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Pinball Industry News: June 2019 Re-cap

Pinball News & Pinball Magazine Pincast·podcast_episode·1h 9m·analyzed·Jul 1, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.040

TL;DR

June 2019 industry recap: Willy Wonka shipping, new games in production, Stern expanding.

Summary

Jonathan Houston (Pinball Magazine) and Martin Ebb (Pinball News) recap June 2019 pinball industry news. Key developments include Jersey Jack Pinball shipping Willy Wonka Standard Edition and announcing Limited/Collector editions, Suncoast Pinball beginning production and shipping their first game, confirmation of a third Elvira game for October release, Stern announcing a major brand contract game and home game revival, and physical/code enhancements to Black Knight Sword of Rage. Discussion covers market dynamics, operator vs. collector sales splits, and the emerging challenge of game saturation.

Key Claims

  • Jersey Jack Pinball began shipping Willy Wonka Standard Edition games in June 2019

    high confidence · Opening headline; Jack posted shipping video on his lawn. Timeline: announced April (Texas Pinball Festival), shipping June = ~2 months.

  • Willy Wonka Limited Edition shipping will occur in July 2019, Collector Edition in early autumn/fall

    high confidence · Direct statement by speakers confirming JJP's stated timeline

  • Suncoast Pinball has started production and shipped its first game; targeting 250 total units

    high confidence · Martin Ebb reports they posted updates on Facebook; game features artwork by Dirty Donnie, simpler rule set inspired by early 1990s games

  • Cassandra Peterson (Elvira) confirmed third Elvira pinball game will be available by October 2019, targeting Halloween release

    high confidence · Cassandra Peterson confirmed on her own website; referenced as tight timeline for October-to-consumer shipment

  • Stern is developing a contract game for a 'very big brand' with two design options available: Bonelli or Spider-Man Home Edition design

    high confidence · Gary Stern interview on Head to Head Pinball podcast; designers choosing between two existing game designs to re-theme

  • Stern is working on a new home pinball game, continuing efforts to enter the retail consumer market

    medium confidence · General discussion of Stern's home game strategy; previous Spider-Man home edition was unsuccessful; current effort targets Amazon shipping constraints

  • Gary Stern and Doug Skoll conducted international business tours; Gary visited Europe and Asia to meet business partners

    high confidence · Martin Ebb reports Doug was in Europe at least a week; Gary flew to Asia afterward for business relations

  • Stern announced a 'last call' final production run for Batman 66 Catwoman Signature Edition

    high confidence · Following Catwoman edition announcement, Stern declared Batman 66 final run (possibly due to license expiration in 3-5 year cycle)

Notable Quotes

  • “There haven't actually been any new game announcements, I don't think. Or any major new products. But everybody's basically progressing towards production and shipping of their respective titles.”

    Martin Ebb @ Early in episode — Sets tone: June 2019 was productive but not announcement-heavy; industry focused on execution rather than reveal of new titles

  • “It's nice to outperform expectations. Jersey Jack is cutting the time difference between announcing the game and shipping it... March to June is a little over two months.”

    Martin Ebb / Jonathan Houston @ Mid-episode — Signals improvement in JJP's production-to-shipping timeline; April announcement to June shipping was faster than expected

  • “To have a game being put to the attention of roughly 80 million people [via Kourtney Kardashian social media post of Wizard of Oz], that's not bad. It's good for the company and good for pinball in general.”

    Jonathan Houston @ Social media section — Highlights mainstream cultural crossover and organic reach; Kardashian family endorsement as unintentional but significant marketing

  • “The problem I think right now with the market is that most games are being sold to collectors. The operator market... it's gone from an arcade culture to a bar and barcade type use of machines.”

    Jonathan Houston @ Market analysis section — Identifies key market shift: modern operator base is barcades/bars, not traditional arcades; challenges traditional arcade locations (Chuck E. Cheese, Dave & Buster's) not yet buying pinball

  • “If you're going to spend $4,000 on a pinball machine then you might as well just get a real pinball machine. Why would you get a toy?”

    Jonathan Houston @ Home game discussion — Challenges Stern's home game strategy; skepticism about $4,000 retail price point for consumer pinball machines; questions fundamental market assumption

  • “I rather would see that Stern would actually use the time and money spent on the development of such a home product and actually start looking into how to get more games on location which would actually reach more people.”

    Jonathan Houston — Suggests Stern's efforts would be better spent on location/operator market expansion rather than home consumer product development

Entities

Jonathan HoustonpersonMartin EbbpersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyWilly Wonka and the Chocolate FactorygameJack DangerpersonSuncoast PinballcompanyDirty DonniepersonStern Pinball

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern leadership (Gary Stern and Doug Skoll) conducted sustained international business development tours: Doug in Europe for 1+ week, Gary traveled to Asia afterward. Signals expansion of overseas distribution and operator partnerships.

    high · Martin Ebb: 'Gary Stern and Doug Skoll have been busy... touring Europe... Doc was there for at least a week... I think Gary even flew along and went to Asia after that.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Jack Danger used streaming format to announce and demonstrate Black Knight Sword of Rage code updates and physical enhancements. Ongoing use of social media/video for transparent design communication.

    high · Martin Ebb: 'Jack Danger did a stream where the new code was revealed as well as the physical enhancements were shown and explained.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Market saturation concern: multiple manufacturers producing games (Stern ~6,000/year speculated) but unclear where all machines are going or if market is expanding proportionally. Existing machines not depreciating significantly despite potential over-supply.

    medium · Jonathan Houston: 'If Stern are making... let's say they're making 6,000 machines a year. Where are they all going? ... We seem to keep pumping more and more machines into the market... Is the market really expanding that much?'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Emerging trend toward simpler rule sets: Suncoast Pinball designed with early 1990s-style rules complexity rather than modern 37-mode structure. Hosts had predicted this trend and see it as response to player complexity fatigue.

    high · Jonathan Houston: 'It's more like a throwback towards the early 90s... It's less complex than that. So that's possibly a good sign.' Hosts earlier 'predicted that, actually, for this year' and 'hoped for it.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.209

