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Ep. 104: Appetite for Pinball

This Flippin' Podcast·podcast_episode·21m 10s·analyzed·Oct 2, 2020
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Guns N' Roses pinball reveal prep: designer, code team, leaked layout analysis, pricing rumors.

Summary

Tommy from This Flippin' Podcast discusses the anticipated October 5th, 2020 unveiling of Jersey Jack Pinball's Guns N' Roses machine, designed by Eric Meunier with Keith Johnson as lead coder. The episode covers confirmed details (designer, coding team, Pirates of the Caribbean lineage), playfield layout analysis from leaked whitewood images, and community speculation about features, pricing, artwork, and a rumored revolutionary technology. Tommy contextualizes the game's significance within the 2020 pinball landscape and shares personal connections to the band and its music.

Key Claims

  • Eric Meunier is the designer of Guns N' Roses; this is his second title with Jersey Jack Pinball

    high confidence · Tommy states directly; corroborated by mention of Meunier's first game being Pirates of the Caribbean

  • Keith Johnson is the lead coder on Guns N' Roses and had six other coders on the team

    high confidence · Tommy cites Keith Johnson's public statement about leading the coding team for the next Jersey Jack game

  • Slash from Guns N' Roses confirmed in a July 2019 interview that a new Guns N' Roses pinball machine was coming

    high confidence · Tommy states this as confirmed fact from Slash's interview

  • Slash was one of the first people to get the Wizard of Oz pinball machine from Jersey Jack approximately 7-8 years ago

    medium confidence · Tommy mentions this as established fact, though dates it vaguely ('7 or 8 years ago')

  • A lawsuit existed over the likeness of a temporary Guns N' Roses band member used on the Data East Guns N' Roses pinball machine from the mid-1990s

    medium confidence · Tommy states he 'just learned' this and presents it as factual, but does not provide sources

  • Guns N' Roses had a massively successful world tour that ended in 2019 and made roughly half a billion dollars

    medium confidence · Tommy asserts this figure casually; band financial data is verifiable but not cited

  • Rumor: Guns N' Roses pricing will match Wonka, which was approximately $7,500 / $9,500 / $12,500 for standard/LE/Collector editions

    medium confidence · Tommy attributes to 'rumors I've read' but does not cite source forums or individuals

  • Rumor: Guns N' Roses could be priced cheaper due to Jersey Jack's centralized production in Chicago versus East Coast facilities

    low confidence · Tommy states 'I've also heard rumors' without source attribution; speculative

Notable Quotes

  • “Welcome to the jungle that is the pinball industry in 2020.”

    Tommy@ 0:09 — Framing device for discussing Guns N' Roses as the potential new dominant game in the market

  • “Keith Johnson and Eric have teamed up again, and they are the ones responsible for bringing Guns N' Roses to us.”

    Tommy@ 2:54 — Confirms the core design and coding team for the announced game

  • “Slash is probably a big motivator for this game being made as he is himself a pinball enthusiast.”

    Tommy@ 6:50 — Indicates artist involvement in and enthusiasm for the project

  • “Pirates of the Caribbean is like what five or six movie series they had a lot of material to pull from to make that a really deep game.”

    Tommy@ 5:22 — Contextualizes the challenge Guns N' Roses faces in designing deep code with limited source material

  • “If they can release this title at a $7,000 price tag, now you have my ear.”

    Tommy@ 14:41 — Expresses the community's price sensitivity and positioning relative to Stern offerings

  • “New Pinball Machining Day is always like Christmas for those of us in the hobby.”

    Tommy@ 15:34 — Reflects the emotional significance of major game unveilings in the community

  • “I just have trouble justifying the money...but there's appeal to guns and roses here in lafayette.”

    Tommy@ 17:01 — Balances the appeal of licensed IP against the cost barrier for operators and collectors

  • “It also sort of marks the completion of the sophomore efforts from this new generation of pinball designers.”

