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BDYETP 59: Fathom Revisited, 15 Ball Multiball, Doctor Who Review

Bro, Do you Even Talk Pinball·podcast_episode·1h 45m·analyzed·May 2, 2021
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Fathom Revisited pricing criticized; Heist gets 15-ball finale; major code updates across manufacturers.

Summary

Buffalo Pinball hosts discuss Haggis Pinball's Fathom Revisited remake in two editions (Classic at ~$7,300 USD, Mermaid at ~$9,000 USD), with community skepticism about flipper feel and pricing versus new Stern machines. They cover Multimorphic's 15-ball multiball update for Heist, code updates across manufacturers (JJP, Spooky, Chicago Gaming), and recent industry news including Pinball Hall of Fame's Vegas expansion and Pinball Brothers shipping Alien machines.

Key Claims

  • Haggis Pinball has sold out mermaid editions of Fathom Revisited

    high confidence · Kevin states 'they've pretty much sold out of the Mermaid editions'

  • Haggis Pinball has only built one production Kelts machine, shipped to Dr. John in Australia

    high confidence · Kevin: 'they've previously made kelts which to my knowledge they've shipped exactly one kelts they went to dr john in australia'

  • Heist multiball now features 15 balls, surpassing Apollo 13 for most balls in a multiball

    high confidence · Kevin: 'so sorry apollo 13 not the not the most balls in a multi-ball anymore that goes to heist'

  • JJP released code updates adding Wi-Fi/Bluetooth to multiple games including Hobbit and Guns N' Roses

    high confidence · Kevin describes JJP's expansion of Wi-Fi functionality: 'they just did it for was so i think that's everything except dialed in'

  • Flipper coil overheating issue on Guns N' Roses and Rick and Morty addressed via software update

    high confidence · Kevin: 'there's a software update to address that so on what game on guns and roses and a lot of actually uh rick and morty um skip had him on his hobbit bands on the flipper coil like they're overheating'

  • Pinball Brothers Alien machines are priced around $7,800

    medium confidence · Kevin: 'i think they were like in the seventy eight thousand dollar range' (likely $7,800 typo for 7800)

  • Haggis is partnering with other manufacturers beyond Chicago Gaming Company for classic game remakes

    high confidence · Nick: 'they had been exclusively working with chicago gaming on doing these remakes and now they're partnering up with another manufacturer'

  • Fathom Revisited Classic Edition uses original 1981 rule set; Mermaid Edition has enhanced 2.0 rules

    high confidence · Kevin lists specifications for both editions including 'original 1981 rule set' for Classic and 'enhanced 2.0 rule set' for Mermaid

Notable Quotes

  • “I'd rather have a restored Fathom, which I could probably get cheaper than the remake if it doesn't feel like the real thing.”

    Kevin Manning @ ~25 min — Core criticism of Fathom Revisited: hardware modernization cannot replicate original Bally flipper feel, undermining the remake's value proposition

  • “Will you be able to reliably tap pass? Because it's so critical on those Valley games being able to tap pass. And you have to do that. That fails. If they come out and you can't tap pass on it, then it's a failure in my opinion.”

    Kevin Manning (referencing Skip's point) @ ~28 min — Specific mechanical concern about Fathom remake: tap pass is signature Bally mechanic that modern hardware may not replicate accurately

  • “This is an unproven company, too. You know what I mean? Like, they have yet to prove themselves.”

    Kevin Manning @ ~20 min — Risk assessment of Haggis as a manufacturer given lack of track record beyond single Kelts release

  • “It's like a pretty-looking nightlight fathom, but it's not.”

    Kevin Manning @ ~26 min — Dismissive characterization of remake as cosmetic upgrade without authentic gameplay experience

  • “The flippers there's almost like a little delay on them compared to Williams at the time. They're distinct from the Williams at the time. They're way distinct from games today.”

    Kevin Manning @ ~24 min — Technical analysis of Bally flipper behavior that Fathom Revisited must replicate to feel authentic

  • “And then when it's loading up the 15 balls behind the crane, you just know it's about to go down.”

    Kevin Manning @ ~33 min — Praise for Multimorphic's dramatic presentation of 15-ball multiball in Heist finale

  • “You do not recreate the game. You've got the paint job, you've got the lights, whatever. It's not the same thing.”

    Kevin Manning @ ~26 min — Emphasis on why cosmetic remakes fail without mechanical accuracy

Entities

Haggis PinballcompanyFathom RevisitedgameKevin ManningpersonNick LanepersonMultimorphiccompanyHeist (Multimorphic)gameJersey Jack PinballcompanySpooky Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Pinball Brothers shipping first Alien units; new manufacturer entry into market with comparable gameplay to Highway Pinball but design variations

    high · Kevin: 'Pinball Brothers it has shipped the first alien... a new manufacturer is always a little bit of a... I hesitate a little bit to just throw a bunch of money at a brand-new manufacturer, but, you know, they got to prove themselves'

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis Pinball may have deliberately set higher pricing on Fathom to manage order volume and production constraints rather than maximize revenue

    medium · Kevin speculation: 'maybe it's like, sure, we can either make X number of dollars on 200 games if we price it higher, or we can make that same amount on 500 or 750 games if we price it lower... So we're going to lose the number of sales, but maybe the overall revenue that comes in is the same if they just price it higher'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong skepticism among hosts and referenced community members (Skip, Ian Harrow) about Fathom Revisited value and legitimacy as remake

    high · Kevin: 'I'd rather have a restored Fathom... if it doesn't feel like the real thing'; broader assessment that collector market will drive purchases despite concerns

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Community concern that modern hardware cannot replicate original Bally flipper feel/mechanics (tap pass, flipper delay) critical to authenticity of Fathom Revisited

    high · Kevin: 'I guarantee it's not going to feel the same. It's running on totally different hardware, totally different modern hardware.' Also: 'Will you be able to reliably tap pass? Because it's so critical on those Valley games... If they come out and you can't tap pass on it, then it's a failure'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.316

0:00
Coming up on this episode of Bro, Do You Even Talk Pinball? We're going to discuss Haggis' pinball reveal of Fathom Revisited. We're also going to do a segment on haikus, because we know everybody likes that. It's not even a joke. And then last but not least, we're going to review Doctor Who pinball. All that and more, coming right up. Double Super Jet Pod!
0:30
I need a ramp. I need a loop. I want targets I can hit. I need the scoop. I need a double super jetpack. That's my life.
0:45
That's right. And now, the Hall & Oates of pinball podcasting, Nick Lane and Kevin Manning of Buffalo Pinball. Whoop-boom-shakalaka. It's us. What's going on, everybody? It's another month, another hot stream for you guys with the latest pinball news. Kevin Manning here. Nick Lane on the other end. What's going on, Nick? It's hot because Kevin says it's hot. It's a hot stream. You've got to tell people it's hot. Otherwise, how are they going to know? I'm the cameraman. Can you get a little pan on me? That's better. Thank you.
1:18
What's going on? We got vaccinated this month, right? This is going. Next week, I'll be ready to be released into the wild. Yeah, I was just talking to... Our buddy Nick, I'm going to go out and play my first new pinball in a year plus. Going to go try Avengers. He got into the pandemic. He got into the operating business and put a machine out there. So I'll go play Avengers Pro. Looking forward to that. It'll be my first time playing that.
1:46
He's doing the Lord's work. He is. So Nick's going to eventually come over and play some Guns N' Roses and some Heist. Yeah, soon. Soon you're going to see Nick and Kevin in the same room playing pinball together. what is going on what's that shit then eventually we're gonna do a bro show yeah maybe soon i mean we're getting there like a couple weeks away maybe we'll we'll play some uh we'll do a special bro show to uh celebrate being vaccinated so we're getting there man we're almost we're almost there we just need four vaccinated bros and then we can do it i think it's gonna be you me martha jay we all got vaccinated like pretty much on the same yeah 48 hours yeah definitely to be vaccinated rob's vaccinated so now we can we can have everybody everybody yeah jeff's a little behind he's a couple weeks behind i think but he always is a little behind in life though is that right yep that's right awesome listen to this well uh here's the part everybody really waits for it's a time to thank our partners i think it's time for me to do the read right go go ahead all right all right all right thank we're kicking it off pin stadium if you if you didn't check it out check out our recent stream that we did with a brand new pin stadium concert editions for guns and roses they're awesome because they integrate with the hot rails so you know the the rails they go down the side of the pinball machine uh you tap into those for the uh the pin stadiums and it brings the hot rails to the top fills the whole play playfield with the light it's really cool really cool stuff uh check them out uh pinstadium.com use coupon code buffalo to save 10 the mod couple if you want to mod your pinball machine make it look great check out the mod couple pinball.com flipping out if you're looking to buy a new pinball machine flip n out pinball the letter n flip n out pinball.com zach will take care of you uh got all sorts of uh brand new pinball machines he takes machines in on trades you can get uh you can trade up to a newer game or buy a used one check them out pin side uh pin side went down last month and we all realized how much we missed it when it wasn't around so if you love pin side You missed Pinside when it was down. Make a donation. Hook them up. It's a great resource. I was able to go on there within the past week or so and got some help on fixing one of my games, which we'll talk about a little bit later. So great stuff over there at Pinside.com. Jersey Jack Pinball. You know them. You love them. They make the greatest pinball machines, the most beautiful pinball machines, the most fun to play, the best machines for your house. I love them. I've got five of them now because I like them so much. JerseyJackPinball.com. Pinball EDU. If you want to win a brand-new Stern pinball machine, visit pinballraffle.org. Support Joe Saeed and his great inclusive arcade, Spinner's Pinball, with your entry into the pinball raffle. You can win a brand-new Stern machine that's currently in production. Community Beer Works. I just saw on Facebook they're making a comeback. They're remodeling. They're ready to come out of this pandemic, kicking and screaming and roaring and all that fun stuff.
Chicago Gaming Company
company
Pinball Hall of Fameorganization
Pinball Brotherscompany
Alien (Pinball Brothers)game
Big Lebowskigame
Rick and Mortygame
Guns N' Rosesgame
Dr. Johnperson
Skipperson
Pin Monkcompany
?

licensing_signal: Shift in Bally classic game licensing partnerships: Haggis moving beyond exclusive Chicago Gaming relationship to work with multiple manufacturers for five-game classic series

high · Nick: 'you know they had been exclusively working with chicago gaming on doing these remakes and now they're partnering up with another manufacturer'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball Hall of Fame Vegas relocation and massive exterior signage indicate industry confidence in location-based play recovery post-pandemic

    medium · Kevin describes 60-foot 'PINBALL' sign on Vegas Strip as major marketing investment; venue recently reopened with soft launch moving to full operations

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Haggis Pinball lacks manufacturing track record; only one Kelts unit shipped despite orders from pandemic delays, raising credibility concerns for pre-order commitments

    high · Kevin: 'This is an unproven company, too... Like, they have yet to prove themselves. So you're taking a risk.'

