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Episode 412: Major Champions

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·50m 21s·analyzed·Dec 28, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Interviews with 2024's major pinball champions on winning, learning, and competitive strategy.

Summary

Pinball Profile Episode 412 features in-depth interviews with four major championship winners from 2024: Zach McCarthy (IFPA Open), Jason Zoller (Pinberg and IFBA World Championship), Raymond Davidson (Papa), and Escher Lefkoff. The episode explores their paths to victory, mentorship influences, game dissection strategies, tournament preferences, and views on competitive pinball rules and format.

Key Claims

  • 2024 saw five major championships after Papa and Pinberg returned; previously there were four

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis opening remarks about the tournament structure changes

  • Zach McCarthy won the IFPA Open at Indisc for the second time

    high confidence · Teolis introduction and McCarthy's interview

  • Jason Zoller won both Pinberg and the IFBA World Championship (IFBA 19) in 2024, approximately one month apart

    high confidence · Zoller's interview; he mentions Pinberg in June and IFBA 19 later

  • Raymond Davidson won Papa (the Lyman Memorial tournament) for the first time, his first Papa-style major in seven years

    high confidence · Davidson's interview; mentions 2016 as last major win

  • McCarthy suggests Luke Nahorniak will win his first major at Pinberg 2025 or EPC

    medium confidence · McCarthy's prediction: 'I think he will win Pinberg 2025, and I'm calling it now'

  • Zoller predicted Viggo Lopren would win EPC 2024 before the event, but Viggo came close

    medium confidence · Zoller: 'before EPC in Poland happened this year, my prediction was that Bigo was going to win it. He got close.'

  • McCarthy prefers to remove error restrictions in IFPA finals rules, allowing top qualifiers to select their three favorite games

    high confidence · McCarthy's detailed explanation of IFPA rule change preference

  • All four 2024 major winners have won multiple majors (none of them won their first major in 2024)

    high confidence · Teolis: 'Everybody who won a major this year has in fact more than one under their belt'

Notable Quotes

  • “I think getting to the final four is like the hardest part in my opinion because the amount of like things you have to survive early on and like the like risky things you got to do you know like that's the tough part when you make final four i feel like it's easier to like lock in because you're there you're in the finals this is the time to perform right”

    Zach McCarthy @ early in McCarthy segment — Insight into tournament pressure and performance psychology in major championship play

  • “I'm going to say the state of Colorado because I don't know if I can pick one person. There's a few there.”

    Zach McCarthy @ mentorship question — Highlights Colorado's significant pinball community as developmental environment; McCarthy credits parents, Adam, Escher, Jordan, and Donovan

  • “I think Iron Maiden's a great one just for learning drop catches, learning loop passes, things like that. It's really fun. I also think ACDC is one of my favorite just to like play and i think it's like that one is really good for like forcing you to play efficient”

    Zach McCarthy @ game recommendations segment — Recommendations for aspiring players to develop foundational skills

  • “All I'm doing is I'm looking for like a kill shot, an end mode, where if I reach this point, like I just win. And every game has one, if you think about it...So finding your path to that kill shot as early as possible, that's what you try to do.”

    Zach McCarthy @ new game dissection question — Reveals McCarthy's systematic approach to understanding new game rules and strategies

  • “I've been trying for such a long time, you know, been playing competitively since I was eight years old. And, you know, last year I tried my best to get my first major, got top four in all three of them last year. But glad I put in that extra bit of effort this time and won it in June.”

    Jason Zoller @ Zoller opening remarks — Shows persistence through multiple near-misses before breakthrough major victories

  • “I wanted to be a world champion. I worked really hard for it in June for the IFPA and that will probably be my greatest win for a while.”

    Jason Zoller — IFPA World Championship (IFBA 19) resonates as Zoller's most significant achievement of 2024

Entities

Zach McCarthy (ZMAC)personJason ZollerpersonRaymond DavidsonpersonEscher LefkoffpersonJeff TeolispersonLuke NahorniakpersonViggo LoprenpersonArvid Flygare

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Five major championships in 2024 represent restored tournament infrastructure after Papa and Pinberg returned; IFPA Open at Indisc established as first major of annual calendar

    high · Teolis: 'For a long time, there were always four, but when Papa and Pinberg went away, they added a quote-unquote fifth...both Papa and Pinberg returned, so we actually had five this year'

  • ?

    community_signal: Four elite players winning major championships in 2024 demonstrates robust competitive ecosystem with multiple championship pathways and diverse winner profiles (young specialists vs. veteran players like Davidson)

    high · Five majors in 2024 with four different winners; Zoller won twice; McCarthy and Davidson both multiple-time major winners

  • ?

    event_signal: IFPA Open at Indisc consistently praised as premier tournament; card format and machine variety attract competitive talent; three-week distance from UK Open suggests tournament calendar proximity

    high · McCarthy: 'the work Jim does on his games is magic...the best tournament in the world overall'; Zoller: 'I'd be a little biased to say IFPA 19...but that's just because it's my current favorite'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Positive sentiment toward tournament organizers and venues; Interium praised for successful inaugural Papa hosting; Jim Belcido's machine setup described as exceptional ('magic'); Northwest organizers recognized for effort on limited resources

    high · Davidson: 'nice for Kevin Martin, nice for Penny Epstein, nice for Andy Bagwell and the whole crew'; McCarthy praised Jim's work 'is magic. I don't know how he does it'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.151