Entities

TommypersonEric MeunierpersonKeith JohnsonpersonSlashpersonAxel RosepersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Jersey Jack Pinball Guns N' Roses official unveiling scheduled for Monday, October 5, 2020

    high · Tommy states 'we expect on monday october 5th here to see the full unveiling of guns and roses'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Guns N' Roses expected to follow Jersey Jack's three-tier pricing model (Standard/LE/Collector editions) with rumored price matching to Willy Wonka ($7.5k/$9.5k/$12.5k) or potentially lower due to Chicago production centralization

    medium · Tommy states 'rumor i've read is price matching to wonka' and discusses possibility of $7,000 entry price due to Chicago facility

  • ?

    design_innovation: Jersey Jack has hinted at unspecified revolutionary technology in Guns N' Roses, potentially internet-connected head-to-head play, Twitch streaming integration, or online leaderboards

    medium · Tommy states Jersey Jack 'bragged or advertised mentioned having some sort of revolutionary technology' but notes uncertainty: 'what we don't know though is what this piece of tech is'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Guns N' Roses coding team faces challenge in achieving deep game mechanics with limited source material (5-6 band members, 5-6 studio albums) compared to Pirates of the Caribbean (23-24 selectable characters from six film series)

    high · Tommy analyzes: 'guns and roses is a band i think you've got like what five six dudes' vs 'pirates of the caribbean is like what five or six movie series they had a lot of material'

  • ?

    leak_detection: Jersey Jack released a photo of Eric Meunier holding a C&C whitewood playfield in reverse; Pinside community immediately analyzed and rotated images to speculate on playfield features including upper playfield, scoop/saucer in center, three pop bumpers, rollover lanes, and possible subway mechanism

Topics

Guns N' Roses pinball game announcement and unveilingprimaryGame design and code depth comparisonprimaryPlayfield layout speculation and analysisprimaryPricing strategy and market positioningprimaryJersey Jack Pinball company strategy and technologyprimary2020 pinball market dynamics and competitionsecondaryNew generation of pinball designerssecondaryOperator location viability and music IP appealsecondary

Sentiment

positive(0.72)— Tommy is enthusiastic about the Guns N' Roses announcement and Eric Meunier's career milestone, but tempered by pricing concerns and uncertainty about artwork and revolutionary features. Mixed feelings about justifying the cost for his location despite strong personal connection to the band's music.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.063

0:00
Hey everybody, this is Tommy from This Flippin' Podcast. I'm bringing you episode 104, Appetite for Pinball. We are talking Jersey Jack Pinball and Guns N' Roses. Welcome to the jungle that is the pinball industry in 2020. Just a month ago, we saw the unveiling of Avengers Infinity Quest from Stern Pinball, and it's basically claiming the throne as Mufasa right now, the king of the jungle. and last week we seemingly saw deep root pinball act as the injured gazelle that was gobbled up by 2020 the pinball industry uh essentially everyone very disappointing for what they tried to show hopefully you know better luck to them in the future and at this point we might be looking at just quite possibly the new ruler of everything that the light touches in 2020 as we enter into the holiday shopping season as pinballers who hopefully still have a little bit of money left to add to their collections to add to their locations look to drop some big bucks with jersey jack as we expect on monday october 5th here to see the full unveiling of guns and roses so basically the question becomes is this going to be a sweet pin oh mine am i going to want to add this to my collection will it have me feeling like i'm living in paradise city or is this game going to be as bad as a cold november rain is that enough guns and roses references for you guys i hope so because only time will tell uh we're going to talk about some of the rumors about this game we're going to talk about some of the things that we do already know things we've seen jersey jack has been teasing this for weeks at this point and kind of what our expectations are i guess my expectations are for where this game is going to land in the industry or in its impact on the industry over the next year or potentially longer at this point but again this is tommy you're listening to this welcome podcast episode 104 appetite for pinball so let's dig right into it what do we know right now about guns and roses well the designer is eric muneer uh this is his second title, both with Jersey Jack Pinball. Eric is a lifelong pinball enthusiast, and although this is only his second game, his first game is Jersey Jack Pinball's Pirates of the Caribbean. That title is really interesting in where it has sort of landed in the pinball hemisphere.
2:36
It's really, really highly regarded, especially by competitive players because of all the different choices that the game presents to the player. as how you work through it. A lot of that has to do with the coder of Pirates of the Caribbean, Keith Johnson. And we do know at this point, we have good news for you, Keith Johnson and Eric have teamed up again, and they are the ones responsible for bringing Guns N' Roses to us. Keith has publicly stated that he is the lead coder on whatever the next game might be from Jersey Jack Pinball, but he was not alone. He said the team had six other coders on it. I love to hear that, and I think it's just the reality of what's necessary for a game coming from Jersey Jack.