  • $

    market_signal: Fathom Revisited pricing ($7,300–$9,000 USD) positioned as uncompetitive versus new Stern machines ($5,600+) offering more features, assets, and modern gameplay

    high · Kevin: 'at what price point would i be interested in... you can get a like a for fifty six hundred dollars you can get a brand new stern which is usually there's a license to it... and you're like okay 5600 phantom is is missing all that'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Multimorphic's 15-ball multiball in Heist represents narrative innovation unique to P3 platform; story-driven character abilities and staged gameplay

    high · Kevin: 'This is only something you can pull off on the P3, right? Getting narrative, like storyline, telling a story on the screen, on the play field.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Spooky Pinball expanding manufacturing facility; ongoing commitment to game production and updates

    medium · Kevin: 'Spooky pinball is expanding they're adding on to their uh manufacturing f[acility]' (quote cuts off but indicates expansion signal)

  • ?

    technology_signal: JJP implementing Wi-Fi/Bluetooth code updates across game catalog; flipper coil overheating addressed via software adjustment rather than hardware modifications

    high · Kevin: 'JJP can just issue code updates that fix it... if J.J.P. can just issue code updates that fix it, then that would be great.'

    • 4:44
    Communitybeerworks.com if you're in Buffalo and you want to grab a beer. Head on over there. TiltCycle. Check out TiltCycle.com to get some awesome art for your pinball arcade, your game room, your living room, wherever you want to put it. He takes old pinball parts. He goes and he dumpster dives for trash pinball parts, and he turns them into amazing artwork. So if you've seen the play field I've hanging on my wall, I've got a couple other pieces of art that have been transformed by Dan Burfield over at TiltCycle.com. Comet Pinball, you want to make your pinball machines look great, put LEDs in your inserts and your GI, update your old pinball machine, make it look modern, make it stand up with your guns and roses with the hot rails and the pin stadiums. Go to cometpinball.com. You can get kits, full Comet LED kits, or you can get individual bulbs. You can buy them in bulk. They've got the matrix system where you can add your own custom lighting to specific little parts of your pinball machines. Love their products. Check them out at Comet Pinball. the pinball mix pinball mix.com save 10 and get a free easter egg when you use coupon code buffalo at pinball mix you can take your tron and take it to the next level like mine or if you got a big buck hunter and you want to put i don't know what would you put on your big buck hunter i thought about it and i've got nothing no it's just gonna stick with a song on there chat's gonna have to help us out with that show tunes there you go show tunes on your big buck hunter you can do it of course corn slash show tunes at pinball mix.com and finally titan pinball uh makers of silicone rings to replace the rubber rings on your pinball machine they hold up great they look great you can clean them up uh they reduce the amount of dirt and and uh and rubber garbage on your pinball playfields uh that's important it is you don't want garbage on your playfield titanpinball.com use coupon code buffalo to save 10 on titan competition rings and also get some get a tight mat you can't use your coupon code on that but uh while you're getting it you should you should definitely uh get one of those because they're awesome boom that's our did it kevin good job all right let's do some news here's the tip it's the latest news so hot it's on fire thank you tim uh so up first is fathom is being re-released by haggis pinball so if you've ever was this a rumor or like i mean was this a rumor beforehand or was this a surprise to people it was i it was a surprise i didn't know about it yeah i hadn't heard a lot of uh you know typically there's rumor mill stuff where you know people are saying mandalorian and godzilla and back to the future these are all definitely confirmed coming from stern next no uh didn't hear anything about that from uh our friends over at haggis uh they're redoing Bally's Fathom.
    7:38
    So they're doing two editions of this game. They're doing a classic edition and a mermaid edition. Classic edition is just like, let's remake the original Bally Fathom with updated art, or updated mechanics, and basically you want a brand new in-box Fathom. That's the one you want to get. They're also making a mermaid edition, which is limited to 250 machines. And that has the original Fathom plus an updated uh 2.0 rule set it's got some rgb so the the numeric displays on the back they're full rgb and also has um apron where the instruction cards would go there's lcd screens there uh and so it's got a whole nother rule set it's got fancy art uh special trim so if you're looking at the pictures on the stream the ones you see in here are the uh this is these are pictures of the uh mermaid edition prototype so very fancy it's got this crazy art on the side that is reflective and looks cool um i mean it looks like a fathom but brand new which is cool right um the pricing is classic edition is 9500 australian dollars which comes out to about 7300 us dollars for the standard edition the classic edition and then the mermaid edition which is the version with the updated rules and all that fancy stuff is $11,500 Australian or just under $9,000 US. So, uh, that's, that's pricey for a fathom. If you ask me, what do you think? Well, you've talked about fathom in general before, as, as I think, you know, you and I like the game, but it's a fun game. It's a great looking game. I mean, we would talk about like restored fathoms going for like $5,000. And I remember talking about it on the stream. I talked about it on the podcast, but I'm just like, yeah. I mean, when you get into something like even just $5,000 for like a restored fathom, and there are probably more than that, right? It's just like you get into this range where you're competing against like a new Stern, right? That just offers a hell of a lot more in so many ways. So I think it's fantastic that Haggis is doing this. I think it's a smart move because it's a very well-liked and respected game. I think for the average pinball buyer or the average person who's into pinball and will buy pinball machines, I think it's just way too much for what you're getting. Again, I don't think Haggis is doing anything wrong by this. They need to make money. They need to charge the appropriate price to make this. But it is of no interest to me other than it's great that there's more fathoms out there. you know at what price point would i be interested in well you know if there's a four thousand dollar fathom that i can buy sure that's that's new because i i'm pricing it not what it and that's probably not in the realm of reality but i'm considering look you can get a like a for fifty six hundred dollars you can get a brand new stern which is usually there's a license to it like a real maybe expensive license assets and then they've got to design the um the visuals now they're on the lcd that you've got the soundtrack you've got more toys and mechs in the game all that stuff and you're like okay 5600 phantom is is missing all that right it's just a basic basic rules it's it's a long time ago for pinball we've come a long way doesn't mean it's not fun but you know the amount of the amounts of mileage you're going to get out of for the price doesn't add up so i think this is um this is great for the richie riches or the phantom super fans but for most of us and most people listening to this it's great that there's more fathoms in the world but it's not going to get my money unfortunately yeah i almost wonder if they priced it that way because they don't want to get a ton of orders because you know coming into this game they've they've so they've previously made kelts which to my knowledge they've shipped exactly one kelts they went to dr john in australia so they've only built one production pinball machine there's oh really there's more orders of that coming but it got delayed because of the pandemic and stuff like that so it's not like they have a massive manufacturing facility or anything like that so So maybe it's like, sure, we can either make X number of dollars on 200 games if we price it higher, or we can make that same amount on 500 or 750 games if we price it lower, but then we're not really tooled up for producing more. So we're going to lose the number of sales, but maybe the overall revenue that comes in is the same if they just price it higher and ship a couple fewer.
    12:19
    Yeah, I mean, look, I get that this is the number that they probably have to do to make it happen and the amount of volume that they could do. I think I'd be more excited if Stern was doing this or was it Chicago Gaming and they found a way to make this. Okay, let's even say $5,000. $5,000, then I'm going, man, do I want a Fathom for $5,000, a brand new Fathom? Because you know they can do it for that price point. right because of the investment you know that they can do and still make some money so then it becomes interesting but as it is right now you know this this does nothing for me unfortunately yeah i think that's the other interesting you mentioned chicago gaming i think that's the other interesting point to bring up is you know they had been exclusively working with chicago gaming on doing these remakes and now they're partnering up with another manufacturer so there's not like an exclusivity there for uh cgc that you know there's another company that's able to get these Maybe they're just going to focus on the older licenses and do the classic ballets, and CGC's going to do the more modern games. Who knows? Or maybe CGC's out of it, and they're going to make their own new games from now on because there's a rumor that they're making a new game. So who knows?
    13:28
    So it's cool to see these classic games that have this high demand. Fathom is one of these games that is just, like you said, the price has gone through the roof on it. So it makes sense. Kind of like Medieval Madness when CGC did that one first. It was a no-brainer for that to be the first game because it was so expensive. And actually, they were able to come in under what it was going for at the market price. So I think that came out at like $8,000, and it was selling for around $10,000 at the time. So everybody was like, yep, let's go in. Let's get a brand-new one for even less. So it made a lot of sense.
    14:02
    But I wanted to jump back to the Flyer has the game features and the model matrix. So the Classic Edition, you get a cabinet-mounted 3.5-inch display for service menu, full RGB LEDs, inserts, and general illumination. That's for both. Full RGB seven-segment score displays on both, so you get the RGB score displays on both.
    14:31
    Brush stainless steel, brush trim and components on the Classic. a single six inch speaker and the original 1981 rule set so uh those are classic edition so exclusive mermaid edition stuff is enhanced 2.0 rule set with new callouts and music mirrored stainless steel trim mirrored play field components custom five speaker sound system reflecto cab metallic reflective luminescent cabinet art dual apron 6.8 inch lcd screens and ambient below cabinet lighting. So there's some nice upgrades. You know, you get everything all mirrored out and looking good. So there's a lot of collectors who like that stuff, and they'll willingly pay the extra for it. So the other thing that – so I listened to the podcast on Pinball Profile,
    15:27
    and they – so the folks from Haggis were on there, and they were talking about how not only are they going to do fathom they're going to do four more bailey classic games so they have an agreement to do five total classic baleys you can this is this was weird to me like i would never do this but obviously again this is not my i'm not the market for this so you could if you want to reserve say number 25 for all five of these classic Valley games. You can pre-order them now.
    16:02
    $1,500 deposit each. And you'll be guaranteed to be in on the run for the entire run. Five games. They haven't announced what the other four games are.
    16:13
    And I don't know. If it's going to have 2.0 rules. We haven't seen what the 2.0 rules are. And I think they've pretty much sold out of the Mermaid editions.
    16:24
    I'd like to throw $9,000 at it. Like, it's like, cool, I want the new rules. Like, what if they stink?
    16:31
    You know, what if it's not right? You know, it'd be nice. And this is an unproven company, too. You know what I mean? Like, they have yet to prove themselves. So you're taking a risk. Yeah, exactly. I mean, they come across as being legit. They're not out there like Robert Mueller saying this is easy or anything like that. You know, they admit that it's hard. First mention. First shitting on Deep Root. Well, how far are we into this podcast? We made it like almost 20 minutes. So we did it. All right. Um, yeah, so there's a lot of risk there and we've seen that with, with pinball is especially if you're going to grab a five game classic ticket. Um, they say the money goes in escrow and they'll never touch it. And if the games don't come out, you'll get your money back. But you know, you hand over money, you never really know what's going to happen to it. So, um, if you got the money, cool, go for it. They seem like good guys and, and hopefully they can pull it off. Look, I wish them well. I think, I think what they're doing for their business makes sense, you know, for, for my interest um it's too bad unless let's let one day i just have more money than i know what to do with if i was in that position i i and and the games worked and they're legit i i'd probably get one right i'm not that's not me that's not most people somebody brought up a good point and i think it was in the vr gaming discord see how i did that um that's the first vr comment yeah there you go and um they were talking about it and it might have been ian harrow and he said like look those classic ballets have a distinct feel to the flippers right like so this remake has to nail that it's got to feel like the most important thing on this i don't care what they put in the trim and whatever the 2.0 it's got to feel like a ballet i should be able to step up to it and it's got to feel 100 it can't be like 95 because if i'm paying that kind of money for a remake that's what it is those ballet the flippers there's almost like a little delay on them compared They're distinct from the Williams at the time. They're way distinct from games today. It's got to fucking feel like that for it to be legit and real because that's the way you really interact with a pinball machine is the feel of it. I guarantee it's not going to feel the same. It's running on totally different hardware, totally different modern hardware.
