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The Pinball Show Ep 57: Get Off My Ocean!

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 27m·analyzed·Apr 26, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Haggis Pinball announces licensed Fathom remake with new ruleset and RGB displays.

Summary

The Pinball Show announces Haggis Pinball's second title: a licensed remake of the classic 1981 Bally game Fathom, produced in partnership with Planetary Pinball Supply. Haggis is expanding to a new facility four times its current size to produce 50 games per month (12–12.5 per week), with plans to sell all Fathom units within six months. The Mermaid Edition (limited to 250 units) features RGB seven-segment displays, two LCD screens in the apron, a new 2.0 rule set by Martin Robbins, and premium cosmetics; the Classic Edition reproduces the original game at lower cost. Pricing: Mermaid Edition $11,500 AUD (~$8,900 USD), Classic Edition $9,500 AUD (~$7,300 USD).

Key Claims

  • Haggis Pinball has shipped their first game (Kelts) to a customer

    high confidence · Dr. John confirmed on-air that he received game number one; hosts discussed streaming it on Twitch

  • Haggis is expanding to a facility four times its current size with significantly increased staff

    high confidence · Damien from Haggis stated this directly in the interview segment

  • Haggis plans to manufacture 50 Fathom games per month (~12.5 per week) and sell all units within six months

    high confidence · Damien quoted production target and timeline explicitly

  • The Fathom Mermaid Edition is limited to 250 units with a three-week sales window

    high confidence · Damien outlined specific production cap and availability period

  • Martin Robbins (TPN/Final Round Pinball) designed the Fathom 2.0 rule set

    high confidence · Damien confirmed Robbins' involvement; hosts celebrated this news

  • The Fathom Mermaid Edition features full RGB seven-segment displays, described as a first for commercial pinball

    high confidence · Damien stated this is 'a first for a commercial pinball machine'

  • Fathom uses Haggis' hybrid acrylic-and-wood playfield technology

    high confidence · Damien described the composite hybrid technology with acrylic top and wood base

  • Secondary market Fathom machines sell for $5,000+ in decent condition

    medium confidence · Zach mentioned 'a quick look for our research here' showed this price range

Notable Quotes

  • “We're going from the space that I have now into a new factory that's about four times the size. And as part of that, I'll be bringing on a lot larger complement of staff to push through the manufacturing of these games.”

    Damien (Haggis Pinball owner) @ ~17:30 — Major expansion announcement indicating serious growth ambitions and production capacity increase

  • “We are doing two versions of the game. So we have a Mermaid Edition, which is basically our LE version... full RGB seven-segment displays in the back box, which I believe is a first for a commercial pinball machine.”

    Damien @ ~21:00 — Technical innovation claim; establishes competitive differentiation for LE tier

  • “The deposits that people put down literally go to the manufacturing of their games... We do ask for a $1,500 Australian non-refundable deposit.”

    Damien @ ~28:15 — Business model transparency; addresses customer financial safety concerns

  • “Get out of my lake or ocean or whatever she said.”

    Zach Minney @ ~50:45 — References new callout voice for 2.0 rule set; community initially mistook it for Jaws promo

  • “They've got this indestructible play field. You get all new parts... and you also get the option of an LE package or a mermaid package... where you get a brand new rule set... This is something that CGC has not latched onto that people have been screaming from the rooftops.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~41:30 — Frames Haggis' strategy as addressing unmet market demand for modernized classic game rule sets

  • “I think this is the right choice... on the secondary market, this is still heralded a bit higher than even Centaur.”

    Dennis @ ~38:45 — Validates remake selection; notes Fathom's market status relative to other Class of 81 titles

Entities

Haggis PinballcompanyDamienpersonMartin RobbinspersonFathom (Haggis remake)gamePlanetary Pinball SupplycompanyDr. JohnpersonZach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonKelts (Haggis)gameThe Pinball Show

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis expanding facility 4x current size and increasing staff significantly to reach 50 units/month (12–12.5/week) production rate

    high · Damien announced facility expansion and hiring plans to match Spooky production volume; hosts validated this as serious growth

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong positive reception to Fathom remake choice; hosts consider it correct decision among Class of 81 titles

    high · Dennis: 'I think that this is the right choice... I think this sells, and we'll talk about the details, but I think this sells very well'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Haggis positioning as 'Australian Spooky' while adopting CGC-like business model (licensed classics → original IP path)

    medium · Hosts noted Damien's comparison to Spooky; Dennis advocated for CGC-model remake strategy before original IP

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Classic game remakes prioritize modernized rule sets and component upgrades (RGB, LCD) over radical redesigns to preserve original identity

    medium · Haggis/Martin Robbins approach; Dennis noted importance of depth in 2.0 code while maintaining Fathom essence

  • ?

    leak_detection: Promo teaser for Fathom misidentified by community as Jaws-related due to 'get out of my ocean' voice callout

    high · Hosts acknowledged community initially thought teaser was Jaws remake; clarified callout was new 2.0 soundtrack voice

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.263

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Ginormous news on The Pinball Show episode 57 this week. Dennis and I help announce Haggis Pinball's second title, as well as discussing Haggis' plans for the future, timing in the pinball industry, Leroy Jenkins, Mermans, Stern Mando Rumors, The Distributor Process for Limited Edition Pinball Machines, SBTMAIQ Review, Spooky Pinball's next title, David Thiel's next four titles, The Resurrection of Saps, Misinformed Podcasters, Pinball Market Trends, Fungible Tokens, and Poking Gen Z. All of this and more today on The Pinball Show. Get out of my ocean.
1:04
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for The Pinball Show.
1:24
It's pinball with personality. Thank you, listener, for being a friend. This is episode 57 of the pinball show. Your favorite pinball podcast with Dennis Creasel and Zach Minney. Dennis, it's great to hear from you. I feel like you're a long-lost brother. I haven't talked to you in quite some time. Leroy Jankins have you learned about Leroy Jankins Zach? I knew it would be a thing it's great to be back it's so sad I'm glad that the entire community called you out for your ignorance one of the most famous memes in the entire world and your response I'm funnier the entire world the entire world of Warcraft there have been shows that have made fun of Leroy Jenkins. It's beyond gaming, beyond MMOs, beyond computers themselves. It's beyond comedy. Leroy Jenkins. Is that a funny joke?
organization
Stern Pinballcompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Spooky Pinballcompany
CGC (Classic Game Company)company
Greg Boneperson

market_signal: Shift toward licensed classic remakes as lower-risk, high-demand entry strategy for emerging manufacturers

medium · Hosts noted Haggis' Fathom move aligns with CGC strategy of remaking beloved titles before pursuing original IP

  • ?

    community_signal: Martin Robbins (TPN/Final Round Pinball) elevated as rule set designer for commercial machine production

    high · Damien confirmed Robbins designed Fathom 2.0; hosts celebrated as major career moment and stock rise

  • $

    market_signal: Haggis Fathom LE pricing ($11,500 AUD/$8,900 USD) undercuts typical new-game pricing while targeting built-in collector demand

    high · Secondary market Fathom machines sell $5,000+; Haggis positioned remake as accessible premium option

  • ?

    announcement: Haggis Pinball officially announces licensed Fathom remake as second title with exclusive partnership with Planetary Pinball Supply

    high · Damien provided on-air exclusive announcement with specific pricing, production timelines, and feature set

  • ?

    product_strategy: Haggis hybrid acrylic-wood playfield technology claimed to be durable and avoid contemporary manufacturing issues

    medium · Damien: playfield 'has held up just unbelievably well'; exact replica with manufacturing method modifications for mech mounting

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis Fathom limited to 250 LE units sold in 3-week window only; Classic Edition unlimited ongoing; $1,500 AUD non-refundable deposit model

    high · Damien detailed exact allocation window and deposit structure; designed to balance FOMO with accessibility

  • ?

    technology_signal: Full RGB seven-segment displays in back box claimed as first in commercial pinball production

    high · Damien: 'full RGB seven-segment displays in the back box, which I believe is a first for a commercial pinball machine'

