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The Pinball Show Ep 120 Part 2: The Potatoes

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 1m·analyzed·Jan 4, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Manufacturers race production timelines amid announcement speculation and structural changes.

Summary

The Pinball Show discusses production timelines and upcoming game announcements across multiple manufacturers. Hosts speculate on Spooky Pinball's October 2023 reveal of a Ben Heck-designed game while Scooby-Doo production continues, debate Haggis Pinball's next remake (likely Centaur), analyze Chicago Gaming Company's Cactus Canyon shipping progress and spring announcement plans, and examine Pinball Brothers' merger with Pedretti Gaming into Euro Pinball Corp to scale manufacturing. Jersey Jack Pinball rumors include Godfather and potential dual game releases in 2023.

Key Claims

  • Spooky Pinball planning October 2023 reveal of Ben Heck-designed game

    medium confidence · NAP Arcade report cited; hosts express skepticism about timeline feasibility while Scooby-Doo still in production

  • Ben Heck's upcoming game has 8 main modes and 5 sub-wizard modes already programmed

    medium confidence · Hosts discuss rumors and Ben Heck's public comments about game progress

  • Chicago Gaming Company planning spring announcement of unrevealed game with non-mainstream appeal

    medium confidence · Hosts speculate based on Texas Pinball Festival timing and rumors about game design niche appeal

  • Haggis Pinball has delivered ~30% of allotment, expects additional 30% by end of Q1 2023

    high confidence · Dealer providing direct shipment tracking data on Fathom Revisited production

  • Haggis Pinball expected to announce Centaur remake in 2023

    medium confidence · Host prediction based on licensing viability analysis and Marty Robbins portfolio game creation

  • Pinball Brothers merging with Pedretti Gaming to form Euro Pinball Corp for scaled manufacturing

    high confidence · Direct email from Pinball Brothers quoted with specific merger details and production expansion plans

  • Jersey Jack Pinball rumored to announce Godfather game in February-March 2023

    medium confidence · Host speculation based on production capacity and designer availability patterns

  • Ben Heck recently re-hired in-house at Spooky Pinball after previous separation

    high confidence · Hosts confirm recent announcement of Ben Heck's return to in-house role at Spooky

  • Lyman Sheets' death complicates Chicago Gaming Company Cactus Canyon code enhancement effort

    high confidence · Host references Lyman Sheets' death as factor reducing from two-person to one-person coding effort

Notable Quotes

  • “It's the only thing I can think of, but it's still pretty lofty goals. Why would you reveal before you're ready to ship the Ben Heck game?”

    Host (analyzing Spooky timeline) @ Early discussion section — Articulates core skepticism about Spooky's announced October reveal timing versus actual production readiness

  • “I think they are too busy building Scoobies. I think they wait. I think that if they're already getting this information out there, I worry that there may be an IP contract agreement that's going to push for a 2023 announcement.”

    Host (Dennis) @ Spooky section — Raises licensing pressure as potential driver of accelerated announcement timeline

  • “We have received 30% of our allotment, and Damien is working on the line currently for an additional 30% of our allotment to be working over the next two months”

    Dealer/NAP representative @ Haggis section — Provides concrete production tracking data on Fathom Revisited shipping progress

  • “I think they're really going to want to get experienced pinball people trying it because I don't think it's going to have a lot of general generic game room sales.”

    Host @ Chicago Gaming Company section — Indicates unrevealed CGC game targets hardcore/tournament players rather than casual location play

  • “The new company is to provide a superior platform for large-scale manufacturing of pinball machines. Besides the raw capacity increase, it's also going to allow them to run production of multiple games in parallel.”

    Pinball Brothers email (read by host) @ Pinball Brothers section — Official announcement of Euro Pinball Corp formation and manufacturing consolidation strategy

  • “Because, I mean, they're not Highway, right? Yes, they scooped up all the valuable remnants of Highway and kind of relaunched separately. But they had a lot of traction as an upstart versus American Pinball, which played in the unlicensed space.”

    Host @ Pinball Brothers analysis — Contextualizes Pinball Brothers' competitive advantage via licensed IP acquisition from Highway Pinball

Entities

Spooky PinballcompanyBen HeckpersonChicago Gaming CompanycompanyHaggis PinballcompanyPinball BrotherscompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyPedretti Gaming

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Pinball Brothers merging with contract manufacturer Pedretti Gaming to form Euro Pinball Corp; represents structural consolidation to solve manufacturing bottleneck

    high · Official Pinball Brothers email announces Euro Pinball Corp formation with dual purpose: 'superior platform for large-scale manufacturing' and ability to 'run production of multiple games in parallel'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Skepticism about Jersey Jack Pinball's rumored Godfather game commercial viability relative to Toy Story 4

    medium · Host prediction: 'I'm going to go on a limb and say it doesn't sell as well as Toy Story. Because Toy Story, people forget, still sold pretty good.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Aggressive timeline concerns: Spooky Pinball planning October 2023 Ben Heck game reveal while Scooby-Doo production still ongoing; hosts question feasibility

    medium · Host directly states skepticism: 'It still seems very aggressive to me to do it this soon' and 'I'm very concerned from a quality perspective'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Haggis Pinball positioning limited edition models as only way to access new code (Marty Robbins), forcing collector preference toward premium tier

    medium · Host analysis: 'they're going to stick with that then I think it's inevitable...everyone picked the higher end version it's the only way to get the code'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Possible IP contract pressure forcing Spooky Pinball to accelerate Ben Heck game announcement timeline

    medium · Host speculation: 'I worry that there may be an IP contract agreement that's going to push for a 2023 announcement. Somewhat similar maybe to them with Scooby-Doo'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.185

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. Welcome back to The Pinball Show. We now return you to part two of episode 120 of The Pinball Show.
0:30
Spooky Pinball. Oh, Scooby-Dooby-Doo. Per NAP Arcade, Spooky Pinball is looking to reveal their next game in October 20 and 23. That soon? Yeah, that'd be the Ben Heck game because he's already getting out there, giving little tees and stuff. And I'm like, do they really think that they're going to want almost all of those Scooby-Doos to be produced? This doesn't... Yeah. What? Yeah, I'm sorry to cut in, but that's the thing. You interviewed – I heard your interview with Bug and Luke, and I heard Bug's interview as well on Loser Kid. He seemed – I know that they strive and have been very successful in getting done with their runs quicker than the 18 months they project. But this is under a year. They're not going to be – I mean, I thought Bug was pretty clear that he thought, in a perfect world, something like 14 to 16 months to get through the run. And so obviously October is under a year. Why would you reveal that soon when you wouldn't be ready to build? The only thing I can think of, Dennis, is if they think that they can build from January to October 1,500 games, give them about three-fourths into production completion. Then they think at announcement of October Ben Heck's game, they then have safely two more months to knock out an additional 500, maybe knock out an additional 300, and then kind of be finishing up those while the new game goes on the line. It's the only thing I can think of, but it's still pretty lofty goals. Why would you reveal before you're ready to ship the Ben Heck game? Because that's what they've been doing for years. I mean, so do you think they'll have a few built to show some stuff? They announce, they take money, they give themselves one to two months to build the first 30 to 50 that they know where they're going so that they can help tinker on them, and then they jump into full-blown production. At least that's the plan for Scooby-Doo. It still seems very aggressive to me to do it this soon. I have a question for you. I don't expect you to be able to answer it, but I want to ask it anyway.

