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#15 - Pinball News! Stern Toppers, Deeproot Debut, AP Hot Wheels, JJP GnR!

A Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·33m 24s·analyzed·Sep 10, 2020
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

September 2020 pinball industry analysis: Stern toppers, Deep Root debut prep, and Jersey Jack's GnR timing strategy.

Summary

Host Marv discusses major pinball industry news as of September 9, 2020, focusing on Stern's topper strategy and pricing dynamics, Deep Root's impending reveal with hammer-tested playfields, American Pinball's Hot Wheels streaming challenge, and Jersey Jack's delayed Guns N' Roses announcement. The episode emphasizes business fundamentals behind pinball pricing and questions whether Deep Root's playfield quality will be a sustainable competitive advantage.

Key Claims

  • Stern is releasing Avengers Infinity Quest via Deadflip stream on September 9, 2020 at 5 PM Central Time

    high confidence · Host states 'as of this recording it is September 9th 2020 and of course later today is when the new Avengers Infinity Quest pin is going to be revealed via dead flip stream'

  • Elvira toppers are priced at approximately $1,000 with only 200 units produced

    high confidence · Host notes 'the topper was, I believe, $1,000 and everybody just lost their shit right afterwards. and I think to my knowledge they're only going to have 200 of these toppers total'

  • Stern has a $100 across-the-board price increase planned for 2021

    medium confidence · Host mentions 'I believe, I thought there was a thread on Pinside that was talking about the cost of pins going up in 2021, I believe. I think it's $100 across the board'

  • Deep Root's reveal is scheduled for later in September 2020, likely as a live stream

    medium confidence · Host states 'their reveal is incoming later this month' with understanding from 'different people' about possible stream, but acknowledges NDAs prevent specific date disclosure

  • Jersey Jack teased a major announcement on May 27, 2020, which was 15 weeks (105 days) before this September 9 episode

    high confidence · Host confirms 'Jersey Jack put out a teaser back on May 27th' and calculates '105 days ago. Legitimately, it was 15 weeks ago'

  • Host played Raza (Deep Root's prototype) in November 2019 and had critical concerns about gameplay despite liking the animation and theme

    high confidence · Host states 'I did have a chance to play Raza when it was in prototype stage in November. And yeah, I had a bunch of critical things to say about it. I did not enjoy my time on it'

  • Escher Lefkoff won American Pinball's Hot Wheels speed-run challenge with a time of 57 seconds

    high confidence · Host confirms 'I believe Escher Lefkoff won that with 57 seconds and Carl D'Angelo finished right behind him, just one second behind him'

Notable Quotes

  • “Stern is pricing these simply because they sell. That is what the market is demanding.”

    Host (Marv) @ ~06:45 — Explains Stern's rationale for high topper pricing despite community backlash; core business principle that prices reflect market demand rather than manufacturer preference

  • “BOM is simply just a comprehensive inventory of everything you need to manufacture a product. That's legitimately what it is.”

    Host (Marv) @ ~13:20 — Clarifies common terminology confusion in pinball community; educates listeners on business fundamentals relevant to pricing discussions

  • “I really do hope. I hope they're successful. I want to see them be successful because any new pinball is great for the community because it'll just push other people forward.”

    Host (Marv) @ ~24:30 — Expresses genuine support for Deep Root despite competitive concerns; reflects community interest in ecosystem diversity

  • “If Deep Root is able to do what they're claiming they're going to do, where these playfields are hammer tested, where they don't dimple... what is stopping the rest of the industry from adopting that nearly immediately?”

    Host (Marv) @ ~20:15 — Questions sustainability of Deep Root's hammer-tested playfield as competitive advantage; raises concerns about reverse engineering and rapid industry adoption

  • “May 27th was legitimately 105 days ago. Legitimately, it was 15 weeks ago. Think about that for a second.”

    Host (Marv) @ ~31:00 — Emphasizes the extended delay since Jersey Jack's teaser, suggesting either production issues or strategic timing miscalculation

  • “I think that's really what it is. All these things got to line up together, and I'd rather see them take their time, get this lined up properly.”