    • 2:33
    We all know a Leroy. We all know someone who, when you're just trying to give the basic instructions, they're like, nope, I'm going to build the crib alone. And then, the baby's trapped in the crib forever, and you have to get a new baby. I can relate to Leroy. That's Leroy Jenkins. Am I kind of a Leroy Jenkins-ish? I don't know. When you inflated your above-ground pool, did you read the instructions? It's not inflated. I had to build it. It's metal. It's made of metal. In my headcanon, you inflated it. It's basically Olympic-sized, but you had to huff and puff the whole thing full of air. The saddest thing, listeners. Full of hot air, which is why you alone had to do it. When people come over to pick up – if I have a game at my place and they come to pick it up, I've had two people now, one of them requested permission to take a picture by my shitty-ass above-ground pool. And I shook my head. I'm like, oh, my God, only if I can be in it. And the other person did it after deal was over, and I walked back into my home. I seen them sneak by my pool like I did not see you. I seen you. And they took a picture by it, and I was like, you son of a bitch. You did throw your pool in everyone's face. because it was impossible to put up. That's all. Leroy Jenkins is fine, but did you see and hear that Bobcat viral video, Dennis? I did. The whole time I was thinking to myself, WWDDD, what would Din Din do? What would you do with a Bobcat that was attacking? Yeah, I don't know. In the heat of the moment, you never know how you'll respond. Kicking often seems like a good idea. Kicking rather than stomping? Yeah, like punt it. Because, you know, it creates some distance. That cat was pissed off, man. That was a mad cat. The bobcat! Tag my wife!
    4:23
    Would you grab the bobcat out of your wife's hand? Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes people have to kind of solve their own problems. It was rabid. I don't want no rabies. That shot protocol, no one likes it. It's not as bad as it used to be, by the way. It's not like 10 shots anymore or whatever people think it is. Leroy Jenkins is fine. He is no back it up Terry. No bobcat. It wasn't even funny. People. That's because you don't understand the context. I think I do, and it's just not very funny. You don't. Not every meme, not every famous thing has to be like laugh out loud. Your sides are stitches and pain. What makes it stick? What's relevant about it? It's the association of knowing people that are like that in your life and how they just ruin everything because they just have to go do their own thing. See, I see them as heroes. I've watched some of those World of Warcraft stuff, And I've got to say, there's always one leader that's the biggest D-bag ever. And all these little lemmings that follow him. Oh, let's go. Here's free money. I have been dabbling because it's somewhat entertaining. Here's the money. Go, king. So Leroy Jenkins is a fucking hero coming in saying, F off, D-bag. I'm going in. That's the hero I'd follow. Yeah, he wiped the group.
    5:37
    They all perished and died. Yep. That's what they get for playing World of Warcraft. You see, you just had to turn it against the game itself. Very destructive. And for someone who sells games for a living, that's really not the attitude you should be promoting. I'm about to promote the hell out of something. We've got a crap load of news this week. We need to jump right into it. Let's hear from the correspondent, Zach. Man, there's a shining star in this segment. He's my favorite. I already said it a while ago. Yeah, you did. He's my new favorite. Man, you really built stock on this like a fucking Bitcoin over here. He's my dogecoin. Yeah, there it is. Is that how we say it? Dogecoin? The one with the dog. Arf. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    6:23
    Hi and welcome to this week's SHIT update with Dr. John on the Pinball Show. Some extremely exciting news out of Australia and specifically out of Haggis Pinball this week. with the first, in inverted commas, new game, close inverted commas, for 2021 being announced by Haggis Pinball. Let's have a chat to Damien and see what he has to say.
    6:49
    So this week on the Pinball Show, we have a semi-exclusive announcement in that it is a live announcement from the owner, establisher, instigator, and all-around nice guy Damien, all about some happenings in Haggis. So I think the number one happening is a happy customer up here in Queensland because why is that, Damien? Because we shipped game number one. Congratulations. Woo-hoo! Yes. There's going to be a whole lot of Haggis streaming going on. I can rest from the Avengers Infinity Quest pin class streaming and see if I make it in the finals, but we're definitely going to be streaming Haggis over and over. So I'm looking forward to the Celts. And then how about we give another big announcement on what's on the horizon for Haggis Pinball. Well, we will have launched, by the time you listen to this, we have launched our second title, which is actually a remake of the classic Bally Fathom. Nice. And you've just stolen the theme, have you, or are you doing it under licence? No, we are doing it under licence. So we're doing it in conjunction with Planetary Pinball Supply, who are helping support the sales of the product there in the States. They are the United States parts distributor, so they will carry a full complement of parts for the game and they will also act as our sort of distribution centre for the disbursement of games out of the States. Nice. So how does a one-man band remake Fathom? Or have you got even more news? Well, yeah, I mean, look, it hasn't been a one-man band for a while, really, to be honest. There's been a lot of people sort of working behind the scenes and beavering away.
    8:27
    And part of, I guess, our strategy, which all went to water like it did for everybody in 2020 with COVID. This sort of strategy 2.0 has now seen us as well. We're expanding into a new facility. So we're going from the space that I have now into a new factory that's about four times the size. And as part of that, I'll be bringing on a lot larger complement of staff to push through the manufacturing of these games and get us up and running as a lot more significant entity. Excellent. So about how many games per week do you think you'll be churning out when that's up and running? So we're working on the basis of 50 games a month. So obviously, depending on the number of days of the month, that's around about 12, 12 and a half a week. The intent is we want to be able to sell all of the Fathom games and get them all out inside of a six month period. Any limit on numbers? We are doing two versions of the game. So we have a Mermaid Edition, which is basically our LE version. So it's got a lot of fantastic fancy things, all mirrored chrome, everything. It's got full RGB seven-segment displays in the back box, which I believe is a first for a commercial pinball machine. We also have two LCD screens that are in the apron. So obviously for a game like Fathom that doesn't have any sort of D&D or LCD display in the back box, we needed a way in order to show and to take advantage of a brand new 2.0 rule set that's been coded and developed as well so marty robbins has helped out and written a 2.0 rule set for fathom and we've created a whole new soundtrack soundscape for call outs and sound effects that all go along with that that all makes it into the mermaid edition we also have a new method by which we create our side cabinet art so we're using this highly luminescent reflective material so effectively when you walk into your darkened pinball room if you for example return on your light or had the torch on on your camera your fathom pinball machine from haggis will stand out like it's uh like it's internally lit with floodlights it's actually quite quite amazing to to see it's going to be one of those hard things to show me via photos unfortunately it's one of those things you sort of really need to see in person but that's amazing and then we also have the classic edition and the classic edition is all brushed stainless steel finish it doesn't have the lcd screens in the apron it doesn't have the 2.0 code it's um it just has single color seven segment displays and uh you know it's a bit more faithful i guess to that original look and feel of what fathom was excellent prices you've Any prices? Yeah, so our price for the Mermaid Edition is $11,500 Australian, which works out to about $8,900 US at the current exchange rate. The Classic Edition is $9,500 Australian, which works out to about $7,300 or thereabouts in US dollars. And then any taxes and shipping where applicable. Taxes really only applicable in Australia, unfortunately, being an Australian manufacturer. but of course we save on shipping. However, for the Mermaid editions, we will be covering shipping en masse to the States so that will end up at Planet Shipping Ball Supply and then shipping costs will only need to be borne by the customer from Nevada to wherever they are stateside. Excellent. Now there's been a number of different purchase models set up by all different companies. which hybrid purchase model have you got for the le's yeah look and this is one of these things it's always very difficult i think i don't know anyone has the the magic answer so if you're a clan haggis member and you would have got early access to the release of this game and and knowing exactly what it was if you got past all of our cryptic social media posts that we were putting out um you get two days early access to purchase the game we make it available for sale to the general public on Wednesday the 28th of April in the States and it will be available for sale for the mermaid edition for only three weeks which basically takes us that week ending the 21st of May we are also limiting the numbers to 250 games only so if we sell 250 mermaid editions before the three weeks is up that is it and if we don't sell 250 whatever we've sold by the end of week three will be it as well. There will be no limitation on the classic edition. So if you want to get a classic edition in that period or in the future after that period, they will be available for sale. Okay. And the dirty, dirty subject of money. Yes. People have lost money. How are we ensuring that that's all going to be above board and safe? Yeah, well, look, I mean, it's the same sort of situation, I guess, I was with Couch. The reality is we're still a small sort of start-up company and I've taken a great deal of pride in people that have sort of likened us to being the Australian spooky. Whereas, you know, the deposits that people put down literally go to the manufacturing of their games. So we do ask for a $1,500 Australian non-refundable deposit and that is basically your commitment to us that you are going to buy the game and to the same extent that's our commitment to you that we will take that and we will manufacture and produce your game and now ship it in a lot timelier manner because we're scaling up. Excellent. All right, so $1,500 down for the LE, and you have three weeks all up with priority given to clan members first up. So the play field is exact replica of the original? Correct. So we're still using our new composite hybrid technology, which is our acrylic top and our wood base. That has held up just unbelievably well, and you will get first-hand experience in that, obviously, once your game turns up, which actually you should have it by now as the time this recording drops. So you'll see what that's like. so we've definitely done that um as a consequence obviously we've had to alter some of the ways that we mount and some of the ways we've manufactured some of the mechs that go into the play field but for all intents and purposes yes it's the exact same play field the exact same artwork um and it will effectively look the same as another fathom if you stood them up against each other all right i won't have any spoilers today about the 2.0 code that martin's developed but we might talk about that later after some gameplay reveal etc but i think that's enough of a teaser for everybody to get on board join clan haggis if you like sit back and wait if you want a standard edition jump in fomo if you want the le i think things are going from strength to strength in melbourne the pinball manufacturing capital of australia used to be newcastle now it's melbourne yeah we're taking it over great all right thanks for all that info damien and I look forward to streaming Kelts sometime this week. Thanks, Dr. John. See you, mate.
