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Unboxing the TRUTH on Haggis Pinball - Part 1: The Customer Experience

Cary Hardy·video·49m 39s·analyzed·Aug 4, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Haggis Pinball investigated for customer fraud, QC failures, and alleged financial deception in part 1 of exposé series.

Summary

Cary Hardy presents an extensive video investigation into Haggis Pinball's collapse, documenting customer service failures, product quality issues (delaminating playfields, missing components), and alleged financial misconduct. The video features interviews with affected customers who lost deposits or received defective machines, and alleges that COVID-19 was used as a convenient excuse to mask operational problems while the company received government subsidies and exploited loopholes to continue operations.

Key Claims

  • Damien (Haggis founder) never invested his own money into the company

    medium confidence · Cary Hardy stating this as part of broader accusations of lack of faith in the business

  • Haggis cleared the factory before liquidators arrived, removing inventory

    medium confidence · Cary Hardy describing the timing of social media removal coinciding with liquidation, implying asset removal

  • COVID-19 was used as a convenient excuse to mask operational failures, not the true cause of Haggis problems

    medium confidence · Anonymous email allegation that crew worked through pandemic with government subsidies and loopholes; presented as information without evidence

  • Haggis promised delivery in six weeks to customers who paid in full but failed to deliver

    high confidence · Multiple customer accounts corroborated in video

  • Haggis' playfield delamination issue is systematic across multiple machines

    high confidence · Multiple customers (Michael, Doug) experienced identical delamination problems; Damien acknowledged he'd 'seen this problem' before

  • Haggis offered classic edition owners ability to upgrade to Mermaid Edition 2.0 code after initially selling limited editions

    high confidence · Customer account describing one-year timeline and code upgrade offer that diluted limited edition value

  • Series ticket holders paid ~$6,000 for guaranteed first-in-line access to all upcoming classic series games

    high confidence · Cary Hardy describing the series ticket program terms and customer participation

  • Haggis went dark on social media and website the same day liquidation was announced

    high confidence · Cary Hardy describing real-time observation during video premiere when he discovered erasure occurred

  • Flippin' Out distributor provided superior customer service recovery compared to direct Haggis purchases

Notable Quotes

  • “Haggis Pinball, a pinball manufacturer that went from full transparency, making promises, taking money to failing on those promises, keeping the money, and then erasing itself from the internet.”

    Cary Hardy@ 1:37 — Encapsulates the core narrative of the investigation

  • “You need to make a statement Damien plain and simple although i really don't know what you could say at this point to gain the trust from the community”

    Cary Hardy@ 0:00 — Direct call for accountability from Haggis founder

  • “It was basically like a fast pass essentially and you were guaranteed a game... that was where i was another thing i'm curious of how many series ticket holders put in money”

    Cary Hardy@ 21:01 — Describes high-value pre-order scheme that may have had numerous victims

  • “The playfield is so extraordinarily heavy I have to engineer a crate to ship it... I'm going to test it and I'm going to do this [and then he actually did]”

    Michael (customer)@ 11:01 — Documents Haggis taking responsibility for repair logistics but also reveals defect severity

  • “I started apparently started laughing I said he pulled the other way you know but I didn't say nothing from him... and uh when i saw that on facebook you could my jaw hit the floor i said he actually fucking did it”

    Michael (customer)@ 22:26 — Haggis actually followed through on difficult repair commitment, complicating the narrative

  • “COVID-19 was a very convenient excuse to cover up immediate other issues... It actually became part of the marketing mantra. No matter what the subject was, make sure you mention COVID. COVID, COVID, COVID.”

Entities

Haggis PinballcompanyDamienpersonCary HardypersonZach MinneypersonFlippin' OutcompanyMichaelpersonDougpersonGreg Boneperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Anonymous source alleges Haggis used COVID-19 regulatory loopholes to continue operations, received government subsidies, and weaponized pandemic narrative for PR cover

    medium · Email claims crew worked unpaid overtime, suppliers continued normally, government cash injections continued post-lockdown, COVID became 'marketing mantra'

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis Pinball entered liquidation; founder erased social media, website, and YouTube presence simultaneously

    high · Cary Hardy observed in real-time that Haggis social channels disappeared during video premiere coinciding with liquidation announcement

  • ?