    Host (Marv) @ ~38:45 — Defends Jersey Jack's delayed release strategy as necessary for operational readiness rather than competitive failure

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyDeep Root PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyAmerican PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyChicago Gaming CompanycompanyAvengers Infinity Questgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack's delayed Guns N' Roses release interpreted as strategic workflow alignment rather than competitive failure, positioning for sustained release cadence

    medium · Host defends strategy: 'if you're Jersey Jack and you're trying to really put your feet down on the ground and stake your claim, you're not trying to do it pin against pin' but instead focus on establishing #2 market position

  • ?

    event_signal: American Pinball launching Hot Wheels streaming challenge on Twitch/YouTube with weekly competitive modes and player participation

    high · Host confirms 'American Pinball Hot Wheels right now is doing a challenge of sorts that's online for streamers on Twitch, on YouTube' with Escher winning speed-run mode at 57 seconds

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pinball community expressing concern about sustainability of pricing increases and perception that hobby is becoming unaffordable for average players

    medium · Host notes 'this also got a lot of people concerned in terms of, well, we're getting priced out of the hobby' but contextualizes as normal market dynamics

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Deep Root's hammer-tested playfield innovation questioned as sustainable competitive advantage given risk of rapid reverse engineering by larger competitors

    medium · Host argues 'what is stopping the rest of the industry from adopting that nearly immediately?' and predicts 'we would see that turnaround within a year maybe two at most'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern planning $100 across-the-board price increase for 2021 product lineup

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.100

0:00
Welcome back everybody to another edition of a pinball podcast. I appreciate you guys being here today and we have a lot of things to cover a lot of ground to cover today. We're going to be talking about Stern. We're going to be talking about Deep Root and we're going to be talking about Jersey Jack and we might even throw a little bit of American pinball in there too. and yeah so that's what we're going to talk about today now obviously as of this recording it is September 9th 2020 and of course later today is when the new Avengers Infinity Quest pin is going to be revealed via dead flip stream here at I believe it's 5 p.m U.S. Central Standard Time later today so I'm really excited to see how that's going to play out I'm curious how it's going to play there's some little details that I have found out that I'm super excited about but I'm not going to mention it here. We're going to let them do the reveal, and hopefully it all comes out. I'm sure it will. And we will have a video about that a little bit later, either tonight or tomorrow, if you're listening to this and it's present time. If you're listening to this way after this, then feel free to go check out my YouTube at Marv Loco, and you'll see that video there. And then, of course, our next podcast, we will be talking about the Avengers Infinity Quest reveal in total. So obviously we'll have a lot more information on how it shoots and how it plays. And yeah, I can't see it playing bad, to be honest with you. I have high expectations for it, and I fully believe those expectations will be met. So moving on, let's go ahead and talk toppers, because this is the big trend that's going on right now that everybody's talking about in pinball. And if you haven't seen it yet, Kerry Hardy, he did some hilarious skits on his YouTube channel dealing with the toppers. I fully encourage you to watch those. You know, if you've seen the Ninja Turtles topper, you'll realize pretty quick. I don't know if you guys have seen it yet. Go check it out if you haven't. I'm curious about what exactly went into this topper. Now, to be fair, I am not a topper fan. If you've heard me talk about it before, I just don't really care about toppers. I don't pay attention. to the top part of the back box. I don't look up there. I have no idea. Even at Indisc, which is a big tournament out in California at the beginning of this year, I played on Black Knight four or five times in a row, had no idea there was a topper up on there. No idea the prototype topper was there until somebody notified me afterwards. Now, talking about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles topper, it really has me kind of confused exactly what they were going for here, because if you look at it, you notice like the very first thing that really stuck out to me immediately was that the logo on the topper they had the Ninja Turtles logo but it's literally right above the logo on the back glass so it's almost like logo-ception I really don't know how else to describe it it's a logo on top of a logo and it's it's a really odd decision it's almost like it's an oversight with whoever was developing this particular product and whoever okayed it. I'm not quite sure how they didn't see that and they weren't thinking, you know, this kind of looks off. We need to maybe make a change a little bit. I think the rest of it looks fine. I mean, it is what it is. We can go in all day long about why toppers cost what they cost, which we will here in just a few with Elvira.