    15:38
    Hello and welcome to the Pinball Show's Stern News Update. I'm Craig Bobby. Well, the Stern rumor mill has now reached a fevered pitch again this week as you can't throw a stick on pin side without someone having an opinion on what the next Stern title could be. We've talked about them on and off for some time on TPS as well. Could it be the Kaneda-rumored Mandalorian, James Bond, or Back to the Future, or possibly even a new Batman title? And certainly Keith Elwin's Godzilla, which almost seems like a done deal now as that rumor has really taken root out there. But in the end, with our sources all telling us conflicting pieces of information, Stern continues to do a good job at creating noise and keeping information close to their vest as they wait for their big reveal. And speaking of excitement with more Guns N' Roses machines leaving the JJP factory every week, and Jersey Jack customers raving about scorebit connectivity with their online adoption and gameplay, all eyes are now on Stern Pinball to go online next as the Stern Army anxiously awaits its chance to have their games automatically connected to the world of online leaderboards, statistics, and gameplay. When will that happen, you ask? Well, as I said so often here on the Pinball Show, we shall have to wait and see. Well, that's all for this week. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    17:08
    Hey, this is Kaz with a quick American Pinball update. I reached out to a couple members of the team at American Pinball, and while there's no major news to report on, the team is hard at work on the new games. And also check out the American Pinball Facebook page. just a pretty cool story about all three games at title town brewing company in green bay wisconsin i hope everybody has a great week and has fun playing pinball for the pinball show this is brian cosner oh it's always great zach hearing from the correspondents especially dr john my favorite of the correspondents and once again proving why he is the correspondent supreme He's the Doctor Strange of the Pinball Show That's good There's no argument here because he really showed up this week Wowzers, Dr. John, we love you Or yeah, Matt Morrison Hey Craig, you've got the biggest company in the entire world of pinball Where's your news? Poor Morrison's like, look I just interviewed a person from Stern for the Pinball Show interviews coming up Oh see, that was a little plug Dennis, Haggis Pinball has shipped Kelts Game 1. They shipped it last week. Congratulations to Dr. John on getting that, unboxing it. It was pretty. It was a pretty game. And he'll be streaming it prolifically. So go over to the Dr. John Pinball stream and check that out on the Twitch. On the Twitch. I think it's Emily and Dr. John is the Twitch handle. They've got a new factory over at Haggis, Damien said. four times the size and a need to increase staff for their well i would hope because otherwise it would just be a big empty warehouse with like one one dude forklift races i always win because i'm racing myself i still picture damien and one of those little carts like austin power stuck in between the walls flowing beautiful hair so new factories coming because they're producing as you heard dr john talk about game number two which is a remake in a deal an officially licensed ballet game back in 81 fathom that's right one of the class of 81s and so i must give a hearty ho ho to everyone who actually thought that teaser trailer was jaws oh i know the female voiceover clearly is the hint towards the mermaids of fathom that's right hey people are blinded by their desperation so do you think this is a a good choice i do but i want to hear your thoughts first it's not the best choice if we're talking any remake at all possible even within the bally williams stable but if we're talking if we're talking like seven digit numeric only display games it would be toward yeah it would be toward but i'm also saying pre-alpha numeric so like pre-system 11 then i think that this one would be towards the top of the list it does go for I mean, I've never been in the market for it. I did a quick look for our research here, and over the past year or so, decent ones were going for over $5,000. So it is an in-demand game, at least for artistic reasons. Yeah, I piggyback off that and say that for the segment displayed pre-System 11 kind of stuff, if we're talking Bally Williams, I think it is the correct choice. I think it is the best one. I mean, I would have said this or Centaur. I would have gone with another Bally. I mean, Class of 81 is worshipped for a reason. I mean, they were pretty experimental with the game designs. And not all of them are winners on art, but Centaur and Fathom are generally at the top of most people's lists on the artistic side. And then gameplay side, you start to get more of a mix in with 8-Ball Deluxe and possibly, if you're a glutton for punishment, Flash Gordon. Barakora kind of there, too, a little bit. Yeah, but Barakora is over on the Williams side, so I sort of separate that. It is 81. but I was just, you know, class of 81 is very specific to Bally. Yeah, I think this is the right choice. I think that on the secondary market, this is still heralded a bit higher than even Centaur. This came out of left field. I was not expecting anyone to remake a Fathom any time soon or ever at all. I think it's really smart. I think it's really smart for a couple of reasons. Number one, people still collect, highly collect this title. People still say it is the most beautiful pinball machine ever made. It is on the top of many lists over the years. And they've got this indestructible play field. You get all new parts. You get a new play field that, from what we're hearing, is not going to be prone to a lot of these contemporary or modern issues in play field manufacturing. And you also get the option of an LE package or a mermaid package is how they describing it where you get a brand new rule set This is something that CGC has not latched onto that people have been screaming from the rooftops If you're going to be remaking these older games, especially like DMD games, please update the rules so that they can compete with more modern counterparts. They're doing that here for an 81 game. I think this sells, and we'll talk about the details, but I think this sells very well. They plan on cranking out all the fathoms in six months. That's a lofty goal. Yeah, I think, I mean, with the expectation that they're going to go to a four times the staff size, they're estimating a 12-game-a-week production level, which is sort of around what Spooky's at. So they've really ramped. It's sort of interesting to see little old Haggis ramp up all of a sudden to Spooky levels. But Spooky perhaps has been a bit conservative on their growth factor. Overall, I think that this is a smart play. I think that you have a sense of a built-in audience based off of the pricing that the old fathoms go for. So given that, being able to do sort of a CGC, you know, I know they're comparing themselves to Spooky, but I'm going to compare them to CGC and say, you know, do a CGC thing. Sell games that you know already have a built-in fan base. And then as you build up your company, then they could start to look at doing original licensed themes. I still think that doing a KELTS is not the right course of action. Doing something with real licenses, but going into being original at some stage, after you've built up some largesse based off of these remakes, I think this would have been a better launching pad than KELTS was. I agree with everything you're saying. Maybe getting some of the KELTS out, you're working out the bugs of being a new manufacturer. So that may, in the long run, be a good idea that they did that. But coming out of the gate, number two with Fathom, a beloved game, I don't see how it can go wrong. Let's talk about some more of the details. Now, this announcement, this new product, is in conjunction with Planetary Pinball Supply, who we know, listener, is the individual. Rick is who owns that. He has all of the assets and licenses for the Bally Williams titles. He's the one that offers them to CGC and has a working agreement with them to make the remakes. I just didn't know if it was an exclusive agreement or not, but now we know it's not because here comes Haggis with an agreement with PPS as well. They're going to carry a full list of the parts, and they're going to be a dealer in the States here, that is Planetary Pinball, for these Fathom machines. which again I think is a smart idea to get a local dealer to worry about shipping mass over to the states instead of onesie twosies and then disperse them there. And then having the parts available is incredibly intelligent as well. Now I don't know if this dealer agreement with Planetary is exclusive. Initially I thought it was but to be continued there dot dot dot. And we know that there are two versions of this game, as you guys heard. A classic edition and one that's more of a limited edition, limited to 250 units, that they are calling a mermaid edition. Do you like that name, mermaid edition? Yeah, it's fine. But they weren't... That's this confused thing. I mean... They weren't mermaids, were they? Yeah, I thought they were... I thought they were sirens.
    25:25
    And the sirens sing and crush your ship upon the rocks. That's what I thought they were. they're dragging people underwater in the art I would have called them isn't that where mermaids live? it's under the water? isn't that what that crab sang us about?
    25:42
    don't you sing it nope, you just have to think it I would have called it the super siren edition I'm not sure I don't know if they're sirens I think mermaid's fine email thepinballnetwork at gmail.com No, don't bother. We don't really care. Let us know if they're sirens or are they mermaids. Killer mermaids.
    26:03
    I don't know. We have to add killer to them like whale. Killer whale. Seductive. Manipulative. Killer. Mermaids. We know that the classic edition is just that. It is a reproduction of the classic Fathom game.
    26:20
    I'm sorry. I'm just thinking. I want them to do one LE for me where it's Zoolander as the merman. and i and i want the special rules for him when i started up to say i want the pop bumpers to go we're not we're not here to make uh haggis's game better so let's continue and uh if you do have that agreement, make it two, because I'll take one as well. The Mermaid Edition comes with mirrored chrome, full RGB, oh, it's going to be so pretty, and a first in pinball production. The seven segment displays being full RGB as well. Oh, colorful numbers. Yes, I can see the waving patterns now.
    27:16