  • Pinball Brothers sales in 2022 exceeded American Pinball and Haggis Pinball combined at this operator

    high confidence · Dealer directly states comparative 2022 sales figures from their business

    • “I really think that this may be the first year that they can get two out in one year. I've never said that before.”

    Host (discussing Jersey Jack) @ Jersey Jack section — Predicts unprecedented dual game releases from JJP in single calendar year

  • “I do not think it will fare Guns and Roses well... I'm going to go on a limb and say it doesn't sell as well as Toy Story.”

    Host @ Jersey Jack discussion — Skepticism about commercial viability of rumored Godfather game vs. recent Toy Story release

  • “Pinball Brothers in 2022, sales-wise, has surpassed that for us of American Pinball Sales and Haggis Pinball Sales.”

    Dealer/NAP representative @ Pinball Brothers section — Market share claim showing Pinball Brothers outperformance versus other boutique manufacturers

  • “manufacturing in europe gives you a larger continental audience than australia does even though i get the impression australia might have more pinball fans per capita than any other place”

    Host @ Pinball Brothers geographic analysis — Geopolitical market analysis of manufacturing location advantages for European vs. Australian base

    • company
    Euro Pinball Corpcompany
    Scooby-Doogame
    Fathom Revisitedgame
    Cactus Canyongame
    Queengame
    Aliengame
    Centaurgame
    Toy Story 4game
    Lyman Sheetsperson
    Eric Menierperson
    Mark Seidenperson
    Steve Ritchieperson
    Marty Robbinsperson
    NAP Arcadeorganization
    Highway Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    The Pinball Showmedia
    Godfathergame
  • $

    market_signal: Pinball Brothers 2022 sales exceeded American Pinball and Haggis Pinball combined at this dealer location

    high · Dealer directly states: 'Pinball Brothers in 2022, sales-wise, has surpassed that for us of American Pinball Sales and Haggis Pinball Sales'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ben Heck recently rehired in-house at Spooky Pinball after prior separation

    high · Hosts confirm: 'they recently announce that Ben Heck is now in-house. They got him hired, which changes things.'

  • $

    market_signal: Haggis Pinball secondary market pricing for Fathom Revisited reaching $12,500; expected Centaur remake to have significant price increase from $10K+ base

    medium · Host reports seeing Fathom on secondary market for '$12.50' [likely $12,500]; predicts Centaur 'price goes up significantly' from Fathom baseline

  • ?

    announcement: Chicago Gaming Company planning spring announcement of specialized game with non-mainstream appeal targeting experienced/competitive players

    medium · Host prediction: 'I do kind of think that the next thing that they pull out maybe catches people off guard' and 'I don't think it's going to have a lot of general generic game room sales'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Chicago Gaming Company Cactus Canyon code enhancement delayed due to Lyman Sheets' death; one-person team replacing two-person effort

    high · Host explicitly states: 'with the unfortunate death of Lyman Sheets, I think it's really complicated what was going to be a two-person effort to a one-person effort'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Jersey Jack Pinball rumored to announce Godfather game in February-March 2023 with Eric Menier as designer

    medium · Host states: 'I would guess that the Rumors of Godfather are probably true. I guess that we're going to see and hear about that in February and March'

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis Pinball pursuing classic Bally/Williams remake strategy with limited edition runs (250 units) and premium code as differentiator

    medium · Host discusses Centaur remake strategy: 'the way they positioned it...basically everyone kind of is corralled into picking the ce [limited edition]...it's the only way to get the code'

