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Episode 43 - System 11, Licenses, and Cylons

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 12m·held·Sep 10, 2017
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.028

TL;DR

Eclectic Gamers organizes System 11 tournament, debates 1990s pinball licensing deals.

Summary

Dennis and Tony discuss their recent pinball activities, including hosting a game night and meeting Nick Schnell of Nick's North American Pinball Tour. The episode centers on organizing a System 11 tournament and analyzing which pinball company had the best licenses in the 1990s (Bally Williams, Data East/Sega, and Gottlieb). They walk through tournament matchups and debate game quality based on gameplay experience and theme execution.

Key Claims

  • Sharkie's is the best game in Dennis's home lineup

    medium confidence · Tony's observation confirmed by Dennis; attributed to satisfying drops and callouts despite not being top-10 all-time favorite

  • The Freedom Prototype is an excellent game that should have won its tournament year

    medium confidence · Dennis defends the game against Slam Tilt Podcast's criticism; claims the middle pop works and flipper placement criticism is mathematically provable as wrong

  • Rob Zombie pinball is a terrible game that shouldn't be in tournaments

    medium confidence · Tony states this directly; game was shut down during 403 Club tournament due to screen malfunction

  • Bugs Bunny's Birthday Ball is 'the absolute worst System 11 ever created'

    medium confidence · Dennis's assessment; describes universal agreement on this game's poor quality

  • Data East/Sega had the best overall licenses in the 1990s pinball market

    medium confidence · Dennis and Tony's consensus based on volume and quality of licensed content, even if some games weren't well-executed

  • Dennis dislikes multi-level playfields in pinball games

    high confidence · Explicitly stated bias against upper playfields; mentioned regarding Grand Lizard and Black Knight 2000

  • Pinbot is Dennis's favorite System 11 game

    high confidence · Dennis directly states this when discussing Pinbot vs Road Kings matchup

  • The podcast Eclectic Gamers is discontinuing regular tabletop gaming segments

    high confidence · Dennis officially announces only pinball and video games segments will continue regularly

Notable Quotes

  • “I think Bally Williams, and this is where I'm running into the bias problem of just saying just the license itself was strong. Because most of the games I can remember from Sega Data East, they have good licenses, but the games aren't that good.”

    Dennis @ ~51:00 — Key statement distinguishing between license quality and game design quality in 1990s pinball

  • “they're wrong they're just wrong it's mathematically provable that they're wrong Because it works. Because if it didn't work, I wouldn't like it. There. Boom. Done.”

    Dennis @ ~5:30 — Humorous but emphatic defense of the Freedom Prototype against Slam Tilt Podcast criticism

  • “Bugs Bunny is universally agreed, I believe, to be the absolute worst System 11 ever created.”

    Dennis @ ~38:00 — Strong consensus statement about a particularly poorly-regarded System 11 game

  • “Rob Zombie's screen looked like it was having a conniption fit... That game should never be in a tournament anyway because it's a terrible game.”

    Tony @ ~12:30 — Critical commentary on Rob Zombie pinball's quality and tournament suitability

  • “Pinbot and if anyone's heard before, pen bot is my favorite system 11 game.”

    Dennis @ ~27:00 — Clear statement of Dennis's preferred System 11 game

  • “I hate the theme. Hate the theme. Mousing Around's got a better theme. But, yeah, between the two, I'm going to pick Jokers.”

    Tony @ ~32:00 — Shows theme preference doesn't always determine game choice; gameplay and layout matter more

  • “Black Knight 2000... the soundtrack alone, it's got the best soundtrack of any of the System 11 games.”

    Dennis @ ~45:00 — Highlights audio design as key differentiator in System 11 game quality

  • “I don't want it burned, but someone needs to just buy it and take it.”

    Dennis — Emphatic expression of dislike for Grand Lizard; shows degree of personal gaming frustration

Entities

DennispersonTonypersonNick SchnellpersonEclectic Gamers PodcastorganizationSlam Tilt PodcastorganizationMike Operson403 CluborganizationEric EckhorstpersonCarrie WingpersonTexas Pinball Festivalevent

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Eclectic Gamers organizing System 11 tournament with 30-game bracket based on Pinside rankings; public voting form created; planning to promote on social media

    high · Dennis describes seeding based on September 8 Pinside rankings, explains bracket structure, mentions providing vote link in show notes and promoting on Facebook

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong community agreement that Bugs Bunny's Birthday Ball is worst System 11 game; hosts expect minimal viable votes for it

    high · Dennis states it's 'universally agreed' to be worst; both hosts dismiss it without detailed discussion; expectation of 'troll vote'

  • ?

    community_signal: Nick Schnell (North American Pinball Tour operator) proposed System 11 tournament despite being known as EM specialist; indicated interest in guest hosting EM-centric episode over traditional interview

    high · Dennis notes Nick's suggestion came despite his EM focus; describes Nick's preference for guest host format over interview; characterizes proposal as surprising given his expertise area

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Rob Zombie pinball has screen/display malfunction issues; game was removed from tournament play at 403 Club during competitive event

    high · Tony describes screen 'having a conniption fit'; states game was 'shut down and taken out of the tournament'; indicates screen problems are recurring issue

  • ?

    event_signal: Freedom Prototype tournament result: game achieved runner-up placement at Texas Pinball Festival; hosts believe it should have won

    medium · Dennis references seeing Freedom Prototype at Texas Pinball Festival, states it received runner-up placement, explains they interviewed Nick Schnell because they thought it 'should have won'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.216

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, September 10th. It's episode 43. I'm Tony. And I'm Dennis. And we're here today. We're going to talk to you about some pinball and some video games. Yay! off. What have you been up to, Dennis? I'm so exhausted. We had a game night last night. We did. You were here. I hosted. We had some friends of ours over, like we typically do. We had some that don't normally make it as well, so we played some Jackbox, we played some Pinball, watched some Guardians Galaxy 2, so it went pretty well, I thought.
0:54
Oh, but before I go on, I did want to touch on, I thought about holding this to the pinball segment, but I'm going to go ahead and throw it out now. When we were downplaying, you made a comment that surprised me. You seemed to suggest that you thought that Sharkies was actually the best game in my lineup. And I thought that was interesting because I never really, I didn't really put any thought about what game of mine might possibly be my best game. But I guess I thought I would confirm it. One, is that accurate? into, if so, what is it about the game that you think makes it good? It could be the newness of the game. Just the fact that I've played all the others a whole lot.
1:33
But I think that has a lot to do with it. I still, it's just a really fun game. The drops are satisfying. The call-outs are satisfying.
1:44
It doesn't, I'm not to the, it could just be that I'm not to the point yet where it wholly annoys me at times because of some of the little crap. Like Star Trek is a good game, but sometimes I just can't make a shot and it just starts to anger me.
@ ~40:30
Pizza West
organization
FeedBurnerproduct
SoundCloudproduct
Pinsideorganization
System 11product
  • ?

    licensing_signal: Data East/Sega secured highest volume and quality of licenses for 1990s pinball despite execution variability; Bally Williams excelled at best games but Data East/Sega had broader licensing portfolio

    medium · Dennis and Tony analyze 1990s pinball companies' licensing approaches; agree Data East/Sega had most licenses overall even if game quality was sometimes poor; distinguishes between license strength and game design quality

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball arcade locations experiencing equipment condition degradation; tournament-level games requiring shutdowns mid-competition for repairs (screen issues, button recognition failures)

    medium · Tony describes Ghostbusters slimer malfunction, Rob Zombie screen failure requiring game removal; suggests pattern of 'poorer condition than normal' at 403 Club

  • ?

