You're listening to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. Find us on Facebook. Email us at headtoheadpinball at gmail.com. Or go to our website, headtoheadpinball.com. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 63 and my name's Martin Whitby. It's Ryan C. How are you, Ryan? Good, mate. That's good. Yes. Yeah. Is that all? That's all. That's it? Yeah. Let's go back and roll. Yeah. Awesome. I love talking about pinball. So does Roger Sharp. He does. And we are now ready for part two of the Roger Sharp interview. and I was gone for most of this. Yeah, you decided that you, well, you didn't decide, you told me before we started, if it goes to like this time, and it shouldn't, because that's like three hours in, I need to go. And because we took an hour to help Roger set up his Skype, yeah, about two hours into the interview, which I guess is probably about 15, 20 minutes into this, you just, yeah, you stop asking questions and that means that you're gone. And then miraculously appeared an hour and ten minutes later, and it was still going. Yeah, you texted me and you said, hey, you still going to be going another 20 minutes? Like, no, wrapping up right now. And no, I couldn't wrap right now. But it was good because we got the juicy stuff right at the end. It was worth it. Okay. For all it takes, Marty. Here it is. When it comes to licensing, you're the licensed guy. So my question to you is, how easy or difficult is it to get a license these days? It depends on what license theme you're looking for. Sure. Is it difficult? No. Is it impossible? At times, absolutely. Is it cost prohibitive? It can be. It becomes, you know, look, it becomes relationships. I've been involved with licensing for over 30 years. There isn't anyone out in that world that I haven't worked with or don't know or can't get to So for me that experience is a little bit different than it would be for others Who are venturing into that for the first time or don't know what they can or can't get away with Or are afraid How much has it changed though? In the last couple of years, though, how has it changed? Because is there an extra element now that you're now competing against X amount of companies for the same license? Whereas before, if you just call up a company, you can talk, negotiate, and set up a contract. Whereas is it now that extra layer of they're now going to tell the other people, manufacturers, that I want this license, and it becomes a bidding war, perhaps? well alright so let me answer the question this way if the assumption is that the marketplace today is more diverse better populated so that it becomes more competitive to secure a particular license theme well let's see granted I had Williams and Bally so I was overseeing two different distinct pinball companies. I also had Premier. I also had Data East. We were somewhat formative in regard to going out after the same stuff. If anything, the stakes were higher. It made for some interesting negotiations. I think today it becomes easier. Now, it becomes easier fundamentally on the basis of what your projections are, what is your business model and if you are a smaller company and let's face it, there's Stern Jersey Jack and everybody else in some way, shape or form that's not to say I'll use my own personal experience that I wasn't able to go better and differently I'll preface it that way that I wasn't able to secure aliens or a highway pinball they didn't even have full throttle out in the marketplace yet I had nothing to validate getting into a relationship with this company other than the fact that it was me negotiating on their behalf which gave them a little bit more credibility I'd say with some level of modesty so I think that you know there are ways that you can go after licensed content with the understanding that this is what it is. Now, are there bidding wars that go on? Sure. There can be. You know, I've been involved in a couple of them. We'll remain nameless as to what projects, but, you know, in some ways I was able to undercut what an offer was. Again, just because of personal relationships. In others I was able to be As competitive if you will The best Part that pinball has Is that it is unique Unto itself And at times the decisions that are being made By the licensor Are done on emotion Rather than Financial God won't that be neat To have that It's not going to generate It's not going to generate as much money as the T-shirt license or the action toy or, in all honesty, the video game. But, yeah, we'd like to have a pinball machine. That would be kind of neat and novel to have. So I think that there's a unique positioning for pinball. Having said that, there are times, can't say that there haven't been and won't be in the future, where there are some absolutes when it comes to finances that just don't make sense. And you just walk away. You'd love to do it, but it's like, seriously? Can't. Can't afford it. Well, let's talk about a hypothetical license, right? This is definitely not going to become a Piml machine. Say, like, the Beatles Piml machine. Hypothetical out of the blue. Yeah, sure, go ahead. Yes. At what point? At what point would you walk away from something like that versus paying an insane amount of money for something? Is it the assets that would become available or the license restrictions? Like, when do you say no? Is it a dollar amount or is it what comes with, you know, with the license? Well, I'll use a different hypothetical because the Beatles that you mentioned, I actually was able to get that license, God, let's see, this is 2018, it would have been 20 years, about 25 years ago. I had a chance to get it with seven songs, and the designer all lined up at a price point that would be difficult for most people to believe, because it was as inexpensive as it was. What company were you working with back then? Oh no, that was Williams Williams Valley Had it all done And upper management One person in particular said Nah, don't think so So if anybody were to ever do The Beatles going forward I'm sure that they would do it on the basis Of it being Affordable and within budget But Having said that because that was a hypothetical Let's say that somebody wanted let's say that somebody wanted to do something based on the movie Ben-Hur. Sure. And whether or not there is anything like that, I don't know. And maybe there is. I've heard some talk about some type of God-given themes that may or may not be coming, but Ben-Hur not necessarily being God-like. with the ability to have some imagery that would feature I'm going to go back to the not the original, original silent film Ben-Hur, the one with Charlton Heston and not the newer one that I think featured oh god I can't think of his name anyway, it's unimportant who the actor was but I would go to the studio and say hi, I want to do Ben-Hur oh okay and this is something I do now anyway on a regular basis for my full time career as well as my I guess part time career but you wind up asking what are the assets I need some film footage of a chariot race I need to have the likeness rights of Charlton Heston I definitely need the likeness rights of Stephen Boyd Debra Padgett I'm actually remembering some of the talent from this film that was done the 50s. Must have been on cable recently because it was well before I was born. Anyway, so you go down the hit list of what you need and what you need to find from the studio is what do they actually cover? All I have to contact, and in this case we'll use Charles Heston as an example because he's no longer alive. I need to contact the estate for his likeness rights and the ability to feature his image in stills and or in footage. So I have to pay for that separately. And you wind up kind of prorating out, oh, the music soundtrack that I want, I have to go and get that. I need the master and the stink rights. Sound effects and everything else, can you get me stems and splits? So you wind up going through basically your shopping list to figure out exactly and precisely what is it that I am potentially buying? and once you see all of the things that are available, you need to make a decision internally, which is what we used to go through at Williams Bally and what I've gone through subsequently on projects for other companies since then, is, is this enough? Is this sufficient? If it's not, then we walk away. If it is sufficient, now I get to roll up my sleeves and figure out, all right, what's the cost going to be? There's going to be a guarantee. There's going to be some back-end royalty. Is it affordable? Does it make sense? And if it does, you go forward. If it doesn't, then you effectively walk away. So I don't know if that's a complete answer to your question, hypothetical or not, but I think that, you know, you wind up determining what it is that's going to make the best possible, in this case, pinball machine. if I can't get all of the signature elements I'll share with you in regard to the Wizard of Oz where I had a little bit of help with that project for Jack I had already done Wizard of Oz as a slot machine and it actually worked in tandem with an online adaptation that was done for social slots I knew all the assets and the rights that I had Jack was dealing with somebody differently at the studio who claimed that he couldn't get certain rights and I talked to Jack and then I talked to Warner Brothers and I said, hi, I have all this stuff all those rights are available, check with this department these individuals and they will tell you. So sometimes you know, on the outside you might have more familiarity, if you will, with what actually does exist versus what doesn't exist, or is assumed that it doesn't exist. Can you talk about, I know you're involved, you mentioned before, with the alien license. There was an absence of Sigourney Weaver on there, and I guess everyone that was thinking about ordering or had ordered was kind of hypothesizing about whether or not Sigourney Weaver didn't want to be a part of the project or it was just too expensive and cost prohibitive. And you talked before about whether you walk away or not. So was that what was happening there or was it just she didn't want to be involved at all? All right. So taking nothing away from Andrew at all, but the nature of what I do is that I stay as involved as any of my clients want me to be on any project, meaning that I'm there from, I guess, preconception to grave, start to finish. There are some projects where people utilize those services to its fullest extent throughout the, not only the contract process, but approvals, submissions, getting necessary assets on through to the tail end. In the case of, what, Dutch Pinball coming in midstream to make that go more fluidly than it had been, forgetting about all the problems that they've had with manufacturing, whatever else. Andrew never called. I did the deal. I was available. I guess it was his decision not to pursue Sigourney Waver. I could have gone to her agent manager. Because, truthfully, her rights were not included in any merchandising. It was something that was totally separate. But, you know, she exists in a slot machine, which was done for Ghostbusters. so it's not as if she exists in some form on the on the Zen temple right so it's not as if right so it's not as if she wouldn't be inclined to at least consider having herself be a part of this project which truthfully was I think a very significant role in her career but Andrew never made a phone call or sent me an email to say, hi, we'd like this. So, because look, I'm not totally naive and ignorant to some of the speculation and some of the posts that are done. Not my call. I wasn't about to call up Andrew saying, hi, by the way, did you want me to do this for you? It's really incumbent upon the companies and the people I work on behalf of to say, yes, we'd still like you involved, or get away. We've paid you, and thanks, and goodbye. so did a similar thing happen to the Big Lebowski with the licensing for the song so I remember the prototype that was shown early on had you know like the exact song kind of put in there from like the Gypsy Kings and what not and was it the same thing there? yeah in that particular instance the rights that they got were for foreign rights they needed to actually get rights that existed outside of Europe that were held by United States publishers. So they never did that. So that became one of the issues and problems. That music was available, but the costs were going to be prohibitive going back through the various music publishers, because the fact that you had vocals meant that you couldn't do re-records. so unfortunately I wasn't there from the beginning of the project or maybe unfortunately as things turned out where this wasn't something that I wound up being able to put together from the beginning I was literally coming in and trying to put pieces back together again rather than being able to create the pieces up front if that makes sense at all for sure yeah are you involved at all with CGC at the moment with the recreations they're making with Monster Bash and AFM so far? Yes. Yeah. So are there certain titles, you know, like you don't have to mention what they are, but are there... Path of the Pentacles? Yeah. Are there like those 90s WMDMD games that there might be demand for it, but it might just be impossible? I know there was a farm site that had issues with Adam's family. Yes, they did. Yeah. But they wound up actually navigating through that and making it happen. I don't see obstacles for anything. All I see are opportunities to pursue if there's enough interest. Yeah. Okay. So. Yeah. Does that make sense? Does that make sense at all? No. In a vague sort of way? Not yet. No, no, it makes sense. I just, you know, you see people kind of going online and saying, you know, Indiana Jones would be impossible because of Harrison Ford, this, this, and that. But that's refreshing to know that. Why would they say that? Because he did appear on the Mark Ritchie machine. I don't know. Along with vocals. Yeah. I mean, you know, look, one of the great gifts of the Internet is that everybody can kind of post whatever the heck they want. Speculation, rumor, innuendo. Roger, you need to register an account on Pinside and correct all these people because, you know, it's not every day that we get to talk to you, right? The guy who actually knows what he's talking about. No, no, no. I'll tell you what lines of happening because, unfortunately, I really don't follow a lot of stuff. except I may get a random phone call from Josh or even Zach. What have you done now? Huh? What? All right, here, I'll send you the link. This is what's being said about you. Huh? Where did this come from? Well, you know, all right. Do I do anything? Do I respond? No, I don't. I just wanted to make you aware of it. I didn't know if you had actually said this, done this. So that's kind of how it works. So rather than having an account anywhere, I'd rather just kind of stay back in the shadows as a historical footnote. Yes. The boys take Bronto. Okay, so what do you think about, I mean, like to think at the moment with all the players in the market, we have people like American Pinball choosing titles such as Houdini and the recently announced Oktoberfest. Do you think, I mean, if you, if Roger Sharp was to create a pinball company tomorrow, do you think, you know, I guess there's three different ways to go, you know, a license, a quasi-license, I'm not sure what you want to call it, with like Houdini and Octoberfest, or a completely original thing, such as America's Most Haunted and Dialed In. Which of those three do you think you'd go for as a new company? Oh, for a first release, it's interesting. I think that one of the fears that existed by probably the longest tenured company in the market was that people would only consider, buy, play a pinball machine if there was a license. that the strength of it being just pinball wasn't enough to corral their attention and potentially to have them open up their pocketbooks. And I found that somewhat discouraging, personally, because it means that the actual pinball machine itself is kind of insignificant. in the back. That's not the focus. The focus is you mentioned before, Batman 66. Oh, it's Batman 66. I don't care what it looks like. Does it have flippers? I don't care. I'm going to buy this immediately. I don't care what the price is. I'm just a big Batman 66 fiend and I understand that maybe there's like a little monitor and you get to see stuff and they have all this footage of long deceased actors like Cesar Romero and Burgess Meredith. So, yes, I got to have this. I think that, you know, when the game itself becomes secondary to the theme, I have problems with that because it delegitimizes, you know, what pinball represents for me personally. So to answer your question, I think it would really be dependent upon whether or not there was a theme that it kind of just stood out and said, wow, okay, let's do that. You know, Banzai Run did not need a theme. It was unique unto itself because of a vertical play field. Yeah. You know, we wind up forgetting that the majority of games during my tenure from 1988 until 1999 weren't licensed. we had some pretty compelling and successful games that were not licensed themes people think very fondly of medieval madness you know that's not a license so it didn't sound crazy back then right like in 1997 I guess the pinball market was on a downward trend but the key is that the marketplace was softer back then it's why you're looking at games that are getting redone, if you will, from Chicago Gaming, like Attack from Mars, where we cut the runs short. And we needed to keep the production line going, and you're coming out with a new... And, you know, you've left something on the table. You know, the extra thousand limited edition golds of Adam's family. We're able to sell those. If we would have kept the assembly line still going, Maybe without that, you know, specialness, if you will, maybe we would not have been able to push an extra thousand machines. So I think that there are times where some machines were not given their fullest potential for a variety of reasons, some political, some probably because of market conditions or otherwise. but again to go back to answer your question I would do a mix and a match I wouldn't be held hostage to the first machine that you know sharp pinball would create I would want something that's universal I might change some of the form factor we were talking about it before to go for a younger market I think that there's a variety of ways to be innovative, inventive, and to have a compelling and exciting product that can stand on its own and exist on its own without necessarily needing some type of a theme, if you will, to carry it through that happens to be licensed. Having said that, obviously, based on what my experience and career has been, I wouldn't shy away from doing licenses either. And in the case To some things, it might be, as we did with Roadshow, it might be something like Carleen Carter with her own music playing, if you like her. Is it a licensed game? No. Does it feature, in quotes, licensed music? Yes. Well, how do we use, like, Dialed In as an example? Because, you know, I was there, and you were there, too, in 2016 when they revealed it at the Chicago Pinball Expo. And, yes, there was America's Most Haunted before, but Jesse Jack kind of was coming off two decent-sized releases. Everyone now, if you look back now, people say Dolvin is the best game. Obviously not for everyone. If you ask my wife, she'll say Wizard of Oz. Gotcha, yes. But