    community_signal: Major manufacturer collapse with significant customer losses; deposits lost, full payments not fulfilled, broken promises on delivery timelines

    high · Multiple customers describe six-week promises unfulfilled, series ticket holders ($6k commitments), deposits held without communication

  • ?

    event_signal: Cary Hardy launching multi-part 'Unboxing the Truth' investigative series on Haggis Pinball collapse

    high · Part 1 published examining customer experience; plans for additional episodes with leaked information and evidence

  • ?

    community_signal: Flippin' Out distributor became reputation intermediary; customers explicitly prefer distributor relationship over manufacturer for support and recovery

    high · Multiple customers credit Zach/Flippin' Out with refund options, repair coordination, fast response; direct Haggis customers received poor communication and limited options

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.149

0:00
you need to make a statement damien plain and simple although i really don't know what you could say at this point to gain the trust from the community i don't think there is anything that you could say youtube channel gone socials gone website gone what he emptied the factory before they even got there.
1:00
This isn't just going to go away, Damien. My opinion on it is not very popular. Believe me, a couple thousand dollars means something to me too.
1:13
I think those of us that have lost deposits are one thing. I think the people that they emailed and indicated hey, your machine six weeks out, let's go ahead and give, you know, go ahead and pay them full. And then they did, and they never got a machine. Now, now you're talking about some serious damages.
1:37
Haggis Pinball, a pinball manufacturer that went from full transparency, making promises, taking money to failing on those promises,
1:52
keeping the money, and then erasing itself from the internet. Now, the assumed reason why Haggis failed was due to COVID-19.

high confidence · Multiple customer testimonies crediting Zach (Flippin' Out owner) with refund/repair options unavailable through direct purchase

  • Haggis quality control issues include missing leg levelers, missing power cables, oversized bolt heads, cockeyed hinges, and playfield installation defects

    high confidence · Multiple customer unboxing experiences documenting specific QC failures

    • Anonymous email source (read by Cary Hardy)@ 16:33 — Core allegation that COVID was weaponized as PR shield for internal failures

  • “Zach and Greg were both attempting to reach Haggis, and... communication was, I would say, poor... if it's important, one, I would have expected a very prompt response from the game manufacturer.”

    Doug (customer)@ 32:22 — Documents breakdown in manufacturer responsiveness

  • “I think even when the truth is revealed, I do not feel it's going to be enough for a lot of people. And you're going to have the deniers that are just going to refuse the truth.”

    Cary Hardy@ 26:45 — Acknowledges limits of evidence gathering and community skepticism

  • “We're all lunatics in this hobby. Come on.”

    Michael (customer)@ 23:51 — Meta-commentary on collector psychology and why people continue investing despite red flags

  • “I'm not going to tag a distributor on an informed decision that I made... this is just me, I'm not casting dispersion on anybody else”

    Michael (customer)@ 14:19 — Customer absolving Flippin' Out of responsibility for his own informed high-risk purchase

    • Ken Cromwell
    person
    Fathomgame
    Centaurgame
    Haggis Fathom Mermaid Editionproduct
    Pinsideorganization
    Northwest Pinball Expoevent
  • ?

    community_signal: Flippin' Out distributor demonstrated industry best practices in customer recovery: rapid response, refund/credit/repair options, emotional support

    high · Zach responded 'right away' to issues, coordinated repairs with specialists, offered multiple resolution paths including store credit and direct refunds

  • $

    market_signal: Haggis asset removal prior to liquidation; alleged clearing of factory inventory before official liquidator involvement

    medium · Cary Hardy's observation that social media erasure, website removal, and liquidation announcement occurred same day; speculation about storage facilities

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Haggis founder Damien did not invest personal capital in company, suggesting lack of personal commitment or faith in business viability

    medium · Cary Hardy's assertion based on leaked/research information, framed as evidence of low faith in company

  • $

    market_signal: Limited edition dilution strategy where Haggis retroactively allowed classic edition upgrades to mermaid status after initial LE sales

    high · Customer describes one-year gap where mermaid edition sold out, then Haggis offered classic owners ability to upgrade to 2.0 code for additional fee

  • ?

    product_concern: Quality control failures across multiple machines: missing leg levelers, missing power cables, incorrect bolt head sizes, cockeyed hinges, playfield installation defects

    high · Michael and Doug document specific unboxing failures; Cary Hardy questioning QC process based on pattern

  • ?