    18:38
    And to me, it's like you've got a pretty-looking nightlight fathom, but it's not. I'd rather have a restored Fathom, which I could probably get cheaper than the remake if it doesn't feel like the real thing. Yeah. Skip makes a good point. Will you be able to reliably tap pass? Because it's so critical on those Valley games being able to tap pass. And you have to do that. That fails. If they come out and you can't tap pass on it, then it's a failure in my opinion. Plain and simple. You did not recreate the game. You've got the paint job, you've got the lights, whatever. It's not the same thing. And that's what you need to... You're missing the most important thing. And again, you can get remakes or restored ones deeper maybe than this right now, so that's where I would put my money personally. Depends on the level of restore, right? If you get a high-end pincer restore, it's going to be more probably, or if you get just a refresh, a shop out, a nice looking version with maybe a hard top or something like that, then it'll be a little cheaper. Chris the pincer asked if I got a Zeppelin. Yeah, I was never in on Zeppelin, but as he said, he said he would get a Zeppelin over Fathom, and I would too. I mean, if you're talking about where you spend money, yeah yeah so this is the this is the crowd that like buys the collector's edition games and the top level games they just want to have the best of the best it doesn't matter what it costs it's a trophy too more than any it's a trophy first and foremost and that doesn't mean they don't love pinball and play pinball but number one trophy flexing number two is everything else right yeah exactly and you know the the uh cgc remakes they don't feel exactly the same as the originals either, but I think it's less critical on a modern game as long as you've got good, strong flippers and you can make the shots.
    20:16
    But it's not going to feel the same. It's different hardware. Sorry. It's just not. You've got a different game. You don't have a Fathom. This is the Fathom remake. Yeah, you've got the new Fathom. Cool. All right, well, that's Fathom Revisited. Looking forward to seeing more of that when they start showing off the updated rule sets and stuff like that. Hopefully we'll see some streams soon. so um all right up next is the big final heist so since our last uh podcast multimorphic released this massive update for heist which i had i talked about a little bit last time but i wasn't able to kind of talk freely about it because it hadn't been revealed yet but i was helping play test it so it brings in a whole different a whole like second i guess it's like a third act of the of the story right you bring in the the end where you actually like go in and you pull off the heist on mr big so it's like a six um stage wizard mode where you uh all the characters you've collected throughout the standard gameplay you um and depending on how well you did they have special abilities they can help you along the way um and each one gets a stage you play through that it tells the the story of of pulling off the heist on mr big uh really cool so i just highlighted the 15 ball multi-ball so i did a run through of the big final heist at the end of the big final heist is a 15 ball multi-ball so sorry apollo 13 not the not the most balls in a multi-ball anymore that goes to heist uh it does a really cool um state so it doesn't just dump them all at once it drops them all one at a time gives you about a second to fire them off and then it's just like chaos and madness and keeping it going as long as you can to collect all the jackpots um i had So if you want to check that out, that's on our YouTube channel. Also on our Twitch channel, I highlighted it over there. Highly recommended.
    22:08
    I like this because it does... This is only something you can pull off on the P3, right? Getting narrative, like storyline, telling a story on the screen, on the play field. And then the way the different modes work, they're all very specific to different features of the P3, especially the cat burglar mode where you're avoiding the lasers and shooting the scoops. Really cool stuff. Great choreography throughout it. And then when it's loading up the 15 balls behind the crane, you just know it's about to go down. So kudos to Multimorphic for really putting the finishing touch on this. I'm really looking forward to seeing this. Nick hasn't played this yet. I've been talking about it for a year now almost. And eventually, you know, soon he's going to get to play it. I'm looking forward to seeing what his thoughts are on this game once he finally gets to flip it.
    23:01
    Yeah, me too. Yeah, man. Oh, I can't wait to hear Nick's thoughts. Maybe next month. All right. So that's the big final heist. Check that out if you got a multimorphic P3. All right.
    23:13
    Other companies have issued a whole bunch of code updates, including the big Lebowski. Who the heck saw that coming? But they're up to .55 on Lebowski code, which adds extra ball opportunities, bonus multipliers, nihilist showdown add a ball and various other improvements and rules diagnostics animations audio and toys rick and morty from spooky pinball has a new version which adds the goodbye moon men adventure with additional settings and polish jjp keeps going back and adding more uh all of its games to the wi-fi bluetooth functionality so i installed that on hobbit they just did it for was so i think that's everything except dialed in right now which already had bluetooth um but i don't think they've done the wi-fi for that yet um and what's cool is and so they opened up the beta um the beta channel to everybody on guns and roses and they issued an update that um i forget the actual technical term for it but it basically people have been putting those fans on their um flipper coils because they've been getting warm uh and this is a software update to address that so on what game on guns and roses and a lot of actually uh rick and morty um skip had him on his hobbit bands on the flipper coil like they're overheating yeah it's a cool you know it's a you know how flippers fade after a while yeah i mean like i i feel like when you say that i think of uh an all-day tournament and you're like an hour six out of eight right when it comes a thing but are you saying that it happens much sooner on some of these games Yeah, so basically if I was streaming, I don't know, Guns N' Roses or whatever after an hour or so, you could tell the difference. Like the flippers were not as strong as they had been. Okay. So Pin Monk was the one that was developing these flipper cooling fans. But if J.J.P. can just issue code updates that fix it, then that would be great. Yeah. Does it make the flippers weaker? No, it just like pulses them differently or something. oh yeah that's the that's the real solution right i mean that's uh let's do that so yeah let's just let's fix the problem instead of just uh i mean the you might want to get the cooling fans anyways if you if you run in tournaments or whatever but you know flipper fade's been around forever but like you said it's usually a long extensive play over a whole day of people pounding on a game yeah so uh that is um jjp else or not uh avengers infinity infinity quest sorry uh headed polish and bug fixes that's version 1.01 and led zeppelin hit 1.0 which adds band boost diamond record improved choreography and polish so get out there update your pinball machines i will say the the wi-fi updates make it so easy you just you push a couple buttons on your machine and then it updates itself it's so much nicer so it's good to see them adding that to all their games welcome to this century exactly jgp hopefully everybody else jumps in uh my uh um JGP Games can now mine Bitcoin. There you go.
    26:18
    Not Ethereum While I play Not Ethereum It mines it quicker when you hit the flippers that right you get multi that the way to get uh nick playing the spin ball machines even more yeah let's get some bitcoin going all right uh next is did you have you seen this picture nick yeah i kind of i kind of love it i think it's i think it's amazing like i looked at that and i'm like that's that's that's perfect yeah it's great i mean you like it do you love it yeah yeah it's pretty fucking amazing yeah and what we're talking about is is is on the pinball hall of fame it's just this white background on this huge exterior that just says pinball and red red letters it's like love it it's like 60 feet tall or something insane like that it's crazy it's huge yeah i i have a huge smile on my face because as someone who can appreciate marketing and write like what it grabs attention and stuff and just like this, this simplicity behind it. You know, sometimes it's like the less is more, right? Oh, I don't know if you can also say that's the last one. It's so big, but it's, it's stark. It's huge. It's hard to miss. And, uh, it's pretty phenomenal. Leaves nothing to question. This is, so this is at the pit ball hall of fame, uh, right on the Las Vegas strip now, right by the Las Vegas sign. So it's going to fit right in with all of the, the gaudiness of Vegas. Uh, and just, it's going to hit you over the head with it. And you're going to, you're going to go by and you're going to say they have pinball there because that's how it says uh i love it so the pinball hall of fame recently reopened they're on the on the strip now uh got a bunch of games going in there they had done a soft launch uh to open it up and now i think they're kind of getting into the full swing over there so if you're in vegas and you want to play pinball look for the massive pinball sign and go in there and play so do it there you go up next pinball brothers it has shipped the first alien and they're this is a photo of they posted this on twitter a couple days ago of a line of the alien machines there's an unboxing video on youtube if you want to check it out it's uh the youtube channel is retro sango you can check that out over there um and he walks you through the unboxing process so as you know we've talked about this before a little bit different than the um highway pinball release but same basic gameplay you know same same layout some slight tweaks to the play field there's no screen in the play field anymore and i think there's like an added magnet to help set up an over flipper shot and things like that uh there's there's a different ball lock mechanism too i want to say uh i haven't been following alien super closely but hey they're they're putting them together they're shipping them to be determined how well they hold up, how well they support their games, all that stuff. It's, you know, a new manufacturer is always a little bit of a... I hesitate a little bit to just throw a bunch of money at a brand-new manufacturer, but, you know, they got to prove themselves. They have to have a little bit of a track record. I want other people to share their experiences with the game, but at least if you've played the Highway Pinball version, you kind of know what you're getting into. Gameplay-wise, it is a fun game. it's uh how much is it kev do you know uh i don't remember it wasn't it's actually not that expensive maybe check and uh
    29:38
    there you go have some saxophone um yeah if anybody in chat knows how much they cost uh let us know but yeah i think they were like in the seventy eight thousand dollar range so not crazy yeah so there you go if you want to if you want an alien you've been you've been pining for an alien you can grab one now maybe uh it was careless thank you spooky pinball is expanding they're adding on to their uh manufacturing facility out there in benton wisconsin so good to see some growth of the the uh boutique they're gonna be less boutique soon and they're going to be more major, I think, if they keep at it like this. Are they going to jettison the hot glue guns? That means? When they do that, then you'll know. They've stepped it up to the full big time, not boutique anymore. Well, seriously, congrats to them. Listen, I kid, but I say I respect the fact of their success, what they've been able to do. And, you know, they didn't come into pinball and shit on all the other manufacturers and pretend they got it all figured out. They got base hits, right? you know, sometimes laying down a bunt, but they, uh, this is why they're still around, right? Like I'm not gonna, I'm not, I don't, I'm not into their games per se because I don't want a boutique, but they're, they're surviving, they're making games and they're making people happy. So good on them. And I wish them well in their progress. Yeah. They're doing the slow and steady growth, right? They're not coming out and hiring 30 designers and you know, you know, we don't need to get into the deeper thing yet, but you know, you know where I'm going with that. They're not blowing their horn and saying, you know, we're the best. We're going to revolutionize everything. We're going to reinvent everything. Is it blowing a horn or tooting a horn? Tooting their horn, blowing their whatever, doing their stuff. You know how that goes. You know the saying. No, I know the saying. I'm just wondering what the differentiation is. It can be whatever you want it to be. It's, you know, whatever. This is what I care about, Kevin. That's right. This is when it's another light news. thing i want to make these distinctions okay all right all right you're you want to move on uh we talk about pin side going down uh that brings us to what everybody wants to get that's what everybody tunes in for it's your monthly deep root update but it's not going to be monthly for a while uh eventually we're going to have no deep root updates because they're going to be out of business but continue all right let's uh let's go over to here we didn't get this in the i gotta get my windows out of the way here here we go okay so this came out like right after our last podcast and uh we'll just let's do a read a read along here we go dear rosley customer that's a retro atomic zombie adventure land if you're new hope all is well as promised we managed to provide a timely update about where things are now the latest we have from the lab is that the The UL for the USA and Canada reports are being prepared. We have passed the SAA requirements and 95% of the CE requirements. While product safety have passed, the emissions and interface test metrics for a few of the CE countries require additional modifications. We are still being told it will take four to five weeks for the final CE certification reports after our fixes pass the tests. The UL reports should be here in the next few weeks, which allow us to move forward on those machines. This is really difficult to read.