the numbers aren't there compared to the other theme, and Jack has said himself it comes with its own. And yes, things are easier because I don't have to ask anyone for permission on certain things and certain assets, but then they have to sit there and recreate everything. They have to create the doled in world. They have to create all the music. They can't put on ACDC or Iron Maiden and say, okay, click this to play How I Bear Thy Name, and it'll just play in the background while the game's playing. So is it an uphill battle for licenses in this day and age? Like, do you think it has a future or do you think it's just a possibly a temporary phase that the industry is going through and maybe a necessity for some of the small companies who can't afford or navigate the licenses? Let me ask you the question this way because it was a joke that I had with Jack. when dialed in was in development and he was going to take in quotes this big risk I'm not going to do a licensed theme I'm going to do an original theme that Pat's working on and I told him I said yeah but for your audience it is a licensed game and Jack looked at me and he said huh no it's not I said it's a Pat Lawler license you're going for the pinball community and all you have to say is it's Pat Lawler and suddenly you have instantaneous is attention. Pat Lawler has a game, a new game. Pat, who's been out of it for so long, but I love everything that he's ever done. Oh, my God. Whatever it is, I got to see it. I got to touch it. I got to buy it. And I think that what it proved, and maybe we'll see, was that there was room for an original thing. Again, a Pat Lawler license, if you will. Yeah. to be successful to the extent that Steve Ritchie has been on record, whether or not it holds true. His next game is going to be an original theme. And I think that there's room in the market for games that are uniquely, I'll call it pinball-centric, rather than being musician-based, movie-based, Celebrity based TV show based And I tend to Have a different Opinion When it comes to what Jack has said Because Jack was somebody again And again Not wanting to point fingers or anything else Where hey Jack You know I've got you these licenses If you want any help Give me a shout You're having some problems With Hobbit I got you the license let me know and I will help you with pirates, let me know and you know, the silence becomes deafening and that's fine I'm not looking to take on more stuff unnecessarily nor am I begging and pleading to stay involved actively with projects if the censors, thanks Roger it's great we couldn't have done it without you and then you move on But having said that, and going back to the question, I'd like to believe that everything does not have to have a license attached to it. My feeling, and let me back up for a second, and maybe this will bring things to a center point. Williams had never done licensed games Even back during the day when Bally Had taken over and You know done things with Wizard Captain Fantastic And so on And when I got there In 1988 I thought wouldn't it be nice Because nobody was doing licenses At all Wouldn't it be nice if we did like a licensed Game I don't know like four times A year Do one in the spring, one in the summer, one in the fall And one in the winter That was what my thought process was Not every game Because we were doing upwards of about Eight to ten different Models a year and then you bring in Bally into the equation In the summer of that year and suddenly You're almost doubling your output I never wanted It to be more than A few games per year That would be kind of special unanswered themselves. And we kind of adhered to that for a long period of time until it became a process where, all right, we need a license. Okay, any license, what's coming up? What movie? What's the time frame on it? I remember Hans Rosenzweig, who was really a very formative and formidable individual in the world of pinball as a very magnetic, incredible supporter of pinball machines out of Germany, our distributor, who said, why don't you do something that is more timeless, more vintage? Everything that you're doing is now, you know, current movies. Yeah. Terminator and Adam's Family. Need something that, you know, goes back in time. And fortunately, Barry kind of stepped up because I was able to get the Dirty Harry license. And when Whether people like the game or not It's immaterial but I remember Hans coming into Chicago And he saw Dirty Harry and he turned to me And the first Is there a new movie coming? No there isn't You wanted something that was Timeless I mean come on Make my day this is Dirty Harry And I just laughed It was like you know Sometimes you want to deliver what is being Asked for and the person might not have actually totally meant it. But, I mean, and the game did very nicely for us and it was a fun game. But I guess the point I'm trying to make is that looking at licensed games today, it becomes more difficult. The entertainment business is so fragmented. Where do you go for content? That is more universal. everybody doesn't have Netflix and hypothetically if anybody were to do Stranger Things how many people are really familiar with that? It's strong because me and Imani were talking about it Well I was just going to say how many older bands can you go back you know who are on their their 58th final farewell tour and you know and please I don't take anything away from the Kisses of the World or Iron Maiden, Aerosmith. But contemporary groups today don't have the same reach, if you will, when it comes to, we'll call it, ancillary merchandise. They don't have the same staying power. And if you go back too far, then it may be a question that it's not for everybody's taste. So it becomes much more difficult To kind of fit into Where's the mainstream Do you take the risk anymore as we did On multiple occasions That we're going to be ready day and date For that film And you cross your fingers and you hope that the shadow Is going to be successful If it doesn't If it's not successful You hope that the game itself Can survive and endure Which both did both Johnny as well as The Shadow. And other times you hit a home run like Terminator or Adam's Family and others that don't come instantly to mind. But I think that that becomes the challenge in looking at content that kind of, you know, crosses over both young, old, male and female. Yeah, me and Monty were discussing it the other day about how basically, you know, back in the 70s and the 80s, everyone was experiencing kind of the same thing. I mean, everyone obviously had their taste of what kind of music they liked and whatnot. But as a whole, everyone was like, oh yeah, I remember that commercial. I remember that TV show. But now we're bombarded with such extreme amounts of entertainment, whether it be on our phones or, as I said, the streaming services like Hulu and Netflix that, you know, yes, as popular TV shows like Game of Thrones and Walking Dead, and we've had pinball machines for them. But, you know, is Walking Dead going to be known 20 years from now? You know, like, you think that's why people are pulling on all these nostalgic themes like Ghostbusters, and I don't think anyone probably has the balls to make a pinball machine on a movie that hasn't come out yet, like a fresh IP. Oh no, it's difficult, trust me I remember flying out with designers to California to read scripts and to figure out, is there enough here for us to want to do this and that is taking a risk, but right now it's difficult, so you go back to the tried and true, that you believe and no has the broadest appeal and you hope that the sequel doesn't suck or that the third movie hasn't fallen apart or that they don't change the talent so that oh wow, you did Spider-Man with Tobey Maguire? Oh, sorry. Now it's your guy. He's not cool anymore. Right, so I think that to the point that you're making and asking you have to be really discerning and what it is that you have an appetite to take on and whether or not it's going to have some semblance of staying power where it doesn't seem too antiquated, too soon, or too forgettable. and yeah the fact that something might exist on your iPhone or whatever I mean I remember talking to Pat when he said he was getting back into pinball and he says I got this idea I'm going to put a phone in the game huh I'm going to put a phone in the game okay because Pat always had gadgets and gizmos and whatever else And that was the premise for Dialed In. I mean, even the name of the game was to have a phone, to have something there on the play field that makes you just stop and say, huh, I have to put money in just to see what the heck this thing does. So I think that, you know, in looking at IP and looking at content out there, it's the same thing. what can you create that's going to be memorable, that captures the quintessential elements of that particular property, that celebrity, that personality. And to the point that Jack might have justified, I don't have to go through all these approvals and this and that and whatever else. It's not a hardship. It really isn't. Now, I say that personally because for me it never has been a hardship. For others, it probably can be. It can be a pain in the ass. I've got to make a phone call. I've got to submit stuff, and they're going to want to make a change. Oh, woe is me. Well, you know, look, I've worked on probably over 400 different licenses over the years, not just pinball and video games and slot machines and whatever else. all part of the process. And sometimes they can make input that makes the ultimate product better. So it's not an intrusion, but again, it's to each his own. Roger, just one last question on licensing. I want to draw a comparison to Adam's family in 1992, I think it came out. I remember hearing an interview with Pat Law and he was talking about how you guys read the script and there was a Carl Weathers-changing device in the script. So that's what the topple was. The topple was meant to be this device that the Addams family had that could cause, like, you know, thunderstorms and stuff like that. That ended up getting kind of taken out of the movie. However, that's still on the pinball machine. It's on every single one that you guys made. Yep. Fast forward to today, you know, the topper is now an accessory that you can buy for a pinball machine with companies like CERN, and they have their Star Wars pinball machine, and the topper still hasn't come out, and it's become a bit of a joke, you know, when does Star Wars' topper going to come out? Why do you think it's so different that you were able to put a topper on Adam's family pinball machine that had nothing to do with the movie that came out versus whatever they're trying to do with the Star Wars topper at CERN? God, how do I make this sound politically correct? I guess it's the people that are involved in getting all these pieces into place, but more importantly the fact that there's now this aftermarket that didn't exist back in 1992. So, you know, if I had three beacons on top of a pinball machine with high speed, because it draws some attention and I have a color bar across on something like PinBot, you know, that became something that we wound up doing. If I can put a fan on top of Whirlwind, you know, let's just, that's part of the game. It wasn't necessarily an option that somebody could buy. You know, the game comes this way or this way. So I think that And not knowing fully Whatever is supposed to be taking place At Star Wars or even with Chicago Gaming And the couple of different toppers That he's done now With both Attack from Mars And what's going to be coming Next with Monster Bash I think that The times have changed The market has changed There are many more folks out there Either Doing it under some type of Agreement or not Who are creating all these various Modifications where you can Pimp out Your pinball machine So you know instead of Just giving it away It becomes easier to have it be An added Source of revenue So I don't know the business model at Stern in terms of what they're doing or what the difficulties may or may not be. But for us, it was just an added little wrinkle that upper management said, sure, we can do this. We can do this vacuum formed up here and do this stuff. Yeah, let's go for it. Make it look all nice and pretty. Well, I love the operator market back then and now it's just a home use. So, you know, you can't have home charge. games, I've seen some games at various trade shows, conventions, what have you, that are so tricked out, it's like, seriously? Really? Oh my God! Oh, it's a shimmer ball, that's so wonderful on the eyes, yeah, I'm excited by that. Oh, the LEDs, yeah, can you make them even brighter and more blinding? Oh, that's a nice little toy that you've added to the top of that ramp that does absolutely nothing, but Sure, it blocks my sight for the lanes behind it, but, hey, that's wonderful. You've personalized it, and it's all wonderful, well, and good. And, you know, I don't have any problems with it. Whatever, you know, whatever rocks anybody's boat, go for it. I, you know, I was into pinball in the 90s when I was a kid. My dad had some machines and just knew into it. and I haven't been super big on mods, but my philosophy and way of thinking is that you can do whatever you want to the machine. It's just make it play okay. Like you said, you can have a colored DVD, a nice topper, all the trinkets that you want to 3D print and stick on the play field, but at least rebuild the flippers every once in a while. Make it play okay, because that's what pinball is, right? If you want art, just buy the play field and stick it on the wall. But if you're going to play it, then be proud of, I guess, the way the pinball machine plays. I tend to think of it this way. The cake looks really, really good, and if the icing tastes okay and doesn't detract from the cake, fantastic. Otherwise, cut me off a piece that doesn't have a lot of icing on it. That's a good way of putting it. So Roger, where are we now in the pinball cycle with all of these companies? I mean, there's still another company to make its debut. We've got Deep Root who kind of came out with, you know, we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And I guess no one took it that seriously until now there's, I guess, you know, so many industry veterans and new talent working for them. is there room in the pinball market for more players and do you see the market growing as fast as the options are becoming available for pinball machines? Okay, a couple of parts to the question. Do I see there being room for more pinball to be produced, either from a single manufacturer or from dozens. Yes. I think that the world marketplace, I said before, went from 2 million down to maybe a couple hundred thousand. I think that there's room for growth, but it also means, and I don't want to be repetitive, but it also means trying to get product pinball machines into new locations so that you can grow that marketplace. So it becomes, you know, the means justifying the ends and the ends justifying the means. Okay, all that aside, new manufacturers have an opportunity. It's a question of what their business model is for their level of success. If you can make a company successful and you can build, you know, 500 machines of a particular model or 1,000 or 50, and that works for you, then you can be successful. Right now, the total output from all the manufacturers put together is less than about 12,000 to 14,000 machines, and that being incredibly optimistic and very aggressive we used to do that in a single model My God we now looking at to your point multiple manufacturers probably at least five or six actively in the process of releasing, designing, building machines. That's what I'm getting at. I mean, for, say, DeepRoot to come in the market and have X amount of machines available on day one, And if that can happen, do they reach a new market or do they just take away sales from the Stearns and the JJPs and the Spookys and American Pinball in the market? Yes and yes. They'll reach a new market and they're going to take away. Because until you get the back end fixed, everybody's going after effectively the same audience. It's why you have situations where somebody makes an announcement of a machine being available before it's available so that you can stop somebody from reaching into their pocket because maybe they have finite budget to buy a single game. Maybe they have finite space where they can only fit in one more game or their first game. So let me make that announcement now. Hi, this is coming. Get excited. Don't do anything. Don't buy this one over here or buy that one over there. Or, oh, there's a rumor out there that this may be coming. It's unsubstantiated, but somebody's going to keep on allowing that rumor to grow. And hypothetically, of course, we're talking about that something may be coming. We don't know exactly when. And I think that for a company, and we talked about Deep Root coming out with multiple machines, hypothetically if those machines were kind of already pre-announced, pre-designed by somebody and now they are actually going to take life in a new way shape or form, then at least what you are doing is following up on the promises that have been previously made and you're going to deliver some quantity because your assumption in asking the question is will there multiple introductory releases, number one, all be available day one? Will they be available in some sequential order? Will they be available in some limited quantities? We're releasing and this is just me and it's not even a hypothetical. I'm just saying and I don't want to put it on deep root but let's say that it is Company X. Sharp Pinball. Sharp Pinball is going to be introducing 12 new games from day one. All right? Yeah. Wow, seriously, how? What? Well, out of the 12, machine number one, we're only going to be doing 20. Machine number two, we're going to do another 10. Machine number six, we're actually going to build 200. I mean, when you look at the aggregate total, oh, wow, there are 12 games. They're going to be producing 500 machines. They're only going to be building four a day. Yeah. Oh, okay, that makes sense. then they're not flooding the marketplace saying that, hi, day one out of our 12 games we're going to have 12,000 machines that we're going to be producing so, I mean there becomes a level of practicality to it, which is why if you look at the various companies and whatever their thresholds might be financially, structurally in terms of their production capabilities being able to get parts and so on everybody has their own way of bringing things to bear. Look, the beauty and wonder of Stern, and I give them a heck of a lot of credit, because it was something that we at Williams Valley could never do. We did it a couple of times. I take that back. But by and large, we could never do it. Gary has the ability to go back in and do small runs. When we built games back in the day, when we were done, we were done. granted we did a special production for Harley no for Harley Davidson for Adam's family but otherwise we were done so when you talk about medieval madness well didn't produce a lot well for whatever the reasons and maybe the marketplace had slowed a little bit maybe distribution wasn't willing to take anymore maybe they wanted something new despite the fact that it was a good game we were done. We never would go back and revisit and say hi, do you want us to build another 100? But the ability for Stern Pinball to act on a dime and bring back what they call