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The Pinball Show Ep 111: Bridging The Pinball Gaps

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 22m·held·Aug 29, 2022
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

The The Pinball Show discusses industry gaps, Stern's digital dominance, and Godzilla troubleshooting.

Summary

Episode 111 of The The The Pinball Show features hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discussing various "gaps" in pinball (manufacturing, connectivity, scheduling, etc.). Key segments include Dennis's restoration of a Sinbad machine and removal of his above-ground pool, Craig Bobby's top stories covering Stern's Insider Connected Milestone Badges feature, the final Led Zeppelin production run as Steve Ritchie last Stern design before joining Jersey Jack, Toy Story 4 Collector's Edition shipping updates, American Pinball's Magic Girl display at Pinball Expo, and new team-play code for Oktoberfest. The episode explores Stern's digital platform dominance, location-based connectivity as the next frontier, and Dennis's troubleshooting of his Godzilla (Premium/LE) ball-lock issues.

Key Claims

  • Led Zeppelin is the last game he designed for Stern before leaving for Jersey Jack Pinball

    high confidence · Craig Bobby's Top Stories segment; also corroborated by Zach's acknowledgment in discussion following

  • Toy Story 4 Disney PIXAR Toy Story 4 (Collector's Edition) are shipping ahead of schedule; JJP distributor orders ship before direct website orders

    high confidence · Craig Bobby's Top Stories reporting on Jersey Jack Pinball page and company confirmation

  • American Pinball has sponsored enthusiasts to bring a fully coded Magic Girl to Pinball Expo as a one-off playable display

    high confidence · Craig Bobby's Top Stories; article referenced on Nap Arcade

  • Oktoberfest now has team-play code added by American Pinball, similar to Spooky's TNA and Stern's TMNT co-op modes

    high confidence · Craig Bobby reporting on American Pinball post

  • Stern Pinball issued a PSA about phishing scams and fake dealer pages targeting the pinball community

    high confidence · Zach and Dennis discussing Stern's social media PSA; Stern acknowledged this was industry-wide, not just Stern-specific

  • Multimorphic has already implemented cross-location connectivity through Cosmic Cart Racing allowing simultaneous head-to-head play

    high confidence · Dennis discussing Cosmic Cart Racing racing between Alaska and Guam; described as years old technology already in place

  • Godzilla (Premium/LE) has intermittent ball-lock detection failure; ball doesn't lock in building until ball search triggers

    high confidence · Dennis describing his troubleshooting process with Flip N Out Pinball distributor; mentions opto testing

  • Keith Elwin messaged Dennis on Facebook with a suspicion about the cause of Dennis's Godzilla issue based on how he described it on stream

    high confidence · Zach recounting Keith's involvement; Keith and Dennis are not Facebook friends but Keith looked him up to help

Notable Quotes

  • “I'm Gappy Gappy. Pinball is a game of skill.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ Opening — Theme-setting: Episode is centered on discussing various 'gaps' in pinball industry and experience

  • “I don't do restorations. I make projects into players.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Early in episode — Dennis's philosophy: he focuses on making machines playable rather than cosmetically perfect, evident in his Sinbad rebuild

  • “It's brighter than Vintner Avenue at night.”

    Dennis Creasel @ During Sinbad restoration discussion — Humorous description of LED brightness in his restored machine; shows his personality and local reference humor

  • “End of an era.”

    Zach Minney @ Above-ground pool removal segment — Dramatic conclusion to long-running joke/running gag about the Minnie's Above Ground Pool (hot tub); community landmark removal

  • “I'm glad Joel didn't notice it initially, which I'm glad because he probably would have just asked Keith 20 questions about Deadpool, which would have been inappropriate.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Discussing Keith Elwin's appearance on TPN stream — Shows awareness of community eagerness for Deadpool news and sensitivity to not overloading Keith with unrealistic questions

  • “Give us nothing, but take from them everything.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ Post-Craig Bobby segment — Self-deprecating commentary on The Pinball Show's investigative struggles; Craig praised for making entertainment from minimal news

  • “But there's a difference between playing fucking Cosmic Cart Racing racing with a buddy versus playing Deadpool with a buddy. Come on, people.”

    Zach Minney @ Insider Connected connectivity discussion — Zach emphasizing that cross-location play matters more for mainstream popular games with high player volume

  • “I think that's the next big thing for pinball.”

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonCraig BobbypersonKeith ElwinpersonSteve RitchiepersonJoel EngelberthpersonNicole MinneypersonJohn Popadiukperson

Signals

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie departs Stern Pinball for Jersey Jack Pinball after Led Zeppelin completion; represented as significant talent loss for Stern, major gain for JJP

    high · Craig Bobby: 'Steve Ritchie's last designed title with the company before leaving for rival Jersey Jack Pinball'; Zach acknowledges this as major industry news

  • ?

    product_signal: Led Zeppelin enters final production run; marks end of Steve Ritchie's Stern era

    high · Craig Bobby: 'the last production run of Led Zeppelin was shown, making its way down the production line'

  • ?

    product_launch: Stern Insider Connected launches Milestone Badges feature; gamification elements similar to PlayStation/Xbox achievement systems

    high · Craig Bobby reporting on feature; Zach/Dennis discussion of badges tracking daily streaks, days played, games played with profile display

  • $

    market_signal: Jersey Jack Toy Story 4 Collector's Editions shipping ahead of previously communicated schedule

    high · Craig Bobby: 'Toy Story 4 Collector's Editions appear to be shipping ahead of what we reported on our last show'; JJP confirmed distributor orders first, then direct website orders

  • ?

    community_signal: Rise in phishing scams and fake dealer pages targeting pinball community; Stern issued industry-wide PSA

    high · Stern PSA: 'We've been noticing more scam pages and phishing attempts being made around pinball on social media'; Zach noting specific scam pricing (Godzilla Pro at $4,400)

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.246

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:12
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. It's all about them gaps on this week's episode of The Pinball Show. Dennis and I discuss switch gaps, lizard gaps, swim and pool gaps, book gaps, connectivity gaps, seller gaps, manufacturing gaps, gaps in scheduling, convention gaps, training wheels gaps, market gaps, gaps in pinball content. We even got them gaps that come up from below. I'm Gappy Gappy.
0:53
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality.
1:22
Hey, guess what, everybody? It's episode 111 of the Pinball Show. We're your hosts, Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel, coming at you live. Hey, hey, hey. We're not really live. Can I call you Zach Escobar, Manny? Here we go.
1:35
See, I let Dennis know a little behind the scenes. You're never going to let that one go. I got 8,000 jokes. Maybe 800,000. I don't know, Zach. I got a lot of jokes today. I'm feeling good. Make your podcast your chemistry. Dennis, it's been a hell of a week, as it always is for you and I. How have you been? I'm fine. My back's great. My back had a setback the last couple of days. That's unfortunate. I'm sorry to hear that. It's okay. I have had to set forwards. I know we'll talk about one of them. Is it 80s time or what? No, no. One of them involves Godzilla, which we'll talk about here in a little while. And I have finally, quote unquote, finished my Sinbad project I've been working on for a couple months now. Oh, I've seen the post on social media. That thing is looking good. Yeah, I had to take it from a distance because there is playfield wear. And I'd be like, Zach's going to be like, why is the playfield still worn? I'm like, because I don't do restorations. restorations i make projects into players oh so things work yes i got so the you know the board sets in i've changed out all the drop targets got the new pop caps i've changed all the flipper bats all the coil sleeves uh one of the coil stops was inappropriate i've changed that all new flipper springs you know so that thing is playing now did you say did you rebuild the pop-up no the pops were good, just the caps were broken off of them. Oh, those are a pain in the ass to rebuild, aren't they?

Zach Minney @ Discussing simultaneous cross-location play implementation — Prediction: location-based simultaneous play (not just leaderboards) is the next competitive frontier for digital connectivity

  • “Every manufacturer now should have a list of authorized dealers.”

    Zach Minney @ Post-phishing PSA discussion — Practical recommendation for industry security standards; implies not all manufacturers currently maintain dealer verification lists

  • “If you see a Godzilla (Pro) new in the box for $4,400, it's bullshit. You're going to get your money taken from you.”

