Hey, what's going on pinball land and welcome to episode number 10 of flipping out pinball podcast. My name is Ken Cromwell with me today as always the man with the master plan, Mr. Greg bone. Greg, how are you buddy? If I was doing any better, I'd be Ken Cromwell. No, you wouldn't be doing that bad. Don't you hate that saying? Is that not the worst saying that you've ever heard? When people say that to me, I just shake my head. I don't know that I've heard that very often. You've never heard that? Oh, I just heard it now, but I don't know that I've – Maybe it's like a – maybe it's a southern Indiana, Kentucky, you know, that kind of lower Midwest. It's a regional saying. I'm sure it's probably something that probably nobody thinks if they were doing any better, they would be me. That could be a good reason why I've never heard it before, or it's not necessarily ringing a bell. But what's been happening, man? What's going on? Oh, man, nothing. You know, great vacation coming off of that. Back to work. Work is always a nightmare coming off of vacation. Things pile up. But, you know, I've got about everything knocked out so far. So, you know, back on track, feeling good. Ready for my next vacation. We had a lot of people asking about you while you were gone. And I even had some tech support coming through to old Ken at flipping on pinball.com. I know. I had one guy who talked to me about how you got his potter squared away for him. Yeah. I was having a few issues. Yeah, you and Zach held the fort down for me, so I super appreciate it. Greg, we had a little meeting a couple nights ago, and it was our first after hours with our Patreon supporters, and that was fun. We all jumped on the old computer webcams. It was fun. We had like an old school Zoom meeting, but we were talking a little inside baseball, about pinball, about the industry, and I had a really good time. It was a good time. It went way over. It did. We were scheduled for an hour. Man, like we just kind of got on a roll talking. I mean, we fell into so many subjects, and we ended up at almost two hours, I think, on there. You had the abrupt, well, I think that about wraps it up, guys. Because that was like for you. It was like two hours past my bedtime. I'm an old man. And, like, I got to get in bed, man. I haven't seen my wife for, like, two days. I got to go visit with her for a minute, talk to her, peas, her, the children. Originally it was what? It was 7 to 8 o'clock Central Time. That's 8 to 9 your time. We ended up going to almost 10 your time. But it was just rolling. Like, how were we going to stop it? I mean, we talked about a little bit of everything, like, from licensing on games to, I mean, man, we just kind of. The approach on design and why does this happen and why does that happen? Yeah, toys, mechs, what we're looking for in the future. I mean, it was actually a hell of a discussion. Like, we really roped the piece in. I actually kind of felt bad because, I mean, I guess that that's what listeners are in there for. But, I mean, I felt like it was like a podcast. Like, me and you just kept going back and forth. I mean, we had some great commentation and we had some great questions and stuff come in. But I kind of felt bad because I felt like it was me and you talking over everybody. I did kind of get a sense of that as well, because I'm thinking I'm like, I'm getting sick and tired of hearing myself talking this thing. And it's like I think it's because with the podcast, I mean, we're just used to riffing back and forth and feeling that time so they don't have that, you know, uncomfortable gap of of silence. But I mean, you're listening to an audio podcast. You don't want to hear nothing. So at some point, we're just we're classically conditioned to just keep the thoughts rolling. And and that's why I and I just said I have a tendency to talk over people and I need to do a better job of that. So I don't think that's part of conversing. But I mean, you hit the nail on the head. I think it was just like, you know, you would say something that would spark a thought in my head. So then I would start rambling. And then my rambles would spark a thought in your head. And it was just like, we just kept going back and forth. We had an episode like, yeah, the hidden episode that never airs. But if anybody wants to join Patreon, you can get in on the next one, which will be happening in November. We're trying to get these monthly and we're going to switch up the days and the times to try to accommodate everybody because not everybody's schedule is always going to align. And we certainly understand that. But we want to welcome you in there. You go to patreon.com and search Flippin' Up Pinball Podcast or patreon.com slash Flippin' Up Pinball Podcast should get you right there. There's different levels. You can join that for free and there's different tiers of support if you want to do that. And I also wanted to take a minute to thank Dog Days and Skeleton Rock O for each upgrading their memberships. They've gone to the next tier of membership. Actually, Skeleton went all the way with the tier three. So he's rocking it out. Appreciate that. We're looking forward to that after-hours meetup. That's right. Dog Day is coming in at the little mini-wizard mode. So that's pretty cool. You can go over there and check it out. But you know what? Listen, try to package this up in a nice, concise episode for everybody today. We were talking about on social media last week what constitutes a good pinball teaser. What do we like in teasers? What do we don't like with teasers? Could they improve? where they, you know, how long is too long between a teaser and a reveal? So we asked the question, we proposed it on our social media. We're going to read some of the responses today. We're also going to offer our own feedback. And I just think that it's, you know, with new games coming down the pipeline at some point here, I don't know if there's new games that are going to be revealing themselves before the end of the year, but we've had years and years and years of witnessing reveals and everything kind of gets kicked off with a teaser. And that comes from every single company. So, you know, we recently saw, you know, Stern, you know, a lot of this kind of arose and got us talking about it and thinking more about it just because of Stern's release of the Star Wars Fall of the Empire teaser on there. And, you know, there was a lot of blowback that came from that. To me, not particularly because of the trailer itself, more of the duration between the teaser and the actual launch of the game. But, you know, from my understanding, it was of no fault of Stern's. You know, they were waiting for some approvals, that different thing, which, you know, was a very good thing that we talked about during our after hours meetup with some of our Patreon members there. We kind of talked about how, you know, a lot of the things behind the scenes and a lot of things with licensing and a lot of things that goes