Jersey Jack has hinted at having some sort of revolutionary technology in Guns N' Roses, possibly internet-connected head-to-head play or integrated Twitch streaming

medium confidence · Tommy cites Jersey Jack's bragging about revolutionary tech but notes uncertainty about specifics

  • Axel Rose is from Lafayette, Indiana and attended the high school where Tommy taught; he was known for being stuffed in a locker at that school

    medium confidence · Tommy shares this as personal local knowledge; specific claim about locker incident is anecdotal

    • Tommy@ 18:29 — Positions Guns N' Roses within the broader context of designer generational shifts across major manufacturers

    Deep Root Pinball
    company
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Willy Wonkagame
    Data East Guns N' Rosesgame
    Avengers Infinity Questgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Metallicagame
    LED Zeppelingame
    Pinsideorganization
    Appetite for Destructionproduct
    P3company
    This Flippin' Podcastorganization

    high · Tommy states 'This week they released a shot of Eric holding up a C&C playfield, Whitewood, in reverse and very quickly those on Pinside took the time to spin that image around'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Rumor that Guns N' Roses will feature multiball-heavy gameplay similar to Pirates of the Caribbean's wall-type ball stacking mechanics

    medium · Tommy states 'another rumor that i did read is that the game will be multi-ball heavy uh playing pirates of the caribbean that wouldn't really surprise me'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Community speculation on potential features includes: gun mechanism shooting across playfield, spinning record disc, Adams Family bookcase-style mechanism, bash toy, ramps with improved aesthetics, magnets, turnaround ramp for ball flow, and rippable spinner

    low · Tommy shares Facebook post responses from community members with feature requests and speculation

  • ?

    product_concern: Tommy expresses concern about artwork package quality, noting Jersey Jack games don't look 'special' and speculates Guns N' Roses will resemble Pirates of the Caribbean's collage-style art rather than distinctive new artwork

    medium · Tommy states 'I strongly suspect, uh, we're going to see something that resembles similar art to what we've seen before' and 'none of them look special'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Guns N' Roses marks completion of sophomore efforts from new generation of pinball designers; Eric Meunier's second game joins Denise's second/third game and Elwin's second/third games across three major companies

    medium · Tommy states 'It also sort of marks the completion of the sophomore efforts from this new generation of pinball designers with Denise and Elwin both having their second and Elwin's case his third game'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Tommy operates a music venue with pinball machines in Lafayette, Indiana; Iron Maiden and Metallica music-themed pins perform well; considering adding Guns N' Roses based on audience demographics and touring band preferences

    high · Tommy states 'I think it would do well at my location because iron maiden's done well metallic has done well uh we are a music venue as well'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Data East's 1994 Guns N' Roses pinball machine involved a lawsuit over the likeness of a temporary band member used on the game; Slash rumored to have heavily influenced that design

    medium · Tommy states 'I just learned there was a lawsuit over the likeness of one of the temporary band members being used on the game' regarding 1990s Data East version