    Zach Minney @ Phishing scams segment — Concrete example of scam pricing; highlights how inflated discounts are red flags (Pro typically $7-8K+)

    • Steven Bowden
    person
    The Pinball Showcontent_series
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Multimorphiccompany
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    Flip N Out Pinballcompany
    Pinball Expoevent
    Godzillagame
    Deadpoolgame
    Led Zeppelingame
    Toy Story 4game
    Oktoberfestgame
    Magic Girlgame
    Insider Connectedproduct
  • ?

    product_concern: Dennis's Godzilla Premium has intermittent ball-lock detection failures in building mechanism; ball doesn't lock until ball search triggers

    high · Dennis detailed troubleshooting: opto testing passed, repositioning done, but issue persists; Keith Elwin reached out with suspicion about cause

  • ?

    design_innovation: Multimorphic has achieved cross-location simultaneous head-to-head play via Cosmic Kart (years prior); represents advanced connectivity vs. leaderboard-only systems

    high · Dennis: 'you could link them across the internet...Alaska and Guam can play each other. It's head-to-head'; simultaneous play model discussed as technically superior

  • ?

    technology_signal: Stern Insider Connected expanding features and capabilities; positioned as strategic differentiator vs. competitors; Nicole Minney views as industry game-changer long-term

    high · Zach/Dennis discussion; Nicole's belief that platform will 'set Stern even further apart from everybody else in the next year, five years, ten years'

  • ?

    code_update: American Pinball released new Oktoberfest team-play code; mirrors Spooky TNA and Stern TMNT co-op modes

    high · Craig Bobby: 'Steven Bowden recently posted on the American Pinball Facebook page that new code is now up on tap for Oktoberfest, which adds team play'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Pinball Expo (October, Chicago) will host playable Magic Girl display; American Pinball sponsoring; represents public showcase of unreleased/production-failed game

    high · Craig Bobby: 'those attending the Pinball Expo in Chicago this year at the end of October will be able to do just that, as American Pinball has helped sponsor a couple of pinball enthusiasts to bring a fully coded and finished John Papadiuk Magic Girl back to life'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Stern Insider Connected dominance creating concern for smaller manufacturers (American Pinball, Chicago Gaming) about ability to compete on digital platform front; resource constraints limit feasibility

    medium · Zach/Dennis discussing if other manufacturers have fiscal resources to compete; Stern created dedicated department for platform development

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community speculation about Stern's next mystery release remains high; Craig Bobby attempting to solicit information but unsuccessful

    medium · Craig Bobby: 'the tension is almost palpable these days as the pinball world waits with bated breath for any sort of word or announcement from the world's largest pinball manufacturer, Stern Pinball, on what their latest release might be'