    • 2:35
    It's not eight inches. It's probably like normal size, more of a grower. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, no one cares. Merry Christmas. So I'm very confused. Is this what was the Ben Heck spooky CGC collaboration game, or is this different? I'm very confused as well, because I don't know the answer. I would think so. But then again, no. I was under the impression that Ben was maybe doing two games. One that CGC was going to build and then one that Spooky was going to build. And then obviously Scooby-Doo got announced and Ben isn't on Scooby-Doo. And CGC's next rumored game is not the Ben Heck Spooky collaboration game. It's not. So I've wondered if things are so behind on CGC that they moved – like that whole arrangement I always just thought was, well, CGC will be able to build faster. So Spooky will be able to do this collaboration. Yeah, but it's almost like the table will turn there. No, Spooky builds faster than CGC does. So everything seems to be that way at this point. So I thought, well, maybe they've canceled the deal with CGC and just gone ahead and moved. But again, that's maybe easier said than done. That's what I was thinking as well because you think about it. When that agreement went into effect, I think that might have been more of a Charlie show.
    4:07
    The management has kind of changed. That's true. But, I mean, we've seen Spooky quite bluntly do, like, wholesale personnel changes in terms of people working on stuff. And they did recently announce that Ben Heck is now in-house. They got him hired, which changes things. When they announced that CGC thing, Ben Heck was no longer a part of Spooky Pinball. Now he is. Yes. And, again, it's so – What does CGC have to do with any of that project? No, I don't understand. But again, so Ben's heavily involved with Spooky, but they've made no bones about that. He's not involved with the new Warden set of boards. True. He was the one behind Penatar, which they only used for one game run. Well, two if you count Ultraman and Separate from Halloween. So everything is – I don't know. I don't know how much is musical chairs and how much is shuffling deck chairs. It is very interesting. Because everything, like who's doing what, where, and again, we're on the outside looking in. So I'm not too surprised that I'm confused because I'm confused by what many companies do. Here's what I'll say for 2023. As interesting as this report that NAP put out, I don't think it happens. I don't think Spooky reveals anything in 2023. I think they are too busy building Scoobies. I think they wait. I think that if they're already getting this information out there, I worry that there may be an IP contract agreement that's going to push for a 2023 announcement. Somewhat similar maybe to them with Scooby-Doo and getting that out before we thought.
    5:51
    If that is the case, I am very concerned from a quality perspective. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. I can see that. This is not a position you want to – I mean, I felt – and again, this is my personal feeling. But I felt that for whatever reason, when Ultraman and Halloween did come out, regardless of my – saying aside my opinions of the layout and everything, a lot of people were asking why when the rules are being done by someone different than who worked on Rick and Morty, is this game so not far along? And Ben Heck has said online already about his upcoming game with Spooky that he has been working on it a long time. He said that by the time he is going to – Is he doing the rules? It acts as if he is. Okay. And then we also learned that this next Ben Heck Spooky game has eight main modes, five sub-wizard modes already programmed in it, already done. Okay. And there's been some rumors floating around about what the next theme is, but NAP hasn't heard anything concrete yet.
    7:04
    I don't know what to make. This is going to be an interesting year for spooky pinball in a lot of ways. We'll be talking a lot about spooky pinball, I believe. It's odd. All right, so let's assume that's the case. It's odd, though, to be finding out all this stuff about this new game when they haven't even sold out of the Scoobies yet. That's exactly what's odd. And I think – I don't want to be butchered here, but I think that may be a Ben Heck thing more so than this. Oh, just him talking about his upcoming game sort of thing? Yeah, him feeling itchy and a lot of attention is going to Scooby-Doo. And what about me? I'm Ben Heck. I've been trying to be around here for years.
    7:49
    Okay. I've already got stuff coded, damn it. We'll see. Other than that, I don't know any predictions I'd have for Scooby-Doo or Spooky Pinball 2023. I think, you know, I don't think there's going to be any big surprises coming from Spooky Pinball. They'll turn them out.
    8:11
    They've managed their production very consistently. Perhaps the best of any manufacturer. Very consistent. No, I think they'll plug along with Scoobies getting them out. When it comes to haggis pinball, we're going across the lake. A haggis, do you know how to let the air out of them on?
    8:30
    I just wait for it every time. Fathom Revisited mermaids are shipping. I know because I've received one and we've received some of our allotment as an official dealer over here in the States. if you guys want to check out one of the just a wonderfully well done article game review kind of thing go to the pinball loft.com tim over there he really captured really nice pictures narratives talking about the process of putting an order in waiting the ups and downs of this product some tweaks that he's done after picking one up from flipping down pinball and And just some of the really special things about this game that he hasn't seen in other games. And he owns like 50 games. So it was a really beautiful and nicely done write-up. What do we expect from Haggis? Do they get all of the Fathoms out this year? Do they announce another product coming this year? And if so, is it another Bally remake? Or is it Marty Robbins' original special?
    9:37
    So the problem with Haggis for me is I don't know how many – I know they sold out of the limited model. I don't know how many classic models they sold, and I don't know how many they've built so far. I don't know. I don't have a good sense of quantity, and so because of that, I struggle with this. But, of course, that won't stop me from making a prediction. Well, I'm going to give you a little information. I'm going to impart real quick a little information. if it is evenly based on distribution. Not that I think it is, but if for some reason it is, I can say that we have received 30% of our allotment, and our allotment came at the end of the kind of, not the end of the run, but like at the end of the agreement. Hey, you can be a dealer of ours. Here's your allotment. I'm going to put it throughout the spread here kind of thing. Good business sense, yada, yada. We've received 30%, and Damien is working on the line currently for an additional 30% of our allotment to be working over the next two months and to get those shipped out. So give or take, I would guess, was it January? I'd guess by end of Q1, we will have 60% of our allotment. Okay. Given that, then yes, I do think they reveal another game in 2023. yes I do believe it is a remake and yes I do believe it is Centaur and I think that sells $250 pretty damn quick too and I think they do the same thing there will be a classic model that will be barely bought there will be a limited model that will be the one with Marty's code and I don't know if they stay $250 maybe they up that I definitely think the price goes up significantly though as it probably should on the secondary market. These are selling pretty high, even of the few that have come out. I've seen one on Pennside just pop up for $12.50 used. Somebody didn't use it very long. I mean, part of that, obviously, is economics inflation factors, and given they build these in Australia, it's quite bluntly poorly positioned to sell in the U.S. market. It's just going to be expensive. It's hard to get them over. I had to pay $800 to fly mine over. I think it was $1,200 just for mine to fly over. If the goal was international sales, I don't think it was an ideal place to choose manufacturing, but it is what it is. I found it interesting. It was either on TPN's final round or it was the head-to-head episode that they did that Martin Robbins said that he had already designed a game physically, I guess, and maybe code-wise. he designed a game prior to working on doing code for the remake of Fathom. That was like his portfolio to be interviewed and to come to the company. So that game's going to be somewhere in there. Maybe it's after a Centaur. But I think you're right. If they're doing another remake, it'll be Centaur. I think that Centaur is the best license of that era after Fathom for a sales perspective. So that's why I think it would be. In fact, after Centaur, I think it really drops off in terms of viability. I don't. I think you still have 8-Ball Deluxe.
    13:02