    • 3:20
    Now, when it comes to Pirates, if you guys remember, that game was delayed quite a bit. It eventually did hit production. It was expensive.
    3:30
    And for whatever reason, I don't know if it's ever been publicly stated anywhere, or if anyone does know. Somebody knows, somewhere. But the production run on that game seemed to be cut short. and this has led to a massive increase in the price of that game on the secondary market it's unfortunate for those who wanted the game and missed out on the opportunity to buy it early but that's sort of the reward you get for those who took a chance on this game and if you guys remember the the whole thing with pirates is it went through some reiterations from the official official or initial sorry prototypes that were released where you had a three-way spinning disc which was eventually replaced with a one-way and a few other alterations that were made to the game but that game was a wide body it had what upper play field that moved on the right side the ship you shot into so a cannon mag two flippers down low one up top so you're looking at like a five flipper game upper play field subways spinning discs spinners, up posts, multiple saucers, a treasure chest. It was packed. And I would expect something, honestly, pretty similar coming on Guns N' Roses. This week they released a shot of Eric holding up a C&C playfield, Whitewood, in reverse and very quickly those on Pinside took the time to spin that image around and start giving us an idea of what some of the things were we might potentially see on the game. So that's what we have as far as layout. As far as code, I expect something very deep, which is going to be kind of interesting because Guns N' Roses, although they are a very successful band they haven put out a ton of stuff compared to some other bands that have had pinball machines made after them and additionally when you you know you look at this team of designers on this game between eric and keith uh pirates of the caribbean is like what five or six movie series they had a lot of material to pull from to make that a really deep game a lot of characters i think you can choose from 23 or 24 characters when you start that game well guns and roses is a band i think you've got like what five six dudes you know over time some of the members have switched in and out so that leaves you there now as far as albums go i think we've only got like five or six albums from these guys and realistically you know the main things they're known for all came out between like 87 and 92 something like that um that being said they just had a massively successful world tour that ended in 2019 and like half a billion dollars and you know if they were coming here locally to indiana for some reason and i had the opportunity to go and see him i would totally go see him so there is that uh and keith johnson you know the way his brain works as far as coding a pinball machine i think he's going to manage to make this game still very deep and that's kind of what drudgy jack's known for uh and it'll be a little bit of a change of pace from wonka which wasn't as deep for them and as far as you know why we're so certain or why this seems to be everything pointing towards guns and roses is slash himself from the band confirmed that a new guns and roses pinball machine was coming as far back as july 2019 he mentioned it during an interview and slash is probably a big motivator for this game being made as he is himself a pinball enthusiast he was one of the very first people to get the wizard of oz pinball machine from Jersey Jack way back like 8 years ago now 7 or 8 years ago so he's been on board with the company for quite some time and just as a fan of pinball himself it makes sense that he would want to have some involvement with the design process of some things he'd like to see in the game he was rumored to have heavily been influential in the design process for the Data East Guns N' Roses pinball machine that came out in the mid 90's which I just learned there was a lawsuit over the likeness of one of the temporary band members being used on the game which is pretty interesting so those are honestly really the only things that we do know at this point in time um for sure because jersey jack credit to them has done an amazing job of keeping most of the information about this title under wraps there haven't been leaks um other than what the theme is but as far as like what all is included i have not heard a ton of stuff so that's pretty cool honestly but that's just how it goes now as we uh continue to work kind of down our list here some of the rumors for this title again an upper play field maybe that's going to be eric's thing i don't know but if you take a look at how the whitewood play field is that they have shown at this point in time it certainly appears there is room on the back left side for a pretty large upper play field. What we can see on the whitewood itself, that part, there appears to be at least three cutouts right now for flippers. Your traditional Italian bottom two flipper position and then a right upper flipper about midway up the play field and it appears from some creative sketch work done by some different pensiders that um that there's likely a shot underneath that upper right flipper back into the shooter lane the shooter lane a la star trek was many other games in the past but that appears that's going to be something there uh we can definitely see the cutouts there's three pop bumpers those are in the back almost Center, probably in your traditional triangular positioning on the playfield. A couple rollover lanes right above that. Right in the middle, there is a cutout, which I have to assume is for some sort of a scoop or saucer or vertical up kicker.