    community_signal: Dennis has strong personal design philosophy bias against multi-level/upper playfields in pinball games; explicitly acknowledged as subjective bias rather than objective game design flaw

    high · Dennis discusses disliking Grand Lizard's upper playfield despite its seeding; clarifies this is personal bias, not provable geometric issue like Freedom Prototype; affects game preferences throughout tournament

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Tony's opinion of Rob Zombie pinball deteriorating with increased play; game frustration increasing rather than engagement deepening

    high · Tony states 'the more I play it, the more I dislike that game'; describes initial liking of Rob Zombie (the artist) and artwork but game mechanics causing frustration; now refuses to practice and threatens tournament forfeit

  • ?

    technology_signal: Podcast discoverability issues caused by platform migration from keywords support to SoundCloud; hosts implementing subtitle workaround to improve search visibility

    high · Dennis describes FeedBurner/SoundCloud keyword loss issue; attempted iTunes search failed; added keywords and subtitle to improve findability; still testing effectiveness

    • 2:01
    And Firepower is a good game, and it's just a good game, period. I love Firepower. Jurassic Park is, I can take it or leave it. I don't hate it. I don't love it. It's a game.
    2:14
    But Sharkies is just a really satisfying game to play. Even yesterday, I had some terrible Sharky's games, some games that were just like, how do you even score this badly on this game?
    2:27
    And it was still fun. And I think there's just the satisfaction with the drops and the satisfaction with some of the other shots. I mean, I'm not saying it's not like it's moving into my, it's not in my, oh, this is the greatest game ever. It's not even in my, oh, this is in my top ten favorite games. So it hasn't displaced Attack from Mars yet? No. No, it's just in your actual lineup, I think it's a fight between it and Firepower for the games that I enjoy the most with Star Trek at number three. Okay, I was just curious. Let's see. Other things since our last episode I thought I'd note. Also in the pinball realm, I met up with Nick Schnell of Nick's North American Pinball Tour, who was our very first interview we ever did back on Texas Pinball Festival 2016.
    3:19
    So he was in town, and I didn't attend any of his EM session work or anything like that, but one of the local collectors, Mike O, allowed me to come over to his house. I'd never been there. He has a very nice collection, a lot of restored pins, which is what Nick does as well as do restoration.
    3:38
    We played a game. It was actually not an EM. We played Attack from Mars. Nick won. I doubt he'll post a picture of that one since it wasn't an EM challenge. He stumped me on a ballet class of 81 trivia. I was humiliated. I was so bad at it. I felt disgusted. I'm going to have to brush up on that. He did give a suggestion for a new tournament, which I'll get to in the pinball segment for our show.
    4:02
    And we did talk about – I was discussing with him about doing an interview when he was all settled and done with everything. But we'll actually shoot to see if we can arrange to have him on as a guest host and sort of do an EM-centric episode, which interested him more than doing another interview. But there was one thing I did want to note, and Tony wasn't able to make this event. It was late in the evening. But when we were talking, I realized that he had become confused at one point. He also did an interview with another podcast, which I really like to listen to, called Slam Tilt Podcast. but he mistakenly thought that we were the ones that did not like the freedom prototype when it was them who did not like the prototype i say freedom prototype is amazing yes so well i i did clarify that i went and it's not gonna be an issue because slam tilt guys i'm sure do not listen to this show and we don't criticize other podcasts but we can criticize their game selections they were very very very wrong to dislike the freedom prototype i'm going to tell you i'm going to tell you what's wrong with their philosophy they want cookie cutter lower third play fields that's their problem that's it it's that simple i've solved it that's the issue it's not the middle pop the middle pop is what makes that game work the problem is they don't have an issue with the middle pop they have an issue with how the flippers are placed to incorporate the middle pop but they're wrong they're just wrong it's mathematically provable that they're wrong Because it works. Because if it didn't work, I wouldn't like it. There. Boom. Done. So, no. We like the Freedom Prototype. That was actually why we interviewed Nick was we saw the Freedom Prototype at Texas. I believe it got runner-up that year. And we wanted to talk to him about it because we thought it should have won. Because that's what we do. We're winners here on Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Speaking of winning and then not winning, the final thing I wanted to note is I was talking to someone. Oh, this must have been over a month ago. And they said they were having trouble finding us when they were searching on iTunes. Like they searched for a keyword like pinball or video games or something, and we didn't pop up. And I searched on my podcast software and found us, and Tony searched on his podcast software and found us. But I finally went into iTunes, and I saw the issue. We didn't have any supporting keywords anymore because SoundCloud, when we moved to them, doesn't include those. I still route us through a service called FeedBurner. I turned off all the features because I could never remember if I had to make an adjustment. Do I just SoundCloud or do I just FeedBurner? So now I've gone in, I've stuck in the keywords. I don't know if they're working yet or not. Last I checked, they weren't. So I'm going to keep an eye on that. I also went in and stuck in a subtitle for us. So it mentions video games and pinball as a subtitle to the podcast, which again, we're not really renaming the podcast, but it's just to make it so people can actually find it because we don't incorporate any of the types of games we talk about in our name, which a lot of podcasts do. So they don't, they aren't as critically reliant on the keyword thing.
    7:02
    And as a final note, kind of relating to this, but I think it's obvious to all of our listeners is we are not continuing to regularly insert the tabletop segment. And that's just because we don't have enough content to talk about regularly on tabletop. So we'll still cover tabletop. It'll still be towards the end of the show when and if it's needed. But the only two regular segments at this point are pinball and video games. I think anyone who's listened to us over the last four months knows this is true, but I thought I'd just sort of officially get that out here so everyone heard it. So that's it for me. What's going on, Tony? Well, I have not had a lot going on other than the stuff you already talked about. We went to 403 Club last week, and I did pretty good. which is to say I won a game which for me is really good so I did not go two and out I was three and out what did you think of the did it seem to you sorry to cut in but did it seem like some of the games were kind of poorer condition than normal I got kind of borked by Ghostbusters because the Slimer wasn't registering and I had to completely change my strategy and did it too late I didn't play this but I looked over and Rob Zombie's screen looked like it was having a conniption fit. Yeah, it was messed up. They ended up shutting Rob Zombie off and taking it out of the tournament, which is good. That game should never be in a tournament anyway because it's a terrible game.
    8:28
    There, I said it. No, you're right. I don't like Rob Zombie. I don't like it at all. And the more I play it, the more I dislike that game, which is too bad because I like Rob Zombie himself.
    8:40