    There's going to be two LCD screens in the apron. What? Maybe where the rule card and the price card would go. That is pretty brilliant. That's just a guess. Maybe not. After hearing about this this morning, Greg Bone and I were discussing from straight down the middle, and he had something that was just such a good idea. He's like, I hope that they're doing that. On those LCD displays, he said it would be great if they had just almost like a cam that you're looking into the underwater, and every once in a while, one of those sirens, not mermaids, would come up and kind of look into the glass. It's like an aquarium, but you're looking down. Would kind of come up, tap on the fifth wall there, or give a, go back down.
    28:07
    Two LCD screens in the, that's a good idea, Dennis. There's silence over there. I still don't understand why you've turned these into sirens when they've got tails. Yes! Sirens are mermaids who are able to lure sailors towards rocky shores via their hypnotic singing, causing the sailors to crash into the rocky coast of their island, meeting a watery demise. I don't think we see any ships in the art. Yeah, we do. It's up above. It's a boat. Is it crashed? You're telling me it's different now? No, that boat's fine in the black glass. That boat is fine and not on any rocks. It's an intact boat. On mermaidstale.co.uk, it says, so basically a siren is like an evil mermaid who lures men to their death. But it actually shouldn't be associated with a mermaid at all. Mermaids are portrayed in different ways, but they're often a sign of danger. Can we have another special edition where it's Splash and it's Daryl Hannah? Oh, I want Tom Hanks. The big news here for me, listener, and Dennis Creasel, is that the mermaid edition has a new 2.0 rule set. Whoa. Fancy. Not only that, but I am so proud to report that Martin Robbins of TPN and Final Round Pinball Podcast is the one that was writing the rule set for that 2.0 code. Wow. Congratulations, Martin Robbins. Man, that guy, I'm telling you, Martin Robbins is where it's at. He's not just the voice of the Australian jailer anymore. And hearing that blast interview they did with Charlie. Stocks rising on Marty. Stock is rising. And if he does his rule set right, my pants will be rising as well. Comes with a whole new soundtrack, soundscape, call-outs that go with the 2.0 system. Maybe we've heard one of those in the promo that I really loved. I really loved her voice saying, get out of my lake or ocean or whatever she said. Yes, and people thought it was the Jaws shark talking for obvious reason. It's a chick. It's a chick shark. Well, in Jaws 4, I think it was a mama shark in that. Or no, Jaws 3. Jaws 3 was a mama shark because it was a baby shark that they get and they capture. And then the mama shark wants revenge. Can I sing that song? Nope.
    30:28
    The 2.0 system is what differentiates this. Would you agree or disagree? I think so. Other than I guess you could point out the RGB and all that is also all in the Mermaid Edition. So all this stuff, the Chrome, the full RGB, the Classic Edition is going to look like a game from 81. Yes. But this one feels like the meat and potatoes. So, I mean, I don't know. I change on the rules for Fathom. I'm sure there are some pieces. I just don't. I've played it a number of times, but I don't know the rules well enough to say this is what I would fix. do you think that this 2.0 code will be additional flair additional tasks or do you think it's going to be a different game no i don't i don't i'm guessing no it's limited to 250 and i just have to i still have to hang my head on how much work do you want to put in on a game you change it too much and it's no longer fathom so that's a good point and we're still doing like seven segment display and stuff so i just don't expect it to go to like a bright of pinbot 2.0 where i mean it's got the lcds in the apron though so so maybe maybe there's a little bit there that they're going to do um it's too hard to say it's too hard where's the siren bar i think it really comes down to marty and what he wants to do i think they're probably going to give him a lot of leeway what i like about martin robbins is that he has said over and over on his different platforms that He's not always into the deepest strategic rule set, multiplier stack. He kind of likes the journey as well. I don't think he's going to layer a whole lot of complicated strategic rules on top of what Fathom already had. I think they might go for depth here, and that's what gets me really excited. Now, listener, what you should know is that we are completely and utterly humbled by the opportunity for Haggis Pinball to allow us to help exclusively announce and describe this new title. Thank you, thank you, thank you. With that, we do not currently, because this is pre-recorded, we do not currently have all of the information. We don't know the depth of this code. That may be outlined in an official release that is simultaneous with this, but we just simply don't know, nor do we know exactly what this looks like. So we'll have to wait and see whether this is a full rule set, whether this is just partial enhancements, what this is. I'm excited regardless. The Mermaid Ellie also gets what they're calling a highly luminous reflective cabinet art material. and Damien, you guys heard, said that it looks as if it's internally lit by floodlights. I don't know what this is. When the light hits it. I'm envisioning either something kind of translucent and mirrored behind or think like foil trading card style. Yeah, like a... Because he pointed out that you had to hit it with an external light source to get that effect. Okay. Yeah, so this is GNR CE Iron Maiden LE and Iron Man Volt.
    33:41
    That's what I'm picturing. Those all had this reflective foil type of thing going on. Some shiny, basically. Which I love. I love that. This thing is going to be a fucking stud. It's going to look great. I want one of these things.
    33:55
    Both editions have the patented and beloved hybrid acrylic top and wooden bottom play field. I sure hope they don't play any different. Says Dimple Free. Everybody wants to know the price. You guys heard it. But as a reminder, the Classic Edition for the U.S. market is going to clock in at $7,300. And the Mermaid LE Edition is going to clock in U.S. at $8,900. They are going to be shipping these to the states. Shipping costs are going to be covered in bulk to get them to the states. But then you guys as buyers will have to pay for shipping from Planetary Pinball Supply, which is in Nevada, I believe. So basically expect typical shipping prices versus buying from an American manufacturer. Yep, that's right. And I can tell you as a dealer, those are going to range anywhere from about probably $300 to $500. How in the hell do people get these? Well, Klingon Haggis members will get a two-day early access to the release for purchase. Oh, they have a Fang Club. Yep. This is their Klingon Haggis member. Remember they pitched that six months, a year ago? But I do like that they do the two-day early access instead of the two-week. Yes. That makes a lot of sense. Kind of a hybrid version here. I think it's a good idea. Anybody know who's got two thumbs and is a Clay and Haggis member? Nope. This guy. Nope. Dr. John? Probably, yeah. The general public will be able to purchase these games on April the 28th of Wednesday, two days after today. In two days. Mermaid Edition is only available to purchase for three weeks, ending May 21st. I bet they're sold out well before then. I bet they're sold out by the end of today. Could be. This is the first announcement for the year. people are hungry for a pinball machine you're gonna it's a fair point it's just it's an older title that's the only reason why i hedge sure sure i just i just don't know but but the thing is it's not that it's not a huge amount of money to go up from the classic to the mermaid so that's where i also think that that will ultimately allow them to sell the 250 unit i think a lot of people will be like well i'm already paying over seven thousand dollars for this let's add in another 1600 and get the new rule set and have the rgb features and all of that yeah so that's exciting what do you think about the prices it's not as ideal as what chicago gaming had i thought felt with their first three remakes where basically they were launching cheaper than what those things like medieval madness were going for on the used market this is more than what fathom goes for on the used market but it's not a huge amount more it's about a thousand to fifteen roughly, I guess. I don't know. I've seen fathoms in the last year go for a little over five to a little over six, not counting those people that are listing them for 10K. I think my argument would be that the price is damn near perfect because if we were building a brand new restored fathom and selling it, I think it could fetch $75,000 to $8,000 in today's market. Maybe. But again, it's how many people want fathom versus a, hey, for this same price, what new games with ramps can I get?
    37:00
    That's the competition. Avengers is the competition. Hot Wheels is the competition. Stranger Things. But only with the UV kit, otherwise people don't want it. Damien, you said nothing about a topper. Are you going to put a topper on here, and if not, can I design it? No, why waste the money? Cut your hand on a flat piece of 2D plastic.
    37:21
    Blood everywhere. Then the mermaids will get you. They will circle. Maybe Flippin' Out Pinball can be the exclusive designer and dealer of the Fathom Topper. No. Do the Fathom Topper for free and then win a Twippy. No. Just no. Mermaid Edition is limited to 250 units or whatever amount is sold by May 21st. So there's the hybrid deep root model. Get what you get, and then the kitchen's closed. Which, for limited, I get it. That makes sense. Go eat ketchup packets. Now, here's something I'm a little confused about, is that Damien mentioned that there's no limit on the Classic Edition, but also that they want to be done with building all the Fathoms in six months. Yeah, that is a contradiction. So is there an actual limit on the run, or is the six months when they want to be done building the LEs? I don't know, because whenever I heard that six months, I thought, well, that is a stretch. I think that's the LEs, because he's thinking he's going to average 50 games a month. It would be six months. That's $300, yeah, unless he only thinks he's going to sell 50 classics.
    38:23
    Well, and honestly, I think kind of like Bloodsuckers Edition, Rick and Morty, I do think almost all of the sale, I think that the true LE will be the classic. I think they're going to sell more of the mermaids than they will that. I agree. No limitations on that classic edition. I don't know how I feel about that. Now, there is a deposit, $1,500 Aussie, or what converts to about $1,161 U.S., non-refundable deposit to get one of these. So get them now and bye, bye, bye. Here's another interesting point. I don't know if anybody's touching on this, but you heard it here that Haggis Pinball has an agreement with Planetary Pinball Supply for a five-game deal.
    39:06
