King Kong: Mod Breakdown - In Before the Lock Episode 26

In Before the Lock Live Streams·video·1h 7m·analyzed·Apr 22, 2025

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

King Kong mod breakdown: gameplay depth, Pro vs Premium, and modding potential with industry guests.

Summary

Rob and Davey from Electric Playground host Jamie Birchall (JBS Show) for an in-depth breakdown of Stern's King Kong pinball machine. The discussion covers the game's art direction, gameplay mechanics including the river diverter and tower system, differences between Pro and Premium versions, modding opportunities, and the recent playtest event at Stern's facility with ~33-35 attendees. The hosts praise Keith Elwin's design and the game's complexity while addressing community concerns about thematic coherence between island and city settings.

Key Claims

Stern King Kong is Keith Elwin's latest release, following Dungeons & Dragons
high confidence · Rob and Davey discuss Elwin releases as major industry events; Jamie confirms attending Stern facility to play the game
The Empire State Building is a licensed asset that cannot be used in the game
medium confidence · Jamie discusses licensing constraints: 'I knew the licensing of the Empire State Building was going to be an issue, guys. Right. I mean, you can't...just put the Empire State Building as a licensed wonder of the world'
Approximately 33-35 people attended the Stern King Kong playtest event
high confidence · Rob: 'We had a joke of over under 35. Rob, how do you I think we were right at around 33 35 people.'
King Kong's Premium and Pro versions have different gameplay mechanics, particularly with the gong on Premium
high confidence · Rob details: 'The gong actually like kicks the ball back out and kind of blocks it. So we're seeing a situation where you're getting kind of different gameplay between the two'
The river diverter is activated via an action button and prevents ball holding beyond a time limit
high confidence · Rob explains the mechanic: 'by hitting the button, you bring this diverter down...if you hold this flipper up for too long, the river will fall out from underneath you basically'
Davey is purchasing a King Kong LE, partly because LEs are produced sooner
high confidence · Davey: 'I'm getting an LE. Um, but mainly mainly because um they just get produced sooner. So, means that um you know, we get access to the game earlier'
King Kong's Kong figure is 3D printed
medium confidence · Rob states: 'King Kong's actually 3D printed, Davey.' Later clarified by Ellen's comment about the desk model being 3D printed
Travis Murie scored 700 million on the Pro version on his first game
high confidence · Rob: 'we moved from the premium to the pro and he put up 700 million. Wow. His first pro game. He hit this he hit this center spinner 12 times in a row'

Notable Quotes

“Whenever there's an Elwin release cuz it's kind of like, you know, it's big news in the pinball world, isn't it? Whenever, you know, the king releases a new game.”
Davey (Stumbler Pinball)@ 4:00 — Establishes Keith Elwin's status as a premier designer whose releases are major industry events
“I went in with a preconceived notion, Rob, that this game should have my New York feel to it. Being a New Yorker, I want to see the Empire State Building. The minute I saw it, I forgot about that.”
Jamie Birchall@ 9:34 — Illustrates how the final art package can override initial expectations and licensing constraints shape design decisions
“Look, I'm an enthusiast just like you are. Okay, let's watch this together, guys.”
David Vaness (Barrels of Fun)@ 16:51 — Exemplifies collaborative spirit among manufacturers in the tight-knit pinball industry
“I would say it's definitely one of the best art packages um that they've come up with. I told Stern this specifically in the in the meeting.”
Davey@ 18:44 — Professional endorsement of Kong's visual design from an experienced collector
“if you hold this flipper up for too long, the river will fall out from underneath you basically. So you actually cannot hold that ball there uh for a particularly long amount of time.”
Rob@ 23:41 — Describes the innovative river diverter mechanic that adds strategic depth and time management element
“no matter what you're doing, you're always kind of building this thing that's always going to present itself as a challenge in the middle of everything else you're doing.”

Entities

RobpersonDaveypersonJamie BirchallpersonKeith Elwinperson George Gomezperson Gary Sternperson Jeremy Packerperson Zach Sharpeperson

Signals

?
product_launch: King Kong released by Stern with Pro and Premium versions; approximately 33-35 people attended exclusive playtest at Stern facility
high · Rob and Davey both attended Stern facility event and played multiple versions of the game; Jamie confirms getting Kong Pro at Eureka Heights
~
sentiment_shift: Community sentiment shifted from negative (initial art trailer) to positive (gameplay footage release) within same day
high · Rob: 'And that's where this um you know it's too purple, the colors aren't right...And then it was later that evening uh that the uh the gameplay stream uh got released...sort of had pretty much the same reaction I did...It all became really super positive'
?
design_innovation: River diverter mechanic with time-limit trap feature prevents indefinite ball holding; integrated tower climbing system with center spinner rewards and hurry-up timer
high · Rob detailed explanation of river diverter: 'if you hold this flipper up for too long, the river will fall out from underneath you basically' and tower system: 'no matter what you're doing, you're always climbing the tower'
?
product_strategy: Stern appears to be equalizing Premium and Pro art packages to reduce LE FOMO, contrasting with past games like Jaws
medium · Rob: 'there's definitely been some chatter about maybe Stern is like actually actually trying to drive the premium to be, you know, the big one so that you don't have this kind of FOMO thing' and Davey: 'like a a Jaws was because it just doesn't look that different'
?
licensing_signal: Empire State Building and iconic Kong imagery unavailable as licensed IP; Stern positioned game as unlicensed but Kong-inspired with island setting instead of NYC