on, you know, the community is very quick to jump and run all over, you know, a particular manufacturer or company over it when it's really just it's not their fault. You know, they're just working within their parameters and so forth. But, you know, again, that's kind of what got us talking about this, because I felt like they were met with, you know, quite a bit of blowback on that. And, you know, that kind of puts us where we are and some of the comments that we've now received from a lot of our listeners. It's a tough spot to be in. You know, I could argue the other side of it where, you know, you're saying it's not anybody's fault. I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but it's like if you don't have the approvals, it's really hard for you to move forward with any type of promotional material, because then you're in that limbo mode, right? That's a scary position to be in. I'm always the type of person that I would want to have all my ducks in a row and be 100% certain I'm ready to rock and roll before I put myself out where I'm vulnerable. You know what I mean? And I don't know if that was the case with Stern or not. I mean, it wasn't like terribly long, but typically, you know, we're used to seeing that kind of teaser that comes in at the end of the week and it kind of confirms the title. And then we're rocking into a Tuesday where you're getting that full reveal. I tend to like that strategy. For me, these teasers need to be short. They should confirm what the title is. I think they should confirm what the launch date is, because I think that's important for people to start gearing up for that. I just like it to have a lot of information. I don't need it to show me mechs. I don't need it to show me any gameplay. I would like something probably more than just the title, if possible, whether that's a close-up of some artwork or something. but I don't really need to see a ball in motion. That's just for me personally. So I agree with you and disagree with you on that because I agree with you on not showing mechs, not showing some of that stuff just because, I mean, I mean, to me it's kind of pointless. I'm kind of mixed on that. You could show me a mech, but I don't really, I'm like you, I don't need to see the ball rolling around. I don't really need to see any of that. Kind of where my disagreement comes from though is I hate the title stuff. I hate, I hate the title being shown. I hate that it's that in your face. Like I understand. And I agree with you, like I, to an extent of the confirmation of what that title is. Um, but I still like it to be not confirmed with the title. Like I, I like that old school teaser stuff. Like if you saw a teaser of a movie or something where that, you know, it was something that, you know damn good and well with like a hundred percent certainty that that is a hundred percent what that theme is but it doesn't come across and say you know star wars you know it's like tell me it's star wars without telling me it's star yes but yes but if you see like an ewok in a in a teaser you might as well just say it's star wars at that point but i like that and i think that they need to do like movie stuff to where if it means something to somebody you need to show something like you need to show something really captivating and cool that gets you excited about that thing you know what i'm saying like star wars is kind of hard because it's so known i mean you know you show a lightsaber something you know what i'm saying about yeah okay but let's just say that they were doing episode one they were doing that whole thing or something and then like all of a sudden you just saw like a real quick scroll of like dark maul like his face and his makeup just like real quick or something like i think something like yeah that because now you're like oh shit okay it's dark mall like this is something different that we're getting okay so in my eyes that that confirms the title yeah maybe i misspoke i don't necessarily mean just to see like the logo of the title on the screen but i want the teaser to confirm to me what the title is going to be okay so okay because i i think that because the one of them that pissed me off bad was i'm pretty sure and i'd have to look back but i think that they did that with iron maiden I think that they literally just showed like Iron Maiden. Like they showed the lettering in the logo. And I was like, okay. Like cool that you confirmed. Because to me, when you confirm with just a title or you do something like that and you don't really give me any hint. And maybe that was some of the problem that people kind of had with that trailer of Sterns 2 on Star Wars was I need that teaser. If you're going to show a teaser, it needs to captivate you to an extent. Even though it's super short, like you said, it is a teaser. But if you don't captivate, who the hell cares if I know what the game is three days prior on any teaser? Oh, I think that's huge to know what the game is. I mean, because now I've got the weekend to have a couple drinks and convince myself if I'm going to buy it or if I'm not going to buy it. But you still don't know anything about it. So it's nice. Listen, we live in a day and age, and we kind of always have for the most part with Tim Bulber. we sort of know what's going to be coming out. Um, you know, there, cause we just, so many rumors are bouncing around with stuff. So you're kind of preparing yourself for maybe three or four potential titles from a manufacturer. Anyways, you know what I'm saying? But like, I, I want, again, like I want something like to your point, like I want to be able to sit around over the weekend or for the next day or two and like, get excited about it. Greg, can I, if you're sitting around over the weekend, Would you also be potentially having a cigar contemplating this pinball purchase? Most definitely. I would also. Okay. Definitely. Because that's my relaxed state. That is what I'm most in thought. You just, you know, you take a draw. You exhale. That's right. And you just look up at the smoke as it rolls out of your mouth. Your head tilts to the side briefly at about a 30 degree angle. You look slightly up. Yes. And that entire time you're pondering and you're thinking about that game. It's so true. you'll slowly nod to yourself in agreement of your thoughts you're like i think i think i do want to do that that's so right that's so funny you see my point though like i mean i don't disagree with you uh fully on on that of just knowing what title is but i think that that a good teaser uh which is kind of the whole premise of our show is something show me something that captivates me doesn't show off the game, tells me the name confirms basically the title of the game but captivates me And that tough That hard That takes a lot of thinking That takes a lot of creativity To me it does at least You know it takes a lot of and maybe they just don care enough Maybe just any of these manufacturers don't care too much about that to do