0:00
It's time for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teels. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com or on Twitter and X at pinballprofile. Great Facebook group as well. You can email pinballprofile at gmail.com. And if you'd like to show your support on Patreon, that would be wonderful. It helps keep the show going. Thank you so much to Lua W, GME Law, Jerry S, Jake C, and others. That's patreon.com slash pinball profile. Hope everyone had a wonderful and safe holidays, a chance to be with loved ones, a chance to reflect on the past year. A year in pinball in which we saw not one, two, three, four, but five major championships. For a long time, there were always four, but when Papa and Pinberg went away, they added a quote-unquote fifth to kind of fill the gap of two missing majors. That was the IFPA Open at Indisk, which is coming up in just three short weeks. Go to indisk.com for information. You'll have a great time. So that's always the first major of the year. But this past year, in 2024, both Papa and Pinberg returned, so we actually had five this year. And the five were won by four individuals who can now say they are all multiple major winners. Back in the fall at the UK Open, I sat down with each of them to discuss their championships, ask some questions to each of them, and they all had different unique answers. So here now, let's hear in order from Zach McCarthy, Jason Zoller, Raymond Davidson, and Escher Lefkoff. We start off with Zach McCarthy because he won the first major of the year, the IFBA Open at Indisc. It's not the first time he's won it, the second time. Everybody who won a major this year has in fact more than one under their belt. What is it about the Indisc and IFBA Open format? The format's great. We're at the UK Open, which uses the same overall qualifying format, same finals format. I think Papa for finals is especially pretty exciting. it's like you need to win those games in order to make it through the next rounds and to win the tournament it is because especially great just because you know the games that jim sets up and works on are the best there are so it's just it's in my opinion the best tournament in the world overall well here at the uk open uh you put up maybe one of the greatest tickets i have ever seen it was three firsts and two seconds and the only reason those two seconds weren't first is because you had firsts on another card. It's nuts. It was crazy. Yeah.
2:44
@ breakthrough question

  • “It meant a lot to me. It was really cool having a tournament entirely in his honor. And at Interium, great job for a first-time event there.”

    Raymond Davidson @ Papa championship opening — References Lyman Memorial connection; acknowledges Interium's successful inaugural Papa hosting

  • “Just, you know, knowing every game had to be stellar and knowing that no score was safe. So it was just kind of had to watch with clenched teeth, just like, what's going to happen?”

    Raymond Davidson @ Papa difficulty question — Captures intensity of Papa format where all games matter in four-player finals

  • “I would say just have a plan, whether or not, you know, you think you're going to do the plan. It doesn't matter. Any plan is better than no plan. You know, know that you're going to go for X, Y, or Z, you know, multi-ball this, that, and just kind of focus and try to have a plan going into every ball.”

    Raymond Davidson @ advice to new players — Core strategic principle for competitive play: intentional game strategy beats reactive play

  • “I famously forgot the add-a-ball on Jaws in the Final Four at Papa. I forgot it existed. The commentator's like, oh, he's probably doing something. It's like, nope, I just forgot.”

    Raymond Davidson @ new game dissection discussion — Humorous admission revealing even elite players have memory lapses on game rules; shows rule depth in modern games

    • person
    Kaylee Georgeperson
    IFPA Open at Indiscevent
    IFBA World Championship (IFBA 19)event
    Papa (Lyman Memorial)event
    Pinbergevent
    UK Openevent
    EPC (European Pinball Championship)event
    Delaware Pinball Collectiveorganization
    Northwest Pinball Champsevent
    Josh Sharpperson
    Adam (Colorado player)person
    Colorado pinball communityorganization
    Jason Zoller's fatherperson
    Interiumorganization
    Jim Belcidoperson
    Pinball Profile podcastmedia

    competitive_signal: Shift away from Flip Frenzy format; players expressing desire for format variety in IFPA tournaments rather than repetitive card format dominance

    medium · Zoller: 'Last year, I was disappointed that Flip Frenzy's disappeared'; 'encouraging a variety of formats...you're going to see a lot of card formats'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Pinberg format (four-game finals, all eras) identified as extremely difficult due to cutthroat qualifying (4-point spreads between advancement/elimination) and requirement to master multiple era games

    high · Davidson: 'Pinberg just because, you know, four-game finals with all eras'; Zoller: 'there aren't too many games and the lines can get really crazy'; McCarthy: 'Pinberg makes you play all the different games'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Head-to-head format (IFBA) identified as hardest and most prestigious by multiple players; McCarthy faced Escher, Jason, Arvid in successive rounds; format tests different skill sets than card formats

    high · McCarthy: 'IFBA. For sure, IFBA. World Championship. Yeah. Because those head-to-head matches are insane'; Zoller and Davidson also emphasized head-to-head difficulty

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Regional community strength differentiation: Colorado (McCarthy's hub), Seattle/Northwest (Davidson's hub), Delaware (Zoller's training ground) produce competitive talent through machine access, tournament infrastructure, and mentor networks

    high · McCarthy: 'state of Colorado' taught him most; Davidson: 'Kaylee George...out of the Seattle area'; Zoller: 'Delaware Pinball Collective...the best local place for me to practice'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Classic Bally/Williams games (Terminator 2, Dracula, Spirit of 76) valued as learning tools by elite players for clear goals, punishment mechanics, and skill development; recommended for aspiring competitive players

    high · Davidson: 'Basically any of those games, those Bally Williams games that have very, very clear goals and punish you for not doing the goals, I think are great learning tools'

  • $

    market_signal: Next generation of major champions predicted: Luke Nahorniak and Viggo Lopren identified by current champions as likely next major winners; both young players with strong recent performances

    medium · McCarthy: 'I think he will win Pinberg 2025, and I'm calling it now'; Zoller: 'I think he's going to win at least one next year' (Viggo)

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Raymond Davidson coded/designed Papa tournament rules; his previous major wins in Copenhagen (2016) and Toronto suggest he has held prominent role in competitive pinball community for extended period

    medium · Davidson discussed designing tournament format and rules; past major wins at international venues suggest long competitive history

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Young players (Zoller, McCarthy) explicitly cite rule memorization, wiki/Till Forums research, and fearless risk-taking as competitive advantages over older players; faster reflexes and younger cognitive advantages

    high · McCarthy: 'I think our rule application is really good...just find the young players fearless'; Zoller: 'we have such a good ability to memorize so many of the rules...if we know an exploit'