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

0:03

[Music] [Applause] [Music] What's up everybody? Welcome to In Before the Lock, episode number 26. I'm Rob with the Electric Playground. Davey with Stumbler Pinball. How you doing, buddy? Hey, Rob. I'm really good, man. How are you? Good. I'm excited about the Blues. They're not This is not the Blues, but Okay. Playing hockey, baby. We're in the playoffs. Do you know Do you know I used to play hockey in Australia? Ice hockey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Little known fact. Nice. Well, my video's popping. Uh woo, baby. All right. We got a packed show for you guys. Uh, as always, let us know how the audio is. Um, we're always trying to figure that out, but we hope it's good for you. Um, we're coming off uh a new release with King Kong. We're going to be talking about all that. Today, uh, I'm going to be talking about my favorite thing about doing this show, which is always getting to play these games before Davey, uh, which is which is awesome. Are you least favorite? Are you got some uh, FOMO over there? Are you in on this? Are you wanting to play it? What's your Oh, yeah. I'm loving it. I'm definitely in. Um, yeah. I'm I'm really excited about, man. And I mean, I'm always excited whenever there's an Elwin release cuz it's kind of like, you know, it's big news in the pinball world, isn't it? Whenever, you know, the king releases a new game. Um, and this one hasn't disappointed. So, I'm definitely very very excited about it. So, you're in like in in I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting it. Uh, there's a couple of us that are getting them flown over here. Uh, so it's an I'm getting an LE. Um, but mainly mainly because um they just get produced sooner. So, it means that um you know, we get access to the game earlier and you know, I get to look at and play it sooner. That's what they say. Big Tonyy's letting us know audio is good. The man that I don't know if he's getting the game is Jamie Bell. Jamie, how you doing, buddy? Welcome to the show. I'm good, guys. How are you? Hey, Jamie. How are you, man? Hey, Jamie. Thank you so much for having me, boys. I appreciate coming on. Jamie with the JBS show. Um putting out content like all of us, or at least trying to, man. Tell us about uh who you are, Jamie, cuz I know you've done some amazing stuff recently, but not everyone knows you now. Formerly Jamie from the Wormhole, right? And I went on on my own JBS show uh doing podcasts, starting back up streaming and uh on Twitch and YouTube. We'll get that going. We're going to be building a mobile rig so I can move it around from location to location uh rather than these static rigs that I had before. And uh good times. Yeah. And I got to see Robin again. I I see Robin too much. She's sick of me already. We're all over the place, baby. No, Jamie had us at the wormhole booth here at TPF recently. Uh, hosted the Twippies. Um, you guys are known for lots of streams, right? And and and I think your big thing is like streaming pretty obscure titles. Um, tell us about just all the titles that you played and streamed. Obviously got to know really well. I think that's really unique uh for content. That was one of my favorite parts of being with the wormhole was the eclectic 250 machines that were in that collection, still in that collection from a Techno Play to a Zachary to a Bell Games to uh you know many different manufacturers, Taito from Brazil. So I've gotten to play all these crazy machines that most people have never even seen. So that's kind of fun. And now, are you doing something different with the show now that you don't have access to those gyms? Yeah, you know, we're going to be really more focusing on interviewing uh people of pinball, telling their stories, as well as a new show that I just started with uh Kale Hernandez of the Electric Bat Arcade and Retro Ralph Ronzio. We're going to be doing uh something called the Pinball Roundtables. That'll be on my channel once a month and uh just having fun. Nice. What's So, tell us a little bit about that. Uh what what what what invol what's involved in a pinball roundt you know we just decide we become very very close friends from pinball me Ralph and Kale and we have a chat and it's hilarious and we just talk pinball and we talk to each other for the last 3 months almost on the daily and I said wouldn't it be funny if we just did this as a podcast for ourselves and and just let people in on the things that we get to do for this great hobby. and we recorded the first one at Stern. Uh Josh uh Zack Sharp, excuse me, said, "Hey, there's an empty conference because we were going to leave a little early." And Zach goes, "No, use the conference room in the back." And so there you go. There is. And then we did a live show. That picture right there, Robin, got me on the Pelon this morning. I'll tell you that. You know, when I was recording that, I was like, Jamie's not going to be too happy with his angle, but No sir. That got me right on the pelon, Davey. That picture, right? Yeah. Hey, man. It's always good to be aspirational. Let's We're going to talk guys all about Kong. We got a bunch of people coming in uh that are here to hear us talk about Kong. You got a couple shills in the room between Davey and I already established Premium Ellie. But honestly, man, I I I think I haven't got a new start in a while. Bond was my last one, and I've been kind of chomping at the bed at what, and there's been some obvious nos just for me personally. And this one was was was a was a yes. Jamie, I don't even know if you buy machines. So, I didn't have to buy machines when I was with the wormhole. And but but the cool part of my new affiliation with with Eureka Heights that I'm doing a lot of going to be doing a lot of streaming out of is they get pretty much every stern and every new machine that comes out and they put it on location there. You got a chance, Robin, to check out uh Eureka Heights time during the whippies. So, yeah, they're getting a Kong. They're getting a Kong Pro. Um, which I'm excited to get because I got to put I got to flip it about 10 times Kong between the the Pro and the Premium. And I really like the Pro. Okay. Yeah, I'm getting I'm getting texts from people right now. Nick uh is telling me the Pro. He's thinking about it. They had five machines there. So, like I got to play both of them quite a bit. At least a little bit more than whenever I did that for D and D, which is the first time I think they only had two. That's right. Um, and uh, I definitely I mean there's a lot more visibility into some key areas on the Pro. The Pro is more than fine. Um, and it's it's sick. So, so also just to set the table because because uh, Davey and I were kind of talking about we're not like the biggest Kong fan, so we're not missing the movies, which is obviously a huge part of the feedback on the art and everything. Where where do you stand on that that point, just so we know? Yeah, I went in with a preconceived notion, Rob, that this game should have my New York feel to it. Being a New Yorker, I want to see the Empire State Building. I wanted to climb the Empire State Building. I want all these things by planes surrounding the Empire State Building. That as Jaime's preconceived notion almost went also more art deco, dark colors rather than the purples and such. Right. The minute I saw it, I forgot about that. And I knew I knew the licensing of the Empire State Building was going to be an issue, guys. Right. I mean, you can't David, you can't just put the Empire State Building as a licensed wonder of the world, right? So, you can't in St. Louis, we put the arch in everything. Is that really true? I mean, literally, it is in people's logos. Is that Is that a licensed asset? No. The Empire State Interesting. It didn't even occur to me that that was even a thing with this one. Yeah. Um, I mean, and in terms of I mean, for me, for me personally, I mean, I thematically, I'd always hue towards sort of jungle themes and stuff, you know, I love Congo and sort of that whole sort of palm trees and sort of jungle sort ofesque sort of theme. So, when I heard that it was on an island, I was really excited about that. But, of course, the other side of me, like the modding side of me, realizes that, you know, I've got a lot of experience sort of producing buildings and things like that. So, if it was in New York City, it probably would have been uh better for me from a modding point of view that I could replace all these buildings, you know, in a a lot of the same way that I did Godzilla. So, it's kind of like a double-edged sword for me that it was going to be on an island. Um, but they've sort of they've sort of done a bit of both, haven't they, with this one. Um, and that's one of the, again, it's one of the criticisms that sort of popped up on Pinside is that that, you know, they've done sort of this island jungle theme on the one hand, but then Kong's also within the city, um, both within the game play and sort of, you know, where he's positioned with the buildings in the background. What do you guys think of that? Yeah, I mean, I I've definitely heard a lot about it feeling like it's jumping around. A lot of questions about where is the story coming from? I guess it's the you're you're actually the the woman in the story line. You're not uh King Kong, which is very different from Godzilla, which is a reference point for us. Um I do feel like Well, I don't know. I mean, I didn't really think too much about that when I was there. So, I'm definitely the airwaves are kind of getting me into that thinking. How about How about you, Jamie? Well, I they told us right off the bat when we went out uh front to the lobby to start playing it that you're going to be playing as the woman and I could care less. It was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, I just didn't care about it anymore, Dave. Yeah. No, and I I mean, I'm I'm I completely agree with you. It's not But as we were saying earlier, you know, King Kong isn't a huge story in both Rob and my life. you know, I I I haven't even seen the original 1940s film or whenever it was made. 1933. 