that. But, I mean, you know, I think that that's where you hit the nail on the head. Well, and I always think this, right, in my opinion, like the teaser's job, obviously, is to create excitement right off the bat because it is going to be the first impression, but it's also the job of the teaser is to set up the trailer. And there's this kind of symphony that's taking place because you've got you've got the teaser that immediately should be hooking you. And now you're starved for information and content. Then you rock right into the reveal video, which, you know, likely is going to be days later, depending on who's revealing what. And then that's got to be what really convinces you to, you know, make the purchase or to own the game. and then after that, and this is where the beauty of the featurette comes into place, that does two things. And we're going to focus more on teasers than anything else, but I think that it's important to see how it works in unison, that featurette, which is like the post-trailer content, the behind-the-scenes, the interviews with the team, that puts anybody that's on the fence usually over the top because now they've got a connection to the game. They've got a better understanding of how that game was set up, how it was designed, the storyline behind the game. But also it really creates a level of security for somebody that just spent ten, twelve, fifteen thousand dollars that, hey, I feel really good about my purchase now. And now it's just a waiting game between that and when games come off the line. And that's a whole nother a whole nother show. But the teaser is so important. And a lot of times you don't understand the impact or the effectiveness of the teaser until you get into that launch video, which is interesting also. No, I agree with you. Yeah, sometimes things make more sense once that launch video and the full trailer come out versus the teaser. But, again, I mean, I think that, you know, you, again, made very, very good points on that. That teaser is the start. It is that setup. It's that thing that primes you and kind of conditions you for that trailer coming up. And, you know, you wouldn't think that it could be a miss, but, again, I still think that there could be a miss on that. Yeah, I would agree. do you think that it makes sense and it's only because what we're used to as far as teasers is and you brought it up earlier right relatively soon after the teaser you're going to have the reveal do you think that there's any benefit of letting somebody know the title in advance months in advance no maybe even a year in advance maybe maybe hey our teaser is our announcement is like we got these next three games in the queue and that's what we're going to be making over the next three years? Like, do you see that being impactful? I don't, I think that that's, that's a huge miss. I think that when you do something like that, you have killed a lot of excitement between there because, you know, again, back to my point of, of we live in a world where there's a lot of internet rumors, there's a lot of things that get leaked and you hear a lot of things, the confirmation in your brain, even if you felt, you know, 90% certain that it was going to be this particular title once you get that confirmation your excitement from there on is you have a very short window to continue that excitement or it fades off and then you've got maybe too much time to think about it a couple of other more exciting titles come out and now you're like okay i really don't care about that particular game anymore because there's these two coming out that really excites me you know here shortly that's where my money's gonna go you know what i'm saying like I don't think you want to confirm soon. I think that's a business. I think it depends on what you're working with. I think if you have an A++++ license that you feel is just going to dominate most of your buyers, most of the people that are interested in pinball machines, and you're not as concerned, and it's kind of like a strategic move to kind of block your competition, maybe tie up some money. That's an interesting concept that I'm torn on. We saw that happen with Jack Kornary, who did that with Harry Potter. It was, I mean, Jersey Jack Penwell was teasing that game in January. But I think that Potter was an anomaly. And that's what I'm talking about. That's your A++++ tier. But how often do you ever fall into that? I mean, there's almost nothing in my eyes that would have the broad impact of Harry Potter. Just because so much, it was talked about for so long that people wanted it. You know, it was shut down. No one was ever going to get that title. No one was ever going to get that license. And again, Harry Potter is huge. So I don't know if there's anything else that you could do that with. I kind of do think that that was the right move on their part with that. You know, I think there was some scrutiny on that up front. But I won't say, let me backtrack. I don't know if I'd say that's the right move, but I don't think that it was a hurtful move on their part to do that. It's a risky move. It is a risky move, yes. full transparency. I think that it is. And the reason that I say that, too, is if you reveal something very early and it's not coming out for months and you said one of the things like you, if it's too long, you just start losing interest. Naturally, it becomes boring almost. And by the time the game comes out, you feel like it's been out for a long time. And it's kind of psychologically, it's very, it's very dimming at that point. I would agree. Secondly, the earlier you reveal in my eyes it's like you give the person who's interested in that theme all that time to visualize what they think should be in that game to make them happy and by the time you look there's a very slim chance that you're going to be able to hit on everything that they wish or suspect should be in a game and now it's like do you set yourself up for disappointment because it's like why wasn't a or b or c in this game because that's what i would have done and that and that's hard you almost have to uh shorten the amount of time that you could be emotional about something and And and look, pinball, we know how it is. Pinball can be very impulsive purchase. It just it's the nature of the industry. People are excited. You know, these games aren't coming out every week, although they're coming out a lot more often now than they have been for for years. But it's always special when a game is revealed. And, you know, I think it's just natural way. We want to have a cool new toy. We want to be the first in our block to have it. That's why a lot of people don't understand. It's like, hey, I ordered this game on day one. How come I'm not getting the first game off the line? It's like, well, yeah, you know, 2000 people that ordered a game on day one. So you're in that queue really comes down to the time. So it's risky. It's risky. But I do see if done properly and I don't know what properly is yet