0:00
willy wonka now shipping cosmic carnival in production lots of smaller news items hi my name is jonathan houston from pinball magazine and i'm here with martin ebb from pinball news and we're here to discuss with you the uh the news the pinball industry news of June 2019. And it's been quite busy, but no real big announcements, but lots of progress, shall we say, for various companies. Big and small, from established and startups. Right, so lots of items to cover.
0:51
But it's good to see that everybody is busy and productive. Yeah. There haven't actually been any new game announcements, I don't think.
1:05
Or any major new products. But everybody's basically progressing towards production and shipping of their respective titles. There's been some further development as well, which we're going to cover in this special free bonus podcast. What's so bonus about it? It's bonus because without it you wouldn't have it Fair enough Okay so I guess the biggest Well yeah I'm not sure whether it's the biggest but it was the first Headline Jersey Jack Pinball Has started shipping Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory Standard Edition games Yes that's right They're doing the Standard Edition games Now the what's coming next I think the limited and then the collectors oh yes that's right because the collectors is the highest end one isn't it so yes so limited editions will be this month now in July and collectors editions coming sometime after that in the early autumn or fall depending on what you call it Yeah, but it's interesting because there was quite a bit of uncertainty whether Willy Wonka was on the line at Jersey Jack or not. Obviously, it takes a little bit of time for the company to switch in between games, because they have to change the whole line so that every station has a sample of the product that they need in front of it, So the people working there know what is to be done at that station to the playfield that's passing along and all that kind of stuff. So that takes a little bit of time. So there were conflicting reports. Some were saying, yes, Willy Wonka is on the line. And then others were saying, no, it's not.

  • Black Knight Sword of Rage Limited and Premium editions received new code and physical enhancements: plastic protectors and upper playfield post to improve ball action

    high confidence · Jack Danger streamed showing new code and physical enhancements; modification uses existing playfield holes, targets improved upper playfield action

  • Stern announced a final vinyl release of the Black Knight Sword of Rage soundtrack; Steve Ritchie announced at Pintastic

    high confidence · Fresh announcement at Pintastic seminar; will be Stern's second album on vinyl release

    • @ Home game critique

  • “They're trying to create a market that doesn't exist at the moment, which is the ideal situation for them, as long as they don't undermine their existing sales.”

    Martin Ebb @ Home game strategy — Balanced perspective: home game market expansion is speculative but potentially valuable if it captures new customers without cannibalizing collector sales

  • “I take the last call [announcement]. If Stern is announcing a last call for a production run, I take that with a grain of salt. We've seen a last call type of situation for Metallica as well, and they kept on making those games anyway.”

    Jonathan Houston @ Batman 66 discussion — Skepticism about Stern's 'final run' declarations; history of continuing production despite last-call announcements (Metallica example)

  • “Stern sending out a physical enhancement... I can't recall Stern sending out something that actually physically changes the game. That doesn't happen very often, if ever.”

    Jonathan Houston @ Black Knight enhancement discussion — Highlights rarity of Stern issuing mid-production physical modifications; Black Knight upper playfield post is unusual customer service measure

  • “Jack Danger did a stream where the new code was revealed as well as the physical enhancements were shown and explained... it's a little more like the action you would get on the Black Knight 2000 upper playfield.”

    Martin Ebb @ Black Knight code/hardware update — Community engagement via streamed announcements; design philosophy callbacks to classic Black Knight 2000 for legitimacy and nostalgia

    • company
    Elvira (third game)game
    Cassandra Petersonperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Doug Skollperson
    Black Knight Sword of Ragegame
    Batman 66game
    Steve Ritchieperson
    Jack Dangerperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Head to Head Pinballorganization
    Kourtney Kardashianperson
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Pintasticevent
  • ?

    licensing_signal: Batman 66 final production run likely triggered by license expiration in 3-5 year cycle. Stern's 'last call' announcement typical of licensing contract termination.

    medium · Jonathan Houston: 'Could also have to do with the license expiring, because usually those licenses are for three- to five-year deals, I think, could be very reasonable to, I think the three-year term would be up right now.'

  • $

    market_signal: Shift in operator base from traditional arcades to barcades/bars. Major family entertainment centers (Chuck E. Cheese, Dave & Buster's) not yet purchasing pinball despite potential volume opportunity.

    high · Jonathan Houston: 'The operator market... it's gone from an arcade culture... to a bar and barcade type use of machines... if you look like locations like Chuck E. Cheese or Dave and Buster's I don't think they're into pinball yet at all.'

  • $

    market_signal: Mainstream pop culture crossover: Kourtney Kardashian (79M Instagram followers, 15M Facebook followers) posted unplanned/organic photo of herself playing Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road, reaching ~80M people total. Represents significant free marketing reach to non-pinball audience.

    high · Jonathan Houston: 'To have a game being put to the attention of roughly 80 million people, that's not bad... good for the company and good for pinball in general.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Jack Danger (JJP founder) made 24-hour international trip to Germany for Willy Wonka launch event, flying in for event and flying back same day. Demonstrates commitment to brand visibility and customer engagement despite personal inconvenience.

    high · Jonathan Houston: 'Jack was i think he was even less than 24 hours in Germany. They flew him in. He attended the event. He slept for a couple of hours, went back to the airport, and was back on a plane.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pinball improved production-to-shipping timeline from announcement to delivery: Willy Wonka announced in April 2019 at Texas Pinball Festival, Standard Edition shipping June 2019 (~2 months turnaround). Represents acceleration vs. historical timelines.

    high · Martin Ebb and Jonathan Houston discuss April announcement to June shipping as 'quite good' and 'even better than expected'; Jack Danger posted shipping video on company lawn.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern issued rare physical modification to Black Knight Sword of Rage: upper playfield post and plastic protectors for Limited/Premium editions. Represents unusual mid-production hardware enhancement focused on improving ball action based on player/owner feedback.

    high · Martin Ebb: 'Stern sending out a physical enhancement... I can't recall Stern sending out something that actually physically changes the game. That doesn't happen very often, if ever.' Jack Danger streamed demonstration of new post and modification.

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern home game strategy questioned as addressing non-existent market. Skepticism about $4,000 retail price point and consumer appeal vs. full-size collector machines.

    high · Jonathan Houston: 'I still have a hard time believing that people who are interested in buying a pinball machine would be buying the toy version... if you're going to spend $4,000 on a pinball machine then you might as well just get a real pinball machine.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Keith Elwin rumored as designer of next Stern game announcement, though conflicting reports suggest alternative designer. Unconfirmed speculation about designer identity and upcoming title release.

    low · Jonathan Houston: 'People are expecting a new Stern game to be announced probably any day now where the rumor has it that Keith Elwin's next game would be the one coming out but there's also rumors saying that it will be somebody else's game.'