1933, you know, so I haven't even seen that. Um I haven't seen uh Peter Jackson's version um which was 1990s, was it? I don't know. Yeah, there's there's been three major Kong movies. The 33, then there was a remake in the 80s where he climbed the uh Twin Towers, and then there was Peter Jackson's remake, and then all the Skull Island. It's interesting though because on the other side of that, whether you've seen Godzilla's or not, the I the iconography of him climbing the building, having the woman is, I would say, is more implanted in our brains than anything in the Godzilla universe. And that is lacking. Um there's a lot of talk about like the collectibility of the LE um and whether or not like the fact that it doesn't kind of hit that core desire is that gonna sell out the the unit which there's kind of all over the map on whether it's actually sold out but it seems like there's plenty still out there. Um so it's interesting. I mean you know they they Stern said it when we were there. They said like you know the book is out of license just like Alice in Wonderland and we've kind of taken our own spin on it. Um, and it's it's not a licensed uh property in that sense. And clearly they stood away stayed away from the buildings and I think stayed away from the damsel in distress even because they felt like maybe that was taken from a story line that they would have to get licensed for. Have you heard that Jamie or you know I was talking to George and I don't remember asking him that. So I don't remember that. Sorry about that. Yeah. No, some people are saying for sure it's popped up on Pinide. Uh it might have even been from the Owen interview uh with Joel maybe the other night. Yeah. So Triple Drain did a three-hour interview with uh George Gomez uh Gary Stern and Keith Ellwin and Jeremy Packer. Great great interview if you guys haven't heard it. I haven't seen it yet, but it's it's on my radar and I've been meaning to. We've been away this weekend, so I haven't had a chance to sort of catch up on that stuff, but yeah, it's three hours. It's three hours. They section off a bit of time for it. Yeah. Um, but so what I what I one other thing I'd like to talk about is just sort of um release day uh and sort of the the trajectory of the game as it sort of went through release day. Um, so the uh the first sort of trailer video reveal um uh got uh released um and obviously then it hits pinside and all the sort of the reviews of that trailer start rolling in. And that's where this um you know it's too purple, the colors aren't right, comic book Kong, you know, isn't what it was what I was expecting. This is probably when the most I guess negativity on the art sort of came to the forefront. Um, and then it was later that evening uh that the uh the gameplay stream uh got released. At least it was my evening. It might have been your afternoon um that the gameplay stream got released. And it was then that um you know I I think particularly for me, you know, like I I loved the trailer. I loved the art. I had no problem with any of it. Um, you know, I thought it looked great, but it was it was after the gameplay trailer that really got me excited about how it how it um how it played and how it looked and what the animations were like and things like that. And the Pinsside thread sort of had pretty much the same reaction I did. It all became really super positive, a lot more excited. A lot of people that said that they were on the fence and now are definite and things like that. Um, what about you guys, Jamie? Did you sort of have the same reaction I did to both of those events or did you have a different uh trajectory with the way that you thought about the game? I'll tell you what was really weird. We watched the gameplay video at Barrels of Fun in their conference room. Okay. All right. When we were touring Dune, that's a true story. Wow. David Vaness David Vaness said, "Hey, there's something coming out today. You guys want to see it?" Yeah. It just came out five minutes ago. and he put it up on the on the big screen and we all together thought it looks pretty cool, right? And I was pretty excited because I'm getting to see it in two days from there uh from there. So yeah, that was a strange set of circumstances. Did he say, "Look, we got more video footage than they do, so it's all good." No, he just he just said, "Look, I'm an enthusiast just like you are. Okay, let's watch this together, guys." And so we did. It was really kind of cool, actually. I I really love that attitude, too, isn't it? Because um you know, ultimately that's that's why we're all in this, isn't it? Is because we're all we all love pinball. And it actually reminds me of um you know, seeing uh uh you know, Jack Danger and, you know, guys from the other teams back when uh X-Men was out. It was probably Expo, wasn't it? And they were all in a they were all in a room and a side room like playing each other's games and just having a great time. And you know, I think that maybe as uh you know, people standing on the outside looking in, we kind of imagine them all sort of walking past each other and scowlling, you know, as they sort of check out each other's games. But I think the reality is quite different. The reality is complete different. Just go to TPF and see them when we're all setting up, Robin, right? We're all setting up our booths and they're walking through and Chris Turner is talking to Jerry at at Multimorphic and they're talking to Jersey Jack and they're talking to Spooky and No, they're they're very friendly. Much more friendly than you think they are. Yeah, that's that's a really good thing to hear. I didn't I didn't watch too the video too closely because I knew I was playing it and I didn't want to, you know, taint the the reality as we all know is once you actually play the game, all that goes away. So, it was imminent for me, which was nice. Um, I I'll say that, you know, I I've played early on a lot of games now over the last couple years. X-Men certainly gave me this like, holy moment. Um, and I think that that Keith is really pushing the boundaries on his ball paths. Uh, you couple that with like knowing that Stern's going to invest in it, knowing that he made it, knowing it's beautiful. I mean, regardless of whether or not it looks like a movie or whatever, like I would I would say it's definitely one of the best art packages um that they've come up with. I told Stern this specifically in the in the meeting. I was like, I like that none of the art packages are like clearly the best or clearly the worst. Um it makes me feel really comfortable about get the getting the premium because look, there's just not enough in it to to make the LE worth it like I think like a a Jaws was because it just doesn't look that different. And that's that makes me feel good about my decision. I feel like I can spend, you know, 9500 or whatever and not have that FOMO um so much and get an amazing game. So, I personally like the decisions that they made. Um there's definitely been some chatter about maybe Stern is like actually actually trying to drive the premium to be, you know, the big one so that you don't have this kind of FOMO thing because clearly people are like sitting on the sidelines on the LE. Um and they've been doing that for a while now. Um so maybe maybe they're being smart about But I don't really know. Well, let's talk a little bit about the um the actual experience of of going to the uh to the Stern premises and playing the game, guys. Um you know, uh you know, you guys are both in a very unique uh position at the moment in that, you know, you're probably from a consumer point of view, you're one of I mean, how many people were at the event the other day? We had a joke of over under 35. Rob, how do you I think we were right at around 33 35 people. Yeah, it was uh it was more than than what was D and D. Uh I'll give you guys a little bit of footage of uh some of behind that. We started off with everyone taking pictures of Keith and he had this great pose which was fun. Uh uh we got a little bit of a tour of the facility. So, we'll go ahead and play that for you guys. Last time we were there, they weren't making games. No one was uh there. It was early January, so the entire place was effectively closed. So, a lot more energy there. Um but again, they had five machines. Um and uh it it just there's just so many ball paths on this game. Um so many shots to to be focused on. My favorite part is that the these Kong targets on the left hand side and the left flipper. Uh it's pretty easy to feed that left flipper. Uh you can cradle up with the left flipper and hold on to it and decide if you want to go high for two shots or if you want to try to get the Kong targets. Uh you do have to clear clear those Kong targets twice to get the main multiball going. So you do have to go up there a lot. Um there's also uh kind of similar to Dn D, which I know a lot more people have played that uh you can feed that upper right flipper uh pretty effectively um allowing you to build that into the strategy. And there's two shots on that. Um kind of reminds me of like a foo uh or uh I don't know. There's a lot of shots from Elwin where you have two shots from that upper right hand flipper. Uh but I felt like it really incorporates those two in the strategy. Um lot of talk about the pro uh being great. Um you're missing the gong on the right, you're missing the train, and you're missing the spider, but like all those elements are still there. Um what's interesting about the premium is that the gong actually like kicks the ball back out and kind of blocks it. So we're seeing a situation where you're getting kind of different gameplay between the two. Um, which I think is a little bit rare, but that's probably the only difference in terms of gameplay, isn't it? You know, I think so. The the spider definitely doesn't make a difference. Uh, the the physical lock, there's virtual locks on the on that. But as far as I mean, I love that there's actual drop targets on the the the Pro, right? Like, I think that would be really missing. Um, otherwise, uh, did you have a tough time? It took me two or three games, Robin, to figure out the river diverter. Um, but once I figured out using the action button, that part I forgot about the river, then you could really trap up to the top left and it's almost like a mini danger room up there, uh, decide to hit the two shots or to to to get the Kong letters. really. Yeah, let me let me see if I can kind of talk talk to you guys about that because that is a really cool feature that at the same time didn't take me that long to figure out. Whereas like for some reason like even on Dn D I'm like kind of nervous about using that center thing. So, so there's a So, this piece of plastic right here, um, I don't know exactly if it folds up or folds down, but you you see the the button in the middle like flashing a lot. And basically, by hitting the button, you