    product_concern: Systemic playfield delamination affecting multiple Haggis machines due to protective overlay material and bolting methodology

    high · Michael and Doug both experienced identical delamination; Damien acknowledged pre-existing awareness ('You're not the only one'); design requires full playfield replacement, not field repair

  • ?

    technology_signal: Haggis implemented experimental protective playfield overlay using friction-fit material over artwork; created new failure modes (cracking, delamination) without easy repair path

    high · Cary Hardy explains design strategy and unintended consequences; customers describe bulging/bubbling results; acknowledged by Haggis as requiring full playfield replacement

    • 2:02
    Damien even stated that COVID-19 nearly killed their company. How did COVID-19 really affect you as a pinball manufacturer? well I mean to be completely honest it probably wasn't that far off actually sinking the entire company but what if I told you that was a lie Damien's been lying to all of us Damien had little faith in Haggis Pinball so little that he never put a single dime of his own money into the company this and And much more I'm looking to reveal to all of you as information gets leaked out in this series I'm calling Unboxing the Truth. In this horrible story, I am a tiny slice of it. So many people got so tremendously hurt. He said that money was going into an escrow account. How much money do you think that Damien has stolen from you? He clearly lied, and it can be proven that he's lied, and he's been deceptive and misleading and all of those things that don't make a good individual.
    3:24
    You've only been in the hobby for how long? I was looking at some of my old photographs in my phone trying to discern that. I would say the first or early second quarter of 22. Okay. And so like, how did you discover Haggis in general? Like as like, you know, first impressions, you know, kind of thing. How did it come on your feed? You discovered them? What happened? Well, I saw some of the videos on YouTube. I was building a collection. I'm mostly modern, almost all new in box, because frankly, I'm trying to become a better technician on these machines. And it's a learning process and a rather steep learning curve. And I wanted to go with classics. so then when I saw that people were remaking them well then I got my CGCs um I was able to secure some of those and I saw okay what about Fathom so by the time I contacted uh Haggis and got on their website all the mermaid editions is sold out but they still had the classic and I did the deposit directly with them I think 1200 to 1500 dollars and uh just kind of forgot about it Then, as you remember, they caused all that turmoil when they said, okay, we're going to offer the mermaid-type programming for everybody. Now, in hindsight, this was a red flag, because they were only going to be making so many mermaids and so many of the classic editions. and one thing that majorly separated the limited edition or the mermaid edition from being the lower tier was the 2.0 code. So a year goes by and now they're offering those that have the classic edition the ability to pay an extra fee to upgrade their classics to essentially a Mermaid Edition.
    5:25
    Which makes the Mermaid Edition less limited. You're getting the missing main feature with the 2.0 code.
    5:35
    And I would love to say that this isn't, you know, common. But it's becoming much more common these days that manufacturers start things out being limited. and they make it basically no longer limited so they can bring in more cash flow.
    5:56
    So I contacted Haggis and said, hey, I want that too. So they said, great. So I ordered that as well.
    6:04
    And then Flippin' Out became a distributor and I followed them rather closely and then I found out they had a new inbox in stock. and I thought well that's unusual and actually it was kind of a red flag Gary because I thought what about all these people that don't have one yet but yet the distributor has one in stock something's not right but I thought you know I'm going to go ahead and get it so I got it contacted Haggis and Damien said fantastic we'll take your deposit we'll apply that to um and by that time by the way the timeline is getting kind of tight but I had also ordered an oblivion the centaur he said okay we'll take the deposit you put on the classic and when your when your machine is built we'll take that off as well and then um but you'll have the deposit with flipping out as well I said okay no problem and uh so that's how that started just got some more images and video of a fathom where the plate build is lifting as probably the one of the worst ones I've seen that would suck you spend thousands of dollars waited who knows how long then you finally get it and it's essentially unplayable so i i think you know definitely in hindsight for me is like the first red flag was whenever they decided to go hey you know what we're going to give everyone the ability to upgrade their classic to a mermaid kind of thing. And it was like, I think that was another way to hopefully get some more cash flow in kind of thing. Yeah, and I'm one of the guys that I jumped on that immediately. I thought that was great, but you're right. In hindsight, that was a red flag. And so I've got this email from an individual saying that they've received their mermaid edition evidently this year not too long ago and that they've had some interesting conversations with Damien and his wife and would be happy to share with me details so of course I respond back with yes and I have yet to get a response back from that email and that's the thing about this is like i