    • 3:09
    But it must have been on the line. And also, they couldn't have been starting to ship games, which was, I guess, last week.
    3:19
    Jack posted a video which was a little bit similar to the one that he posted a couple of years ago. Outside on the grass, the lawn or whatever you call it, in front of the factory. I was a little bit surprised that he did not do a head roll this time but he sure was happy that Willy Wonka's were shipping before the summer so well good for them that the game is finally shipping and being delivered obviously to customers and locations where people can play it so more people can form an opinion on the game. Yes, absolutely. And I think they are progressing towards, well, they are cutting the time difference between announcing the game and shipping it. It's not at the same time, not coincidental, with announcing and being available, but that was, what, three months, I suppose, from the game being announced or being revealed in March. So that's March to April, May, June. Not over April, actually. Was it? Yeah, it was April. Even better.
    4:36
    Well, yes, it would have been after Texas, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. In France and Midwest gaming. Yeah. Yes. That was the second week of April that the game got shown for the first time. So that's a little over two months, I would say.
    4:53
    Yeah, that's quite good. Texas is definitely making progress even better than I thought. Right. So you should really raise your expectations on Jack. Come on, Mark. well yeah nice it's nice to out uh outperform yeah but there was other news regarding dirty jack as well um speaking of uh impressive things um jack visited uh germany uh to be precise freddy's pinball paradise um for just a 24-hour visit so jack was i think he was even less than 24 hours in Germany. They flew him in. He attended the event. He slept for a couple of hours, went back to the airport, and was back on a plane.
    5:44
    And probably back in time to be at church. Which was? For Sunday morning. Sorry, you were saying? Do you know what the event was? They actually flew over. Was it a Willy Wonka launch party? Yes. It was. Yes. Okay. And that was quite well attended as well, so good for them and good for Jack to travel half the world for an event of a couple of hours.
    6:15
    And what's also interesting, if you're a little bit into social media or not have been living under a rock, apparently the Kardashian family are very popular. And Courtney Kardashian, who is, I guess, one of them, she shared a photo on her social media of her playing Wizard of Oz, the Yellow Brick Road edition. and now understand that she has a following on i think uh on on facebook it's like 15 million and 79 million followers on on instagram who look at all these pictures and whatever she's posting there so that's a huge um plug for jersey jack i would say uh even if for those people seeing that photo is like, oh, nice, he's playing pinball. Nice. And that's about it, short attention span and you know all that. But still, to have a game being put to the attention of, well, roughly 80 million people, that's not bad. Yeah, it's good for the company and good for pinball in general, one would think, in boosting pinball's reach to the sort of people who wouldn't necessarily have any interaction with the game. Yeah. And in the Pinball Magazine newsletter that I will be sending out tomorrow, I will be including three observations by Gary Flower on that particular photo, things that I thought it was very interesting of him to notice. And so I figured I'd include those in the newsletter that will go out tomorrow. Yes, I saw that photo, and it was, I think, shared on Facebook by a good friend of mine, and I think of ours, of Łukasz from Poland, who quite often will post interesting pictures of people playing pinball, mostly women, in various states of undress. And I just thought it was another one of those, so to show how much I know that there was actually Kourtney Kardashian, the famous Internet influencer who I'd never heard of, but didn't know what she looked like. But now I do. Well, in all fairness, I wouldn't be able to tell one Kardashian from the other, wouldn't be able to name them properly either. So, yes, there are people still living on the rocks that have no clue what the Kardashians are or what they're about. But on the other side, I think I do have an interesting life of my own, so why bother with someone else's?
    9:16
    Okay, fair enough. That's enough of that kind of social media interaction. Right. Let's get back to real pinball. rather than people pretending to play pinball, and move on to what's happening down in Florida with Suncoast Pinball. Yes. And there's been some news from them this month. Yes.
    9:41
    I must say they are doing a very good job at keeping people informed through Facebook and possibly also other social media, but I notice mostly on Facebook. so they're posting videos or small updates and so on and the good news is that not only did they start production but they even shipped out their first game to its customer or whoever is getting it, I'm assuming it's a customer so that's good news for them and it will be interesting to see how big this production will end up being. I think they are planning to build 250 games, but I have no clue whether they actually sold 250 games. They're still pushing very hard for people to make a purchase, so that tells me that they haven't sold all 250 yet. yeah they they um haven't as you say they've been very good at promoting on online but um i think that people would want to get their hands on a finished game and and try it before committing to buying it so certainly these days after having uh people being caught out in various ways with purchasing blind or pre-ordering games i think it's a lot more wariness in the market now so yeah I think that once the game starts appearing at shows towards the autumn I think people will be in a better position to make a decision whether it's for them or not but yeah if you're obviously I do have to say the game looks very good mostly because of the artwork by Dirty Donnie yeah I think Donnie did a great deal great job with that it really gives a feel to the game which we've probably been lacking otherwise because it's not immediately obvious I guess from the title what the game's about but you can pick up a lot of it from the mixture of the artwork on the game cabinet and the promotional videos which Suncoast have been putting out yeah so in one of those they sort of explained some of the modes in the game all in all I'd say It appeals to me to be not as complex as some of the games that we've seen lately, but it's more like a throwback towards the early 90s, I would say, in terms of rules. So you don't have to finish 37 modes before you get to a wizard mode and all that kind of stuff. It's less complex than that. So that's possibly a good sign. That was the impression I got. And it sort of follows a trend that we've been seeing, I think, isn't it? We predicted that, actually, for this year. Well, yeah. Well, we'd hoped for it. Oh, yeah. Certainly. And sometimes wishes do come true, I guess. But we were certainly not bemoaning but suggesting that simpler or slightly more easy to understand games might be the way to go in order to bring people back into pinball who got pretty much overwhelmed by, as you say, the 37 modes that you have to play before you can get to the next level. Right. So it will be interesting to see the integration with the video screen and the music and the call-outs and everything, because obviously this is an original theme, so we have no idea what the characters will sound like and how they interact with the player and with gameplay and all that kind of stuff. And, although it's possibly not the most important part of a game design, it certainly is important, as if it's not appealing to people, then it's just going to hurt sales. and I guess we're now in a pinball industry climate, if you wish, where basically if people don't like your game,
    13:56
