It's all right. I I don't need I don't need to hop on the bandwagon because I'm driving the freight train ever since release. But hop aboard everybody because it is that good. King Kong accessories. Maybe even before King Kong accessories. Maybe even before that. Wouldn't that be fitting? Wouldn't that be fitting? I swear X-Men is the slowest game to get across the finish. I thought nothing could do worse than Bond, but I I just I don't know. The thing is with Bond, you know it was The thing is with Bond, you know it was licenser stuff and with Uncanny X-Men, you know it's not because they've already said how easy it is to work with like the comic side of Marvel with Deadpool. So, you know it's not the licenser. Brings up a good point though. What Brings up a good point though. What George did talk about is whenever they're making these accessories, he I think he used the term hangover. Bit of a hangover after designing this Bit of a hangover after designing this game and everything and then Wow. That that was That that was Yes, I did. It sounded scary. Yes, I did. It sounded scary. Was that Do you have Gorgar? Was that Do you have Gorgar? I have Harry Potter. Gorgar speaks back I have Harry Potter. Gorgar speaks back there with his LED rainbow LED. No, the uh he talked about the hangover of like making the accessories after you've just done all the game kind of thing. So, with Uncanny X-Men, we know that there was a bit of a falling out maybe uh with the the code falling out is a weird term. There's been a delay more so than most and they're using different people to come and resurrect and fill this game up. And maybe that's the same with the accessories. The reason I bring it up is because the fellas over at Loser Kid asked about the personnel changes for Stern Pimp. Okay. Jack Danger changing positions, Tim Jack Danger changing positions, Tim Sexton leaving. And George said when it comes to Tim leaving, like he just he wanted to go do something else. So that is what it is. But with Jack that is what it is. But with Jack Danger, Jack Danger was the designer on Uncanny X-Men. He was in the process of designing another game to be released. It sounded as if that would be the January release. He was in quue, but we know that Jack Danger has now but we know that Jack Danger has now changed positions at Stern Pinball to be the what they're calling head of community. He George said he missed streaming and content creation, interacting with the public. Now, prior to this interview, I had heard from I think it was from Jack and and different interview stuff that he was just kind of out and another team was going to come in and finish up the the game design. That was my understanding. That was my understanding. So, I thought he was done. It almost So, I thought he was done. It almost sounded as if I don't know the ideology of what came and why, but it sounded as if Jack Danger was missing his old position and maybe overwhelmed with the duties of designer. Maybe he didn't like the process of designing pinball machines after he had not even a taste. I mean, he had full course meals when it comes to um Foo Fighters and arguably the Jurassic Park home. His third one, he finally got across the finish line. Everybody [ __ ] on him and the coding team on that game. Did they Did they The coding team's not him though, right? I mean, like ultimately in charge of the team in charge of the team now the management side and and I know now the management side and and I know loser kids in the in a prior episode that I I did hear discussed the you know the notion of maybe it was the team management pieces the a piece that Elwin has said is actually the hardest for him is the sheer amount of project management work that goes into this. So, he had that. I mean, if he did crap on the plunge don't work, there's a flipper hop. And then Stern had to come back and make these kids. I like the tone. Like, those aren't I like the tone. Like, those aren't actual legitimate complaints. The the demigorgan doesn't eat the ball. No, the demigorgan doesn't eat the ball. No, that's fine. They don't need to eat the ball. Results vary. Results vary. Sure. Just like the demigorgans. Some of Sure. Just like the demigorgans. Some of them, I heard ate the ball. None of the early ones I played did, but I heard purportedly it was possible with a perfect setup. I'm I am confident and confident enough I'm I am confident and confident enough to say that based on all of the Uncanny X-Men different variations I've seen, I think that overall the complaints with Plunge and Flipper Hop and all that were exaggerated. If that if that makes me get kick kickback, so be it. That's just honestly how I feel. and I've played over 20 different versions of them. So, my at least my my uh pool of data is larger than most. Sure, it is. I I think for me, I'm not Sure, it is. I I think for me, I'm not I'm not hung up like I didn't I haven't played an X-Men where I had a plunge problem or anything, for example. Um I I guess I'm and every person's different, so I don't want you know, this is probably this probably means nothing. But I it it's interesting to me though that it wouldn't be enough to do what Pat Lawler and Steve Richie have done, which is like I I think the way I've always interpreted from hearing them uh have analyzed their own successes. How good do my games sell? And Jack's games sold well. So that's where I'm like uh and I talked about this on Eclectic uh and I talked about this on Eclectic Gamers podcast um last week. I'm