    • Yeah, there's so many options here that you can really just find your favorites and just keep playing them, keep practicing. But yeah, everything plays great here. It is fun, and I'm glad you made the trek. But let's talk about some of the questions we're going to be asking all the majors' winners.
    2:59
    What was the hardest part about winning either of your Indy's championships? The hardest part? um i think getting to the final four is like the hardest part in my opinion because the amount of like things you have to survive early on and like the like risky things you got to do you know like that's the tough part when you make final four i feel like it's easier to like lock in because you're there you're in the finals this is the time to perform right but like you don't you just don't want to go out early you know so you know that's that's what i find this to be the hardest part getting through those earlier parts. A lot of people probably already know this answer, but who is the person that taught you the most? I'm going to say the state of Colorado because I don't know if I can pick one person. Yeah, there's a few there. Because, like, obviously, I got to thank my parents for owning, like, 20 games, right, and teaching me how to, like, drop catch, how to live catch, and, you know, like, all those, like, basic skills. And then, of course, like, as far as, like, tournaments and stuff, like, how to, like, perform, how to keep your cool and stuff, I got to go with Adam and Escher, you know. Like, I travel with them all the time. We talk to them all the time.
    4:06
    You know, and like Jordan and Donovan. There's so many people in Colorado, and they've all helped so much. Like, I can't just pick one, you know. Are you going to be okay? You're going to the University of Chicago for second year. Right. In Chicago, is there anybody that can play? You don't want to be following the Sharps. I know, right? Like the Sharps, Andy. There's only terrible people there, you know. So, yeah, I miss Colorado. When I'm not there and I don't really get to play a tournament, but that's okay. I'll still be there in like the summer. There's an old fossil in Chicago too. You might want to look him up named Keith Ellen. Oh yeah. Apparently he's okay. I heard he's like retired. I don't know. Who knows but yeah I mean that'll be nice to see but again all the best to you in school which starts right after this UK open. So you mentioned with your parents and Blizzard and all those kind of good things in Colorado you've had access to a lot of machines which everybody here in the major category has had that access but think about someone who's listening right now, they maybe go to tournaments, they go to leagues, they go to arcades, but they're going to step it up. Maybe they're going to get their first game. What would be a great game to learn a lot of skills, rules, and make you a better player? Pick one game.
    5:14
    That's tough. I think Iron Maiden's a great one just for learning drop catches, learning loop passes, things like that. It's really fun.
    5:25
    I also think ACDC is one of my favorite just to like play and i think it's like that one is really good for like forcing you to play efficient right like forcing you you got to make your shots you have a time period where you have to make your shots some risk reward right risk reward it's an all-time classic and i would 100% suggest anybody to own an acdc if they can okay i don't want it didn't make me win a major but i you know i digress do you have a favorite tournament that you like to go to in this It is in this. It's 100%. I'm not biased. But yeah, literally, the work Jim does on his games is magic. I don't know how he does it, but they're unreal. They're unlike anything else. So always in this. We were talking about maybe owning an ACDC to learn things. Is there one thing you would suggest to a new player? Like, do you want to get better? Learn this skill. um i think as far as like the standard skills drop catches are by far the most important so learning how to drop catch is like pretty key to like performing well but it would be kind of foreign to somebody just stepping up most people when they play pinball they see the ball they hit the ball right when it comes to them i mean i think the holding up the flipper and trying to catch it that way maybe stepping up to a bounce pass but as you know the drop catch is way more efficient, but is it running before you walk? I don't know. I guess that's the hard part for me. I've always known how to drop catch, so surely anybody can learn. Maybe I'm not the best person to ask as far as that.
    6:58
    But you know, that's important. You said dead bouncing. I think dead bouncing is such a useful skill if you use it right. Just take your hands off the game. Don't press the flipper buttons. See what you can do. You can do some crazy things. You can really keep the ball alive. We just don't flip. So you've been to all five majors. You've won in disc, you've opened twice. What's the hardest one to win, do you think? IFBA. For sure, IFBA. World Championship. Yeah. Because those head-to-head matches are insane, right? Like those, getting from quarters to semis to finals, having to face, you know, I had to face Escher this year in my quarterfinal, and I had to face, or then I would have had to face Jason after that, and then Arvid. I mean, those are like three insane matchups, and you've got to win all three. So I think that one's by far the hardest. So you're all governed by the IFBA, the International Flipper Pinball Association, which kind of ranks all the players, and that's how you get to go to the World Championship and maybe do well in your state or your province or maybe your country as well. They have a lot of rules. They always kind of change rules. Is there one rule if you could change it, what would it be? If I could change a rule? Okay. in IFBA I would either remove error restrictions or I would change them somehow because I'm not a fan of that. I think error restrictions for finals it's not for me because I think at that point you've executed enough on classics, on mid-games and qualifying that if you're a top qualifier you should be able to pick all three games that you like in finals and somebody else should have to beat you on one of your favorite games. I think that's a lot more interesting and And it highlights different players' skill sets on different games.
    8:44
    Or it only showcases one skill set. If you're a classics master, if you're a modern master. True. Whereas Pinbird makes you play all the different games. And it makes you play them all. But also, like I was saying, with qualifying, everyone has to play, what, 80 EMS in IFPA? It has to play eight solid states to early Valley Williams? I don't know. I think that's enough to show that you have the skills that, like, you should have to beat Johannes on one of his Bally Williams if you want to beat Johannes. You know, like he's earned that he's earned that position. So I don't know. That's probably what I would change. Hey, it's your you're the new president of the IFPA. You're going to be in Chicago. I'll give you Josh's address. You take it over and make the changes. Yeah, exactly. Well, I've seen you do some good things here at the UK Open. I don't know if this is the right answer, but what I saw you do on Bond 60th and your 62,000 points makes me think maybe that's the game. But your life is on the line. You have one game to play. You have to win it against the best opponent. What is the game? That's tough.
    9:54
