. Our financial advisor getting into this said, wait a minute, you're going to push this much in sales for a year, and this is your, like, what are you doing? I said, well, I love this, but margins are kind of crappy. They're getting better now, but credit cards are used all the time. We do accept those. Financing, we've looked into a lot of loan individuals doing those loans. They don't like loaning them, these expensive machines that are going to go into somebody's home and trying to get those back if they default on that. So it's hard. There's only a couple of companies willing to do financing through, but we are, at Flippin' Out Pinball, we are looking into that. The only thing that we have not jumped into yet is crypto stuff. We have not accepted those types of payments, but I think that they are out there as well.
    111:55
    Awesome. A good question from the chat. The chat's been on fire. So hopefully we got to at least the kind of the top questions that people might be thinking or having.
    112:03
    All right. Listen, we probably should wrap this up because both Zach and Ryan have donated two hours of their time. This is a – I love this discussion. I think this is one of our best podcasts, and I think a lot of people have enjoyed it as well. But we got a raffle. We got a giveaway. Kevin, you got that. Yeah, so everybody, thanks to Flippin' Out Pinball, they've graciously donated a Mandalorian Translate, And everybody who has typed hashtag giveaway in chat is entered to win. We have 37 entries right now. I'm going to pick the winner, and it's going to go to Mr. 9865. Mr. 9865, you're the winner. Not following the channel, though. You know, you can throw us a follow. Oh, come on. Follow. You can throw us a follow, you know. And so I will whisper you, which is private messaging on Twitch, to get your information. We'll get your email address, and we'll get it to Zach, and he'll connect up with you to get you your Mandalorian Translate. So I should do the opportunity, though. I feel bad. I want to get this in before I forget, so apologies, Kev, for jumping in. But I should mention that Zach is the second-best pinball content creator out there on the Internet, and I want him to have a chance to give a plug for everything he also is doing in pinball. So there you go, man. Plug your work, please. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. We learn from the best here at Buffalo Pinball in a lot of ways, I assure you.
    113:32
    Friends of Buffalo Pinball, I do Straight Down the Middle, a video YouTube series with my best buddy Greg Bone and I. We're also venturing off into non-pinball-related stuff, so check that out. Follow, like, and subscribe there. I do a podcast formally. It was the This Week in Pinball podcast. It's now called The Pinball Show with Dennis Creasel and I. We've tried to create a network, kind of like Buffalo Pinball has been doing for years, create a network called the Pinball Network. And we have a lot of providers over there doing streams, doing podcasts. We have a dedicated channel now. We do the Pinball Industry Awards through that. We're recognizing some of the great creators of both content and machines and stuff. So TPN is where it's at as well. But what I love most about it is you'll see some figures out there over the years, and I think Buffalo, you guys will appreciate this, that they're very popular. And they work alone. And they will continue to work alone. And that's what they do. But there are some people, the good people out there, that work as a team. Because this is friendship. This is fun. And you see those people succeed because they don't try to do it themselves and they don't try to hog the highway. They're okay with everybody. And that's what the TPN group is. That's what Buffalo Pinball is. And that's what a lot of the good people are out there. So make a friend and create some content. And if you guys need help, always reach out to me at Zach, Z-A-C-H, at flipletterinoutpinball.com. I'll help you out. Yeah, speaking of which, you talk a lot about collaboration. I heard a rumor that you and Gorin are going to collaborate on a topper talk. You've got the topper king shirt on. What's going on? Well, I've got the topper king, and he's cute, too. I like Gorin because he looks good. He's cute.
    115:16
    He is cute. He's a topper squire. He's got a lot to learn. Some people know a lot about toppers, like Gorin. God bless him. And I know a lot about toppers. But then some people move an entire industry when it comes to toppers. So he's got a couple steps to go to. But, yeah, he and I are going to battle it out on who knows the most and who loves the most toppers. That's me. Zach's got the shirt, so come at him. Warren. Yep. Brent. Have you guys seen those tops, Brian? Oh, my God. Wait until you see the Mando topper. I'm telling you guys, I cannot hype this thing enough. The Mandalorian topper is coming, and all of you guys are going to want to buy one, even if you don't have the damn machine. Better than Black Knight's topper? It may be known internally as the Black Knight topper killer. I'm just saying that. Wow. I'll get it. I'll get it in the email. I'm going to get an email from that one. Yeah.
    116:09
    All right. Kev, anything else before we close this out? Well, we should give Ryan an opportunity to let folks know where they can find out more about him, where they can play his games on location, and buy his Comet LEDs.
    116:21
    Oh, man, Zach's little thing there makes me feel like a slacker. Yeah, you know, if you need LEDs for your game, Comet Pinballs, .com is the place to get them from.