just like I don't like Jack's had a lot of success with his two cornerstones. They both sold very very well. Uh regardless of the after feedback and and so I from Stern's perspective Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I don't understand why they why they I don't understand why they why they would I again it sounds like everything I've heard is this was all Jack's idea which totally makes sense to me because I'm like if I was stern corporate I'd be like I do not want you to not be a designer. The only one who's out selling you is Elwin. But but we don't we don't it could But but we don't we don't it could that's the problem. We don't know if it was it Stern pushing him out. Was it uh because there's more factors that go into that than just sales numbers or like there's a lot of factors in uh I guess but I mean they put up with I guess but I mean they put up with Richie for example for years and you know everyone who was like on his software design team like would just like never I mean Dwight's made no secret like at the end of a project with Steve they aren't talking anymore like they're not friends anymore. It's because Steve is difficult. In fact, uh Tim Ston was supposedly the only one I'd ever really heard that regularly as a programmer like could get along with him well enough to be willing to work multiple projects in a row with him. Mhm. Mhm. But again, he was able to regardless of But again, he was able to regardless of how his project management style was. Steve lasted for years and years and years. He right saleswise from a business He right saleswise from a business perspective, from a company standpoint, sold games. I I was arguing on our was it happy hour hangout that Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, this guy got two subpar themes and sold this guy got two subpar themes and sold the hell out of the games. Foo X-Men's not a bad theme. Foo Fighters. I X-Men's not a bad theme. Foo Fighters. I agree. That's a weak theme. X-Men's not a bad theme. The uncanny The uncanny X-Men. No one cares about the word before it. No one cares about the word before it. They just care X-Men. I think it hurts the branding put that I think it hurts the branding put that putting that word in there. I mean, I guess, but it's like getting hung up on when they did the remake of Spider-Man and they did like the anorexic Spider-Man. Like, I don't remember the name of that art style one, but that, you know, they went with a very specific style of of Spider-Man that a lot of people weren't really familiar with. But the the the key thing was it was comic book Spider-Man. That was that it was that I don't think it was as strong because I don't think it was as strong because it's been done before to to a large degree. Um, it's not based on films. Sure. Sure. I I just don't think it was a strong I I just don't think it was a strong theme. So with what he did on the first two, I was so excited to see and I when talking with executives of Stern, I'm I'll be happy to say this, but Jack and I have had our differences in the past. I think that's a for people that know publicly uh they for people that know publicly uh they know that, you know, there are certain things that have happened in the past for better or worse. And it's not just me, groups of people. And what I'm trying to say here, listener, is that we've had our differences of opinion very strongly towards one another. Uh, and I told an executive that they were just asking my opinion on things. And I told him that I said, "You gave that guy two themes that he still found a way to do sales." This is this was probably a couple months ago. And I guess in retrospect, it's funny now thinking of what that guy probably thought when I told him like one of your one of your gyms is Jack Danger. Like I selfishly want him to create games moving forward as a top three designer in our industry. I I was all in on Jack Danger as a designer because the two designed games that he has, Uncanny X-Men and uh Foo Fighters, I'll leave Jurassic Park is what it is, Home Edition, whatever. But those two games, I think, are two of the greatest designed pinball machines of all time. I'll stand by that. I have more fun playing on those. So, selfishly, and from a from a business perspective, too, sold a lot of games. So, if it is him wanting to step away, that sucks. That sucks bad because it hurts my pocketbook and it hurts my collection because I and that's coming from a guy that like like I said has a history. We're good now. But, so I think that that was is the most unbiased you can Well, maybe it's still biased because I'm still selling games. Damn it. I can't get out of it. I was wanting to prove a point of No, you're too biased. highly I I value No, you're too biased. highly I I value his game. So, I was freaking bummed hearing hearing that. But then George Gomez in this interview, Dennis says, quote, "He's going to finish his game." I'm like, "What? Wait, that contradicts what what I mean, it makes sense that he'll be I mean, it makes sense that he'll be involved in some capacity, but I who knows how far along it is. It may be mostly already done and the the cleanup crew wasn't going to really do much. So, you know, whatever. It sounds like a team approach if you It always is though. It always is though. Yeah, it always is. Sometimes heavier Yeah, it always is. Sometimes heavier than others, but it always is. What? Where was I going with all of that? You were going to tell us about George's You were going to tell us about