    they're not going to buy it out of pity for you because they want you to sell your game. No. You make a game that they want to buy, and if they don't like it, they don't buy it. Yeah, there are enough other choices out there that nobody, I think, needs to feel pressured into buying any particular game for fear of missing out or not being able to buy something with the money that's burning a hole in their pocket. There's always something out there to get. And I was actually pondering that actually a little earlier today. I was thinking about, you know, we don't seem to be ever losing any machines. Now, apart from a few disasters here and there, most of the time all the pinballs that have been made certainly recently are still around and all that's happening is we're adding more and more with every new release that comes out so does that mean that people's collections are getting bigger does that mean that more people are getting into the the business and the hobby or is there a glut of machines sort of lying around somewhere that people aren't buying.
    15:07
    Because if Stern are making, I don't know, let's pick a number out of the air because we don't have any real figures. Let's say they're making 6,000 machines a year.
    15:18
    Where are they all going? Or what's happening to the games that they're replacing? The prices don't seem to be coming down with there being a huge number of machines that are going unsold. So there must be a big demand for all these, but where?
    15:35
    Well, to a certain degree, these games go to barcades and that kind of locations, and a lot of home collectors. And obviously, it would be interesting to see how long a game lasts in someone's collection, because obviously, some games last for less than two weeks, and then people are sick of it and sell it or put it up for sale. And other games are keepers that people don't want to part with. Sure, but if they sell it, where does it go? It goes to another collector. Right, so they're increasing their collection size or are they bumping another machine out of their collection? And where does that go? So effectively, you know, we seem to keep pumping more and more machines into the market from multiple manufacturers now. But is the market really expanding that much?
    16:36
    Yeah, well, first of all, let's hope so. Yeah, a grave it is. Yeah, the problem I think right now with the market is that most games are being sold to collectors. I think the operator market has been sort of interested in pinball, I would say, but it's not the operators that were operating pinballs 30 years ago.
    17:06
    No, it's gone from an arcade culture, I think, very much to a bar and barcade type use of machines, as well as a few sort of specialist large clubs and family entertainment centers It certainly not a sort of street arcade with a bunch of video games and half a dozen pinballs anymore Well, it's very interesting to see that, as far as I know at least. obviously yes there's the barcades that have dozens and dozens of pinballs for people to go there, the specialist specialized barcades I would say but if you look like locations like Chuck E. Cheese or Dave and Buster's I don't think they're into pinball yet at all while if these locations would be actually getting back into pinball I would say then And that would definitely help the market quite a bit, I would say. Yeah, without wishing to get too much off track. I think those type of locations are all into redemption games, aren't they, really? Yeah. And kids winning tickets, and all the pinballs tried that a few times. I don't think it's ever really got much traction. Well, possibly that has to do with the games being designed to be a pinball machine, not a redemption game. I think if you would actually design a pinball redemption game for that market, it could actually be successful, but so far nobody's ever tried that. Well, Williams did with Ticket-Tacto. True, which is actually a rather fun game to play, I have to say. Yeah, it is. I'm not sure it was very successful, though. No, I think they made less than 100 from the top of my head, so don't quote me on that, but I might be wrong, but that's the figure that I sort of remember. Anyway, we diverged a little there Yeah From the point where we were talking about Are we still on Suncoast? I've forgotten by now Yeah, well, Suncoast and where all these games are going That's how we digress More games Being manufactured And moving on One of the games that got Confirmed again Was the third Elvira game which is scheduled to be out in the open I would say in October of this year.
    19:49
    Yeah, I think the intention is for it to be in people's homes or on the street by Halloween. That's the intention, by the end of October. Yeah, Cassandra Peterson Elvira confirmed on her own website, I think it was, that her third pinball game will be available by October.
    20:08
    Personally, I was thinking October is a little late. It should really be September. Because you never know what happens. And if there's just like two weeks to start shipping games to distributors and they have to get them to people's homes before Halloween, I'm not sure whether that's a very big time window, I would say. so that it's interesting where it sits in the release schedule for Stern because they normally have a new game released at the beginning of January which they can then show at Comic Con or the trade show in Europe trade shows in Europe and so if they're doing one in October, does that mean they're going to have anything between or probably announce it in October for shipping? People are expecting a new Stern game to be announced probably any day now where the rumor has it that Keith Elwin's next game would be the one coming out but there's also rumors saying that it will be somebody else's game And interestingly, Gary Stern did an interview with Head to Head Pinball, where he announced that they are also working on a branded game.
    21:45
    Yeah, a contract game. A contract game for a very big brand, so to speak, which is coming out at some point as well. interestingly he also mentioned that they are working with they only have two designs for those games which would basically be the Bonelli design or the Spider-Man Home Edition design which so they will be either receiving well one of these two and personally I don't understand why limits that just to these two games I mean, they could pick any design that they did.
    22:31
    You know, I mean, if you're talking about a re-seam, then you have to address the code anyway. So why not take, I don't know, World Poker Tour or something older?
    22:43
    Yeah, true. But I suppose it's easier to work with a known or limited number of games that you can do one old, one retro style game, one modern style game. Right. And, of course, the advantage of both those games is that they don't have to spend a huge amount of time developing video assets for them. Because, obviously, Woe Nelly doesn't have any, and Spider-Man has a smaller size color LED display, assuming they stick with that. But on the Supreme game, they replaced that, actually, with a dot matrix. So they had to do all the animations for Dot Matrix.
    23:29
    Yeah, but we know that's a lot simpler than trying to do it for an LCD screen, like a more modern title would be if they chose to re-theme Deadpool or anything like that. Right, okay. Well, fair enough.
    23:45
    I've also heard that they are working on a home game, trying again to bring out a version of... but thank you. Well, it's not for the first time, is it, with the pin, which they've tried in a couple of variations before. Yeah, and then the Spider-Man home game that we just mentioned, which was also very unsuccessful.
    24:11
    Yeah, yeah. I don't know what they've changed and what they think will appeal to the retail market and at which they can sell it at a more reasonable price maybe,
    24:26