    116:32
    My arcade, which I'm really proud about, which, you know, was built by other people over the last 17 years and I got to carry this work forward is in Lyons, Colorado. It's about an hour from Denver. We have 52 machines of all eras, and there's not a lot of places like this in Colorado or anywhere where, you know, it's not a bar, there's nothing else to do here but put quarters in machines and listen to good music and have a good time. So come check that out if you're in the area. And I don't know. I thought of one other thing about operator best practice. If stairs are involved, get an Escalera. Zach sells them. I was resistant to this at the beginning. It's like, who wants to spend $2,000 on a dolly? But if you can afford pinball machines, you should have one of these dollies because you heard your back one time, and you're going to regret it.
    117:31
    I got one more for Ryan. Ryan, how do you pick the candy that goes in that order? People love the candy that comes with the comment orders.
    117:39
    I think everybody has their own story about that. You know, if they don't like the candy, they think they've done something wrong. And if they do, that, you know, we remembered their favorite kind. So make up your own story and enjoy. Love it. All right, guys. Listen, this is awesome. I just wanted to prove that we can run a serious podcast once in a while, not just we'll go back to shitting on all these crazy new companies that want to pop up because that's fun too. But we love you guys. You guys are both great for pinball and pushing pinball forward in your own way. So thanks for joining us. Proud to have you both as sponsors and we'll catch you all later. All right. If you haven't yet, be sure to follow us on social media. We're on Twitter, Instagram, our YouTube channel is Buffalo pinball. You can join our Facebook group. We're also on discord, discord.gg slash Buffalo Pinball. If you're a subscriber to the channel, you can get in there and vote early on our weekly giveaways for Birdie Even Pinball every Thursday. You can email us if you've got questions, feedback about the show, talkpinball at gmail.com. You can follow and subscribe to the Twitch channel. It's a great way to support the content that we do. If you have Amazon Prime, you get Twitch Prime, which lets you share a Twitch subscription for free. It's a great way to support the channel if you've already got Amazon Prime. If you haven't yet, give us a review on your favorite podcast platform of choice. It's a great way for more folks to find out about the show. And you can share it with a friend. Tell them, hey, you like pinball? Check out Brody Even Talk Pinball.
    119:14
    Stay tuned. We've got a brand-new episode of Topper Talk with Goran coming at you right now. So thanks, everybody, for another great month, and we'll see you then. Take care.
    119:26
    It's Topper Talk with Goran right now. Let's all have some fun. This is about plastic on top of your pins. Go and buy one now. There's a topper here and a topper there. Here a topper, there a topper, everywhere a topper. It's critical to the gameplay experience. You must buy one now. It's your monthly fill of toppers right now. Topper Talk with Goran.
    119:53
    Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Topper Talk with Goran. the part of the podcast where Kevin and Nick give me about three to five minutes to talk about everything happening in the very active and profitable topper community. Now for our first topper talk of 2022, we're actually going to throw it back to an old game, a game that came out in 1992, and if you're guessing, the game is Fishtails. So let's head into the office and talk about that topper. All right, so here we are in the garage, so let's dive into Fishtails, no pun intended. So if we look at the top of the game here, Fishtails has a topper on top of the game, and the topper consists of a clear plastic cover that has a fish prominently featured, and that is a three-dimensional fish that's mounted on a backboard that shows the fish sort of under the water and has the fish swimming towards some bait in the water. There's also lights mounted below the fish that flash. And Fish Shows came out in 1992, and when you think about what the pinball scene was in 1992, it was sort of flipped. The majority of the games built were on location, and not as many were in the homes. And the purpose of a topper in the 90s is that it was to draw guests at a location to that new game to play, and I think Fishtails did that successfully for multiple reasons. The way the topper works is during certain gameplay actions, the topper's activated, The lights go off, there's a lot of sound, and there's a solenoid in the fish or mounted to the backboard that actually causes the fish to flop around, and that would draw a lot of attention to the game. But not only would the actual flopping draw a lot of attention to the game and the lights draw a lot of attention to the game, but, you know, when you think about the purpose of a knocker in a pinball machine, that was to alert everyone in the game that, hey, you won a free game and check this out and you should play this game too. And the solenoid in Fishtails is so loud that I actually think it causes everyone in an arcade to stop and look to see what that sound is. And clearly, the game was a success, not just because of the topper, but it was working because Fishtails had over 13,000 cabinets built. now it's funny nowadays most fishtails are in private homes and most collectors probably can't even fit the topper on top of their game in the location where the game is but I forget who the collector who told the story was and if anyone knows drop it down in the comments below but I know someone who actually put the fishtails topper on their wall in their like home arcade and when the topper is activated be sitting on the wall or in the shelf and it would still actually work, which is kind of neat. Fishtails is a game that I would love to own someday, not just for the topper, but it certainly, I think, adds to the experience for me. And it's actually, I think, pretty critical to the operator's experience, or was back then, because it really drew people to the game and enhanced the overall zany atmosphere that's Fishtails. So I give this topper a high rating.
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    Thank you for tuning into another episode of Topper Talk with Goran. Tune into the next Growshow for another episode, and get out there and buy a topper. Thank you for coming to my Topper Talk.