Most casual pinball players prioritize whether games shoot right, have fun rules/shots, and feature appealing themes—playfield quality (dimpling) ranks fourth or fifth

medium confidence · Host generalizes based on conversations: 'Most people just care, does the game shoot right? Are the rules fun? Are the shots fun? Playfield, how good the playfield actually is in terms of dimpling, usually is the fourth or fifth thing on the list'

Raza
game
Guns N' Rosesgame
Hot Wheelsgame
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
Ninja Turtles topperproduct
Elvira topperproduct
Rick and Mortygame
Pirates Treasuregame
Kerry Hardyperson
Escher Lefkoffperson
Carl D'Angeloperson
Marv (Host)person
Deadfliporganization

medium · Host references Pinside thread discussing cost increases: 'I believe, I thought there was a thread on Pinside that was talking about the cost of pins going up in 2021, I believe. I think it's $100 across the board'

  • ?

    community_signal: Host played Deep Root's Raza prototype in November 2019 and had significant gameplay concerns despite appreciating animation and theme integration

    high · Host states 'I did have a chance to play Raza when it was in prototype stage in November. And yeah, I had a bunch of critical things to say about it. I did not enjoy my time on it'

  • $

    market_signal: Topper market showing strong secondary market demand with resales above MSRP, validating Stern's premium pricing strategy

    high · Host observes 'a lot of these toppers, they go for more than what they were new. That's just the way it is' and notes this reflects FOMO-driven scarcity pricing in luxury goods

  • ?

    announcement: Avengers Infinity Quest official reveal scheduled for September 9, 2020 at 5 PM Central via Deadflip stream

    high · Host states 'as of this recording it is September 9th 2020 and of course later today is when the new Avengers Infinity Quest pin is going to be revealed via dead flip stream here at I believe it's 5 p.m U.S. Central Standard Time'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Guns N' Roses game delayed 15+ weeks since May 27 teaser with no substantial announcement, suggesting production or operational readiness issues

    high · Host confirms 'May 27th was legitimately 105 days ago. Legitimately, it was 15 weeks ago' and expresses confusion about timing: 'I don't understand the timing of putting out that teaser'

  • ?

    product_concern: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles topper criticized for redundant logo placement (logo on top of backglass logo), suggesting oversight in design/approval process

    high · Host states 'the logo on the topper they had the Ninja Turtles logo but it's literally right above the logo on the back glass so it's almost like logo-ception' and questions how this design passed approval