    Yeah, and actually on Final Round Pinball Podcast, Jeff and Marty kind of walked through all that era and kind of talked about what things they could do. And I know Jeff was really big on it. Actually, of the class of 81 Valley games, 8-Ball Deluxe is my favorite. But what do you – the rules on EBD are actually really solid for what the game is. what do you do different? Because part of the reason to up-buy is to get the new code, and I'm not sure what you do with that. Later games took that same concept and added a nine-ball option, basically, like Sharky Shootout. But it's so pedestrian in terms of what your options are without changing it from pool. And what's pool, but EBD as a mirror image, and they added multi-ball. It's like, I don't...
    13:48
    You could still add depth. You could, I just don't... I just don't think it sells as well as – like people love Centaur because it's got the cool voice and it's got a weird layout and it's just – I think for pinball players, Centaur is where it's at. But I think for just the classic nostalgia, it is the early solid state of choice for a lot of people. Like when they think in their childhoods, what was at the local grocery store? What was at the local diner? It was 8-Ball Deluxe. Yeah, but there are still a lot of them out there too. I just don't think it's the strongest one to go with. It's the solid state Twilight Zone. There was a lot out there, yeah. It would be my number three pick. I think if they do a third remake, I actually don't think they're going to do five. I'd be more interested in an eight-ball deluxe over Centaur, honestly. I think Centaur sells better. I think they'll do Centaur, and then I think if they're still going to stick with this, they'll do EBD next. I don't think they do Flash Gordon because of licensing, ever. Ooh.
    14:45
    I think they'll stay away from that one. plus I think of the class of 81 I think they made more of those than anything else and if it's just ballet then we're limiting ourselves yeah I don't Williams wasn't as strong if they're not just going to stick with 81 I definitely if you're going to milk what people are into especially if your goal is to sell 250 going back a year and doing Frontier makes a lot of sense it's a competitive darling yeah but that's it But you only need to sell 250 People aren trying to collect Frontiers really Do Do That one of the sounds from it Do Made me a scapegoat. Marty hates the crickets. He did say that his version of the code won't have those crickets. Do you think Paragon sells well as a remake?
    15:36
    Yes, I do. But I do not think they go down wide body route. Okay. I know that Marty indicated they haven't ruled it out, but I don't think they'll do it. Hmm. I think Paragon would sell better than Frontier. I agree. But I still don't think they're going to go and retool to sell 250 Paragons. I think I'd rather have Frontier than I would Paragon. Again, it comes down to quantity. If they're not selling, like, the way they positioned it, this kind of reminds me. 250 is not many. It's not. And that's where, like, any of these can sell 250. Any, almost, yeah. Any remake. Yeah, pretty much any remake. As long as it's authentically the layout and the original code is always available, I think selling to and haggis is kind of pulling a spooky in my opinion in that you know spooky positions everything so basically everyone kind of is corralled into picking the ce it was the same with haggis and fathom everyone picked the higher end version it's the only way to get the code so they're going to stick with that then I think it's inevitable that if that's the goal like they're trying to if the count's going to stay 250 and that's really all they're shooting for and they're not trying to grow it or anything any of these. Even like Xenon. You'd probably get 250 sold. I hate Xenon.
    16:54
    Do you hate the layout or do you hate the rules? Both. I find it to be one of the most boring games. I think it's beautiful.
    17:04
    Try Tube Shot. God. I'd only be interested if the rules really were different. I just don't find it fun. That was my first solid state game.
    17:17
    I don't know if you can really, and I learned a lot on it. I was glad I owned it, but I don't know if you can save that layout. Yeah, it's just, I don't. But, you know, I'm one of those people that doesn't think code can save any layout. I think some layouts are unsalvageable.
    17:32
    Speaking of, did you see that Cuber's Quest that popped up on Pinside for sale? No, I did not. I've seen one. I've never played it. I've seen one in person, though, before. The rare bird. Oh, my God. Well, you look at it and you're like, no wonder they didn't sell any. Yeah, but the rarity collectability kind of got my, perked up my collector ears. I ain't got enough space to have a whole pile of unplayable games that are not fun sitting around in my house. I just, I can't do it. I did pass. What about Chicago Gaming Company? Let's keep going through these. Ellie's are shipping of Cactus Canyon. Legit. Last episode it was like a question mark. This is legit. We have, they're still trickling, but they're trickling a little better. The flow is better on production here. They still have a lot to make. They have a lot to make. So they are shipping. And so far, not a lot of issues. Hardly any issues for this solid-ass LA game. Damn, it's so nice.
    18:36
    But what's going to happen in 2023? They're going to make the rest of these. They'll make some SE pluses that probably puts them at almost summertime. I think they're going to try to announce another game in the middle of all these production things in the spring, I guess.
    18:51
    That's going to be the game that we've been rumored and all of that stuff. Do you think we hear anything else from this company for the rest of 2023?
    19:00
    Other than the new game? Other than that new game they're talking about. No, I do think the new game gets revealed. I had heard a lot of reports that it's been ready, that they could have revealed it this year.
    19:14
    I think – I'll go ahead and – because I don't think anything else happens out of them, just because this has just been such a slow turn to get the LEs out of the CCRs. I think that their ideal would be they would like to have games on the floor at TPF to at least start looking at the new game. Okay. Even if most people are going to have to wait a while for the orders. So I think they want to reveal by the end of March.
    19:43
    I'm not saying they'll reveal at the show, but I think they would love to actually be able to let – because it's a good time to get a lot of pinheads some hands-on experience with the game. And given what I've heard rumored about this game, I don't think it's going to be a game for everybody. And so I think they're really going to want to get experienced pinball people trying it because I don't think it's going to have a lot of general generic game room sales. So I am going to continue off of that because those are good estimates and projections and speculative guesses. I'm going to say I'm kind of with you.
    20:20
    I, on the other hand, do kind of think that the next thing that they pull out maybe catches people off guard a little bit in a good way. and uh i think it does fairly well and sadly if you asked me this a year ago i would laugh but i think you're going to see another product come from chicago gaming company before the enhanced code comes out as an option for cactus canyon that's that's nuts i you know i could see that just because the the code enhancement is basically independent of the manufacturing arm. So I don't know. I mean, obviously. Or is it, though? Because there's a physical piece. Yeah, there is. But do you think that's the hurdle? No, I think it's the coding. Well, yeah. And I think most of the listeners know, but with the unfortunate death of Lyman Sheets, I think it's really complicated what was going to be a two-person effort to a one-person effort. And so I understand. I understand that's probably going to be a big factor. And I think you're going to hear people from CGC probably say before the end of the year, you're going to see another release title. But it will not happen. I'm with you there. And I would also question whether or not the reported 2023 additional run of Medieval Madness happens. Oh, I didn't even remember that. Yeah. I think if that does happen, it happens late 2023, and it'll be a thing where we just put out five of them before January 1st just to say we hit our thing.
    22:04
    And then we focus more on 2024 of an additional run of MMR. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking for CGC. Pinball Brothers, they had a big update. They emailed individuals. I'm going to read some of this email. They're greeting everybody. New Year's greetings from Pinball Brothers. Been very eventful for them. They're changing some stuff up.
    22:27
    Pinball Brothers will be extra exciting for 2023 as they're kicking off by moving their production to a new factory. They're going to be slowed down a little bit for a couple of weeks, but from the second half of January, they expect to be up and running with a bang. The move also is going to see them join forces with longtime partner Pedretti Gaming. Remember, we've talked about Pedretti. They've been doing these little kits for additional games. They've been the manufacturer for Pinball Brothers. They're joining forces into this new expansion, and together they have shipped close to 800 games, and they've decided to take the partnership to the next level by forming what they're calling Euro Pinball Corp.
    23:07
