You said it and asked for some But this is, this is a entertainment that is marrying dollars from Express please If you cash that in you can get, I think if you pick the rifle, it's the attaball. So there you go. Okay, is that on the instruction card? No, but by the way on Godzilla there's an attaball insert on the Mechagodzilla. Just for you Jeff, just for you. And how do you light it? You select it. You can choose to select it. There are three you can choose. Is that also on the instruction card? It's the most laid out of any attaball I've seen in a long time, Marty. Hey Jeff, how do you add a ball in Star Wars when you're in one of the mini wizard modes? Like the sausage, sausage mode of each of the four. Sausage mode? I know what you mean. No, the sausage, the sausage is there. I believe you have to knock the force targets down either once or twice depending on the settings and then hold the button for a few seconds and that will add a ball. We could go through so many games and I couldn't tell you how to add a ball on several and I don't think you could either. You know, it's hitting pin tips right before you start a playoff or a match play, just to kind of figure it out. I wish it was a little easier. It does matter. I know Dwight and I have had good conversations where he says it doesn't matter. Sorry, it does matter. It's low on the priority list. And he might be right. But for me, that's something that's a big advantage. So it does matter to me. What were you getting at, Marty? What was Marty getting at there? You're being a little cheeky there. What were you getting at? The obvious like you going oh edible edible I like well it still confusing so on Fibonacci numbers exactly um no I just my point that I still think that games these days are too complicated for their own good and I think that's because, look, obviously I don't know these developers and coders to know what's going on in their head, but to me it seems like in the past somebody would start working on a rules framework and if it ended up being It was getting really complicated. It ended up being complicated. Now, I think they're going into it wanting a complicated rule Set and I think that takes away some of the magic of discovering good pinball rules. And if you want it more complicated, you can buy extra code too, like Cactus Canyon. Go ahead there Ryan. We've talked about it off air. I hate the idea of it. I wish it was included. I don't like the buying model. Pay Lyman, pay Josh, include it. Who do you think is getting paid more, Lyman or Josh? Better be Lyman. No, what I was going to say is that I feel like, you know, we kind of complain a little bit about unintuitive rule sets or complex rules, but I think that they absolutely have to do it because people are so, and I think we might have touched on this last time with the Willy Wonka update where they changed all the settings to be easier, kind of by default, and people kind of said, well, couldn't people have just gone into the settings anyway? butt. . I was like, that was so much fun that I don't want to sell this game and I just want to make it harder and I progressively made it harder and harder until ruling the universe was like, you know, that one in 500 kind of game. But I still don't do it to other games and that's all it is. Like some games need to be complex because of the layout. Some games need to be simple. But if your skill set is you're in the top 100 players versus you're in the top 100 players, then you're in the top 100 players. So I think that's a good thing. You're pretty average at pinball. The same game can get away or whatever it is. You can have it in your collection for a long time and it can be challenging, but you have to toughen it up. People don't do that. It's just like it comes out of the box and people usually just play it as it is. And if it magically suits their play style, then they'll enjoy it. If it doesn't, they get rid of it. But the bone of the manufacturers is that they want to sell pinball machines to as many people as possible. And that doesn't mean just like the one machine. They want to sell machines to people that love them so much that they'll buy the next title. So, who are you coding it for? Well, you have to like it but also it can't be so easy that you pass it on before you're manufacturing the next game or you finish the run. Like the secondhand games, you know, it'd be great for manufacturers if secondhand games weren't available until they stopped making the game. And that would allow them to keep on selling that game. But if the market is flooded with the secondhand game because it's too easy or the game is shit, Dr Nick ręcz 라 chuckles Firefoxلام punches Naval Scorpokes, It's not that much. It's like 20% more or something. But if you do a direct translation of the 9,250 US dollars, I think it is, to Australian dollars, there's a decent couple thousand dollar markup there. And it doesn't matter because they're all sold out. So if... It's funny because I guess all the US distributors had to sell it at retail price, but... No, they didn't. No, that's not true. Okay. It was suggested and because of the number of games they got, they could dictate the price. I put my name down cuz I was curious. I'm like, well, if Josh and Lyman are gonna be involved, I would love to