    • 3:29
    But overall, yeah, the topper, it kind of throws me off seeing the logos together. So I'm curious how that came about. I don't know if we'll ever get an explanation about how that happened, but I'm very curious about it. Moving on to the Elvira topper, we saw this kind of debut. I forgot where it was. Maybe it was Little Shop of Horrors or something like that to where they revealed this topper.
    3:53
    And of course, the topper was, I believe, $1,000 and everybody just lost their shit right afterwards. and I think to my knowledge they're only going to have 200 of these toppers total. Now keep in mind this particular product is an add-on to a machine that was already a pinball machine that didn't have a pro. They were premiums. I think they even had, I don't know if they called it a Super LE. I remember they had one that cost a good chunk of change with the Elvira couch cushion or a piece of the couch or whatever it was with it. That was odd to me, but that's what they did, and people paid for it. So it's not entirely crazy to think that a topper coming onto a high-end machine or a high-end product would also be a high-end price itself.
    4:44
    And we could go all day long about, well, this is priced crazy, this is that, this is this. The bottom line is, guys, Stern is pricing these simply because they sell. That is what the market is demanding. Now, us that don't want to pay that, of course, we're going to voice that, hey, we're not going to pay. We're not going to pay this amount of money. But the toppers obviously are selling. If you look on third party, a lot of these toppers, they go for more than what they were new. That's just the way it is. And that's the case of having something that is limited. When something's limited, that price is naturally going to shoot up in most cases. And this happens to be one of those cases where it does shoot up. So keep that in mind, especially when we're discussing pricing, that even if we don't agree with it, the fact is that this is something that Stern has figured out that is their price point to what the customers are willing to pay. And they're going to get it. So there's no other reason for them to go down lower. I can't think of any reason for them to go down. and I hear other people oftentimes comparing it to, you know, Rick and Morty's topper. And to be honest with you, I am on a Rick and Morty. Now I'm way down the line. I'm something like 695 or somewhere around there. So I imagine I won't even see my pen until 2025 at this rate, but I've also been able to play on a Rick and Morty on location that has the topper with it. I've held the topper. I've looked at it. It's truthfully, it's not really anything special. I don't feel like it adds anything more onto the pen itself. Now, it's cool that that was added in on top of the price that it was, but when we're legitimately comparing the toppers, I mean, the one topper that really stands out in my mind is the Jersey Jack Pirates topper on their collector's edition. Now, I've seen that in person, and that sucker looks awesome. And I can understand why the pricing would be what it is if a topper looked like that. But the bottom line is, is Stern has the topper market cornered. If we're going to judge it by something that Spooky puts out or Hot Wheels put out with their little topper, I don't know if anybody's even making that comparison, but that's the comparison I'm making. It's like I understand why it's priced what it is. It's not something I would personally pay. It's out of my range for what I find utility for. But that's the free market. If nobody buys those toppers at that price, we'll see that price come down pretty quick. And that segues us to the next thing. I believe, I thought there was a thread on Pinside that was talking about the cost of pins going up in 2021, I believe. I think it's $100 across the board. And this also got a lot of people concerned in terms of, well, we're getting priced out of the hobby. But there's a lot of reasons why the prices continuously go up. Now, it was about two years ago, maybe even a little bit longer, when, or it might even be about three years ago to this point, now I think about it, there was a thread on Pennside right after Jersey Jack's Pirates was announced and shown. It was something like a dark day for Stern, and everybody's going nuts, like this changes the game, this is that, this is this. And I even put in that thread, one of my few posts on Pennside, I was talking about, you know, this right here, let's put this in perspective, this means that $6500 pros for Stern is right around the corner. Here we are three years later and it creeping up towards that And there reasons for that There is extreme reasons for that And a lot of it has to do with competitive reasons And a lot of it has to do with the way that the market is and the way that the ecosystem of how pinball sells is And a lot of people aren't taking this into consideration. When you have direct competition, even if that competition is way behind you, obviously Stern and Jersey Jack are playing in the same playground as is Spooky as is American Pinball as is Chicago Gaming right those are the main ones I can't even say Deep Root is playing there yet because they haven't shown anything yet so I'm just going with those but considering the pricing across the board it is natural that the prices of the big dog which is Stern the one that sells the most, the one that is most relative, it is natural that those prices are going to creep up, especially when all their competition has prices that are at higher price points than them. All right. Now, yeah, it sucks. I agree with you. If I could pay $5,000 for an LE, that would be great. I would be happy. But realistic, we're being realistic about it. The fact is, is that