false editions or whatever else great for them. Fantastic. It really is. Because it keeps various products alive longer and keeps them available for the marketplace who may not necessarily be early adopters who are stravelers or waiting for whatever the reason might be and suddenly say oh god I wish I could have gotten Avengers well hi guess what we're building a whole new production of Avengers special limited edition we made some tweaks I'm not going to have to wrong title Roger but I'm just saying that becomes the wonder and the beauty of what they've been able to do in their production facility to accommodate that. And more importantly, we've got 80% of our production back at Williams Valley was done in the first couple of months. After that, it was the dribs and the drabs. Now you can have somebody like Charlie who can work on a moment's notice to say, hi, we're going to be doing TNA and then we're going to turn it back over and we're going to do Alice Cooper or we're going to do this or we're going to do that. And we can build 20 of this, 10 of this. We can go back in. The flexibility for the companies today to do that, I think, means that you have a greater probability and likelihood for there to be more opportunities for other manufacturers, boutique or otherwise, to enter into the marketplace and bring in product. and hopefully working through distribution, and we're talking about coin-operated amusement game distributors, to get their product out into the mainstream so it's not necessarily an 80-20 rule where 80% of our production is going for the home and 20% is going for commercial operation. Do you think, I mean, you know, the pinball manufacturers that have struggled recently, like, you know, Highway Pinball and Dutch Pinball, Do you think, I mean, like, there's obviously a bunch of players in the market now and they seem to, you know, most of them have their stuff in order and, you know, obviously it takes them a lot longer than CERN to produce thermal machines. But do you think there's a point where the demand for a certain machine that a new company would produce would be so low that they couldn't justify it making another one? because I guess that hasn't happened recently. It happened in the 90s with the closure of a bunch of manufacturers. Do you... Oh, like Capcom? Yeah, Capcom and, you know, Alvin G. Do you see that possibly on the cards for some of these manufacturers? Do you see possibly a merger of two of the smaller companies or where do you see the market heading in the next couple of years? I think that there's always that risk of entering into a market where you don't assess all of what your costs are going to be. Yeah. And looking, I guess, and we'll see what happens with, what is it, Team Pinball and the mafia that they have coming out, you know, as another manufacturer, or what Wayne Gillard tried to do way back when with the Bally assets, or what Gene Cunningham attempted to do with Big Bay Bar and thinking that he could do more, better, and different. I think that you wind up realizing that there is a heavy price to pay to become a manufacturer of pinball machines. It is labor intensive. There's a heck of a lot of parts. There is a need for some type of an interface, meaning a distributor network. You're not going to sell direct. You can't because you can't provide the technical support necessary. Yeah. So to answer your question more fully, there can be an expectation of a company, and maybe there is one that exists today that feels that they can enter in and have an impact and become incredibly viable and successful. And for whatever the reasons are, their expectations may not be realized, and they wind up stepping back and saying, oops, we're done, which can happen, become a one-hit wonder. Happens in the music business. It may be a situation of combining forces to what you said, where, you know, two different companies may say, hi, it's time. Look, Williams and Bally combined at some point in time. You know, people forget that. You know, Bally was a significant force in pinball. As was Midway and Video. and lo and behold in 1988 Williams wound up purchasing the amusement game assets from Bally and took over the Bally line as well as the Midway line for both pinball as well as video games Why do you think it hasn't happened now in the sense I mean I know Medieval Madness was made by Stern to begin with the first X amount of pinball machines why do you think that hasn't happened to you know Why isn't the UX company getting American Pinball or Spooky or JTP to produce their pinball machines? Is it not an advantageous financial move by the people that are making the pinball machines? Well, I think that the situation, and I don't want to speak out of school, but I think the situation specifically you had mentioned about medieval madness, when you are reliant on another manufacturer because they have the capabilities to build a comparable product and you want to get some time on the assembly line you're not necessarily going to be in first position to get your product built I mean even take a look at something like Wonelli and how long that took, only because the priorities were different, and understandably. I don't take that as a negative in regard to Stern's business philosophy and what made the most sense for them as a company. Having said that, it provided the impetus for Chicago Gaming to determine, huh, I guess we should produce our own games. And that way we can control We can control our manufacturing Our production cycles And we don't have to be reliant On anyone else And I think when you can bring things in house Look, years and years ago People like Dave Christensen Paul Faris Greg Freres Created an art department Nobody was using an art department prior to that. They were using AdPoster and others. You know, Constantino Mitchell created an art department within Williams. Suddenly, there was a company out there that had said, Hi, guess what? We've been doing this for the last 40 years for the industry. Where are you guys going? Well, we're bringing it in-house because it makes sense for us to do that, economically and other reasons. So I think that to the point that, you know, Charlie has set up some type of production capability, American Pinball has, Deep Root, I guess, is in the process. Mike Kalinowski, I guess, is doing his thing in China. And, you know, Dutch Pinball, we all kind of know from all of the posts and things, had a manufacturer, had some problems, so trying to get new manufacturing. I guess the mafia people and I shouldn't say it that way Team Pinball the mafia themed game have already built 10 games and you know however many they're going to be building so whether you're hand building or whether you're setting up an assembly line operation Jersey Jack being an example as well I think that it's always better when you can control your own destiny but having said that it also adds the expense of personnel having a large enough space to accommodate. And I remember seeing all the pictures and the videos that Andrew had done and new equipment coming in and oh my God, it's all state of the art or it's older stuff, but it's still really good and we got a great price on it. And here's our facility. And it's like wow, okay, look at what he set up. Kind of cool, kind of neat. Well, obviously he stretched beyond his means financially and needed some help. And I guess that help didn't come fast enough or wasn't enough or however the management was going. It didn't go in the direction that it needed to go. But they're going to be splintering off I guess and doing some of their own stuff from some of the people who were involved with it. So there becomes yet another boutique that starts up. So I think that yes there is room for growth. I think that there always has been and will be and I tend to view this from a historical perspective. And I'm going to go well back, not only prior to when you guys were born, but even prior, if possible, before I was even born, which I know brings people thinking that's around the time of the Flintstones and dinosaurs, but no. I I don't go back that many eras and not that many centuries. But in the beginning of pinball in the early 30s, you had, you know, multiple manufacturers, if you will. It might have been family startups like Gottlieb was and others. But you had literally dozens upon dozens of, in quotes, companies, and you can define that any way that you want, who were building little pin games. And I tend to view today, currently, as being much more a return to that historical reference of smaller companies starting up. And will some consolidate? Yes. Will some go under? Absolutely. Just historically. Look at anything that's out there. There's an inevitability to it. The strong will survive. Some of the strong will become stronger because they'll band together. And more importantly, we will all, as the fans of pinball, be better for it. Because the elevation of the art form will be a necessity to remain competitive. When you are a sole manufacturer in any field There's really not anything pushing you to become better Look, the cable TV Didn't feel a necessity to really do anything more better or different than what they were doing Until suddenly you had some of these other services that popped up Doing original programming And oh my god, we can't just be a movie station anymore we need to have some original programming and we can't just rely on the movie studios to give us stuff six months after it's been off the big screen or a year after it's off the big screen you know everybody's really competing for eyeballs and for attention and for a commitment on the part of an audience that they hope becomes loyal and the same thing I think holds true for pinball Does any of that make sense at all? No, it definitely makes sense You talked about the necessity before and I guess it happened in the late 90s and it happened during the war the way in which technology accelerated during the war was insane because it was a necessity maybe we're not there yet with the cycle we're on in pinball but maybe it's coming in a couple of years it's hard to judge the market because it moves slow but it moves quick at the same time, it's changing you know, Charlie could sell out of Rob Zombie's before it was announced, it sold out Alice Cooper you would see as a more maybe a better design and a more powerful theme but in those two years or however long it was between those titles the market has changed enough that business strategy and marketing type hasn't worked to its fullest in that he hasn't sold out yet. But, you know, we can move on from, you know, trying to predict the different claim of pinball. No, no, no, but let me ask a question of you. Yeah. What would you like to see different with pinball? I'm in almost the same boat as you and in that when a machine sells out before it's seen, I guess it's good for the industry in the sense that the companies are making money, but it's sad in the sense that the market is in that state where it is just, hey, look, I've got this, I've got this asset, I own this, which is a collectible versus the game being actually good. And so the biggest one for me is dialed in. And I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I haven't supported JGP in buying that machine for myself. But I just think it was just one of the biggest risks and, you know, one of the greatest machines in terms of shot layout and the geometry and everything is just so perfect compared to other machines that have come out in the last couple of years. But the pinball community as a whole is this whole, you know, like, oh you're cool because you have this limited edition model and you know how many dollar bins are they making? Oh my gosh they're making two and a half thousand. That's not limited. That's stupid. Well you know the whole collection as I said I'm a bit of a hypocrite as well because I do have some limited edition machines you know you do feel special sometimes when you have something that others don't have but I just I feel like what I grew up on when my dad was operating machines in the 90s was Getaway and Whitewater. And I said, we mentioned the other day, Whitewater. It's a game about whitewater rafting. Like, that's not cool, you know. But it's a great game and it's fun. You guys sold like 10,000 units. Why are the 90s games, to me, they just feel like they're so much more fun than what's coming out now. And I guess maybe it's the imagination part of it. You know, like, what is this world? What is dialed in versus, hey, I used to watch this TV show. I went to this band's concert in the 70s and 80s. And, hey, they might be washed up now, but that's what I liked when I was a kid. Well, and I think that we pushed ourselves. You know, people used to ask, you know, who is our biggest competitor, you know, back then, back in the early 90s. And in all honesty, I used to say our previous games. It took nothing away from, you know, the other companies that were in the market. But, you know, when you have about 85% of the world marketplace for pinball, yeah, you're competing against your former successes. And it raises the bar. And when you have an environment with the type of personalities that we did have, we were very competitive. Well, if he's doing that, well, then I'm going to do this. and it was a great friendly rivalry that raised and elevated everybody's level of creativity and imagination and I think that that's the part that really kind of spurs things forward when that happens but I want to ask you another question what's your favorite pinball machine? because I didn't get a chance to ask you some of the questions that I usually ask people it's all been too much me so what's your favorite pinball machine? Well, we've had 60, 61 podcasts. To me, it changes constantly. I've got 25 or so machines, so I don't play certain machines for a couple of months, and I come back to them and say it's like a new experience for me. Overall, I would have to say Tron, and simply because the experience for me when I play Tron is one where I'm totally sucked into, who, as you said, I think it was in the 80s or 90s, the 3D world under glass. I think maybe it was you that coined that phrase, which has been kind of, I guess, bastardized and used a lot recently. Yes, it has been. It's been used a lot, yes. But it's the light show and the excitement of that game. It's just... And I'm fascinated by what makes me like a pinball machine because, you know, there is no perfect pinball machine, and sometimes I want to play a long-playing game like Wizard of Oz and Lord of the Rings and sometimes I want to play 10 games of Tron in 20 minutes. But do you know what I mean? Like it's – I don't know and I don't think people know exactly what they like in pinball machines. They will say, you know, Kiss is a horrible pinball machine, but I love Aerosmith. And I say, well, what do you love about Aerosmith? Like, oh, I love this shot. I'm like, well, Aerosmith, you know, Kiss has that shot. And people, you know, I don't think there's an exact formula of why people like what they do, because it's just sensory overload, right? When you're playing pinball machines, you're just... Well, and sometimes it's kind of like ice cream. Sometimes you're just in the mood for plain vanilla. Other times it's like, I have this urge for chocolate chip. Yeah. And it's the same with pinball. That's why people have collections, right? You know, it's hard to own just one pinball machine. I bought Indiana Jones a couple of years ago. It was my first kind of pinball machine, you know, as an adult. And I remember asking my wife, you know, are you okay if I just buy one pinball machine? She's like, sure. And everyone in the pinball community, I didn't know too many people back then, they all kind of laughed and they said, you know, this is a start. You'll be fine. And I still remember the feeling of saying, like, man, these people really don't know me. Like, I'm absolutely fine just getting one. and then it just grows into this crazy obsession. And now I've got a podcast that I'm interviewing you and it just snowballs and it's an all-encapsulating hobby where... I mean, you're still into it now. I mean, what gives you joy these days? Obviously, you love talking about pinball, but you're still there, like, what, monthly or weekly, playing in local tournaments, right? Oh, yeah. No, I still compete, despite myself. No, hey, the skills have eroded. The flashes of brilliance are much less frequent and don't last as long as they used to. But, no, I mean, I still enjoy it. I still play, you know, I have 25 machines at home. So I still play here in the house. And, yes, I'm in the Chicago Pinball League. And we have Level 257, the Selfie League, that I support. and any events that are in relative proximity. I've been fortunate enough where I've been invited to some various events outside of here, Louisville and Texas. You're not coming down to Australia anytime soon, Roger? That was a bitch of a flight. Zachary went to Macquarie for college for a year, That was a killer I gotta tell you But I've been fortunate Enough to Be able to go out and play And have some accessibility To games I still enjoy it, I still enjoy the camaraderie You know, Josh just called me today Asking about Pinmasters In Las Vegas in March Which is going to happen right after The amusement game show And I was like, did you want to play? Sure What time do you want to play We have two times set up It's either 10 o'clock in the morning Or 3 in the afternoon I'll do the 3 o'clock in the afternoon It's those kinds of things That I enjoy doing And more importantly My wife Ellen has gotten into playing in the selfie league So if she gets to be part of it Then you know It gives me a chance to stay somewhat connected And involved with my sons Who are reasonably close by, just geographically. But, you know, normally you don't have a chance as a grown-up old person to really have time with your children who figure that that's only for holidays and maybe a Sunday night call. So it's nice to know that my sons don't have an issue or a problem having me around. No, you're definitely blessed with them embracing the hobby. and I'm guessing you probably never thought they would embrace it in such a, not an aggressive manner, but, you know, they're so involved with it. Yeah, in such a fashion. I never thought it would be this much a part of my life. So the fact that they have embraced it, to your point, is very gratifying. I was talking to Josh a couple of days ago and just said, hey, we're thinking about interviewing your dad and that's how I got your email address. So, and I was joking about how... And he said, don't do it, don't do it. Don't do it. He said he does like to talk. And we kind of made some jokes about how, you know, like every interview with you is, you know, mainly about that romantic story about, you know, the shot at the safe pinball. And I kind of said, well, has anyone ever asked him, like, what if you had, like, three house calls? and, you know, his pinball then, you know, like banned forever. That's right. And he was like, you don't understand. Like, you know, my dad's a decent player now, but back then he was like Keith Elwin, man. Like he was unsufferable. He was the world's best middle player. There's no way he wasn't going to make those shots. So, you know, it was a nice, yeah. And my last question, I guess. As somebody said, I'll just put this in context, because in all honesty, it is difficult, number one, growing older. You folks will feel that in another 60 or 70 years when you get to be my age. But, you know, there's