    Not even corporation. Euro Pinball Corp. Oh. The purpose of the new company is to provide a superior platform for large-scale manufacturing of pinball machines. Besides the raw capacity increase, it's also going to allow them to run production of multiple games in parallel. That's what they're thinking so far.
    23:26
    They've had a lot of delays over the last 12 months, but they've managed to still be able to reveal Queen, but only a couple games have been put out of Queen so far. Let's see.
    23:38
    Software is going to continue to evolve in the meantime on Queen. Getting it over to the U.S. is a priority when this happens. COVID developments are out of their hands, but big plans for 2023, a wider network of distributors to make sure everybody who wants a game should be easier time finding one. That statement doesn't make any sense. Our aim is decreased lead times, too, and to make all games available on demand, just like Alien is now. If you ask for it, you'll get it. That is true. We have Aliens in stock. There's some new projects in the pipeline. I don't think they announced it here, but I think they said that they were going to announce another product or another game next year, which wouldn't surprise me. Predictions-wise, okay. I think by summer of next year, they announce another game, and they start shipping them in December. Summer of 2024? Yeah, like, you know. Okay. You know, I could – okay. Well, this – I didn't know about this. All right. So they've – the companies are merging. They're merging. Okay. Well, this – because one of the things I struggled with back – I probably talked about it more on my other podcast, but was that Pinball Brothers has been writing these licenses that they had left over essentially from Highway Pinball. And Queen is kind of the last of the viable ones. I mean they have Playboy, but I mean I don't – Come on. I don't think – come on. No, come on. No, don't do that one. and so I thought it would make a lot of sense for them because they've been kind of contract manufacturing all this, staying distant, not having any of their own designers, I really question whether or not the company even planned to continue existing and then after I kind of discussed that rumor, I started hearing more and more reports, not directly from Pinball Brothers but from other people that purportedly have contact with them that no, no, they actually were planning to do continue on and actually get into original new designs, not imports and cleanups from highway stuff. And this makes a lot, it solves a lot of the obstacles I wondered what they would be able to get around, like staffing up, building your own manufacturing line, merging with Progetti solves all of that. And so now, yes, absolutely, given that news, I do think they plan to stick with it in the long haul.
    25:51
    Whether that would be a good thing or not, we'll have to see. It could be that too many cooks in the kitchen couldn't think. You know, I don't know. Again, Progetti, if Progetti's mostly just been like the manufacturing side, there's still the question of like bringing on a design team or contracting designers. But that's easier than as we as we learned with DeepRoot. That's that's easier. It's the manufacturing where most of these upstarts stumble. And PB was dodging that by having Pedretti do a lot of the build or all of the build. But now, you know, having it all fully incorporated so that they have the problem with contract manufacturing is what happens if a bigger fish comes along and takes up all the contract time? Yeah. So, and again, Dutch Pinball. What was their, the Ametron, or no, no, Ametron's who owns American Pinball. What was, no, the, what was it, Aura? Oh, yeah. Their contract manufacturer. And then they had struggles, conflicts on the costing with their contractor. And then it all fell apart. And then they were stuck with all of these orders and no means to build them. And they had to develop that. And they have done so very slowly. Well, and you've seen that kind of stuff, too, with the same thing you're discussing, Dennis. like with play field issues. Everybody keeps saying, man, Spooky has the best, and Americans get the best because they use, I'm blanking on the fucking name. It's Biden, not Biden, Biden, blah, blah, blah.
    27:09
    But the manufacturer they use for play fields can only make so many. So these other manufacturers have reached out to this company that does the Spooky pinball games with American, and they're at capacity. They can't fill that. So locking up a Pedretti may make sense here if they can continue to get the themes that people want. Well, yeah. I mean, Highway's catalog had good themes. Alien was a great theme. Queen is a great theme. We don't know what they're capable of because that was a Highway thing. Yes. So it will be interesting. But I think based off of that, Pinball Brothers does understand. I think they get it in the sense that they understand that theme is that instant nostalgia that clearly has been working for them because they have had a lot more success. Because, I mean, they're not Highway, right? Yes, they scooped up all the valuable remnants of Highway and kind of relaunched separately. But they had a lot of traction as an upstart versus American Pinball, which played in the unlicensed space, and we've seen the results of that. I mean, think about it. I'm only one little business, but Pinball Brothers in 2022, sales-wise, has surpassed that for us of American Pinball Sales and Haggis Pinball Sales. No, I'm not surprised. Interesting to note, though. I actually think this is the merge. I think this is very smart, and I have a lot more confidence about their survivability given this than I did. But still getting them overseas is pricey. well again that's the that's the that's an issue but i i do think manufacturing in europe gives you a larger continental audience than australia does even though i get the impression australia might have more pinball fans per capita than any other place it's still uh population wise it's not a particularly large and of course the continent is the country so it's not yeah it's just there's just less people it's it's a it's a it's a numbers game as we're moving along Jersey Jack Pinball has been kind of quiet this year. So quiet, except for Toy Story 4. The second half of the year, been kind of quiet.
    29:21
    I don't know what's coming. I would guess that we're going to see an Eric Menier game. I would guess that the Rumors of Godfather are probably true. I guess that we're going to see and hear about that in February and March. That's what my guess would be. I also would guess that we could see a Steve Ritchie game before the end of the year. Already. I really think that this may be the first year that they can get two out in one year. I've never said that before. Why his, though, and not – and I apologize. They have another – they have someone like Gut from the homebrew scene, right, that they brought in before him.
    29:55
    Mark Seiden, yes. Mark, thank you. I thought it was Mark. Why wouldn't it be Mark's game? I don't know. It could be. My guess is that when Mark came in, Mark came in as a designer, but coming from just the homebrew, I think there's probably some, hey, we're getting in Steve Ritchie as well. We've got Pat Lawler a little bit longer. We've got Eric Menier. Watch them. Help with some of their projects so that we know that you're going to be super ready. We know Steve Ritchie's going to be ready. He's been doing this for decades. Let's go with what we know is ready. I think Mark maybe just needs a little bit more time. That's all speculation. I have zero clue. Right, right, right. My speculation will be, I do agree with you. We will probably see sometime late winter early spring Eric new game I do think it will be Godfather I do not think it will fare Guns and Roses well I'm not even sure.
    30:52
    And if the pricing is the same, I don't know if it's going to do much better than Toy Story. I honestly, I'm going to go on a limb and say it doesn't sell as well as Toy Story. Because Toy Story, people forget, still sold pretty good. And so anyway, that's getting very, very predictive. I just don't know until we see it. It could be a god of greatness. Eric has some interesting design thing, like philosophies that he does that I think resonate really well with pinheads. So that's – He's the Mr. World under glass. Yeah, yeah. It's like he's really into – He does a better news designer. Yeah. And so that's the big enigma because I don't think he got a good license to work with. And I love the movies, but I just don't think so. So I do think they, JJP, really, really, really wants to try and get a second game announced in 2023. I think if it happens, it's in the fall, probably around expo time. And I think it's Mark's game, not Steve's. Okay.
    31:52
    Could be the case. I also would predict and guess that you're not going to see any pricing changes. They're not going to, even if they thought Toy Story was too costly, especially with the market. And I don't think you're going to see them reduce prices for the next release Jersey Jack game. Do you think they bring back the SE?
    32:16