    I like the artwork, but the game, I just don't like it. You know what I've considered? If I was a better player, this would actually have meaning, but I'm so bad at pinball that I don't think anyone would care. But I've thought if it's still in tournament and I draw it because we do random draw at 403, then I'll just forfeit and say I refuse to put money in it. I don't practice it anymore. I haven't tried the new code. I'm so far past caring that I've only been willing to play it if I draw it at this point. But I'm starting to think, you know what, maybe I'll stand on the, you know, me and my whatever my rank is, 3,500 or whatever in the world. I'll stand there and I'll just go, no, no, I forfeit. I won't play that game. Just a thought. You make your stand. That's what you need to do is make your stand. That's right. Oh, the principles I'm dying for here. Incredible. yeah no I have been but other than those I haven't done a lot lately I found a new website store place where I was able to like that I'm not many people may know this but I'm kind of a notebook snob when it comes to like notebooks and stuff for work and I like really high quality notebooks instead of like your cheap spiral bound mead five cents for a three pack notebooks. I like like higher end notebooks so I ordered myself a couple new notebooks and stuff and that's really all I've done lately. I did start, I talked last time on our last episode I was talking about starting to go through the hunt for Red October again because I've been playing so much Cold Waters and I changed my mind instead of going hitting the hunt for Red October I decided to do Red Storm Rising which is also Tom Clancy but it has lots of submarines and everything else in it so it's still got a similar feel it's just not quite as directed so I went ahead and picked up the audio book of Red Storm Rising and started listening to that this week because I just finished my previous audio book which was The Stand you love the stand is that your favorite King book? I always got the impression it was yes, my favorite King book is the stand, my second favorite King book would be the talisman yeah, that's way up there for me I'd probably put Gunslinger at number 3 I wouldn't put the first Gunslinger at number 3 myself, I would probably say Wizarding Glass is the best written book of them all, followed by the drawing of the three, then followed by Gunslinger. I just like the layout and the kind of quick read and the way Gunslinger kind of flows. I really enjoy it. That's why I move it up. I would put Wizarding Glass as my second favorite Dark Tower book. And Drawing of the Three would be my third favorite Dark Tower book. I like Gunslinger, though, because it does stand alone very well. It does. The rest, not so much. So, yeah, but now that I think, I need to reread The Talisman. I wonder if I can get The Talisman on audiobook. Did you ever read the sequel? Yeah. Blackhouse? Yeah. It wasn't as good. It's not as good. It's okay. It ties into the larger metaverse really well. Okay. Well, cool. I like those books. And so let's tie this all in to our pinball segment. referencing back to the intro i mentioned that nick had suggested a tournament for us to run and i was going to wait a little bit longer but i decided nope i'm not going to wait any longer at all so we're going to do it and you may be shocked because he is known as an em guy but it was not a suggestion in the realm of em it was in system 11 he thought we should do a system 11 tournament to see what is the best of the system 11 series of games for those that aren't familiar system 11 is referring essentially to the board set and so we will have a link in the show notes where you can go vote it's the google forms i'm not doing authentication you don't need a google account you don't need it's not ranking in the in that weird heat map style we're we're back to the conventional approach so let those votes roll on in but i thought uh we could go over the matchups because system 11 this was a really good idea because tony and i have played most of these System 11 games, if not physically, at least virtually, because they've been very popular in Pinball Arcade. So I thought I'd walk through what the first matchups are. I should note that based off of the System 11 website is what I use to decide which games are quote-unquote System 11. I don't know if there's ever any discrepancies. I'm assuming not. They gave me a list of 30, and their seeding was based off of their ranking on Pinside as of the date that I built the voting form. So that'd be the 8th of September. So that's where the seeding numbers come from. If anyone cares, it summarizes all that when you go to the vote. But because of how that works with a 30 seed bracket, the first seed, which is Whirlwind, and the second seed, which is Elvira and the Party Monsters, have buys for round one. Everything else has a matchup, so we won't talk about those first two games. All right, so the first matchup is going to be F-14 Tomcat, 16 seed, against the 17 seed, which is Radical. What do you favor here? Radical. Me too. I mean, F-14 is a classic game. There's nothing wrong with it. I just enjoy Radical. Yeah, I do too. We had it briefly at 403, and I really like shooting it. I hate to admit it, but F-14 Tomcat, it's too fast. It's too fast for me. It makes me feel so old. that I just, I feel like I never, even when I've memorized exactly where the ball will go, I just can't get the timings down. It's just all those kickbacks are just, they're just too brutal for me. So I just, I feel frustrated more than I feel like I'm having fun on it. Next matchup, the eighth seed, which is Diner versus the 25th seed, the Bally Game Show. I've not played Bally Game Show. I've not played Bally Game Show either. So I can't make a valid choice here other than the fact that I enjoy Diner. Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and support Diner on it. And the reason is Diner is basically a lesser taxi, and I like taxi a lot. So I'm willing to stand by it. I do want to try the Valley Game Show. There was someone who was looking at getting one in the area, and I actually saw one for sale in Wichita a couple years ago that I contemplated, contemplated but the price was not a good enough deal to warrant me driving that far down so uh next matchup uh the ninth seed high speed versus the 24th speed uh seed police force so cop the cop police force that is the furry game yes the one you always call furry cops furry cops uh yeah high speed no no sure you came up with you came up with furry cops that sort of shows an appreciation furry cops is hilarious uh uh just because it's furry cops and but at the same time no high speed's just one of the greatest games ever yeah it is awesome i i agree with you high speed all the way next matchup the fourth seed earth shaker versus the 29th seed millionaire Here's another instance where I've not played Millionaire.
    16:28
    Yeah, same here. And Earthshaker's okay. It's probably my least favorite of the disaster themes. I actually was surprised to see that it was all the way up to the fourth seed. But against what I've read about Millionaire, I'm willing to go ahead and cast a vote to Earthshaker. Okay, next one. The 13th seed, Space Station versus the 20th seed, Fire. Space Station's good, but Fire is a beautiful game, and it's fun to play. I'm going to diverge from you here, and I'm going to say I'm voting for Space Station on this. I agree with you. Fire looks a lot better. I don't think the layout of Fire is very interesting, though. And I like the idea. Well, I don't always enjoy playing it the best. I thought I'll give kudos to Space Station for sticking those slings right up to those flippers and making it very hard to trap up. and I just think overall though the layout is a bit more interesting to me so for that reason I'm going to back Space Station. Works. All right, next one. Fifth seed, Pinbot versus the 28th seed, Road Kings.
    17:32
    Well, I've not played Road Kings but I've watched Road Kings played and it looks awesome but it's bloody Pinbot. So, Pinbot. Yeah, Pinbot and if anyone's heard before, pen bot is my favorite system 11 game. So I'm obviously going to choose pen bot. Uh, I have also not played road Kings. I've looked to try and play one. And you mentioned we seen it play That was we watched the stream with the women championships where our Carrie Wing from our area took second place And she owned that table as if it were Rome itself and she were at Senate But but even after all of that, I asked her about it because I said it made me really want to try Road Kings. And she just said, but Dennis, it's not a good game. So I'm going to take her advice on that. I'm going to stick with Pinbot.
    18:24
    Next matchup is going to be the 12th seed, Mouse and Around, against the 21st seed, Jokers. I have played both of these games, and I'm going to be 100% honest. I don't really like either of them that much. I know Mouse and Around is really popular, but I don't like it. I'm going to go with Jokers just because it's the one I'll dislike the least, but I don't like either. I agree with you. I don't like Mouse and Around. I don't like its layout. I don't like its rules. I don't like its center ramp all day exploit. And Jokers, yeah, I've played it a few times at Texas. I think it's okay. It would not be a game I would probably ever contemplate owning unless it was an incredible deal. But it had some interesting ideas. I hate the theme. Hate the theme. Mousing Around's got a better theme. But, yeah, between the two, I'm going to pick Jokers. I just think it's more interesting. Okay, next matchup. The 15th seed, which will be Roller Games, is going to go against the 18th seed, Bad Cats. I'm going to go with Roller Games. Roller Games! It's got that awesome back glass. It does. It's fun. But this will be a split for us because I'm going to actually go with Bad Cats. I've only played it virtually, but I like the idea. I think the theme integration is good. I think the sound effects are hilariously campy. and roller games I know I'm getting a little biased against because I can't think of the last one I played that was working completely and so I don't know I don't like the little magnet catch I don't like that loop ramp I think it's too steep for the game's own good so even setting aside how the game is playing itself I don't think that element was designed particularly well so I'm going to go with Bad Cats because I think it's better made alright next one will be the 7th seed, Banzai Run, versus the 26th seed, Big Guns. Well, these are both really good games.
    20:26
    I'm going to go with Banzai Run, because the whole back glass play thing is just a lot of fun. But, honestly, if these two games had been up against about half the rest of this list, they would have both won.
    20:44