Stern's price points are going to keep creeping up as long as their competition price points remain high because they have the bigger name. They have no reason to maintain smaller pricing, especially, especially if their margins remain steady, especially if the profits remain steady. This is this is part of a business. This is what happens over the years. And we don't know. A lot of people, this is the other thing that's happened. For whatever reason, people really get stuck on BOM. They really do, which stands for build of materials. And I've been guilty of this, even though I know damn well what BOM actually means. And I noticed there's several podcasts around that use this terminology incorrectly. As a result, there's a lot of people on message boards that use the terminology incorrectly. And here's what BOM simply is. And I know this because of my background in business. BOM is simply just a comprehensive inventory of everything you need to manufacture a product.
    10:39
    That's legitimately what it is. It's basically a list. Now, if we're talking about actual cost of something, then we're looking at basically something like cost of goods sold, COGS, which is basically your cost of material and your labor for the product. That's essentially what it would be. And so that's something that people need to really start taking into consideration.
    11:05
    And, you know, there's other parts to it, too, that people don't think of in terms of just the overall cost of these machines. Why do they cost what they cost? Well, there's other costs to running a business. There is plenty of other costs to running a business that's just not your bomb or your cogs. I mean, we're talking about there's indirect cost, there's direct cost, there's, I mean, you can really get into the weeds when you discuss business costs. Now, keep in mind, let's just keep this simple right now. If you are a big manufacturer or you're a big company that puts out pinball, you've got to pay designers, you've got to pay coders, you've got to pay labor, people that are on the line. You have to pay people that are investing in your company. You might owe money to a bank, a note, whatever it could be. You might have property taxes. You have utilities to pay. You have insurance to pay. You have marketing to pay. You have research and development to pay for. You have variable costs on different raw materials that could change throughout the year. I mean, there's so much. There's administration costs. There's accountants. I mean, there's all this stuff that I know that we as pinball fans don't really take into consideration.
    12:34
    And all we see is, well, this pinball machine that I'm looking at buying should just cost XYZ because it only took XYZ to build. And there's so many soft costs and hidden costs that you're not even thinking of. But I've never sold in my history in business, I've never sold a product solely based on how much it costs for that product just to be made. There's so many other things that are baked into that cake. Now, we can simplify it to that point to make a quick decision. But when you're really digging down into it, especially when you're dealing with luxury items, there's a lot more hidden cost in there that people just don't take into consideration. And, you know, this isn't to say, hey, don't feel that they're not, you know, if you don't like the prices, it's perfectly fine. That's the joy of being a consumer. You can decide that you don't like the prices, and you can voice your opinion on why you don't like the prices. You can voice all day long, I don't want to pay that. And that's the free market. You don't have to pay what Stern is charging. You don't have to pay that. If you want to wait to buy used, you can wait to buy used. I mean, we do that with a lot of other products around that are luxury items, you know, and that's just that's just the reality of it. But, you know, to put the bed, I would encourage people to really start considering what what they're really saying when they when they say bomb. Like this is the material. Like it's just it's not it's not like what you think it is. Let's just put it that way. So anyhow, tonight, like we're talking about Avengers Infinity Quest, go check it out. Let me get a sip of green tea real quick.
    14:17
    All right, that feels better, man. It's gotten cold here. My wife still has our temperature at like 65. I feel all my allergies coming at the same time. I'm trying not to sneeze. I'm trying not to cough. I'm just trying to exist right now while talking. So thank you guys for bearing with me here. All right, moving on to Deep Root. We realize, obviously, their reveal is incoming later this month. From my understanding, this is what I understand from I've heard from different people, that the reveal still don't know the date exactly. Nobody's really saying a date because obviously people have signed NDAs, which is perfectly fine. From my understanding that there's a possible stream that will come out of this, some type of live reveal. Now, if that's been said publicly, I apologize. I don't know if it has or not, but that's just my understanding on how this is going to work. And I was kind of thinking that before anyways. I could have swore I read that somewhere. So if not, I would be surprised. I would assume something like this would be live streamed to everybody, and it would be announced a little bit ahead of time.
    15:21
    Now, what I'm curious on, and I know a lot of people have been talking about this, about their hammer-tested play fields.
    15:28