    • 3:00
    I have done a few before. It's just because you have to desolder. It's just sort of tedious on those old ones. But it's not hard. But no, the bodies of the pops, I didn't see any damage to them, but the caps were all broken, so they wouldn't stay on. So they were in a coin box. Yeah, they were just brittle. So I changed those out, tightened rubbers and the whole thing, LED'd, so no more burnt out. A lot of socket corrosion, so I had to clean a lot of those up. Do you know that slam-tilt bruise? LED'd. Smart man. That's right. LED'd. It's brighter than Vintner Avenue at night. What LED's did you go with? Oh, Comet. Come on. I know. At this point, it's kind of a standard. I just keep sunlight LEDs in a tackle box. I do see some people with EMs, depending on the theming and the coloring, they might go a warm. but yeah for the most part sunlight's kind of the standard i sell sunlight's just a safe i honestly i don't care what shade of white you throw in i have some laboratory blue not not too i mean i don't if it's all consistent i don't i don't care too much now when i now i've done it before like my firepower where the cooler colors i have used the kind of that blue white and then in the warmer colors i've used the warm white this was before the sunlights were out okay And so I've done that to let it pop, you know, your favorite thing. Colors have to pop. So I've done that. But no, I mean, if I could do it all in just a white, that's fine. But sunlight is the safest choice for any of the colors. Did you go rubber or did you go silicone? Titan silicone. Oh, man. I didn't know they made regular rubbers. All Titan. And those bats were pretty brittle, so I replaced all those bats. With the metal ones?
    4:45
    No. I didn't. Because I'm not going to turn Sinbad into Toy Story 4. Oh, no. We'll get to that, too. Damn it. It's still in my garage. I've got to get rid of a game to put it into the main lineup. I've got to get rid of a game as good as you get rid of an above-ground pool. What are you going to get rid of? I haven't decided yet. The most logical one would probably be Firepower. That's the Buck Rogers.
    5:08
    Well, the Buck Rogers has had its back glass restored, so I kind of don't want to. Oh, that's pretty good. I still need to, like, I want to prop it up more. I have somewhere in this house, I have leg levelers that are extended to put on the back. I can't find them because that game is too slow. It's too floaty. I got to jack it up well beyond spec. Yeah, I might need to stick a 2x4 under that. So I thought about getting rid of Firepower just because I've had it for so, so long. You've played that so much, yeah. Yeah, and I don't play it much anymore. And it's of the same basic era. I was saying about the 78 game and Firepower is just a couple years newer. So that's kind of where I'm at, where I'm thinking. I'll do, because I think Simbad should go ahead and go in the main lineup. It will make me somewhat Gottlieb heavy in the room. I mean, my only Williams game is Firepower. I would say like a year or two ago, people always kind of put that on you. They said that you have this love for Gottlieb, which wasn't totally true, but now you're falling into that stereotype. They were accessible projects. So, I mean, a lot of people get rid of Gottliebs. a lot of times they weren't too badly worn because they weren't routed that hard, maybe because they broke. And so, yeah, because there was a time I had, at the same time, I think I had Buck Rogers, Super Orbit, and Jaxta Open and Hoops, and they were all some flavor of Gottlieb, which is a lot. That is a lot. But Super Orbit's gone. Jaxta Open's gone. A lot of your games are gone. You alluded to it earlier. A lot of our fans and listeners, my family, friends, when they come over to my home now, there will be something gone on my property as well. It's going to sadden a lot of you listeners to hear this, but I want you to sit down, take a breath, and just know it's in a better place. Gone is the Minnie's Above Ground Pool. A.K.A. the hot tub. I almost had to contact the Evansville Historical Society and let them know that we're getting rid of a landmark. It's gone. Do landmarks need permits, Zach? Or fencing?
    7:15
    You have to have a fence for an above-ground pool. You can't just walk into it. Well, it depends. If there was a deck, what would you... Here's a question for you. What if there was a deck around the above-ground pool? Well, does the access entrance points to the deck, are they capable of being locked? So it's gone, Zach. The above-ground pool is gone. It's out. Why? It's just a big old ring of sand now. Now it's a ring of sadness. Ring of sadness. Man, I was getting T-shirts made and everything. We were going to. People were taking selfies by it without your knowledge. I think people came and picked it up just because they knew it was a well-known pool. And we were giving it to them for free. You should have given it away on stream. We could have done that. That was caveats. It almost ended my life putting this thing up. So if you want it, disassemble it, take it away, you can have it. That's cool. Well, so if I want to take it – well, I mean, obviously, it's gone now. It's too late for me. But if I wanted to take it away, should I just bring my one SUV? Yeah, it was – the individuals picking it up did – it made me giggle because they pulled in in, like, a small Nissan Rogue or something. And I'm like, what the hell is that going to do? And they got there, and they're like, oh, shit, I got to get, like, a – I got a ratchet and everything. They were picking up a child's waiting pool or what? It was good entertainment for the afternoon. It took them about five hours to do. After hour three, then a couple more vehicles showed up to stuff things. And Nicole, pleasure her. She was like, we were watching. She's making them lemonade. We weren't eating popcorn, but she was like, do you think maybe we should at least lend them a power drill or something?
    8:59
    Because they had just by hand, man, cranking each screw by hand, taking that thing apart. God bless them. Wow. I was like, well, they deserved it more than we do. They got a free pull out of it. Absolutely. Just cost labor. They didn't invite us, though, to swim there, so whatever. I see how it is. Well, I don't know if it's put together yet. I mean, after as long of an ordeal as that would have been, they might have been like, you know what? I need like a week or two off. Yeah, joke's on me. They took it down to the scrapyard and sold the metal and made some money. It was made out of pure copper. Oh, man. It's gone, Dennis. Uh-huh. End of an era. I still have my hot tub.
    9:41
    Coincidentally enough, you were streaming this last week with Joel Engelberth and the gang from TPN, and I was watching as I sat naked in my hot tub. You thought that was a joke. I was being serious. I didn't think anything of it was true or not. I was being serious. I was sitting there lounging and bubbling and listening to you guys talk about fucking metal flippers. It was enthralling.
    10:04
    That was not my suggestion. I think I might have turned it off and watched House of Dragon on HBO. I might have said, which was pretty good. I liked that first episode. I think I might have said to Joel before we started that we had talked about this on a prior stream I had been on, and I wasn't sure if we needed to invest more time in it. But it's his show, and he clearly felt that more time was needed. He just invited me. He's just like, that day. I can tell when he's desperate because I get a message day of. Day of message. Dennis, can you do this stream on? I'm like, he starts late enough that usually it's, yeah, I could. I do love those streams, though. They're a lot of fun. You know, they get a lot more people than I expect to watch live. It's sort of weird. A lot of people come in for those. And, like, industry people. I'm like, I didn't know industry people even wanted to consume content from a bunch of nobodies. Yeah, speaking of, you were describing some of the issues you were having in Godzilla. We'll talk about here in a bit. But the one and only Keith Elwin chimed in to help and answer one of your inquiries. That was cool. It was interesting. Actually, I had seen the message come through YouTube. I'm glad Joel didn't notice it initially, which I'm glad because he probably would have just asked Keith 20 questions about Deadpool, which would have been inappropriate. But he had sent me a message Keith had on Facebook. We're not Facebook friends. He looked me up and sent me a message because he had a suspicion about what my issue was based off of how I described it on the stream. And you have been plagued with me trying to help me resolve this issue as my distributor. You know, the fucking goat comes in. This is foreshadowing to a future story here in the episode. But the goat comes in, and instead of just plunging and walking off, he finished the job.
    11:56
    Ouch. I see a mystery castle in your future. Mike from Pinballers was on the stream, as was our very own top stories correspondent for the Pinball Show, Craig Bobby. What has Craig got for us this week, Zach? What do you got, Craig? Hello and welcome to the Pinball Show's Top Stories. I'm Craig Bobby. The tension is almost palpable these days as the pinball world waits with bated breath for any sort of word or announcement from the world's largest pinball manufacturer, Stern Pinball, on what their latest release might be. I can tell you, and I'm ashamed to admit, Zach and Dennis, that I've been offering myself up in ways that are not befitting of a reporter looking for the slightest grain or morsel of information about Stern's latest release. But sadly, to no avail. Will Stern release their new mystery title this coming week? God, I hope so. But we shall have to wait and see. I can report, though, that the last production run of Led Zeppelin was shown, making its way down the production line as Stern bids farewell to Steve Ritchie's last designed title with the company before leaving for rival Jersey Jack Pinball. Stern Pinball also continues to expand its award-winning Insider Connected platform this past week, with some new features to enjoy at home or on location with the launching of their Milestone badges. These badges, similar to what can be seen on popular video game platforms such as PlayStation, Xbox, or Nintendo Switch, which track daily streaks, days played, and games played. Once earned, these badges will display on your Insider Connected profile. And speaking of good news, Toy Story 4 Collector's Editions appear to be shipping ahead of what we reported on our last show, as the Jersey Jack Facebook page showed dozens of Toy Story 4s going out to dealers and customers around the world this past week. Jersey Jack also confirmed to eager customers that JJP Collectors Edition orders placed through distributors will ship first, followed by orders placed directly through the Jersey Jack website once those distributor orders have been fulfilled. Ever wondered what one of those modern machines that never made it to full production might actually play like if they were actually produced? Well, those attending the Pinball Expo in Chicago this year at the end of October will be able to do just that, as American Pinball has helped sponsor a couple of pinball enthusiasts to bring a fully coded and finished John Papaduke Magic Girl back to life in a one-off Expo display for the public to marvel, dream about, and actually play. Say what? The game, which was first released by the now-debunked Zidware Pinball over five years ago, continues to be very controversial in the pinball community for bilking people from their hard-earned dollars and for other reasons that are too complicated to go into in this report, but I encourage you to read more about the history of the game and the people that have now brought one of these games back to life in a very well-written article that can be found on the king of all pinball news sites, Nap Arcade. And speaking of American pinball, don't look now, all of you Oktoberfest fans, but Steve Bowden recently posted on the American Pinball Facebook page that new code is now up on tap for Oktoberfest, which adds team play to the Oktoberfest code. Say what? This very popular feature will play much like co-op mode seen on both Spooky's Total and Nuclear Annihilation and Stern's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which allow two players to play as a team to combine their scores and achievements to advance through the game. well that's all for this week as we continue to wait for word on stern's next release for the pinball show i'm craig bobby catch you on the flip side well thanks craig for trying to make some uh gold out of dung that's right you sent me his audio before we started recording and i thought that's very atypical actually so i I thought there was like some super important reveal, and I listened to it all, and I'm like, Zach, what is this? Is this Craig hoping to finally know what's going on at Stern? Craig's twiddling his thumbs like we are over here at the Pinball Show. Not a lot of news, but the one thing that I do appreciate and love and respect about that guy, he can take nothing and still make it entertaining. Craig is one of the best. That should be our motto for this show.