    while still not undermining their core sales to collectors. I still have a hard time believing that people who are interested in buying a pinball machine would be buying the toy version of a pinball machine. I mean, let's say Stern would be able to hit the market with a home-style pinball for $4,000 if you're going to spend $4,000 on a pinball machine then you might as well just get a real pinball machine why would you get a toy? Well, absolutely, unless, of course, what they were producing was a title or a theme which wasn't available as a full-size game so if you really, really wanted let's pick a title or a theme we mentioned before the Kardashians pinball for your home and it wasn't available as a operator or premium or LE model then maybe the home edition was the only way you could do that which might appeal but even then, you know, 4000 as a price point that you mentioned seems pretty high and it would need to be quite fully featured really to uh to well in fact i don't think 4000 is a practical price point for a for a sort of box shifter type product you're gonna find in uh costco or best buy or anywhere like that so i think it needs to be cheaper but I think with the PIN previously, the argument why it was redesigned was because Amazon must be able to ship it. So that's what we're keeping in, what designers are basically working with right now. There's structures like, okay, it has to be this size and that weight because else Amazon won't ship it.
    26:27
    Right. And Amazon is the only company that… No, but it's probably one of the bigger outlets where people might be inclined or persuaded to buy such a game.
    26:44
    Yeah, although the problem there always is you're buying sight unseen because you can't go to an Amazon store and try it. So you end up with two issues. one, you get a lot of returns because they're not what people were expecting based on the description.
    27:06
    No, but as a company, Stern don't really deal with that many returns on their... If there's something wrong on their games, they'll try and fix it by sending people out replacement parts or some kind of compensation, like a spare Playfield or something like that, which is obviously something they can do to an Amazon sale. And also they haven't got in place much in the way of a sort of customer care center for dealing with problems with the games.
    27:43
    So that's something they need to set up and deal with. And I'm sure that's why the price of dealing with this stuff is a lot more than you would think or the cost of selling it. There's a lot more than you think it would be compared to selling something to an operator trade, where the operator is a lot more accepting of any potential issues and don't want to send games back. Right. So I'm still surprised that Stern is trying to tap into that home market, because traditionally that market for those home type of games, I would say, basically doesn't exist. Yes, there are collectors who are buying games for their home, but those are pinball enthusiasts. They don't want to buy a toy. They want to buy the real game, and that's what they are doing right now, up to the point where they're paying up to $10,000 for a limited edition or what have you. so it might be a bit harsh of me to say but I rather would see that Stern would actually use the time and money spent on the development of such a home product and actually start looking into how to get more games on location which would actually reach more people than those home games ever will I think they're trying to, as you said, create a market that doesn't exist at the moment, which is the ideal situation for them, as long as they don't undermine their existing sales. If they can bring out a product which people who would never even consider buying a pinball would buy, then that's an easy win for them. So I think it's definitely worthwhile trying for it, but they haven't achieved it yet, and it will be interesting to see what they've changed to make them think that they're on to a winner this time. Right, okay. Well, we'll just have to wait and see, I guess.
    29:48
    But it's interesting because there's several rumors going around of designers working on what games, and now home games as well. So it will be interesting to see who actually turns out to be working on what game and rumor title and so on. Yeah, so we were talking about sales to distributors and operators, and Gary Stern and Doug Skoll have been busy trying to expand and maintain Stern to market. Is that right? Yes, mainly overseas. They've been touring Europe, and unlike Jack that we just mentioned, they actually spent quite some time in Europe. I think Doc was there for at least a week.
    30:36
    And if I'm not mistaken, but don't pin me to it, I think Gary even flew along and went to Asia after that to meet with some people that he's working with over there. So they were out of the country for some time working on business relations and so on. Let's call it that.
    31:01
    And in the meantime, Stern, speaking of productions, you remember that last month we talked about how Stern announced the Catwoman signature edition of Batman 1986. Yes. Yes, well, so following that announcement, Stern announced a last call for Batman 66 as being the current production run, apparently being the final production run. So if you're in the market for a Batman 66, then now would be the time to get one or get one later secondhand on the secondhand market or what have you.
    31:43
    And this is for the new model as well, is it? the Catwoman edition. Yes. So I sort of get the idea that they're basically cleaning out the stock room. Like, okay, how much do we have left for Batman 66? How many games can we make? Okay, let's do a last call, see how many we can sell, and then we're done. It could also have to do with the license expiring, because usually those licenses are for three- to five-year deals, I think, could be very reasonable to, I think the three-year term would be up right now. So that would make perfect sense. And if it's not a hard-selling title for Stern, then there's no need to renew that license for now. No, I'm sure they can do it later if they think there's demand there, as they have in the past with other licenses. Yeah, and personally, I take the last call. If Stern is announcing a last call for a production run, I take that with a grain of salt. I mean, we've seen a last call type of situation for Metallica as well, and they kept on making those games anyway, based on whether there was demand or not. So we just have to wait and see whether this last call actually was the last call.
    33:13
    Right. Okay. Well, that's Batman 66. But their current title is still Black Knight Sword of Rage. Yeah. And there's been some changes in that this month. Yes. With some new code.
    33:30
    Yeah, new code for the limited and premium edition of the game. So the ones with the upper playfield? Yes, and they also announced a physical enhancement for those two models, which have to do with the upper playfield, so it is not applicable to the Pro model.
    33:53
    And Jack Danger did a stream where the new code was revealed as well as the physical enhancements were shown and explained. And aside from a few plastic protectors that will prevent plastics from breaking,
    34:15