George's biggest accomplishment in his entire career. Oh, uh, yeah, they asked him that. What Oh, uh, yeah, they asked him that. What a question. How do you answer that? He said probably inventing in insider connection. I wanted him to just say Corvette. Hey, I wanted him to just say Corvette. Hey, I love I just like he's like it's all been I just like he's like it's all been downhill since Corvette the Tron cabinet arcade cabinet. the Tron cabinet arcade cabinet. Yeah, my time at Midway. Yeah, my time at Midway. So he hire me back Midway. So he hire me back Midway. I'll make slot machines. I don't care. I'll make slot machines. I don't care. Inventing Insider Connected, he he believes probably is most impactful for people. Uh, but as a designer, maybe that's not his like favorite or most rewarding meaningful accomplishment, but he thinks his biggest impact will end up being his creation of insider connected platform. And I could I could see the argument. He to like I said before he turned 70 on June 1st. Is he going to retire? Is he not? What a legacy he has he has created thus far in pinball and throughout our lifetime. I don't think we'll see another like it. So, so he's he is a goat. Uh so he's he is a goat. Uh do you uh do you think his retirement's do you uh do you think his retirement's imminent? Like once Spike 3 is launched, he's going to step down. Anytime somebody goes up to the age of Anytime somebody goes up to the age of 70 and they're still doing as much as as he's doing, I have a hard time believing they're ever going to step away from it before they die. H H because I mean because I mean because he at this point he could have because he at this point he could have walked away. Sure. But Gary Stern worked well past 70 Sure. But Gary Stern worked well past 70 and has stepped back finally. He's still working. He will be working. He's still working. He will be working. Yeah. But not near but he stepped he's Yeah. But not near but he stepped he's stepped and again like George could retire and be a contractor or consultant or go part-time. Um who was it that did that? I think Wayne Nyions uh when he was lead designer at at Gotautleb after uh you know he he went and started consulting with Gotautleb and did a few years like that once he was sort of like yeah I'm at retirement point but I still want to kind of work I've known some people that that's the route they've gone where they've gotten to that 65 70 year age range and I worked with one for about a decade where I think he got to 62 retired and then went on to 72 working like one day a week was his just like and then just only now retired a couple and then just only now retired a couple years ago, like truly truly retired. Well, that kind of work though, Well, that kind of work though, continuing the work that you love will keep you alive. I do believe that. Yeah, it's where I could see where he Yeah, it's where I could see where he doesn't want to be totally, you know, devoid from doing stuff that's I mean, he's an engineer, is he not? I like wanting to continue to use that part of his his mind makes sense to me, but only being one foot in or one day in but only being one foot in or one day in a week. also the same type of personalities that become consumed and so passionate with things. It'd be hard just to put one foot in without diving all the way back in again and just doing it until you're dead. I don't know. I I couldn't imagine just doing it one day. But I mean, if they're letting Jack Danger I mean, if they're letting Jack Danger invent like head of community and do that, I could see George saying, "You know what? I'm I'm done running everything. That's a, you know, it's a younger man's game. I want a deal where uh every 24 months I can have a game come out and I just design on the side. Gets to use his engineering brain, Gets to use his engineering brain, doesn't have the same level of responsibility, and then he gets to go fish. I don't know if he likes to fish, but I George feels like a fisher to me. So, don't you think he's a better COO or don't you think he's a better COO or leader than he is designer? Um, Um, I'll say yes, just given that it seems like he does have really strong leadership qualities. Uh and we know of other uh people who are really good designers and though where we don't know if they have good leadership qualities or not like like Keith seems to have a welloiled machine with his team and he has a really consistent team. I don't know if if Keith is a great leader or not. Like I have no sense of it. He's clearly a great designer. His team seem very happy. So I'm going His team seem very happy. So I'm going to venture to say he's probably naturally pretty. He's at the very least a competent He's at the very least a competent leader. Mhm. Mhm. And you don't have to be the best. You And you don't have to be the best. You just have to be good. Mhm. Mhm. But for how much they put on those designers more than most people probably realize, I think that only works when you have a chief creative officer such as George Gomez. I Here's what I think from Stern's I Here's what I think from Stern's perspective. They would not want George to leave just like they shouldn't want uh Jack to not be a designer. It's like it doesn't there's maybe there's someone who's been proteged but that is that's some big that's some big shoes to fill thanks to that actually I've got the thanks to that actually I've got the ego. See find a person like me that's like if anybody's going to do it I can do it. Like there's people out there. Yeah. But they would never hire you. Yeah. But they would never hire you. No I'm not talking about me in general. No I'm not talking about me in general. I'm talking about my personality type. If I'm doing something I have full If I'm doing something I have full confidence that I'll do it as good if not better than anybody. Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah. Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah. And now what I said sounds really mean. And now what I said sounds really mean. No. No. No. No. In fact, they'll never In fact, they'll never I'll help you out, Dennis. I'll help you out, Dennis. You'll never be hired. You'll never be hired. Will never hire you. If I was given that position within one If I was given that position within one year, uh, I could do exceptional. How about that? See, so I helped you How about that? See, so I helped you look better now because I look like a fool saying that I could do that. It would be interesting to sort of see It would be interesting to sort of see them under the Zach Mini uh, business strategy approach because you would change a number of things up. They would succeed. That's what I'd be They would succeed. That's what I'd be confident of. But you'd have to deal with the internal strife as they resisted you from within. Well, it either you want to make money Well, it either you want to make money or you don't. That's the follow me or don't. Interesting enough, if we're talking about insider connected, I all tongue and cheek cheek there people for the most part. Um I'm trying to entertain, but I am confident. They talked about insider connected as we were talking about. A really interesting question they posed and I'm sorry we're stuck on this but this is really good content and again nicely done to loser kids for for interview and maybe even more so to George Gomez for his continued transparency to the hobby but they said will insider connected API or application programming interface. We ever going to see the API insider connected ever used by a third party? Now I I figured you would find that an interesting question Dennis. Um, I'm surprised they asked only because I would have assumed the answer would always be no. It was a bold question, a very bold It was a bold question, a very bold question. And their response, I think, and I love them. I think their response indicated why they were brave enough to even ask in the first place. But, uh, George George didn't turn him down. I like that he turned it back on him and said, "Okay, that's a tough question, but tell me, you know, answered the question if you're in a position like what what do you think it could be used for if you're going to ask that?" Like, now again, I love them, but I think they totally blew the assignment there. And they pitched Josh and Scott, I love them. They pitched like well it could something about making loser kid stuff and then they mentioned and then they mentioned pinquest and I'm like no what are you doing? Oh you were right there. You had the Oh you were right there. You had the opportunity and you blew it and yeah. So after that if I was George I'd be like so that's the reason it would be a no. But uh so it's not a no. He said it's not a no. so it's not a no. He said it's not a no. No. Well I think he was just being No. Well I think he was just being polite. Here's the here's the thing. Like if Stern was doing what Multimorphic did if Stern was doing what Multimorphic did and had third-party people making games on the platform, there could be a value there to be able to build achievements and stuff. But short of selling insider connected kits to other manufacturers. So that hey JJP would you like to have insider connected uh to replace your whatever that what was the thing they were using that before there was that that score sharing scorbit. Yeah. Basically as a competitor to score and be like all right we're going to we're going to license this out and and let people do it. But it's like that's not their model. They don't sell accessories to other competitors and they don't let third party entities design games in a way where it wouldn't already have a coder at Stern putting the stuff in for connected like you know they you like how Dennis Nordman did the development for Alvivra House of horrors but Stern's programmers are who built all the achievements and stuff in insider connect. I there's just nothing. What I think you would more likely see is maybe people could reach out to Stern. This might be what the Zack Mini CEO challenge would be like. You know what? Instead of instead of You know what? Instead of instead of promoting the next game, why can't there just be regular ads for like Pepsi showing on this stuff? Okay. I like I I don't mind that. You Okay. I like I I don't mind that. You ever seen an NBA game? Now they got patches all over them like a car. Sure. Yeah. Branding uh you know uh Sure. Yeah. Branding uh you know uh offering offering sponsorship and licensing and advertising really advertising I feel uh options there. But again, it's not so much opening it up through API. That's really just using it as a platform in a broader way other than, hey, you know what? Let's try and sell a $7,000 game to someone with this screen because I bet you they've made all of zero sales based off of doing that. It's just something you to be, you know, entertaining while while the game's in game over mode. As George Gomez's successor, I'll say As George Gomez's successor, I'll say this.