because I don't think that there's enough analysis that you can kind of go over to see how this has been impactful. Because, again, to your point, there are there's a handful, maybe less than five licenses that you could probably extend the the teaser or the announcement on without maybe running a huge risk to yourself. Well, and I think Stern, you know, personally, and again, like you said, there's no analytics. There's nothing to really back it up. But, you know, I think Stern kind of has that over-the-weekend thing to me is the pushing point. I think that that might be that perfect length before you start to cross the threshold of too long. Because, you know, exactly to your point again, it gives, even though that you potentially might know what that title is, and you've thought about it, you think about it, your mind goes into overdrive when it's confirmed. So it's like you said, that's when you really start thinking about what's this game got in it. What's it going to look like? What's this? Now I saw the trailer. I know this small aspect of it or something else. So what's it got? So to me personally, I think, man, I think a 24 hour to 48 hour is maybe one of the better, maybe 48 hours at the most that you do. Well, I won't say at the most. I mean, like I said, Stern, that's pretty good, but it's pushing that realm. to me of being too long. But I mean, it's always worked for him and everything. But yeah, I mean, I think within a 48-hour period maybe is that nice point. Yeah. And I think Stern does a good job of usually that timeline. Zach Sharp and his team over there. They do. I like kind of knowing that going into the weekend. I got all weekend to kind of, not that my whole life is just, hey, I wonder what the next game is. I wonder what it's going to have in it. But to a certain extent, you've got that free time and you've got that cigar, Greg. You've got deep thoughts. But also, another thing, like Stern, besides this that happened, typically you know exactly what to expect from Stern. So that also plays into it mentally and psychologically, too. You kind of know, okay, this is when that trailer is, you know, because you're hyped now about that trailer. You're not waiting without knowing. That's an excellent point. You've been conditioned to know how you are going to receive that information. Yes, yes. And for the large part, Everybody's fine with it. Yeah, I like that. Other manufacturers should stick with that. Like if you've got, you know, unless it's just not working and you've got something that backs it up that it's not working for you, stick to those release timelines. If you have a trailer, if you have a teaser, if you have a trailer, if you have a feature ad, if you have these marketing materials, kind of stick to that schedule so that people know what to expect because that in turn creates more hype and you set an expectation. Yeah, I can see that. Setting an expectation is everything because let's just say somebody else was even shorter than Stern. Let's say that it was just two days or something. You might start to ponder after the first, you know, after the next day, you don't get a trailer. You're like, okay, where's this trailer? Maybe tomorrow. You don't get it that day. You start to, your hype starts to kind of fall. That's why I think the teaser has to have the reveal day and time in it, and you have to start a countdown. And I just think that that makes a lot of sense. all these things being considered, I wouldn't be opposed to somebody trying something different. The problem is, you know, a lot of these companies can't really afford to take risks yet because they're still kind of establishing themselves. And, you know, you want to know you want to do what works. You want to do simple better. And that's just the safe move. And I totally get it. But I wouldn't mind seeing something a little bit more unorthodox, shake things up from a marketing perspective and a reveal and a teaser perspective. So we'll see what happens. We've got some feedback that was offered to us via Facebook, Patreon, Instagram, and X. I figure we can read a couple of these comments and go back and forth, and then we'll close this episode down. What do you think? Sounds good to me. So let's go through a couple of these comments. First, we're going to hit Patreon. Our supporters over there at patreon.com slash Flip N Out Pinball Podcast. Member DCE says, hey, I just want to see the machine. Totally, totally can understand that. And again, this is, do you like to be teased? Do you like to be teased? Adam says, hey, teasers can be fun, but you need to give a little detail to make it interesting. The Star Wars teaser didn't do it for me. It just announced what it was essentially, which was a logo. Now, if they just showed a five-second clip of that logo with a quick shot of the ball and the wire ramp going around the AT-AT and then it collapsing, that would have been peak. So that's a little too revealing for me for a teaser because that's like a major feature of the game. Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can kind of blow your whole load and show, like, the coolest portions. but I think something briefly that gets you excited so that you, I love it. That's a nice, you gotta do, you gotta do some pinball edging when you're teasing the game. You might've taken that one further than me, Ken. Maybe that goes to bonus content. I love it. Well, yeah, I mean, cause I thought about that too, with that trailer. It's like, okay, if you showed that thing, you know, dropping down to its knees, in the way that it functions, I'm like, eh, that might be too much, because then I'm, I saw the, you know what I'm saying, it's almost like seeing the climax and the end of a movie. It's like, if you show that, you've got to ruin everything. Yeah, of course, you would never do that. Or you would never show the, well, I guess maybe that's happened in some instances, especially with comedies, you show like the best clip of the movie in the previews, and then you're thinking, oh, if that's going to set the bar, and you're like, oh, well, that was kind of it. William Moore, he comes in, he says, the only thing I like about a teaser is the confirmation of the IP. I'm a collector and I give a lot of weight to the IP. And since the purchase decision is like a series of gates, side note, I love how he says this. The purchase decision is like a series of gates IP art layout gameplay code and rules So there a big decision point as to whether or not my wallet is safe I just I liked how he kind of lined that up That is a good breakdown Tony V says it like asking if I it's like asking if I like blue balls. What is this? Is this like just a rough, a rough adult oriented episode today? A teaser just from a good tease. Do you like a good tease? Now I'm thinking there's all kinds of metaphors. Double. Yeah, exactly. Tony says it's like asking if I like blue balls, I don't mind the fourth play as long as I know what's going to lead to something immediately. So if