    16:38
    Give us nothing, but take from them everything. Jumping off of what he spoke about, Stern Pinball this week in the news, they have a new feature for their Insider Connected system. They launched it. It's called Milestone Badges. It's a pretty novel, interesting concept. They continue to really fill out this, I guess, accessory platform they're using. But it's a way to track daily streaks or days played in unison. And the games you've played. But the badges will display on your Insider Connected profile. If you want to check out more, Stern Pinball did a short promo video visually to kind of show you how it works. But again, by itself, you know, it's cool. I like the concept. I like the idea. But the bigger story here for me, Dennis, is just consistently and continually adding to Insider Connected, which, like I've said before, my wife, Nicole, thinks this is kind of a game changer for pinball. And she thinks that the platform they're using versus other platforms maybe used in the industry is what is going to just continue to set Stern even further apart from everybody else in the next year, five years, ten years. Well, I remember when Gary Stern was on that Walking the Hot Dog podcast or whatever it was called. I don't remember the name of it. Walking the Hot Dog? Yeah, the Chicago one. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. I mean, he was really emphasizing their commitment on Insider Connected. And this, yeah, the milestone badge just kind of reminds me of forum awards. A lot of online forums use things like this. Though I do hope, I didn't see it in the initial listing, but I do hope they add one that's like a get some sunshine where you actually like don't play any games for a month or something. Not just this play every day, play every day. You need to have one that's like anti-addiction. Well, that usually comes once you find big success in a platform like this. So once they know that they've got you, then they'll sprinkle in some of those good health measures. I'm just waiting. There are going to be people that will be like, honey, we've got to go on vacation. I can't go on vacation. I'm on day 28. I need my 30-day streak. Costa Rica doesn't have any Insider Connected games, damn it. What am I supposed to do? Then they're calling, hey, Bill, can you watch my dog and also log in to my Insider Connected? Just hold in the left flip-fire button for two seconds. It's on home team. You ain't got to give a shit, Bill.
    19:06
    Somebody in a dick. Yeah, I can see that. I do still get the feeling that this is going to be big. Like, this is a big thing. Well, I mean, it aligns very well with what we've seen for a couple generations now of video games. Really since Xbox 360 came out, which I believe was the pioneer in achievements. And then the Steam platform for PCs adopted it. And now, you know, PS3 or excuse me, I think as a PS3 PlayStation, Sony started doing as well. Just people like to get their achievements and trophies. It's it provides new ways to play games is what I've always liked about it. It makes you think about games in a different way. That's what I did in video games. And I think that's what it does with pinball. Do you think if you're a different manufacturer, though, that may not have online connectivity yet, like an American pinball or Chicago gaming company? Doesn't this kind of discourage you? I think it would discourage me if I was with one of those companies and they even uttered in a meeting, hey, I think we're going to try to get some online connectivity going to our future machines. I'd be like, I don't know. At this point, why even dedicate resources? I think it would come down to if it looks like it having an impact on the industry then I could see actually them thinking we got to do it But Stern already controls so much of the industry See that the thing Stern already got so much market share Does this in terms of sales really move the needle I'm not sure that it does. I think maybe it gets people to keep their games longer. Yeah, that's a good point. So that might, like, all of this to me seems to be more along the lines of feeding into the, we want people to buy these games for their homes, and we don't want them to feel like after two months they should be selling it for something else. like we want them to actually feel like you know what these games need to last for a long time and it's just a it's a really different mentality for pinball which was so location oriented and if you're going to keep the games still viable for location play you gotta you gotta figure out another way to get like we can't all turn things into lord of the rings and have 40 minute games so this gives you a new way to to get that going along with you know other features like playing those challenge modes or doing co-op mode and all that that's where what i think this feeds into. So other manufacturers, though, most of them, honestly, probably don't have the fiscal resources to be able to dedicate to develop their own platform. So it's sort of, you know, does this make them turn to ScoreBit? Stern has created their own department for this. Yeah. They have their own directors for this. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work for this. My other question to you, Dennis, would be this. You have no questions. Would you agree stage one of internet connectivity has been showcased by Multimorphic, by Jersey Jack Pinball through Scorbit, Scorbit in general, Stern Pinball. Stern Pinball has won this battle, right?
    22:02
    Yes, but a lot of that comes down again to volume. I don't think... I see what you're saying, but I don't. There are not enough P3s out there for it to substantially move the needle in the hop. I'm just talking about the operating system, the cleanliness, the usability, anything. I think they hit every category as an A. They've nailed this. And my point being, I think we can all agree, Insider Connected, whether you think it's for the bulk of machines it's applicable to or whatnot, I still think it's a clean system. It makes the most sense to me. I think that the next fight or the next Russia versus USA trying to get to the moon, the next thing is who will get connectivity between two different locations playing the same game. That's the next fight. And if another manufacturer or another company like a Scorbit can do that first, maybe they catch up a little bit to the dominance that Stern Insider Connected has become. Well, all right. So I cannot comment on the, I guess, ease of use question. Like I've not done internet setup on a P3, and I've never, ever used Scorbit at all, not even as a player. so I just I have no context to compare it to I've only done Insider Connected in regards to ability to play on two different locations well Multimorphic already does have that that's what the whole Cosmic Cart thing was about so I can play Frank in Alaska yes so I mean if it's about who's going to get that first well that was done years ago so Multimorphic wins that okay so I guess I answered my own question that still won't stop the freight train that is insider connected. No, because, again, the volume of P3s out there just is not, I mean, the whole platform. The whole platform is less than a lot of just a single game of Stardust. Sure, but let's be real. I'm going to piss people off with this. But there's a difference between playing fucking cosmic kart racing with a buddy versus playing Deadpool with a buddy. Come on, people. Sure, they're different games. Of course it's different. Different platform is different. You know what I'm trying to say here. I'm talking about games that a lot of people have. I don't understand what you're thinking. The whole thing with cosmic kart racing is it's a head-to-head game. It's actually racing, like playing Mario Kart. So that's why it makes sense for that game. For Deadpool, what do you need besides universal leaderboards? I thought the multimorphic stuff, you could link them, but I didn't know.
    24:39
    Yeah, you link them across the internet. Yeah, I didn't know that you're – so you're simultaneously playing as a racing thing. Yes. And so because the volume of Cosmic Kart isn't all that substantial, I recall seeing at a time where they would try and coordinate online because I think I saw some posts on Facebook where people would try and say, hey, what time do you want to play? Because it's not like – unlike Mario Kart where there's always so many people always playing that you can always just find a game. There was some coordination because, again, we're talking much smaller volumes when it comes to pinball versus a video game. So, yeah, no, it's designed like Alaska and Guam can play each other. It's head-to-head, and that's the thing. I don't know yet about Stern doing this. What sort of – I mean I guess it would have to be a special mode. Normal pinball games aren't like that, right? It's score-to-score. It's not dropping items. I don't want to play simultaneously. I'm saying, hey, you want to log in? You want to play me, Dennis, in Godzilla? And you say, yeah. And then waiting for a player to start. You start. You play your ball one. As you're playing your ball one, my machine is physically almost reacting, and I see scoreboard. And I might even see your user, like a camera on my LCD screen seeing you play. Once your ball one is up, boom, my ball one, and I get to play. It's basically you playing your friend at your house, but you're not at your house.
    26:07
    Typical playing pinball. All right. You're right. I see what you're saying. Okay. Yeah. I'm not aware of anything like that yet. That's what I picture when I'm picturing playing against friends because that's how I play pinball with friends that are physically in the same place as me. I don't race them. Yeah. Okay. I get it. Huh. I hadn't really thought about that as the direction in terms of that implementation specifically. A lot of people think maybe a head-to-head like, hey, we're going to do a task-based thing, and the first person that gets Godzilla multiball wins, and the computer is going to know that because we're going to start saying that. But no, I'm talking about just playing pinballs, pinballs made to be played kind of thing. That's what I want. I don't know why I went on a tangent there. You seem to feel very passionately about it. Yeah, I think that's the next big thing for pinball. So much so that the popularity of pinball is creating spammers and fishers. Uh-oh. They call them fishers or fishermen. What do they call them when somebody does fishing? Fishing's like trying to get info, I believe. Like trying to get people to give you your password so they can go into your Bank of America and wire all the monies. Don't fuck with fish, man. We're nothing but love. Not that fish. No, definitely not that fish. That fish will never get a pinball machine. That fish don't swim.
    27:30
    Stern Pinball on their social media this last weekend had a PSA. They said the following. We've been noticing more scam pages and phishing attempts being made around pinball on social media. We are making serious efforts to get these pages shut down to protect the entire pinball community. Be incredibly careful when you're interacting with pages you aren't familiar with and never give out your personal information on social media. In the meantime, if you are considering a new purchase, you can do so at our authorized dealer page to ensure that you're talking to the right people. Heart link to buy a game list of dealers. I found it interesting that they did this because this wasn't a stern thing. This was like a, hey, we're the leader in games sold, so we're making an attempt to help the whole industry out by getting rid of some of these pages that are just bullshit and they're just scamming people. Usually Stern sticks to their own stuff, but they're like – Well, it would mostly impact them, though. I imagine Stern, because it's the industry leader in games sold, is often the one that the scams are oriented around. Yes, yeah. That was interesting, and it's a good reminder to everybody. If you see a Godzilla Pro new in the box for $4,400, it's bullshit. You're going to get your money taken from you. Every manufacturer now should have a list of authorized dealers.
    28:50
    I don't know. Spooky might still not, actually. Spooky may still not, actually. Dennis, I want to hear more about your broken-ass Godzilla premium.
    29:00