    33:18
    We continue to appreciate many of our vendors being able to timely get us quality parts to spec. Unfortunately, some vendors are still having issues with global and regional supply chain disruptions. We thank you again for your patience. Despite the past, we don't want to be known as the company that customers can rely on for delays. Our entire team is very cognizant of that, and we are working hard to be accountable for lead and timelines. We are coming up on five months now since we opened up orders. When our teams were confident they could delivery, that's what it says, they could delivery by February to March, we definitely are frustrated at our inability to follow through and overcome the internal and external obstacles. While some things are outside of our control, we understand the importance of delivering on the promises made. as such it now doesn't make any sense to make more raza machines than orders okay with current lead times on certifications and parts there will not be any significant updates in the next six weeks our goal is to update in mid-may at that time if games are not imminently ready to start shipping to offer some financial relief for the delays in the form of a return of store credit, discount of the RASA purchase, or allow customers to rescind RASA purchases for a refund with nominal interest. To those on this mail list that are not RASA customers but are waiting for surplus machines, we are so sorry that there will no longer be surplus machines. However, if some RASA customers decide to rescind their contracts, we will offer those first-come, first-served machines to the list for the original prices. Please do not contact us about this yet we will only be able to provide an idea of availability closer to the end of may once purchasers decide if they want to resend their purchase yeah don't worry no one's contenting about these machines nobody wants this dumpster fire so uh what are the takeaways uh it's going to be six weeks between updates now so no update until may um oh that's going to hurt our content i know we're gonna have no update next we're kind of fucking us now um what else we got they're not making any more than that so before they were originally going to produce you know a few extra on top of the ones that they had ordered but now they're not going to do that um it's going to be another again this was the same line they had it was four to five weeks after the certification was passed, then it would be ready.
    35:44
    That's pretty much it. Can't get parts. Don't have parts. Okay. There you go. Oh, and you can get some sort of a refund if you want. Or store credit or a discount. Or you can say you don't want your game anymore. And get some money back.
    36:06
    I don't know. that's your Raza update more bad news more of the same you know what it is it's more of reality catching up with the bullshit rhetoric that's all it is you can only talk your way through it you said it before, life comes at you pretty fast it does so speaking of Deep Root Nick had a little project he put together yeah well let me put a disclaimer You're just kind of a newer viewer, listener. And you're like, guys, why do you keep on fucking talking about Deep Root? You're getting on them and making jokes. You're a bunch of assholes, aren't you? Here's the deal.
    36:47
    Deep Root came out three or four years ago pretending like they had all the answers. They're like Moses coming down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments. They got it all figured out. All the other manufacturers are stupid and they suck. And they're going to make the best pinball games ever. They're going to release 12 a year. All this bullshit. And if they weren't so cocky and spewed and shit on all the other manufacturers, then we wouldn't have this attitude. But this is what's going on. And I've been in on a game before that I almost lost a lot of money on. This was not with Raza. It was on Lebowski. So this is a more, you know, learning segment that we will beat the drum every time. Be very careful. and you know deep root is not going to be the last company that tries to start up and create pinball the lesson here is pinball is hard pinball is not easy uh don't come out cocky get some base hits don't be a dick do what haggis is doing haggis is base hits they're they're being smart right so we're going to hammer on that lesson because we're trying to help people out both somebody who might want to start a company but mostly the consumers thinking about being tempted to purchase a game that doesn't exist or believing bullshit rhetoric so that's my uh that's my kind of preamble that's my my disclaimer my warning uh off to having some fun so this my idea was to highlight this this is not my idea um that's true this is highlighting our our very talented viewers followers uh i i think one thing that keeps this really going is the fact that we have an awesome community like we have a real we we're really lucky that i we're I think we entertain people and inform them, but it comes back to us, too, in the way that our viewers, fans, followers engage with us. So thank you, because they created – I don't know how this even got started, but at some point a month ago, there started appearing haikus about Deep Root in our Discord. So if you're not in Discord, go join that and interact with everybody. But I just wanted – I said to Kevin, let's bring this to light and share this on the podcast. So maybe this is not going to be like a regular episode, but maybe I'll have a part two of Deep Root Haikus. And I said maybe on Deep Root we finally have the funeral for that company. We can honor them with some Sarah McLachlan soundtrack and read some haikus on a deal. So we're going to kick this off. Let me switch over here. So what is a haiku? Let me just read the brief definition so you understand the parameters that we're operating with. It's a Japanese poem of 17 syllables, three lines of five, seven, and five. Traditionally evoking images of the natural world Well, there's nothing natural about pinball So we're going to forego that But this is going to follow the haiku format In terms of the Three lines of Five, seven, and five syllables Now, I didn't go over it like a nerd With a fine-tooth comb to see if he's violated that So if somebody wants to write to us At Talkpinball.gmail.com Let us know, you can, I'm not going to give a shit But you can, the option's yours all right so the way we're going to do this is i'll read i'll read the person who wrote this and the one that kevin will alternate sometimes people have multiple ones in the row i just pulled it by the way it was listed uh yesterday in discord there were some really good ones from a month ago but i didn't want to necessarily read them without permission so again maybe we'll highlight i pulled a couple of them but i'm just going by what was out yesterday okay so this from wildcat he's gonna have a number of these he'll pop up again uh so wildcat says coronavirus us canal blocked by boat bullshit excuses nice nice all right so this is this next one's from good authority aka slappy uh his goes pointy lockdown bar we can manufacture it oops turns out we can't i like that one all right do i read his second one or you read the second one yeah uh this is his second one update is coming oh boy here comes the update there is no update again these are all accurate entertaining and a warning to everybody okay do a bad pinball is easy new company with two games haggis not deep root oh shit that's a good one yeah i didn't see haggis sponsoring tournaments four years ago every home needs some games every pinball needs a home right uh good authority maybe next quarter if by next quarter you mean not in this lifetime oh shit brought in at guns and roses a machine that's actually manufacturing and selling quite well. Also, you know, I remember Deep Root was shitting on J.J.P. You know, threw a bunch of shade at J.J.P. and Stern, and yet they're cranking out machines left and right. They probably put out, between the two companies, 20 games since Deep Root went to... Oh, yeah. Yeah. 20 titles. So, yeah. Alright, Wildcat again. He's kind of crushing it. You'll see a lot of Wildcat. You can just see this kind of inspiration that he had, because there's a number of them I'm going to read. Magic Girl warned us, J-Pop is a total hack. Bob, not much better. all joking aside if we have learned anything it's octo bullshit what's the octo there's some reference to octo remember his octo manufacturing oh just give a little background quickly for everybody because i kind of missed that so i don't remember the exactly how it went but uh i think it was on this week in pinball they had done an interview with robert and they asked him about, you know, do you have a manufacturing facility built?
    42:31
    And, you know, it was, you know, hyperbole to the max. Where it was like, you don't need, at first it was quad manufacturing. And then he's like, we've stuffed it up and now we have octo-manufacturing. And no context of, like, what that is or what that entails. This is how you know somebody's bullshitting in life in general, right? When they're just saying this kind of ridiculous shit and they have nothing to do with it. Alright, so that's good. All right, continue with Wildcat. But on the bright side, we don't have to sit through the Pinball Twins again. What's the Pinball Twins? I'm missing some of these good jokes. Pinball Twins were at the Stern Circuit Finals.
    43:12
    It was the guy from Impractical Jokers and the one guy from Kevin Smith's World. Oh, okay. I'm glad I didn't have to deal with that. All right, and then the last one. I mean, I think there's more Wildcat, but the last one in his segment. All things considered, the bar is now much lower below Thunderbirds. Oh, shit. That's pretty bad. Oh, shit. It is pretty bad. All right.
    43:37
    This is Rod. I hope Rod's here. I love Rod. What's this toast as they trap Doc Ock and force him to work on our manufacturing floor?
    43:46
    When they have the octopuses come in and start putting your pinball machine. So, Rod, fire in brim zone. Is there a pinball in heaven? no because god ain't real please read my haikus as i'm the sixth buffalo i love wonk and donks you know what wonk and donks is i don't know why you gotta explain it's another buffalo you're not you're not in on the memes we even have i'm not a huge meme guy though to be honest hang on i'll put it in the chat there you go wonk the donk that's uh that's what you call when you play Willy Wonka pinball. It means you're Wonka the Donk. Okay. All right. Poor NS Pinball just wanted sexy oompa. Death by Toothpick. That's awesome. I think that's like some inside baseball stuff that I'm missing. More Buffalo stuff, yeah. Buffalo Discord for all your good entertainment purposes. That's for the hardcore. Yeah. All right. Attack says, Inges, raise your glass. Toasting the pinball machines that will never be. Cheers. I'm raising my glass. herney that's given addy hinges raise your glass toasting no it's not oh no uh herney says uh they said he's cuckoo but now he just go qq robert he's so sad what's qq that's crying oh oh okay that's good i like that all right attack again updates did desist innovations have been ceased. Douche is eternal.
    45:16
    I like how he just comes out the end. You're like, okay, where's this going? And then boom. It's just like, that's poetry.
    45:24
    Nailed it. Do you think right now we're the most hated podcast? I mean, everybody shits on Deep Root. I don't listen to Pinball Podcasts, but I'm guessing this is nothing new. Do you think we're number one? We gotta be, right? We're trying to be number one in that. There needs to be a word category for the biggest shitters of Deep Root the podcast and fucking get that there's no justice in the world if you don't all right this is uh also attack uh dozens of titles ready at launch said robert forever alone i like this one from herney uh skip he says if pinball i seek to texas i must retreat buying a p3 there's one manufacturer in texas that's building machines yeah that's beautiful yep all right good authority. Ross up for grabs. No, not the pinball machine. The civil law school.
    46:17
    Alright, another one from Wildcat. Making great content way easier for podcasts than making pinball. It's true. There's one thing that Deeper's been good at for its content. You know, it is there's hours of content that they've generated for us, so thank you guys. They really got us through the lull of the pandemic. Thank you for the millions of dollars she was sunk in so that we can just talk nonsense and make it like two bucks but thank you that's great thank you i'll take it something money's got to go somewhere right all right good authority deep root refund check sorry we lied to you all just kidding get wrecked
    46:56
    haiku uh from wildcat haiku is on discord giving us more enjoyment than deeper games can and truth is man wildcat wildcat just speaks the truth yeah a good authority Never forget that Deep Root's first logo was a Ball gag in the butt cheek True Another one from it Hashtag innovate Hashtag pinball is easy Hashtag business fraud Alright and then we got a couple of our own to wrap it up here Yeah we're wrapping up of our own There we go Kevin Coronavirus Didn't stop other makers Killed Deep Root Pinball Convenient excuse That's the thing that's going to get them They're big. Oh, we would have brought to the world the best pinball machines ever, but this one-in-a-hundred-year event, that's the reason. It's not poor planning. Correct. Yeah, so that's probably the best thing that's happened to them. All right, here's mine. I'm going to own all Deep Root games produced, which amounts to none.
    47:58