bring this diverter down. So, whenever you hit this center shot and bring it around, you actually get it to this flipper. And if you hold up that flipper, the ball just stops right there. Like, it's you feel like you're really under control. Um whereas uh if you don't have it active, it'll just come down here and it'll kind of pass through this gate right here, which is kind of interesting. Uh the other thing that's cool is that if you hold this flipper up for too long, the river will fall out from underneath you basically. So you actually cannot hold that ball there uh for a particularly long amount of time. And then there's there's a ton of icons on this thing, which gets me really excited because I know uh after playing like Avengers with the targets on the left, like I know there's going to be a lot of depth to that. Um, and I hate to go back to X-Men, but there's all these lights that don't do anything. And with with that one, it's like I know he's going to make these lights work. So, I'm in, baby. Put me in. These uh these center inserts here, the yellow ones with the arrows, are they um are they bonus qualifiers? this thing if I understand. So, so I got to play uh a lot with Travis Murie. I was posting like 150 200 million and and we moved from the premium to the pro and he put up 700 million. Wow. His first pro game. He hit this he hit this center spinner 12 times in a row and it was like building up this huge value. I was like, "Come on, buddy." Um but uh so so these so the way I understand these lights here in the center is um they're always you're always climbing the tower. So there is a tower in this game. It's just not physical. Uh no matter what you're doing, you're always climbing the tower and once you get to the top, there's a hurry up on this shot right here. So you got to feed this flipper and then you got to hit that shot and it's on a timer. So, like I feel like if I understand it correctly, no matter what you're doing, you're always kind of building this thing that's always going to present itself as a challenge in the middle of everything else you're doing. And that was like really exciting for me to to contemplate how I would play that. Just had a comment from the side saying the river diverter is one of his favorite things about that's from Flipnick. Um, hey Nick, how you going mate? Um, river diverter is one of his favorite things about the game. He's here. He's here to push the pro, so let us let us have it. Yeah. But I love the I love the fact that you can't trap up for too long and then up a flipper before the before the ground fall. Like that's such an old school like video game trope, isn't it? You know, like, you know, hanging out, you know, like from frogger days even, you know, with the with the logs sort of, you know, falling under the river line and and dying as a result. I'd very much like that. Yeah. So that's really cool. I love that idea. So, so I'll talk you through the Pro has like a plastic flat plastic plane. So, that's kind of funny. Um, the plane in the Pro is flat plastic. Uh, I do like how visible it is over here. So, you you don't have the train, so you can you can get this like kind of kickback. I think they call it the punchback. Uh, you can actually see what's going on with that better. You can see the scoop better. Uh, the the gorilla doesn't King Kong doesn't move, but he looks the same. Um, this was So, King Kong's actually 3D printed, Davey. Um, I wanted to really throw that out for you. Yeah. Um, well, that's that's very interesting. Um, because well, I mean, I've been talking a lot with Paul Jazz Jazzbuche about this. Um, because obviously he's quite interested in the Kong in this game. Uh, uh, for those that don't know, Jazz Buchche was the modder behind Atomic Godzilla and Godzilla. So, obviously he's looking very, uh, he's very interested in the the Kong. Um, but one of the complications of this is obviously Kong interacts with the ball. So if you're looking to paint him up, um, then you know that ball interaction is, uh, going to be a complexity to deal with because the paint's going to rub off, you know. So whatever you do, it's going to have to be quite um, quite robust um, so you know, paint doesn't end up flaking off over a 100 games or 200 games or whatever. Um, did you find out what technology they used to do him then, Rob? Because No. And and honestly, like looking at these pictures, you can't see it as much. I mean, there's always a chance that one of the machines we were looking at, it was just like really faint lines that just kind of helped you understood how it was made originally, but then they actually they're doing multiple levels of post-process to make it look great. I'm not saying it looks like a 3D printed object. It's just that, you know, we as builders all know that it's really about the finishing process. uh sometimes with this thing is not about necessarily, you know, where it originated from. Um yeah, we've got a got a comment here that said um yeah, that uh Ellen said that the model on his desk was 3D printed, so it might not be 3D printed that, you know, that's that's sort of like the comment I was making. You know, I think when it comes to these kind of and it's it's like the gong as well. I mean, obviously the gong is a bash target. Um and if you look at that gong, if you just sort of pull him up again, Rob, sorry. The gong. So, if you zoom in on that, um, you can see that essentially it's it's single color and they've they've just put a a bit of a a black wash over the top of it. Um, and then possibly that wash is sort of pulled around his eyes and things like that. Now, you would have to think that around the skull area, the ball's not going to interact with that at all, is it? It's only going to interact with sort of the lower bit of that of that gong. So, um, so there's less of a risk of, and, you know, I wouldn't have even thought that something like this would be painted. It's it's, um, more likely that they'll mix the paint in with, you know, whatever material they're using to produce the gong and it just comes out that way. And then you're not running the risk of sort of paint coming off when the ball's striking it. And that's always the problem we have as modders is that we don't really have access to these uh, levels of manufacturing to be able to do these kinds of things. I mean, even guys like Leor, who's, you know, you know, pretty much at the top of the game when it comes to modding, you know, he's had huge problems with uh bash toys uh for things like the Hobbit and paint coming off uh of his models. So, you know, I don't think there's a modder yet who has done a Bash toy that's been uh resilient or found a process for that. So, um you know, that one's that one's out in the open. So, anybody looking to redo the Gong needs to consider that. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, I will say kind of getting into like some of the mod stuff I'm I've noticed and and we're going to we're going to bounce all over on this, so bear with us, guys. Um, there's a lot of space for So, both the Pro and the Premium have this skull right here, and there's a ton of space there for something super interesting. Um, I felt like in general, I kind of got the feeling there was a good amount of space for some really fun stuff. I loved this graphic on these slings. Uh, so I think there's a bunch of opportunities for that. I think there was, uh, not really mod related, but I love how they did the locks on this ramp here in the middle. Um, ton of fun. Uh, so those are like LEDs like embedded into the ramp. And I'm not sure how they did it. And then of course this this habit trail here, which is related to this big shot that I was mentioning uh, here off the right flipper. Like that's just really really fun movement. Um, and it's a tough shot in the game, so it's not like you're like kind of kind of hitting that huge payoff shot like you are in like Bond or something. It's it's it's semi- rare. Um, so I really like that. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I think um I mean for me personally, it's that back left corner that holds the most appeal from a modding point of view. you know, redoing that skull with like a, you know, a resin waterfall coming out the mouth that's, you know, got LEDs underneath of it to produce a water pattern and then, you know, changing it up, uh, you know, to, you know, you know, blood in the water. Very similar to sort of what I did with the boy. Find that really appealing. And, um, just behind that skull too, there's there's a volcano. You can sort of see it in the background on that earlier shot. Yeah, I was hoping I could get Yeah, there it is there. So, there's a volcano sort of behind him on the right. So, um, when they first announced, um, you know, the island theme, it was kind of rocks and lava that I thought had the most possibility for me. Um, in terms of, you know, sort of my usual stick, which is like, you know, resin with LEDs underneath lighting it up and, you know, doing sort of like a fire pattern or a pulsing lava. So seeing that volcano in the background, the skull next to it, you know, I thought that the justosition of, you know, water coming out of the waterfall and lava from a, you know, volcano next to it could work really really well. So that's the bit that I'm probably going to focus on first. Um, here's a here's a look at the the river thing goes up and down. Didn't even realize how it worked, but Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, lots lots of blur in these official uh shots from from Stern. um yeah, there's a little bit of a kind of opportunity here with this display, but yeah, you can see that again in the Pro, the premium, and in the LE, you're going to have that skull plastic back there. So, yeah, definitely we'll see lots of options on that one, I'm sure. So, one thing that I thought could be incorporated more into So, we've got uh and you mentioned it earlier, Jamie, is kind of like the the art decoy sort of style of New York and stuff. And we've sort of, you know, you can see that on the LE back glass. Um, and obviously on the LE side rails, there's sort of like an art decoy pattern as well, but it's not um reflected massively on the playfield itself, is it? So, I thought that um you know, being able to sort of pull that in uh might be a really cool cool idea or cool thing to do. Um I guess the complexity there is how it relates to the very ticky sort of island theme that's sort of going on elsewhere. Um, and you know whether those two things work together or not.