    9:31
    The original Guns N' Roses had something very similar. so I'm intrigued to see if they're sort of paying tribute to that initial design from back in the day or if it's going to be something kind of surprising and used in a unique way but there appears to be a cutout in the play field there because of that cutout and the fact that we do have an upper play field and the ball is going to have to exit some way shape or form from that upper play field I am hypothesizing that there could be a subway that takes the ball not just from the upper playfield back to your regular playfield, but actually below it. So you drain from the upper playfield into a subway, and that ball is then kicked out at that space in the middle of the playfield. So that could be really interesting to sort of see what happens with that. Looking at the inserts that are on the game, we've seen a couple things that have come over from Willy Wonka. Jersey Jack seems to be using rectangular inserts right around the middle of the playfield above the flippers most likely indicating a mode based game that what i would assume and it again does appear to be similar in regards to how many modes there could be to wonka but that being said i would expect something a little bit deeper so who knows uh the other feature that people recognize immediately from wonka is that game used a ton of these tiny little inserts like the size of the end of a pencil maybe even smaller than that all over the place around candy and stuff for all sorts of neat lighting effects i know specifically on wonka they indicate at times when certain magnets are active and that could be an indicator of something along the same lines being used on gnr i did have one friend who said they suspect there could be artwork for a map there of the globe demonstrating those lights being like cities or locations that the band would play at on tour as the way through advancing through the game you know you got to go to a city you got to hit a shot to make the show you got to hit a shot to play good at the show or something like that who knows that's just complete speculation about how those inserts could be used in the game but it is something that's very interesting adds a lot of little light show features to the game and potentially some sort of indicator of progress or success as you're playing through the game another rumor that i did read is that the game will be multi-ball heavy uh playing pirates of the caribbean that wouldn't really surprise me as that game was all about to me at least i know there's all sorts of nuances to that code i get that trust me but unless you have spent a ton of time on that game um and can know those nuances that game was all about stacking wall-type balls. So I wouldn't be surprised if we do something similar on Guns N' Roses.
    12:25
    Some of the things that we don't know, and quite frankly there's more that we don't know about this title than things that we do know, is, in my opinion, one of the big questions is the artwork.
    12:39
    I don't think there's any Jersey Jack game out there that looks bad at all. like they don't look bad but none of them look special um i mean sure they look special in the regards that they have the large back box lcd and the fact that they are full rgb leds like they stand out for that but i'm just specifically referencing the artwork packages that have been on the machines they just don't leap out to me as like that's amazing pinball art i'm like yeah they look good for what they are and that sort of thing so i'm curious as to what the artwork will look like for GNR. So I, I strongly suspect, uh, we're going to see something that resembles similar art to what we've seen before. Um, probably very similar to Pirates of the Caribbean. That's sort of a not Photoshopped, but looks Photoshopped type collage artwork. That's, that's what I suspect. I just haven't heard of Jersey Jack bringing on any artists specifically. Um, that being said, I looked at some Guns N' Roses fan art and there's some cool stuff out there. there's a lot of people that could have been brought in who knows just not something i'm expecting but no idea what the game is going to look like um we can assume they will stick with their uh sort of premium what do they call them premium le and collectors or standard le and collector's editions like three three different levels of the game um the rumor i've read is price matching to wonka and if that's the case it would be roughly 7500 9500 12 500 again my my biggest knock on these jp games is this pricing uh that they use and again i understand you're getting a really impressive piece of equipment i'm not saying the price isn't justified i'm just saying it's really hard for me to justify spending the money on these games uh so who knows what that'll be i've also heard rumors that they're going to come out cheaper because they've now centralized production into chicago better for shipping prices and easier production facility to have and lowering the cost versus east coast real estate that would be amazing. If they can release this title at a $7,000 price tag, now you have my ear. Because at that point, you're not that much over what Astern is charging at this point for their low-end model. So, we'll see.
    14:54