    Yeah, this was sort of interesting, because Also, I really like both of these. I was surprised Big Guns is this far down on the seating, actually.
    20:52
    And interestingly enough, they both have back glass features because Big Guns has that little plinky thing that they're doing. I don't know what to call it. The little plungy thing that they've got going on there. But I agree with you. I think Banzai Run, I'm not a big Lawler fan, but that was a clever implementation. and just the sheer fact that they engineered for the ball to come up from the lower playoff field into the upper and then give you a significant game, which, yeah, you can start to memorize how to do it, but nonetheless, it's a challenge. It's just from an innovation standpoint alone, it deserves props. So, yeah, I agree with you.
    21:33
    All right, next one. The 10th seed, Swords of Fury versus the 23rd seed, Riverboat Gambler. Have you played Riverboat Gambler? Don't know if I've played Riverboat Gambler. I don't think I have. I've played Swords of Fury. We had it at 403 for a while. Yeah. I thought it was all right. I mean, I like Swords of Fury. I mean, more like, unless Riverboat Gambler is something really, really good that I've just somehow missed, I would have probably gone with Swords of Fury without it being a default. But, yeah, I'm going to go with Swords of Fury. Yep, I agree.
    22:06
    Next matchup. Oh, this one will be a challenge. It'll be the third seed, Taxi, versus the 30th seed, Bugs Bunny's Birthday Ball. Now, I know we've both played these. This is a challenge. Mm-hmm. Choose wisely. Why? Because no matter what I choose after the game's over, the game will just randomly decide who wins anyway. Hey, that's pinball. That's pinball. Yeah, no, this is Taxi without a doubt. Yeah. You know, this seeding in no way surprised me. And Bugs Bunny is universally agreed, I believe, to be the absolute worst System 11 ever created. And it does not deserve to advance. Let's see. You know what? I bet you some Redditor will give us a troll vote and give it at least something. But we'll find out. We'll find out.
    22:55
    The 14th seed is Grand Lizard versus the 19th seed, Dr. Dude. Hmm. You know, this one's a little tougher.
    23:04
    Really? Yeah. I mean, Grand Lizard has that kind of awesome music, sound, tone thing going on. And all Dr. Dude has going for it is everything else.
    23:22
    You're a dude. I'm going to have to go with Dr. Dude. Okay, I agree with you, but for me, I hate Grand Lizard. I hate it. Oh, really? Yes. I don't like playing it at all. We have it at Pizza West right now. I want it to be put out into a dumpster and lit on fire and taken away. I don't want it burned, but someone needs to just buy it and take it. I know. And part of this is, and this will come up a little bit on our next matchup to a slight degree. I think I just don't really like multi-level play fields. So I don't like that upper play field on Grand Lizard at all. I think it's way too easy to stay up there. and that's where all the points are at. And I just, Dr. Dude was not a game I liked very much when I first started playing it, but it really grew on me when we had it on location. It's not a top five game for me, but it is a top 10 game in the System 11 realm. But I just think that it makes you do more shots. I think it's got a pretty good theme integration, obviously very campy, but overall, I just think it's, I just think it's more fun to shoot. I think is a better shooter as well. So, yeah, it wasn't even close. I was amazed Dr. Dude was rated lower than Grand Blizzard. I wouldn't have put Grand Blizzard above 20th. Oh, see, I don't mind Grand Blizzard. I kind of like it even. I'm just not better than Dr. Dude. No, a lot of people like it. I just know what it is is the upper play field. I just don't like it. And I don't like most games with an upper play field. So that's just – and I'm not going to argue that like Wide Bodies, I'm not going to argue that there's a geometric proof out there. That's just a bias of mine. For whatever reason, those playfields, I just don't like them as much.
    25:10
    Speaking of which, that's sort of the next matchup. We have the sixth seed, which is Black Knight 2000, which has an upper playfield, versus the 27th seed, Pool Sharks. I've not played Pool Sharks. Nor have I. We discussed that because Pool Sharks was in our last tournament we ran. Yeah. So it will be a default to Black Knight 2000. But let's be honest, Pool Sharks would have had to have been bloody amazing to beat Black Knight 2000. Oh, yeah. Because Black Knight 2000 is a great game. It is. Of the ones with upper play, I enjoy playing it quite a bit more than Black Knight. It might be a little too easy of anything versus Black Knight, which is incredibly brutal. But the soundtrack alone, it's got the best soundtrack of any of the System 11 games. Oh, yeah. Easy. It's fun. I mean, it'd probably drive you crazy all day if you were working in an arcade and you had it nearby you. But from a playing standpoint, it really works. I'm always bopping my head along when I play it.
    26:08
    And our last matchup for round one will be the 11th seed, Cyclone, versus the 22nd seed, Transporter the Rescue. I'm going to go with Cyclone.
    26:19
    If Transporter is the game I'm thinking of, let me look it up real quick. It's the one that you've played at Todd's. It's the one with Cthulhu eating the spaceship. That's what I was thinking it was.
    26:30
    You know, it's not a bad game at all. I actually kind of like it. But I do enjoy Cyclone a lot. Yeah, I am. And here will be another one of our splits. I'm actually going to back Transporter on this. I think Transporter is seeded so low because it's relatively rare as a System 11, and most people haven't played it. I don't love either of these games. I don't I can barely remember Cyclone it has never clicked for me I know some people are really big fans of it Transporter again though I think it's got some fairly clever layout ideas I don't think it's a great shooter but I'm going to go ahead and back it overall because I also don't particularly enjoy shooting Cyclone I probably in the minority as the seating would suggest on this but I'm willing to give Cthulhu his chance to give us some Cosmic Horror. Yeah, no, they're both, I give them both a very good solid okay. I think these are one of the ones where it's a tougher matchup because they're against each other than it would be if they were against, you know, like a Banzai run or a Big Guns or a High Speed or something. Yeah, no, then they'd all easily die. That would be. Right. Well, I guess we'll end up seeing that in subsequent rounds. Yeah, we will. So that's the matchup. 28 games going at it. Obviously a whirlwind and Elvira will make their appearance in round two.
    27:51
    So we'll keep everyone informed. As I noted, there's a link in the show notes to go to the vote. I will get it out on Facebook eventually as well, as I typically do, because we'll probably have some people that will go and vote that don't typically listen. And that's fine. The more the merrier. But that will be our 2017 System 11 pinball tournament. So one other pinball topic, I thought. Another fun one. We're just doing fun ones. there's no news this week that I thought was worth talking about. I was having an online discussion with Eric Eckhorst, actually, and we somehow, it started somewhere completely different. I think we're talking about NVRAM chips, but it eventually got into the realm of licensing and pinball. And he thought this would make a good pinball segment for the show. And I was like, you're right. So let me steal it. And it was, What pinball company do you think had the best licenses in the 1990s? So for the purposes of this discussion, let's do 1990 through 1999.
    28:53
    And I guess your choices would obviously be Bally Williams. Kind of they're combined at this stage. Data East and Sega because Data East became Sega in the latter part of that decade. Gottlieb, which didn't make it all the way through the decade. But it's Premier Gottlieb, I guess you could say. and I think it was under Premier's control the entire time there. Or if there's another you might want to throw out, like Capcom or something, I'm open to it, but most of the others just don't have enough years to even be competitive. And what we mean by best licenses is not which one of the games, not which pinball games were the best, which ones went with the best licenses. And it can be any license. It just has to be a licensed content, TV show, movie, band, whatever. I don't care. So what's your thinking when you think back on the games from the 90s and the ones you know were licensed? What company do you think did the best licensing deals? Well, I think Data East and Sega probably had the most, if I'm remembering right. I'm pretty sure you're right.
    30:02
    But were the ones that they got overall, was that volume also the best of them? I think Bally Williams, and this is where I'm running into the bias problem of just saying just the license itself was strong. Because most of the games I can remember from Sega Data East, they have good licenses, but the games aren't that good. But we're focusing on what had the strength of the license.
    30:33