    That's my healthy Godzilla roar, but he's mending. He had his back surgery. His buck surgery? Yes. His spikes are healed. You were having some issues with the back fuck identifying locks. Intermittently. Very, very intermittently. Yeah. The rhyme or reason to it was nonsensical, sporadic. And I mentioned this on a prior Pinball Show episode, actually, where we briefly discussed it. So I called my distributor, or I messaged my distributor, because I know we don't call in today's era. We text. I do. So I messaged Zach at Flippin' Out Pinball because the way it was happening is I have a Godzilla Premium. So the building lowers into ball lock position. That works fine. The ball would then go down. You drop the ball into the building. It falls down. It rolls to the Vuck. The ball doesn't get ejected back out. until ball search. The problem, of course, with that is if there are not balls already locked, what normally would happen is the building does the whole raise, lower trying to find the lock, but I don't get the ball locked. It comes back to the flipper. So it was getting very frustrating because I was getting cheated out of a lot of earned locks. And so this was impacting things like Monster Zero and stuff because I'm not getting credit for my locks. And I'm ending up draining because I'm not that good of a player.
    30:29
    So anyway, we tried... First thoughts, Optos, right? Yeah, we tried everything. So we did. You had me do the Opto test, break the line of sight with a piece of paper. It's firing fine. You cleaned the Optos. You repositioned them. I cleaned the Optos and reattached them. They were 100% in test, though. Yes, and that's the thing. I would go into ball test, and it would show that the Opto was always triggering when I would drop the ball. Even in the switch test, when I'd pull out the interlock switch so we'd have everything turned on, I could actually duplicate the problem, but not consistently. Like it might take two dozen tries. Everything, maybe the coil. Yeah. They never go bad, but you never know. No, no, the coil's clearly not damaged that we can tell, but we test the coils. We disconnect all of the wiring from the coils and the optos all the way to the node board. You have me disconnect and reconnect everything to node nine. You send me a new node board to put in for node nine. Yep, I install the new node board. Like a transistor on the node board or something. Yep, same problem, though. Intermittent, non-detection, non-launchable, I should say. because it always knows that the ball is there, at least according to test. Didn't we even swap out? Because I was like, we can get clever. We can take that opto and on the same board, locate another opto, swap the positions on that board and see if that new opto is just as flaky. We did not. We talked about it, but we didn't because when I was able to duplicate it in test mode and it was saying Vuck Opto on, we knew the opto read the ball still. so so anyway so that was a code issue maybe right right and i'm thinking okay well because i actually after the tps episode i had people write to me and say i had someone say yeah i've been having this problem but i didn't have this problem until 0.94 came out and i had another person email me say yeah it always to me it seems to happen when i'm on lock two and like they get all unlocked and then lock two wouldn't immediately fire up and they'd have to wait for ball so now when that would happen ball two ends up getting locked so you didn't get cheated but but you still had to wait um and so it's like okay i don't know so anyway we i i'm on i'm invited on the stream uh with joel from joel to be with craig and mike and we're doing the intro and sort of like what what's the last game you played and i mentioned you know i at home godzilla was still the last game i had played but i just i i wasn't i've been trying to break a billion points and i just my will to do it as really diminished because my ball locks just weren't happening. And I'm like, how many times do I have to try and lock the ball just to get one ball lock? It just, it was really pissing me off. And we were reaching out to Stern. And so you had sent a message to Stern to see if this could be deduced. And so that's where back to our intros where you noted Keith was watching that stream. He sent a chat comment just saying, send me a video of the problem. and when I logged into Facebook he had sent me a message saying similar so I sent him the switch test video I had sent you and I'm verbally explaining this is what's going on and so Keith writes me back and he goes okay your switch I think the way he used is it blipped my VUK opto was triggering but it wasn't staying painted broken so what was happening It was hitting the opto, but it wasn't staying on the opto. Talk sexy to me, goat. Yes. So I didn't phrase it like that. I'm just like, so he's like, he's seen this before. He actually had this happen to him when his Vuck got bent. So when he was doing some play field stuff. So anyway, what happens is on the premium and LEs, there's the subway, of course, from where the ball drops down the building and lands in a subway. and then the ball rolls to the Vuck, there can be a gap between the subway and the Vuck. And there is a gap on mine. Yeah. And what happens, so in simple Dennis terms, Keith explained a lot more technically, but is the ball would roll down, hit the Vuck, trigger the opto, but then it bounces back and it rests on that lip, that seam created between the subway and the Vuck. A gap, yeah. Yeah. So now it's no longer breaking the opto. So the opto no longer thinks the ball is there, and the Vuck won't fire until the ball settles on the opto. It takes a little bit. So because of that, the opto doesn't think the ball is there anymore. Ball search initiates, but it's over the Vuck enough, and when the Vuck tries to fire, the ball ends up getting up top. Settling and getting up top, yeah. Yeah. So the solution, his solution was just tape a business card to close the seam. Simple enough. Just put it in the subway. Yeah. So I had some fish paper from my wood rail days. That's like a really thick paper for electrical insulation. Because on the wood rail days, Zach, the flipper buttons were metal, and you would get electrocuted from the leaf switches. So I used fish paper. They even used fish paper in the 90s and shit, too. Oh, okay. I don't ever work on 90s games because I only know Gottlieb crap. So I taped down my fish paper. I did some quick tests because I did that while I was working. So I went back to work. I didn't have any errors. I played the game a bunch yesterday. I played the game this morning. 100% success rate on ball detection. And I figured it would be after going back and looking at your video. I was like, shit, Zach, I should have seen, I don't know. I guess I should have seen that gap and questioned that. But I thought it was elevated to a certain degree where it couldn't settle back on. Right, that it couldn't get back over. They're actually basically level, at least on mine. Yeah, it had to almost be leveled in order to sit back into that gap. And that may just be an installation thing on mine or whatnot. Yeah, likely. Or the other way you could fix it, Keith probably wouldn't agree to this, but it would fix it, is bend that VUC back towards so there's no gap. And that's where, in his case, where he first saw that happen was because his got bent. Bent the other way. Right. So, yeah, if my VUC – now, my VUC to me did not appear bent. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean – Because he's like, you know, it could have been an assembly issue where they – my guess is versus a lot of other people, my gap between the subway and the buck is probably larger than most. But there were other people that had said at least sometimes this was happening to them. So every single person who directly contacted me that I could remember, I've already responded to and let them know this was what I was told. Yeah, this is a fix, yeah. So Keith Elwin, you're a stud. Nicely done. So he fixed it, and I still haven't broken a billion, but just before we started recording, I set my new grand champion score because I'm playing again. Keith Elwin, 20, Zach, zero still. Well, you did your – maybe if I called the bone, I could have been spared all of this, but I didn't. Maybe, no. I didn't. He's just good like that, and we know why that you're so popular in pinball media is because of that big-ass gap you've got. Oh, yeah. It was a healthy gap. I haven't checked my gap. I'll have to go check it out well you haven't been having that problem so why bother I feel insecure now I want to see what the size of my gap is do I have a special gap if you're not having the problem why even bother looking what a simple easy fix damn it nicely done yeah once I saw it and he explained the situation and he showed in the switch test the difference with how my opto was triggering but it wasn't actually stain the beam being broken. It's one of two things. Either your opto's not aligned, which, again, with all the tests we've done, we knew the opto was aligned. Or there's something with the assembly between the subway and the VUC. Yeah, it triggers, but it doesn't stay. Right, because it's rolling back off. It's not settling on the VUC. The piece of paper solves it. Would you say, Dennis, now you are, after going through all that troubleshooting and nodeboarding, you're more familiar with the system of a new spike game? yeah because i'd never had a spike before so as you were like dennis what are you doing i don't understand where anything's connected i'm breaking everything apart well you're all like do we need to test this and this and these node boards are interchangeable and i'm just like this is all weird to me and i forgot to tell you about the dip switch thing that was another well that one at least was kind of like uh once we uh yeah i got the new dip switch and i installed the board my dad was over for some sinbad work uh he's a he's a retired engineer electrical engineer and I was like, it's saying Node 9 isn't detected anymore. I check every cable. They're all quite snugly attached. I didn't miss any pins. And he's like, it should be a dip switch then. I'm like, I don't see any dip switches. They're under like a yellow piece of tape, so I couldn't see them. So I didn't know that was the dip switch. Yeah, I was a dip shit on that dip switch. No, it was fine. It came from the factory, so I don't know if it's set up as an 8 or a 9. It's just one simple dip switch. I grabbed the old one and looked at where the – and then I just toggled it to match it. And then it was fine. I was just like – I didn't even realize that we're – I mean, it made sense because you're going to swap them around. You'd need a way for it to know the difference between the boards. It's just with that piece of tape over there, I've never seen tape covering dip switches. So your race to one billion continues. Continues. I'm now at 930-some million. Had we not had to record, had you not insisted I always be on time, Maybe I wouldn't have been flustered during Mechagodzilla Multiball. Or if I wasn't a half an hour or 45 minutes late. Yeah, you were late and I could have still played. I wasn't having sex this time, unfortunately. Production update for Stern Pinball. Earlier this past week, Stern did communicate with some dealers saying that we are still seeing continued supply chain disruptions. Uh-oh. That's no good. That's because of the MF-150s. Damn MF-150s. They said they are building Star Wars Premium this past week, and they're going to continue building them this week, if you guys are listening on Monday. This week they're going to continue building them. Then they're going to finish up the Star Wars Pro run that they took a break on or a pause on to make some premiums. So that's coming. They also said that Led Zeppelin Pro and Premium and Guardians of the Galaxy Pro will kick off September. Now, my previous reports told you that would be end of August, so it sounds like we are about a week delayed on things. I would assume that the last call Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles runs pro and premiums. They were supposed to be they were supposed to be September. I'm thinking they're still going to be September. They haven told us otherwise But I wondering now Dennis does this mean that the new Cornerstone release is going to see a slight delay as well Hmm Well you know for those listening today on Monday on the release day there was a lot of thought that if it was indeed going to drop on Tuesday normally the teaser trailer hits on Friday and that didn happen And the teaser trailers aren't as predictable, typically.
    41:23
    So are you still holding fast that you think Tuesday is going to be the reveal? I don't think it's happening. And I went back and I looked.
    41:31