maybe have an alley and see what that's like. But I don't know how much that code is gonna cost. And I wanted to leave a buffer, maybe like a one and a half, $2,000 buffer for the code. I have no idea how much it's gonna cost. By the way, this is not inside information. But at $17,000, that means that at a $2,000 buffer, it would be $19,000, which I'm not paying for a fucking Cactus Canyon. Like, you know, sometimes Sometimes your mind might play tricks and you're like, ah, should I, should I, I guess I can get my money back and it's like, no, that's a fucking car, like... Let's break this down. You're not getting it. If it had been the 92 or 95 US price translated into Australian dollars at 20%, we're looking 12, $13,000, I'm guessing you probably would have bought that, right? Sure, in the heat of the moment, like you get the, that little window of, you're like, ah, man, new pinball machine, this will make, this will make me happy, yeah. Okay, so you would have bought that. Yep. The dealer is setting their price, the distributor, and they realize they can sell it for probably $17 and it'll be sold out. Are you sensing that this is not a model you like with the distributors? Because distributors have been watching for the last few years LEs be gobbled up instantly. I can't remember the last time an LE wasn't sold out instantly, probably, it's not an LE but it was probably Beatles. And they were selling them at the suggested retail price. And even before the games were delivered you would see them on the marketplaces, pin side, wherever. Here's my spot. Here's the price. And funny enough there was two or three thousand dollars added to that. So, now the distributors are going why am I selling LE to these people that are flipping them when I can just do that why can't I get a piece of that pie. Especially when inventory is low and, yes, the popularity is huge for pinball right now. But it's like car dealerships. Yeah, people want to buy cars. There are no cars. People want to buy pinball machines. There are no pinball machines available. I talked to five distributors at Expo. Nobody had any inventory. Nobody. And major distributors. So now the distributors are getting a few of these machines and they're, some would say, price gouging. But people are paying for that. And, you know, it hit your limit. But you also did buy a Mandalorian LE and a Pro with, I'm guessing, the idea that you were going to flip that LE. ABC The only time is, oh, I didn't like this game. That was the reason. That's it. Yeah, I've been offered like $30,000 for my Tron Alley that I bought for $10,000 and I didn't take it. I sold my Avengers Alley for the exact same price that I got it. Sorry, this isn't the Ryan Morrill story. This is... Why are you framing me like that? I'm telling you... Okay, I'll tell you why I bought it. I'm making a point. I bought it because I bought the Mandler in LA because I like buying things that I know I have a very... Like I'm risk averse financially in that way that I know that I should be able to get my money back maybe plus or minus $1,000. That's why. It's the confidence of everything. This isn't about you. This is about the market. This whole thing is about the market. My observation is that pinball for you, Marty, Ryan, myself, many people listening, it's a hobby, but it's not becoming a hobby anymore. Pinball is becoming all about commodities, buying and trading and flipping and that's what we're seeing with these LE models, that's probably what we're seeing with Cactus Canyon, whether it's through the distributors, whether it's on marketplace, it's very scary right now. No, Jeff, Jeff, you're seeing it, but you're not seeing it a lot. There's a couple of people that are doing it. No, no, no, no, no. Are there like 500 people flipping their L.A.s? Out of 1500? Quantify it. It's not that many people that are buying them to flip. There probably is more than there has been before, but it's still the vast majority of people are buying these machines to play them. I think that's a bit of scaremongering. Mmm... The price keeps going up, we keep seeing them on the marketplace, things are available. I remember asking Dr. John, did you get an LE of whatever it was? No, you can always get one later. Sure. Again, people aren't buying these to save them. I've had a few talks with some of the distributors and stuff and that's kind of what people... I mean, Ryan certainly opened up Mandalorian, but there are a lot of people that aren't doing it. I'm not saying it's the majority like you suggest, Marty, but... or like you, you know... But you're just saying that it's... you're saying it's so prevalent. Well, it's not. It's just we see it and we are angry at it, but it's not Fear of missing out. Yeah, but what I'm saying is it's not as widespread as you're making it out. You don't think it's gotten worse in the last few years? Come on. Yeah, it has. It's probably gone from five people to twenty people. Bullshit. No way. Here's a dumb thing. The alley version of a game is purely cosmetic. Like, you can buy the premium and have the same thing. Yes. Yes! Stern want people to buy the LE but they don't want to make the LE so fucking good that people are like, well I refuse to buy the premium because I'm not going to get the same experience. Like that whole dark