    that physical enhancement seems to be mostly a post that is placed upon the upper playfield, if I'm not mistaken, causing, if the ball is rolling down on the bottom end of the upper playfield, I would say, usually it would be rolling down a black rubber and then Go straight out Go straight out and Onto the ramp Yes right And this new post creates a little bump for the ball which makes it bounce on the rubber. And then you might actually be able to catch it back on the flipper on the right and flip it back up the playfield. Yeah, so it's a little more like the action you would get on the Black Knight 2000 upper playfield where it would have the three lanes at the bottom with rubbers on and if you bounced it right you could hit one of those or more and get it back onto the side flipper to start doing the the orbit shots or the lock shots yes again although there's not a huge amount to shoot for on the upper playfield even if you do get the ball back to the upper flipper yeah other than lock, I suppose. Right, so, yeah, and it's a pity that, well, you mentioned the Black Knight 2000 upper playfield that has the three lanes at the bottom. It would have been nice if the upper playfield would have four lanes at the bottom now spelling Rage, which would be very appropriate with the theme, but it hasn't, so no point in going that far, but at least there would have been something more to do at the upper playfield than just locking balls and going for that multi-ball. Right, but now there's a little more action up there at least. And in order to get this modification, this free physical enhancement as you called it, what do people do? They contact Stone, contact the distributor, contact the reseller? It's a good question. Yeah. Well, I guess there'll be some information on the Stern website about it fairly soon. Yeah. If not now. I don't see Stern dealing with end users directly. So my guess is that people who bought a game should be contacting their distributor, and the distributor will be in contact with Stern, so something like that. And it could even be that people contact their distributor, they take their name and address, and then it could be shipped straight from Stern to them because it's probably rather cheap to ship. It's just a couple of plastics and a post and a couple of screws maybe. No need to drill anything in the playfield. It's all using existing holes on the playfield and what have you. Okay.
    37:20
    Oh, well, I'm sure they figured that out. and it is interesting to see that Stern is actually doing such an enhancement because I can't recall Stern sending out something that actually physically changes the game.
    37:37
    That doesn't happen very often, if ever. Yeah, I think I do remember Stern sending out something like ramp protectors or something like that where they had particular issues. and I know that Steve Ritchie's been talking about means or ways to modify your game slightly in order to make the ramp shot smoother by making sure all the screws are fully screwed down on the ramp flap so that there's no bounce as it goes up the ramp which can kill the speed of the ball. But there have been a couple of occasions, I think, where modifications have been made. But, yeah, nothing quite of this style of change to the game. To add a little more action to it, which obviously is a result of player and owner feedback.
    38:30
    You think so, yeah. So, oh well. Moving on, still sticking with Black Knight. This is fresh off the press, I would say. This weekend at Pintastic Steve Ritchie Did a seminar And apparently he announced that There will be a Final release For the Black Knight Sword of Rage Soundtrack Which makes me wonder how do people get it Because it's not part of Originally announced as part of the Limited edition of the game or something like that. So if Stern is now putting out records just because they can, because they own a certain type of music, then that's great. But where are you buying it? Well, I guess you can buy it along with regular swag from the Stern store and through distributors. Again, that's a viable route for you. Yeah, Microsoft might bring it to shows as well, I guess. Yeah, I'm sure it will be available in multiple places. just the same way that you could buy the TNA cassette and soundtrack. Right.
    39:50
    But, oh well, good for Stern. That will be their second album on vinyl that will see a release, I would say.
    40:02
    Could be interesting to see what else might be coming up. I'm also curious whether the music will be available on Spotify then. Yeah, absolutely You mentioned earlier about Jack Danger streaming The latest change to Black Knight But he's also had a happy event In this past month Yes, Jack became a daddy Again Okay, congratulations To Jack And his wife I guess, or girlfriend But I guess he's married, yes So they had a baby girl named Francis Yeah, so good news there And everything going well with them, apparently Yeah, so congratulations And we're wishing Jack some sleep during the night Which usually for young parents isn't that common As for other people without small children It usually is So congratulations And, yeah, moving on to other news. Yeah, can we – I was just mentioning about TNA. So I might have something that would tie in neatly with that, that game, which had a very popular software addition to give it a cooperative mode between players where they can team up to try and reach the ultimate target of that game, destroying Reactor 9. That mode has become popular enough that it's now spread to one of their other titles. Yes, it's now also available in the latest software update for Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle. and that's not all the TNA news there is because Scott Danisi showed a TNA playfield that has green plastic protectors that actually light up due to the LEDs underneath which looks rather radioactive and at Pimple Life they thought it was so cool that they are now having these plastic protectors, these green plastic protectors, I would say, in stock. So if you'd like to enhance your TNA game with these green plastic protectors, now you can. Although personally I was wondering whether orange or pink, or maybe even yellow, would fit the color scheme of the playfields better, because there's hardly any green in the playfield. but oh well. Yeah, maybe that gives a nuclear glow to it then that the game was well, it helps enhance the appeal of the game. So that's good news for Spooky and for TNA owners. Right. And in the meantime, Scott is still working on what is being referred to as Haunted House Party which is well, probably I think everybody knows that's not going to be the name of the game, but it's more like the working title.
    43:26
    And we'll see. That game is scheduled to be following after Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle. So I guess that's probably going to be around about early next year then. Yeah, something like that, because I figured that Spooky would be busy building Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle until the end of the year. Yeah, you'd think so.
    43:52
    I think, well, they have a limited production. Was it 300 or 500? Good question. I'll have to come back to you on that. Okay, so, well, anyway, they have a limited run of Alice Cooper. I think it was 500.
    44:11
    So they basically have to build these 500 games first. And for a company like Spooky, I'd say it's still pretty impressive if they manage to build them all before the end of the year. And they probably want to release details of their next title before they start building it. So you might hear something about that towards late fall, maybe Expo, or soon after. Right. So, okay, moving on to American Pinball. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, they've been producing more code for their current title, Oktoberfest.
    44:55
    Yeah, Pinball on Tap, to give it its full name. So they brought out a new version of that. I don't know exactly what it adds to the game, or whether it's more a bug fix and stability-enhancing version? Well, there was definitely a need for that, and so hopefully it does that. But I have no further details either.
    45:22
    I didn't look into that also, because no Oktoberfest games in my area to play for now. No, I don't know of any in the UK either.
    45:38
    So, yeah. But the Pimble still have to discover American Pimble as a brand. Yeah, well, they're helping to push their name a bit. They had an open house at their factory on the 22nd of June. Yeah, a week ago. Yeah, which, according to Duval, was a big success for the company. So they were very happy with the way that went. And I don't know whether they're planning to do any more.
    46:13
    But even there was talk about doing some kind of factory tour in association with Pinball Expo in October. but they will have probably not been set up in their new factory long enough to work out how they're going to do that with the sort of numbers that would come from a Pinball Expo tour they are still moving into their new building yeah they've been busy sort of finishing it off saw some nice pictures of a large 35,000 square feet factory which they plan to have three production lines.
    46:57
    Which is very ambitious, by the way, but good for them. Yeah, well, if they think they can use them, then why not? I hope there is enough demand for that. Well, either from their own games or making contract games, perhaps.