33:17

Go ahead. Yeah, I it's it's I don't know. I'm still kind of I I I wish I would have evaluated from an island versus city. I guess there's a lot of comments about how the stuff happening on the screen isn't um you're just kind of moving from one one area to the next. There's not a lot of cohesiveness there. So, um it'll be interesting to see how how folks handle the mods in terms of, you know, which direction they go with that as well. Yeah, I think that area around the uh the spider is really interesting as well and the water and um cuz it's kind of, you know, there's a lot of monsters around that uh section as well, isn't there? I think there's a pterodactyl and there's a crocodile and um you know, the idea of the river sort of flowing through that and you know, is it a river, is it swamp land or whatever. Um, so I think that area is really interesting as well. A lot of flat plastics that could be replaced there. Um, so there's some opportunities there for some uh, ambitious modders. Don't you think the spider will be the first one that they mod out for the Pro just because it's just the magnet from underneath that pulls the spider down? Is it? So could you confirm that when you play the case? Okay. All right. Well, that's that's really interesting because I thought it might have been um coil controlled like a bit like how the Overlord is in Foo Fighters. No, it is just a magnet underneath the spider that springs it down. Okay. And the magnets's already there on the pro, so I I can't see how someone's not going to print money making that. Okay. That's That's Yeah. And it did feel a little It felt a little empty without that. So, I definitely think having something there to make it kind of tied to the storyline um would be good um as well. So, so Jamie, what's uh So, so Jamie, what's the vibe been from your perspective? I don't know if you've been following Pinside. We saw definitely a sea change kind of happening there. Have you been feeling like people are hating on anything specific or you know? No, I haven't really the the the p from the podcast that we've put out, we've got nothing but people that are excited about playing and shooting and flipping this game, right? Uh from the pro to the premium or le I I found that the pro it, you know, and Keith alluded to this. This is there's the same shots from the pro to the premium. They're the same. You know, the only major difference is obviously it's virtual locks and when you start your Kong multiball, there's one more shot you have to do on the pro to activate and that was that right. Got to hit the right loop. Yep. Right loop. Yeah. So, no, my perspective is that that it it is a fantastic machine. I love shooting it. I put about 10 to 12 plays on on them and uh I can't wait to play it even more. So based on that, based on your initial sort of and I know it's really difficult to tell these things based on 10 games. It's sort of like you know you need to get them in your house to like really get a feel for it and that you know that changes from one month to the next and everything but I mean just purely on sort of what you what your experience with this one is so far guys. Do you see it as being where do you see it on the ladder of Keith Ellen games? Oh, I think it's one of the best Keith Owen games right off the bat. Is it, you know, we were discussing in length, is it a Godzilla killer? I don't know. I think that's a little premature to be a Godzilla killer, but I definitely think it's one of his best machines on on theme. On theme, it's where I'm going to tend to go with Elwin, which is Jurassic and Godzilla. Like all the other ones are great games, but as far as owning them, they they don't do it as much for me. Um, but this one I I don't own Godzilla anymore. I'll I have to admit it. I don't have it anymore. It's very sad. Um, so so being in that in that bucket, it's like I feel like I'm bringing back something very familiar. Um, and uh, but also just new, right? Like I mean it's just gonna be so many new shots to experience than what you know I would have if I still had Godzilla. So, I feel like it's a great fit for that reason. I think I think Godzilla, and people were bringing this up in the thread, too, and I'd kind of forgotten this aspect of it, but Godzilla was positioned at a really fortuitous time um in the world, you know, where the world was at that time. You know, it was released just before CO hit and obviously there was a big pinball boom during that time because everybody was trying to find things to do in their houses. So it benefited probably a from you know being um you know an incredibly sort of uh you know you know it's obviously an amazing game. You know some people say it's overrated but you know I think you know I don't think anybody can argue sort of what its impact on pinball has been. You know we always try and um calculate how many have been sold and you know obviously Stern don't release their sales figures. So, we try to extrapolate that based on, you know, how many Tokyo Neons mods I've sold and, you know, and how how many we how many Tokyo Neons we think or what percentage of Godzillaas in the world have a Tokyo neon neon on them. And I think, you know, best case scenario would be that onetenth of Godzillaas have a Tokyo Neon on them. And so if you take the num the sales figures that I've that you know that I've had on that and put that across you know and times that by 10 you know we're talking like 20,000 sort of Godzillaas out there which is encroaching on Adam's family sales figures. So it's an incredibly successful game both for pinball and for Stern. So you know I you know we're probably not going to hit those heights again and you know purely because the world is in a different place than it was when Godzilla was released. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see. I mean, for for me, for Jaws, um, cool game. I've enjoyed every time I play it. I I I feel like I hear about people raving about how great it is, you know, despite the theme and everything. So, I'll be curious if we see a similar thing with King Kong as far as the code goes. Like, are people like loving this even more than what their kind of initial reaction is? Obviously, we're starting from a pretty high place on Kong. Um, but I think that'll at least help it kind of approach success for them is if they can actually deliver on the code. Um, there is a there is some fun modes in the game that I already saw. Uh, there's a uh do you remember what the name of that plunger skill shot mode is, Jamie? Oh, what was that? No. So, so that's really neat. So, with Black Knight, uh, as we may all know, there's a mode where you you don't flip, right? You just Well, you you only flip the top flipper and you're trying to hit hit the loops. Do you know what I'm talking about, Davey? On Black Knight, Swords of Rage. Yes. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I know the one. Yep. So, they've got a takeover mode where you can't flip. All you can do is plunge and it just keeps launching balls and you're trying to plunge it into the far left in lane, I believe. In lane, not out lane. Not out lane. Far left in lane, which is because that's a that's a Congo throwback as well, isn't it? Because Congo had a skill shot where you needed to plunge into the left out lane. Yes. Um where you couldn't flip while it was happening. No, but you could continue to if it didn't hit anything uh if it didn't register at Congo. You can keep going for that skill shot. And yeah, this is called the This is called dead eyee or dead eyee. It's not a multiball, but dead eyee mode or something. It's cool because you end up doing it for 15 20 seconds trying to hit it. Uh yeah, I don't know if it's a savior ball type thing, which I think is that's what it is in Black Knight, but definitely a lot of fun. I wonder how many throwbacks there are like that because obviously they've they've based the playfield art particularly around the sling area and the flipper lower flippers on the neverreleased um Dar East King Kong, haven't they? Um so that there's one throwback there. you know, possibly that skill shot is a Congo sort of reference. I wonder how many sort of other um things have been pulled like that because, you know, obviously Owen's a big fan of uh you know, playing pinball as well as designing them, isn't he? And he's, you know, world class uh competitive player. So, it' be interesting to know sort of what other aspects of this game have sort of been um well, the sweepable targets were from I don't remember the com the the pin now, but uh someone will correct me, but the the sweepable drop targets to the left are definitely an homage to a game that I wrote down and forgot. Yeah. Like earlier earlier Stern titles like Yeah. You know, like solid state Stern titles from right ages ago. Yeah, but I don't remember the one. I wrote it down, but there you go. Yeah. So, here's a Ellwin did respond to this question and he kind of gave me the impression it doesn't go too deep in terms of those things. Uh he did he did say uh I think it's somebody I think was the artist. So, he did work uh pretty closely with Kevin uh to kind of get to the point where they are on the art. You can see uh there's the building in the center. where there's the doors in the middle. Um, outside of that, he did say that he uh started with the shot, which he calls the punch back, which is where the ball goes around this loop, hits that target, then there's a there's a a solenoid, I believe, that kicks it back around. Uh, if it hits hard enough, and he built the whole game around that sh shot shot as a starting point. Um, so I thought that was kind of cool to hear. And I and I know that that shot is uh I don't know, Nick, if you're still out there. I think you knew what it was from, but it's from some game. Um he didn't come up with it, but that was the beginning point effectively. The only one that I know that's similar to that is the raptor shot of Data East Jurassic Park where um it's like a you essentially it's a it's a shot near the top and you sort of hit hit the raptor um and there's a there's a coil in the back of it and it shoots it straight back at you. So, it's like a it's like a really aggressive sort of shot because you sort of hit it, you're stoked for hitting it, but then it comes back at you with the exact same speed and it's like, you know, it's quite an aggressive attack sort of, you know, you feel like pinball's attacking and Black Knight kind of does that too, right? Um, it's not as aggressive as the one you're talking about there, because it's just got so long to travel. Uh, but it is uh it's definitely like kind of makes you think he's kind of fighting back at you. So, that's Yeah. Yeah. So, you mean like the flail? The flail where when the flail's sort of in Black Knight when the flail's moving and it hits the ball back at you kind of hits it back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