part of the pinball thing is, yes. Ryan, you gave me shit because I'm buying an Avengers premium and you said I'll get the LE, premiums don't go up in the market as much. You purposely told me that and I was like, what? I don't, I want to play the game, I'm not buying it to flip it. And it's the same game as the LE and a lot less price. That's because you have the option of buying it new. I'm talking about people who miss out on buying the Allee, which includes me as well. I refuse to buy a premium because I'm not going to get the same experience. They want the Allee because they want to feel like they have the best. They want to feel like they've maybe got something that holds their value a bit more. But if they're buying it for what people write, say in air quotes, the right reasons, which is bullshit because your reason for buying a pinball machine It's the same game. That whole Alvira thing. It's just fucking armor and you know. $199 sold out pretty much instantly. Ridiculous 20,000 plus prices. You're telling me this isn't a commodity business anymore Marty? Oh no, of course it is and manufacturers know what they're going to get for their money. And we had a conversation during the week and I had a very similar sort of clap back at you as I just did previously when you're like, You know what? My bubble's gonna burst! Oh, I said, what is it? Do you actually have any evidence to suggest that the bubble is gonna burst? History? No. When did it burst last time? I'm just talking about anything that we're supplying with supply and demand. Yeah, but that doesn't mean you've got any evidence. Doesn't mean you've got evidence to say that it's gonna burst. Do you think this is gonna go on forever and ever? People are gonna be fed up after a while, like, okay, $40,000 for a fucking LE? I'm not doing that anymore. But I think what you're saying is- I'm pretty sure Stern has a roadmap, like they're not like we're just gonna keep on raising the prices and we'll just fucking see what like and and we won't adjust based on supply and demand like I'm pretty sure they have people sitting there mapping everything out and if they push it too far or if they start offering shitty titles that people don't want they're not gonna try and you know might they might have like one bad game like the you know Beatles and like okay and now wait a second Gary Stern himself said every single game every model is underpriced even today even Dir Kุ Schöni note that totally Truckilar to boot upstageılan perhaps have never I think your buying an LE and expecting to Make 3, 4000 Dollars on it Before you've even Opened the Box, That number's Gonna Shrink and Shrink and Shrink and Oh Shit, I'm Just Getting Exactly, When? I don't know it. But it's just, it's scare mongering until you've got facts. No. It is, it is. You don't know that it's Gonna Happen. We all Expect it to, but we don't know. Sorry to throw somebody under the Bus and I wish they were in this Conversation. Do you know who agrees 100% with me? Who's that? Josh Sharp. Does he have facts? Well, he's the CFO of fucking Raw Thrills. Cool. So, I would imagine he also has these models and we had a long conversation about this. About, yeah, it's strike right now while it's hot, it will eventually not be this hot. It will come down. I don't know when. I think what Marty's trying to say, Jeff, is that when it comes down, it's like you're using the word burst, like it's gonna be like back down to $6,500. Yeah, that's what you're saying. The correction might only be like 5,000 or something. I meant there'll be a time when a company will put out a game like Elvira 40th anniversary and they'll be like, oh, that didn't work. 199 at 25,000 or whatever it is. Oh, we missed that one. Yeah, look, at the end of the day, we are still living in a post and still in COVID world high end. And we are still feeling like the aftershocks of people's financial situations, which has made them more liquid. Therefore, they've been able to purchase things. And it's not just pinball. We know it's not just pinball. It is in a lot of markets at the moment where prices have gone absolutely crazy, particularly the secondhand market. So it's not just pinball machines. But I don't see that this is really going to have a material impact on pricing until the final shockwaves of COVID are over financially. I have one more thing I want to say about this and it's that the moment you enter pinball as a hobby as a buyer, that's where your baseline usually is. When I bought my first machine, which was Indiana Jones, I bought it off a guy called Dave and I was working with him and I'm like, hey, you rotate machines around a lot. When it's time to sell the machine, can I have first tips on it? And he's like, cool, I'll give it to you for like what I got it for. And in my head, that figure was $3,500. And then when I went to pay, like, he's like, I'm ready to sell to you. It was $5,500. amazon Knapp Arcade, shotsexpensive pinball entertainedISSA pepp Allowparty whoa hello on. Where you heart, Pe armas? Use Directly onnaladi . Do straight Anl encountersлю kann distance Jaicis My English Jaicis Amen So Hmm Even I'm just gonna take the laugh there. Why pinball companies are so smart nowadays is because they realize things like licensing will attract new audiences. So they