    It's not much of a debate, at least with the pinball community. if I were to say what company had the best games of the 90s, licensed or not, everyone's going to choose Valley Williams. Yeah, I mean, I think Sega Data East will end up with it just because they had enough that even the ones they messed up, they were able to get good licenses. I agree. In fact, I agree so overwhelmingly that I don't even find it, it's almost not worth discussing other than to sort of celebrate the concept. So I actually, because I knew this ahead of time, I went through and started looking up the list of the games from the 90s from these manufacturers. And I was originally trying to track like the ones I thought were a winner license and a loser license and also just kind of like a meh. You know, it's an OK license, but it's not not great or bad or whatnot. And I just I threw those out because there are too many of them. So here is my sort of breakdown by those three I grouped. So Premier Gottlieb had the least, which isn't surprising. they were so cheap they usually didn't license and they also pretty much were out of the game by 96 so with that said their winner licenses i could only identify three from the 90s super mario brothers was a winning license the game's not any fun but it's a good license oh man my hand's shaking just from wanting to grab and throttle the mic and scream at you but you're right it's a good license it's just not a good game it's a good license the license was that was a smart i mean mario at that time same thing with street fighter 2 i've not played street fighter 2 but from everything i've heard it is by some people arguably the worst gottlieb game from the 90s but street fighter 2 was huge i played street fighter 2 in the 90s all the time it was a great license to grab and then i i think the third and final winning license i thought they went with was Stargate, which actually turned out to be a decent game. But it was a good license. It ended up getting a TV show. I do enjoy Stargate, the game. I enjoyed Stargate the movie. I enjoyed Stargate the TV show. Now, of the rest of the licensing that they grabbed, where I thought they grabbed a real stinker of a license, Waterworld was a mistake, and Barbed Wire. Barbed Wire was a mistake. Those were not good movies. no no i mean just just based off box office performance they're going to be considered based off but yeah and well i mean neither of those were really good movies anyway i think water world's sort of fun in a campy way dennis hopper carries the film um well yeah but that's because he just chewed all of the scenery yes yes and barb wire i don't remember i know i've seen it i saw it once but i just don't remember it all right so so gotley was in the worst position Then Bally Williams. Bally Williams did a lot of original themes in the 90s. It's part of the reason why I think you see a lot of pinball people kind of longing for original themes.
    33:34
    It's derived, I believe, based off of this. But they did do a number of licenses as well. But which ones were the winning licenses? So most of these games are good. So in the winners, I'd say Terminator 2 was a winning license, and it's a good game. it's one of the best movies ever yep so that was a great score Indiana Jones which they used for Indiana Jones the pinball adventure based off of the trilogy of the Indiana Jones movies great score awesome Star Trek the next generation yeah solid grab one of the maybe the most popular probably not with Trekkies overall but it is one of the strongest viewership Star Trek's ever so very good very good one and then uh in the case of bally uh the adams family yeah was a was a huge a lot of people who weren't around then may not understand but there was a reason why there were 20 000 of those games and it wasn't just that the game was fun the movie was a really good license it was a very popular movie it got a sequel now the loser licenses uh movie wise demolition man I think Demolition Man is fun but I did go back and check the box office performance it did not do well yeah but so there's a lot of things that didn't necessarily do well in a box office performance that are still considered really good movies I think Demolition Man is a really good movie I mean if you look at the box office the fifth element wasn't great and I think that was a really good movie Demolition Man is under debate I was listening to that new Australian podcast Head to Head Pinball and one of them said he went back, he loved Demolition Man, and he just went back and watched it, hated it. Really? So it definitely has some people who think it didn't hold up. I mean, it's been probably upwards of a decade since I've seen it.
    35:31
    So given its performance and its splitting of people's opinion on whether or not it was a good action movie, I'm just going to kind of, I'm classing it as a loser, mostly based off of its fiscal performance. Got a problem with it? Sue me. Next, The Flintstones. Do you remember that one with John Goodman? Here's the thing. I actually really love that pinball machine, but it was a bad movie. I don't think... Most of these pinball machines I think with only one in this list of losers the machines are good Decent to good Well here the thing Bally losers are better games than any of Sega Data East winners I'll go there. I'll say it. That's cruel. You're looking at my notes, so you know what my list says. I did look at your notes. And you know what? I think that's probably fair. well let me get through the rest of the losers really quick on the Williams side I'm doing the Williams side first was after Flintstones was Johnny Mnemonic was not a good movie the pins debated as whether it's got good flow I don't really have a lot of experience on I'm not big on it it's okay it's not bad it's not like like I said Flintstones it's terrible terrible license it was a terrible terrible movie I enjoy the game it's fun it's not deep it's not like it's whoa this is my favorite game it's fun. Demolition Man is a fun game that I really like. Johnny Mnemonic is like, okay. Yep, I played it. And then this one, here's where I split on my style. Star Wars Episode I. Box office wise, very successful movie. But it is pretty universally panned at this stage. This is also the only bad pinball machine in this list. I don't think it's total trash. I just think Revenge for Mars is a much more enjoyable game for Pinball 2000.
    37:26
    Yeah, no, I agree. And then on the ballet side, there's Judge Dredd, which... Now, this gets weird, because I think they ran with the comic theme on the pinball machine, which was smart, but I believe that it was done because the Sylvester Stallone movie came out, which was a bad movie. That's why I've listed it on losers. Yeah, the Sylvester Stallone movie was just campy junk. And I also, where you referenced and we'll get to on the Data East Sega winners, I do not think Judge Dredd is better than a number of those games.
    38:03
    And the last one is The Shadow, which was a pretty bad movie and is a pretty great pinball machine. Yeah. Where I do agree with you that it beats everything on the winners list on Data East. Yeah, pretty much. Shadow is an amazing game. But the movie was really, really bad. Really bad. Going through the list of Bally Williams, which ran from 90 to 99, I only identified four real winner licenses. Now let's talk about the Data East and Sega, where I have, what, 12?
    38:37
    Yeah. Data East and Sega had good licenses. They just made bad games. 13. I have 13. And, yeah. So they work for the license angle. And I think that's why you see Stern continue to do that, which was the successor to Sega. And there was a reason for it because people identify well with license. So just in terms of going over on the Data East side, the winners, Back to the Future, great, great movie.
    39:08
    The Simpsons, great TV show. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, whether or not you want to argue it was great, it was popular.
    39:17
    Batman, we're talking Keaton Batman. So, yeah. It was a great movie. That was the first comic book movie I think of that was actually seen as a respectable movie. Yeah. No, I agree. Star Trek. This is back to the original trilogy show. Not trilogy. It's sort of the original trilogy. Well, I'm trying to think if it was based on the show or based on the original cast movies. It's kind of a blend because it's sort of an anniversary thing. It doesn't matter. it was good good choice star wars original trilogy so smart jurassic park huge hit movie smart and then on the sega side apollo 13 hit movie golden eye pierce broson's best james bond movie independence day great 90s action movie star wars trilogy again this one called star wars trilogy but and again based on the original trilogy so smart license the x-files super successful tv show and south park super successful tv show all of those licenses are winners those are all very good licenses now i agree with you that the shadow as a pinball machine is better than all of those pinball machines judge dread i don't know i think jurassic park is better than judge dread i think golden eye is better than judge dread i think star wars uh the daddy star wars is better than judge dread i don't know about the rest yeah i don't i haven't put a lot of time in a number of these uh and then what licenses that i could find that were true losers i mean they had a number of licenses that i just kind of thought were meh but like the bad license decisions they ran with last action hero i enjoyed the movie but it was a bomb oh yeah It wasn't not the world-changing thing.
    41:13