a level of pride that I do have still, kind of, when it comes to playing pinball. And it's difficult. It's difficult to remember how I was. And somebody said something that was very, very nice to me. And it really took home. And whether or not this makes sense for anybody listening, I don't know if they have familiarity with a basketball player by the name of Michael Jordan. But Michael Jordan was truly a remarkable player. And for many, he was the best basketball player ever, and taking nothing away from LeBron James and Kobe Bryant and others from the NBA. And this person said to me, he said, look, Michael Jordan may not be able to dunk anymore, but at one point in time, he could sky like anybody's business. He said, it's the same as you. And it was like, thank you. I appreciate that. At least, you know, I do have the fact that at one point in time, I was incredibly good. and now I am just ancient. And as I said, the infrequency of those moments are just stunning to me. But every once in a while I can pull out a surprise. As long as you're still having fun, I think everyone's... You're not going to be talking about like you're in your deathbed or something. But people are going to remember you for decades to come as the guy who saved Pinwall, but also this amazing story of your career and the legacy you've left with your two children. Another joke I was talking about with Josh is kind of like how awkward it might be at the dinner table these days with Zach sitting on one end and you on the other end basically having competing jobs, one at Stern and one working for other companies. Do you still get to talk about work at the dinner table? Every once in a while there may be a question that kind of comes up, but we know to keep hands off. And, you know, it's interesting because you mentioned it. I never brought work home at Williams Bally Midway. I never really shared anything with the boys. They would find out about it when everybody else did. You know, there's a game out on test. It's over at Just for Fun, which is across the way from where we are here. Or, Dad, you know, we want to go over and play, you know, that new game, whether it's a video game or a pinball machine or whatever. So it really doesn't come up too often. I do do a lot of work with Josh, if he mentioned it or not, on behalf of Raw Thrills for their video games and doing licensing for them. And I don't probe or ask questions in terms of Zachary and what he's doing. I find it interesting in terms of Zachary specifically that, you know, he's the director of marketing, I think is his title. And that was my title starting out at Williams back in 1988. So I guess the acorn doesn't fall that far from the tree. But I am incredibly proud of both of them and what they've been able to accomplish. And I think with Zachary, because admittedly it's closer to home with pinball, I think what he's been able to do, to really kind of advance the cause on behalf of Stern, the Stern Army, and all the other initiatives. I think it's fantastic. In some ways, I guess vicariously, I can live through whatever they're accomplishing and achieving and knowing that, yes, I had a small little part in it. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to hear about your next venture, Sharp Family Pinball Company, coming up at TPF. Shut up, Timbal. No, seriously, Roger, it's been great talking to you. If you've noticed, Marty hasn't said anything in an hour. He had to go. He didn't want to be rude and interrupt your train of thought an hour ago, but something came up and he just had to drop off the line. But we really appreciate it from the bottom of our heart, taking time out of your day. And, I mean, I've still got like 15 other questions I can ask you, but maybe we should leave it to another time because we have been going for about two and a half hours. So I just want to thank you for coming on the show. God, I thought we'd only be going for about five or ten minutes. Look at me. We can definitely do this again. It's been a blast. I appreciate you guys helping me sink in with Skype and headphones and all the rest of it. So, yeah, I mean, I have absolutely totally enjoyed this. I don't know if it's all and everything that you would have wanted. And if there's something more, better, or different, I am available. Marty messaged me because, you know, he didn't want to – he can't obviously say it, but he messaged me on my phone 15 minutes from the conversation saying, oh, my gosh, I can listen to this forever. So it's the soothing Roger Sharpe voice, you know, talking about the memories of him also. Once again, Roger, thanks very much. Hey, Ryan, my pleasure. Enjoy the rest of your day, and we'll be talking with you again and maybe see you one of these days. Yeah, I was sitting right behind you at the Chicago Pinball Expo when Dalton was revealed, and I was looking at you, nodding your head when Jack was talking, but I was too shy to introduce myself, and I didn't get a photo with you or anything. But next time I'll make sure that we have a beer together and chase some laughs. you're on are you coming in for Expo this year I asked my wife the other day because I went to Texas Timber Festival this year and she just looked at me and said yeah the book said it all the book said it all so maybe next year well and what winds up happening for me I mean just to share with you is Ellen my wife and it's like so I'm going to go to Atlanta want to come what am I supposed to do you play football and stuff and you can sit in on just a talk. Come on. I mean, this will be fun. And she's gotten into it. And, you know, she played in a tournament, her first tournament, and she almost qualified in the top eight. The last player on the last ball beat her out, and it was suddenly she was hooked. And it's like, all right, where are we going next? And, you know, we just went to Rocky Mountain, and Ellen played in that tournament and had fun. So it gives us a chance to kind of go around and about. And she said we'd never go anywhere. And I said, well, come on, we're going to go to these various things. Get together, 100%. So I think that's the only hurdle for me. The only hurdle for me is I've got a 7-year-old and a 3-year-old. Oh, good, it's a family adventure. Yeah. We tested it out this year with Japan, and we've missed successes. It's hard with the younger kids lugging them around. But maybe when they're a bit older, I'll do it as a family trip. No, no, no. Trust me. Look, you just mentioned you talked to Josh recently. Josh is falling down the rankings. Why? He's falling in Charlotte. Zachary's not number one anymore. He's Benson now. Come on. He's not going to go traveling around the various pinball tournaments and events. What are you saying? So for pinball to survive, Roger, no one has to have kids, right? Is that what you're saying? No. What I'm saying is that everybody has to have pinball around so that small little children like Colin and Charlotte can play when their arms are wide enough to reach. And suddenly it's like a whole new generation starting. So we've got to get pinball machines into preschools. I think that's the next step. Once we do that, I mean, all bets are off. Suddenly you can't ramp up production fast enough. I'm not going to stop you. You're back, Martin. I am back. Okay. Do you want to go for another hour with Roger? Because I've got to go. Absolutely. What do I miss? He's going to start a company called Sharp Root Timble. All right. All right. So I will share two things with you that may or may not have been ever revealed by me before. One, I came really close to buying Premier when they were going out of business. Got a group of folks behind me who were willing to fund it. And unfortunately, looking at the balance sheet and everything else, the determination was that there was no way in heck that it was going to be a good investment. So we walked away from it. And when Williams Valley shut down Pinball, I absolutely talked because I was still working at the company. I absolutely approached them to see if I could buy the assets and take over the company. And at that point in time, there was not a desire to sell the company. if you look back historically at things, it was better to be done as a tax write-off, which is why subsequently Gene wound up picking up bits and pieces, replacement parts and what have you, as did Wayne. Wayne. And unfortunately, they didn't take my offer seriously. So I had two chances to potentially take over pinball companies, and effectively run them the way I think that they could have and should have been run. But now I'm just too old to be making any of those things. So the pinball thing will have to be either Josh and Zach or Colin. How different do you think your life would have been if, say, Williams took your offer up and you were able to resurrect that company? Do you think? Oh, wow. Pinball would have been totally different. You kidding? All the things that we've been talking about and all the things that I've shared over the years, and frequently at best when people want to actually listen to me and ask questions, I would have put, I guess, more importantly, my money where my mouth is. I would have done the things that we've been talking about. I would have done outreach. I would have looked at new markets. I would have kept things out there and visible. Look, I will share with you that back in 1988, if you look at where the awareness of the industry was, pinball specifically, but the entire coin-operated music game industry didn't exist. Everybody kept their heads down, doing business, trade advertising in the industry trades, trade shows. Nothing directed to consumers. I came on board and suddenly everything changed. 1989, it took me nine months to get my first placement in a newspaper called the Milwaukee Journal. And after that, God, almost on a weekly basis, we had a news crew in to the factory doing features, local news, national news, Time magazine, the Smithsonian, Life magazine. being on a Today Show with Brian Gumbel. The list goes on and on. Increasing the visibility, what Steve and I were able to do with Papa. Having Lyman Sheets standing out in Times Square in the rain in February because he had just been crowned the champion for Papa, whatever number it was, two or three. Going out there and being visible. And not just personally, but doing it in terms of supporting and elevating the stature of pinball and of the industry itself. If you take a look at what the media is that we've been able to do over the past 10-plus years on behalf of the IFPA, it's been nothing short of remarkable on a local as well as an international level. So I think that, yeah, if I had had a chance to take over either of those companies, I think that my life would have been totally different I think that the fortunes of pinball would have been totally different as well not saying necessarily better like to think better but do you look back and regret that you didn't do it or are you just happy with how your life's been anyway? no I'm happy look I feel that there is a purpose for all of us and we follow a particular path my path was not meant to be overseeing a pinball company back then. So I'm happy with everything. I'm disappointed, in all honesty, by the period of time where I don't think that there was enough going on to popularize pinball. It kind of went into a period of some dormancy, but I am gratified by seeing it having this upsurge for whatever the reasons are. But, I mean, do I think about it? No, I just mention it to you And when I mention it to you That's when my mind kind of lingers for a while Thinking, God, I wonder how I would have done that Or what would have happened And it's great to kind of consider things Well, as you know, Gary Stern went through some hard times You know, would you have wanted to have gone through the bad to get to the good? I don't think I would have ever had bad. Yeah, okay. There you go. I'm just saying, you know, I think I would have built off of the success that had already been generated. And, look, my background is unique and different because I didn't come from pinball. You know, my background, and I think everybody knows this, you know, I came out of the world of advertising. I came out of the world of publishing, magazines and books. I had a totally different approach, a totally different mindset coming into what had been a very insular industry and kind of turned it on its head in what I'd like to believe is a positive way. and I think that taking those disciplines and those experiences and bringing them into a situation where you're overseeing a company where you have an affinity for whatever the product line is, I think it allows for some dynamic opportunities to be pursued. So I think that the downside, if you will, from 1999, there wasn't really a downside. I think that there was just a question of being able to pick that gauntlet up and prior to that, talking about Premiere which would have been about four or five years earlier I would have ridden the crest of that and turned it into something totally different so again, no regrets, no second thoughts but it's always nice to kind of consider the what have, might have, could have beens yeah, fair enough Well, I mean, you said you're too old to do it now, but, you know, would you – obviously, you're very knowledgeable in the pinball industry, and we talked before about, you know, mergers and acquisitions and where the market's kind of heading in the next couple of years. Would you consider partnering up with someone that is in need of guidance or a new staff that wants to take the direction that doesn't necessarily know how to, or do you think that you're comfortable in the position you're in in the temple industry? I would consider almost any opportunity if it was viable, sincere, and it made sense. So I don't rule anything out. I mean, look, full-time, I'm the director of brand licensing for every major slot machine company that is really surging in that marketplace. Sharp Communications, my own personal company is a creative services company that provides a range of services for a variety of different clients some in the coin operating and music game industry and others external of that industry so I think that if there was ever a call or a need, I'd consider it and years ago I looked at opening up my own locations and actually partnering with Steve Epstein. And that just didn't come about for a variety of reasons. But, yeah, I mean, there are things, and I'm sure that you folks have gone through it. I don know what either of you do on a daily basis in terms of your real world But there are times where you wind up saying hey I have this opportunity to pursue this I going to do this I'm going to add this to what it is that I do. I mean, Josh used to joke that I was semi-retired, and it's like, yeah, I'm semi-retired when I go to sleep. I have two full-time careers. I don't have enough time to go out and play golf. So it is what it is. Okay. All I'm hearing, Ryan, is that when we do start up our pinball company, we're just going to finance it. That's what I'm saying. There you go. Is pinball. Okay. Is what we're going to call it. There you go. I like it. Gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, mate. I'm going to let you go to your day and look forward to, you know, maybe doing this again when, you know, you have a few more hours. Great The big thing for me The big thing for me And I know that Josh jokes about it So does Zach Because it's like God, my dad just talks forever It's so freaking terrible But when I started in advertising I used to speak in headlines and bullets When I moved into publishing I started speaking in paragraphs Now I tend to speak in chapters My apologies I know it's kind of like reading a legal contract where there's a lot of whereases and where to fors and it's a single sentence that runs for 12 pages. That's just become big. I've enjoyed this and hopefully you guys have enjoyed it as well. Yeah, it's been great. And we've been looking forward to this for a while. And it may sound a bit over the top, but when we started doing the podcast, when we started interviewing people, this was always one of the big ones that we wanted to do because you have such a rich history in this and your opinions are still really valid and I think people should be taking your advice. Well, shucks, thank you. And more importantly, you got to me while I'm still alive. That was a long-distance connection that it would have been. Otherwise. All right, right there. Thank you very much. Gentlemen. I loved it. You guys take care. Don't be strangers. Now that we know how to connect. Absolutely. All right. Be well. See you. Bye. Bye. So there we go, Ryan. Roger's route part two. What did we learn during the second part? He could have saved Pimble twice. Could have. Twice. Well, I don't know whether buying Premier would have saved anything. It means that Josh and Zach Sharp would have had to go to public schools and wear hand-me-down clothes for the rest of their lives. Yeah, pretty much. So, you know what? At least by not doing it, we'll never know, and he will stay a legend. We'll never know, but it really kind of got me thinking that this might not be big to someone else, but everyone always kind of talks about it, right? Like, what if Williams didn't close down? Why did they close down? Why were they so interested in freaking slot machines? You know, how boring. How boring did they make billions and billions of dollars versus... Well, the thing that was new to me was that, you know, all I'd been told, and maybe other people were told differently, I was just told, nah, they just shut it down. Didn't want to do anything with it, just shut it down. Well, there was actually an opportunity to continue with the pinball division. Well, not continue. I mean, Roger Sharp wanted to own it, I guess. So it's just either going to sell the rights or sell them off to somebody. But who knows? Maybe they've made more money over the years licensing stuff because I guess people still need approval from certain things from them. Like, they still retain something, right? I would say so. Yeah. Anyway, I mean, the Beatles' information was pretty interesting as well. I mean, the fact that the Beatles now would kind of seem like a good license because we're in that era of making bands, pinball machines, and the nostalgia pinball machines. But back in the 90s, the dude in marketing at Williams was like, fuck no, let's do Dirty Harry instead. Let's do Junkyard. Let's not do the Beatles. Let's do Junkyard. And that was a good decision, apparently. Yeah, I reckon Beatles would have been better back then. Back in the 90s? Yeah, yeah, kind of. Kind of. I don't know. When did John Lennon die? Ages ago, right? Oh, ages ago. Okay. Like in his prime. Yeah. Okay. All right. There you go. That was it? That's it. So, thank you again, Roger, for coming on. That was really good. News of the week, mate. Monster Bash Bombs, an anonymous throwaway account on Kingside. I'm pretty sure this is Mr. Non-Disclosure Agreement Ned that we've had on the show. Right, yes. Because he's got everything. he posted up a picture of the Monster Bash remake topper. And it was glorious. It was taken with a potato, the picture. It was very nice and clear. And that kind of got around, and within 24 hours, CBC posted a proper photo. And isn't it amazing what a different kind of elite photo makes compared to a professional photo. When you see the professional photo, you're kind of like, Yeah. That does kind of look exciting. So this is the thing. What they actually did, like, because somebody posted up