    And, ladies and gentlemen, that's your Deep Root Haiku reading for the month. Stay with us for the next update. Yeah. thanks everybody in discord it was a good time yeah you guys crushed it some levity for all of our our uh our days when we're supposed to be working but instead we're doing haikus so there you go that brings us to our update so first thing we should i just want to give a quick shout out we did our 12 games in 12 hours marathon this month awesome support from the community we gave away all sorts of good stuff buffalo pinball hats uh some jjp t-shirts uh the girl geek won a uh upper playfield signed up her playfield from guns and roses she lives in chicago was able to go and uh pick that up right and get a little tour of the facility so and she got to play gnr so there was a win win win and um let's see uh what else did we give away the uh pin stadiums the neo pin stadium so uh those that went to i can't remember i don't remember who won everything but uh everybody's received their gifts their prizes thank you guys so much for all the support we've had this is by far the uh the best month we've had as far as subscriber support so uh it's really been we've been able to unlock a bunch of new emotes if you follow us on twitch you can spam all sorts of fun new stuff in chat, like a UR if you want to really get somebody good and somebody says something, you can just be like UR, right? Like Scribble did.
    49:31
    There you go. Thank you so much. Had a great day. There was a lot of me mountains consumed. We got... Did Tuno get portal? I think he did. He always gets portal, so I'm sure he did. We played some Guns N' Roses, some Heist, Adams. uh lots good mix of machines so hope you guys had fun and and thank you again to your for your support on that amen game room updates i got a couple so i've been doing a lot of working on games this week in particular uh i've become an expert on servos in pinball machines i had uh one of my spotlight servos on guns and roses died so uh they sent me a new one no charge which is great with very good instructions on how to replace it pretty straightforward uh so basically it would go up and down but not left and right my left one my right one works fine um so i replaced the left and right servo and now it's working good and it moves all the way around like it should uh the other one was on heist the the crane so the first time i streamed the the 15 ball multi ball it just kind of um what would happen is the the little arm would come it's supposed to come down and stop after every ball so like pause the ball uh release one pause release pause release what would happen is it would it would release one and then it would like hit the next one on the top and then it would just it would move up and just stay up and then all the balls came dumping down so it needed a new what they call a horn on the on the servo just basically it's this plastic gear that you take off put the new gear on put the arm back on there uh did a little octite on the screw and it was good I streamed it yesterday so everybody could see what it's really supposed to look like.
    51:12
    Was it a pain to replace the servos? No. Both JJP and Multimorphic had really good instructions on how to replace them. So if you're somewhat good with mechanical things, you'll have no problem swapping it out if that's something you need to do.
    51:33
    What was the other thing? Oh, Hobbit. So I talked in the ad read about getting some help from my Hobbit. So my lights have been locking up on Hobbit. And I thought I had it figured out at one point by replacing one of the, so under the play field there's the big bag board, which they call it, kind of like tells all the little sub boards what to light up and when.
    51:54
    And then I had to replace one of the breakout boards, RGB breakout boards. And it had worked for a while, and then it eventually started locking up again. So I did some troubleshooting. So I was like, okay, the second board is bad. Let me get a new one. And then eventually that one stopped for me too. And I was like, something's killing these boards. Something's going on, like making these lock up like this. So I had been thinking about it forever. And I was like, I need to just go and post on Pinside and see who else is having these problems. If anybody else is having this problem, then maybe somebody can help me. And what was funny was I had like five different people either DM me or post in the thread saying, oh, I had this exact same problem and this is what fixed it. but it was like five different solutions that fixed the problem. So, um, I tried a couple of them. I, I replaced or no, I swapped the USB cable to a different USB port I had already swapped that cable out It didn didn I don think that made a difference but I put it in a different port just to try it I reseated connectors on the power on the computer in the bottom of the cabinet.
    52:57
    Lior from Lior's Mods said that's what he had done to fix his. And then RLM, a viewer of ours, said, it's probably the smog mouth. Like if you have it closed too much, it binds up and then it sends a bunch of power back to the boards, which ends up locking out the boards. So I'm suspecting that's what it is. So I disconnected Smaug and played a bunch of games without him connected so he wouldn't turn left or right or open his mouth or anything like that. That ended up being good. I played a couple hours' worth of games with it like that, and then I slowly plugged things back in. So I plugged in his LEDs. It played fine like that. I ended up plugging back in his motors, and then I adjusted the values on his mouth so it doesn't close quite as tight and doesn't open as much so there's not as much movement in his mouth. And it seems to be working. So if you have a Hobbit, and I know a lot of folks seem to have this problem with that, I'm guessing it's tied to the Smaug mouth. But that was just what worked for me. So if you're at home and you're going, ah, it's locking up, I wish I knew how to fix it, give that a try. Maybe it'll help you guys out as well. So that was the extent of my fixes. And then I also, so today I asked Nick, can we postpone the podcast? Because I wanted to buy this thing. You know how Nick likes to get into VR. We're going to get into retro gaming nerd territory here. I'll see you guys.
    54:23
    It's a device called the RetroTank 5X. Basically, to cut to the chase, it takes your old video game consoles It makes them look really good on your TV, your modern 4K TV or flat screen TV. So I got one of these devices they went on sale at noon today, and they were sold out in like seven minutes. So I was like, let's just postpone the podcast so I can get this. I've got three new Jaguar games coming this week. I wanted to have it for that so everything looks great when I play those. So, yeah, that was fun. I was able to grab one and looking forward to getting that. Apparently they got them in stock, and they're going to start shipping immediately. So imagine that you buy a product and it ships immediately. you don't have to wait like a year when you buy a pinball machine sometimes so uh there you go those are my game room updates it was funny like um i was i was thinking about this the other day like i'm not into retro stuff at all like period but there's a lot of people who are like into retro stuff but i'm into like future stuff like i need like to look forward and get in early on on stuff that's why i think like i gravitate towards vr and and and no retro like you and i are like opposite with that i think yeah yeah like i like modern gaming too but i also so when i play retro stuff a lot like i'm getting new games for my old system so it's not like i'm yeah i'm just replaying old games uh that's what's cool about the jaguar is that there's like this whole homebrew community that makes new games um so i find that really interesting for these like home homebrew developers and i know it's good it reminds me of the p3 in that way too like there's anybody can make a game for it it's like this platform that you know you can just kind of like do whatever you want and get creative and try new things. So I find that interesting. Obviously the games aren't as immersive or involved as a modern game, but I enjoy both. Yeah, no, it's just interesting. I don't have that like mindset at all. I just lack that in like my personality, right? Like personality type kind of deal. Yep, for sure. So, yeah, my updates. I wrote this in Discord and stuff. I love doing the Friday at noon lunchtime streams. And the cool thing is that that's like to me that's like a permanent thing. That's like my permanent time slot now because the way my office is working, I will be able to continue working from home like half the month or roughly half the month even when things go back to normal. So I can do that. And I've got a lot of energy at that time. It's a nice break from work. But I had to stop doing that because my back is fucked up. I think I've got sciatic nerve pain or sciatica and it's been bothering me for a while and it just hit like a fever pitch within the last month I was telling Kevin earlier before we started the podcast I've been trying to do some stretching and some exercises for it and I was like down on the ground maybe a week or two ago and I was in such a position that I was just like howling out in pain anywhere I moved and I was just it was like doing a puzzle like how can I get up from the ground like I was worried I couldn't it's like grabbing the chair and pulling myself up in a pain that in a way that didn't hurt so pinball is tough because um standing hurts a lot so i've had to kind of stop playing a lot of vr um and i you know i can't play pinball without like even just nudging moving the machine and like a lot like hip movements and throwing your body into it uh so that's been bad and i'm trying to heal up and get better and i think i'm making some progress so um i'm hoping i'm hoping in a few weeks to resume that i mean i'm hoping like the end of may i get better because I want to get out and golf and do all that fun stuff. So I just wanted to update on that.
    57:53
    So, yeah, no real game room updates. I still got games that need to be fixed. I'm looking forward to, you know, like I guess with the vaccine, I can maybe get a pinball repair person over. I can't even hold a play field up because I think that's bad for my back. So I just got to take it slow. But, again, I'm excited because I think we're starting to come out from all this and get back to normal. And as we get back to normal, my excitement for pinball goes up because it is a social thing about the community.
    58:19
    Um, other than that, I mean, I've been, I've been playing some killer queen black. I joined a killer queen black league. I've been playing a lot of hunt showdown things that I can sit down and play games. You know, that's, that's kind of been where I'm at. Uh, VR, they asked me VR yoga, Nick. So I used to do some yoga. I think yoga, I'm going to start doing yoga on a permanent basis. Once I'm, I'm, I'm better. I think some yogurt things like stretching could actually make it worse and some could make it better. So I'm going to do that. Listen, take care of your back. I don't know how I messed it up. Who knows? I was swinging kettlebells around for a while. I might have done it there. I don't know, but it sucks. I've never felt old in my life until my back got messed up, and then I felt like this must be what it feels like.
    59:00
    It sucks. But, yeah, I used to do yoga in my 20s. I did it here and there in my 30s, but that's the answer to me when I'm better. I'm going to do it, like, you know, several times a week. That part of my routine. Do some DD.
    59:15
    Diamond Dallas Page is going to be. Woo! Exactly. Time enhanced, bro. So, yeah. Yeah. It'll get better. It'll get better. We'll be there.
    59:27
    Alright. Well, that's the end of our Game Room Update, so it's review time. And when it's review time, we've got a playlist. So, here we go. Let's go!
    59:41
    I am okay. Whose life is war? This month's review is Doctor Who. It's a 1992 Bally game with design by Barry Osler, Bill Futzenreiter. They're the designers. Art by Linda Deal. Bill Futzenreiter did software. Sound by John Hay. and pricing according to the current Pinside price range is about $3,000 to about $3,500.
    60:22
    And who knows? With the pandemic, prices have gone crazy, but at least the Pinside pricing guide kind of gives us a go-to place to price these games. It may be a little higher than that right now.
    60:35
    So, yeah, this is a little background on this and my personal experience with it. This is a game. This was, like, I think my second game. I think this is the second game I owned.
    60:48
    I don't know. Anyways, it's the longest standing game in my collection. I still have one. It's over there on the corner.
    60:54
    I've recently done some, well, recently, like a year ago, I did the Comet LED kit on it. It's got the GI OCD or an LED OCD on there, so the lighting still looks great. We'll talk more about the lighting in a little bit.
    61:11
    We've done it on the Bro Show a bunch. We had it on the front page of Twitch when it was Doctor Who week or Doctor Who month or whatever that was that one time. So it's got a special place. I had never played it before I got mine.
    61:24
    It came up, I think I found it on Craigslist or something, and it was in New Jersey. And I did a road trip out to this doctor's house in New Jersey in, like, the mid-2010s. It was, like, you know, maybe 2014, 2015, something around there. and I picked this up and it was funny at the time I remember the guy saying I have a basement full of all these games and I just I just had to sell them now because they're they can't possibly go up any higher in price than what they are now and I got this from this guy and this game is like doubled in value since I got it from him so um pinball praising is crazy but um this is Dr. Nick, I remember, did you have it, or Phil had a Doctor Who, right? Oh, yeah. Phil had the Doctor Who that was at Reciprocal Skateboards. Oh, nice. And what's notable about that, it's too bad he sold it. I mean, what's notable about that, I mean, Reciprocal Skateboards was an awesome place, for the record. but what's notable about that one is that uh when matt smith on the tv show doctor who was the the current doctor he was down there playing it along with um god i i'm so i'm blanking on the female actress's name was like his his partner or whatever but she was down there too and i mean she's gone on to just do a lot of stuff too these days but there's a there's a video online it's probably still on youtube he actually doctor who actually played that doctor who machine phil had it for a while i as a sort of i don't watch doctor who anymore i used to in the early 2010s or whatever but um it's kind of a nice history thing i kind of wish i owned it or bought that from phil and just had it so i could be like yeah this is doctor who's played this game yeah i remember i remember that video now that you mentioned it i had forgotten his was the one that was in that game did he they signed it too right i don't think they signed it that's the thing that's i mean i If they signed it, then it would have been like I would have moved Heaven and Earth probably to keep that one. But it's like without it signed, you sort of just have a story. Yeah. And you know the story, and that's all that matters, right, if you want to keep it as a keepsake. But, yeah, I kind of wish I had that in my collection. Yeah, for sure. All right, so let's talk about art on Doctor Who. So this is the back glass. This is a back glass that a lot of folks replace.