you're going to tease me, I better get immediate gratification. That's kind of like what we talked about. You're definitely on a time frame of when to show that actual trailer and reveal the game. Yeah, I would agree. Our buddy Trace says, hey, love a good teaser. Show a little bit or a lot. Teasers always grab my attention. So Trace is a fan of the teasers. Read a couple of these from Facebook. We've got Brad and Jenga's both basically saying that, you know, they like the teasers, right? Brad goes along and says that as long as the shipping starts when the product's revealed, he doesn't like to be double teased. And then Jenga says he also likes to be teased. The more the better, but ship the games after the release. That's interesting. Yeah. You know, we've seen I don't think there's obviously anyone in a position which, you know, we've obviously had to explain to a lot of our customers with Harry Potter. that are brand new to pinball or that have only bought Sterns before. Stern is kind of the only manufacturer that can lock that down and do that. You know, typically what within that two to three week period, if that we're seeing games ship and roll out the door. Right. And a lot of people are getting their games, you know, now starting with the LEs and then pro premium rolling in after that. But, you know, everyone else, I used to argue for that. And I think that we all argue for that, but it's just impossible. It's impossible just because even JJP as big as what they are, they do not have the manufacturing output that Stern does. Nowhere close can they do that. So to stockpile those games and to do is just almost impossible for them. I would agree. It's hard. But in a perfect world, that would be the best. I've talked about this in other conversations and probably other podcasts and whatnot. But it's like for me, you got about 90 days to keep me interested from the time a game is revealed and I got my deposit in till the time I'm supposed to be getting my game under normal circumstances. When you know that there's going to be a backlog in a game, that's different. But if I just kind of go in blindly and I don't have that expectation set that, hey, you're going to be six months, eight months, a year out, I want my game in like 90 days. Well, exactly. And that's the problem, too, is setting expectations. That's one thing that Spooky does good is you kind of get your game number. You know where that you're kind of falling in for the most part to when you're going to receive your game. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You kind of got that expectation. If you're number 550, you kind of know roughly when your game is going to be ready. It's not going to be an immediate like a stern thing, but still, you haven't overhyped yourself. You're not wondering. You're not getting excited. You sort of know. Even if it is a six-month wait, you know when your game is going to come. So I think something like that is if you can't get the games out like Stern, doing something like that to where the people know, again, back to setting that expectation is so vitally important. I would agree. Bill says teasers are a good thing to build the hype, showing a key mech or a key theme integrator a couple days ahead of time will hype people to watch the trailer. And if the trailer is done right, the people will want to watch the featurette for more info. And then if the featurette can reel those in that are on the fence or create desire to try before buying, it's an art within itself. And we were talking about that earlier, how all that kind of works in unison with one another. Kimberly says the good things about pinball teasing, it would elicit curiosity. An example would be the image of the bottom side of a play field. The bad examples would be a clue with no context. Example, Fall of the Empire seemed like such a loaded statement, but gave us no idea what would be on the game. Half of us thought it would be the original trilogy and the other half thought it would be just after the original trilogy. So in that instance, I could see where that did create some confusion. But does that work to your benefit where you're getting people talking and then you get people kind of like defending where they think it's going to go? You're creating buzz. You're hitting the algorithm on social media. There's a lot of commentary that's happening. In your opinion, is that good or bad? I mean, I think it's another one of those like risky moves because you just don't know where it's going to go. So I like your thoughts behind that it creates conversation because anytime you get people, you know, it's almost like, you know, there is no bad publicity. No publicity is bad publicity, right? Exactly. So, I mean, but I also think it can be a little risky in some of those instances. But, you know, when you're generating buzz and you're generating talk, but also at the same time, you know, something that I've always learned is you can't give people options. so you you start having people debate that of what it is and then when it's not the thing that they thought it was or that they wanted this is you know game design this everything aside just you know back to back to her point or whatever the which side of what it was going to be once it comes out that it's not the thing that you thought it was or that you got yourself excited about you might not want to buy it at that point you know it's kind of like t-shirts like you you take and you give somebody the option to say, Hey, we're going to design a t-shirt. I've got four, four options here. What's your favorite for us to go with? The people that didn't pick the option that you go with are probably at that point, not going to buy your shirt. Some of them still will, but you've got a likelihood of selling more t-shirts if you just release your design, because when you give people options and they find one that they wanted, and now you went with one that they didn't necessarily want. Yep. Yep. They lose that interest and they don't, their likelihood of buying to me went down to easy 50%. Whereas again, you just put out a nice cool shirt, might not have been the design that they would have particularly wanted, but in their eyes, they don't have anything to compare it to. Yeah, I like that. I'm going to buy it. You know, I think it's the same thing with that. I think that that's where that risk comes in of not being clear and creating that debate a little bit. I totally see that. I totally see that. Facebook, Brian says, I'd like to know titles in advance. he wants to be able to plan financially and for selecting games that fit with his arcade so he's saying no one at least a year in advance helps me plan that's a little bit rough no we were talking about that a little earlier too it's like how far is too far a year's pretty far out nobody's ever really done anything like that i think that's what's good with the rumors um i don't know how many manufacturers feel about the rumors but i'm sure there's tons of controlled