44:11

Cool. So, should we So, what other what other modding opportunities do you think there's there is in Kong then? Can you think? Certainly plenty of top opportunities. Um, so I would hope to think anyway. I mean, of course, we know we're going to get something from Stern. I'll be interested if they do something with the building, but maybe since Jamie, our our expert intellectual property, uh, has told us the building is out. It's out. Um, I don't know if the Empire State Building for sure is out. Any type of building they can put in, but the Empire State Building is absolutely a licensed uh, property. So, essentially, they could license it and do a topper based on that. Um, if they didn't license it for the game, I doubt they're going to license it just for the topper. Or maybe they save maybe they're saving it because like from a topper perspective we were kind of talking about that building like if you actually would have put that building in the game you're either cutting it off at the very top or you're making it super slender so there's just not a lot of room to work with there. Um beyond that I mean you know it'll probably have a mode so we can kind of expect that. But as far as modders I'm sure we're going to see some cool stuff and and because I'm getting the game I'll certainly be thinking about it. We'll see see where it goes. But so Andy uh Andy from Rocket City also wanted to mention the dragon in the Game of Thrones is also I'm not familiar with Game of Thrones. Um so I don't know that particular shot. Um but he said that's another one that sort of uh is got a you know that sort of attacks you I guess. Um so yeah. Um so yeah, Rob, you mentioned to me recently that um that probably you guys aren't going to be looking at sort of newer release games for toppers. Is that still the case? Yeah, it's it's it's just a thing where, you know, whenever you've got so many people, you know, picking up stern, especially with the mode, sometimes it seems to make less sense for us. But also, it if we come up with the idea that we really love and we think that it can help differentiate itself from a stern offering, which we know typically doesn't, you know, push the boundaries as far as what we can do. Um, who knows, we might fall in love with it. So, um, that's kind of where we're at on a couple games right now where they keep kind of popping back up and we'll move on and then we'll land on an idea that's like, "Oh my god, we almost cannot not do this, you know?" So, that would be that' be the kicker for for So, so you would let the you would let the idea be the driver of that or would you wait until you saw sort of what Stern was going to do and then make a decision on it? I mean, it's going to be top of mind because I've got the game, right? A lot of time it's just like how much time are you investing in thinking about ideas? Um and also being inspired uh by the game. Um yeah, because we like to do things where it's like I we I'm going to give a shout out to Hector, one of our uh customers, Dave. We spent some time with Hector and a lot of time with Hector. We had a good good Saturday night. I love Hector. He was uh he was kind of talking about what we want out of pinball machines and talking about pinball moments, which is like just something to where we're either excited about it or even more importantly, we have a friend over and we're excited about telling them about it. Godzilla does that really well with the building collapsing. Um I think that King Kong, we haven't talked about the fact he punches the top of the glass, but that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. The the train exploding and the balls kind of going off in different directions. It's not it's not Godzilla level cool. Um and that may be something that's going to be hurting King Kong, but it is cool. Uh but but it is about pinball moments and he was kind of talking about pinball moments and toppers and and I I like to believe that we do that with a lot of our toppers, if not all of them. Um and uh if we can come up with something that that makes Hector happy, who knows? Who knows? He's our new yard stick for uh you know what makes a good topper. it was it's not too far off from the way that we think, but he was able to kind of describe it in a way that was a lot more specific. Um, so I'll give him a shout out for that and and that's what we would strive for for sure. It's difficult though, isn't it? Particularly with toppers because obviously they have to come in at a certain price point and um, you know, and the more stuff you add and the more complexity you add, you know, you run the risk of these things either failing or not working or coming into problems. So there's always that balancing act, isn't there, between wanting to push the boundaries, but making it still resilient enough that it's going to survive the test of time. Totally. And and install time, I mean, our our install time across our toppers has varied greatly. Uh shout out to, you know, the customers who, you know, take the time to do it right. Sometimes people just don't do it right and it and it limits the functionality because of course we're not like tapping into the the serial bus of these games. So that's something we're thinking about. You mentioned the service side of things um and just longevity of them. So certainly a number of factors there. Yep. Who have we got here? Well, let's answer this one. This is important. Okay. You lo patiently really want to keep an eye mods you discussed. Uh hang on. Sorry. Can't stumbler pinball. Stumbler pinball.com. Uh keep an eye. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stumblerinball.com. Um, so the easiest way to sort of uh sort of so we we post regularly on Pinside. Um, Kong's a little bit different in a in a lot of ways because um, you know, all the all the modders know that you know, Kong's going to be a really good selling game. You know, Elvin games are always really good fun to mod. Um, and Godzilla was a massive uh, you know, modding game both in terms of sort of the customer base, their appetite for modding, um, and you know, obviously the sales stats for Godzilla were so good that it meant that the market was really good for mods as well. So, you know, most of the modders sort of realized that sort of Kong was sort of going to fall into the same kind of bracket as that. Um, so I think everybody's kind of approaching this one um, a little bit, and it sounds horrible cuz we're all friends, but a little bit more aggressively in terms of sort of telegraphing sort of what they're working on. Um, you know, the day that sort of Kong came out, you know, I was on the phone to Paul J Je Jazzbay, you know, talking about sort of what interested us or, you know, what areas we thought, um, you know, our skill sets would sort of best be applied to. Um, you know, I've been speaking to John in the background as well, another UK modder. Um, I've sent, um, some PMs to Tom, uh, TDD as well. Um, just to sort of give him a heads up that I was sort of thinking about sort of certain things, getting his feedback about what he was interested in. Essentially, just trying to sort of get a just trying to feel everybody out. Um, just so that we didn't step on each other's toes. Like, you know, we are good mates. You know, Tom comes on the show and, you know, we love having him on. He's a highly talented dude. he does great work. Um, so there's nothing worse than finding out that you and many really good friends have been working on the same thing and that you, you know, you're going to be going into competition with them, you know, over a particular mod. But the reality is that on games like this that's going to happen because, you know, we are kind of all interested in in sort of working on it and and producing stuff for it. Um, so I don't think that we've all really worked out exactly what the best approach to that is yet in terms of sort of the collaborative side of working out um, I guess who does what. Um, and and you know where where the rules are around that. Um, but I'm very aware of it and going forward um, it's