    Don't be mad, Stern. I went back and looked at, because I'm such a nerd on new games, when they initiated conversation with dealers to say, hey, sign up for the seminar. We're going to be doing it Tuesday or whatever. When they usually initiate that signing up of Gary Stern's seminar. And that's typically done on a Friday. And we did not get that either. Now, having said that. I do think we don't see it now in August. Having said that, I think it was either Rush or Godzilla where we were given a heads up on Monday for a Tuesday-Wednesday seminar. I'm going to say, no, it's pushed to September now. I think so, too, sadly. I think so, too. People are desperate to talk about a new game. That's all I hear. That's all people want to know. And Stern's the only one they're anticipating at least being the next one, which I still think is the case. I will say the shortage in chain disruption and supply chain disruption is also affecting accessories, as we've seen some delays there. Right now, shaker motors are hard to get for the spike systems. A lot of us dealers have overordered in preparation for things like this to happen. And I had a good, healthy inventory for the last six months, but that has dried up as well. So there is no known when some of these things are coming back in stock. I would guess probably in the fall at some point.
    42:53
    Well, I'm glad I already got a shaker motor for Godzilla. I only have one spare shaker motor, and it's a Sam shaker. I bought it as a buy one, get one during a Black Friday. And I've been waiting to get another Sam game, and I never have. So it just sits. Could you not throw it in your Star Wars or Star Trek? Star Trek's got your favorite, the red trimmer shaker. Could you not remove that throw in a fucking fire and actually? No, I've got that one turned down. I'm not going to mess with it anymore. It's gentle, like a breeze, summer breeze. Like rubber washers holding it in place? Good Lord.
    43:34
    No, I'm just – look, someday, Zach, those World Poker Tours are going to fall back to $2,500, and I'm going to be ready with a shaker motor. Just you wait and see. Speaking of supply chain issues, I got an update from American Pinball as well. Oh, I haven't heard from them in a while. Well, they emailed dealers to say that Houdini's are being pushed back. Houdini's the first game they ever made, Houdini's? Yep, being pushed back. Yep, they had plans to start running those after the Oktoberfest that we're on. Now, I remember vaguely, and correct me as I make mistakes here. Are these the old-style Houdini's? Because they were going to do final runs of all the old stuff, and then I think they were moving to like a new uniform, cheaper way to build them? Or is this like the new way? Honestly, as a dealer, I'm confused. So what's that tell you? But I believe if I'm correct, the rest of this whole year is the originals, how they were doing them. Next year starts the different head, the stripped down parts, that kind of stuff. Okay. I don't know how this is now affected because of, I will just say, based on general electronics supply chain issues, forcing Houdini's to be pushed back. And the reason being is that they were saying, I think I can say this, stay fixed, don't be pissed off. Houdini's and Oktoberfest's and, I think Houdini's and Oktoberfest's were working off the same type of electronic system or a specified component. whereas later run and I think maybe some Hot Wheels but later run Hot Wheels we're seeing different components being used so Hot Wheels is taking the place on the production line of Houdini once Oktoberfest are done running oh ok so it's game specific essentially or a couple of games specific so it will not affect Legends of Valhalla it will not affect their new game this is more of a laser tanks yeah Yeah.
    45:34
    Can we just call it, can we rename it laser tanks? They're tanks with freaking lasers on them. Dave Fix did say supply chain issues. Prepare yourself, industry, because 2023, they're still going to be an issue. They may still be an issue in 2024. Gary Stern's been saying the same, so it makes sense. Dennis, what do you make of this whole American Pinball getting a working magic girl at Pinball Expo? another confusing thing to me i just what i just uh i hope they didn't spend maybe they just bought it a plane ticket i just hope they didn't invest much time on this but why don't get it from a company perspective there's no point there were some and again i think this is because there's not been a new game in a while since toy story really and everyone is just hungry for something to talk about that i saw people online speculating that this meant american pinball was going to start building functional magic girls and selling them i would say that's ridiculous but then i think about some decisions i'm like who knows i i think this is just a part of i think hasn't in the past dave fix been really involved with expo like yeah i think yeah right and he continues to be involved i think this is him through ap throwing rob burke a bone like we know that expo in 2021 sucked so let's get you something that people might actually want to look at doesn't Rob Burke have buckets of money? Well, I'm not saying that there wasn't, and maybe there was some shared compensation or anything. I just think this is just one little, it's already done. Is it going to be sitting in the American pinball booth?
    47:12
    That's the thing I'm not clear on. I'm going to guess yes. Like if I bought, look, if I bought a pinball machine a plane ticket to let it fly first class to Chicago, it's going to be in my booth. That magic girl sitting next to me. That's right. She's my plus one. That's right. So she's going with chicken over steak. Come on. So I think it was just like, you know, it's just a gimmick to try and get people interested in an expo because, you know, it's just not a very good show. So we're going to pay money to ship a game overseas to sit in our booth for people to play and potentially like more than our current products that we're selling. Okay. Well, come on. Understood. Reading up the detailed piece in Pinball News about the Magic Girl fixes, there ain't no way Magic Girl is going to be seen as a better playing game than Houdini or something. So I don't think that's a risk. Yes, it's a pretty game, but that's all it's got going for it. And as a reminder, everybody, if anybody is going to fall in love with a game made by John Papaduke, it would be me because I am very much a fan of a lot of his older pieces. I own those games. I get behind them even though people say they're designed poorly or whatnot. I love them. And when you hear me saying Magic Girl does not look like a good layout or a good game, that should be saying a lot. Neither did Raza. That game, layout-wise, looked like ass.
    48:38
    Complete and utter stand-up target ass. I remember you were pretty critical of the stand-up target approach, Really, a lot of the approach, the layout was when the prototype was revealed. And I know a lot of people who played the prototype did not have very favorable opinions of it, though. Opinions did vary, as they often do in pinball. One interesting ramp. The rest are stand-up targets. That's kind of like Magic Girl, too, in a lot of ways. There's clever things on Magic Girl. Believe me, I have researched way too much about the development of Magic Girl, how it all went down. not the legal stuff, but more so design and components and toys and levitating balls and ball locks. And I've even very much looked into, I've watched gameplay of this fixed game. I know what the rules are. I know all of that. Like the locks themselves, very clever. The ramp diverters, very clever. Everything else, junk. The thing that interested me about this isn't that they got it working. I mean, from like a homebrew perspective, that's really impressive. What I thought was so interesting, again, reading the Pinball News article, which went into depth, like interviewing the people who actually got it working, is the games that – I remember hearing when Papa Duke was associated with American Pinball, and he was giving them the first non-produced Houdini design. And in exchange, they were going to build the Magic Girls, and then the Houdini was just a diorama of nothingness, and it wasn't a functional game concept. Another beautiful game. And then they gave him, as I heard the story, a little corner of the space to build his own games. But they produced the parts. Here's all the stuff you said you needed. What I did not realize is every single one of those is different. And part of it seems to be he had various components in his Zidware studio to put in games, but they weren't standardized. Oh, wow. So the problem with this group of Europeans who got these made working Magic Girl is they can't give a universal guide to convert the AP versions to working versions because every single one of them is a little different in terms of how it's built and what parts are in it. It's not standard. That sounds like how Deadpool was – that sounds like how Deep Root was starting off. Yeah. Remember the rooms of just random parts and shit, and it's like, wait, what? it's just so yeah he just like had boxes of targets and stuff and he just i guess to get him out just threw stuff in and some things had a different design like just it's not it's just not consistent so really weird but i mean it's it's kind of it's kind of cool i've never seen a magic girl in person i'd be interested in looking at it at expo i doubt i'd want to stand in line to try and blow out if it doesn't play well maybe there won't be a line but i think trending up this week is the size of testicles of the man that owns this game willing to bring it across the season let everybody bang on it and also just the sheer anger still towards the way that whole thing went down uh having it in public for people to get close to yeah i don't think anyone would do anything it's not like john's making money off of it so remember the story i told you that was confidential prior to us starting people will do and and and do anything people are nutty yes that that's true but there's there's always a risk to sending a game to a show but what sort of show would we have if people didn't take their games to them i'm fine taking a game that they've made two thousand of but there's only one working yeah but people do this uh you know homebrewers bring their custom stuff that's part of the fun of it right is to show off you're one of a kind. Or Rare Restoration. People brought the Krull game one year to a show and they only made, what, eight of those or something? I mean, that's the point. I'm looking forward to playing it. I'm really grateful people bring the Rare stuff because there's no other way you're ever going to experience it. I am as well. I just, I don't know. You take a chance. And who knows? Maybe the show has good insurance if someone torches it. I'd be more worried about a J-Pup installed part catching on fire. I mean, ideally, you're thinking about the value of this game is at least $40,000. No. Sure it is. No. Sure it is. I guarantee you. Well, then let's see if someone – someone make an offer of $40,000 to buy the game at the show. I guarantee you if I offered $40,000 for that Magic Girl, the owner would turn me down. You know what? I'm not going to – I don't think that that's a true guarantee. I think they were wanting over $50,000 to replicate one. Yeah. Well, that was in Canadian dollars, I think. Oui. I don't know. I'll play it. I already know what it looks to shoot like. Maybe you'll like it, Zach. You like Halloween. Maybe I'll like it. No, even like they fixed the code and stuff, but it still isn't refined. So it's still sloppy text and stuff. I do like Toy Story. A lot of people don't like that. Oh, it shoots well. Did you hear this last week that CEs are now shipping? I did. Nobody cares. I do. I'm waiting for mine. I'm waiting. I'm eager to get mine. Okay. Well, I'm glad you're excited. You were able to. I think we've got some of our shipping out this week. Oh. A bunch of mine. Still need a deli, so I don't understand why they shifted like that, but whatever. I'm going to be bitter about it. Yeah, don't be bitter. They're doing the best they can. There are supply chain issues. Look, I was listening to your first impressions from the Collected Gamers podcast. Go listen to that. If you want to hear Dennis describe this game as, quote, a training wheels game, end quote. What were your thoughts about playing Toy Story 4 LE for the first time on location with a busted up spinner? All your qualifications. How fun. It was fun. I was like, oh, so you're judging a game that had a broken spinner. That's a game that had been on route for two weeks, so that tells you about the quality of the spinner. What's your fucking sample size? One? Come on now. That's right. All I need is a sample of one. Like what? Like you've sampled 30? Like your one good game meant that it's all great? I mean, come on. That's a valid argument. That's exactly valid. I find it interesting when you try and argue logic against me, like you think you'll win. I don't understand it. I played three, to be fair, but okay. You're far too driven by your passions. You're far too... Training wheels game. Well, that's... And this is not unusual. Everyone's been saying it's an easier game to play. And they set it up to have some issues. I think they set it up harder than the default on location. But it shot well. I enjoyed the jump wrap. That was actually a lot of fun to hit. That's a great shot. Not really a fan. It's not super easy either, right? No, no, it is not. I missed it more often than I did. Yeah, exactly. If you guys want to see something painful, go watch Joel's last stream of it. Oh, poor Joel. Oh, man. It was more entertaining. He needs to put those metal flippers on ASAP. So much more entertaining than any competitive pinball tournament I've ever seen in my life. He got his last two games were within his last game, spoiler alert, within two shots of starting that wizard mode. I thought he was going to pull his hair out. He said it's like the most frustrating experience in pinball he's ever had. But he kept pressing that start button. Yeah. And I know he's, again, I didn't get far enough to experience this. I know he's very frustrated with the thing with the super loops. Yes. So that's like the one part they took the training wheels off. Yeah, his complaint is it's too hard. I'm like, well, shit, which one is it here, people? I know what he's saying now. Yeah, you understand. So you and Tony both felt like it shot fairly well. Yeah, I need more time on it to rank it against the other Lawlers.