    47:13
    And, yeah, so they say they're going to be there by the summer and it looks like they're on their way to, probably going to be late summer now, before they move in there. But yeah, it looks like in a month or couple of months time, they'll be producing Oktoberfest games and the next title.
    47:37
    Yeah, which is rumoured to be Shutter Clones, but there were a couple of other titles also circulating, but Sherlock Holmes was the one that people got most excited about. So who knows? And apparently they currently have two games in development, so game three and four, and we'll just have to wait and see whenever they are ready to take these into production.
    48:08
    Yeah, I guess that will be dependent on sales. of Oktoberfest. Well, that, and also on whether the game is ready to go, because obviously if it's not ready, then you can have three production lines, but then if the game is not ready to go, then you still have to have people waiting before they can start building the games. Yeah, and people won't be waiting until they start promoting the game, the next title, so they'll have to get out there. No, they don't waste much time between titles. I think what I'm thinking about is probably about six to nine months between release and the announcement of their different titles. So Oktoberfest was announced officially. Well, the title was announced in Vancouver, but the game was revealed in October last year at Expo. so we can probably expect something to be, game 3 to be announced at least fairly soon yeah I guess so and on the other hand I hope that they are busy enough building Oktoberfest that they can wait a little bit longer, obviously Houdini was their first game and you might hope that the second game gets a bigger production run and yada yada yada Oh, well, we'll see.
    49:40
    Moving on to, well, let's do Haggis Pinball first. Yes. So the Australian company who are producing not just not one, but two titles,
    49:55
    although not entirely sure what order they're going to be releasing them. Right, but it appears that most of the attention recently has been going to the game called Celts.
    50:08
    And interestingly, they published a video in which they announced that the release of Celts will take place on August 16th at BPAC during the Brisbane Masters, which is an Australian pinball event. I'm not sure whether it's a one-day event or I think it's even longer. I'm not sure. But if you're in Australia, you're probably following that with far more interest than I am.
    50:42
    And interestingly, Haggis Pinball also announced that they are renting a 20-foot container to ship hopefully 10 to 11 pinball games to Pinball Expo in October. Now, that seems pretty ambitious also because in a 20-foot container, I think you can fit more than 10 to 11 games.
    51:05
    Yeah. Yes, Couch does seem to be the title which they're going with first, and that was the one that they showed at Texas, I think. Yeah. But at that stage, it was in very early development, wasn't it? It wasn't. It wasn't really much of a game. As much as I appreciated that they were showing that off, there wasn't much to show off.
    51:29
    Yeah, it was more a concept at that point. But if they've been working on it and think they can have some production games, or at least sample games, to take to Expo, then there's been a lot of work going on behind the scenes. that they haven't been sort of shouting about. Right. Well, Expo is a couple of months away, four, five, four months away. I'd say that's still pretty ambitious based on how far they appear to be at the moment. Yeah certainly on the website there a very little indication of any progress There some videos of course because they very good at making videos documenting what they have been doing But nothing in there that I can see that indicates the game is in any state to go into production. But who knows? Yeah. They also announced that their games will have internet connectivity, so they can update themselves with the latest code, share scores, online scoreboards, and all that sort of stuff. They still have to figure out what to do exactly with it, but the games will be able to do all that. Yeah, internet connectivity seems to be something which no manufacturer has really got a grip on yet. There's a lot of potential there for, as you say, software updates online, but also remote diagnostics and, I suppose, online scoreboards and that kind of thing. Yeah. Which I think, you know, to credit where it's due, I think it's something which Dutch Pinball were quite at the forefront of. Right. Before their troubles. But certainly with things like the brighter pinball kit and I don't know whether anything in the Big Lebowski was online as far as scoreboards go.
    53:32
    Can you remember that? No. No, I don't think it was or wasn't in there at that stage. But, yeah, it's something which is sort of fairly obvious and ubiquitous in other systems, but no people or companies have really exploited it to its full potential yet. Which reminds me that Gary Stern, in the same interview with Head to Head Pinball that I mentioned earlier, mentioned that their games will have Internet connectivity in the future as well. and they're looking into that. So, okay, we'll just have to wait and see. And from what I understand, the most easy way for those games to have internet connectivity would be to have access to the Wi-Fi of the location where they are being operated. Yeah, absolutely. it's not rocket science and it's something which every device that we, every phone and tablet and everything we have and PC all does it it's not difficult for pinball to do it but what's difficult is to provide a secure and reliable system that actually enhances people's experience with pinball and doesn't make it more of a security headache from being hacked or messed around with. Yeah. Then anybody, then the same sort of problems that you have with phones and computers. I think the company that has internet connectivity down the best at the moment would be Multimorphic with their Cosmic Card Racing game, because those four games also are playing against each other over the internet. They are, indeed, yeah. Yeah, and they do have an internet scoreboard and stuff. But even so, there's a lot of potential there that hasn't been exploited yet. But it gives people a chance to have a competitive advantage if they can bring it to market soon. Sure, yeah. And use it properly. That's also not so much being the first as being the first to do it right. Yeah, yeah, quite right. Right. Well, we're almost at the end of our news, I would say. Almost. There's still a few bits and pieces left to mention. The first that I want to address is something quite interesting, I think. Marco Specialties have launched Marco TV, in which reporter Imoto Harney is talking to all sorts of people from the pinball industry at various pinball shows. She was, as you might recall, recording interviews with people at the Texas Pinball Festival.
    56:37
    And the first of these interviews have been put online now. They have been edited and are available on YouTube. and I've been honored to be one of the special guests who we have been interviewed on Marco TV by Imodo Harney which resulted in a 15 minute episode which they allowed me to talk about the award winning Pinball Magazine number 5 and I also discussed working on Pinball Magazine number 6 and a couple of other things. I think it was a really nice video. Compliments to Marco TV and Emo Noharni for making this interview, but also all the other interviews. They did one with John Borg and a couple of other people from Stern. So I really recommend, if you like some background info on the pinball industry, check out MarcoTV on YouTube or social media and you might actually quite enjoy that.
    57:54
    Okay, well, congratulations on that. And in, I suppose, our other small snippet of news relates to what's been going on. Oh, is that you? Yeah. Hang on. I got a phone ringing here. Hang on. No, that's me. Yeah, it's me. Based on the ringtone, I'd say it's Gary. Hey, Gary Stern at last. We just talked, you must have heard what he was saying about you. Sorry to disappoint you. I'm afraid this is not Gary Stern calling. This is a Gary Flower calling. Oh, okay. Oh, well, almost good.