    And this five-game deal, listener, is for the same era. So they're not dabbling into the DMD stuff. Same era. They're not encroaching on the CGC territory, which makes sense for what Planetary would be interested in, I think. And you and I have discussed some of those. I would have loved to have seen them dabble in some of that DMD stuff. I know you would have, but given what deals Planetary already has with Chicago, I'm not surprised. And in terms of economies of scale, there's a value for Haggis to say, okay, well, we're just going to be buying seven-digit RGB displays and sticking them in all the units. They just keep them one color on the classics, and then there's a whole purpose on the parts there to keep the costs controlled. So that's where I think there's value with that. Oftentimes, hobbyists like myself forget about that, so that is a really good point. Do you think that five can be – again, I'm going back to this rule set because I think the make or break of this entire deal and this entire idea will be contingent upon that 2.0 rule set. because when we said Fathom is the one to pick, it is, but that well does not go very deep. I think that well goes that. I don't think you sell 250 Centaurs without a 2.0 rule set. Fathom was a good one to start with because it's probably, artistically, it's one of the most beloved. But Centaur on IPDB rates higher than Fathom does by the users. Okay. I think Centaur is one of the other five. So we know Fathom is one of the five. I think Centaur is one of the other five as well.
    40:47
    The only reason I'm interested in the other ones is because then we're like, well, with the 2.0 code set, we're just looking at theme, art, and layout. And I can pick a lot of those that I would pay a high dollar for if they were more contemporary rules. But without those 2.0, I don't want to spend $9,000 for non-2.0 any of these games. What are you going to pick? Well, we don't know that everything's going to get 2.0 code either. We don't, but I'm... I think that they will in terms of adding maybe call-outs and stuff. I don't know if they're going to revise all the... Some of these classic games have really popular rule sets, and if the goal is to sell like 250 or 300 of each of them, then you just need to... You can either go for, hey, we need to get the people that want the art, or you go for like, hey, there are people that want these things in tournaments and stuff, and while the competitive scene isn't the biggest buying base for games, When you're talking this small of a quantity, you could turn to them to try and get some of your sales. That's true. Let's see. So I think in addition to Fathom and Centaur, I think we go one year earlier in Bally and say Frontier. Oh, you're skipping the rest of the 80 ones. Well, not necessarily. Okay. Frontier. Off the top of my head, Frontier, deeply popular tournament game. They made less than 2,000 of them, so it's really hard to get. You don't think theme or art hurts that for 2022, 23, 24? it's uh it's a it's kenny rogers hunting some animals looks like keith ellen but yeah what's the hate there's nothing to hate it's a perfect choice everything to hate but okay so mean so mean um you know gosh okay so i'm up to three i'm surprised you went frontier there i know you're surprised uh i'll say barracora over on the williams side Another competitive darling game. Fantasy-wise. Weird artwork. Very Geiger-inspired. Still nice artwork.
    42:41
    And again, they made less than $2,500, so it wasn't a high-production game. And people who want the 1.0 rules will be like, well, it's a Roger Sharp design, and there just aren't very many available, especially when you consider Planetary is only Bally and Williams, so we can't go dipping into game plan or anything to try and finish that out. And so I need a final one. And probably no widebody, right? Yeah, no. Again, cost control. We're thinking things that are all basically identical to each other.
    43:09
    It's not going to be as good as it's done. Yeah, see, I just don't... 8-Ball Deluxe? I mean, my only problem with 8-Ball Deluxe is they made so many of them. I don't think this is a matter of how many they made. Between the LE, the Deluxe, and then there was like a third one, there's over 10,000 of those. Yeah, but if they made an Adams family right now, it would sell out. I know. I don't see that being an issue. I think 8-Ball Deluxe, the issue there is theming and artwork for the 21st century. Yeah, you've convinced me. 8-Ball Deluxe is, yeah, I could see that one, for sure. It is the best of the 81, play-wise. It's really fun. Yes I don think we see an embryon because of the wide pipe but that could be fun So yeah those are my guesses So I got three class of 81 Valleys Zipper flipper I don think they want to deal with it That goes up pretty high, money-wise. I know, but, again, mech-wise, you'd be buying this specialized equipment, two-inch flippers all for one game. I just don't see it. And how far up would they go before we get into, yeah, they're not going to make any of those mid-80s. I don't think we talk System 11 or anything. Alpha Numeric is out. I think it's all numeric. Okay. I'm just looking at the list here. I mean, you might go kind of rare, another 80 from Bally, but I just don't think it has enough fans. It would be Viking. They made 2,600 of that.
    44:30
    But that's a – do you think they do a split lay field for anything? Split level? Not really. I don't think so either. I would like to see a skateboard myself. I mean, I could – skateboard. I think it's retro enough that it holds up. And I love that layout. Man, what a fucking announcement. This is unbelievable.
    44:52
    Did you anticipate ever thinking we'd be talking about this right now? This came from nowhere. I didn't anticipate we'd be talking about anything.
    45:03
    Pinball's dead. I have never been so bored in this hobby as I have been this year. Even with my shenanigans?
    45:10
    Yes. Even with your shenanigans. There's just nothing happening, nothing, from a news perspective. It's just been so flat, shockingly flat, for all this hype that we hear from distributors about how pinball's at its highest peak ever. Don't put that on distributors. That's a true statement. I'm putting it on you. It's true. I'm smoothing it out with, yeah, there's all this demand for games, and no one's making them. It's a parts issue. It's so boring. You're right, though. There hasn't been anything announced. I'm excited for this. I think I'm in. I think I'm going Super Siren Edition here. I'm not because I do not do deposits. Oh, that's right. That's not the only reason you're not in. This doesn't interest you to the level of purchase. Doing deposits is the only reason you need to know that I'm not in. I'll spot you the deposit. You still won't be in. Nope.
    46:06
    Absolutely. This thing just screams to me and says, I'm going to be so beautiful. dip your toe into the waters.
    46:14
    Come to me, Zach. Stern Pinball's in the news. The rumor of The Mandalorian continues to circle around the water cooler. Do you think it's it? Do you think we're getting Disney's The Mandalorian as Stern Pinball's next release, Dennis? I think they'll do it. I don't know that it'll be the next release or not. But this is the way. I know. Again, it's an obvious choice. They've made a number of Disney titles. There's no reason as successful as The Mandalorian has been that it won't be done. But I don't know that it's necessarily the one we immediately see announced from them. Maybe they hold until the start of season three. I don't care about the buzz. It's so obvious. There's no, there's no. There's a lot of people on Pinsize shitting on this theme saying it's horrible. Well, I don't know what they're smoking. I get that, but you would have to be pretty dense to think it would be a bad marketing move. The audience for The Mandalorian is huge. Huge. I see a Baby Yoda meme every single day on Facebook, and I'm not in any Star Wars groups. I think the algorithm caught you because you love that little bastard with his chicky nuggies. And his choco milk. See, I'm raising a creasel clone in my pocket, and you can raise a Baby Yoda. It's fitting. The timeline is still tough for me. They would have had to really secure that thing and go to town on it by the height of its popularity. It doesn't take that long to develop a theme if they want to. We've seen others that they've rushed through the process. But you see, the part of my reason why I hedge, Zach, is it's like Godzilla vs. Kong is done very well at the box office, so why not push out your Godzilla title? Sure, yeah. I'm with you. I mean, that's the only – and do Mando later in the year. That's the only thing. I still think Mando happens. Maybe we get better sales in that summer-fall swing. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Currently, it sounds like anyone will buy anything. They're going to be buying Redoed Fathoms.
    48:11
    Redone. Redonked. Redonktified Fathoms. You know a guy that has two thumbs that is in love with Grogu? This guy. Don't call it Grogu. The child. Yeah. Okay.
    48:26
    Sound like an adult, at least, when you say it. Grogu. No, I meant just call it the child. Oh, I thought you... What a terrible name. I thought that was on like 300 battling in the pit. It's not Baby Yoda. You know what? We're the fans and we decide and it's Baby Yoda. Deal with it. Sorry, Disney. That's what you get when you buy LucasArts. I will say this. Randy Martinez, listener, the artist of the comic editions of the Stern Star Wars pinball, which out of nowhere they stopped making. Odd, right?
    48:57
    Hmm. Not really. No. He said on social media that he guarantees we will see his art on a pinball machine very soon. He is an authorized Lucasfilm slash Disney Star Wars artist. And he did an impeccable job on the comic edition of Star Wars. And just last week, he was live video chatting doing artwork of Mandalorian. I'm not trying to be Charlie Day here and connecting the dots on a bulletin board and strings but I hope that's true because do yourself a favor, go on Randy Martinez social media and look at his work for the Mandalorian and you'll want to buy it I was listening to a recent Canadian Pinball podcast he was talking about the dealer distributor Ellie Allotment he's claiming that all dealers are out of Ellie's before the game has even been seen I don't know, all I can say is our list is very long and I do not anticipate getting close to the number that we have on our list. All of those in the later list for flipping out pinball for a rumored Ellie Mandalorian have been notified that it would be slim that they would get one. So just trying to be honest there. Kanade was also asking about how Ellie's are distributed and we get to kind of pick our own how many we want. So here's the deal. I don't know if this is public knowledge. I don't be careful with what I think Stern is okay with us telling. It's not really a secret though. Here's how dealers get their LEs. There are different allotments between dealers and the number of LEs that they do receive. It is not based entirely upon the desire of said dealer of how many LEs they want. Oftentimes, I don't know if there is an official algorithm out there or an equation that calculates how many LEs people get. some dealers may not want any le's some dealers like myself want five times more than i'm allotted because i just want to sell thousands of games dennis but the way it works i believe is based on kind of the sales that you have achieved over the previous fiscal year or the quarter or whatever they use as a measurement so it's not really a thing that i just say hey guys if Mandalorian comes out, I want 100 LEs. And they're like, absolutely. That doesn't make sense because if they make 500 or 600, they have to disperse them throughout the entire world. And how do you do that? Because more dealers are going to want any more. In common pinball distribution business, there are more LEs desired than there are supply for them. That wasn't always the case circa WrestleMania, I believe. WWE. So we can say how many we want, but ultimately it's going to be up to a growing and a building algorithm or equation. That's how it's done. Do you know that, Dennis, or would that just bore you? I mean, it would be how I would assume it would be done. So it doesn't bore me, but it also doesn't surprise me. So this is the way. I can say that in two years that I've been, two and a half years that I've been a dealer, I've never been able to get the amount of LEs that I want. That's okay. It keeps me fighting to get as many as I can for our customers. That's all. What happens to Fathom 2.0 if they drop Mando next week? Or this week, I guess. That's a really good question. I think that Fathom sales will already be done. The non-refundables will be in. So I don't think it's a worry. So that's Stern Pinball News. Straight down the middle, a little plug here. We reviewed over at Straight Down the Middle, Stern's Avengers Infinity Quest. I'm sure you didn't watch that, Dennis, because you don't want to see how proper reviews are done i'm sure that uh some value in the realm of b was given by greg so why would i bother because it's not about the letter grade it's about the discussion uh if it's about a review then if they're all getting the same score i'm not getting anything out of it well look at my scores my my scores differ if the bar has been raised then a b should be a c at this point like if pinball's improved that much like what's the scale mean if you're always like well it's a little above average. Okay, well, if everything's a little above average, then average must be redefined. You don't want to go down this path, though. You're not ready. You're not ready to go down this path. Why can't every new pinball machine be better than average? Can we argue that one isn't?