    And I'm assuming that this is going to be a trademark and something that they're going to put on every single game, starting with Raza, making the assumption that Raza is their very first game, and they're not bringing any other games to their announcement. Now, I would love for them to bring another game, and we'll talk about that in just a few. But when it comes to this hammer-tested play field, and it comes to basically really deep root going all in, it seems like, on their quality of play field, which I can respect. But at the same time, I don't think it's as big of a deal that people are making it out to be, and I'll tell you why. Now, this isn't to say that everybody should be happy with dimples, that everybody should be happy with pulling, that everybody should be happy with chipping. We shouldn't be. We should always demand something be the best that it can possibly be. And I do believe that things can be better than how they are. But the reason why I don't think it's as big of a deal, I think if we really talk to a lot of different people that play pinball, outside of just flat out collectors, which is a small part to this small niche to begin with I honestly think that just the play field quality out of box is probably one of the last things somebody's thinking of. It's probably one of the last things somebody's thinking of when they're playing it on location. For me personally, the only type of quality play field I'm looking at when I'm playing on location, or even if I'm buying a used game, is just is the play field planked? If it's not planked, which means it makes the ball do all kinds of weird things, as long as the inserts aren't cupped, it's a newer game or things aren't crazed, then I'm just making sure it just plays decent. I don't care if it has dimples. I really don't. And even on my LEs, I have a Turtles LE, I have an Iron Maiden LE, I have an Avengers LE. I personally don't care if it gets dimples. Now, that doesn't mean other people shouldn't care. So what I'm getting back to is, is I believe the majority of people, and this is just based on me talking to a lot of different people in the hobby, not just competitive players. I'm talking about just people that are just general hobbyists that just like playing pinball. Most people just care, does the game shoot right? Are the rules fun? Are the shots fun? And is the theme fun? That plays a big part to it, too. Playfield, how good the playfield actually is in terms of dimpling, usually is the fourth or fifth thing on the list. It just is for the majority of people. Now, I can understand the collector that this would be one of the top things, and that's totally understandable. I get it. But here's why I don't think it's really that big a deal. Because, quite simply put, if Deep Root is able to do what they're claiming they're going to do, where these playfields are hammer tested, where they don't dimple, They look great. I mean, that would be excellent.
    18:35
    But what is stopping the rest of the industry from adopting that nearly immediately? I mean, really, what would be stopping Stern from just going ahead and grabbing a pen and reverse engineering it?
    18:50
    What would stop them from doing that? Like any of these other companies, all they have to do really is just pay attention, see if the consumers really care about that, and the bad part is if it turns out that a lot of collectors and consumers do care about it what do you think is going to happen they're going to add that to their product nearly immediately we would see that turnaround within a year maybe two at most they would figure it out really quick because i i don't know maybe there's something about wood that's proprietary i don't know i haven't heard of that but what would really stop them from reverse engineering and figuring it out themselves and just applying it to their games. So that's why I really don't think it's really that big a deal. It's something to come out of the gate, I guess, and say, hey, look, we figured this out. We're taking pride in this. But then you got to add something else onto that. And I think really what needs to be added onto that is we need to see a dynamite theme that's not an original theme. We need to see a theme that people really, really want to see. You know, Harry Potter is one of those big themes that everybody's been talking about. I know some people have been talking about Back to the Future also. Games like that, I think that that's something that would really speak to the consumer, especially on top of having a hammer-tested play field. I think if you just lead with just hammer-tested play field, and that is really your primary selling point, don't think that that's going to work long term. It's going to work up front with your first release, maybe even your second release, but nothing is stopping these other companies from figuring it out themselves. and doing the same thing. They don't have to even call it hammer tested. They could simply just say, our pinball machines are pinball tested.
    20:38
    I mean, it's, I don't know. Maybe I'm missing the big point in all this. And I really am rooting for Deep Root. And I did have a chance to play Raza when it was in prototype stage in November. And yeah, I had a bunch of critical things to say about it. I did not enjoy my time on it. I mean, there wasn't any rules really or anything like that. and it didn't have anything to do with the coding. It had 100% to do with how it played, and it just wasn't a fun player. Now, you could see the potential in it. You could see that the animation, that was really cool. I really like that, and I actually don't mind the theme. I like zombies. I like aliens. Put them together. I mean, badass. I'm ready to go. But I am a little bit concerned about what exactly they're doing now at the gate, and I really do hope. I hope they're successful. I want to see them be successful because any new pinball is great for the community because it'll just push other people forward. It'll push other manufacturers