especially with reading everything and when i put out that video my latest one about haggis like during the stream of that the premiere i'm getting messaged that hey they're no longer on social media they're no longer on youtube i'm like what and so i start going through and i start seeing that like yeah they're basically wiping everything it's like they had my video one and while my video's playing they're wiping and clearing their self off the internet kind of thing and that day is when i guess they signed over to liquidation but i think what the most damning thing about that whole thing is that they knew they were going into liquidation so it looks like they cleared out as much as they possibly could before the liquidators came in to start putting tags on everything and taking an entire inventory of stuff so it's like i wonder what all he took and put into a storage facility somewhere and that eventually he's going to sell off or do whatever with kind of thing although the frustrating thing about it carrie just i'll bring my story a little further because here's the other side of me dealing with damien where you know i thought it was a scam but he was actually doing what he said i get the I get the fathom. Beautiful game, by the way. Absolutely gorgeous. Very well packaged. Set it up, play it. And my tech came over to take a look at it. And we're testing it. And he's going, you know, the path of the ball's not right over here. Something's wrong. So we pulled the glass and it had a bubble in the play field. The play field had delaminated. So I took a video. I sent it to Zach. And I think I sent one to Damien direct.
    10:47
    So Damien reaches out and says, hey, we've seen this problem. You're not the only one. We thought we'd caught them before they went out. You're going to need a repopulated play field. my problem is the play field is so extraordinarily heavy I have to engineer a crate to ship it and I'm going to test it and I'm going to do this and I said great is there some way I can just take try to repair this when he said oh no this play field is extremely different from normal play field I wouldn't want to try to do it. It's a friction fit. It's not an adhesive. You're going to need a fully populated playfield. All right, so let's talk about this playfield issue that Michael was mentioning, and this is actually becoming more common with other Haggis games. The material that he decided to use to put on top of his playfields, the wood portion to give it protection, is becoming delaminated and it's separating from the play field and this is due to heat
    12:05
    needless to say that is a very big problem that is not an easy fix I said okay well this dance went on for about five months and then Zach reached out to me with flipping out and in an extraordinary customer service indicated to me that hey you danced with this long enough We'll either refund you directly, we will take a store credit, or we'll have it shipped back to me and I'll have it repaired here by a guy that wants to take that project on that I have a lot of faith in. So I took the store credit.
    12:53
    So in hindsight, buying from Flippin' Out really saved me on that. If I bought direct, I'd be stuck with an orphan that didn't really work. Then I found out like a month ago on Facebook, I think I sent you the photos.
    13:10
    There was a guy on Facebook that said, hey, I had a problem with my fathom. And the exact same story I had. and he took a photo of the crate and sure enough there it was and it looks like a space capsule he engineered it you know aluminum steel everything and i'm like well gosh he wasn't lying was he he was going to do that so you know on the one hand we're like haggis the bad guy and i get that especially if they took full money from people and then never sent the product that's a whole different level from people who lost their deposits. But he apparently was trying to do what he said. So, have me scratch my head a little bit, Kerry.
    13:56
    That's what I think was the most damning, is telling people that, hey, your game is ready to go, or we're going to start building it. Be ready in six weeks. I've always made a distinction between those people and those of us that lost deposits. And then I had a deposit down on Centaur. and then again back to flipping out and zach going above and beyond saying hey i'll refund your money i told him and look this is just me i'm not casting dispersion on anybody else this is just the way i feel i'm like zach i knew what i was getting into i knew that there was some problems with this company i ordered the machine anyway i'm not going to accept a refund i'm just not can accept it. I appreciate the offer. Thanks, but no thanks. Now, everybody else, more power to you, no problem. It's just me. As a guy that runs a business, I am not going to tag a distributor on an informed decision that I made. Now, this email is a little bit longer, but it states, for starters, the entire crew worked right through the whole pandemic. How? All of them had legitimate work permits. How? Management exploited a loophole where if you installed a click and collect button on your website, you instantly became a safe online retail shop and could therefore continue operating or manufacturing without missing a beat. And it gets better. Not only did the entire crew work right through, but most of them also put in huge amounts of overtime, predominantly unpaid. Nearly all suppliers continued supplying in normal fashion and speed, with only a few overseas deliveries being delayed or with a slight price hike. for the icing on the cake.
    15:59