    Maverick, the movie. I enjoyed the movie. I did too. It was not successful. Batman Forever. Okay, not your worst Batman, but... It's not Batman and Robin. No, it's not Batman and Robin, but... And this is a case where you could, much like in the Bally Williams side on The Losers, where you could argue the pinball machine is better than the movie for Batman Forever. Incidentally, Batman Forever is when we're starting with Sega, the last action hero of Maverick, Redatta East. Lost World Jurassic Park, that's a bad movie. Yeah, that was terrible. Catchphrase.
    41:54
    And Godzilla, and that's based on the That's a Lot of Fish Godzilla. So that was a loser license. Yeah, that was a terrible license. Terrible, terrible license. That pin's okay, though. I've played it. It's okay. so anyway no and when it came to the world of picking great licenses data east slash sega oh they knew what they were doing they knew and it's just too bad that the person who knew what they were doing wasn't combined with somebody who knew how to make a game yeah it's i mean well you know all the talent at the time was employed at bally williams but they went with a strategy of trying to get people to drop quarters based off of knowing what the what the theme is and and it It kind of gets back to, well, I'm not going to launch into a whole segment on the value of licensing, but there was an active pin side discussion I saw that started maybe less than 48 hours ago. And it was talking about things about what they wanted to see out of pinball design. But some of the suggestions coming in have been go back to original themes, go back to original themes. And it's like I kind of get it. But from unless it's just saved them so much money, it's not a smart move. It's just not. No, it's not. It's one of those things that if you can make a game that is really, really, really good and has an original theme, you can make a game that's really, really, really good and uses a license, and you'll sell a lot more, and you'll make a lot more money. Yeah, and that's it fundamentally. the even though things have moved more to the homeowner from being almost exclusively operator driven the same principles in play if you can identify with the concept it's going to be more and more attractive how many people bought big lebowski because it was a good player which a lot of people say it's a good player versus how many bought it just because they love big lebowski it was the same layout and it was an original theme it would sell less it's true for everything unless your license is a total stinker. Then you might actually hurt your sales. But if you've got a decent, safe license, there are going to be people that just want that theme. So in their home, just like they were more likely to drop quarters in it if they saw Luke Skywalker on it versus they just saw a weird clown.
    44:09
    So, I mean, it doesn't make sense. And I think some of the issues are driven by people thinking that there can be less creativity when you're confined by a license, and that's true. You're confined by a license, especially artistically. Yeah, definitely artistically. But I think most of them... You see that from the mass of kind of Photoshop backgrounds and play fields that were so big there for a while. And I say big. They're not big like they were a good thing. They were just common.
    44:43
    Yeah. Yeah, they're just done. But, you know, photo backglasses go all the way back to Gottlieb in the 80s. there's not when i look back at older pinball machines with very few exceptions i don't think the art's that stellar i i don't it's hand-drawn but it's not often great it's not masterpiece hang on the wall in a no in the louvre sort of stuff i mean i'll give j-pop a lot of grief for a lot of stuff he did even on his older designs which i don't think were that swell but he usually partnered up with a pretty good art artist and had some really elaborate nice looking play fields and back glasses and we're seeing we're seeing but we're seeing more of that now where the light even with licenses when you have something like ghostbusters which was willing to let zombie yeti get very creative or aerosmith which i think is an incredible looking pen and a pretty good player you know i think there's uh there's still some hope even with licenses but you you there are some shackles. There are some shackles. So that's it for pinball. Let's go to video games. Video games. Yeah. Well, you know, I know it's been two weeks since our last episode, but apparently as of this last week, everything is destiny to destiny to destiny to, are you playing destiny to Tony? No, me neither.
    46:04
    But it's out and it's apparently doing okay. Yeah. I heard someone on another podcast. I don't remember which one. They were talking about that there were people in a line outside of GameStop or something waiting to get their Destiny 2 physical card. I didn't get it. I was like, you can digitally download all this stuff. Why are you in line? Yeah. The reviews, I've looked at some review summaries. It seems basically to be it's improved on everything, essentially, out of Destiny, but probably not truly enough to be worthy of being called Destiny 2. It's more like Destiny 1.5. But if you love Destiny, where Destiny ended up with all its DLC, this will probably be the game for you. So if you guys are into that, go out and get it. I don't have it. I don't have it on my wish list. I did the demo of Destiny 1. I didn't like it. And I know they improved the game significantly since then, but I'm more than happy sticking with my hero shooter. I do not need an MMO-esque raid-orient grind-up and try and hunt things repeatedly in a first-person shooter. It's just not my thing. Yeah, no, it's not my style. I haven't really done anything MMO-ish since. I mean, I've played a couple things that would qualify as MMO-ish since WoW. You did like Eve, right? Like Eve, but Eve's like its own special animal. that it's like Eve is like the ex-girlfriend that you still want to, you know, meet up and talk to occasionally, but you quickly remember just how crazy they are. That's kind of how Eve is. I mean, I love Eve, and I would love to play more Eve, but it feels more like a job and a time sink than I really have the time or desire to pour that kind of energy into anymore. So I'm not playing it, but I wouldn't turn it away if I had the chance to play it again. Okay, I get it. It's not like WoW, where WoW, I have no interest in going back to WoW. No, no. And I have no interest in going back to Final Fantasy 11 Or I have no interest in starting Final Fantasy 14 I played a little bit of Star Trek Online But I don't really have any interest in going back To it because it wasn't that great But Eve is a game Where it's like well I always know exactly I can do something there and it might be the Dumbest thing and it might be me sitting For literally 10 hours Just staring at my screens with stuff being like half autoed, half not really paying attention to it while it does stuff on one screen, while on the other screen I'm staring and waiting for a chance to blow up somebody's ship and run away, hopefully without dying myself. But, no, it's not something I'm going to jump back into, and I don't think any MMO that is anything that I'm going to jump back into anytime soon, unless something magic happens.
    49:19
    Well, let's jump into something else entirely then. Tell me about Cylons. Do you like Cylons? I like Cylons. They're very interesting.
    49:29
    A couple months ago, a couple episodes ago, I mentioned and we talked about Battlestar Galactica Deadlock had released some gameplay trailers and was coming out. Well, the game actually came out. and it's better than I thought. I mean, this is not a world-changing game. This is not something that I think anybody or everybody should own. It's not something magical like that. But if you like the kind of game that it is, so a tactical strategy game, it's turn-based, it's very solid. it. And when I say it's turn-based, I mean you plot all your ship movements and you do all of that stuff and then you end turn and the other player does the exact same thing and then everything happens simultaneously.
    50:23
    And then you plot your next round of movements and stuff. It's fun. It's actually deeper than I had originally thought it was going to be. I thought it was just going to be kind of a tactical thing. It has a light strategic element. I mean, it's not super deep, but it is enough that you have four areas that you have to defend, so you have to build up and deploy fleets and work your stuff together to do missions and stop incoming Cylon raids. There's big story missions and there's smaller missions. It's deeper than I thought, and it's a lot of fun. It's not a perfect game. It's got some issues. The UI's clunky Not like game-breakingly clunky But it's a little clunkier than I would like It feels like it could be smoother Sometimes, like some of the strategic stuff Like fleet work Like laying out your fleets and redesigning your fleets And shifting ships from one fleet to another Is way clunkier than I think it needs to be and one of the big issues I had with it they've actually fixed with like the raids and stuff there can be so many of them and you can outpower the enemy so much that you're guaranteed to win and it'll pop up a thing that says that'll let you just auto it where you hit the auto button and it just auto does it it would tells you it's like a 100% chance to win it's like oh okay click well apparently a 100% chance of win doesn't mean a 100% chance to win without taking losses. So I did that and I actually lost one of my only Battlestars in an auto-machines. Oh yeah, it was bad because at the time I had three fleets built and I only had two Battlestars.