    58:31
    Well, almost. Okay. Yeah. I'm sure Gary's got some exciting news to share with us. He always has. As regular listeners of the show might know, we have had some difficulty in the past getting Gary on the show, but let's get him on and see what he has to say. Yeah, don't waste any more time. Okay, so... Yeah, if he hangs up. Yeah. Hello, Gary, can you hear me? I'm on a train at the moment, and we're about to go into attack.
    59:01
    What? And that was it, he's gone. Oh. Oh, we're almost at the end of the show. Oh, and how long it's going to be? Who's calling me from a train in the first place? Oh, well, I mean, honestly, you would think he would know.
    59:18
    Oh, well. Sorry about this for the inconvenience. I'm sure by this time next month he'll have emerged from his tunnel and will be able to update us on some other exciting industry news. you won't hear anywhere else or indeed probably here either right so I got two more news items sort of on my list ok hit me IFPA 16 is the world pinball championships that are held every year biannually they change in between America and Europe and this was a European edition where the championship was held in Italy and we had a rather exciting final I would have to say yeah it certainly did it was very difficult to separate the two finalists who were Daniele and Johannes wanted to get his name right and I'm glad you came to my rescue at that point You're welcome.
    60:34
    Yeah, it was so close that even, I think, something that's very, very rare, ended up with having exactly the same scores on one of the games they were playing in the final, which meant they had to take it to another game. And it all looked as though Daniele was set to win the final,
    60:57
    having achieved a massive score on Bram Stoker's Dracula. And then Johannes just had one ball in order to try and come back, and he scored over three billion and did it and won the final and became the IFPA World Champion for 2019. Right. So congratulations to him. Yeah, and the whole finals, they were being streamed, and there were actually quite a few people watching the stream. and you can I have no idea what the link is but do a Google search and I'm sure you can find it if you want to watch the finals again. Off the top of my head I think on Twitch TV it's JDL, it's Jim Lindsay's JDL Pinball I think is the stream you'll be looking for but I think they're also on YouTube as well now because Jim's edited them and put them online in a slightly cleaned up and tightened package, so you can watch the various stages of the tournament. And there's a lot of coverage there. And I think there's certainly 700 plus viewers watching the final towards the end. Man, I should be advertising Pinball Magazine to those people. What, you think they don't know about it? Well, it's hard to imagine, but some might not. Well, I guess so.
    62:22
    Perhaps if you're in the final, then you can just stop and do a little promotion. I might have to improve my flipper skills. Well, okay, whatever it takes. Yeah, so anyway, and the last item I have on my list, which I thought was rather interesting just to mention, the Pacific Pinball Museum held another game sale at their annex location. That took place June 22nd, but I have no idea how that turned out. I guess that must be, what, their third one of those? Yeah, something like that, second or third. Yeah, I think it probably is the third, where they set off their surplus or duplicate machines in order to, I guess, raise funds to keep their operation going and help in their search for a new, larger location to host it. Yeah, so, oh, well, I just figured I'd mention it, and hopefully it brought in a lot of money for them.
    63:32
    And, well, I guess if they put out more updates, we'll be reporting back on that. Mm-hmm. Okay. Right. So, I think that kind of wraps up our coverage for the month of June 2019. Okay, so if we're looking ahead, any expectations for the month of July?
    63:54
    Yeah, I think we'll get a phone call from Gary at some point. But apart from that, July is generally a pretty quiet month when it comes to pinball news and events around the world.
    64:08
    People take vacations, but who knows? That's the wonderful thing about pinball. We never quite know what's going to happen, and whatever does happen, we'll be back this time next month to bring you all the details. Right. Okay. So, well, I guess there's no point in dragging this on. So then thank you for listening, and if you're not subscribed to the Pinball newsletter, Pinball Magazine newsletter, I should say, then please make sure that you are. Obviously Pinball Magazine's number 1, 3, 4 and 5 Are still available in the Pinball Magazine Webshop In case you have been missing out on these And trust me if you don't have them You have been missing out So do check that out on www.pinball-magazine.com And if you want to keep up to date with the articles On Martin's website That's pinballnews.com. Thank you very much. And if you would like to sponsor an advert on our podcast, then feel free to get in touch.
    65:23
    Sure. Why not? Let's go commercial. Oh, finally. No, not really. No. No? We keep it free and commercial free. This is where your advertisement could have been. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So I briefly mentioned looking ahead at the month of July aside from the obvious expectations that sure Jersey Jack will be continuing to manufacture Wonka, Suncoast will be producing more Cosmic Carnivals, Stern will be producing more Black Knights and maybe surprises with an announcement of a new game I'm very hopeful that we might hear or that we might have news from Dutch Pinball yeah it's been a long time coming but from what you've been saying or hinting at there have been developments and they might be ready to announce something fairly soon yes so hopefully In fact, I have been talking, and I can say this on the record, I've been talking to Barry, and whenever they are ready to announce something, we will get the exclusive interview with Barry on the Pinball News and Pinball Magazine podcast. And that might actually be a bonus podcast, because I can imagine that Barry has quite a story to tell by now. yeah there's been a lot happening and uh it's it's an interesting tale and uh and uh a lesson for a lot of people about the way that pinball can uh the way a company's um shall we say financial and uh contractual dealings can go in unexpected ways right so at this point i'm i'm almost at the point where i'm saying like it's such a good story it could be a movie yeah and for some people that might at this point be hard to understand in the sense that they don't know all the details or as much details as i do but having been able to to take a sort of closer look into the kitchen and obviously there's a lot more going on than is being communicated to the outside, much to some people's frustrations, which I can understand. But for the benefit of the process, it's also for the best that certain info isn't revealed the minute it becomes available, so to speak. Sure. Yeah. It is frustrating at times for some people. You know, it would be nice for us to be able to report it, but we don't do anything which is going to jeopardize the outcome for the people who are, A, running the company, and B, have games on order and wouldn't do anything which would jeopardize them getting that or some good settlement. No, because I'm one of those people as well. Exactly, yeah.
    68:45
    But hopefully there will be news on that. So we might even be back sooner than the end of July. So hopefully we will be back with an exclusive. But if we are, I'm sure I will be sending out a newsletter to inform people on the existence of such a podcast.
    69:13
    So that's all for now. Thank you for listening. And hope to be back soon. Yeah. So until then, from me, Martin, and from Jonathan, it's goodbye. Thank you. Bye-bye.