there and were like, oh, well, it's out there now. We'll have to post the real thing. You know what we should do? Just leak the entire fucking thing. Just post any old random crap and hope that one of them is true and then they'll go, oh, well, that's true. We better now post the real thing. Someone should just post a blurry picture of their Monster Bash because Monster Bash Remake is exactly the same. Is it? I don't know. I don't know. And they're still getting approval, right? Yeah. Something is not approved yet. Otherwise, they would have launched it by now. And it is crazy to think that Texas Pinball Festival is when... That was in March. Seven months ago was when they were meant to show it. So will we see it by Expo? I hope so. I don't know. I mean, you know... They have to. They have to, right? It's one of those things where, you know, we did talk to Roger about licensing. And, you know, sometimes it's easy. Sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it seems easy. And I know that this was something that Jack, Josie Jack, has said in the past, that sometimes a licence on paper looks like you've got everything, but all of a sudden there's one thing that you didn't quite get and that can really hold things up. So they're right at the destination, but there's obviously something that's holding it up. So who knows what it is. Moving on to Deep Root. So this week in pinball, Jeffrey, chef number two, I think it is. Out of seven. Out of seven, yeah. He is the guy who was lucky enough to go on a Deep Root pinball tour. Now, did you read the article, Marty? I did. All right. So let's just kind of sift through it. So one of the biggest points I got from it was that the Deep Root facility has many curved walls and interesting shaped rooms. Yep. That was pretty cool. Yeah. Yes. Pretty much. Yep. Yep. The Deep Root cabinet, not including the head, looks similar to a standard Bally Williams cabinet. Yep. So, okay, so he's purposely excluding the head. So something on this pinball machine is different in the head. Now, will it be different like American Pinball's Houdini head, where it's just like a different shape curve? Curve thing, yeah. Or will it be like Pinball 2000, where it's projecting stuff onto the playfields. Or will it have a full-size screen in the back? Yeah, or will there be no heads? Will it just be a table of sorts? Because do you really need... Like a cocktail pin? Well, think about Magic Girl. The cabinet on Magic Girl was so deep that you could fit... I mean, I don't think John Papadiuk thought it through because half the mechs block the LCD screen, but the idea is there and he actually paints it the idea. Yeah, I don't know. Circus Voltaire had it in there and it's not blocked by anything. Will we see? That would look so weird though. I think more people would reject that. Okay. What else did we learn, Nani? Well, apparently they had a party in the break room celebrating landing a major license and in brackets he says, Teaser, the license is an 80s movie many people have been craving. So, it definitely can't be Goonies because many people haven't been craving that. But many people have, Marty. A couple. Could it be Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, Marty? Well, again, it did say many people have been craving, so... Could it be Big Trouble in Little China, Marty? Yeah, it's definitely not that if it says many people have been craving. Back to the future. That's probably more like it. The, um, Jeff dropped in, obviously Jeff knows what it is, um, Jeff dropped into the thread and kind of said, yeah, yeah, kind of, you know, I'm paraphrasing here, but yeah, it might be that, or, you know, yippee-ki-yay, see you next time. So, does he want people to think that it's die-hard? That would be cool. That was in the 80s, right? Yeah, I think 85, 88 or something. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. People have been craving that. So, look, I've actually got Die Hard downloaded, ready to watch. I still haven't brought myself to watch it. You watched it. You told me you watched it. No, that was something else. I can't remember what that was. But even though I don't, I've never seen it, I know enough about it to know that I reckon it would make a good pin. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Hans Gruber. Yeah. So. Um, my, the top three, uh, 1980s movies of all time that don't have pinball machines, and you'd be surprised if you look it up, like, I think, uh, like 12 of the top 15 are covered, and, and they include a lot of Star Wars movies and Ghostbusters and, um, Indiana Jones that kind of all encompass in, in like one pin, but, um, the top three movies, the actual, the number one grossing movie of the 80s, full stop, is E.T. There hasn't been an E.T. pinball. I think we make a horrible primal. Yeah, I agree. Because no one cares about E.T. anymore. He kind of looks... It didn't really... I don't know. It didn't become a cult classic, did it? Beverly Hills Cop at number two. What do you think? No. Okay. And number three, and this is like 15th on the list or something because it said they've all kind of taken Top Gun. I reckon Top Gun would actually make a... because people, I think, think back on Top Gun in a fun way, right? Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Again, I've never seen it. Oh, Marty, you're so useless when it comes to movies. I've never seen Top Gun. Remember, the really sort of popular movies, I'm the anti-popular movie guy. But even back in the day, and they're on like channel 10 on like repeat every... Anyway, we've already had this conversation before. Did you notice this bit, Marty? As we continued the tour, we walked into the break room and there was an item on the floor. This item was part of an experiment to make shipping and handling of pinball machines easier. What does that mean? Does that mean like something to lift pinball machines or is he talking about a screwdriver on the floor because you have to build your own demo machine like Ikea. Yeah, it could be. Oh, okay. Yeah. He also ventured into the programming and product development room and apparently the room was dimly lit, Marty. And that proves that programmers are just like Gollum lurking in the darkness. Black light, black light, you reckon? Yeah. So, yeah, that's Deep Root. Yeah, okay. So, that's kind of cool. I think the other thing I noticed as well, he was saying that he saw the underneath of a playfield and it was interesting that there was very little soldering and unique boards and individual LED boards and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, that exists on CGC and stuff. I guess it does. What I'm trying to find out is, you know, what this quad assembly is all about and whether they've been able to reduce the number of moving parts required to build a machine. For sure. And the biggest unknown, which, you know, we'll talk about in further detail, I guess, when they show their pinball machines is, you know, will they be able to actually make them and not make one or two because obviously they've already assembled a pinball machine. They've got various whiteboards in various stages. But manufacturing, as Gary Stern said a million times, you know, we're not a pinball company. We make stuff. It just happens to be pinball machines. so will they be able to figure out the key to unlocking the mystery behind making the machines? Because Jersey Jack, how many Pirates of the Caribbean have been delivered? And they announced that 11 and a half months ago. I don't know, maybe less than 100 or so. And obviously that's on a ramp up and they're ready now, but there was a period of a year there where, you know, the ball wasn't really rolling. Absolutely. Okay, that was an unintentional word I did. The ball wasn't rolling, like the pinball. Ah, yeah. Yeah. No, unintentional. Yeah, no, I didn't say it was actually good, so we didn't actually really need to read it out again, but yeah, there you go. So, deep brain. So talking about people that are trying to figure out how to manufacture pinball machines, American Pinball. Yes. Yes. There was an interview with... Yeah. Yeah. Did you listen to it, Marty? I actually did listen to this. It was a great interview. He's the head of sales and marketing and just came across as a really cool guy. I just, I don't know. I like him. I wanted to have a beer or a gin and tonic with him. He just seemed like a cool guy. Yeah, for sure. And a lot of good information in that interview. It wasn't a super long interview, but it was kind of jam-packed full of info. So one of the bits of information that he let rip was the possibility of a limited run of Oktoberfest demo machines every year, as in, you know... For Oktober. Yeah, so... He did know. What he said was, you know, there was this idea someone came up with. He didn't say they were going to do it. He was just sort of saying, you know, that was kind of an idea that somebody thought about. I hope they stop that thought. Well, if it was like Stern or something, making like a Christmas tin every year, Oktoberfest, it might work for them because they've got so much stuff going on. It's like this is your year, this is your chance to grab one of 100 pinball machines and there would be this kind of exclusive club that would grow every year. But for someone like American Pinball that only has Houdini to ship at the moment, yeah, probably not the best idea. The other bit of interesting information was that they have kind of set themselves up to possibly be supplying and manufacturing pinballs for other people. Did you get that bit? Yeah, I did. Like a lot of... And they didn't obviously say who it was, but they were pretty much saying everybody gets their stuff from them. Yes. So they supply... Well, they supply... They did mention Stern. And that's how they got into business, right? So they were supplying Stern with like light boards or something, some electronic part in pinball machines. And they thought, hey, this is pinball. I wonder how they're going to order. And they were just ordering so many that I guess they were able to figure out the amount of pinball machines that Stern was moving. It's like, okay, let's enter this space because this is obviously a bigger industry than we thought. So, but yeah, so the bit I was trying to get to is that they want to also manufacture pinball machines for, I guess, the homebrew. Yeah. Yes. You just come up with a design or a David Hankin, take it to them, they'll build your machine. There you go. Jack Danger, there's somebody that'll build your machine. I don't think Spain will be too happy about that. No, no. Obviously we are. Yeah, I mean, I'd love to know what, you know, not that I'd be interested in it because I know like 0% of what it takes to build a pinball machine, but I wonder how much do you actually need to give it to them and say, I want to make this. Is it a matter of dragging and dropping pop-ups and supply for a money? Well, it could be, but what they said is they've got enough people there with talent to take over from whichever part you'd stock. So if you have just designed a playfield and all that kind of stuff, they'll then get the engineers and all that kind of stuff to work out the rest. That's what they said. They said, so if you want to go in there with everything, that's fine, they'll manufacture it. But if you want to go in there with any sort of level back to just, I've drawn something on a David Hankin, they'll do the rest. It's funny because there's a lot of a pinball machine, which is kind of off-the-shelf parts. And I guess the non-off-the-shelf parts are the unique mechs. Obviously, you have to print the play field, but anyone can do that if they have the right setup. The ball guides, I guess they're different. And then, obviously, the LCD animations and the rules. But besides that, I mean... Well, one of the things that I've grown to appreciate after speaking to some designers is it's not just about, you know, opening up CAD, putting a blank, you know, playfield down there and just throwing every fucking thing you want. Mechanically, it's all got to actually be able to work underneath the playfield as well. So, you know, that's probably going to be one of the areas where they look at it and go, yeah, your design looks pretty and I love the 15 ramps that you've got and the three subways that you've got and all that kind of stuff. However, this is actually fiction. This doesn't work. Maybe this needs to be a pinball effects machine. Do you know what I mean? I think people will go crazy and just put all this stuff, but they've actually got to be able to make that stuff work and make it work reliably and then put it onto a production line. Yeah. Also, some information. We're getting drip-fed information about Oktoberfest and all will be revealed at Expo in a couple of weeks that the fat German dude on the playfield that Joe Balsa showed was the bartender. Yes. Yeah. And I guess he... I'm not sure if he's going to be in a mode or if he's like your guide, like the one guy. Like an arranger or something. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But they did say that, you know, B isn't going to be what this machine's all about. It's actually going to be about, you know, the whole festival and other things that happen. So, you know, maybe that's... But who better to guide you through than a fat German bartender just talking to you the entire time? So let's talk about Houdini, and I'm not just bringing up Houdini because I'm going to talk about the fact that my voice is in it again. But you've got all those different modes that you do via the stage, but you've also got the jail modes, like the escape from jail modes, like escape from Sydney jail and all that kind of stuff. So you could actually have all these modes, but you've actually then just got these bar modes, for example, and the bartender could be talking you through those. Okay. That's what I think. One of the things we also talked about was a food frenzy mode. Do you think that'd be like a food fight, or do you think that'd be like eating as much food as you can? Who knows? It could be one of those. If it's frenzy, it sounds like a switch hit, and food's just going to be flying everywhere. And lastly... The big one. Yes, the big one. There will be a third slipper button, and not as in a button to control the third upper slipper, which we got a tidbit of when we did the Josh Coogler interview. This is more like a button that will be diverting, I believe, a ramp from one way to another. Kind of like the shadow, right? Right, yeah. Okay. That's cool. Yeah? I like that. Yeah, that's good. I'm excited. But I'm more excited about Oktoberfest than anything else that's going to be shown at Expo. Okay. Even more excited than the Beatles? Well, we don't know for sure if that's going to be there. Yeah. But, segue. I know. Do you like that? Yes. That was a very good segue. Yep. So, we got some information about two weeks ago about Beatles, and we did a little podcast about it, like a 10-minute segment, and we decided not to air it because, you know, the information wasn't public. Because I thought it was bullshit, is really the summary of it. Like, we were very excited. You were very excited. I kind of went, yeah, I'm just not sure whether it's true. Yeah. Well, I mean, plus we didn't, it wasn't public, so we didn't want to be the people to say anything. We already do that. No, well, I didn't. Anyway, the information is now out there in some form on Pinside, so we can talk about it. So there is a... It's not a rumour that Beatles is the next pinball machine that, you know, is going to leapfrog over months. Nobody knows that but a small group of people at Stern, and I'm guessing they have the power to pull the trigger in and pull back at any moment. You know, they could say, yes, we plan on going to Expo, and at last need to say, no, let's reveal this pinwheel machine two weeks after Expo. So it's going to be anyone's guess if a pinwheel machine is going to be there by CERN. Now, the reason why we're talking about Beatles is there's been a lot of pricing rumors that are just starting to come out. And I guess the reason why maybe the price has started to come out is that CERN might be talking now to distributors. Distributors might be then talking to their best customers because they're trying to say, hey, you need to start saving up money. Would you buy one? Because I need to know. Because, I mean, we talked about it when we did our interview with AMD. They need to kind of commit before the pinball machine is announced. So for a game like Guardians of the Galaxy, it might be a little bit easier. But for a game like Beatles, that might fetch a higher price tag and you get into the Super Ali range. Come on, Ryan. What do we know? Everyone wants to know. Like, we're just talking bullshit. What do they want to know? How much is this thing going to cost? because we put this on our Patreon page. We went out there. You said what it was. What's the price, Ryan? Where do you want me to start from? Do you want me to start? No, I just want to... I got the other... I want you to start. So isn't there like a silver, gold and platinum edition? Yeah, that's actually changed. It's the diamond version is the top one, right? Because I think diamond sales for albums is more than platinum. Okay. So diamond is the top. Platinum is the second and gold. So no one gets silver, okay? Because silver is shit. It's got everyone. You're a winner no matter how much money you spend. Yeah. Okay. Apparently, the bottom-end machine, right, which is still gold, is still going to feel very prestigious. Sure. There's about 1,960-something. Let's say 64, if I give you an example. That's how many there's going to be for that. It's kind of like a premium model. What? Apparently. You said how much it's going to cost or how much they're going to buy? How many units. How many units. Right. Okay. Yes. apparently 15 grand US. 15 grand? That's okay. That's alright. People would pay for that. Particularly... I don't know if these prices, as I said, I don't know if they're real but everyone's saying them so there must be some truth to it. People would pay I reckon these days, people would pay 15 grand for a pinball machine that is exclusive. Now my understanding is, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is there going to be a forever on the line model or are these all limited? Right. So once they're sold, that's it. They're gone. So that pushes up the exclusivity which pushes up the price. $15,000? Sure. Why not? I'd pay $15,000 for a new term machine. Okay. You wouldn't money, but let's keep on going. No, I wouldn't. Well, I'd pay $13,000. Oh no, that was Australian. That was Australian. This is more like, yeah, $15,000 US is more like $20,000 something. Okay. Sure. Okay. So the The limited edition version, which is the platinum version, apparently is about $25,000. That's getting up there. Yeah. And then there's the diamond version, which apparently I heard 100 units, but who knows? As I said, and all these things could change as well, guys, and the price could be bullshit. So what have we got? Okay, so we've got $15,000 US. We've then got $25,000 US. So I'm going to say this will be $35,000 US, knowing what you're about to tell me. We already did a podcast about that. Correct. $50,000. $50,000 US. $49,000. I got $50,000 from two people, $49,000 from someone else. So, you know, the rumours, it could be the same person spreading the same bullshit rumour, and it looks like it's coming from three sources, but it's all bullshit. But it's weird, right? Yeah. It also could be, and this is a clever