    Bond 60th is a good one because I feel like I know it better than anyone else. I also like I like Godzilla Just because it's pretty consistent It's pretty easy It's not too hard to do a couple of deals every time But you're right I think you've got to go Bond 60th But that's recency bias Hey, what you did, I'm not surprised Okay, conversely You can remove one game And it'll never be in a tournament ever again Not that it's a bad game Maybe it's just not your game Or it's not a good tournament game we're kissing it goodbye Zach what is that game? Creature from the Black Lagoon see you later yep bye forever because I suck at that game and people love that game it's fine it's just not for me it's a good game I just I personally don't succeed on it very often okay there are only so many people that can say they've won a major the people we're talking to today have won more than one major who is going to join that club next and win their first major? Luke Nahorniak Luke Nahorniak? yep I think he definitely has the skills. I think he will win Pinberg 2025, and I'm calling it now. Lock it in. Or end it. I think those are his best bets. He's an outstanding player, yeah. You actually named my nemesis. It has nothing to do with a personality. I think Luke's great, but if I'm in a playoff with him, I'm like, okay, hopefully it's not head-to-head. No, he's a tough out, especially on those classic games. He really tears them up. He's good on anything, that's for sure. When a new game comes out, you are kind of the person people go to to say, all right, what do you do in this game? What is it you do to figure out a game when it just comes out? How do you dissect it? So what I normally do is I'll look through the rule sheet. If there's one available, hopefully Till Forums has something. And all I'm doing is I'm looking for like a kill shot, an end mode, where if I reach this point, like I just win. And every game has one, if you think about it. You know, like every game has this, like, end point where you just win. So finding your path to that kill shot as early as possible, that's what you try to do. Really? Okay. Yep. You know, and obviously, you know, you cook things in the lab with, you know, Escher or Jason or Arvid Vigo, you know, all the kids. You know, we all work together to come up with strats. But yeah, yeah, just try to finish it as soon as possible. Is that one of the reasons why the young players are so darn good? Is it the rules knowledge and going through the wikis or the tilt forms? I think it certainly helps Oh yeah skills and reflexes I get it But I think our rule application is really good And then of course the flipper skills to utilize that rule application is pretty good I just find the young players fearless. Like, oh, it's going to take me this to do it? All right, here we go. Got to go in with bravery. You know, can't be scared or else you're going to fail. ZMAC, congrats on your IFBA Open, your second one this year. and good luck to you in 2025. Thanks, Jeff. Jason Zoller with me. You know, those other guys we're talking to today, they only won one major. You won two this year and your first two. Congratulations. Thank you, Jeff. I really appreciate it. I've been trying for such a long time, you know, been playing competitively since I was eight years old. And, you know, last year I tried my best to get my first major, got top four in all three of them last year. But glad I put in that extra bit of effort this time and won it in June. You did very well with the Pinberg win and, of course, the IFBA championship, the world championship at Jim Belcido's IFBA 19. And pretty close. What was it, three weeks apart? Yeah, yeah. Pinberg was probably around a month, a little over a month and a half after IFPA in June. And both tournaments were so, so difficult. I mean, there's just so many good kid players. There's even more each time I go these days. yeah I don't I don't even know how I ended up doing that like back-to-back majors it's still kind of a shock to me hasn't set in yet but I'm very happy about it and you didn't even have a crack at the EPC right there was the fifth major but school gets in the way doesn't it it does yeah there was a tough decision I had to make but my gut was telling me it's gonna be a real tough time to recover school-wise if I go to Poland and go to the UK within two weeks and I might be going to Chicago for the Expo next month. We'll see about that, but I think it was the right call, and I especially do, considering all the stuff I heard about that event. But, you know, can't go to them all, but I'll go to as many as I can. So last year, three top four finishes, but not a major. This year, two majors. What put you over the hump, and what was the hardest thing about winning those majors? Just winning, you know, breaking through and winning that first one, that was the real thing for me, and that's why I think it was that much easier for me to win the second one so soon because I just wanted at least one. I wanted to be a world champion. I worked really hard for it in June for the IFPA and that will probably be my greatest win for a while.
    15:03
    So asking the questions we ask the others that have won majors, who taught you the most in pinball? Oh, of course my dad. He got me into everything, you know, when I was two and a half or three years old. He taught me how to play the Adams Family Pinball Machine at home. That was the first machine I ever played. And now we have a lot more than that. But my dad was who got me into the whole thing, got me into the competitive world of pinball. And is still teaching me stuff and helping me out with some of these tournaments today. And I'm also helping him out with some things. I was just going to say, who's the master here?
    15:39
    Rank-wise, me right now, but we both help each other out all the time. So it's a great relationship. He got me started, and he really was a huge factor. They're one of the biggest factors that allowed me to win that world championship. I've seen you very, very rarely struggle at times. And when I see your father talk to you, it looks like the mental game is where his biggest strength is in helping you. Yep. I mean, if you just saw, I was talking with him right now, getting some advice for that game of skateball that we just played. And it was a very fun match. Great run again, by the way. But, yeah, sometimes if I'm just feeling out of it for some reason, I'll talk to my dad, get some help, or maybe some other people. So, yeah, that usually tends to work. So you talk about having Adam's family. Of course, you have several machines over the course of your young life. But for those people that are looking for, I want one machine maybe to start out and maybe to get better with skills, with rules. Can you think of one machine that might help a novice player get to the next level? Man, there's so many. It depends what era you want, but if you're really into those older games, that can teach you the basics.
    16:51
    When to flip, when to not flip, and many other flipper skills. I guess one of my current favorites right now would be, and it's been for a while, is Jurassic Park. It's been my favorite for a while now. It's just really good. Not too complex with the rules, but it's really addicting. One of my current favorite games. or I guess just whatever appeals to you. If you go to an arcade and there's a game that really stands out to you, you could play that. There's a lot of games where you could learn stuff from. People have given you advice. If you were to give some advice to somebody to get better, what's the one thing you would suggest?
    17:30
    Practice a lot because you need to polish up your flipper skills and work on your accuracy and all those basics, of course. and you also need to compete very often and keep going to things if that's what you want to do, of course. Go to smaller events, local.
    17:45
    I've been going for the last few years to the Delaware Pinball Collective. That's been the best local place for me to practice at and learn. There's a lot of new games that they bring in, so I can learn the rules to a lot of games. So go to local places. You can learn a lot of stuff from that and then start going to the bigger events and that's how you get the experience factor because that's another big thing. as you talk about new games. When a new machine comes out, how do you and the young players who excel so much, how do you dissect that game? So there are so many rules to these newer games these days.