leaks for that stuff you know i think there is and i think that's smart i think you have to because i think you have to you you have to get those those rumors circulating so that people can do just that you know what i'm saying if i if i feel that a particular game is coming out you know just like we keep hearing a strong rumor for pokemon you know if i was a pokemon fan like i'm i'm already putting money back for that for potentially you know what i'm saying like if it doesn't come out are you a pokemon fan would that would that be a game you want to see i'm not a pokemon fan Yeah, I'm not either, man. I don't get it. I know it's a huge IP. I think it'd sell well, but you probably wouldn't see it in the Studio C, probably. Yeah, no. Yeah, it's just not my thing. It was a little, you know, I feel like our generation is just a hair too old. Just missed it by that much. Yeah, literally. Right. You know, especially mine. Like, you know, Pokemon was around and all that was around. Dragon Ball Z, you kind of had all that stuff, but it was just not. Did you get that Pokemon Go app and search around for virtual Pokemon? I didn't do it either. I don't know if people loved it. No. But, I mean, and I get the following. I mean, honestly, it's huge. It's a huge IP. I think it's going, you know, if it. I'm not busting on it. It just doesn't call to me at all. No, no, no. But, again, if the game flips fun, you never know. Yeah, no, I don't think I could. Yeah, I don't know. But the theme isn't. And that's another interesting topic because I know for a fact, and we've got buyers that they don't care if the game is amazing. If it's not a theme that fits their game room, it's not a tough theme. It's not like, yeah, they're just like, I'm going to take a pass on that. But we have a lot of people calling for Pokemon. Like I said, I separate myself from my own personal desires to what a public wants. So, I mean, I completely get it. I think that if Stern, whoever does come out with it, that it's going to be a giant success. That's no doubt in my mind. Not to bring this up intentionally, but the Pokemon interest list over at Flip N Out Pinball is growing. So if you want to jump in there, give us an email, ken at flippingupinball.com or greg at flippingupinball.com. Let us know that you want to be on the interest list for any new rumored game. We'll put you on there. And also the used inventory. If you're looking for something to use, email us. We'll put you on the interest list. We get it in. We'll give you a call. We've got Patrick who says he'd like companies to announce their next two themes with release dates. That's two themes. So this is, again, something we talked about. So Patrick wants to see the next two games announced. So you're always two games in advance. And again, I think we still keep it rumored. Still keep it rumored. Pat says you need to drop the behind the scenes featurette before the release. That's what sold him on Toy Story 4 and Harry Potter. It's an interesting concept. Not sure that I agree with that because I think that the trailer and the teaser work to kind of get you hooked. The behind the scenes content. I mean, what's the use of having the trailer at that point? I think you just go with the featurette. Maybe the featurette just is the reveal at that point. But in today's society, everybody wants information within like 10 seconds. If something doesn't captivate you in 10 seconds or five seconds, you're likely not going to sit down and watch 13 or 14 minutes. Well, and we're also very hungry for content always. So I think that that's the, you know, the trifecta of the teaser trailer and featurette. It gives us something to consume and keeps our hype, you know, prolonged until, you know, orders until everything. You know what I'm saying? It gets us more ready to buy because, I mean, I do that with anything. I'm always wanting to consume when I'm into everything. I want to read all, watch all, everything I can about something. I just want to consume, consume, consume. I love that. It's like knowledge is great. You know, and nowadays it's so easy to jump on a YouTube or jump into a forum group and kind of get some reviews or some feedback. I was looking at that recently. The meta Ray-Ban glasses, they've got the version two that's out because I really want those not for walking around on the beach and like filming people. But if I'm going to be creating content, maybe that's like installation or set up videos to have something on my eyes that I can just capture and be able to splice into a video is like very appealing to me. And, you know, depending on who you're watching or listening, these are great. these are terrible i don't know if anybody has these and they can offer some feedback dude i've heard they're good you know i thought about getting a pair too like uh i got a they're like 400 bucks man that's a lot of money but they they do good video it's good video and good photos like i've heard they're just they're magical like i honestly i i from people that i know that have them i don't think i've heard anything bad interesting yeah i would say the same i've just released my head is shaped very funny so like yeah oh yeah it's got a weird long face it's just narrow eyes. It looks good to me, man. Maybe you both have weird heads. But I have to have particular glasses. Like, I have to have very particular style and shape of glasses. So that's my only, like, I need to go try a pair on and see if they fit. Like, typically, that Ray-Ban style, like, fits me pretty well. But I still just want to see because they look a little larger than normal. Like I said. Well, there's two versions. There's standard and wide that they offer. But then there's another set of glasses that came out that's like, it's like $1,000 and it comes with this wrist thing that you wear, so for like augmented reality things. But you have to go to a Ray-Ban store and get fitted for that one, which is pretty interesting. So, you know, you got an extra thousand bucks laying around, Greg. Yeah, I'm not doing that. I'll buy the cheap pair. You know, I'm a pro guy. I'm a pro guy. No L.E. guy, Ken. I'm no L.E. guy. I'm a pro. Patreon takes off and you'll be buying yourself a nice Patreon glasses at the end of the decade here. So it'll be good. Pinball Flipout says, I think a pin should be announced and shown with gameplay when games are in boxes ready to ship. Having a teaser only gives us time to imagine our dream version of the theme, only to be disappointed when we see the actual game. I think we talked a little bit about that, too, right? Too much time between the teaser and the reveal You got so much in your head you probably going to be let down initially And it is what it is Gavin says two weeks from the first teaser to reveal Start with a tease on the theme then a few mechs then theme reveal and then a full reveal. So a couple weeks, he's saying. He likes to prolong that a little bit. I don't think you can. I think at that point you're just pissed off, and