thing to do, it could be, and this also does go into the category of conspiracy theories, but maybe it is, Stern, you know, testing the market, putting it out there as a rumour, seeing what comes back before they actually go, okay, well, this is our pricing. Yeah, they could have told 20 different people 20 different pricing and then when the podcast comes out and says, are $37.5 million. Oh, person B, you're burnt. You're burnt, right? Yeah. Anyway, the layout is now out there as well. We didn't even mention our Patreon because I thought people don't need to know the layout. That'd be nice if that was a surprise, right? The layout is supposedly a tweak on the 19... I should know the year. It's the Stern Electronics game, Sea Witch, okay? Yeah. Sea Witch has three drop target bangs, three pop bumpers, two spinners, four flippers. It will have an LCD screen, apparently. This is the weird thing, Marty. When you play Iron Maiden music, and I know you love Iron Maiden music, Marty, but you play the game long enough to cycle through at least one song. Sure. Or two or three. Yep. Sea Witch, I mean, my Sea Witch isn't that brittle, but the games aren't lasting that long. If my seat, which was new, out of the box, it would play so brittle that I think I could listen to about a one-minute Beatles song each time I played it. So how is this going to be a Beatles timbrel machine if it's based on... What makes the game play long, Mike? Well, you know, Beatles songs below. They were short songs, Beatles songs. Yeah? How short, though? Oh, some of them went for two minutes. these are the things that make pinball games go long ramps it takes a lot for the ball to return to the flipper pop bumpers ball save multiball and the balls being staged shoots there are no shoots on sea witch the only place the ball can get staged is if you shoot under the flipper and it returns into the lane it's a hard shot there's no multiball in the original sea witch but that doesn't mean that they couldn't tweak it enough that it could have multiball. Yep. Ball save, yeah, they can adjust that via software. It's kind of going to be weird. I mean, is this going to be like a TNA type of game? I mean, Sea Witch is Sea Witch, but what if you put modern rules onto it and what if you tweak it enough that you could repeat the loop over and over and over again kind of like Iron Maiden? I don't know. Yeah, it could do. I don't know. It'll be one of those things where you have to see it. The real disconnect is even the gold version at 15,000 US for a single-level playfield game, I don't know how people are going to respond to that. I really don't. I mean, you can pump the price at whatever you want for the super-exclusive versions, and whatever they have, Paul McCartney signed them, or it's gold trim or something, whatever, right? But if you want to push almost 2,000 units or something, there's no way they could sell 15,000 of them, in my opinion. So maybe that one is... They couldn't sell them for $15,000 is what you meant to say. They could sell a couple for $15,000. I don't think there's 2,000 people out there that would spend 15 grand on a Beaz Timber machine if it was maybe slightly above the pro price. A lot of pros in America like... We don't know, right? Right. let's talk about Supreme for a second and I'm not doing a complete parallel but I'm sort of going down into that collector mentality what we really don't know is the budget that these crazy Beatles fans have, they may actually have, you know there's probably a lot of data on auctions and sales that have happened for Beatles merchandise, for them to know that there might actually be a real market for this and we as pinball folk look at this and go, it does not make sense. But maybe there are a lot more collectors out there of Beatles merchandise that we know. I think the cream, you know, the juice, the big money they make off this is off the higher-end models and to move 1,960-something normal units, they just have to be at a lower price and people say, OK, I'll buy it. You know, because if it does sell out, then you've got the collectible pinball machine and so they'll never make it again. There'll be no vault edition. There'll be no remake for the demo. There'll be no reskinning. There'll be nothing. It's just... I mean, Joe Kamigawa said it without saying Beatles on our podcast that, you know, buy one for yourself and buy an extra one because, you know, it might be worth something one day. I mean, that's obviously him, you know, putting his salesman hat on and saying buy two people, you know... Wasn't he also saying that this is the thing that all pinheads have wanted? Yes. Okay. Yeah. not according to Roger Sharp and then 1997 yeah so I just felt that was the appropriate time to bring that up we'll see as I said I mean we're talking about it now but we don't know if it's going to be shown and we don't know what the price is but we do think it's the B to E oh and the last thing is that this will be apparently the word on the street Marty home use only I had heard that as well so no coin door well a door but not coin doors in it well it might have a coin door with a coin slot but if you hook up a coin mech to it and try and put a coin in there it'll say like it won't it's on free play forever and there'll be no option in the menu to accept coins okay which kind of it'd be very weird because has there ever been a pinball machine like that Like, you will have to go into someone's house to play it, or a bar, if they want to be cool. Like, say Sunshine Laundromat, which gets, like, every pinball machine, including Supreme. Are they buying it and saying, hey, pay at the counter, otherwise we're going to, like, kick you off the machine if you press the hard? You couldn't man the pinball machine, right? Well, yeah. I mean, there have been home edition machines released in the past. And I honestly can't remember when they were, but they were around, I think they were in the 80s. and every once in a while you'll see them come up on eBay and people are going, has anyone heard about this machine? One of them, I can't remember what it looks like, but it looks like it's got Tom Jones on the machine. I can't remember what it's called. And they were a complete failure. But I'm not saying these are different times, but I'm just letting you know that, yeah, they were home-only machines made. Okay. So, all right. We'll see how it goes. I just, you know, I'm excited for any new pinball machine, and regardless of what price it is and what they're doing, I just want to play cool pinball machines. But I just, the shitstorm that will happen when it's announced, regardless of the price. Yeah, well. I mean, people complain about Scott Danesi's pinball machine. Oh, no fucking rams. What a piece of shit. Did they? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand. Not that. No. But people have also, again, it's one of those things, you know, it's not for everybody. But, you know, and I'm really keen as well. I've been wanting Stern to revisit their old catalogue, like the Stern Electronics catalogue, for a long time. I'd love to see those old layouts modernised. For sure. And we've talked about it before as well. For $3,000, please. Yeah, for sure. All right. Anyway, let's move on. Yeah, let's talk about the Stern of the union money. What have they given? There was a couple of things I took out of it this time. Code, they say, KISS updates are currently in development with Ghostbusters still in line after the KISS release. Poor Ghostbusters people. KISS, though, will it be a KISS update as big as Aerosmith? Will it revolutionise KISS? Everyone that's had the last Aerosmith update has said it is phenomenal. Yep. I still think it's a shitpunch. It's so boring. Okay. This week in hashtag Where's the Topper, the Star Wars topper is still waiting on final approval before production can begin. We'll make a formal announcement once it's available. Exciting stuff. May, can you hear this? Yes. What does that sound like, Marty? I don't know. I don't know. That is the sound of Pinball Magazine number five. And let me tell you, Marty, I'm not sure if anyone has ever said this, but the Pinball Magazine, it's more like a book than a magazine, Marty. Have you ever heard that before? Yes. Yes? Okay. So I got my Pinball Magazine number five. I'm almost finished reading through the one million pages it entails, and you'll get that very soon, so you can have a look through it. yes it is huge Marty it looks like about twice the size of my Pinwall magazine number 4 and I read the interview with Scott Danesi Jack Danger I can't I'm not into EM so I'm not going to lie I mean if I was into EM I would have just a massive hard on over this 200 and 260 pages or so on Wayne Neyens but unfortunately I'm not into I'm not into EM so I will save that for another day when my pinball adventure kind of ends with EMs. But, wow, absolutely amazing and astounding that Mr. Jonathan Euston has gone through all the effort of making that. It did take a very long time. We did have him on the show almost a year ago, talking about him just finishing it up. And, yeah, Wayne Nones is still alive and kicking it, man. He's 100 now, and he's got this book to kind of commemorate his life. so we will put a link. Let me know when you finish reading it and I'll have a read after you. Yeah. When I was kind of flicking through, Marty, there was this really weird ad and I'm like, what the F is this? And I think I might have seen this before but I didn't really look into it. There is some Chinese company. We talked about the Battle Penny last week. Yes. Which is kind of like Joust to play a pinball machine. this Chinese company that's got the same thing. I can't tell you who it is. I know. And do you know what? I know you sent that to me during the week as well. That's been around for a while. I've seen that sometime now. Has anyone played it though? No, I don't know. But it's... The Battle Penny thread in Aussie Arcade has talked about it as well. So it's been... People have known about it for some time. I just don't think anyone... I thought this was a head-to-head exclusive. No. It's called Super Pinball ping pong bar. Yep. And it is the most Chinese written ad you've ever seen. It's full of Chinese-isms. Yeah. Like, due to the advantages of cost-effective, highly efficient, and easy to use, we achieve the best feedback from end users. That's one of the selling bullet points. There's only six bullet points. That's one of them. Anyway. Love it. Interesting. Yeah. Now, Mafia Pinball, that game. Yes. Are we getting one? Yes, I'm buying one for us, Marty. Is that what you're saying? No. I do know that, well, we're hoping to get one for Flip Out at the end of the year. Yeah, Joe Newhart got his and I unboxed it. And, yeah, if it wasn't so expensive, Marty, I don't think people would be reacting the same way. And maybe that's why I had that kind of violent reaction. How much is it US? 7,500 US dollars that's a single single level playfield it doesn't really matter and it's 7,000 US that's half the price of a Beatles pin oh you got there yeah I just don't think that an unbranded kind of market pinball is quite as powerful as the Beatles in terms of marketing yeah yeah we hope to get one for Flipout I know that one has been ordered and it's on its way Do you know what's weird, Marnie? These new pinball machines, you know, I talked about it before with Deep Root, you know, when we said you don't really need the heads. I don't know if people like seeing empty head boxes. I know Stern's head box is almost empty now as well, but when you buy something that's so expensive and you open it up, like when you see, say, you know, like an old Williams game, you see all these boards that are in these cables. I don't know. There's two feelings for me. oh wow, it's a lot of cables, I hope something doesn't stuff up. And the other one is like, oh wow, I've got my money's worth because look at all the weight. And, you know, when you think about, I mean, I was going to say one of the major criticisms of Highway, but let's just say it's not one of the major criticisms of Highway, but with the machine itself and its form factor, people really didn't like the backbox, and I didn't like it either. It just didn't seem like pinball. It kind of made it look like a toy. Yeah. People have OCD over this stuff, but it's for the... You know, to decrease the size is probably better for the overall... Anyway. There you go. I'm bored of this news. Let's go to... Social media watch. So dumb. Okay. This is basically where we chuck all of our shit stories. That's what it's now turned into. Yeah, there was a business insider video about Jack Danger and stuff I can't remember, this was like five days ago, I put it in there I can't even remember what it was I'm so sorry No, I can't, this was the Stern one, I guess Ah, I can't remember I can't remember, I remember there was one where there was an Aussie chick over in the States Ah, yes, I didn't put that in there And apparently, the person I was interviewing said, oh, you know, it's not like Australia where you're deprived of games? Mate, we have more games per capita here than you know. Anyway, I want to talk about this casserole thing. Okay, do it. You're into cars, Marty. Do you like casserole? Well, isn't casserole an oil? Yeah. Right. So you're asking me, am I into oil? Yes, Marty. Yeah, of course I am. Like a silly question. So there was... This is a custom version that was made, yeah? Yeah, so Bathurst was on last weekend, which is this car racing thing I know nothing about. People that are into cars, people that are into, I guess, their V8s would know all about Bathurst, and it's pronounced Bathurst, not Bathurst. I'm thirsty for the bath. Bathurst. Whatever. The important thing is that there was a competition on, and there were two custom pinball machines made by a place in Australia, and the highest score of the weekend gets to keep one of these custom pinball machines. Now, when people think of custom pinball machines, they say, oh, well, it's just some crappy pinball machine that someone can get cheap, and they re-theme it, they change a couple of the sounds. This seems to be one or two steps further than that, because apparently it's kind of like Firepower. Yeah. But that has... Yes. Where does it have extra money? Well, what I noticed, from what I can see, it looked like a blurry picture, but you've got a left hole, and where that is, they've actually put a flipper there to the right of it. And also, over on the right-hand side, there's normally three stand-up targets, and there's an additional bank there. Yeah. So it kind of looks like they've mashed a couple of... you know, Williams from the day machines together. So it kind of, in a way, it kind of reminds me of Flash. It also reminds me of Firepower. It's a bit of both. The thing is, you would think you could make those modifications without, you know, and all the inserts would kind of be the same. Like you could just drill a couple of holes and add some mechs. All the inserts are in different spots as well, right? Yeah. so I mean it's pretty much a custom pinball machine it's not a I don't know it's more interesting than just slapping a decal over an existing pinball machine and changing some sounds as well I'm getting at yeah yeah it's interesting when I was at Flip Out there was a I can't remember what it was and there was actually two of these machines almost side by side and it was an old EM and then somebody had put a a ramp in an old EM and I think where there was a a scoop or an eject, they'd wired that to an opto on the ramp so going up the ramp had the same effect as going into this hole So the company is called Custom Pimble dot com dot u and they've made machines for Samsung Marty yep they've made machines for a whole lot of crispy crunch fun I don't know like a chip brand or something ok yeah bursting with flavour yeah literally a chip company well put this picture so the machine I'm talking about is actually a very well known EM machine it's called Jungle Queen everyone knows Jungle Queen it's a very popular and we'll put the picture in show notes so you can see exactly what I'm talking about. We should totally get this company on the show, Marty. For sure. They're in Brisbane, Brisbane, Vegas. Okay, what else can social media watch? Hook, Marty. Yes. You love Data East Hook. It's really one of the worst games ever. Because of the ramp? Not just that. Hook, hook, hook. No, it's just, it's one of those games where it lacked, what does it lack? It lacked connection. It lacked... Good rules, good layout. No, it lacked effort. It was one of those ones where they're like, let's just fucking churn this game out. We'll put some basic rules in there, pluck on some art. It's got a ramp. It's hook themed. It looks the part. Let's drag some pop-ups into the playfield. I don't know. I don't know God I hope it's not someone that we've interviewed that was on it but it just a really really uninspired game anyway they go for like what a grand and a half to two or three grand in the US in Australia I mean I bought mine when I bought it It came for free with a pinball machine, basically. Right, that's how bad it is. Yeah. And I got scared because, you know, those little mini DMDs cost so much. I think they've been remade now, but back then they cost like 600 bucks, which is like worth almost as much as the machine. yeah Robin Williams the late Robin Williams had a hook pinball machine gifted to him by Steven Spielberg what do you think it went for at auction Marty well it's right there in the show notes so you can just pretend oh I reckon if they normally go for $1,000 I'm going to say $5,000 11 grand more than that Marty $16,000 can you believe that Marty no plus a 24% buyer's premium Oh, my gosh. So that pretty much means, like, in Australia, like, close to 30 grand for a hook machine. And I don't think, I mean, if it was his machine, he wouldn't have been, like, signing it. I don't think famous people sign their own stuff just in case they die one day. But anyway, yeah, that's a pretty expensive hook, Marty. It really is. So, there you go. What else happened to this? Sorry? I saw on social media. Yeah, TTF. You going, Marty? Well, probably not. Well, I was thinking about it, but I believe, is it the tournament that sold out? Yeah, the major tournament there sold out in about 30 minutes, and it only has, I think, 160 people are allowed to enter. And if you saw the size of Texas, Marty, everything's big in Texas. The allocated space they have for the competition is so small and insignificant compared to the rest of it. Surely, surely, Colin MacAlpine, you can ask for more room. And if it's limited entry, you can get more people in. Deep Root have generously upped the ante, and I think the person who wins will get four grand US dollars. Holy crap, that's a lot. That makes it one of the biggest comps in the world, you know, prize money-wise. probably the second biggest, right? Like, Pingberg, then that, then maybe It Never Drains. Yeah. I don't know. It's up there. It's up there. It's up there more than you'd get in anything in Australia, that's for sure. Yeah. I bought a ticket for it, but it was after it was sold out, so I spent $0 and I'll be, like, whatever, on the waiting list. On the waiting list, right. Just in case I go and just in case I want to spend half my time playing tournament games instead of checking out all of Deep Roots. Amazing. Do more machines. Yeah. Okay. So also on social media watch, there was a video that just popped up on my feed, this amazing save on... Hi! Did you see that at all? Yes, I