    18:15
    Sometimes what I'll do is I'll either play the machine first and just see how things work out. Other times I'll actually read entire rule sheets over the course of a day or two or something. But it's a lot of memorization, but you also have to apply that stuff. and as you do, you'll filter out the less important stuff, and that's how you'll find by far what's the best thing to do in certain games, especially nowadays with how complex they can get. You've been to a lot of different majors. You've been to a lot of different tournaments, and of course you mentioned the great Delaware Pinball Collective, but if there's one tournament you look on the calendar, what's your favorite tournament to go to? I guess I'd be a little biased to say IFPA 19 from this year, but that's just because it's my current favorite. That format tournament, the World Championship, is your favorite tournament? Maybe right now. It is a very fun format. And the head-to-head, I do tend to do well in head-to-head formats.
    19:08
    Yeah, that's been a really fun one. So what is the hardest of the five majors do you think to win? Hardest? Okay, currently I would say is the Open at Indisc. My main thing is there aren't too many games and the lines can get really crazy. And that could just add to the pressure when you're trying to get a really good card, you know, a five-game card. and that's, of course, the toughest format is card formats, but I would say that's one of the tougher ones right now.
    19:35
    If you could change one rule in the IFPA, what's something that gets under your skin and you can change it? That's a good question.
    19:44
    I guess give me more time to step up to a game. No, I'm kidding. I do have to work on that a bit, but I'm not sure. I would have to think about that.
    19:56
    What's one thing you could think of? Only one? Are you kidding? This podcast, I'll run out of tape. No, I like the IPA. There's some things I'm not crazy about. Last year, I was disappointed that Flip Frenzy's disappeared. That's true, that's true. I guess encouraging a variety of formats. That's it. I think we're going to wind up being in the same formats over and over again, and you're going to see a lot of card formats. Nothing wrong with it. You're just going to see people go, why bother doing match play? It's harder to run, and the card seems to get you there quicker. So who knows? Yeah, I definitely would like more of a variety for sure. And also encouraging people to play in more tournaments as opposed to... Yeah, that's it. Because that's kind of what I've been doing lately, thinking about efficiency and all that, trying to maximize my points. Obviously, it's fine because it's strategizing and everything, but yeah, just more variety and I guess more encouraging players to play. Okay, the question I ask everyone, life on the line. You've got one game. You have to win it against whoever the best opponent is. What's the game you get to choose? Avengers, Infinity Quest, by far.
    21:02
    No question about that. Right now, that's my game. Now, you get to remove any game. Not because it's a bad game. It's just one you don't want to see in a tournament.
    21:12
    I don't mind playing pretty much anything. I mean, as long as the games play good themselves. Let me think. Let me just... He's scanning the room. Yeah, I'll scan the room. Again, not a bad game. Just, oh, you know what? I wish this wasn't a tournament because sometimes it's my nemesis. There aren't many that are.
    21:30
    I guess Beatles. I don't really care for that too much. I mean, I own one, but I haven't been playing it these days. Gotcha. Out of the people in that elite club that can say, I've won a major, who is the next person to join that club that hasn't won? I'm going to say Viggo. Viggo Lopren, if I'm pronouncing it right. He just stepped it up massively between yesterday and today in qualifying here at the UK. I mean, him and Arvid, they've been going at it forever, pretty much. And Arvid won EPC two years ago. And I actually, before EPC in Poland happened this year, my prediction was that Bigo was going to win it. He got close. I think he's going to win at least one next year. I think it's going to happen. Okay. And the other question I have to ask the young folks, why are you young guys so good? we make too many old mistakes, what's the problem? Reflexes? That's one of them. That's another one. And, you know, we have such a good ability to memorize so many of the rules, and that's huge these days. You know, if we know an exploit or just a way to just really quickly get points that other people won't know, you know, for example, on something like Avengers or other newer games, that's a huge advantage. We'll win almost all the time in those cases. and you know it really just helps that we start out such a young age it's kind of like ingrained within us you know we don't have to think about it for the most part it's just we just play and it happens okay you watch out because we're on the corner you're gonna have a mortgage you're gonna have kids you're gonna have a family you'll see how it's oh yeah i'm sure i'm sure jason thanks very much thanks jeff who says that majors can only be won by the young the old man raymond Davidson, congratulations on the Papa win. Thank you, Jeff. That was pretty exciting, and I know something that's obviously special to you with the Lyman connection. Yeah, it meant a lot to me. It was really cool having a tournament entirely in his honor. And at Interium, great job for a first-time event there. Nice for Kevin Martin, nice for Penny Epstein, nice for Andy Bagwell and the whole crew to put that together. So looking forward to even a bigger and better one next year. You'll have to defend. Yeah, I can't wait. I mean, it's 15 minutes from my place, so I have no excuse. Nice to get another major under the belt, two before the World Championships, back-to-back, Copenhagen and Denmark and then in Toronto, too. So it had been a while. Yeah, yeah, I think that was 2016, so a good seven years. I don't know, I can't do math on microphone, but it was pretty cool. You know, I've had a couple seconds at some majors. This was my first major that was a, you know, Papa style, which is appropriate, right? At Papa with the, you know, four player group. And it was, you know, no slouches. It was Escher and Zemak and Neil Graff who made his first Final Four appearance well-deserved by him. What was the toughest thing about winning that Papa championship? Just, you know, knowing every game had to be stellar and knowing that no score was safe. So it was just kind of had to watch with clenched teeth, just like, what's going to happen? I don't know. Again, let's ask some questions that we asked all the major winners of 2024. Who taught you the most about pinball?
    24:49