    Haggis was paid many lump sums of cash from the government to see the business through the worst of it and keep them viable. This continued not only during the duration of COVID-19, but also even after lockdowns were lifted. COVID-19 was a very convenient excuse to cover up immediate other issues confronting them when production began in the new factory. It was a sympathy card and got played on many occasions. It actually became part of the marketing mantra. No matter what the subject was, make sure you mention COVID. COVID, COVID, COVID.
    16:43
    And that sympathy bought them time. Time that was much needed to try and steer the shit show that was going on behind the scenes back on track so once again information but i've got no evidence to back it up you know you had a lot of people that were still holding on to hope that you know eventually it's going to take a long time we're going to get more games and that was with me even though things definitely did not look good and it's one of those things where during the unboxing and stuff like that and talking with people. It was, I think all of us were in agreement that we don't know if they're going to make it kind of thing. And then it was like, well, at least they're still making games. But it's like, how are they still making games? Well, obviously they're still making games from getting money from people saying like, hey, we need your $10,000 or whatever for your Fathom. Their game's ready to go in six weeks. I'm just curious of how many people they had working there because it's slow as the games are coming out. And that was my thing. I'm like, you know what? They're still making games. They're still getting them out the door. I mean, I can beat on them, but, you know, at least they're still getting games out. But it's whenever I heard that, hey, they haven't made any games in like 45 days or something like that. There's been no communication, especially with Zach, no communication. That's where I was like, okay, hold up, no. Do not pass go. Do not collect any more deposits kind of thing. What the hell is going on kind of thing. I wonder how many fully paid people they shafted. That's definitely something I would like to hopefully get a tally for kind of thing and just to get a ballpark or an idea of how much money exactly got thrown their direction and they never – nothing ever came from it kind of thing. Yeah, because that's a quantum leap from what we're talking about. But again, I know a lot of people cumulatively lost a lot of deposits, and I get it. And I got very lucky on the Fathom, on the Centaur. My eyes were wide open. And again, just my personal opinion. For me, that's on me. It's not on anybody else. Was there a point that you just kind of knew you were never going to see a Centaur? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
    19:11
    Probably just a couple weeks after I put the deposit down. already regret I wrote it off I was just like hey if I see it fantastic you know and I can hear people screaming on Pennside oh you know it didn't mean you know the money didn't mean anything to you or whatever and that's not the case at all it's just I look for the best pieces I can for the collection I'm a collector and I thought that that looked like a beautiful game and definitely when you unbox that one it didn't change my mind yeah in fact i in fact the only hope i ever had was when you broadcast that and i go damn they might just pull this off in my mind i was like this is probably the only centaur we're ever going to see now in my mind i was also hoping that we would see more but a part of me is also like this is probably going to be the only one i think the two major aggrieved parties in this whole thing would be those that they contacted and said, pay us in your six weeks from your game. And I guess the number two would have to be the, you know, about the season pass thing. Yeah.
    20:23
    So let's talk about this series ticket thing and what this was. And I believe this was announced whenever he first announced that he was doing the classic series games. and what it was what the whole series ticket did was basically hey give us a deposit for every game coming up right now and one and one lump sum which was i want to say like six grand and that dedicates you first in line and a machine ready to go whenever they are ready to be produced kind of thing. It was basically like a fast pass essentially and you were guaranteed a game. And so I don't know how many series ticket holders put in money but there had to have been some of you out there. And that was six grand like I said just basically like hey put me down I want one of each of the games that you produce and I want to be first in line to get it. That's what that promise essentially was that was where i was another thing i'm curious of how many people went in on that man i can i even thought about it i think that's the lowest of the low right now is the fact that he still has not at least bare minimum issued a statement yeah yeah i know acknowledge that hey guys we failed whatever and do a freaking to pr to the t you know like a company memo kind of thing but the fact that he just basically wants to just wash his hands and duck his head in the sand and tell everybody else to kick sand i mean that's where i'm like that's pretty messed up i mean it blows my mind because i mean i hate to keep harping on it but to be honest with you by that last email from damien about hey we're thank you for your patience for working on that crate and i thought it was a bunch of fucking bullshit you know i was like i started apparently started laughing i said he pulled the other way you know but i didn't say nothing from him i'm like yeah yeah pal and uh when i saw that on facebook you could my jaw hit the floor i said he actually