did. Yes, I did, mate. Hey, that was one of our most watched videos. I know. That's why I'm putting it in the notes. Just a side note, because I'm coming by to ask you after, Did you change some of the settings on Facebook? Because when I went to post that other video that I posted on Facebook, it did this weird, like, Facebook... Premiere thing? Yeah, what is that? No, that's just a new thing on Facebook. So I posted the video, and instead of it just appearing, it says, ah, we're going to go live in one minute. I know. And it makes it a live video, so everyone watches it, and then... No. Okay, that's weird. That's exactly what happened to me, and it was, you know, anyway. So check that out. That was an amazing, miraculous save, and my crowning achievement when it comes to pinball skills. Did you see that other cool video that we posted, Marnie? Yeah, of course I did. Have you ever seen that demo machine before? We were talking about the micro-something pentacup. Well, I saw it a day before when somebody else posted it, yeah. Yeah, I just fell into it. Yeah, of course, that's all we do. Like, none of this content. Even the stuff we're talking about now, it's not original. So we just steal everybody's content. Well, that was the whole premise of this show, remember? Yeah. So. Don't hide it. We are collating information. Say it loud, say it proud. And last, I can't be bothered doing the last one, that's too long. Yeah, cool. Move it on. Patreon, mate. Let's talk about Patreon every week. Woo, Patreon. Woo, give us your pictures. The reason why I'm bringing this up is we have to give away something now, because we said we're going to give away to our Patreon subscribers a dialed-in headbox side cabinet decal signed by Mr. Jack, Mr. Jack himself. Did we really say that? Yes. Oh, God. How many people do we have, Marty? Oh, 10, 11 maybe? We have to give them a shout-out as well, Marty. All right. So, let's give a big shout-out to Andreas, Jeff, Joe Fucked, bitches, Joshua, Kevin, Matthew, Michael, Pinball Evangelist, trainers, and the pins. I feel sorry for Jeff because no one knows which Jeff it is. It could be any Jeff. Jeff Rivera. Woo-woo. The now-known and the generous Jeff. He is the generous Jeff. Okay, so in the order that Marty read them, that's everyone's number. Is that 10 people? One, two, three. It's 10 people. Okay, I'm going to generate a number from one to 10 and whoever I read out wins. Please generate a number from zero to 10. Sure. One. Duh. Andreas well done cool you're going to post that out Ryan and pay the shipping it's going to come out of the Patreon funds and we have to make a spreadsheet now of all of our expenses oh my god I just wanted people's money I didn't want work additional work anyway if you want to support us on Patreon we will gladly accept your generous donations and just yeah Thank you to everyone that has donated. We've been overwhelmed with the support and the messages. Yeah. And, I mean, like, we already had the Roger Sharp interview done two weeks ago, or a week and a half ago, so we kind of gave the Patreon people that as well. So they got it early. All right. Let's move on to... Slam the Top 100, also known as... Pinslam, baby. Pinslam. So last week, I got Frontier, and you got Cosmic Gunfight. Yeah. You didn't stand a chance. Well, I didn't, because Frontier looks freaking amazing. But someone made some, you know, Jeff Teolis of Pimple Profile fame, he made a good point that the game sucks, because if you hit the, and you can only hit the drop targets from the right flip arm, if you hit it with a perfect shot, you'll get left out lane drains. Sure. Yeah. Not on every game. Not on every game. Just the games that Jeff Gillis plays? His skill. Okay. He's not hitting it right. But I'll actually tell you, the reason why you didn't stand a chance was you gave me the best freaking gif you could ever give. You know, a bear doing like a roundhouse kick. That was awesome. My gif was good too, but there's a weird thing where you can't centre the gif. Like, it gives you this big gif, but if it's not a square, it's just going to do whatever's in the middle. Anyway. Okay. I was looking for people... I got 87% of the votes, everyone. That's probably the biggest... You know what's not fair? When you got Rob Zombie and I got Medieval Madness, you somehow almost nearly won. When I get the shit in, it's a blowout, because I just give up. I'm like, yeah, you win. Yeah, no, that's right. You're like, come on, let's do it. No, that's right. Medieval Madness, Rob Zombie for life. Mark Ritchie. Mark Ritchie. So, this is the point. If you know you're going to lose, then go completely the opposite way and try to get the anti-vote. Okay. That's the way you can do it. I'm not good at arguing. I'll lose all my arguments with my wife. Okay. Let's do it. Please generate a number from 100 to 200. All right. 141. Ah, yes. Radical. Ooh. Oh, we're saying that was just on the low avatar. Oh, I like avatar now. Please generate a number from 100 to 200. All right. 122. NBA Fastbreak. Yep. Got it. Okay. This is going to be a good fight. This one's going to be closed. Got it. All right. Well, you have to go first, mister. Okay. I'm going to talk about NBA Fastbreak. This is a freaking awesome game Really, really underrated I'm going to talk about the bad first It's got really bad R&B What was it called at the time? It was kind of like R&B songs Yeah, it was like Bob Brown sort of was all about it Yeah, yeah You know what I mean? Belle Biv Devoe in the house Yeah, I'm doing that But I'll tell you what this has got This has got a fantastic layout The shots are really good They feel really satisfying. It's sort of obviously a very unconventional scoring system. People didn't like the fact that you were scoring baskets instead of the score. Well, you can change it to the score, but don't. Leave it at baskets. And you've got the little flipper at the back that does the hoop as well. It's got great call-outs as well. I really like the rule set as well. It's very easy to understand what you're trying to do to get to the wizard mode. Really fast. A lot of flow. It's a really good Gomez. And you can link two of these bad boys together for 100. There you go. That's pretty fun. Once. Never give again. Okay. Radical. What a cool freaking game. Made in 1990, right before the D&D era started. Now, we don't have a cool Back to the Future pinball machine, right? I mean, there is one, but Radical is close to it because it represents that cool, you know, end of 80s, early 90s, wow, man, yell, dude, hang 10. Talk about layout. You said the NBA fastback layout is good, Marty. Rubbish. Absolute rubbish compared to Radical. The rules in Radical, unfortunately, not the best, right? That's the only thing that's letting this amazing machine down. It was produced in such small quantities that it now goes for insane amounts. I've been looking to buy radical money for the last three or four years, and they literally never come for sale. It's like Stargazer. You have to beg someone to sell it to you, and then you've got to get out your wallet and you've got to pay for it. Because you talk about unique stuff in Fastbreak, it's all gimmicky. This is actually a unique pinball, and it's a truthy pinball with normal scoring. You've got ramps everywhere. They're all clear, so you can see the entire playfield. The sounds are amazing. I think Mr. Andrew Clark has one. I got to steal it off him. I might buy it off him. I'll offer you $10,000, Mr Clark. Done. So, funny you should say that, because the first thing I was going to say on my rebuttal was, Andrew Clark, please skip about 30 seconds. I'm going to absolutely rubbish your machine. Now, you said there's limited quantities that were produced, and they don't come up. The reason is people have scrapped these. Todd Tucky would have thrown the fucking truck in factory roof because it's so shit. It's got a really awful layout. It's just, the ball miraculously gets up into the pop pumpers. It just, nah, it's an absolute mess. And the art on this is an absolute disgrace. It's just terrible. But let me tell you the worst thing about this. The worst thing about this is it's flyer, which says, Get radical and flip over the profits. Oh, fuck me. Just awful in every way, this game. Okay, WPC95 games. Almost all of them were absolute gems, except for NBA Fastbreaker. And how do we know that, Marty? Because people, you talk about people, you know, people junk this machine, and people, no, they don't at all. There's no one using this but they use NBA Fastbreak for a donor machine. People were making medieval madness demo machines, Marty, okay, and Cactus Canyons out of NBA Fastbreak. So they were so cheap and nasty. Yes, they are now a little bit cooler than they were before, but no one has ever offered me a Radical to buy. I've been offered about 10 NBA Fastbreaks at a pretty cheap rate, and I don't want any of them because, yes, you can have a bit of fun, but who, Marty, who wants to answer NBA trivia while they play Pimwell Machines? There is nothing worse than playing shitty video modes in Pimwell Machines except for the NBA Fast Break trivia. They invented something worse than video modes in Pimwell Machines. Not to mention that ridiculous mode where you're shooting baskets. Isn't that fun? You know, they brought it back on Terminator and it's in Circus Voltaire. It's rubbish. you know, whack the flippers and score a two point or a three point. Really super exciting, riveting stuff. The layout is very stop and start. It's not! You shoot half the shots end up in that little basket area. Sure. Half the shots end up in the basket area where you've got like five holes and you press a button to score baskets. No. That's not pinball. You're just lying, man. Yeah. Anyway. I am confident that I will maybe win this week. Yep. There you go. Awesome. Anyway. That was Pinchland. Yeah. Vote on Facebook. Yeah. What's happened this week in pinball? Last Monday, when we should have been recording, we had Hashman's Super Secret Tournament. and I've got to say that it was probably the best run tournament that I've run myself, like the least amount of effort. Running a tournament at someone else's place is so much nicer than running at your own place where you've got to deal with your wife and you've got to deal with cleaning up afterwards and you've got to deal with making the machines perfect. It was really good. It was a fantastic comp. And it was. It was run really well, really efficient. It was great. So I'm not doing Rage to Arises at my house anymore, but that was kind of set up to be like this brutal kind of event. Now, at the last minute, I decided to kind of make this like Rage to Arises. I tricked everyone. I tricked everyone. But I decided to do it. Instead of doing kind of 12 rounds of match play for 96% TGP, I decided to do three hours of kind of qualifying and then the top four make it to the finals, three rounds of playoffs. I just didn't know that the machines that I set up were so freaking brutal that in three hours, Marley, in three hours we somehow miraculously, like 29 people got through nine rounds. Yep, that's right. I was there I played in it Yes That means the longest Playing game Out of all the games That were being played The four player game Was 29th long on average Yep That means Yes I said that pretty well Mustang or something Yeah ACBC I've been pretty long at games Yeah They're brutal anyway So Yeah look You had set them up brutal And I think you said At some stage You thought my head Was going to explode From rage I kind of didn't mind That there were other people That were also having shitballs as well. But they were set up ridiculously tough. But, you know, so be it. Two machines were ridiculously tough. It was Avatar. Avatar was terrible. And The Hobbit. And I put no ball save on any machine and I didn't realise, even at Rage, Short and Rise, I still had ball save, like maybe five or three seconds. That changes a lot, man. This is what happens, right? So, and, you know, we had a conversation, I think, with Jeff Teolas, friend of the show as well. who sort of said the same thing. If you are going to brutalise a machine, leave Ball Save on. If you brutalise a machine and then take Ball Save off, you're just sucking all the fun out of it. But we got through a lot of games. It was still fun. Okay, that's every single EM and, like, solid-state money. Well, but we're talking about games that weren't designed like that, right? But they can be designed like that. Yeah, but you don't... Okay, let's talk about Avatar, okay? because Avatar, you know, said it a million times, has a pretty average rule set. Sure, it does. Now, every Solid State game and every EM also has a pretty average rule set, but the short ball times go hand in hand with that, right? If a game of Paragon lasted half an hour, you would say, fuck, this is the worst game ever. But it doesn't. Sure. But there's three things that you're really looking at, right? And it's just about how you can extend the game, obviously. So when you take out plastic rubbers on the outlines, you're toughing it up. That's one thing. Yes. The second is you're taking away the ball safe. That's the second thing you can do to toughen it up. Yes. The third thing that you can do, which was the triple threat on Avatar, you know what it is, don't you? Yes. The ridiculous tilt. Oh, what? No. you could not even nudge that machine, it would tilt. So it was brutal, there was no ball save, and you couldn't even move it. So it was just like, everyone was just like, ah, fuck it. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't, okay, I wasn't allowed to adjust the legs on any machines. When I was setting up, he said, no, don't effing touch my machines, I've set them up perfectly. So I had to get like three machines that were playing too floaty, I had to get blocks and put them up in blocks, I was allowed to do that. I didn't want to remove, sorry, extend the outlanes. I didn't have time, and I don't, some machines are so old that when you go to remove the outlane, you can chip a bit of, sorry, if you go to put the new outlane in, you can, like, chip the wood and all this kind of stuff. So there was two machines where I just totally removed the outlanes. That was Hobbit and Avatar. Now, Avatar, if you remove the outlanes, the area, if you remove the outlanes on some of the machines, it's not that bad because there's other posts and weird things get it, you can't move. Avatar is huge. Big, gaping area. So, but I've got to say, and maybe this is just me because I had really good games on Avatar. There was one game, Marty, where I was playing Avatar and I think I was player four and everyone was on like less than 10 million and I needed to get into multiball to pass everyone. And I did. And then I still needed to get some jackpots in multiball and then I drained and I looked up and I passed all the scores. My heart, Marty, was beating out of my chest and I never, ever have felt that playing Avatar or I don't even remember the last time I felt that playing normal pinball. I was so... You were dancing about. You were just so freaking in the moment. I was... Because I think I was in the group with you. You were having a great time on that and I think it was because it was so tough that it was a challenge to actually get it together. That's wizard mode. Getting into multiball is wizard mode. Anyway, how did we go, Marnie? Well, one thing that happened Because you actually had it timed, right? Yes And the top four went into the finals I was, with this particular, with three minutes to go I think it was I was sitting at position six I think it was And so I was just desperate for the round to finish So, because you had said If everyone's finished by a certain time then we will go to the next round. So that is exactly what happened. Somebody finished with two minutes to go on ACDC. You quickly ran over, turned it and said, right, we've got another round. I did extremely well in that last round, and I made the final four. Did you? Yes, I had a pretty good run. I was first the entire comp. Yeah, I just managed to stay in the top group and not mess up enough to drop down any position. So I was first. I got to choose the pins. I chose all the turds. Yeah, you did. You turned it into a tournament. I chose Mustang, Hobbit, and we can't really call Hobbit a turd, but this one was a turd because there was no outlanes, okay? The Hobbit and Avatar. Game one was on Mustang. I managed to win that. You came second. Yep. Game 2 was on The Hobbit You came first Correct I messed up and came third That was my mistake The next thing was on Avatar I won that You came second So the end result was that we were tied, Marty After almost four hours of competition I know We were tied We flipped a coin The game we were playing on was What was it? Aerosmith Aerosmith Yes You went first you put up a score of about 22 million or something I think I finished with about 3 million or something it was so bad I wasn't even close to starting multiple either it wasn't like one more show and I would have I was never in that game you could tell even when you even when you you turned around like I finished you just shook my hand and went yeah okay let's move on let's just pack it up I was so happy with how the night went it was like one machine fucked up the entire yeah it was just good yeah anyway I've registered the next one without telling Hashman so hopefully he'll say yes to that and I will be running it on a Friday night so Marty before we move on to the next topic of conversation you went to Pimberg right? Correct and you came 87th yes that's correct now that means you beat out 650 plus people yes I know you were better than 650 50 people from all around the world, including, like, you bet... You bet him! Former world number one. Now, for that tournament money, and you spent a couple of grand to get there, at least you get to hang out with Jeff D'Aulis, you got 12.59 wobbers. Yep. Now, how much money did you spend to get down to Hashman's competition? Petrol money. Petrol money. Alright. Like, two bucks. $10 entry you beat 28 people including superstars like Ryan C and Luke Marburg yep 13.97 whoppers what that doesn't make sense come on well it does make sense because the difference is I came first on your comp I came 87th on the other tournament yes but if the competition was out of 650 people you would have come first in that right so surely beating out 28 people doesn't, I don't know. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole Wappus thing. Josh Sharpe. No, I don't. Well, look, I'd had a dry spell for a while, so I was pleased with that, and obviously the week before at Bayside, so looking forward to those results being submitted to see what it's worth. I think it might move me up one place in Australia ranking. Yeah, that was two in a row. Good job, mate. Getting ready for World Melbourne Match Play this weekend. I am. World Melbourne Match Play. How many are you doing? Have you decided? I'm just going to do the main comp, I think. Ah, again? Yeah. Because I guess, yeah, that was your strategy last time, just everyone gets worn out by the two days before then and not sleeping, going out and partying, and then money comes in nice and fresh. Correct. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I don't need to. I don't need to win a lot of comps. Yeah. A couple. Every once in a while, I'm happy with that. Okay. So what else happened this week? Well, my Lord of the Rings arrived. Ooh. And here's what I really like about this Lord of the Rings. It is a bit of a fixer-upperer. And what I mean by that is, like, you did the report. The cabinet, you know, on the outside's got some scratches. I don't care. I'm never going to look at that, so that doesn't bother me at all. But what's really interesting, and, you know, I've played Lord of the Rings, but I've never really studied Lord of the Rings, the actual machine, looking at the machine. God, the art on the sides and even the play-through art is so low-res. It's just the side art. The side art is just disgusting. But even the main art is a bit blurry. Yeah, it's a bit blurry. I've never really noticed that much. It's not like it's pixeled like the side is, but it's quite blurry. So, anyway, that doesn't bother me. This machine plays perfectly I say perfectly A couple of little tweaks But the flippers are strong Everything works It's had LEDs put all the way through it However They are ghosting like a son of a bitch Ghosting like a bitch So what I'm really liking about this is I'm now going to fully LED this out In the colours that I like Because I think that the colours that were used Are probably a bit too red that I would like. Yeah. Warm white looks really good on latherings. I'm happy for it to be, you know, the bright whites, right? I just would prefer it to be red. Ooh. Okay. This is what happened when I got my machine money. It had LEDs all under the, you know, the hoods, all the inserts. Yep. The top, I believe, were incandescents or warm white. I went and I bought cool white. and I'm like, cool white, cool white. And I literally installed them all, turned it on, and just almost threw up. I was just like, it's amazing because it's like grassy kind of artwork. The harsh white light doesn't look as nice as the warm glow of warm white. Okay. But you can try. Yeah. If you want warm whites for the GI, I've got them. I can just give them to you. I always have at least 200 warm whites. I shouldn't say that because then people are going to message me and say, Can I grab some, Ryan? No, only for Marty. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about it later because I'm just tempted to get a kit. You know, put my machine in, go, just give me all the clothes. A kit? Yep. Like a coin taker kit? Yeah. Okay. You do know, like, a guy who imports LAPs that can give it to you for about a third of the price and you're also best friends with... I don't know anyone decent that does that kind of stuff. Ryan Wenger? He's pretty decent. He is decent. Comet Pinball, sponsor of the show. Correct. Not really, but he is awesome. Do you know, buying a kit is just such a new thing to do, Marty. But you know me, and you know how lazy I am. It's so expensive. I'm so lazy. It's like $300 for a kit. Pay $5,000 up for that lazy. Give me $300 US, and I'll fucking do it for you. Better LEDs. Sure. Nah, I'm brothers. I think the other thing is well I don't know whether I mentioned that my Wizard of Oz the magnet stopped and I troubleshoot it found out the fuse that wasn't working went and bought fuses put a fuse in and now the magnets work amazing is that your first repair Marty? yeah no James came over and did it well no I admittedly I went and bought the fuse and put the fuse in. I had no fucking idea how I was going to work out, which there's like 10 fuses in this thing. Oh my gosh, so hard, 10 fuses. We even had to get like a multimeter out. Like what is one of those things? What is a multimeter? The funny thing is you probably have all the tools as well. I've got a multimeter. Like I bought one. I don't know how to use it. Okay. Anyway. Hey, we're just sitting together as well. We went to Anthony's house. Oh, we did on Saturday night. Yeah, that was fun. That was really good. I've said it a few weeks ago I'll say it again I'm really starting to like Guardians of the Galaxy I put a trade offer out for Adam's family to get Guardians of the Galaxy and someone contacted me and they said how about you sell me your Adams and then you go and buy a Guardians of the Galaxy I'm like I don't think you understand me I want a cheaper Guardians of the Galaxy I know I can sell it and buy one anyway a lot of people want my Adams and I think a lot of people what my Adam's money is, because I said it's pretty trashed, you know, playfield-wise, it comes with the new playfield. People think I got the pinball machine really cheap. I didn't. No, you really didn't. I spent a lot of fucking money on it. Oh, I know. And I will get the money back. Anyway, this week, Quicksilver money. Yes. I got it working. Okay. Yeah, it was just a bunch of cables that weren't, like, had to be... It still looks shit, though. Ah, well, it looks shit, but I don't care about the looks. Okay, fair enough. Fuck, it is. The sounds on that game are mesmerising. I love the sounds on that game. Especially when you get inside that scoop and it goes... Yeah, Quicksilver is absolutely one of my favourite stones, no doubt. They should... Beatles. I wonder if it's too big for Sean. Yeah. Sea Witch. The Sea Witch layout is shit compared... I mean, like... No, Sea Witch is nice. But there's only so much you can do with that. But with Quicksilver, you've got more stuff. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I want to get my machines working like that Paragon. That Paragon is inspired to have a smooth playfield. That's the number one thing, right? Smoothness. So I went on the website, that German guy's website, that sells the playfield protectors, and unfortunately there are none for any of the four machines I want for. So I emailed him. I said, these are my four machines. you don't have on your website, are they coming out soon? And he says, it's not high on the priority list, so not now. Not in early 2019, like maybe late 2019, which in pinball terms means like 2022. So I'm like, fuck this. I'm going to make my own playfield protector because all it is is you need to just cut it out. And the problem is I'm not one for precision, Marty. I'm a hack job kind of guy. I know, I know. so I've got to figure out I've asked a few people and some people have given me some names of places I need to research to buy the material and then I have to figure out, I guess I take everything off the playfields, and they're single level playfields so that won't take more than an hour or so and then I guess lay a piece of paper on there, draw everything out and then try and somehow cut this super thick plastic over it yeah, it's probably a massive task, but my question is, I probably should just go inside and look this up, how do you cut around star rollovers? Oh, okay. Big silver has two star rollovers, so, yeah, but because they're, you would have to just make them super sensitive, right, because these things are, like, super thick, so star rollovers don't actually go in that much. like if you leave a gap there then the ball might get stuck or yes you could scalpel it and cut around it perfectly but then it would have to activate really yeah no as possible hmm if anyone has done go ahead and help yeah see solved yes anyway um Flip Frenzy is tomorrow Marty you might be coming to help out if that offer is still available I'm hoping to yes as we are talking right now the 29th ticket out of 30 has been sold. Yep. Okay, awesome. Jessica is coming. I have no idea. The brilliance about this is that almost everyone that is coming, I have no idea who they are, which means we have to make it a fun night, Marty, so Ball Save will be on. Oh, right. Make it fun for other people. I like making the pinball community suffer, but I want to bring more people in, so I have to lure them in with the bait of Easy Pinball and then make them suffer. Anyway. Fair enough. That should be fun. And Melbourne Match Play, Marty, we'll be talking about it all next week. Correct. So it is this weekend our biggest one of the year. So very much looking forward to it. Yep. And if you're in Melbourne and you're listening to this, you don't need to pre-purchase tickets. You can just rock up on either Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday morning, Saturday night to any one of the four events. Yep. At the Golden Place. Yep. And if you need more information about it, check out pinballscore.com or join the Facebook page Melbourne Pinball Tournament. or how I'm starting or email us and we'll let you know. Yeah. Pinballscore.com is a good one. It's got all the event information there too. Cool. All right. Shall we go to the mailbag? Because we've got quite a few messages here, Brian. I've been talking too much, so my voice is really broke. Yeah, but you can read them all. I'll read some of them. You chime in when you need to. The first one was actually a comment via Patreon. So I thought there was actually some other comments about the Beehive episode. Can we read them out, please? I can't wait to read those ones out. No. They're worse. But I'll read. This was the comment in relation to Roger Sharp. Shane said, still probably the most polite person in pinball though, said, bless you when I sneezed during a panel at TPF 2014. True story. Okay. Famous. There you go. This next one. Oh my gosh. This is my favourite, favourite email of the week. This is from Rowan And Rowan writes Was just interested in knowing Some school holiday idea tips For us pinball fathers and the kids I noticed Ryan today took his kids To a school holiday children's favourite destination Where every kid dreams of going on the holidays Was it Lunar Park? No The Royal Melbourne Show? No Was it even a trip to the zoo? No It was Bunnings Warehouse, Nunawading Outdoor furniture area He was seen this afternoon playing table tennis On a makeshift outdoor table in the outdoor furniture area Of Bunnings Warehouse For over 20 minutes with his kids Sad thing, he was almost asked to move on By a 15 year old work experience kid For loitering Whatever it takes to save for another pinball I guess Whatever it takes this was funny but also creepy because someone was watching me that entire time and I don't know I don't know who they are I don't know who Rowan is how about maybe I've met him before I don't know I'm really bad with names no no no guys if anyone sees me in public and I don't know who you are please just come up and say hi come up and say hi because if you or don't say anything because if you write an email that means you were watching me and that is a very freaky concept to me um but yeah Yeah, my kid loves table tennis, and I need to get something from Bunnings, and they have a table tennis table there, and I can't stop playing. She's like, I want to get better, I want to get better. So he said 20 minutes. He missed out on the first 20 minutes before that. So I was there for almost an hour playing table tennis with my kid. I love the other thing as well, Rowan. And this is what I said to Brian when we were both reading emails to each other. It would have actually just been really freaking cool. For those people that don't know, Bunnings Warehouse is a giant warehouse. It is a hardware store where you can buy timber, you can buy paint, you can buy power tools, everything for the house. You could probably make a pinball machine. You could probably make a pinball machine. I guess pinball is there right now. Yeah. So, I would say to Ryan, how cool would it have been if you're in Bunnings and someone comes up to you and says, hey, are you Ryan from head to head? That would be so freaky. How did you know that it's me? Your voice. It would be your voice. My voice? I wasn't really talking. I was just kind of playing table tennis. It would have been your voice. That's what I reckon. So freaky, but hi, Rowan. Hi, Rowan. So George wrote in to talk about Crisco. We were talking about Crisco hampers last week. A very funny segment that was. Are you getting spammed by Crisco ads now, Miley? Yeah, I am. On my Facebook feed, I can see all the Crisco ads. He says, I'm interested in how you would describe a hamper to an American. Crisco to an American is fat in the can, even though it's got a different spelling. I went googling and I'm guessing it's a care package. A box? A picnic basket? Nope. A pinball machine would not fit. Are you familiar with what we put in a hamper here in the US? I'm unclear if we have any sort of equivalent. So, puzzled in New Hampshire. Well, a traditional Christmas hamper has things like, it'll have a bottle of wine, it'll have some crackers, some jams, maybe some cheeses, biscuits, some nougat. It'll have nougat in it. It always has nougat. Baggages. So that's what we think of a Christmas hamper. Certainly not with a pinball machine in it. Yeah, so it's not literally, they won't make a custom hamper basket to fit a pinball machine. It's now turned into this company where you can put things on like that. We were just silly because we were bored. Because there was no use for three weeks. Correct. So speaking of Christmas hampers, so Andrew McLean, I think head-to-head should have a real Christmas hamper and use it as a segment each week to talk about. Each week you add one more thing to it and then people know what crappy item it is. People submit a $1 or $5 contribution to Patreon for the chance to win the hamper. It has to have really cheesy things in it that no one really wants. thanks for the suggestion Andrew but it was always what it was going to be so like spam in a can a small bottle of tomato sauce a packet of twisties cheap bonbons a Chinese finger torture toy a roussac maybe a pinball poster a head to head t-shirt an autographed photo of you two a Mars bar a bottle of Fanta some tinsel a gift voucher to Domino's Pizza I think you get the idea we really do except that all of those items look far better than anything I was going to put in it So, anyway. You know what? I was thinking about this as well, and, like, wouldn't that be a fun thing to do? And I was like, oh, my gosh, the effort. Do you know who would be excited enough to do this? Mrs. Pin. Mrs. Pin! I actually thought that, and I'm like, should we message Mrs. Pin and say, hey, can we give you money, and you make this, like, hamper? Like, every time you go shopping for the family, she would love doing that. She would say, don't give me any money. I'm fucking doing this. I'll put some Twizzlers in there Booyah Mrs. Pin Oh I should have thought about it Right Okay Let's go with this idea That's Yeah Okay Contact us Mrs. Pin There's another message From Facebook You didn't put in there Marty From Michael C And he said He just missed out On the Lord of the Rings That you got Marty Which is pretty funny He knew which machine it was From our description of that it wasn't expensive. Yep. And there was another message from, oh, it was like September, and I just saw it just 10 minutes before we started recording, from Joseph L. And he said, have you actually sat down and thought of what a Willy Wonka machine would be about? I love the movie too, but what the F translates to a pinball? What are you trying to do? Kill kids? Each mode is just trying to kill a kid. Granite in a lake of... Yeah. Load them up. Yeah. Yeah, just inflate them into a ball, put them down on a store and they get... Yeah, anyway. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Lee wrote in and said, Crikey, $3,500 for a big game. I was able to pick up a nice one recently for $700 US. It has a playfield overlay but looks and plays great. He also then sent us photos of his favourite System 11 machine, which is arguably the best System 11 machine ever. What was that? I didn't see that email. Roller Games. Okay. Roller Games. Freaking awesome. Roller Games. Roller Games. Mark Ritchie. If we ever meet Mark Ritchie, we have to just sit there and say this to him. He'll be sitting there and the two of us will just be crouching up. One on each ear. Oh, let's do it. Okay, here we go. Here's the last email, and this is a big one. And I say it's a big one because I think he sent it to us four times because we keep forgetting to mention it. So this is from a good friend of the show, Marcus. So Marcus is the one that actually does the Ross Town Retro Pinball Tournament, which I've won so many times. No, I haven't. I did it once. And so he was coming to the defence of a particular machine That he felt was being besmirched Ryan? Besmirched Great use of your vocabulary, mate You like that? Yeah, man Cool Hi, Riza and Martin Really enjoyed listening to Dennis from the Eclectus Gamers But seeing as though I've just printed centigrade 37 on t-shirts for my competition I feel the need to defend one of my favourite games Apart from the amazing artwork An actual real animated black glass Is really fun to try And meet the objective of getting the thermometer to the top And bring the girl to life And that's the story behind the game That I find people just love A beautiful girl trying to clone herself in a machine That you need to get the thermometer To 37 degrees centigrade Which is the temperature of the human body Ah Is that where the name comes from It all makes sense That brings the clone to life the number. I know. Once you do that the top of the clone machine flashes which indicates that you have to get the ball into the kick-out hole to bring the girl to life and get a free game. Getting A, B, C, D is not easy and they light the top hole for a thousand points for each letter as well as drop targets. That hole then pops the ball down the bagatelle. The very skillful part of the game that many people may not be aware of is the bagatelle. Going down the top left-hand side will exit on the bottom left which will then direct the ball to the out lane. So when the ball goes down the top, you have to start nudging to get it out of the baguettelle to stop the drain at the end. But of course, the baguettelle is where all the points are, so you need to make the shot into that top hole so it can then spit it down the baguettelle. Risk reward, mate. That's right. There's an opening on the right-hand side up from the flipper, so players also need to stop themselves catching the ball on the right flipper as the ball will go straight out the opening and drain. I love the story this game tells. It's not just a pretty face, Marcus. Yeah, it's creepy. There's a woman who's trying to clone herself in front of our eyes. It's storytelling, Marty. People always say that High Speed 1 was the first game that really told a story. I remember Jeff Parsons saying that. Jeff Parsons, if you lasted three hours into this podcast, there you go, mate. 3837. Beat it by 20, 30 years or something. It's an ENs. Yeah. Cool. Are we done, Marty? We are done, except that Clarky just messaged me and said about Radical, Dan Lee can't write code. There's so many bugs. Soren has to rewrite so much. It's been testing for six months. But Soren is doing it because it's a good layout. People don't recode shit layouts, Marty. Terrible. People have already voted, Marty. People have already voted. So you lost out. No one got to the end. They got to about an hour, probably just after the Roger Sharp interview, waiting for the pictures to come up, and then they'll click on the picture. Cool. I'm happy for that. Yeah. We are the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. Check us out on headtoheadpinball.com. Check us out on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Head to Head Pinball is our handle on all of them, except for Twitter, which is hpinball. Email us, headtoheadpinball at gmail.com, and we will read your emails after our two-and-a-half-hour, three-hour shows right at the end. No one gets to the end but you, waiting for us to read out your emails. Yep, subscribe to us on Patreon if you want. links will be in the description for all that stuff thank you everybody we will speak to you again next week bye