    53:29
    I think they are. No, it's not possible for everything to be better than average because you're not. Then what is average? You're saying, well, nothing average exists. Everything's above average. That's impossible. I would say the composite of 2,000 to 3,000 pinball machines that have been produced. That's what my argument would be. Okay. You're going to have your argument, and I'll just not watch pointless reviews that don't really review.
    53:53
    You're taking that back. No, I won't do it. Screw your stupid channel and doing rubber band reviews. What the hell? Talk about that later. Spooky pinball on the news. No, we're not. We're not here to plug your stupid rubber band show.
    54:08
    I had someone message me. I hadn't even seen your video. They were like, what is going on? I'm like, oh, God, this is stupid. Rubber bands, really? Did you see my topper video? I did. Thank you. Okay, I thought you saw that. I watched that. People really thought that eye trick was, I did that. And I was like, that was my first dabble into masking. That was really bad. That was poorly done. But, yeah, okay. If you have that. But I watched it. So it doesn't matter if it was poorly done. It was two minutes. Yeah. Thank you, at least. That's the only thing you'll want. Spooky Pinball's Charlie Emery was on the Final Round Pinball podcast here on TPN with Jeff Teelis and Martin Robbins this last week The rule creator, Martin Robbins Yes, industry professional So Charlie Emery was on the Final Round Pinball podcast He did speak to the constructs of horror and sci-fi being central to their production vision But they would consider something like a comedy based title but their bread and butter is going to be horror and sci-fi because that's who Charlie is. I know, but I still think that the sci-fi thing, it's a change-up from what they originally really thought. Sure, yeah. Okay, yeah. That's fine. Actually, I think it's good. I don't think that they should only do horror pins. I think that would be a huge mistake. But they definitely don't feel like they're emphasizing horror at all anymore, and they can still say it's a core strategy, but I'm not seeing it. A large portion of sci-fi genre is inherently thriller-based or horror-based. There's a sub-genre in sci-fi that is horror-based. I think what you're thinking more of, though I could be wrong, is speculative fiction, which is horror, science fiction, and fantasy are all combined together as specfic. Really? So if he wants to say Spooky is a specfic company, I definitely wouldn't object to the idea, but that definitely isn't what the name implies. implies do you think we'll ever get one of the greatest sci-fi films or films in general ever made into a pinball machine by the name of interstellar i would be still in on that it would have made more sense closer to when it came out but it's conceivable it could get culty i could see a company like spooky doing it sure oh to think about the organs boom oh man Love you, Matthew McConaughey. All right, all right, all right. That's right. I actually didn't love Interstellar. Why? Why even fucking add that? Like, it's greatness. It's one of my favorites. Because I'm just trying to imagine the toy is going to be the stupid bookcase. Throw in there. You're going to hide behind the bookcase. You try to conceptualize that on video to the general masses. I thought it was a damn great attempt and better than any other attempt. Maybe don't make the movie for the general masses if they're too dumb. but they made it for whoever's going to watch it and Christopher Nolan's going to make greatness regardless so people are going to go watch it this is going to bomb, people are going to go and watch Inception was a better film Inception was messy in a couple parts where I think that's your psych speak infecting your view of that film Interstellar I think was cleaner conceptual science Interstellar screwed up with time too much The power of love was no. No, it was emotion. It was love. The feeling that you get when Matthew McConaughey knows he's going down to that planet and time is going to be at a different ratio. And when he comes back up, his kids are then going to be adults. If that doesn't kick you in the heart. I'd rather have the Martian as a pinball machine. Get the fuck out of here, Martian. Building potatoes in the... No, stop.
    57:42
    That's right. I want poop potato mopey ball. What's taters, precious? It's taters. A shmeagle in space.
    57:51
    That'd be a special mystery. Him and Leprechaun. Maybe that should be their new pin, Leprechaun. I don't think I've seen that one. What? You've never seen Leprechaun?
    58:00
    It's on Prime. Maybe I should watch it. I've seen... I think the last one I saw was Leprechaun in the Hood.
    58:07
    A friend with weed is a friend indeed. But a friend with gold is the best I'm told. I definitely need to go see that again. I could get behind Spooky doing a leprechaun pit with Jennifer Aniston. Oh, yeah, the first leprechaun. Oh, yes, yes. Get Warwick Davis to do call-outs. Is he still alive? I think so. I thought he was in the first season of Mando as one of the... Yeah, as the... ...hundred people in the season finale, I think. I think you're right. But he might be dead. No, he's fine. He'll get better. Spooky Pinball Listener is finishing up Rick and Morty actually early. That's a nice job. Wow, that's pretty impressive given the pandemic. Yeah, nicely done. Thus, this summer, or spring-summer, they're going to be gearing up for their next title production. Rumors are June. And I've been hearing not TNA 2.0 now. Correct. Yeah, I've been hearing the same. That may come, but it's certainly not coming. No, it will never come if it doesn't come immediately. Really? That's my guess. I think it's still holding. I didn't understand them going back to that well at all anyway. I think it'll hold and we'll have enough that are beaten up in a year and a half. They are too old to begin the training. We know that David Van Ness, I believe, is the designer. But Charlie did say this was more of a teamwork thing on this title than any of the previous titles. I don't know what the theme is. Fellow podcaster Kaneda was kind of hinting around it to it being, you heard it here, Scooby-Doo pinball, blah, blah. Then the next day he says, no, it's not Scooby-Doo. So I don't know what it is. Scooby-Doo would have been fantastic, but no. Did you hear Amanda last week said Scooby-Doo wouldn't be good? Well, I mean, I wouldn't be in on Scooby-Doo either, so I don't blame her. Free basing Scooby Snacks? I don't know where her mind is on that one. But I'm also, you know, Charlie and I don't see eye to eye because he doesn't like Event Horizon, and I do. Man, he really shit on that. That was one of Marty's favorites. That's right. Marty's right. Maybe Marty could fathom 2.0 rules and make it Event Horizon. Oh, they can have a spooky sci-fi off, or what do you call it? Have you ever seen Fire in Space? It's beautiful. mama bear open the door i hate sand is that a thing maybe i don't know yeah i'm not it's a different sort of thing it's one that the world continues to be shocked that you don't know so we don't know what the what it is it sounds like it's a horror sci-fi based thing a little tongue-in-cheek kind of thing they were talking about doing so much of their stuff in-house i thought was nicely done locally um machine shop they make ramps there they're making and make everything there. I love that. And they do take feedback from the community. He was talking about trying to improve upon every title they produce. For example, everybody was hating that damn power supply. Oh, it is loud. Oh, it is. It's horrible. I thought it was interesting that they kind of argued that they didn't realize it was loud. Really?
    61:03
    Come on, Charlie. It's really loud. I mean, I played TNA yesterday, turned that thing on, and I'm like, let that jet boot up. Yeah. I just feel like the fucking thing is going to take off. So they're fixing that. He said stuff like that, they'll fix. That's nice. He came across very well on the podcast, and I think that's paramount to his company doing well. They're doing really good over there. He's very Midwest nice. Yes. They were talking about Rick and Morty. I didn't know this. Of course they got all the assets and everything, but they actually had to modify the content of that original Rick and Morty wizard mode due to the concerns from the studio they pitched an idea that they were really excited about the studio said no a little a little out there a little raunchy a little a little too well i don't know going in and thinking that your your defense is going to be well you let him be a pickle like we'll give you just carte blanche to do anything yeah maybe not maybe they do have some standards all i can say is and people can hear the interview and should for themselves but he was too uncomfortable to even tell us what it was sure it's true so whatever it was was probably really bad far worse than a pickle oh it's probably dragon sluts he was talking about playfields he said playfields are great this is this is interesting they only replaced one alice cooper playfield because of clear code or playfield issues and so far in rick and morty not one has needed to be replaced that's good he was kind of looking up for the you heard this He's kind of looking up for the other manufacturers about comparing the playfield quality standards of current machines versus, you know, the coveted Bally Williams era. Those things were hard. They didn't dimple. He said he finds it hard to believe that anybody is trying to shortcut knowing that there could potentially be issues in their playfield because he said to fix those issues are exponentially more expensive than just doing the right thing and spending the right amount of money. on the play fields. So he's kind of looking up, and he said, honestly, everybody holds the high regard of these Bally Williams play fields. They weren't that great. He said, if you really look at them, they were not that great compared to, he said, the standards now that the hobbyists have are so much different than the standards that people had back in the day. Thus, if we have the same hobbyist back then as we do now, he said the Bally Williams would get shit on as well. That's a fair point. And while I don't suspect that any company is deliberately trying to cheap out and is happy with the complaints about the play fields. It depends on the fix in terms of whether it's cheaper to solve the issue. If you're just sending people some rubber washers, not everyone's replacing play fields. Yeah, that's true. David Thiel was in the news. Now, David Thiel had a comment on social media I found interesting. He was responding to Retro Senjo. He said, that is a fair question. I was exclusive with Deep Root Pinball starting February 2018. 2018, Deep Root has not manufactured a machine yet, but I have been very busy. I stopped being exclusive July 2020. It is very likely that four pinball machines, side note, listener, four, four, including DP, what's DP Alien? Including DP, I don't know what DP Alien is. It might be Deep Root Pinball DP. Yeah, but they didn't do it. They have an alien? No. What? Will be manufactured with my audio. One will be Deep Root, which he indicates is DR, so that DP is off. One will be Deep Root Raza. One is super secret, but I expect that will be revealed in third quarter. The four is 10 weeks away from production. All of these are great pins, and I'm excited about each project. I found it interesting. I don't know what David Thiel is working on. He's one of the greatest ever when it comes to audio packages of pinball machines. Yeah, sorry, Jerry.