    52:17
    Two of the fleets were commanded by a Battlestar and I had a couple frigates. One of the fleets was commanded, it was my base which your home base is like a shipyard but you can jump it from system to system from planet to planet and it's basically just like a fighter base. It's got almost no defenses, but I was using these three fleets because there's four areas to defend. So I'm kind of moving them around. And then I lost one of my battle stars. And I didn't even have the, the, the tellium or anything built up to manufacture another battle star to start my fourth fleet. And suddenly I'm having to replace a battle star in my third fleet. It's like, wow, if I thought I was going to lose a battle star, I would not have auto completed that mission. And I actually stopped auto completing anything at that point. but they already released a patch the game came out on the 31st and the patch came out on the 7th so one week after release and the patch included now there's a thing that says you have a 100% chance to win and a 25% chance to lose a ship or a 0% chance to lose a ship so you can judge if it's worth taking the risk of losing a ship to win that by autoing it or play it yourself.
    53:33
    How's the AI? It's not terrible. It's not like the AI is going to be doing anything really fancy. I'm not set on the hardest difficulty. Maybe it's different on the hardest difficulty. But on the difficulties I'm playing, it does pretty standard stuff. It will make choices that are like, hey, that was a good choice. Instead of being able to decoy them with some little ship they blow past my little ships to go after whatever their actual target is which is better than some games I played
    54:08
    But it's not anything amazing, but it's not so bad that the game's too overly easy. The game does get kind of rote. Once you figure out a strategy that works, you can typically... I very rarely lose ships at this point, but also at this point most of my fleets are overpowered because I've been building them up. I'm 21 hours into the game. I have done none of the multiplayer stuff yet. I haven't even looked at it, but it could be stronger. Like I said, I haven't tried it on the hardest difficulty yet. I've been swapping my playtime between Deadlock and I'm still playing a lot of Cold Waters now on the hardest difficulty. And that's hard.
    55:02
    So we'll see. Once I finish this playthrough of Deadlock, I'll probably crank it up to a harder difficulty and we'll see if the AI gets a lot better. But it's not terrible. It's just pretty standard. It's pretty bog standard. Would you recommend it if people were only interested in the single player? Not at this price point. Wait for it to come down. Honestly, I probably wouldn't recommend it at the price point period as is.
    55:32
    It's a little expensive. It is $40. And I think it would make a lot more sense at $30. $20 is You know, freaking at $20 You might as well buy almost any game at $20 But At $30, I think $30 would be a sweet spot for this game At $40, it's a little High But it's not bad It's got some Really It does the aesthetic really well If you like the reimagined Battlestar Galactica It covers that aesthetic really well And it covers the music It's got the music and sound From the Show So it Audibly it is beautiful as well The music's good When you finish a mission After you finish a mission There's a cam and you can watch The replay Where it'll show the entire replay in real time And the computer will automatically change cameras as it plays but it's like the cameras in the TV show where you know it jumps to a camera and it's a little shaky and zooms in real quick it's kind of got that feel which is nice or you can actually go through and you can change your shots and you can record your own video with all the exact views you want so it's a real nice bit of usability there and that I would not be surprised to see people making some pretty fun video clips and stuff from, but I've not messed with it a whole lot either. So it's really high on the aesthetics.
    57:15
    The aesthetics are really good. I like that look. Okay. Well, let's see. Next on our list, I had figured we finally needed to work in an Overwatch update. We probably should have touched on it last... Actually, not probably. We really should have touched on it last episode. However, there are many, many conditions we have to agree to if we bring Dawn on. and one of them is that we have to keep our overwatch talk to a minimum because he doesn't care so now that he's not here we're allowed to talk about it so uh blizzard has been reworking a lot of stuff in overwatch and a number of the the changes are already out so and i think we did actually at don's behest we ended up bringing up a few of the elements i don't remember exactly which ones we touched on but for example the junk rats awesome junk rat now junk rats meta now apparently he can fly as i describe it he basically flies he jumps he jumps with style he jumps so much that he's essentially achieved flight there i think there's the definition that's been achieved he achieves flight he doesn't get when he lands he's achieved flight so yeah so he got um upgrade in terms of a doubling of his minds which he can use a mind to fly up in the air, jump really high, as Tony would describe it. This was always the case, except now he's got two. So he could jump and now throw another mine, for example, to attack instead of having to wait for the cooldown to redeploy his mine, which he used to get up in the air in the first place. So it gives him a lot more ability to actually dive. He was not part of the dive comp. I'd still say he probably isn't part of the dive comp, but he's actually able to fight characters in the air now. and it's easier for him to do a lot of damage by actually getting up close because he can go in and then still have one of his major abilities. So that has been a huge improvement for the character and I say meta because we are actually in the pro scene seeing a lot more uses of the character, which I think was their goal. Blizzard seems to have a broad goal that they want all the characters to be viable for people to play and there's often a lot of waiting that has to go in, waiting in the sense of balancing that applies at the high level versus what's going on at the lower tiers. So, for example, I play at gold tier when I play competitively. So I'm about halfway up the tier, I guess. And what I see in my tier is not the same as what you see at the high level. At the high level is where the meta is defined. So Junkrat's now meta on some maps.
    59:54
    The other things are still in test process. They're on what's called the PTR, so they're on the test server. One is Mercy, which is actually the character I had the most competitive hours in last season, and currently do this season as well. She's a healer. They are dramatically reworking her, but they're still trying to get the balance just right. What we do know is that her ultimate ability is changing. It has been, from the start of the game, a mass res, a resurrection. So she would be able, once charged, to go in, and then within a certain radius of wherever her character is, anyone who is down but not yet respond she would was able to revive with maximum health the problem has been that this has never been particularly viable technique at the high level it's too easy for the other team to have they already had the advantage because they killed everyone and then they would wait everyone get rezzed and they would immediately be in the better position because everyone's where they died so it just didn't she wasn't a popular choice at the high level competitive she partnered well with the with a pharah character which could fly and do rocket damage but other than that you really don't see mercy so what they've done now is she gets a one person res every 30 seconds as a regular ability and her ultimate ability is her valkyrie mode where it immediately resets her res cooldown she gains the ability to truly fly She flies around on her own, she has infinite bullets in her gun, and she can, while that's going, res every 10 seconds instead of every 30 seconds. The ability itself lasts 20 seconds, and if she pockets or uses, she has a stream gun, kind of like Team Fortress 2's medic character does. When she's in Valkyrie mode, if she's healing someone or damage boosting someone with one of those streams and another person is nearby them, it chains. So you just like see this web of her ability. So she could actually multi-heal while she's in Valkyrie mode. What they've been doing, however, is in terms of the tweaks, when she was in Valkyrie mode, she was a death machine. She was high level people on the PTR were flying around headshotting everyone and just raining death. And she became Apocalypse Pony instead of Mercy. Apocalypse Pony. Yes. And so while I thought it sounded really, really fun, she is a support character. She's really not supposed to be raining death from above. That's Farrah's job. So they seem to be making adjustments, like making her gunfire slower while she's in that mode, things like that, trying to get it so that she's not quite so OP. But it is looking like she should be significantly different when she's finally released. and it sounds