    The reveal is Monday, October 5th. You guys will have all weekend to listen to this before that actually takes place. I haven't seen an exact time. It's probably out there, but I just haven't paid attention to it. My question is, how is this game going to be revealed? Are we going to see an edited video package? Are we going to have simultaneous podcasts released, internet articles released, etc.? Or are we going to get, hey, here's the game, we're streaming it. Here it is. Watch us play this game. I don't know exactly how the reveal is taking place, but it is Monday, October 5th. So mark your calendars, get ready to enjoy Monday. New Pinball Machining Day is always like Christmas for those of us in the hobby. and we just love that. And now here's like the biggest thing that we don't know but Jersey Jack themselves have hinted at. Basically they've bragged or advertised mentioned having some sort of revolutionary technology At this point like they changed the game for what pinball is right now with Wizard of Oz they really did that that is a landmark game in the history of pinball and what it made other pinball manufacturers do to catch up what we don't know though is what this piece of tech is the only thing that really leaps out to me is it has to be internet connected device like playing head-to-head over the internet something along those lines potentially like i know because p3 has gotten out built-in twitch streaming integration it could be something along those lines as well but i'm really hoping it's for some sort of integrated head-to-head play or at least if nothing else internet high scoreboards for the game so that's what we don't know um as far as what this game means to me like look i always have fun playing jjp games they're a ton of fun um but i just have trouble justifying the money axel rose is actually from lafayette indiana where i live i taught at the high school he went to before he dropped out he was best known for being the kid on the cross country team who got stuffed in a locker at that school but he obviously went on to have become quite successful with his passion so that's awesome but there's appeal to guns and roses here in lafayette um as far as they go as a band Appetite for Destruction was one of the only games that I or the only albums that we had in the wrestling room the entire time I was in high school so for like four years I spent you know multiple hours a week listening to that whole album and it resonates with me it's a very fond time of my life that I look back on and that that was like the soundtrack to many hours of hard work and struggling and it's just really good album there's good songs on there I mean it's reality if you've been hearing some of the instrumentals throughout this episode you probably recognize that um i think it would do well at my location because iron maiden's done well metallic has done well uh we are a music venue as well and many of the bands that play would fall into this rock and roll hard rock punk rock category that sort of stuff they're not you know the same as what guns and roses were but they're similar music genres that are performed there and the bands tend to appreciate them so you know i'm very intrigued by it i don't think i'm gonna run out and buy it right away but pending stern's unveiling of led zeppelin later this year and what the pricing is on that i wouldn't mind adding another music pin to my location specifically because of the type of people that hang out at my location so it could work out for me what i'm really hoping for though i just want to see a smooth release for eric and jersey jack pinball every time i've seen that dude talk about pinball he's just been incredibly nice kind and he's clearly really passionate it also sort of marks the completion of the sophomore efforts from this new generation of pinball designers with Denise and Elwin both having their second and Elwin's case his third game out there already Eric will now have his second one and realistically with one of these designers at each of the three major pinball companies representing this new era of pinball it's really cool to see now we'll be able to kind of compare all of their games go I posted on our Facebook page earlier today as far as like what some people would like to see in the game and I'm just going to run through that very quickly here before we exit but uh Eric Wartenberg would love a gun mechanism that shoots across the playfield and crashes into a stage the stage upper playfield has been rumored for quite some time uh my theory is why not have a gun shoot at a rose or some sort um something that rises out of the playfield from Jeff Wilson there's a very large circular area that could potentially be a spinning disc. Many people are guessing it's going to be a record there. I'm suspecting something more like the Adams family bookcase mechanism, perhaps. We'll see.
    19:39
    Somebody wants the machine to only play Chinese Democracy, which is a terrible idea. Daniel McDonald, a one-in-a-million bash toy. GNR ramps this time that actually look good. Axel's bashable face style. and good old Brandon Pennington chimes in with just a different band. So those are some of the things. I know I emailed a few other friends as well.
    20:02
    Magnets is a big request. Things that interact with the ball without physically touching it. Those always appeal to people and impress those casual people who walk up and see the ball doing something like that. Pricing being lower is another huge thing.
    20:19
    That's something that a lot of people watch. would like to see on all of the Jersey Jack games. And a turnaround ramp of some sort that keeps the ball flowing has been another request from a friend of mine named John Hawksby. He doesn't want to hear Welcome to the Jungle the entire time and a great rippable spinner, which I can totally see tying well into some of the shots and some of the music that can be featured in this game. But as I'm saying all of this, my lunch period is wrapping up. we are going to uh end this episode look forward to monday where we see the actual machine and we'll come back sometime next week and talk about the unveiling and what our impressions are of the game bye see you guys later