    64:56
    Cheer, Pierre. Love you, Thompson. So I don't know what he's working on. I don't know what Saps is working on either. Did you hear the Saps aren't dead? I heard on Loser Kid, yeah. Super Awesome Pinball Show appeared on the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast this last week to clear the air on the death of their podcast. They posted a tombstone. They did. They posted a tombstone. Look, I'm a simple person with simple means of understanding. I saw a tombstone. I unsubscribed. That's what it told me is you're gone. You're in the ground. There was a tombstone. They said, well, you know, maybe that was a wrong way to say we're taking a break.
    65:33
    I never even implied death. I don't. What a death thing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. I am in the piano key necktie. I need people to spell this stuff out for me It the same look I can have this I can have this will they or won they my podcatcher is getting tired of me changing up all these lineups of shows i already filled in their spot with another show all right what the fuck francy and chris and line are doing but they went on this the loser kid pinball podcast and said it was a fun episode on loser kid i enjoyed it they said the show's not dead don't uh fear not uh they indicated that there's no longer going to be a bi-weekly show. Because it's a lot of work. Wait! They don't even do a bi-weekly show. Yeah, maybe towards the end they kind of got to that schedule. But early on I know they weren't. Twippy season.
    66:29
    It was so weird. They're going to continue the show, but mainly just whenever new titles are released. And they're assuming that all creators of these new titles are going to be giving them exclusivity with interviews. The Saps Insider Program. I'm trying to report this objectively. Chris Franchi is going to be doing a fireside chat. First guest is going to be George Gomez. I always like to listen to George. George is a good guest.
    66:52
    They did attribute the faux, I'm going to call it faux death, of Saps to just being busy in life and, in general, a lot of negativity. Oh, did they face a lot? I'm assuming Franchi did. I mean I and again I don't watch all the pinball groups as closely as I used to but I don't recall seeing a lot of negativity about their show I think it's just Kaneda and Franchi going back and forth and then oh like an infight sort of thing well it's not really infighting if it's external so and Franchi's had okay Franchi's got into some some tiffs because of his artwork and stuff so you know to say he's controversial I think it's fair well almost almost maybe I shouldn't say almost a lot of podcasts do get blowback from time to time we've we've gotten blowback too so it does happen yeah christian line was saying that his thin mostly all because of you but it's fair his i'm midwest nice they all like me is that the one time i i criticized pin side oh i got some mad people careful careful with those guys now christian line said his skin plentiful of thickness He's got some girthy skin. Franchi indicated that his own skin, though, isn't thick enough for some of these negative comments on social media, and it burns him up inside. Yeah, that probably weighs heavily if you're spending some work and stuff on this. It's the biggest thing, I think, that keeps people out of content creating and hobbies that they enjoy is that concern. It was my initial concern in Eclectic Gamers Podcast Startup. Oh, yeah. Tony and I were super nervous, too. If you go back and listen to the early shows, you'll hear it. You'll hear how formal it is, and that's because I knew Pinball's reputation for being cruel. I don't know. I think I'm blessed with the ignorance of not ever worrying about that, just jumping in. Sure. Well, that's you. I mean, let me give you a case in point with – you brought up on the last TPS that I was on about the YouTube I've started doing on the watch collecting hobby that I participate in. And I had someone after that episode aired. I had someone go and leave a comment on one of my videos, and they said, please don't use the word hate when talking about watches. You shouldn't have to hate any watches, sort of a paraphrase, because I used the word hate to describe a design I didn't like. And I responded, and I was like, oh, a good point. Hate is a really strong word. But, of course, in my head, I'm thinking, dude, I come from pinball. If I don't use the word hate, no one will even listen to me. Why is hate such a bad – Everyone wants a hard take in this hobby. You can hate stuff. And it's so weird and refreshing, I must say, in another hobby where they don't react that way. Yeah, I like the word hate, and I think it's accurate for a lot of things. Well, and a lot of times – but the point being that it was a – and I've seen participating in their forums and stuff, and it's not that people don't disagree, but it's really different. And maybe it's because of the walks of life different people approach different hobbies from. But pinball is one of the – I mean, gosh, I even came from video games. And in some ways, at least then, like the fanboy wars were all like about which console was best and things like that. And pinball, it is – I don't know. It's the most cruel hobby I've ever participated in. Oh, that's interesting. So I'll give Franchi that for sure. And compared to anything else I've done, y'all are mean. Y'all like get off on it. Yeah, Franchi did say that he was upset about the negative comments a lot regarding the Twippies. He said he had a lot of shit for that. But then he also said that they merely put out one post, single, one post for campaigning for that award.
    70:32
    So that's just factually incorrect. That's where he hung me up. I was like, okay, all right, you don't have to explain all this. But then when you say something that is not true, as if it's true, then I have a problem. Then I'm like, what are you talking about? For fuck's sake, Chris, like you, one post, you had one campaigning post for the Twippy. Come on, get the fuck out of here. I guess that's crazy talk there. I never counted them. I don't know how many anyone did. All you need is the capability to count to fucking two. I understand that, Zach, but we weren't campaigning for Twippy. so I just didn't I mean I don't want to I didn't care so I didn't go in and pay attention. Here's the thing that I remember about Saps and the Twippy though since you brought it up and I don't know if this was part of what got him these negative comments he was upset about about the Twippies but I do remember when I got an email from Cointaker asking for me to vote for Saps and the thing that stood out wasn't just that this distributor emailed me and asked me to vote for a show, but also that while I knew because I listened to Saps that CoinTaker was a sponsor of their podcast, CoinTaker was also a sponsor of the Twippies. Maybe some people blamed the Saps folks for that email going out. I did not. I thought it was not very classy to sponsor both shows and then start telling me how I should vote. It didn't matter who they were telling me to vote for. It was like, why are you doing this? I won't be surprised if uh if the twippies next year maybe have a have a new rule on what their sponsors are permitted to do i don't it gets you know it's tough when you've got a sponsor because they're giving you money but it's it was weird i just found that really weird and i it did cross my mind did they ask them to send this email out we'll never know uh who knows well i don't in a way i don't care i mean the bottom line is is that it did go out and this was an entity that was sponsoring both an award show and someone up for an award and then telling me to vote for the one that they supported and i just but again i didn't blame and this kind of ranchi or or christian for that this kind of stuff i i legit i give two shits about i i only it it raises my ire a bit whenever somebody presents something as fact it's just it's clearly and refutably not true that's what i'm like whatever okay so but going forward that's the good thing they were talking about a third a third host, Sarah Line, Miss Penn, who's a spouse of Dr. Penn, Christian Line, one of the hosts. They wanted Sarah Line to become a third regular host of the program, which I thought was a good idea. She said kind of too much drama associated with her show to have any interest for that, which I thought was funny. Why would you think it's a good idea? I thought the show was stronger as a two-host model than a three. I think that when she was on there, it was entertaining. It is, but there's a difference between being the regular host and then being a guest and the dynamic changes. Sure.
    73:38
    I was more fun when I was just occasionally guest hosting on Twip the Podcast than I am here. That's so bullshit. It's true. You know it is. It's not even close to being true, actually. You're more fun when you allowed me to sing. No.
    73:52
    I did the people a favor stopping that. I'm just very glad at the end of all this Christian Line said that going forward they want to reformat a little bit. They want to be a different show. they want to be quote not canada or quote sensationalist so they're you know they talked about taking the higher road they talked about taking the higher road so i'm glad i'm glad after preaching about taking the higher road and not being a negative podcast i'm glad about that unfortunately the very next day super awesome pinball show puts out a teaser episode about what they discussed on loser kid stick around to the end of the credits though where they already ask for fucking twippy votes for 2021 and make several negative and toxic statements about a fellow podcaster welcome back guys question mark i don't fucking care well we've reached the end of the show zach this has been a fun episode all right put all this negativity aside because we've got something beloved people want this they want it so much they want it multiple times a week no no no interview with a rubber band collector it's not your rare orgasms the rubber pain collect a dumb idea oh my god i think it's a great idea it definitely was your idea too straight down the middle is going to be covering more than just pinball what's wrong with that rubber bands you know how much love we have to spread Get ready. Rubber band man. Get down. Pinball Network presenting the pinball show presenting Let's Do This. Leroy Jenkins!