    Man, I'd have to probably say Kaylee George, you know, out of the Seattle area. Before I could play in bars, he'd let me play at his house and kind of taught me some of the ways. He taught me the shadow loops and other things on his games that he had Otherwise I don know I think I picked up a lot of it just from playing on my own One game that I kind of grew up playing is Terminator 2 which you kind of have to do the thing on to get a replay You have to lock the balls, get the jackpots. And I just kept playing. And my dad, of course, his dad had a Gottlieb Pioneer, old 1976 EM game, Spirit of 76, same game. And he taught me, well, if you hit these targets, you get double bonus. you get these lights, you get extra ball. And that was kind of all I needed to be like, whoa, there's goals, there's rules. This is cool. Growing up in Seattle, of course, that pioneer game and having access to a lot of machines, some people listening might not have that kind of access. So can you think of one machine that would be beneficial for someone to maybe learn their skills and really become a great pinball player? Yeah, I mean, I would say, like I said, Terminator 2 or Dracula. Dracula, that was another game I had growing up early. One of the first games we bought was a Dracula. Basically any of those games, those Bally Williams games that have very, very clear goals and punish you for not doing the goals, I think are great learning tools. Speaking of learning tools, if you were to teach someone who's really interested in pinball, maybe they're getting into competitions, best single tip you could give a new player? I would say just have a plan, whether or not, you know, you think you're going to do the plan. It doesn't matter. Any plan is better than no plan. You know, know that you're going to go for X, Y, or Z, you know, multi-ball this, that, and just kind of focus and try to have a plan going into every ball. Now, you're different than the other three major winners that we talked to because, you know, when a new game comes out, they have to dissect it. You kind of make the rules in some of these new games, but there are some that you come across that you're seeing for the first time. How do you dissect a new game? Yeah, I got to admit, I'm not as up on the times. You know, I don't totally go as in-depth as I maybe used to when I was younger.
    27:15
    I just, it takes a lot of time to learn all that stuff. And I still will love to, like if people want to talk to me, and that's kind of how I learn a lot of rules, is just asking questions. You know, how does this work? How did I get that? why was that worth so many points? But I still forget things. I famously forgot the add-a-ball on Jaws in the Final Four at Papa. I forgot it existed. The commentator's like, oh, he's probably doing something. It's like, nope, I just forgot.
    27:42
    You've been to so many great tournaments. You've been all over the world. Is there a favorite tournament? Favorite tournament? Oh, man. I mean, it's hard to beat Indisc. I'm partial to the Northwest Pinball Champs because it's kind of my home tournament, kind of the one I grew up on. Jermaine runs it and always does a stellar job. And all those Seattle people, they put in a ton of work, and I'm always amazed what they can do with just the little bowling alley they have there. It's really great. Out of the five majors, and it's nice to have five again here in 2024, what is the hardest one to win? No bias, be honest.
    28:18
    The hardest major to win would probably be Pinberg just because, you know, four-game finals with all eras, and even getting to finals is, you can't just keep trying. You know, you only get, I mean, you get 40 games, but if you ever looked at the Pinberg standings, it's like four points between, like, bye and out. So it's very cutthroat. Yeah, so I'd probably have to say Pinberg, but that can always change, you know. I'm starting to think I got a little lucky with Worlds because I don't know if I could beat these kids head-to-head anymore. At least in the group match play, things can kind of fall your way. You can kind of win one game by a little bit and then kind of coast the other two games. But a best-of-seven is going to be real tough, so that might be the hardest one to win now. We're prying the keys away from Josh Sharp. You get to run the IFBA for one day. You get to change one rule. What would it be? Ooh. Only one, he says in this one. One rule. I don't know. I maybe would put more emphasis on length of games or types of games or setups so it's not just raw number of games. I don't know how you would do it, but maybe certain vetted majors can just automatically get 200% TGP, even if they don't play that many games, as long as they're vetted and official. That way they could set up the games. Maybe you only play one game finals, but they're set up so they take an hour and a half. Just a tournament like that every once in a while. I'm not saying every tournament should be a grind fest, but I'm just saying it'd be interesting if you could deviate from the TGP strict formula. But I get it. It's a formula for a reason, and it's very objective, and it's very cool the whole system they have going. Okay, life on the line. One game. You get to pick any game. You've got to win it. What's the game? Simpsons Pinball Party. Really? Let's go. I don't know. Actually, maybe Black Rose. Black Rose or Simpsons. Those are the ones I was thinking. Yeah. Those are my two favorite games. Conversely, you get to throw one game that you never have to see in a tournament ever again. And this might be difficult knowing where you work, but what is the answer? It's not that it's a bad game. or just you don't want to see it in tournaments?
    30:45
    I mean, I don't really like seeing monsters, you know, something like, you know, for the newer game, I mean. But for some older games, there's also some classics that I'm not a fan of where it's all about just kind of grinding and keeping, there's no, like, shots. Like, you just have to stay alive. Like, hot hand is just total garbage, you know, stuff like that.
    31:09
    That's why Pimberg's so tough to win. Okay, I'm only asking you this question. Why are the young people dominating so much?
    31:16
    I think they have just everything, right? The reflexes, the rules, the time to put into it. Their mindset is probably better, you know. They're just focused and more confident, you know.
    31:33
    It's just something about being a kid, you know. You're just kind of discovering everything and just going at it. And just natural talents. I don't know. A combination of everything. The endurance. It gets so hard when you get older, I'll tell you that. And they can just go and go and go. Yes. Yeah. Totally endurance.
    31:54
    Yeah, they never let off the gas pedal. They'll just keep going and just crushing it, you know, putting huge scores. You know, at Papa, I put in five qualifying games, and I was, like, pretty darn happy with them. And it was, like, 10th. I'm like, wow, okay, so if you want to be top four, you've got to have just five blow-up games. It was almost like an unlimited qualifying format, but you had to have five of them in a row. It was nuts. Well, when it was all done and the dust settled, you won that big championship, your third major. Best of luck for the rest of the year and defending that title next year. Thank you very much, Jeff. Appreciate it. We just heard from Raymond Davidson. Now it's Escher Lefkoff, the two-time defending EPC major champ. And you had to relinquish that, Papa, long championship reign to Raymond, but you weren't giving up EPC. It was so close, Papa.
    32:50
    Yeah, there was a lot of shots there I wish I made, but mostly on the ball one and two. But EPC went great. I played really well. The tournament was really challenging for many, many different reasons. and yeah, it was a really close match with Arvid. It was a shame it wasn't streamed, but yeah, number four. Number four, congratulations. That's something, and three different ones, also impressive. Yeah, I know you were close at Pimberg too, second place there. Yeah, Pimberg wasn't that close, unfortunately. Jason was in kill mode. The one way I would have had a chance is if I played Jumping Jack better, but that was the first time I had played it all weekend, and I'm not very good at that game. So jumping jack was my critical error. But I played the other two games well. That's how I got second. But I didn't regret many decisions on that finals because I felt like Jason had it in lockdown. Before we get to the same questions we're asking all the major winners, what is going on with you in Australia? When is that happening? Is that happening? So it's pretty much happening. It'll be right after Expo. I'm just going to move out there.
    33:57