forward. It'll push the whole industry forward, the whole hobby forward. And that's exactly what we need. But at the end of the day, though, guys, if the play field really makes that big a difference, the fact is, is all we're going to see is mass adoption across the entire industry. that is how this works across any industry unless you have somehow you have it just totally proprietary to where nobody can figure it out even if they do figure it out they can't actually do it I mean I just don't see it being a difference maker long run I really don't and I mean hopefully there's a dynamite thing behind there should be I would really love to see Deep Root come out and go ahead and bring out more than one game. That's what I would like to see. They've taken so long here. I just feel like if they release Raza and Raza only, it might get some people excited early on, but at the same time, man, it's just the expectations, they were built up so high at the beginning, and then they went down quick, and then there was so much silence. I feel like if they want to get anything on their side, its consistency with what themes they're going to bring in and how good are those themes going to be integrated with shots with code and that's really what's going to matter now in terms of what else they're bringing i mean it's already been widely speculated i think confirmed at this point that the way that their their machines are going to work is going to be a little bit different compared to the way it is now you know it wouldn't surprise me if that means like the games are going to be shipped differently. And shipping, that's another thing, another soft cost that we were talking about earlier. Shipping, that's what I forgot. But yeah, I don't know if the Deep Root games might be shipped differently. I don't know if they'll be put together slightly different. You know, it's been talked about all along. Their cabinets are going to be a little bit different to begin with. So that's definitely something that obviously is probably going to happen. There's got to be something different brought to the table. And I personally, I am more curious to see what else Deep Root brings outside of just hammer-tested play field. That is where my peak curiosity is. And I hope they hit home runs. I really do. All right, so moving on real quick, we'll just talk about American Pinball right before Jersey Jack. American Pinball Hot Wheels right now is doing a challenge of sorts that's online for streamers on Twitch, on YouTube. And we just had our first week there. I stream over on Marv. The channel's just called Marv on Twitch. Now, I used to do that a long time ago with Call of Duty and everything, and I'm adding some pinball content onto it, but mainly my only pinball content on there is just for this Hot Wheels Challenge. It was a lot of fun. We did the speed run of it to where you got to hit so many shots in a row following the inserts to basically start victory lap multiball. and I believe Escher Lefkoff won that with 57 seconds and Carl D'Angelo finished right behind him, just one second behind him and that's hauling ass. My best time personally is 102 and I had to do everything in my power to get that 102 and I think I ended up hitting 125 as my best run this time around and that was just a couple of clunks here and there but you got to be damn near perfect But check that out if you interested in something and you watch you happen to watch pinball on streams or whatever That something you might want to be looking for There plenty of people that are streaming it now just to play in that challenge I think this week is actually playing through the modes. I haven't looked through it yet, but I think it's best score on the modes for this week. So that's something to keep in mind right there. All right, moving straight on to Jersey Jack. Guns and Roses.
    25:25
    Another sip of tea real quick. I'm starting to lose my voice. Guns and Roses. I assume that is the theme. Still unconfirmed, but confirmed. Wink, wink.
    25:40
    Jersey, I honestly, I'm really curious as to what the exact strategy is for Jersey Jack when it comes to releasing this pinball machine. And I was looking into it more and more, and legitimately, Jersey Jack put out a teaser back on May 27th about how I don't even remember off the top of my head I think it was about how innovations here pinball's about to change or something like that and it was May 27th that they put it out and it was right around the same time that Stern came out with Ninja Turtles right? and now we're already on the same day as the reveal of Stern's next game which is Avengers Infinity Quest and yet we have not heard really anything else about this possible release from Jersey Jack. I mean, we've seen hints of it, but May 27th was legitimately 105 days ago. Legitimately, it was 15 weeks ago.
    26:39
    Think about that for a second. That's 15 weeks. And it just, I don't understand the timing of putting out that teaser. Like I was really excited when it first came out and I was expecting something to be announced a week later and there was nothing. And now here we are 15 weeks later and there's all these other things firing on all cylinders for everybody else. And so it just makes me wonder what exactly is going on over there. And I have some theories to it that I'll talk about here in just a few. And it's just, you know, I, I don't know if it's something that maybe production got backed up. Maybe they just simply jumped the gun and putting out that little teaser and they They were trying to steal Thunder from Stern, but I don't understand the timing of it. And I would have to think that based on what some people have said on Jersey Jack's podcast, specifically the owner or the main person now, I forget his name, younger guy, but