something that we, you know, that I'm trying to think about more and more. So it does mean that, you know, people are posting on pins. They're kind of telegraphing what their actions are going to be. But outside of that, the best way is to jump on um from my perspective uh the newsletter. You can just jump on stumblepill.com. Jump on the newsletter and we'll make sure that you know anytime uh you know something's ready to be announced or released, it'll it'll definitely get sent out on the newsletter first. Um as well as a post on pinsite as well. Yeah, I'll be interested to see what you guys do because I because obviously there's a likelihood that a lot of you will do multiple mods and kind of once you start working with uh someone new on a game, you might want to stick with them. So divvying up those areas is going to be Yeah. Well, and Andy in the chat just earlier from Rocket City, you know, we love Andy. We've had him on the show. Uh, you know, and we always, you know, go and interview him, too. Very hardworking dude, very well- loved in the industry. He also mentioned that he was looking at the skull in the waterfall as well. So, and there was also another dude who I'm not familiar with, uh, who who mentioned that they were looking at it. So, it's going to be it's going to be a crowded playing field around that skull area. Um, it's just one of those things, you know, no hard feelings everybody if if we step on each other's toes. Um, you know, and you know, I like to think as well that uh, you know, I try and help out people as much as possible, too. If they sort of got a blocker, particularly technically, you know, that um, and you know, they reach out for help or advice, you know, we'll always be here to assist with that. Um cuz I think you know ultimately all of us are stronger together in building up the customer base and the appetite for mods and the legitimacy of them as well. You know I think modding has always had um a bit of a stigma attached to it. Um possibly because of its history of people just gluing in Happy Meal toys and and stuff like that. Um, so you know, we're constantly trying to sort of raise the profile of it and, uh, make it more legitimate, um, make it more professional, and, you know, part of that is, uh, making sure that everybody sort of gets gets pulled up, um, by those actions. Jamie, were you part of bringing new games into the wormhole like as far as setting them up and making decisions around them? Oh, yeah. And John, specifically, John Spates from Eureka did did that. That was his role as well. Are there are there things that you guys did? Inner art blades, pin stadiums, uh was there kind of like a little bit of an arsenal of stuff or did it just kind of depend on the game that you guys It really depended on the game. You know, the the wormhole was very dark so lights was was something very very important for us. You know, at Eureka Heights now, they mod out everything. Taylor and Yeah, they've got our Godzilla topper. I mean, it's pretty rare for location. Yeah, they are mod nuts. So, good to hear. Good to hear. Good to hear. I was talking to them on Saturday when I got back and they we they wanted to do a conference call with me of uh what do you think? And I said, "Well, I think someone's going to mod that biplane pretty quickly." And we definitely, you know, because that makes total sense. Uh I don't know how you would do I think David, you made a great point. How do you handle a mod on the Pro for the Gong? Uh yeah, I don't know how you do that. No, I I think that's a real and nobody nobody has done it to my knowledge has produced a bash toy that's resilient to the point of, you know, what the manufacturers can produce. Yeah. So, that's going to be a challenge. But definitely the biplane, definitely the spider. I think you guys, it's interesting to me as an outsider of the mod community, how your brains work, both of you, by looking at a machine and you go, "Yeah, I look at that area right here. That is and that's that's both a like I also see it as being a really horrible thing too, mate, because like I just want to enjoy the game, you know, and as soon as the game arrives and like if I start pulling it apart, then it instantly becomes part of the job, I suppose. And I love modding, you know, it's not it's difficult calling it a job because I enjoy it so much and I'm passionate about it. But as soon as you start working on it, then you're not enjoying pinball anymore. You're you're doing something else. But on the other hand, like a lot of people, that's what they enjoy about pinball. And you hear that over and over again. I mean, the amount of people that I've interacted with, whether it's part of the business or not, that have like two or three thousand worth of mods before they even get the game, like that's a thing for sure. Um, and then of course you've got a lot of people that take a really long time to put this stuff in and they're okay with that, right? Because it's like this constant like kind of toy chest to go to. Yeah. um which is uh but as far as yeah looking at it I agree with you Davey. I mean the big thing with mods I think for me is like I don't like covering ball paths anymore than what they already are and and you see a lot of stuff I think the classic is Jurassic Park like people putting in palm trees like there's like you'll see a pins post of a Jurassic Park or and there's just like or not pal whatever trees and it's just like covering the thing. So everybody has different tastes uh for sure. Um, and a lot of it's just like if they enjoy it and they can get a ton of trees and put them in, they're going to do it. Yeah. And I think we've all Yeah. I we've made the point plenty of times as well. And, you know, I sort of disparagingly referred to the Happy Meal sort of modders and stuff like that, but ultimately that's all part of our scene, you know, like if even if you're, you know, doing things that possibly are irreversible and, you know, we definitely try and steer away from as modders, you know, we always try and make it so that you can revert the game back to, you know, its original state. Um, you know, we we also have to accept that those those stigmas and things are a part of what we do and you can either try and reject it outright or you can just absorb it and say, "Okay, that's that's all part of this one big thing, which is modding." Um, and you move forward with with that as a whole. Um, and I think we're going to be in a better position if we if we do that and just accept that that's that is a thing and that people will glue trees to their plastics. We are we are starting from the the base point of someone who has the taste profile to put a pinball machine in their home in the So hey it's all fair game point and I think we I think we lose sight of that at times when we're arguing about damsels in distress and the color purple. It's just like, you know, ultimately, you know, you know, my wife has been very uh lenient with me, you know, being able to put these um games in our home when it certainly doesn't match her vision of what a beautiful home looks like. Definitely. Well, should we talk about the damsel in distress thing? Should we close it off with little What's going on with that one? Let's get controversial, shall we? Uh, so we talked a little bit about the purple thing. people had a problem with the purple. There's tons of purple games. I don't know why people suddenly decide that purple is not a thing. I mean, my personal opinion is that because Harry Potter's coming out soon and um and you know, June's out around about the same time, I firmly believe that people just wanted to talk themselves out of this one just so that they didn't have to think about buying it. And that's cool. Like we've all done that on games at times, you know, we've just gone, you know, we've found some arbitrary reason that we don't like it so that we don't have to think about wanting it or needing it, you know, and you know, shutting down that FOMO as quickly as possible. And that's that's great. So to me, the purple thing and the the secondary thing, which