    Got a job lined up. My girlfriend's there. I have a lot of friends out there. Kind of life. And honestly, getting away from pinball for a while so I can focus on my actual life. Because, you know, I'm 21. I got a lot of years ahead of me. Pinball will always be there. But I've been living kind of in between pinball tournaments for the last couple of years. And just having an excuse to take a break for a bit will be nice. I'm going to try and make some more pinball content. And I think I'm going to stream more wherever I can in Australia. I am. And yeah, I think I think it'll be good for my life. Not so much for my pinball career. But like you say, at 21, there's a lot of pinball left. Oh, yeah. I got I got I got a lot of time left for a lot of things. I can't imagine the grind. And even I don't even know what it's like for you and Jason inside your head, you know, going back and forth between number one and and just the separation between everyone else. I mean, it's great to be number one, but you have to really work at it. Yeah, it takes an immense amount of travel and time and effort to maintain, especially because so far this year, basically all the tournaments that we haven't played, one of us has won. And I think we're pretty much 50-50 on the year. Jason beat me at the two majors, but I got the Beast against him, I got Northwest, Pimel Champs against him, I got a missing one more. But I have beat him a few times head-to-head, but when it mattered, he's gotten me this year, and I think that's why he was so far ahead. And that's kind of like why I snuck out to EPC to play all five majors in a year, which is, I don't recommend it. That's a lot of pinball, a lot of traveling. So describe the EPC. What was the hardest thing about winning that event? The hardest thing was the jet lag and being tired. Day one, I slept, or night one, I slept three hours on the plane, and I made it until that night. And I only slept like five or six hours that night. Played the next day, slept six hours the next day. And I woke up at 5 a.m., couldn't get back to sleep because of the jet lag, and I went to bed at 3.30 after playing. And that's when I played my match against Timber. And, you know, with the night sleep before, it just, like, wasn't fun. It was just the amount of... You can only drink so much Red Bull. Yeah, I actually had two Monsters, three Red Bulls, and two cups of coffee that day. And I swear that's probably the closest in my life I've been to having a heart attack. You can feel the blood that go through your veins, can't you? Yeah, and it's just like caffeine that kept me going. I literally went underneath a demo man and slept. There's a picture of me sleeping underneath a demo man because the floor there was tile, so it wasn't concrete. so it didn't hurt as much to lay down on. And, you know, Demo Man's a super wide body, so it blocked out most of the light.
    36:52
    Hey, some of us have fallen asleep waiting to play games that you're on, so turnabout's fair play. Questions I'm asking everyone, I think I know the answer. Who taught you the most? My dad, clearly. And I bet Jason has the same answer as me.
    37:07
    And Z-Mac might have the same answer of my dad. But, yeah, my dad's been in my life the whole time. He was really good when I grew up. He was friends with everyone. He was friends with Keith Lyman, Neil Schatz, Owen, everyone else. He was friends with and he would teach me the right way from the get-go. I loved playing and I loved getting better, so it just worked out great. And even now, he's still mostly on the mental side, not so much on the rules and skills.
    37:38
    Now not everyone has the same access that you have had to machines so when you trying to tell a player okay i think this machine is the best to learn maybe rules maybe skills what would that one machine be for someone who maybe is looking for their first yeah uh these days in the states uh if you're listening in the states it's uh it's much easier to find any modern stern and honestly i don't think it matters what modern stern as long as you just feel like you've mastered a game um if you get good enough at one game where every single flip that you do has purpose like you have an idea you have a plan then learning the other games isn't as bad it feels very daunting like all these games and all these different rules but the moment you master one you're like oh okay this is kind of like ninja multiball on deadpool but on this game like oh you know this is kind of like blank on jurassic park like there's a lot of things that carry over between games that are very similar and the moment you just master one either you own the game or like your local bar has one or your arcade working from there is much easier is there a flipper tip or skill that you would recommend somebody for the best the most important thing to learn first yeah just learn how to drop catch which is you hold the flipper up balls come in and then right when it touches the flipper you drop it you will see me do it more than any other skill i guess that's kind of like my my thing my play and uh yeah it's getting control it's all right well so that's not even about getting control that's just like making it easier to make your next shot like you can be a very flow on the fly player and just drop catch like crazy like people like andre vassinkoff who's known for being very flow oriented he drop catches all the time.
    39:22
    But the biggest thing, just learn how to drop catch and stop dead bouncing. Stop dead bouncing? Yeah, dead bouncing is, when you think about it... You're guessing the speed, you're guessing the flipper rubbers, there's all kinds of factors. There's so many things, and a lot of the times a dead bounce is safe, but it gets you in trouble a lot more than I think people think. Especially tight slings? Yeah, tight slings or anything. It's just like, if you dead bounce, you'll get in trouble. Or you could just drop catch and work it out from there. Drop catch works every time. Dead bouncing works most of the time. If you want to be consistent, you need that every time. And you need to be good enough at the game to be able to do those scary skills every single time. So if you're at home and you've got a game, learn the drop catch. That's it. Just drop catch. When a new machine comes out, how do you dissect it? Is it reading? Is it playing? Yeah, so I have this really complicated method on how I learn new games. what I do is I open up Discord and I shoot a message to Zach McCarthy and I ask him, what do I do? And then he will tell me. And then I will play it and do what he tells me. And now I've mastered the game.
    40:30
    Very, very complicated stuff, I know. But how I used to learn games is I would just get time on it. I'd play a few things. Naturally, just because of how many games I've learned, I feel like I kind of get drawn to the best value stuff in my first couple games. and usually I just like, wow, this is pretty good. And so I go after that and that becomes my tournament strat until otherwise. Code changes so much on games. Like John Wick, for me, I haven't really bothered learning a complete plan yet. Because it's going to change. I want to learn the version that when it matters, not all the other versions until it matters. You see things get nerfed, you see different strats change. Yeah, exactly. New modes and scoring opportunities. But learning the old games, just watch how the pros play. Go find a stream and watch any of the top players play a game and then just see what their game plan is and just copy it and then make it your own. What's your favorite tournament? My favorite tournament has to be InDisc by far. It's just like everyone goes, everyone's friendly, quality's always really good. it's run by Carl and uh Jim Belcido and DJ and I'm sure I'm missing so many people but it's just like a good time like the tournament has like weird games and the queues can be long but like everyone is there like I talk with people I see once a year there and uh I love all the people on the west coast so much that I think I'm a little biased but just hanging out is uh It's kind of like my favorite thing with pinball. And there's so many tournaments, and you have to play so good. Games are all set up fair. You know, everything's level. Everything is set up correctly with, you know, good notes and everything. The one tournament I think came very close to this year, which honestly might be my favorite tournament of the year, was actually Northwest.