don't know what the prices were years ago when they see a theme that they really love. I've got to have that. I think the first time I ever really realized how important this was, was Supreme. Like really, a no frills game, shitty art gobbled up instantly because of that Supreme model and the way the buyers are. Again, fear of missing out. We saw what happened with the Museum of Pinball in Banning and that ridiculous fucking auction. And people, I've got to have that. It's museum quality. It must be worth this. And prices went for probably, across the board, double what they were worth. But again, a lot of those, I would imagine, were new pinball buyers because of the marketing of that auction and really brought people into a hobby they maybe didn't know much about. So yeah, there are audiences out there. I mean that's, is the bubble gonna burst? No. Is, I think they're still finding new audiences out there. Pinball is such a small, small community but the buying public is a lot bigger and we've got to find more people that might be interested in pinball and I think the pinball companies do a great job with licensing and with marketing to get these people to come to our hobby. We've been talking about this for about 30 minutes and I think it's because I saw the announcement the other day that um, you know considering you know Valhalla, you know Legends of Valhalla Partner with somethin fishστ noiseavez愲 you No. Unless it is true, Marty, please don't tell me you're gonna do that. Don't say bullshit about Haggis. I got a fucking Haggis guy with me the whole time. First of all, I love Haggis. What do you mean? You're saying like the non-Mermaid edition, was that the joke that you're saying, that it now comes with the code? I'm just saying you can do whatever the fuck you want, Marty, because it's like, it's the Wild West out there. You can just say you're gonna do something and just make more or offer it to everyone. Ryan, how dare you think my Josh air conditioning joke fell flat from Loser Kid and you fucking pull that? Give me a break. Okay, this is where it's difficult for me to be a commentator on a podcast and also work for a pinball company. But I will try and dance around my point by saying that they are conversations that we have all the time when we witness other companies doing it and we just stick to our guns. This is what we said we would do for customers and this is what we're going to do. We're not going to change it. About those things you mentioned, Cactus Canyon selling that topper for the people that buy the regular edition, I think that's a great idea. That is a cool looking topper. I mean, that's one thing that company does very well, whether it's Attack from Mars, all of their games, Monster Bash. That's not the point, Jeff. The point is making people buy something, not making people, advertising something. I sorry I am I sick I mean if people want to buy it get it I mean I think they leaving money on the table If they only did 1000 of those toppers or whatever the number was that leaving a lot of money on the table Look at how much people bitched about not getting that UV kit I know you all got it in Australia the UV kit for Stranger Things which really makes the game pop And you couldn get that anymore Sell the things Sell more toppers I don get that I mean I could give two shits about toppers This one kind of cool This one in Cactus has a shooting If you want to see anything about Toppers, please watch this and see their newest ever single Tage SSSI That was just two years. That's how much shit has changed in the last two years. And the Valhalla thing was because they announced it at 6pm Eastern, which means Europe was in bed, Australia was just waking up. The distributors kind of missed the opportunity. They didn't see it coming, so they had demands for another, I guess, 200 of those. So that's why they increased it. Again, I'm fine with that. Well, so this is the whole thing, okay? I just would like to, we don't have to go on this for a long time, but a lot of people were up in arms, like, I bought one when there's 300 and now there's 500. Fuck off. What is the actual difference? Like, I just want to know what is the difference? If Cactus Canyon said tomorrow, you know what, we've got demand for 2000 limited editions, good for you. Get more of them out there. Yeah, well I remember Hobbit when there was the limited edition which was limited to I think 1500 units, but then there was the special edition which was a higher model which had no known limit. No number. The small edition which was a without. Wizard of Oz, Elvira, you thought you were buying a limited edition? No, here's a 40th, we put a little different paint on it. Call it what you want. So Cactus Canyon, if they've got 500 or 1000 more sales, come out with the Gunslinger edition or something. Who cares? So really what I'm asking is, with the companies that have done this, because they're examples so Hobbit they've done it, Wizard of Oz they've done it, probably other models and C.J.C. did it. Vaults. You know, all that kind of stuff. So everyone that's up in arms about it says, pretty much, I say everyone, I'm obviously being a bit too generalist here, but are like, oh, that is terrible, you know, I'm going to take my money elsewhere and that company's going