was the damsel in distress. So this was raised on uh pinside today. um you know and and uh it was it was mentioned that people were talking about the fact that this uh take on King Kong wasn't uh in line with the iconic image of King Kong. This you know all all those comments we made earlier in the in the stream. Um you know he wasn't climbing uh the tower. He didn't have a woman in his hand. And I think somebody mentioned about the, you know, Joel's podcast the other night and that somebody mentioned that um that they could have a woman in the game but she couldn't be in distress. Right now I'm not sure where that um where that spec came from, whether it was a licensing thing or whether they just decided as a team that they didn't want to do things that way. Anyway, they just decided and that's the direction they went in. Um, a couple of people on Pinsside had took real issue to this to the point where that if there wasn't a damsel in distress in the game, then they weren't going to buy the game. Um, which is a pretty pretty strong sort of take on it, I think. Um and of course as soon as you start sort of you know talking about these kind of things anywhere then you know there was accusations of uh you know you know wokery and all the you know all the rest of it and you know people are making these decisions for political reasons and all the rest of it. you know, of course things are going to go in that direction, but the question remains like who really gives a crap, right? Like I mean, and how much of the audience does give a crap? To me, it just sort of, you know, hked back to I mean, I think the John Wick guns thing, the Jaws eating the ball thing, you know, it seems like every Stern release has to have some kind of controversy that people are up in arms about. And to be honest, this seems the weakest of the lot. you know, John, you know, the John Wick guns thing, you know, fine. I I guess people are making the argument or people were making the argument that she's a lead character in King Kong. Um, and that she should have been represented in her, you know, original way. But, you know, I mean, obviously she was a thing in the original Kong, but is she in any of the other like is is it, you know, I'm a big Kong fan and yes, there's a damsel in in every major Kong movie. Uh, okay. Okay. Yes. All right. But I told them on the tour, I said, "You guys could attach a gold brick to these machines and people would complain that now they're too heavy." I I'm telling you, pay no mind to those people. It's a It's a great machine. If you don't like it, don't buy it. And if you don't like it, you know, go flip it at your local arcade because they're coming in the next four weeks. They'll be there. And put it. totally worth putting a dollar in because I think you're really gonna like it. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure I'm gonna fall into that bracket as well. Um because Yeah, it's a it's a it's a total non-issue to me. Um but yeah, it seems it seems to happen every release, doesn't it? Particularly when JJP go up against Stern, you know, you've got the same people sort of fighting fighting in the corners, right? Um but it only seems to be from a consumer point of view that that these sort of uh you know these lines get drawn in the sand, right? You know you were saying earlier that the you know the actual people responsible um for producing these games all love each other's work and uh you know there's a good sense of camaraderie there behind the scenes. Yeah. Yeah. With this was a big discussion with Bond because the the Bond women multiplier didn't work forever, right? Right. And there was a lot of talk about is it because they don't want to have the clips and eventually they showed the clips with the girls and the the the bikinis and whatnot and it was it was a non-issue, but it was certainly dominated Pinside for a while. I think you're right to a point that when people kind of decide they're not going to do this one, um it's they're they're obviously giving themselves reasons and if they're a part of a conversation, they're going to they're going to share those reasons. So, um it's definitely kind of a catch22 when it comes to pinside um and following that. But but the code's at what 80%. Really? I didn't know that. Okay. Yeah, I I it might be 78. Don't count, you know, but I got the feeling that we were at close to 80%. A lot of neat things happening with Insider Connected. Uh different modes, different challenge Kong challenge modes that are going to be coded into the game. So, a lot a lot to come. Yeah, can't wait. Yeah, I'm really excited about this one. I think this is this is probably the most exciting uh release for me from any manufacturer for a while. Um and you know, yeah, I'm just really excited. I'm just going to try and hold off pulling that glass off for as long as possible. Um try and get us Good luck. I know. I know. Well, we we got some good comments coming from Big Tony. I guess maybe the takeaway from a mod perspective is of course we cannot fix that part of the game. Uh, but I'm sure there's going to be some people who are going to get some stuff in there. There was a ton of stuff from games that are bringing nostalgia in, and that's one of the great things about it. So, um, might be a good starting point for a mod, for sure. Yeah. Cool. Well, Jamie, thank you so much, buddy. Um, I I I know you're in demand. I know you got your own stuff going on, but we really appreciate you coming on. Uh, is there a URL? Where where can we find you? Yeah, just on YouTube. Uh, you could just Google Jamie virtual or the JBS show and you'll find me on all the socials and everywhere else. Awesome. Awesome. Dave, thank you so much for taking the time. I know it's late there. We're excited to see what you got coming out. Uh, for everybody who joined, we had a ton of people from Pinsside. Don't don't hate our comments. We love you guys. I didn't say anything bad about keep us entertained. Crazy Levi, bring it on, baby. Talk about whatever you want. I love love following you. Um, you guys are great. Uh, we'll be back. Uh, we're going to share more. Uh, hopefully get my hands on the Dune soon. Jamie, any any comments on Dune? Did you Did you get some worm action? Is it good? Yeah. Okay. Again, I put five games on it, guys. Okay. I'm not an expert on Dune. What I did say is when you walk up Yeah. It's brown. You forget about that pretty quickly. Yeah. Okay. It's pretty darn fun. I hear I hear they're gonna make an experience. If you want if you want the IP in a game, Dune is going to deliver on that over King Kong all day. So, thank you to these guys for making cool stuff. Can't wait to play it. Uh Dave, any uh any last comments? I'm kind of I think I think the worm mech looks amazing and I'd like to have a closer look at it. I think um you know, I mean, that's a standout feature, isn't it? On on June. Um I love the films. Uh I'm not again I'm not a sort of a June fanboy uh really. I didn't see the original movie with Sting. I haven't read the books. Um, but I loved the modern films. I thought they were really um they had a lot of personality um and a lot of iconic set pieces, particularly the uh you know, the the the fighting scenes. Um so, you know, I was and you know, I love Barrels as a company. I think they're doing you know, really great stuff. They're sort of dancing to their own tune. Um, I thought the I thought the timing with everything was a bit unfortunate for them. Um, and I've heard various reasons about why that was behind the scenes. I, you know, I don't know what the truth is with that. I thought it was a bit unfortunate um, that they released sort of, you know, the day before Kong. Um, but I hope that that doesn't impact things for them. And it seems to be that there's a a section of people who, you know, of of hardcore fans both of Barrels and of June that will sort of carry them over the line. And I hope that happens. Definitely. Yeah, me too. All right, guys. Signing off. Uh we'll see you guys in a couple weeks again. James later. See you team. Thanks a lot. Bye. Cheers. Cheers.