    No. I don't. I don't think they bring back the SE. And I also don't think that they reduce the number of total CEs and LEs allotted. I don't think they reduce that. I'm going to. I'll be a little bold. Dig in the mud and they stay where they're at and hope not to get blown over. I agree with most of that. I'm probably wrong. I shouldn't say this because I'm making predictions. I think I'm going to do a low odds prediction. I'll go ahead and predict that they do bring back the standard. OK, I think I think they are going to cite. And I think this is fair because while there's been a lot of criticism of Toy Story and I know as as you feel, some of it is unfair and some of it is fair. I think the one thing we all agree can be a fair complaint is it was a very high dollar investment to get into either model. I think it really hurts them. I think it really hurts Jersey Jack that they do not have a SKU that they can MSRP under $10,000.
    33:15
    Yeah, but even so, is it really going to sell at $99.99 for an entry level? I think, especially, again, remember, the older SEs dropped even more than that. Yeah, those are $67.50 per year. If we're doing 15K, 12K, and then like 9,900, and they don't have to take out as much stuff so that like Guns N' Roses doesn't look like a concert anymore, then I think it probably is worth the gamble because they're just not price competitive. And that would be okay if you're seen as the Cadillac of pinball. I don't think they got that rep anymore. I think they're just seen as the expensive of pinball. we'll talk about that uh we'll talk about that here soon but i think somebody has taken that title from him so anyway those are my those are my guesses uh yeah so yeah i georgia jack is a big question mark they're a big question mark this year and the reason i'm thinking this is the first year for two is because i'm thinking that godfather is correct and i just don't Based on that theme, I just don't see it selling well, thus giving them time to announce and to have another game ready by the end of the year. And that's why I think the same way. I think that their line isn't going to stay busy enough with Godfather to warrant pacing. Honestly, I don't think Toy Story was either, but I think there were supply chain issues that have slowed them up some. And again, the reports are Godfather, like design-wise, it's done. It's ready. So, again, they've been trying since they've got over to Chicago. Listen, they've been trying to continue to beef up having a second line or a third late. They're still working on that. So I think that's still going to be their goal. I wouldn't even be surprised if they if they have a flop, whether it's the next game or the one after the one. They still have Wizard of Oz in their back pocket. They can run 500 of those and sell them in an instant. so they've got a catalog not that they want to re-up they do have a catalog of that, Pirates of the Caribbean they could bring back, they don't even need new games that's why I don't know why they have had four designers three now they're so designer top heavy I don't get it and I worry about the decision other than they got that juicy billionaire money back in them so I guess if you want to go with that old pinball joke about how do you become a millionaire and pinball start as a billionaire you can last as long as you want this jersey jack pinball what about multimorphic they've been teasing that they may have two new games in 2023 these are new module based games yeah uh my understanding is jerry the owner of multimorphic recently doubled down on that statement saying yeah they still fully plan to reveal the two so that is my prediction i do think they will reveal both of those planned modules in 2023 i don't know what to think about multimorphic it's hard for me to predict because I know that they're probably not going to be close on production completion of their Weird Al, their hit game for them. And they're still 12 to 15 months probably behind on that production. I don't know how in the hell. The only way I can see announcing two games is if they just suck and you're not worried about selling a lot of them. Well, I would actually have initially thought what you mentioned earlier, maybe with Stern and – or, well, any company, any other company, if their licensing agreements are such that they have to get the announcements out. However, I was going to ask, do you think these two games are licensed or not? They act like they have another licensed game, one of them, but I don't know. And that's my sense. I think one is licensed and one is not licensed. That's my prediction since we're making guesses. I don't know that the hand is forced per se. Their latest update that I recall did indicate, as you sort of noted, it is about a year still, if you were. So the speed on doing an order, like if you were to order a whole new P3 platform, it's just as much of a wait now as it was six months ago. You're going to wait a year from date of order, basically. Okay, so if I ordered today in January, I'll have to wait until January 2024. four and in that time two new games are going to be announced like it just doesn't make sense that's yes well the the one the one way uh you know saying aside like license obligations and stuff the the one way i could kind of see it and again this gets more towards my my ignorance about the the modules and such is if let's say the production of these two things is different okay so you've got uh a line that builds p3 platforms and some other line that builds modules if the holdup is on the platforms, putting out the modules to sell to your existing platform-owning base might still be viable.
    38:06
    Because I imagine your logic would probably be, well, Dennis, shouldn't they be taking all those people building modules and have them building systems so that everyone can have the platform and they broaden their customer base? And it's like, yeah, but they're feeling like, okay, this is the pace we're at. And I think they're still trying to, again, from the messages I've seen from Jerry, send out to the customers. It looks like they are still trying to staff up to deal with all of it because clearly they don't want to make people wait a year. But if it's like, yeah, but obviously selling modules does bring in money, so it is a good way to continue the financing. And building modules obviously is easier than building full systems because it's a much smaller unit. And so I think given that, it's just – they might be able to turn out the – based off of everything I've seen, they're turning out modules faster than systems. So it's like – I think they should probably consider contract manufacturing for stuff like that. But I would guess that there is a possibility that the margins just aren't there to be able to do that, sadly. unless you went into it obviously if you didn't go into it planning to do that I mean what would the price increase have to be I agree I think you'd have to price increase it because you wouldn't want to drop your profit margin and they just a few months ago it wasn't around September they increased the prices of like all the modules by most of them by several hundred dollars here's where I'm at on Multimorphic for 2023 and beyond I think Multimorphic P3 the platform the game has been going on for... People know what it is now. There's no more speculation. There's no more, I wonder if they get the killer app. I wonder if all of these engineering things are going to continue to evolve. In my opinion, those days are over.
    40:00
    They're not going to do 4K and retro. They've got so many damn things in this. They may have a new platform in the future, the P4, or whatever the hell it is. They could have that. But I think everybody knows what the Multimorphic P3 is now, and I think the only way that this company stays viable to continue whatever their idea of success is, is through licenses. That's it. I don't think there is any advantage to this platform that they've created, this engineering marvel, the 20 balls, the screen, the motion captured on the screen, the back one. It was cute, and it was innovative five to seven years ago. I think they've capped out. They've met their ceiling. There's nothing that they can put into physically, or they would have already done it or trying to work on it. Nothing they can add. It took them forever. They're like, oh, we've got a fourth flipper now. How about that? New EOS. How about that? No. The growth is too small for innovation. It's already caught up. That's getting them no sales. if you're buying a multi-morphic it's not because you're like oh this is so ingenious you can, no it's not going to happen the idea is done, it's tired, it's old if you don't like the feel of the games you're not going to like the game it's themes if you want to sell games Jerry it's in licensed property now and you're getting to the point where the cost is so much for these games because they have so many materials in them they're heavy that if you increase it any more you might price yourself out I just – I don't think there's a draw to look at this cool TV screen as a play field anymore. I just don't see it.
    41:47
    Well, I do think that the licensing aspect is – and the proof is in – the proof of the pudding is in the eating, right? So I'm sure they are aware because of what Weird Al did. I mean, is Weird Al their best playing game? It's debatable. I would need more time on it. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I like it more than Heist. If I were to have to pick today, I would tell you Heist is their best game, followed by Weird Al, but I don't have enough time on either of them to really probably win. Heist isn't keeping them in business. Well, no.
    42:20