it's like, I've seen little snippets here or there. Show me the whole fucking game. Come on. I can attest to that when back in my running social media for a company where people get upset about that. It's like, hey, it's like, just show me the game already. What are you doing? It's like, wait a second. Yeah, because you try keeping people engaged for six months on a game without being able to tell anybody what the damn game is. Exactly. A little bit stressful. Going over to Instagram now. We got Joe, Joe, Dojo. Joe, Joe, Joe, Dojo. Okay, that makes more sense. I had to, like, figure that out. That just messed up my brain. Jojo Dojo says, loves a good teaser. Gets everybody into the frenzy chatting about the possibilities and the wonder. I also think other games and mechanics get thought of in the process of all of us talking about what may be coming. And then CrazyYoung37 says, I appreciate teasers. We know the game is coming. Gives us something to watch for and clear room in the basement if it's a must-have theme or item. And again, back to the power of the theme, right? I think the theme is going to really kind of dictate a lot about how a company is going to be able to roll something out. And, you know, got to be careful with those risks nowadays because a couple of bad decisions can mean the difference between, you know, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of dollars for any one of these companies when they're selling a game. And I know you said that there's some, you know, just because some of the companies are smaller and everything that they can't take that risk. But I don't think anybody can. I think it would be hurtful and stressful on Stern, you know, on some things like that. So I think everybody has to be careful. that that's again why i kind of don't harp on these companies there's things that i would like to see different or things that i would like to be try you know see them try but it's it's also not my money you know that's a great point on the line there you know with things because you know i i think even with um you know flipping out and the things that we deal with sometimes that that we have to navigate around. It's very easy for some people to say, well, do this, do that. Let's see this. And it's like, yeah, well, it's, it's Zach's money on the line. It's his company. It's our livelihood on the line. So it's like, Hey, you know, uh, put a little more thought into this and look at where we're coming from. It's easy to get risky with somebody else's money. I mean, just like it's easy to spend somebody else's money. You know, you're spending somebody else's money. You don't really care as much about the quality or the product, unless you're trying to get something for yourself, then you're deep diving all that stuff. Yeah, exactly. It's tough. So to summarize here, pinball teasers, and correct me if I'm wrong, we're both in favor of them. The shorter the time between the teaser and the reveal, the better. And we both would prefer to know exactly what the teaser is hinting at as far as confirming the theme. I remember at one point, American Pinball, they were teasing something. It wasn't their official teaser, but it was back in the day. and it was a picture of a pair of car keys just sitting on a desk. And it's like a teaser for our next game. And I'm like, car keys? And at the time, they were teasing Sherlock Holmes and Valkyries and Poker Run. So it was like, oh, Poker Run it must be because Poker Run is cars. You're driving around, you're collecting cards. And then someone's like, no, it must be Sherlock Holmes because he's unlocking the clues to the case. And then it's like, nobody knew what the hell keys would do with Valkyries. Yeah, because you need to convert. Because, again, it's that thing to where you're splitting and you're getting ideas or you're already turning yourself off or you're getting yourself hyped up about a theme that's just not there. Again, I think you do have to confirm it, but you confirm it subtly. Well, you know what that ended up being at the end of the day, too, right? Hot Wheels. It was Hot Wheels, right, which wasn't on anybody's radar. No. Because they had never teased it. So it's like, all right, I just blew my mind. You can't even get hyped that the trailer did no good because it didn't even get you hyped for the thing that it was going to be. at that time i went all in uh with my buddy bill webb we were taking bets on what we thought it was because we thought it was going to be one of the three and i'm like i'm gonna i'm picking valkyries for sure because car keys and valkyries make no sense at all so it just would make sense for that to how that game got revealed but ah good times good times but yeah all right so teaser's good thing and uh i don't know when the next teaser is going to be i know that uh you know the rumors are that there are games coming for the end of the year we'll probably see something from, you know, I think Stern is done with their Cornerstone games. We'll probably see potentially a remastered game that's on the agenda before the end of the year. Spooky Pinball typically reveals a game before the end of the year, so we can see something from them. Anybody, I don't think Jersey Jack Pinball is probably revealing anything as they're trying to, you know, keep up with demand on Potter. Chicago Gaming might have something. They tend to reveal very early without anything really coming in the form of production. Heroes of Fun, they have they're still selling Dune, right? Yeah, Dune's still picking up. I'm trying to think if there's anybody else out there that, you know, might be the dark horse, but, you know, off the top of my head. I'm always waiting. You know, it tends to not be the norm, which always disheartens me because I always like a show release. But, you know, I'm hoping that we'll see something, even if it's minuscule, whether it's an accessory or something, like I always like to to see something at a show. So hopefully somebody will reveal or do something at Expo. Cause I, again, even if it's just a cool accessory, I want to see something. I always like going to shows and, you know, being able to see something in person for the first time versus a trailer or a teaser. You know what I'm saying? I think that's part of the allure of a show is that you, you know, you think that you're going to potentially see something in person live. Right. And you always want a chance to kind of touch something and see something in person from an enthusiast standpoint. I'd love to see a reveal at a show. Me too. But, you know, thinking from a business standpoint. Oh, it doesn't make sense. It's hard, right? Because the company's there revealing. And then there's all these things that are happening behind the scenes. You've got Internet orders. All your marketing's got to go live. Your social media account's got to go live. Now you don't have a controlled environment. Most of them are shitty cell phone videos. People filming in the wrong