    63:47
    But I kind of like the original. So for this review, I actually took pictures of my own games. So the pictures you're going to see of my games. But I kind of like the original art. I don't know. For the most part, I prefer to keep my pins original with, like, art and sound and stuff like that. You know, rare occasions I'll change stuff like that. Did you know that's not the original art? You know the Backglass story? I don't. Well, I think I probably have heard this, but I don't remember it. So I don't want you to lay it on us. I really wish I prepped for this because I just remembered it as we're talking about it. So I read this probably like nine years ago, and I actually found the link.
    64:26
    I'll put it in chat for everybody. I'll put it there so you can check it out. So I'm not going to be able to give a detailed history, but you could see in that link what the original Backglass was. This game used to be in kind of the other ballet-style cabinet, and the Backglass was different. and for some reason, from what I remember at some reason at the final hour they had to change the art. So this is why the art kind of sucks on it. I don't think it looks that good. I think the original back glass that was intended for this game looks much better. Oh, that's cool. Oh yeah, it had the different back glass.
    65:00
    So it had like Gilligan's Island style back box, right? That's what that is? Where it has the art kind of surrounds the dot matrix display and then there's the speakers are at the top so that's cool yeah i don't remember if i've seen this before but it's got basically the doctor heads surrounding the doctor who logo which was pretty cool and then yeah they had one on test location i guess in that style and that's when they had that other backlash but i'll probably read the history after this again because i it was an interesting story uh so i would encourage people to look it up but yeah that's i think the art sucks on the backlash and that and i think the story again is like this is they had to change it kind of the final hour this is what you get yep sort of like it's like the world uh poker tour story i think that that backlash was changed in the final hour and that's why you get a shitty backlash yeah exactly how does this happen while there's a story the uh the the reason why i wouldn't change this to like an alternate backlash is there's a lot of uh flashers and and blinking lights in the back that so like the the doctor who logo like animates with the lights and things like that and if you change it to a different art layout then none of those lights um pair up where they're supposed to it's just going to be like weird random blinking lights instead of showing highlighting the art in the way that it was intended so that's why i wouldn't change it from this but i i obviously yeah seeing the original art this it's a lot better than than what you ended up getting on the production machine uh at least as far as the backlash is concerned um so here's the cabinet uh one thing to note on this game is if you're looking to buy one or you have one a lot of times the art will fade on the side that was pretty common i know we talked about this when we talked about fishtails um the art fades on the side especially the reds so this one that i found the photo of this one this is the one photo that i didn't uh take off my own machine because i couldn't get to the sides of it um yeah mine one of the sides my left side is faded more than my right and the front is pretty well faded on mine uh with the reds but the blues and the yellows end up end up being good so if you see a game and it looks this sharp and with the reds it's either a really well preserved original or it's uh it's more likely a re-re um deca re-decaled uh art on the sides and and the front and stuff so um one thing to look out for when you're buying the game but uh yeah it's just got like the doctor who logo and this like um explosion look on the side with with stars and like a starburst effect on the side and in the front.
    67:28
    Pretty cool. Pretty, you know, it was pretty common for that era to just have, like, a big logo on the side. You think of, like, Adam's family.
    67:37
    You know, it's just got a big logo with some other complimentary arts next to it. What else? Here's the play field. I think the cabinet's good for what it's worth. Yeah. I mean, the cabinet artwork. Gets the job done, right? It's not bad. It's not great. Gets the job done. It's also nice that, like, the cabinet artwork can get so busy and you can throw a lot of shit on it, I think it's what it needs to be. Yeah.
    68:02
    Considering, you know, at that time it was all, you know, these went into arcades. So you had to, you know, for one, it's going to go into a lineup and you're never going to see the side art in most instances. And maybe when the game first gets there, they put it on an end cap and you can see it from all sides. And then it's like, oh, that's a Doctor Who game. I'll go play that. And that's, you know, if it draws somebody over because of the name, then it's mission accomplished right so here's the here's the playfield art um it's got a the what's that guy the master in the in the middle there he's kind of the kevin manny looking yeah before i shaved my head um crossed arms with the caveman um bunch of daleks around him what i really like about the lower art on this is and you really notice this when you're streaming it when you look at it from the top down the the um daleks on the slingshots uh integrate perfectly with the art it's really well done um so it just looks like this row of daleks from the top and then you know it's got good good lines that kind of guide you to where you need to shoot the ball um the different different doctors all over the play field that point to their shots and we'll talk a little bit more about that when we get to the the rules of the game but the the the doctors on the playfield correspond to how you play the game and some of the pre-game selection and choices you have to make when you're playing this um so that's the from the left side there's from the right side um a lot of yellows and blacks um that's kind of the predominant color down around the uh the flipper area and then there's dark blues and so it's not a super busy playfield there's a lot of uh you know areas of the playfield where it's just you know a dark blue with uh some stars and stuff so um it's not overly busy or cluttered lots of inserts um you know you got that whole grid of inserts in front of the uh the time expander back there uh but then that's that's pretty much the art what do you think about the art yeah i like the art in this game other than the back glass i like the art yeah that's good um so that's let me jump back to our uh our deal here that's the art sound sound sound is where this game gets a lot of this game gets a lot of flack for its sound especially for the screaming daleks people especially if you don't know doctor who it's like why is this game screaming at me it's so good if you like if you know doctor who it's so it's so good but it's also like the the quality of the sound right it is sort of plays into the issue of it it's very like a muddled like early digit digitalization of sound right in a pinball machine where it's like you know the the the technology for the time that this came out with doesn't translate well into the game so it kind of gets muddled but it's also so bad it's good in some way yeah it's ob ob drunken ob is a super rough voice over quality transfer and that's what you get it's like you know it's just it's just sort of like muddled it deserves better yeah it deserves better is what i'm trying to say it also like the lot the so if you're playing through the video modes like the deeper you get into the video modes the louder the screaming gets so i do like that i miss that about pinball man i like i miss i miss pinball amping up the sound during certain moments right that was like the i think now we do that with light shows like but there were games back in the day that some games it's like i'm gonna show that this is an important moment like you know i think like twilight zone right when you get the jackpot how It just gets louder. Like, why did we forget? Why did we forget about that? I know maybe it's tough at a bar or public location. People might hate that. But I think we can bring that back a little bit. You got to get the hype going when you're on location. Or setting. Like a setting, right? It should be a setting. Put it like the default setting is like sound, louder sound, hype, build up, and let us turn it off. But I digress. Lord of the Rings does that, too. Like, during the multi-balls, it gets really loud. It's like, you know, amp it up. Show off if you're doing well in the arcade or get you excited if you're playing at home. I like it. Maybe if you're next to the kid's bedroom and they're sleeping, maybe not so much. But, yeah, if you've got the option, then there's that. So the music is like a MIDI rendition of the Doctor Who song.
    72:20
    For the most part, I'm trying to think if there's different music in there. But that's what stands out the most. good good music good theme yeah yeah it's a very good theme integration with this game very very good theme integration uh low quality sound but they also killed it by bringing in the uh um as obi-junk kenobi said they brought in the actors for yeah like they were doing a they were doing things right it's just early you know it's limited by technology essentially yeah for sure they were pushing it for what they were able to do for the time they were like yeah it does a good job of um it it taunts you so uh the there's a dalek top around the top and it'll talk trash while it won't it doesn't just scream exterminate it's like where is the doctor and you know it's it it's kind of egging you on as you play so i like that aspect of it it's like the black knight sort of rage before uh before he before he existed in his current form um and uh the there is like a lot of vocal call outs and and guidance to what you should be doing or um the the the one really cool sound moment is the sonic boom when especially if you got a subwoofer hooked up to it because if you hit 10 upper loops you know about it sounds good yeah i gotta hand it to it yeah it does a big boom when you hit that 10th one and then you can do the the three ramp combo to cash it out it's really good so it's got some it's got some good pinball sound moments in addition to the to the one moment that really that really gets on everybody's nerves so if you can overlook that or if you're a doctor who fan you'll understand why it makes the sounds it makes right it's just like the quality isn't there uh as you would want it these days right um toys so uh this game has one of the coolest toys in pinball it's the time expander so you see it in the back of the of the machine here but here's a close-up so it's uh basically in this where is it i don't have one with it down do i have no i don't so it starts out flat uh so it starts out level with the play field uh and you have to hit the two locks on either side in the back once you hit those two locks it raises up to this level which you're seeing on the screen if you're watching the video which if you've played pinbot or uh you know um bride of pinbot or no So Jackbot is the other one that has it. Pinbot or Jackbot, where it's got the bank of targets in the front and then the grid of lights in front of that. You need to hit those targets to light up the grid in front. And then once you light up the grid, it raises up to the third level, which is these three scoops with the Daleks on there. You want to ideally hit the one in the middle for your maximum Jackbot value. But once you hit that, then it's off to the races. You're off and playing multiball.
    75:06
    Actually, the multiball starts and then it goes up. because then once the balls are in play, then you want to cash it out. So, yeah, one of the craziest mechanical devices in a pinball machine.
    75:21
    I don't know. I don't know how you can't love this one, right? I think it's really cool, man. I mean, this is a real interactive toy. Like, this is how you do it. It really is. And there's a warning. I took a picture of this when I had the glass off taking pictures. So if you have the glass off and you turn the machine on, it'll issue this warning that the mini play field will crush your fingers. There's no – it won't stop. If it's going down and it's – Decapitated fingers. Yeah.
    75:49