    Heist isn't the big... It sold a lot compared to some of their other prior titles. That's my opinion. The platform is not keeping them in business moving forward. I don't see it.
    42:30
    I think they're stuck with it now. If anything, I think they're stuck. Well, I think the argument of the platform was, as I understood it initially, and maybe that wasn't their primary argument, but it's the one I remember hearing, was this is something where you can own this platform and then you don't need a lot of space, right? You can have multiple games in the square footage of one pinball machine, right? Yeah. It's a particular type of person that that solves a problem for them. and of course the limitation of that is you are stuck in the ecosystem of whatever device does that for you so because remember highway kind of played with that idea too not not to the not nearly to the extent like the true modularity that that multimorphic was doing but you know currently if you were to be in the multimorphic p3 infrastructure you know that ecosystem and you're big into nostalgia the only one there is weird al so i do think moving forward in terms of sales. They may have had some of these things. Obviously, development takes a while. I imagine a lot of these things have been in the pipeline for a while. I would assume and this is a big assumption, but all of my guesses are big assumptions today that they would probably look and say, you know what? Continued growth mandates that we just do licenses. And maybe the third-party development will be where you see the unlicensed original games and that will scratch the itch for people that got into it because they like playing. Because, you know, you always see that demand from like pinheads on pin side oh we want we want unlicensed themes and so yeah i think ultimately that that makes a lot of sense of course when you've got a year-long backlog of p3 system builds um right now i don't see the need to do any sort of licensed reveals unless you had contractual obligations because you how many people are going to get mad when they're told oh you got to wait 12 months to get a it would be better to catch up in my mind to catch up and then say boom here you go. We're doing 38 special, the band. That's our next license. The last point I want to expand on here, Dennis and listeners, is this. I think one of the big pushes for Multimorphic as a company was their innovation, ingenuity. Look at this mechanical marvel. Look at this engineering marvel. That was their push. What I'm saying to you now, In my opinion, I think that technology is too fast. Technology develops too fast for a Stern pinball to make every one of their games technologically new and something exciting, whereas multimorphic P3 will be slowed down by having to retrofit new technology into a platform-based type of product. I think you're going to see that more and more with every release that comes out. You're going to see other companies' innovation soar and Multimorphic continue to struggle because they've got to find a way to put that new damn technology into the one-form-fitting product platform they have and then also retroactively make it to older machines to work. I think it's going to be a mess, and the thing keeping it going is licensing, and you're going to start seeing that mess show itself very soon, if not already. I think it's starting projection mapping. I mean a lot of innovation it just too fast to be able to retrofit it into one I mean pun intended black box Yeah I see where you coming from on it and I agree but I have assumed that the plan was and again total assumption was a pivot on what the marketing was So the initial promotion is this motion detection technology, all this stuff that wasn't in any other pinballs. And the other pinball companies don't seem to be interested in doing screens with multi-ball detection capabilities and all of that. And the older technology, because it's been a few years now, that still will work moving forward. Like the system power, in theory, is still like whatever computer drives it and all of that is probably strong enough for pinball. Sure. Yeah. So a lot of the technological innovations we see from other companies under the hood are things like the node boards make it easier to swap in and out. Not so much to drive more coils than we used to drive. Like we're kind of past those particular phases. I don't think I don't assume that Multimorphic had an intention of say eventually making the P3 go 4K like what would be the other than to brag that it's 4K what does it offer you don't need that resolution your animation quality isn't even fully in my opinion taking advantage of the capabilities of the 1080p system so why would you go 4K other than just to say 4K so I always thought why does everybody in this entire world especially this country continue to buy 4K, 6K, 8K monitors, even though they're not taking advantage of it. But that's almost what they are. That's all they're selling anymore. But I disagree. They're not consuming 4K content. Yeah, watching movies and stuff, I think they do. Okay.
    47:46
    That's why you've seen a push for Netflix offering 4K. I can stream 4K through Amazon Prime. YouTube, I think, is looking into trying. They already do 4K. I think they're looking into 6K. So, no, it's starting – obviously, the technology lags a little bit. Blu-rays have been compliant with 4K for a long time, so people that are still willing to be like, yeah, streaming has been a barrier because our infrastructure and internet isn't – A lot of people's TVs are smaller than the displays in a T3. And I have my – I got my own thing, Zach, where back in the days when people were, like, looking at TVs and stuff under 32 inches, and I'm like, why are you even worried if it's above 720p? Why do you care at that small of a size? But, hey, we all have our own opinions on that stuff. But I think early on, the hook to get you into Multimorphic was look at all of this tech. I've assumed as it would grow, the hook is supposed to be look at our catalog of games.
    48:38
    And not, yeah, no, we are the – you can't be the cutting edge forever unless you keep upgrading. And, of course, you've pointed out that it's the same thing that happens with consoles and why they always have to retire console generation eventually. You can add peripherals. People who have older stuff have to go and buy those new peripherals. But at some point you're like, okay, the technology isn't capable of doing what we need to do anymore, so we upgrade.
    49:02
    Pinball, the number of coils and the lights and all of that, that I think actually can have a longer, much longer end-of-life expectancy than video games does. But obviously when you're 10 years in, I don't think you get to say, look how innovative we are anymore. That's where you want to be able to say, you know, when Xbox and PS5 and Xbox Series X come out, they talk about how many teraflops of processing they can do. Five years in, they talk about how many games are in their catalog. I think it's the same thing here. The plan is to say, look at how many games you can play in the space of one game. That's the value. And it made sense to me until a light bulb went off for me whenever they announced Drained.
    49:44
    But Drained is a third-party game. Exactly. so the catalog thing doesn't make sense to me anymore if we're going to see things like drained come out third party for a module that's $3,500 well there goes that whole I'm going to start collecting nope don't see it especially the prices continue to increase and I don't see it and at the end of the day if a person is collecting one pinball machine just one pinball machine space wise it's usually because of space. A lot of times it's because of money too. If people want to collect something, they'll find a way to collect more than one. That's why you don't find one car that you can change the tires to be an SUV or to change this to be a plane. No. People like collecting shit. They're going to have a Stern Pro if they have one machine or a Stern Premium.
    50:36
    They're going to collect machines and they're going to sit them beside each other because they're cool. That's why everybody collects machines. I don't think it serves a purpose. Just the hitting points that Multimorphic pitched in the past, I just don't think work for the future. But hopefully I'm wrong.
    50:51
    What about American Pinball? Am I wrong with American Pinball? I don't know what you think about American Pinball. What do you think? Zach, what do you think? I mean, you distro for American Pinball, so your livelihood is on the line with their success or failure.
    51:05
    All right, well, all right. No, they don't have enough volume. I was trying to raise the stakes a little bit. It's always nice when American Pinball can produce a nice product, but they're not making or breaking us like some other people could. I heard they got some Oktoberfest coming out. Yeah, we had a handful of Oktoberfest shipped to us that we ordered a while back, and a couple of them sold. So people are still somewhat interested in Oktoberfest. Well, would you like me to start with American Pinball then? Go ahead. What do you think? Okay. All right. I do think that the Dennis Nordman Galactic Tank Force finally comes out. It finally comes out first half of 2023. In fact, I think they're really going to try and have it available at TPF.