    56:34
    But I would say I probably enjoyed shooting it more than Wonka, but less than Dialed In. So I put it at number two, where I currently kind of stand. I mean, I like things to be a variety. I don't want everything to be a brutal shooter. It being an easier shooter is a nice change of pace. So, yeah, the spinner being broken really sucked because that took away a lot of capability on it. The game had some other kind of wonkiness, like the ball release for the road trip multi-ball would – and I guess other people were saying it was like rattling on release sometimes, so you get straight down the middle releases, which you couldn't really do anything about. I mean, yeah, I lost a ball to that. But again, I had absolutely no time on it, and I still was able to take first place in competition on it. So that tells you about the training wheels. I didn't, yeah. Because I was able to rely on my raw skill.
    57:26
    My raw skill. But yeah, and I need to remember to watch the Giants tablet more because I wouldn't always pay attention to know exactly what I was supposed to shoot. And on JJPs, everything's lit all the time. Everything's flashing, yeah. So I'm like, okay. And then one of the other players was like, just read the screen, Dennis. I was like, oh, yeah, it does tell me exactly what I need to be doing. So, yeah, I mean, it's fine, and I could hear it. It wasn't loud enough that the carny sounds were annoying to me or anything, but I could hear the call-outs and stuff. Joel's struggling with the sounds, he said, of the game. Oh, yeah, I mean, I haven't really liked a lot of the JJP sound effect package really since Thiel left. I can see that, yeah, or I can hear that. Like, I don't mind the music and stuff that they've done in the games. It's the sound effects that kind of irked me. But I'm not like a Ryan C. who's really, really – like, sound's not a big deal to me. Like, the tinkling glass of Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle I despised on that spooky title. But it didn't dissuade me from playing and enjoying the game. Yeah, it takes a lot for me, sound-wise, to be annoyed. So anyway, yeah, it's an easier player. The flippers do feel better, at least on location, than the other JJP games. But they still feel like they're not snappy like Sterns. It's just but that's that's always I mean, unless they choose to copy Sterns flippers, this is how it's going to be. And you said the if I remember correctly in your podcast, you said visually the game is it's a beautiful game. Looks good. Yeah. Just nothing that slaps you across the face like, oh, shit, that's unbelievable. Yeah. I just the way they incorporated the art on the on the play field and stuff. It's attractive. Like, I think it looks way better than Wonka did. I think people are finally coming to more of a consensus about this game now that people have been able to play it more. I think more people play it at shows is going to help as well. I think evaluation of any game, when you're talking about adding it to your collection, and I know this is not, and I understand why it's not, it's not the straight down the middle way, Zach, but the problem isn't the gameplay or even that it's easy. It's that it's $12,000 plus. That's what I was going to say. That's the problem with it. Yeah, it's more money than people see value in compared to other products. Exactly. It feels like you're paying a premium for nothing extra.
    59:49
    And again, that's where – and it can be seen as completely unfair, but we're not obligated to be fair. Sure. But someone like me is going to sit there and compare it to a Godzilla premium, which is $3,000 less, and feels like it just has a lot more going on. My argument there would be, if I had to, is, okay, so you purchased Godzilla Premium. Yeah. Some people want more than just that game.
    60:15
    Sure. You know, because comparing it to Godzilla Premium is, you can't compare hardly any game to Godzilla Premium. I know, and that's part of the reason why I said it's not fair to do. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, if you wanted to talk about, you could take Rush Premium. I mean, there's a lot going on with Rush Premium. Mm-hmm. Toy Story might fare better if we were to compare it to Led Zeppelin Premium, which mechanically still doesn't seem to have very much going on with it. But again, it's thousands less. Yeah. So that's the thing. The jump ramp is the only thing that, to me, stands out mechanically when I played the game. Even though I know there's other mechanical stuff like the diverting and the physical ball locks. They're not bad. They're just not impressive. They don't blow anyone's socks off. Yep. At least not my socks. I can see that. What about this? Is it a better jump ramp than No Good Gophers?
    61:12
    Oh, yeah. Okay. I got grilled for that one because I said no. Mechanically and functionally, it's far superior than No Good Gophers. I do like that No Good Gophers has this chance and luck of it. You hit the hole 19 or 18 or whatever. I like that Hold on But just mechanically this jump ramp is super smooth and seamless It really does well from a mechanical standpoint Yeah, no. I think it's – I thought it was a more enjoyable ramp myself. I need to play it some more. I've got a lot more time on No Good Gophers. I've never been a huge fan of the No Good Gophers jumper, honestly. I just find it really clunky. And this is not. I thought it was an incredibly well-designed ramp. It's easily my favorite thing about Toy Story was that ramp. Yeah, a lot of people are comparing Toy Story 4 to, you hear, No Good Gophers, you hear Dialed In. And if you guys check out the latest, straight down the middle, this or that video coming out and debuting this week, we put it to the test, Toy Story 4 LE or No Good Gophers and Dialed In Standard. Wow, you guys are doing a tot. Money-wise, it's about the same. You haven't done a tot in a long time. We call it tot now. Well, we got a tot coming in hot. How about that? Hot tots.
    62:34
    Well, you know what time it is. It's time, Zach, to end the show. Ta-da! Oh, you know what's coming in hotter than a flaming tot? Mm-mm. Pinball biony. A flaming pinball podcast segment with plenty of cheese. It's BAMBOO! Market Trends! That one came out so damn good.
    63:00
    You sounded very passionate. You saved all your energy for this one segment. I love my notes for this where there's nothing.
    63:09
    I look forward to all these well-researched trends. I hope you all enjoyed that scream because my back was beating the whole time. I've just taken one disc of your back away. Your core's not strong enough for this screaming.
    63:27
    It's going to be a little bit different this week, listener. And Dennis, you guys might enjoy this a little bit more. There's nothing trending up this week. There's nothing trending down this week. No deals this week. No scream. Maybe a screaming goat or two.
    63:38
    But there is no deals at WTF because we are going to take a step back in pinball market trends this week. And we're going to give you a market analysis as of the summer of 2022.
    63:50
    Hop along for a nice, informative ride. Dennis, over the past three months, we've seen pricing of pinball machines in the secondary market start to come down, right? To a significant degree. Yep. Drop, drop, drop. No arguing there. Numbers don't lie. I can only report the facts, even if it's not in my favor. And I think it's fair to say that early 2022 is kind of the peak of pinflation. I think that's where the prices got the highest on that roller coaster. And that was built up from what we're calling the era of pinflation. Pre-pandemic, we're looking at mid-2020 all the way up to 2022 here. Now, I have analyzed the trends over the last month, last 30 days, and I'm starting to see an overall slower rate of decline in pricing on the secondary market compared to months prior. Now, in other words, listener, we've seen some significant and fast declines in pricing overall in June and July. That's where we picture it. Toy Story 4 was announced, right? People weren't jumping on that title as much. We also seen just concurrently around that same time, price is starting to drop. Everybody's like, oh, the bubble is bursting, right? The economy, the market in general in our society and the world is kind of going down. So we saw some big dives down in June and July. We continue to see declining prices in August, but we're seeing the rate at which those are dropping to be less significant, less severe. We are still seeing some pinball titles continue to kind of what I'm calling drip drop in pricing, i.e. Halloween, The Mandalorian. They're going to continue to drop, but they're drip drops. They're not bludgeoned. They're still dripping down. But there are many titles, listener, especially those, the most sought after titles. They have begun to actually level out. Interestingly, they have leveled out at a rate on the secondary market that is still substantially higher than that of pre-pandemic market pricing. Take, for example, Stern Pinball's Elvira's House of Horse or Stern Pinball's Stranger Things. During the pandemic, or over the last year, we've seen secondary prices blast through a ceiling that we thought was made of stone. Over the past couple of months, pricing for those two in particular, sought after titles, has declined. There's no doubt about that. But they are still being sold for a substantially higher amount of money over MSRP. Overall, the market is adjusting itself now. We're in an adjustment stage. Many pre-owned games are being produced in plentiful. and those games being produced in plentiful are around that of a new in box msrp now we're no longer really above that msrp for a lot of these titles that are just being cranked out there i'm seeing for example some godzilla pros that are used they're going for about a hundred two hundred dollars under msrp so back to those normal days of of buying a used game for less than a new in box game that makes sense but keep in mind that isn't considering shipping there are some still dealers like flipping out pinball that offer free shipping on new games so that kind of skews things but for the most part a general rule of thumb here we're starting to see even the most popular games that are plentiful they're building a lot not stranger things but things like godzilla avengers they're selling now used less than that of a new in box price and that is the leveling out that we're talking about the same can be said for older titles over the past couple of months those less desired titles pre-pandemic are coming back down to reality finally your fish tales of the world johnny mnemonics ems in general system 11 games sega games overall they're coming back down to reality i do believe they'll likely settle in still a bit above the pricing before the launch of pinflation 2021 2021 is a big year of pinflation because it persisted throughout the whole year you're still going to see it settle a little bit above what we were seeing prior to that. Moreover, the sought-after titles, though, Indiana Jones, Tales of Arabian Nights, those are still commanding top dollar. Those have not seen as big of market fluctuation, as big of dip as you're seeing those less sought-after titles. In a way, I'm seeing the market fluctuations are creating a larger gap in pricing between titles of pinball machines.
    68:13