    42:30
    The game quality and setup and the venue this year was by far the best out of, like, any tournament. The cues weren't that bad. the space was honestly not as bad as i remember it they spread out games a lot more the game setups were like perfect it was just fun to play and i think that's why there were so many entertaining games that came out of it you've won three of the five majors epc winning it twice what of the five is the hardest to win um in disc i think by far i don't i don't really know how i won my in disc it was just like my day uh keith i think it was flash gordon it was awesome yeah and before that it was bad girls and a game i had never played before and there were so many things that just like lined up perfectly for me to win that that i think honestly for me that will be the hardest and or not for me to be the hardest but i think overall that's the hardest i think for me the hardest to win is by far IFPA. I struggle with head-to-head, especially when I have to pick old, mid, and new. And I just feel like I get close, but I just kind of hit the wall right at the end. And I think breaking through is going to take a lot of time for me. And it's just going to have to be my day on my games that I think I can actually win that one. But that one will be the most challenging one. You've seen a lot of changes in the IFPA. If you can make one change, what would it be? I don't know, man. I don't even know how the current IFPA works. I just go to tournaments and play and make jokes about my efficiency percent. Like, oh no.
    44:09
    For me, this year has been very much a for fun year. I've been just going to tournaments and dictating how much I enjoy it by how much fun I have, if that makes sense. I don't care about how I play. It's just, did I have fun this weekend? And honestly, the IFPA doesn't change much for me, but I'm in a very, you know, unique situation where, like, I will never have to worry about qualifying for IFPA or Epstein. I'm really far ahead in first or second. And, yeah, honestly, I think the changes need to be more focused on the people in the top 100 from, like, 25 to, like, let's call it, like, 150, right? I think that's where IFPA needs to really focus on having fair tournaments and having fair rankings. Because the top people are always going to beat the top. It doesn't matter. But making sure everyone else in the top 100 has a good ranking experience, I think that's what they really need to focus on. Life on the line. You get to choose one game. You're not afraid to play anybody. What's the game?
    45:15
    Jurassic Park. I'm really, really good at that game. mostly because I'm really good at Raptor Multiball and I'm really good at all the modes. I can almost feel like I can play that game blindfolded. Everything I know in the game, every scoring opportunity, the progress I'm making, every nuance of backdoor rule, I feel like I've truly mastered that game more than anything else. And if you play me on mine at home, I'm not losing to you.
    45:44
    I can say that about any game, though. you have the power to remove one machine, you'll never ever see it at a tournament again. What would it be? It's not that it's a bad game, it's just you never want to see the tournament. Oh, AIQ for sure. If I could go through my life and I never have to play Jason Zahler on AIQ ever again, that would improve my life. When I saw I was in the bank here, I was really sad. And then I played it, I'm like, wow, this thing plays not great. Like the flippers are kind of soggy and some of the shots don't work very well. surely Jason won't like it. And then Jason got $3 billion. So that has sold me on this idea that I never, ever want to play that game against Jason. I like the game. I just don't like it like he does. When I talk to people about pinball rankings and things and stuff, they're like, oh, the old guys must do great. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's the young guys that are really good. Why is it that young players are so excellent at pinball? Dude, I don't know. I was qualifying in UK Open. I was in fifth place, and I looked at the top eight, and there was one person older than me in the top eight, and it was Craig Pullen. And then the next oldest was me. And then it was like Timber, the two Swedish kids, Zach McCarthy, and it's like Paul Engler. And it's like, oh my God, like I'm 21 and I'm already kind of the old man of the kids. Like I'm the oldest of the kids. Me and Jared August are almost, he's five years, oh sorry, five days younger than me, or older than me. And Alexander Kismarchek is like a full year. But besides that, it's like, I'm like the old man now. It's just the kids are willing to learn. They don't have bad habits. They just get into it and they want to be the best and they learn the best. They don't like bashing their head against the wall doing the same thing over and over again. If they can adapt to get better, they're like, yeah, let's change my entire gameplay. And they're capable of doing that. Old people, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, which is not true. right you'll see the old people adapt but it takes a lot more like like you have to push them to do that right a lot of people are happy with mediocrity in pinball and they're like oh you know i make the cut every time but you know i never win or you know i got the top four once but like to actually be able to consistently win you need to change your game to play correctly and you do get worse before you get better and i think a lot of the kids are okay with that Now, it's a very elite group, people that have won majors. People are knocking on the door. Who's the next person to win their first major?
    48:21
    That's a hard question. I think the very, very much so obvious answer is Vigo. It's weird that he hasn't won one yet, right? Arvid's won one. He won EPC two years ago. Yeah, he won EPC two years ago, and he got second to me at EPC this year, and he got second at IFPA. So, like, Arvid has a lot of, like, he does well in Final Four, but Vigo is, like, a terrifying beast in the early rounds. But it's just, like, something happens in the Final Four where he just doesn't quite play. He still plays exceptional, but he doesn't have that, like, killer instinct yet to win tournaments. And I suspect Vigo, all right, we're recording this on Saturday. Classics, hasn't it? He's winning two out of three this weekend. He's determined. Yeah, I'm going to win the other one.
    49:13
    All right. Well, thanks very much. Good luck here at the UK Open. Thank you. Good luck to you as well. We hope you enjoyed the episode. Coming up in the next few weeks, two special episodes. One, a sit-down with John Norris, legendary designer. And early in the new year, you'll hear my top 10 most intriguing people of 2024. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We're on Twitter and X at pinballprofile, a great Facebook group as well. You can email pinballprofile at gmail.com. And if you'd like to show your support on Patreon, don't worry, the show will always be free, but it helps keep the show going. So thank you so much to Nick N, Tony V, Bart V, Stefan R, Erica's Pinball Journey, Fox City's Pinball, and so many others. We really appreciate it. Patreon.com slash pinballprofile. Hope you enjoy the rest of the holidays. I'm Jeff Teolas.
    50:05
    The power of feeling is what you're feeling. You got to believe. That you're simply the best.