orientation. Right. You know, just different things that just it's not a conducive environment to release a game. But like you said, selfishly is, you know, even from from a distributor standpoint, if you're at a bigger show, if it is like an expo or Texas Pinball Festival, you're at that show. You're man in a booth. You're probably, you know, not set up to go behind the scenes and and, you know, monitor invoices and everything that's coming in through your, you know, your your Internet transactions. transactions. It's just a really tricky thing that I don't envy anybody working at a pinball company or anybody running a distributorship that has to go through a launch or reveal at a show. But from the enthusiast standpoint, 100%. Show it to me every single time. You know what? Just reveal the damn game. Let's see it at Expo. We'll clean that up a little bit and see how it goes. We'll wrap this up, Greg. I know that we're going to do this. I think what we'll end up doing, because people tend to like the pinball power rankings. I think it makes more sense for us to do it at the end of every month instead of every episode. Two weeks kind of ebbs and flows. So you can start expecting the pinball power rankings to be released the last episode of every single month, give you an idea of what's been hot and what's been talked about mostly at Flip N Out Pinball. We always ask if you're looking for a new or used pinball machine to visit us at FlippinOutPinball.com. Zach and Nicole, owners over there at Flip N Out Pinball, myself and Greg, we work there. Greg, what's your email if somebody wants to ask a question or order a game? It is Greg at flip the letter in out pinball dot com. And my email is Ken at flipping out pinball dot com. We'd be happy to talk to you, take your order. Or, you know what? Listen, we've been in your shoes. If this is your first time buying a game and you just need a little bit of advice or you have a couple of questions, there are no bad questions. We're enthusiasts. First, we're here to help you out. We've been in your shoes. It's not a problem at all. You can go to the Facebook page, Flip It Out Pinball, and that's our distributorship page. So all of the used inventories up there, new releases that we're getting in is up there. You can go to the pinned post at the top of the Facebook page, click on used inventory. It'll show you what's in stock, but it'll also show you at the bottom. I think it shows you a lot of the new stuff that we have for sale, too. So that's a real easy way for you to figure out what's going on. From a personal podcast standpoint, we'd love for you to like our Facebook page. We are Flip It Out Pinball Podcast. You can find us on all social media, whether it be X, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook. Give us a like or a follow. It helps the algorithm. Well, and I know that we haven't even, you know, not to do like a retail store because we haven't even hit Halloween yet. But, you know, Christmas is right around the corner again. And, you know, I know this is your first year with us, but sales start to go crazy the closer we get to Christmas. So, you know, there is a particular game, especially while we always try to keep a good stock of games, you know, a lot of these games that haven't been produced for a while that we might have in stock now, the closer we get to Christmas, we might not. So, you know, not to create that artificial FOMO for you, but it is the truth, you know. So, you know, all of you that are looking for that amazingly most awesome Christmas present in the entire world of a pinball machine or especially hard to, you know, come by accessories like some toppers and things. I start start thinking about that stuff now. Obviously, a very thoughtful gift. I would be stunned and thrilled for the rest of my life if I ever received the pinball machine for the holidays. It's insane how many people that we have come in that that buy large gifts. I believe it. I believe it. Last year, I sold a couple of Nerf arcade games. Yes. For Christmas that people were literally getting for their kids or family. Blew my mind. But it's awesome. It's awesome. like you know i've been surprised by pinball machines before and stuff which i'm more than thankful for but dude it truly is like you if your family member is a hobbyist or somebody's a hobbyist like you cannot you can't get a more awesome well maybe a car maybe a new car with a giant bow new cars about the equivalent i mean as far as excitement for adults and that's a pretty good comparison i did notice that uh stern last call and elvira house of horrors they're vaulting it. So Avira, whatever's left out in the wild is left out in the wild for a minimum of two years with no guarantee that game goes back on the line. If you've not played Avira House of Horrors, highly recommend it. I love the game. You can order yours at FlippinOutPinball.com or email us at Ken or Greg at FlippinOutPinball.com. And we have seen the interest, not just because of that vaulting, but just because of the season that we're in. Yeah, of course. We've seen that title tick up this month already. Yep. I would have been in the pinball power rankings had we had that running. It would have been. this week, but we'll do it later. And I think that's it, man. Do you got anything else to add before we officially say goodbye so long and we'll see you in a couple of weeks? No, that's it, man. I'm looking forward to seeing everybody at expo. Thank you to all of our Patreon members for coming, hanging out with us the other night. Again, that was a blast. You know, hopefully we have some, you know, special, nice things lined up for, for expo come out and see Ken and I, uh, Zach, unfortunately cannot make it. Uh, he's got some family obligations, uh, that he already had prior, prior set up, uh, which I'm happy for him, you know, give him a little bit of a break from this world because yeah he deserves it man yeah 16 hour days seven days a week basically so yeah you know you guys are stuck with ken and i to uh raz you up and sell you some games and hang out and talk and chat everything pinball so you know make sure to make it out there to chicago expo next week yeah actually the dates on pinball expo october 16th that's a thursday 17th is a friday and then 18th which is saturday sunday is getaway day so you You know, you probably don't go there Sunday. Nothing really going on. So but that Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And then I think at some point, Greg, we'll talk about where we think we've got a good like hour or two. Or for those of you that are looking to maybe join us with the little cigar partaking at the expo, we'll get that on schedule. We'll meet outside somewhere in the parking lot and maybe just maybe just have a sticker. Yeah, definitely. All right, man. Well, I appreciate it. Episode 10 in the books, man. Congratulations on that for Greg Bone. I am Ken Cromwell. Don't forget to take some time out of your day Play some pinball So long everybody