    And based on reported data and pseudo-polynomial analysis, Stern Pinball and Chicago Gaming Company are showing to be the companies holding the best return on your dollar, especially the limited edition LE varieties of said games. Things like Godzilla LE, $17,000 to $18,000. That's holding maybe the crazy pandemic price you were seeing Godzilla LEs for $20,000. It's settled to $17,000 to $18,000, but still the return on the dollar is high. Cactus Canyon remake, LE, still going to run you $12,000 to $13,000. The Mandalorian LE, you look at the pros, you look at the premiums, Those are substantially below that of new in box MSRP pricing, but the Mandalorian LE used, still holding right there at $11,000, the price of a new in box. Medieval Madness remake, LE, $13,000 to $14,000, way above. Stranger Things LE, $16,000 to $17,000, way above. Attack from Mars remake, LE, $13,000 to $15,000, way above. Deadpool LE, $14,000 to $15,000, way above. So you see what I'm trying to say. The differentiating point right now in your return on the dollar is highest for those really sought-after older titles like Indiana Jones, Tales of Arabian Nights, and very much so for your CGC and Stern Pinball LEs. What I'm seeing is that gap growing more than anything. And the same goes for those pesky, pricey toppers and those hard-to-get accessories. Sure, we're not seeing $5,000 right now for the Star Wars R2-D2 topper or the Ghostbusters topper. People were paying that during that 2021 big pinflation. But that doesn't say they're dropping all the way. They are still holding strong through this pandemic pinflation era and still settling in at about $3,000 to $3,500. So we hit the ceiling, and as we're coming back down, some things are settling in, and I don't think they're going to settle in quite as low as you would like them to, whereas other things are settling way down close to pre-pandemic pricing. The niche market of truly restored games also is worth note. These have held their own in the secondary market as well. So as a recap here, we're seeing a gap increase as the market is stabilizing itself. Those games that are not as sought after and made in plentiful are dropping even more than the games that hold value like the Stern LEs, the high-end Bally Williams, the CGC LEs, and the truly restored games of the world. And they will continue to hold their value, and that gap will grow. Now, what will we see in the pinball market trends over the next year? I anticipate and predict that this growing gap will continue. Not much. You're still going to see the drip drop, as I call it. You're going to see a drip drop a little bit more, and you're going to see these higher-end things I told you to keep your eye out on. You may see a little bit drop here and there, but not significant to the point of even the drip drop or even the gangbuster prices you're going to see on some of these pros that are made in Plentiful. Gap will continue. The high-end stuff is going to stay high-end because it's a niche market and people are willing to pay for it. And you're going to see the other stuff that people stumble across and take a chance on, they will continue to decrease. That wasn't too bad, right? You didn't really address anything about whether or not the markets will enter into a recession. You seem to be assuming that they won't based off of what you've said. So I thought it was very interesting that you don't think that there would be any further dip even though we're unclear. Yeah, the recession thing. I didn't dive into the recession, no. Right, right. Well, I mean there's like one of two paths, right? Either we will or we won't go into recession. Technically, we're not in recession yet. though some people feel we should be. So I just thought it was sort of interesting. No, I agree that the pricing isn't dropping as much now as it did earlier in the year. So that part, I mean, that's obvious. You can see that. Not obvious to a lot of people. Well, no, because they don't look. But moving forward, part of the thing is a lot of this is sort of, in my view, mirrored what we've seen in terms of stock performance, which, okay, depending on what index you look at, January is kind of the peak on that, but it was after March where everything really fell. But things started to recover over the summer, not to like March levels, but they've recovered from their dips like in late May time period. So given that, that would explain to me why there's been a slowness, a slowing down of the declines coupled with some of the stuff that we have seen like crypto already. I mean maybe it hasn't hit the bottom, but it's severely bottomed out. But I don't know how many crypto bros got into pinball. They were a real big issue in watches and driving up wristwatch prices. Crypto bros like toys. Yeah. They like things they think will – some of the thought was they were moving into more physical items as alternative investments.
    72:55
    But as their crypto returns, which many of them kept great sums of money in, have totally bottomed out, they've needed to liquefy other things to gain capital. So they sell their Pateks and their Rolexes, and they might sell their pinball machines too if they were a heavy player in this market. It's just if inflation continues, that's one factor we have to consider. Another thing is if the interest rates to borrow funding go up more and more and more, some people might turn to liquidating toys rather than borrowing to do projects and stuff. So this is a lot where you might be right. I'm just not sure. I'm not sure. We might see another. I remember in the last downturn, people are like the – new and box pinball prices didn't go down, and I don't expect that to change. But a recession could drive people out of the hobby, at least temporarily, or at least as collectors. And so that's where I'm wondering if people are going to just basically, based off of no choice, have to start unloading games. And that's not factoring in where I think your analysis has captured where we're already at with people getting back to quote-unquote normal. Like people not buying as many games now because they're not stuck at home all the time. I think we've already seen the impact of that. I'm just kind of curious. There are a lot of people that got into this hobby that I don't think they're long-termers. And maybe that's just because of the market. But I think there are going to be people that are like, you know what? Why do I have a room full of these things now? I'm never playing them. I think what may be fun is we did just a market analysis for the summer of 2022, kind of where we're at now. Maybe in an upcoming Pinball Market Trends segment. So what are we going to see in the Pinball Market Trends over the next year or so? Recession versus no recession? It's very much unclear. But stay tuned for our continued prognostications on the industry and how it travels through the future to be continued. But what we do know for sure, listener, is that I'm only here to report the facts. The numbers don't lie. Neither do I on pinball market trends.
    75:02
    All right, Dennis, let's call it quits here. Where can people catch you? They can always write in to eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or you can go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. Use the messenger tool and I'm usually the one who checks those. And if you like watches and timepieces and horology, that kind of horology, then check out Watches with Dennis as well on YouTube.
    75:29
    You can check me out at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. Email me over there, or you can catch me at Straight Down the Middle Video Series for Pinball. We've got a this or that coming out this week, as well as a new pinball company that we're helping introduce with a new mod they're releasing. So check that out. I thought it was going to be last week. It's this week. Sponsor of this show is Flippin' Out Pinball. As a reminder, that is my company. and we sell new, used pinball machines, arcade machines, accessories, and whatnot. We've got the Flippin' Out Vault opened up. Go check that out, all the treasures in the vault. I told you guys I was going to add something. I forgot, so I'll do that today. Product showcase this week is the Guns N' Roses LE that we have pre-owned. Remember, they're like $11,000 plus shipping new. We've got this thing marked down pre-owned to $9,800. Wow.
    76:19
    That's way under Toy Story 4. That's pretty good, right? We also have one Oktoberfest Classic still left in stock. We've got a Turtles Pro and Premium that we're taking pre-orders on, that last run here in September, as well as still taking orders on Toy Story 4 in general, the LE.
    76:37
    CE's, they're going to boom. Those all sold out. Jack told me they all sold out. Well, he sold them all out, and I've still got some. But if they're building them all, like, right now, right now, because we have a crapload coming in, then I could probably get you one sooner than later. So check us out for that. Mandalorian Pro and Premium in stock. Rush Pro and Premium in stock. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pro pre-owned. It may be pending, but if not, $6,100. We've got GNR LE in stock. Cactus Canyon Remake SE in stock. Still taking. We've got a couple spots for the SE Plus Epsilon. Only four weeks out for those toppers. That's for LEs, maybe. I don't know. And SE Pluses, right? Or are they doing all the LEs first? I would assume they'll do all LEs first. But who knows? Who freaking knows? Insider Connected kits. If you don't have them in your games, get them. It's worth it. It's fun. Taking pre-orders on Alien Queen. You've got the Elvira 40th anniversary that Nicole wants to get rid of. No, you want to unbox it. I wouldn't mind it. I just want to see it. Elvira is a fun game. It is. I can't afford 40 out of 40, though. That commands a premium. Neither can I. I mean, I had to liquidate my, pun intended, my above-ground bull. rush did you did you leave the water in it when they showed up you know what we were kind enough to pump out the water i just was like well shit what are we gonna do now i'm taking off the first panel just washing away float out washing across the field oh god oh man a storm is coming take shelter oh rush pre-order accessories at some point they've got to release them right where's the godzilla topper i don't i don't know i don't know where any of this shit's at but if you need armor art blades or anything like that hit us up golden t 2022 hit us up arcade collection we got one more of those hit us up uh escalators is up merch hit us up last week and not much went on podcast-wise here at TPM, but a lot of streams, so check those out. And this week, I think we'll get some podcasts this week. We've got an Aussie pinball podcast about to come out. Civil War Chronicles is probably close, as well as Triple Dream and Final Round, everyone's favorite podcast. They're probably pretty close to a full week of content and not just Mom's spaghetti and the pinball show.
    79:01
    That's a hot episode there, Dennis. And people liked the Nicole episode, too. They did. She was so worried. She was like, people don't want to hear me. I'm not good in the microphone. I'm nervous. I just hate this shit. And I'm like, well, I had fun. And anymore, I really don't care. If I'm having fun, then we keep doing it. And I love whenever I get to co-host with you, Dennis. She was a big fan of yours. Did you hear that? Fuck. Yeah. Talking you up. She said you were nicer, though. She's like, you're really a sweetheart deep down inside. I know. I'll take it. And you remind her of her son.
    79:36
    Yes. she called me out when he had a birthday I think it was she referenced that and then I didn't reply I gave her a shocky face but that wasn't enough she wanted a comment and so I was like well I gave the shocky face Nicole I don't know what to say when you say this I tried telling her I was like look he said the trap and you went right to it and she fell for it it's a trap she fell for it he plays hard to get For Dennis Creasel, I'll always be the man to walk into Dennis Creasel's trap, Zach Minning. And remember, precious, if the computers get steals, just run Hot Wheels.
    80:15
    And always practice safe pinball and market gap and VUG gap and schedule gap. Oh, my. Oh, come on, man.
    80:39
    Dennis Creasel, ladies and gentlemen, concludes episode 111. You can edit that out if you want. That's your call. I think it's fun. Maybe. That's a big downer. That's a rough one.
    80:53
    I'm sorry. I'm going to need a moment. Where the fuck is Todad? I'm the best. Oh, yeah. All right. Sorry.
    81:07
    Got a pinball company. Need computers. For half the price, email us and we'll throw in a magic girl. Just send your PayPal friends and family to computersforlife at gmail.com.
    81:27
    This is what they do. Oh, man. That was a laugh that hurt my back That was a good one I wrote that one out in the intro to save for you here at the end I'm sweating It's too good Even if we're the only ones that get it It's too good Turn me on When you turn me on You drop the bomb on me When you turn me on You drop the bomb on me When you turn me on