    51:47
    And that's the only game that comes out in 2023 from them. That's it. Wow. Yeah, I think they come out with two products this year. I think the first one will be Dennis Nordman's game in the spring, and the other one will be October-ish because Dave Fix has got to have something for his pinball expo. It may not ship next year, but it'll be revealed next year. And I still want to know what the hell is going on with the American Dream, who got selected this last year at expo. There was no announcement. Surely it didn't happen, right? They said it was, yeah, I mean, a big thing, so I would assume so. So I think somebody's probably working on their next launch. So maybe I think that's what we get, the American Dream game in second half.
    52:37
    I don't know what else to say. But they didn't announce a winner, right? Not to my knowledge. And they had a clause, I thought, last year, or 2021, that said that they reserved the right to not pick anyone. So I assume that's what happened. Well, they need to say that, though, then, don't they?
    52:55
    Nobody cares. Oh, okay. All right. Other than the homebrewers that were competing in it, who does it affect?
    53:02
    I don't know. I mean, it would be nice to say something. I agree. But, I mean, we were talking about JJP and how many designers they have on staff. NAP's the same way. It's top-heavy. Got a lot of design talent there. And they're not turning out nearly enough stuff from that crew to warrant going out of company and bringing in other designs like that. I mean, don't forget they also promised that they're going to turn out a Barry Osler game. You know what was a really well-received original theme in pinball in the last couple of years? It was heist.
    53:41
    And I said I don't think heist keeps a company in business. Same goes with American pinball. I don't care how cool Galactic Tank Force could be. it's hard to believe it's still going to sell enough units to make them relevant no and again I feel like I'm talking about some of these things ad nauseum I guess that's what people want when they listen to a podcast from the same people week after week is no to me the value of a game is in how it plays that's what I enjoy however I think the The evidence is irrefutable at this stage that licenses are a guaranteed way to initially print money because they will generate interest by giving a nostalgia hit in particular to people that want to buy pinball. And then obviously what happens in terms of them keeping that game depends upon what that game gives them as a game. Galactic Tank Force doesn't come to the table with any of that. and we're not in the era anymore where people are mostly experiencing these games as a child going into an arcade. It's just different. And this continued reliance on original licenses is not doing them any favors. I think it shows in their production levels. And I have heard that Nordman's GTF is going to be polarizing. It's different.
    55:12
    That's the best way I've heard it described. It's the best way I've heard it described is it's going to be very different and the assessment of someone that purportedly has seen this game is it's going to be a love it or hate it. There's not going to be a lot of middle ground.
    55:27
    I think American Pinball, if they could just find a great license to tie into, they've got the components to make a damn cool game that gets bolted into people's collections. I don't think they're far off. And I agree. I've heard a lot of very positive things about their quality. I've you know historically I'd heard very good things about their rule sets but you know there's been staff changes there that concern people kind of like what happened with spooky huge and they struggle to produce fast unlike spooky which is a problem and I think they were on the right path even though I didn't think it was a great license to go with with Hot Wheels but the problem was Hot Wheels was set up so much to be something that people would be willing to operate and they launched it right at the start of the pandemic it wasn't their fault but i wonder if that has left the impression oh licenses are not the way to go look we took hot wheels everyone knows hot wheels and it just didn't do as well as we thought it would do and it's like you know it's management decision making too because let's not forget when that game was launched i mean that's the personal bias but i even had questions as to what do you why are you shooting yourselves in the foot on any ounce of marketing that you can have. So it made me question just bigger picture decision makings in general.
    56:53
    Because I think, you know, you launch a game, you're creating a first impression. Let's create a good one for the majority of people that are going to be buying your game to consume. So, I mean, there's been a lot of staffing changes since Hot Wheels. I have and continue to have low confidence because I mean Legends of Valhalla a third party developed game is the only thing that's come out really since then and they've been trickling and then we hear that there's going to be more models and then they change from a two skew tier to three skews and there's like every decision doesn't I shouldn't say every but most of the public decisions make no sense to me you know Going out there and talking about winning three games a year, I don't understand it. It seems like a company that hired a bunch of designers, doesn't have enough engineers, and his marketing team isn't going after the licenses that clearly are working for all their competitors.
    57:56
    I think if they want to sell games, I'm going to put this out there, Dennis and listener. If they want to sell games, there's only one original theme that could work, and it's a semi-original theme, and that's it. and that is a sequel or a prequel to Whitewater because you have Nordman. That one, I think, works better than a typical original theme. But otherwise, I don't know what to tell you guys over there.
    58:18
    Unless you guys are content with selling 200 of a unit every two years. And in that case, I just don't know why you're wasting your time. Given their staff size, I just don't know. My theory, again, all speculation. My speculation is Ametron is carrying this company, and I think they're going to get sick of it. I think they're going to lose impatience. Sure. What about Dutch Pinball? I don't know much to say about that because Big Lebowski, they were in a hole. They were in a big-ass hole. They went bankrupt. It was a fucking mess. But last year or so, they're still making Lebowskis. They're still collectible. Still a good game. They're still updating this. I've not seen anything wrong here recently. So they're on the up and up, but they're low-key. I think if they come out with another game it better be licensed, it better hit people it better be able to produce it and that's it I don't have much else to say about Dutch yeah I mean my prediction is they continue to do big Lebowski's, I'm amazed they've survived I still am very skeptical they ever come out with another game I think they're just trying to make it's working for them the way they've got it right now there's just this perpetual constant demand and it's allowing them to try and make right by all the people that got burned early, which is admirable, but I don't know. I think a lot of people are in it either. They're like, okay, I know I'm going to get the game. It got around a lot, so people know Lebowski, so they know if they like it or not. And after this, I just don't know if anyone's going to – they don't build fast, and so I don't know if anyone's really going to trust them on a new game. I think they're just sort of like – some people have their fingers crossed that they're going to keep selling Lebowski's to new individuals, that old buyers are going to be made whole. And then the new buyers kind of feel like they're doing a solid for the old buyers by getting a game, and they're guaranteed via the protections that they're going to get their game. And that works for Lebowski, and beyond that, I don't think it works. But I don't – I mean, it depends what they want to do. I would think they would be, after the Lebowski experience, just be done and be like, let's just wrap it up and just go back to being hobbyists. But we'll see. People make those mistakes. There are probably some other manufacturers out there, smaller manufacturers.
    60:31
    At this point, I'm not knowledgeable enough to even to guess. I mean, we've had some manufacturers that have advertised stuff for a couple of years, head scratcher kind of stuff, but have never released anything still to my knowledge. So home pin. Yeah, I just home pin got spinal tap out. Yeah, like home pin, pinball adventures, whatever. Pinball adventures is close. We'll talk about it once it, you know, once it once it happens. but there was a lot of information there on the pinball show episode 120 on stern pinball production what's coming out in the future as well as all the other manufacturers as to what their last year has looked like and a sneak peek into possible 2023 development and game creation there you have it thanks for listening to part two of episode 120 of the pinball show damn that's some good stuff but you ain't heard nothing yet Make sure to check out part three of episode 120 of The Pinball Show. Check it out, like right now. Go listen to it.