    It's going to just crush your fingers. Painful just fucking thinking about it. Yeah. So word of warning, if you're working on your Doctor Who, turn the power off before you start playing with the mini play field. For the love of God, don't decapitate your fingers, please. It's not going to stop if you stick your finger in there. It's just going to keep going. So there you go. Keep hands away. And it yells at you, too. It's like, keep hands away from mini play field. See manual title page for more information. Now you can't sue us. That's right. We warned you. And there's all sorts of, like, warning sound effects and stuff. So it really lets you know. It's hard to miss. But the thing is, like, I think some operators and stuff, there's a, basically there's a switch when you slide the glass off that opens up. So it knows the glass is off. So if that switch is not there and, you know, an operator took it off. or whatever you're not gonna get this warning and you're not gonna know so be careful be careful that's our public service announcement for more you know for dr do do do do uh what's next so that's toys display and lighting so the display is uh we're looking at it here uh standard dot matrix upgradable to color dmd as almost all dot matrix displays are um i think it's good especially in color uh what really stood out is all the so it's got all the different doctors in there when you're doing the video mode so there's a video mode where you're spending a lot of time looking at the screen it's got some cool uh renderings of the doctor who logo and they kind of zoom in um trying to think of other oh what's cool is when so when you have the the mini play field up it puts the three daleks on the screen and when you shoot the shot it blows them up on the screen too so there's good integration of um the playfield action and the screen up above um i think for the for the time it's one of the best yeah it definitely is i mean it's got a video mode too so yeah it's a good display yeah good display well done uh well executed uh the the lighting is actually really good on this game and that's why i uh got the um the led ocd because it's got lots of good fading effects uh they kind of slowly pulls up and down in the back box too and i didn't want to lose that because sometimes when you if you're not familiar with it when you put leds in a machine they have two states they have on and off whereas incandescence uh the standard bulbs they they take a little time to warm up to full brightness so when when they turn on it takes a little time for them to transition from off to on so you get slow fading effects which if you switch to just LEDs, sometimes you can lose that depending on how that game is lit or how it's programmed. So this game, I wanted to keep that. So there's a board you can call it an LED OCD board that kind of tricks the LEDs into doing these fades. And it does a really good job. And I think for the time, it's got one of the best light shows, really cool effects. like I mentioned before the back box has all sorts of different bulbs that blink and flashers all over the place so really good light show I like it a lot yeah agreed good for the time especially when you put that in context Yeah for sure Gameplay So let talk about gameplay Gameplay is how we shoot the game.
    79:16
    Nick, why don't you take away on gameplay? I've been talking a lot. Well, if I had to describe this game to somebody and they're familiar with pinball, I'd say, look, it's kind of the pinbot layout. Kind of. Not exactly, but there's elements of pin bot in this game. But it also has some design differences, such as the flipper on the left side. So the upper flipper on the left side is really nice because you can get into these kind of loops, and they feel really good. That's the sonic boom thing. I think, Kevin, you really got to get your game dialed in, right? Otherwise, it can make that more miserable or an easier experience. but I think one of the most satisfying things about the game and a way to approach it is hitting that upper loop and just comboing and hitting it over again extremely satisfying kind of rhythmic you're in the flow, in the zone element of the game and then if you choose to play or playing it other ways or ignoring that or just going for other objectives you've got this kind of wide open play field at least everything's kind of far back with the um i just said what the thing's called the time expander the time expander that's way back there right kind of pounding pounding on it hitting it trying to open it up and then you're you're then you're hitting specific kind of targeted shots to get it into the daleks um so it's got kind of for you know it's not a wide body game but it's got a lot going on in gameplay i think it just shoots really well it's a smartly designed game it takes i think maybe some of interesting good things about pin bot and it makes it better in my opinion gives maybe some of the bad elements um it's also got lightning flippers on it so it's it's it's it's a challenging game it's not a necessarily a long ball game um so it's a tough game it's a challenging game it's got some flow it's got the other elements of coming back to you after you hit the time expander i think it's really good it's it's it kind of accomplishes a lot of things to it like you know typically a game might be flow or non-flow this kind of has a little bit of both going on which is cool yeah you can get like awesome combos going or you can do a little more uh more dangerous play where you're shooting at the time expander and trying to go for the multi-ball or uh taking a shot through the orbit trying to get the video mode and maybe it goes in and maybe it comes out and puts you in danger um one thing that i want to mention on the the playfield layout is the uh uh, the, so the, when you shoot the upper loop, I can do two things. They can either come to the left flipper or there's a diverter on the, on the ramp, right? That'll feed it to the upper flipper. So what we're, once you get, once you start shooting that upper flipper shot, it'll keep feeding the upper flipper shot until you get 10, uh, upper flipper loop combos. And then that's when you get your sonic boom. And then it's going to put you into the, the who combo where it'll drop it down to the left, uh, left flipper, the lower left flipper you can shoot it up the right ramp shoot it uh to the far left shot the h shot and then you shoot the o shot the the upper upper side and ramp for some nice combos and flow like when you get in the flow of this game and you're grooving it's a really good feeling yeah so you can you um you can also just do who combos so if you if you start before you shoot the far left shot kind of behind the upper flipper there if you shoot the right ramp that'll put you in combo mode so it's gonna instead of feeding the upper flipper it's gonna send it to the the lower left flipper so you can keep hitting the the three-way combo as much as you can and there's a good way to build a value there too so um that's it i think you know you got your poppers poppers in the back left the plunge kind of goes into the the tardis or the tardis and feeds your right flipper so it doesn't shoot it to the back of the game it shoots it right to your flipper so you can start uh taking shots right away so really interesting fun layout on this game i like it a lot um so let's let's jump into the the gameplay and i think this is a game where this game really shines so it's not uh like a mode-based game it's definitely a score-based game think about rules or gameplay uh rules okay so yeah let's talk about rules uh we just gameplay was the the playfield layout so uh rules um yeah so let me show you the where is it so before you plunge it's going to give you a chance an opportunity to select one of your doctors, which is number one through seven on the back box underneath the DMD. Each one of them will have a different perk that you can start out with. And eventually, as you play, if you're playing well, you can collect up to all seven doctors. So Doctor Seven, for example, when you're trying to shoot the grid of lights in front of the time expander when you if you have dr seven selected then you only have to shoot it gives you like two or three shots every time you uh every time you take one shot so it's going to fill up that grid a lot faster so if you're going for multi-ball he's your guy but um before you have two balls locked it doesn't really make sense to have him going because um he doesn't benefit you until that bank of targets is raised up and you're able to uh start bashing those targets so maybe you start with Dr. Six. Dr. Six takes your playfield multiplier, so every time you hit that upper loop, the side ramp there, every time you hit the side ramp, it's going to increase you. So if you see, if you're looking at the playfield on the stream, there's a grid of lights kind of in an arrow pointing to the side ramp, and it's 1.5x, 2x, all the way up to 4x. So if you have Dr. Six selected, every time you hit that side ramp, it's going to award you two lights instead of one so it's going to go up one x instead of a half x and then it's going to hold that longer so it counts down if you haven't made the the side ramp shot in a while the the multiplier starts to time out so not only does it build up faster it lasts longer so i tend i tend to start with dr sex um and the the other doctors do other various things dr one helps you on your video mode and other doctors help you do other things like transmit other doctors or just give you more points for shots things like that so um there's a lot of interesting scoring strategy in this game is kind of like game of thrones or or pirates of the caribbean before those games existed it is the first first game of that i can think of that has has that kind of uh decision making to do before you even start plunging the ball so uh i just want to address a question in chance so obi drunkanobi says how do you feel about swapping those lightning flippers to the original intended full-length flippers so i don't know too much about this i i vaguely remember i guess the game was originally designed with normal flippers and they they switched them at some point the story that i'm recalling i don't know if this is true right or not but the especially when it came to international play they wanted the games were taking too long so the landing flippers were a way to reduce ball times keep the money coming in so a lot of times you'd see mods like that or changes like that for manufacturers after they got a game on location and got feedback from operators. I personally like it with the lighting flippers.
    86:36
    I don't think it's, well, it's a game I've had in my collection for a long time. So I know how my specific game plays a lot. So I'm very familiar with it. I kind of know the bounces and how it's, how it flows and things like that. I know where the shots are. So I don't mind having the little extra challenge of the lighting flippers. Mine actually did ship with, or I, when I bought it, I had the longer flippers on it and then I swapped them out. So I've played it both ways and I'm fine with it the way it is like this. You can hit all your shots. It just makes it a little more challenging, a little harder to slap save the ball and keep the ball in play. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, I always, my default is like, well, what did the designer want on it? Or what does the designer say? I mean, if Barry Isler comes out and says, hey, look, this game should be played with normal flippers. I didn't design the game of lightning flippers. That's how it should be played. Then there's something to it. Normally I would say if somebody takes a game and they put normal flippers on it and it was designed for lightning flippers, then you're cheating. You do what you want with your game, but you're not playing that game anymore. You're playing something totally different. This is, I guess, a weird situation because I'm always familiar with this game of lightning flippers. That's how I think of this game. I think of it as lightning flippers, and I think most of the ones I've seen, somebody pointed out every picture on Pinsight as lightning flippers. That's what I know it as. So this actually becomes into a weird thing. I think it's possible to justify using normal flippers on it, and I wouldn't call you a cheater like I normally would. Again, if Barry Owls – I wonder what he thinks about it. Somebody reach out to him. He's on Facebook and then share with us in the Discord or something. It's really nice when you can ask the designer, what do you think? You design it this way, but this is how it's shipping or this is how it's mostly known or played as. What do you think? Yeah.
    88:19
    I'm always like how the artist intended, right? There's something to be said about playing it in their vision. Yeah, I took the center post out of Hobbit because everybody at JJP, like Joe Katz and Eric Minion, were like, no center post, take the center post out. That game doesn't need a center post at all. There's no center post. Center post is like a handicap accessibility. It's like, oh, you'd be fucked up and this game needs a center post. Yeah, I wonder if it's more if it was like four locations because there's so many times you're shooting those center ramps. and if the game isn't set up right, it's going to just shoot it right down the middle if you do a half shot up the center ramp. So I wonder if whoever made that call was like... Who knows what the hell Joe Bolster was doing. Yeah. Put that in there. Let's put that in there and whatever. But yeah, but again, it's like set your games up however you want. If you want to start out with standard size flippers on Doctor Who and then after a while you're like, oh, I'm getting pretty good at this. Let's swap them out and try the lightning flippers and see how you like it. Then it's your game. Play it how you want. Yeah, I can always see going down and making a game harder, right? Like I respect that. Oh, the game's too easy. I'm going to make it harder.
    89:29
    When somebody's swapping out and making it easier, I'm a jerk and I say you're cheating. And you tell them they have baby games. And I tell them they have baby games and I shame them a little bit. That's right. Stop being a baby. Get better. All right? I don't care if you're miserable playing your fucking game that you spent $7,000 on. You're going to fucking play it and you're going to get better and stop complaining. And you'll thank me one day if you don't sell the game and get upset.
    89:50
    You're welcome. Thank you, Nick. All right. Let's finish up the rules. I'd make a good parent. You would. So I consider there three main ways to attack this game, rules-wise.
    90:03
    You're going for score anyway, but there's three kind of scoring strategies you can go for. You can go for loops. You can loop all day. Loops with the who combo to kind of once you get your play field multiplier up and you get the 10 loops, then you hit the combo and get like 120 million points it's great great feeling good way to approach the game um i always remember you telling me like when you first played this in a tournament somebody told you to just go video mode all day which is another uh valid strategy especially if you get your multiplier up because multiplier applies to video mode as well yeah i mean this game you got to give a lot of credit to the software especially you know again framing things at its time. It's like revolutionary, right? This is the first game that I'm aware of that lets you modify the game by choosing a different character or setup.