    75:33
    That's a pretty good impression. Ladies and gentlemen, that's how you do it. I even added the Let's Do This before. Couldn't really make out what he says prior to that, but Let's Do This, Leroy Jenkins. Same cadence, too. Everyone's listening at 3X, so it don't matter. Leroy Jenkins!
    75:48
    Sounds just like straight out of the middle of a pinball show. Oh. Turning up this week is Elvira's House of Whores by Stern Pinball. Want to know why, Den Den? Sure. Why not? Tell me. Well, because right now, premiums are selling for over $10,000, which is just ridiculous. It's happening. That is pretty ridiculous. It is happening. It's a good game. Yeah, they're doing another run here in May, June? July? July, something like that. I forget. I have to look at my- I thought July. My sources have been saying July. I'd have to go back and look. It could be. I don't know. But doing another run then, those are good luck. they're all sold out every dealer's gone the next run i've been told is 2022 which i can't fathom see what i did there but it is true now here's the thing that makes this trend up even more it's high on the pin side top 100 not no changes there i am getting people that say to me zach i would like an elvira i'm anticipating having to break the news to them that they're going to have to wait until 2022 and losing the sale but they then tell me quickly i understand it's off until 2022 but if you have any spots left for the 2022 run i'm in ladies and gentlemen i don't know how you can trend up anything else higher than that that's weird avara 4 might be out by then holy moly i think this is a testament to lime and sheets like no other 20 it is beloved no problem sign me up also trading up this week is stern pinball's iron maiden another little resurgence coming out of nowhere, but people are asking for Iron Maiden currently, right now, more than they are asking for Jurassic Park, more than they are asking in the last month. Deadpool? Iron Maiden, don't know where it's coming from. A little research. I think it's, as people have grown to get familiar with the trifecta that is the Elwynn collection, you know, I've heard a number of people that are not the biggest fans of the Avengers and are turning to his other titles. Maybe you should check out Straight Outta the Middle, see what we think about it. I hear they do good reviews. I hear they do a lot of B reviews so I guess that means good for the game oh because you're going to argue that Avengers is lower than a B I haven't played Avengers yet so exactly I'm not going to argue anything so why should I watch next production run of Iron Maiden is in July running both the pros and premiums I guess maybe that's leading to this trend as well lastly trending up this week I have to it's Haggis Pinball with Damien it's Martin motherfucking Robbins with TP in the final round. Melbourne Silver Bowl League. And formerly from the head-to-head pinball podcast and all around just a sweet pea. There you go, guys. And Dr. John, Dr. John Cawson, the MVP this week, probably this month, and maybe even this year. Pinball show for his pundits. Yeah, he's the best. He's the best. See, I can't even sing it. I wasn't even going to sing. What do you call that? Nope. It's too close. I'll hang up. Quasi-singing. Lessons have to be learned. trending down this week is those original fathoms good luck no that's crap you have no idea what that trend will be on fathom this news just dropped i do it's news now it's happened now and overnight your original fathom is no longer worth what it was thus a trend no no the new ones are selling for more than the old ones go for they might go up a few hundred what i like be like it's still cheaper it's still 500 cheaper even we add 500 to the price i'm just saying you're basing I'm talking this off of no market trend. You didn't analyze anything. This is made up. No. Because this news isn't known. They just found out listening to us or going to wherever they got their exclusive news from. The lady on the Matrix that has the spoons and tells Neo in the kitchen, you think that... The Oracle? The Oracle, would you argue against her? You don't know what's going to happen, Oracle. I don't know. Am I going to get a cookie out of it or not? Well, I may be the pinball market Oracle. Listen to me. Also trending down this week a little bit is Stern Pinball's Led Zeppelin. Uh-oh, not flying off the shelves currently. People are anticipating and eagerly awaiting this next title release. So you're seeing a little bit of a dry spell on Led Zeppelin on the secondary market. Prices on premiums already dropping right at that $7,000 spot. Prices on the pros you're seeing dip into about $5,000 as well. So you're seeing a little bit of drop. and the downtrend in sales. Also trending down this week is something that I just loathe. Something that I want to see burn upon a fire and never come back to civilization again. It even has a nasty fucking name. Popeye. And it's called NFT. Trending down is NFT. It's actually trending up, but I'm so salty about this shit that I'm trending it down selfishly. Non-fungible tokens. The fuck is that? NFT. You know this shit now? Is worth more, Dennis, NFTs are worth more than actual tangible assets? Mm-hmm. Why? Explain to me why a... People need new things to speculate on. A digital picture is worth more than something in my hand. At least this has got a picture on it. This is complete bullshit. Let's open up a pack of sports cards or Pokemon cards and save them on our hard drive or our cloud. What are we doing, people? What has this new Gen Z done to this place? I don't like the direction. Blaming the youngins. Well, who else is it? Get off your lawn. Who else is it? Get off your lawn before you poke a hole in my pool. The boomers. Make it deflate. The exes. We wouldn't stand for this shit. We didn't create this. Fucking Jeff Bezos over there. NFT. Thanks, Tom Brady. I don't want any of your shit. But who is it? Who's after Gen Z? Who can we blame next? I don't know if they've been named yet or not. Save a Bitcoin. Save a Dogecoin. What kind of dog is that? It's like an Australian shepherd. No, it's a shepherd of some type. a Shippa, a Sherpa, a Shapiro. I don't know what kind of dog that is. I think I'm close, though. And deals of the week. Bye, bye, bye. Deals of the week this week, an Ironman vault on Pennside that you can find. Out of Oakdale, Minnesota, Viking 84 is the handle. Up for trade, listed at $5,000 or trade. Very clean, pristine Ironman vault edition. If you take a look at this, this thing is juicy and minty. Look at that magnet, baby. On the Shadow, you look for the Sanctum. On other pins, you look in the Shooter Lane. On an Iron Man, you look at those magnets. Never got the upgraded big magnets that you see on a lot of newer sterns, so magnet will tell all. And I'd lick that magnet. I would lick the fuck out of that magnet. Looks good.
    82:21
    So for a Minty Iron Man Vault, $5,000 trade-in value? All day long. Another deal of the week is a Walking Dead LE. outside of Little Elm, Texas. You ever been down to Little Elm, Texas? No, I don't think so. This Walking Dead LE only has 100 plays. It's brand new. It's got a Modfather zombie. 100 plays? That game is like 7 years old. I know. How does that even happen, right? Exactly. How does that happen? Maybe 100 plays since the last code update. But for $8,500 Oboe in this market, this is a steal. Buy, buy, buy! Plus, they put Voodoo Glass in there and that's a couple hundred dollars. Take that out, sell it. You're now early, like a brand new LE for $8,000. And that was your Deals of the Week. Deals of the What the Fuck This Week are Led Zeppelin topper. Too soon, bro. Too soon. A Led Zeppelin topper for $1,650 outside of Cincinnati Dayton area. I like the 50 on there. By rehab free. Right. Open for offers. How about retail? They haven't even shipped the majority of them yet. Now, if you're looking to flip toppers and make some money, I'm not hating on you. you kind of are and you're kind of responsible for the war store it for six months that's all i'm saying store it for six months carbonite don't pull it out now oh i got one of the first ones do you want to wait two weeks or six no this is not fomo worthy nope nope nope ladies and gentlemen that was your pinball market trends edition all right dennis we're closing down the show where can people catch you make an email me over at a collector gamers podcast at gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash CollectedGamersPodcast and send a message over there and I will get it. Do you have any NFT swag you can sell them? Nope, I don't do any NFTs. You do play video games. I do.
    84:10
    Video games are the NFT to pinball. I kind of love that. You can catch me here at the pinball network at gmail.com or reach out to Straight Down the Middle. I heard that they're changing up the format of their show a little bit. So, sdtmpinball.gmail.com. Go watch that video. It explains everything. And if you're ready to buy a brand new pinball machine, arcade machine, or some NFT action, Flippin' Out Pinball. 812-457-9711. Be a pal. Be a friend. Support someone who's going above and beyond for you. And that's me and Nicole at Flippin' Out Pinball. Product showcase this week is everything. Because you want it. It's not fathom yet. Maybe. Maybe in the future. not that yet but we have stranger things pros those are going fast now still in the box ready to go avengers pro tmnt pro and premium led zeppelin pro i believe jurassic park pros are rolling in as well we got a couple of those spots left hot wheels armor banners accessories toppers a little thin on on pre-orders for those golden tees we got more ordered we still got some of those arcades sit down shooting Jurassic Parks. Support us. Help us out. TPN last week, final round pinball podcast, episode 32, with not only Charlie Emery, as we talked about, but Craig Bobby. Too busy doing interviews to get us some news. Yeah. Come on, Craig. TPN this week. It's a mystery. I have no clue. I think we're up for just another pinball podcast.
    85:42
    Yeah, probably. Bruce! Where you at, Bruce? I miss Bruce. I want to hear a Bruce podcast. We have no idea. I'll have to wait and see. For Dennis Creasel, I'm always Zach Manning. And remember, don't get the black lung pop. Make yourself a merman or a mermaid today. And always practice safe pinball. And Leroy Jenkins attacked my wife. Leroy Jenkins. Up. So long, you lickable people. Tell me lies. Tell me sweet little lies.
    86:12
    Tell me lies. Tell me, tell me lies. I tried signing up for that. Have you dabbled in that? Oh, God, don't dabble in crypto. Unless you know what you're doing and you don't. I was going to try. No, don't. Just buy GameStop stock or something instead. At least you understand what it is. I really don't. I don't understand crypto and I don't want to. And I don't want to. I don't trust money. I can't see. I know. I don't believe in this shit. What's it based off of? It's based off of blockchain. What does that mean? What does it mean? What does this all mean? Is there a cloud involved? There's always clouds. Yeah, but you don't want Dr. John to get in trouble. then he might be sold game number two instead of number one be sad make him sad doctor all from the same era ah i'm right fuck you i mean hi zach nice god it might do iwpc sounds stupid now doesn't it let's do this oh hold up i'm sorry i'm so disruptive
    87:17
    Tell me lies, tell me, tell me lies Oh no, no, you can't disguise You can't disguise Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies Tell me, tell me lies