down. Really? Boo hoo. $A7B HI & yakinkai brandeis on Been shifted our I'm always that fear of, okay, we're gonna put out 3000 limited of these games and then they don't sell 3000 so they probably do a safer number and go under. I'm waiting for Guns and Roses to sell out at 5000. I think that would be, I have no idea what the number is at. Eric said they will. Yeah. Limited edition. That's when it's a commodity, man. You made a good point, Jeff, about like, or was it not? I can't remember. Well, thanks. Would it have been me if you said good point? Yeah, about people saying like, well, I'm out. Like, it usually doesn't happen, even when they're like, I'm gonna do, like, Elvira, if you're on the backorder for it, it's now gonna cost this much more, and you can cancel or you can pay the extra. And I think we, I actually got an email about Godzilla, because they advertised it, I'm not sure if anyone in Australia was talking about this, but they advertised it for a certain price after the price hike and, you know, with the current Australian dollar, and they advertised it and then people bought it and then they wrote an email saying like, and it wasn't like, Hey, sorry we messed up the calculations. They basically just said like, hey, like every product, if you ordered it after a certain date and you haven't got it yet, it's going to cost like $165. I can't remember how much it was. It wasn't significant, but there was no real explanation about it in terms of, yeah, and everyone just eats it. And the point is, once you're in pinball, I'm sure there are the people will say, hey, I know some guy who was really into pinball and he had 20 machines and then he just like got out completely. He was just like, fuck this, fuck this hobby. I'm out. That is a very rare occurrence and it's because of everything else that pinball involves. You know, the community, people you know, they become your friends. Leaving pinball or something collecting machines sometimes means that like you're, I guess, you're done with everything and what I'm saying is that because we're all friends we can't get out of pinball and that's why everyone's fleecing us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I know what you're saying and I think Jeff's finding it boring because it went over his head, he didn't understand what you're saying. I get begin what you're saying there is and and maybe I know you know I say maybe I'm being defensive because I'm in the industry. Get to the point. Fuck off you cunt. What I'm saying is it's that language about all their fleecing people are they are they actually being these evil corporations that are fleecing people and you know using third world labor to make their machines and oh my god they're awful that Gary Stern is the devil. Is that really what it's about? I'll tell you what it's about. I'm fucking sick and tired of all this fucking price gouging and get out your wallets, get out your wallets. I'm sick of it. It's time for our sponsor of the week. Which no doubt will be about price gouging. People have questioned these sponsors. Are they real or are you two just making fun? How dare they say that? We bring you deals from around the world and you think we're trying to crack a joke or make a quick buck? If you think we're full of it, go online right now and type in this week's sponsor, WeirdShitYouCanBuy.com. Christmas is coming and you need to find the perfect gift. WeirdShitYouCanBuy.com has it all and we proudly endorse these fine products. Like the philosophic book, Can Holding a Fart Kill You? Or a holiday snow globe with two reindeer, fucking. There's the absent father action figure. Bigfoot's balls sour candy. We can't make this stuff up. Go to weedshityoucanbuy.com today. Alright, enough of this kind of marketplace talk, but we thought, you know, somebody had to do it on TPN because no one talks about marketplaces without obviously promoting their own distributorship. Uh, coincidentally, uh, I'll, everyone take a look at Flippin' Out, they do wonderful things. I kid, I kid. What do you think of their marketplace thing, you know, the, the, the price up, price is down? It's hard for me to relate because I'm not buying a lot of these things, I'm not looking on eBay and the marketplace. Do you listen to that? It's pretty popular. I do like it and I actually find it quite interesting, but I also look at any prices that they mention in the US and I don't feel that they relate to what's going on here. I don't know if you feel the same, Ryan. Yeah, he should definitely have an Australian version. No, I think the segment works because it's just the banter between Dennis and Zack. It has nothing to do with the actual content. It's just Dennis rolling his eyes at Zack being an idiot and I think they both know that. Ryan, we kind of passed over it, but Jesse was on last week. What did you think when we were talking about the now defunct JesseJayspinball podcast? Are you announcing it dead, Geoff, again? Mmm... I didn't get a strong feeling... Did you, Marty, get a strong feeling from Jesse that it was coming back? I didn't get a feeling at all that it had gone. It's just not on air. Do we have to talk about this every single time that I fucking come on the podcast? Yes, we do. Yeah, absolutely, obviously. Fine, Ryan. Let's talk about your dates.