    90:56
    Maybe there's another one that exists, but I don't think so. I mean, we see this reiterated in Game of Thrones, and then of course Pirates of the Caribbean, which Heath took it to the next level and made it amazing, but this was like a revolutionary idea. I can change the way the games, the rules are, modify the rules or get perk or benefit by choosing a different character.
    91:18
    Fantastic. I'm way ahead of its time. And what's really good about the rules is that there's not just one way to approach it. It makes it a very interesting tournament game. You always kind of got to think, how do I want to play this? Am I feeling like I'm in a rhythm and I can hit combos all day? Then you focus on the booms and stuff like that. Do I want to try maybe the longer play, which is maybe arguably safer in going through the video mode because I got the video mode memorized, right do i want to play it that way or do i want to go the time expander multi-ball so um do i want to try to get my multiplier way before i go to multi-ball or just grab do a quick grab and go and just try to get some points on the board uh that's fantastic and a lot of games at the time aren't like that right you know it's a lot more linear and basic so this game was i think just just way ahead of its time in many ways and serves that acknowledgement um to the point where we're we're kind of using some of these like base layer rules today yeah and that's the third way to approach this game so you got your your combos your your root ramps you've got your your video mode and the third is your uh your multi-ball you want to go for multi-ball it's dangerous to shoot that stand-up bank but if you got dr seven he helps you out with that um and if again if you get your playfield multiplier up it applies to the the scoring on your jackpots so uh you can get huge points doing it there and then there's also that's like you can get to battle davros so if you want to like play through the story of the game that's where you want to focus it's it does have a wizard mode right you'd say that i guess yeah like the the devros battle is like the wizard mode but it's just you know getting enough multi-ball jackpots there's not modes in it to get through that's right and that's i've never done that like i've never gotten all the way through because it gets really hard um so it's it's got longevity there's still something in there i haven't done um it's it stays in my collection for uh for for that purpose it's just a it's just a fun scoring game uh versus a mode based game um the theme is fun i'm not a huge doctor who fan but i can appreciate it the theme integration in the game i think they did a good job all around it and bringing it in so um i think i gave the score first last time why don't we want to have nick do the first score here sure yeah this um my inclination is to give it an eight um maybe an 8.5 right so i uh it's it's i mean for the time yeah for the time this is just a really impressive game i think it's still priced at a great deal of you know 3 000 to 3 500 if we can pick it up um it's challenging there's multiple ways to play it it's got really good theme integration uh it's hard to really slag it on anything i mean we've talked about some of the limitations with the sound. The backlash is not that great, but it's just really good. And I'm not super into these, you know, 90s games when I think you can get something better today with today's technology and stuff. But, man, this game deserves a lot of credit. So I'm going to be a little conservative and say 8, but 8.5 is not out of the realm, and it's definitely one that if somebody was saying, hey, I'm thinking about getting a Doctor Who, I would say, look, go for it. I don't see how you can go wrong with Doctor Who. You can get one for a good price. It's a great game. It's challenging. There's multiple ways to approach it. I think that I'd give it a little higher if it had more – it's funny to say modern rules because I think, again, in some ways it was ahead of time. But if it had layers of wizard mode and a little bit more, that would pump it up more. If the digital sound quality – if this game came out a couple years after when it was released, the sound would have been better. right so there's there's some things that just hold it back from kind of getting a higher rating but a very very very solid eight um and a game i certainly recommend to people yeah i think that's fair so you know this game for the uh for it's one of the last remaining real bang for your buck games i think um that's actually good you can get you can get dmd games for like street fighter 2 for probably $1,500 still, but there's a reason why, right? Because that game is not fun.
    95:27
    This is a great game that you still get for a reasonable price, reasonable in quote-unquote pinball terms.
    95:34
    I was thinking a little less. I would probably put a seven on this. I don't know. Just, you know, you got to put a number on it, and that's where my gut was. Good overthinking it. Yeah, so I go gut with the numbers. And you can kind of suss out how we feel about the game. where we talk about and spend 30 minutes talking about everything else individually. Did we talk about the topper? Donnie mentioned the topper. Oh, we didn't. And I can't believe this would have been a huge – I took a picture of it too. This would have been the worst review ever if we didn't talk about the topper. All right. Let's go back to it. That's another huge element. Here, I got a picture. Where is it? There he is. So there's a Dalek topper. I think I mentioned it, that it taunts you when you get the multiball lit. He starts yelling at you and it lights up. And this is one of the really neat features of the Comet upgrade kit, was it um so there's usually just like four standard bulbs that sit in front of it just behind there's a decal in the front and we got um the leds where you can point it up at the dalek so not only does he light up really cool but there's this reflective paper in the back that kind of makes it look like a star field in there it's really a cool effect and uh so the first hundred games of this that got released actually have a moving Dalek topper. So it was designed to turn back and forth when it talks. And so you'll see some of the prototype games out there, early production run games with the moving topper. There have been a few add-on kits that you can modify the existing Dalek. If you've got one that doesn't move because the software is still in the game to make it turn. You just need to have the right hardware in there. And you, you know, the places where you plug it in on the, on the motherboard are still in there. So you can upgrade it. It's very cool. One of the first really cool toppers, I think. And, you know, it does its job of drawing attention at the arcade, right?
    97:23
    Yeah, this game was impressive for its time. You know, I don't think it gets enough credit sometimes. And it's only when we start talking about it. It's like, man, you know, the rules were innovative. And the topper was, like, one of the best toppers. I mean, this might have been the best topper to date when it came out. Yeah. So, yeah, they kind of crushed it with this game. I don't know, Kevin. I'm a little surprised, like a little bit, not a ton. I'm a little surprised, though, that we've not seen another Doctor Who machine from a company because Doctor Who has a good amount of popularity, too.
    98:01
    It's been such a long-running series. It's still current, but there's also the nostalgia. I'm surprised we haven't seen another one. I think that would be a good theme to redo. I feel like if properties like Rick and Morty can get a theme, a machine these days, then certainly something with the heritage of Doctor Who can. It kind of checks all the boxes that pinball licensors look for. It's sci-fi. It's got nostalgia. It's also got modern connections. So if you look at games like Walking Dead or Deadpool, those are more modern takes. But Deadpool also has a long history, too. So, yeah, I'd be, you know, and there's all these other doctors that, you know, this was based on the first seven doctors. There's been a whole run of new shows with new doctors that you could bring in that kind of take it to the next level. Yeah, I think I think we're due. Right. I'd love to see again. I like I'm hoping, you know, Stern or even I mean, if JJP made that would be. I think because there's a lot of content in Doctor Who where you can kind of you kind of have a lot of leeway in what you want to do with the game. There's so many episodes, so many kind of crazy sci-fi things in there that you can have a lot of fun with it and make some really good toys too.
    99:16
    Here's one we gave our numbers but there's other stuff I want to talk about. So the story of this game was designed to be its own independent episode of the show so it's not like based on an episode i remember reading the design documents about it and they approached it like all right let's write our own episode of doctor who that goes in this pinball machine and it has to do with the doctor or the the master and the time expander and all that stuff um they created all this cool stuff just for this pinball machine so really really neat uh a lot of cool thought behind this game and uh really well executed so check it if you see some location drop a quarter in it if you find one for sale and you it tickles your fancy definitely nick and i would both recommend adding this to your collection all right all right so before we get to the the the number one part of the show top of top with warren let's uh say goodbye for the for the month follow us on social media we're on facebook twitter instagram youtube if you want to see old uh archives of our content or sometimes we do exclusive videos there like our game room tours or uh i did some some item reviews i want to do my p3 uh in-depth video that's going to be the next youtube video i think so i need to read between the sheets that's right me me and the p3 under the covers with the p3 yeah i like it all right um we're also on discord you can follow us on discord if you want to get in and share some haikus email us talkpinball at gmail.com if you want to support the channel we got a paypal you can also follow and sub the twitch channel uh if you have prime you can do so at no extra charge uh help support us we have the most number of subscribers we've ever had right now which is outstanding so thank you guys uh and you can drop a review uh on your apple itunes or whatever podcast platform you listen to us on and share us with a friend all right all right nick any any parting words for the month i'll just uh like i at the top of the show, looking forward to getting together and playing pinball in person. So that's, you're going to see him the next month. So I can't wait. Yep. I look forward to bringing you guys some first impressions, some year late first impressions of Avengers after I finally get to play it next week. Really looking forward to that. Can't wait to start swearing again and playing pinball and slapping lockdown bars and then going over to Kevin's and examining all his pinball machines for cracks and defects. I'll get a picture of it when it happens. All right, guys, have a good month. We'll see you next time.
    101:49
    It's Topper Talk with Goran right now. Let's all have some fun. This is about plastic on top of your pin. Go and buy one now. There's a topper here and a topper there. Here a topper, there a topper, everywhere a topper. It's critical to the gameplay experience. You must buy one now. It's your monthly fill of toppers right now. Topper Talk with Goran.
    102:20
    Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Topper Talk with Goren, the part of the podcast where Kevin and Nick give me about three to five minutes to talk about everything happening in the very active and profitable topper community. Today, we'll be talking about the topper that really started it all for me, and that's the Beatles topper by Stern Pinball. So let's head over to the computer and talk about that now.
    102:41
    Okay, so let's dive into the Beatles topper by Stern Pinball. This is the official image from Stern of the Beatles topper. The MSRP of the topper was originally $400 or $399 to be exact. And now you see them being resold for ridiculous prices.
    103:03
    You know, $400 is still pretty expensive for an accessory that goes on top of your pinball machine. But when you look at the way that pinball prices are going, it actually seems like $400 is a steal, although it's still expensive, and I fully recognize that.
    103:21
    Beatles Topper doesn't contain too much. It's got a nice back piece of plastic, but it's in a thick housing. And then you have the four Beatles heads that are on sort of springs. They pop out a bit. You got your Beatles bass drum and then Beatlemania at the bottom. I actually got a Beatles topper. It was very hard to get. It took a while. They remade them, luckily, about a year ago, and I bought mine for Modern Pinball for $400. Here are photos after I unboxed it. You got a nice little mounting plate here. You can see more of this housing there. uh it was really easy to install probably took me 10 minutes or so um no issues out of the box and then here's a brief little video i took of it you got some nice lighting effects and i do really enjoy the topper it's expensive it's plastic i get it um but uh it really fits overall with the theme of the game it doesn't you know look ridiculous on top of the machine uh the The different beetles will light up depending on different achievements inside of the game. And the other cool thing that I really like about the topper is that inside of the game, there's a beetle mania rule set that basically gives you a mystery award to an extent by shooting the loops. But you never know how close you are to collecting beetle mania. And you can now see that on the topper. You can see how many letters you've collected. They'll light up. The other cool thing is that they programmed in some date-specific things into the Beatles, so I think when it's a certain Beatles birthday, their head will light up more often in attract mode. It's just a really cool extra thing to go on top of your machine that really ties the theme together. So that's my position on the Beatles topper by Stern Pinball. I hope you enjoyed today's Topper Talk with Goran. Tune in to the next podcast for another episode, and as always, get out there and buy a topper. Thank you so much for coming to my Topper Talk.