the main person of the whole thing, they were talking about basically competing with Stern, which means that you're going to have possibly certain pins that are going to be similar price points or maybe you're going to have pins that are more aimed towards location pinball. You know, I could see all things to do with that. But I think a lot of it has to do, too, with the volume and the velocity in which they're going to put out themes. They're going to put out new pins. And so if I had to make just a blind guess at this, like a shot in the dark of what's going on, I have to think that one of the reasons why Guns N' Roses is kind of taking its time to get here because they are ensuring that they're lining this release up for when everything is ready to go at the right moment. And I think that also means that they can easily jump to the very next theme when the time is here. So me personally, I would rather see them have plenty of time in between Wonka and Guns N' Roses than them have the same amount of time between Guns N' Roses and Toy Story, which is the rumored next pin coming out. So whichever one it could possibly be. It just, to me, this screams that, you know, there's a lot of people that are talking about, well, Jersey Jack, by not putting it out right now, they're missing out on orders. There's Sterns putting out all this. It's just piling up. You know, and I can see it from that point of view, but at the same time, if you're Jersey Jack and you're trying to really put your feet down on the ground and stake your claim, you're not trying to do it pin against pin. That's not what you're trying to do. your long-term strategy, you are more concerned, I would have to think 100% focused, and your entire workflow as a business, and that entire workflow needs to come together with this next release. That's what is the jumping off standpoint to get them to be, to get to the next pin. I think that's really what it is. All these things got to line up together, and I'd rather see them take their time, get this lined up properly. That way, after maybe four months after maybe six months the next pin's announced and we're off to the races on the next one and then again four six months off to the races on the next one i think that's the type of workflow that they really need and it wouldn't make any sense just to release a pin randomly right now if that workflow was not ready now if the workflow is ready it might make all the sense in the world maybe you just wait for avengers to die down a little bit and you put it up you're not concerned about deep root if you're jersey jack i wouldn't be concerned about that i would be more concerned than anything about how am I going to stake my claim at number two. If they can firmly become number two, then in the future, a few years from now, they can worry about digging at Stern a little bit more and catching up. But for now, I think it's more important just to firmly entrench your way to number two and make the distance between you and American Pinball, you and Deep Root, you and Chicago Gamings, you and Spooky. I think that's much more important from a logical perspective. And the logical perspective also says, let's make sure the workflows are all together so we don't have an extended period of time between pin releases. This makes sense to me. I don't know if it makes sense to you guys. That's just my shot in the dark theory on this. Because it would just make so much more sense, guys, if, say, October,
    31:07
    that Guns N' Roses is announced and they start coming out. And then, assuming we start to be able to have shows next year, somehow, maybe around TPF or sometime right before summertime, the next pin is announced and released. I mean, that's a decent workflow right there. And I think that that's the main thing. As a company, if you want to be recognized and you want to really start making an income, you have to be consistent. And when I talk about income, I'm meaning profit. If you want to be sustainable, you have to be consistent. And it's just not sustainable, really for anybody in the long run to release a new product like that every one and a half, two years, three years. It's tough. It is really, really tough. And, you know, I would like to see Jersey Jack really bring that in, really bring that closer, and that'll allow them to compete a lot better. So anyways, I'm going to wrap it up right there. We reached the 30-minute mark. I think that's about the best time to reach around. Yeah, giggity, that's what she said. To reach that time around there. So that way, you know, we can wrap this all up in a nice little bow. And it all makes total sense without too much rambling. But those are my general thoughts right now. I look forward to tonight. I do want to personally thank you guys. If you guys made it all this way this time, thank you guys so much for the views, for the subscribe, the comments. Even if they're critical comments, I appreciate you taking time out of your day to give any type of feedback that you have. I do read it all. I do try to reply to it all. I really do enjoy this. This is a great hobby. And I really look forward to later tonight when we reveal or when we see the reveal of Avengers Infinity Quest. And I can't wait to see how that shoots. And also, if you made it this far, we are announcing the winners of the giveaway that Zach was doing a few podcasts ago. We do have those winners drawn. I'm going to announce those at the top of the next podcast that's coming out, and we'll get all the details sorted out and get that all set up for you guys for the two winners that I know but I haven't announced yet. Other than that, though, you guys take care. You guys have a wonderful week, and enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks for listening, guys. Later.