like Blizzard's main goal with regards to Mercy was I think in part to get her more in the meta but also that they wanted to make her more fun to play because what had become the strategy for Mercy players is once you earned your ultimate for Resurrection you didn't stay and heal your team anymore you hid you found a corner and you cowered there and you hid and you waited for your team to wipe and then you would try and get in and do the mass res because you were actually better to get them all back up with full health than trying to keep them up in the first place. I did not play that way, usually, as Mercy, but a lot of people did. Well, it makes sense. The problem is it's not fun, though. Well, yeah, no, I'm not saying anything about it being fun. It just makes sense. So they're trying to make it more fun. So that's Mercy. And the other character that's getting yet another reworking, again, is D.Va. The tank, they can never figure out how they... She and Roadhog are the two tanks that are always getting tweaked. So they're making more changes to D.Va. D.Va kind of fell out of fashion after the triple tank went away. And then she came back in fashion because D.Va counters everything. She has an ability called Defense Matrix, which absorbs a ton of different attacks. And she can eat several ults, like Zarya's Graviton Surge. She can eat it. She can eat a Pulse Bomb. She can essentially eat Pharah, Reigning Justice, or a Death Blossom from Reaper. So she's very, very strong with her defense matrix, which she could keep up quite a bit. They've shortened the cooldown on the defense matrix. I think it's now down to two seconds. They're still doing tweaks on how fast they want it to recharge. They decided it was recharging too slow, so last I heard, they bumped it back up by a quarter, 25%. They also gave her some mini-missiles that she'll be able to fire, so she doesn't just have her guns, which they had nerfed her damage back a while ago to make her damage more consistent. This is always a joke when I'm playing Overwatch. I always talk about, oh, D.Va, she's coming for me with her really consistent damage. Yeah, she's consistently lame at long distance. And up close, she's consistently not impressive, but consistent. So anyway, they're giving her some little mini missiles, which are kind of like little Pharah missiles. They don't have as much splash. They don't have as much damage. and they're still tweaking those. Last I heard, they had to scale back the damage on them because they were seen as too powerful. Because she's a tank. You don't want her to be a DPS. But they're trying to make her a little more interesting to play and not just my job is to stand here and put up defense matrix whenever anyone's trying to use ultimate abilities, which is what she became. That's really all I have in terms of an Overwatch summary on the updates. Now, quick D.Va question. I know when I first read about the changes, one of the things they've added and I don't know if it's still in there or if it's been bounced but didn't they change it so she could shoot while boosting or did they pull that out? I believe that is still there. Yes. Good point. I should have known that. I don't know what they're going to... It's interesting. On console at least the cancel for her boost is the shoot button so I'm wondering what they're going to change. Oh, interesting.
    65:47
    Probably just switch cancel to the other trigger. but yeah, no, and that's an interesting change, yeah. So normally the strategy would be with D.Va is you would boost into someone and maybe hit your melee attack to punch them or something. You want to try it or just use her mech itself to try and boot people off the edge. It's a fairly popular tactic. But yeah, she will actually be able to shoot while flying. But what she could do in the past was boost while defense matrixing. I mean, she'll still be able to do that, but with only a two-second defense matrix, it's way shorter than it was. Yeah, and I mean, that's a concern because, I mean, between her massive hitbox and her massive headshot capabilities, even after they've made adjustments to it, she's still, without Defense Matrix, it doesn't take much to just destroy her. Right, she used to stand up to damage a lot better. Yeah, and with her being able to throw it up only for two seconds, I mean, that's like a Zarya bubble amount of time there, except for it doesn't get you all the bonuses, and you can't do anything else while you're doing it. so it turns into we'll throw it up a little i need to wait until i know there's big shots coming in to protect myself or somebody right next to me i have to wait until i know there's an alt coming into ethiel and then it's down and i just hope i don't get melted while i wait for it to recharge yeah i'm not entirely certain what their hope is with diva based off of the changes they're making my guess is they want to make her more of a dive character it's kind of funny because it seems like I think Blizzard has had a goal to break the dive meta. They went from triple tank to the dive meta, and I think they want to break the dive meta, but they want to keep it viable. They don't want it to go away, but they don't want it to be, oh, you have to do the dive meta. Yeah. But D.Va wasn't in the dive meta when it came out. Not in an attack dive in sort of role, even though her mech's really good at that, because they took away all the damage she used to have in triple tank. It used to be she would be the one to fly up in her ass, and she could melt faces. And then they scaled back all that damage to make her more consistent and they made her mech able to be destroyed so much easier that she wasn't, unless she had a pocket and she didn't in the meta, there was no way, she couldn't stay up. Winston could get back out easily. He was better positioned for it. His shield, they reworked it so that he could get in and protect himself better than D.Va could. Because as you've noted, D.Va can't defense matrix and attack. Except for when she's trying to boop. And that's not a lot of damage. So I'm wondering if they're trying to let her actually go in sort of in a more offensive tank role, but not taking her back to what she was where she was. There were very few characters that felt confident fighting a D.Va one-on-one. Yeah. It kind of went the other way where, yeah, with Defense Matrix, she can withstand just about everything. but now she's not going to have much of a defense matrix. I think it's also they're doing the defense matrix change, I'm assuming, so that it's actually harder for her to eat ults because if you thought people were ready, it was really just hold down that trigger and just kind of, you know, you had a lot of wiggle room to await things. I mean, you know, certain ults are telegraphed, for example. If Reaper has gone into his ghost mode and he's coming right for your team, you know he has Death Blossom. Yeah, and it'd be nice to have enough uptime on your thing, on your defense matrix, to block it all. But I don't think two seconds is enough. No, no, I don't think so. It's also not going to be long enough to block an entire Pharah barrage, I don't believe. I think Justice reigning from above is somewhere between three and four seconds. I'm not sure. anyway but how long does a pharaoh stay alive long enough to see that's why i don't think in that case it's not if you had to defense matrix that entire barrage something's wrong with your team yeah at my tier there's plenty that's wrong with the team there have been so many games i've played where the other side has had a pharaoh and we don't have a hit scan which is the counter someone that can nobody plays a hit scan okay it it's it's shocking but you'll go around and They're like, nope, nope. But you'll have a Widow and a Hanzo. I'll have a Widow and a Hanzo and, oh, look, Tracer.
    70:16
    And you know what? I wouldn't mind having one of those characters, but it's, where's the soldier? Or at least the McCree. I don't have any faith in McCree, but in theory, if they knew how to play him, he would be viable. But no, they just, or there's even times where I'll be like, I'll take a Bastion at this point. Just give me something. please something well Tony I think we got to the end of the show I think so I guess it's time to plug some stuff it is we had fun discussions this time no weighty news of depression just fun happy talks about Cylons and System 11s and licenses and pharmacies so I guess we should start plugging our stuff you can follow us on Facebook it's facebook.com slash Eclectic Gamers Podcast. We also check emails. Email address is EclecticGamersPodcast at gmail.com. And we're available on Twitter and Instagram at Eclectic underscore Gamers, supposedly. When I actually get on there and check them, I'm really bad about Twitter. I'm better about Instagram.
    71:25
    Well, I do make sure we tweet out the episodes. We tend to at least have one tweet every two weeks. I'm not a huge... I don't know. I've never really been able to get big into Twitter. I was doing better with Instagram for a while. I need to get back to it. Yeah. Reaching out to us, Facebook's probably the best because we both easily can check it. So, in terms of sending us messages. If you want to see photos, then Instagram's the best because that's what it's for. That's it. We'll be back in a couple weeks, I guess. So, until next time, I'll just say, I'm Dennis. And I'm Tony. So long, everyone. Good night. It's not night time. I don't care.