fucking did it yeah so yeah so i saw that i saw the case too and someone's playfield populated got sent out i was like oh man that's cool so they're helping out customers i'm not other thing to kind of give you just a just enough hope to where you're like they might be able to do something or maybe they're they might just they might just do it you're my faith was so low but it was a low enough to where i was like just i i wouldn't give them money but i'm like you know because i'm not waiting that long for a game and especially when i'm reading online and that's the thing is that a lot of these warnings that people could have had via pin side it's like a lot of don't get on pin side and i don't i don't blame them because i i don't like it on there either kind of thing but yeah definitely a lot of people were complaining and having their issues and how long they paid in full and stuff and i'm just like man i just that would suck it's like so if for you what if you would have gotten a request and paid for full for your centaur oh dude i I've thought about that. I hate to admit it, but I probably would have done it.
    23:46
    Probably would have. I'm that bad, man. We're all lunatics in this hobby. Come on. So here's a question. If you could go back in time, at what point in time would you have told yourself, no, don't, when it comes to haggis? I guess after that last email from Damien going, look, we're working on, we've successfully tested the crate and we'll get to this. And thank you so much. I mean, you know, my bullshit meter was pretty pegged by that point. But I didn't say anything ugly to him. I didn't say anything back. I was just, because I could tell from the written word or what I think, what I think the intent was, is he was, I didn't feel, I thought he was using his best effort, but I still thought it was bullshit. And then he and then he comes in when I saw that Facebook page I said I was really really stunned that he actually was doing what he said Which makes this whole thing even a little bit more mysterious But I still think that Damien should still come forward and fall on the sword and say something. But it seems like he's going to take the cowardly way out and just hide himself. I hate to see that. I hate to see that. Because like I said, even in this horrible story, and I'm a little, I am a tiny slice of it. So many people got so tremendously hurt. You can still see these things where he was doing what he said he would do. And I just don't, I'm having trouble reconciling the guy that would take the money from people in a full amount and then not send them a game and know that he's not going to send them a game. Yeah. one of the things that I've got to do in this whole project is that I'm having to weed out the bad eggs.
    25:50
    And when I say that, it's that I get emails from people with information, but there's no evidence to back it up. And a lot of this could easily be assumptions. they saw this or they know a person and they saw that and so the assumption is this and it's like i too am somebody that has like received negativity for actions because they think it's this and it actually wasn't and it's like no that is not how it happened that is not the truth, but, and that's going to be the big issue with this project, is that I think even when the truth is revealed, I do not feel it's going to be enough for a lot of people. And you're going to have the deniers that are just going to refuse the truth. so it's a matter of just like you know it's going to have to be it is what it is so i i had my eye on the fathom for for quite a while i i wasn't excited enough to pre-order one um and it seemed like they were kind of trickling out so i did i wasn't excited enough to get in the back of the line to get one but one point probably around a year ago uh flipping out had one or two coming in And so I caught wind of that and I was like, you know, going through distributor and getting one sooner than later. I'll spring. So, yeah, I played one at the Northwest Pinball Expo a few months previously, I think in spring of 2023. And I liked it. I mean, it was it's visually it's just a stunning game. Sounds cool, you know, and it's different than anything else in modern stuff. So it's a nice add to my collection. so got a hold of flipping out it was on its way over um and we worked it all through through them and took delivery you know about a month later once it got through customs and so it was i was traveling i wasn't able to open it right away um so finally it was saturday or sunday nice nice summer day out here i finally got into it so i opened the box and i think i'd watched an unboxing and video beforehand, so I kind of knew what to expect. I opened the box, got the legs out. So first thing, you know, I look at the legs, and I'm like, oh, there's no leg levelers on here.
    28:32
    So kind of poke around the rest of the box, and make sure everything's unpacked and there's no leg levelers. So I text Zach, and, you know, he actually texts me back right away, and he's like, hey, sorry, I've got plenty. I'll get some sent out Monday. So cool. So the problem that Doug is stating right here with him not having leg levelers, it's definitely very plausible. I mean, the Centaur that I unboxed didn't have a power cable. It's a very important piece. Luckily, pretty universal. But there was no power cable. And another thing along with that is that one out of the eight leg bolts was a different size of head on it.
    29:15
    Little weird stuff like that that kind of makes you wonder about the whole QC process at Haggis. So I wind up in the meantime, I just go and steal some off one of my other pins, get the legs on, get it down, opened up and powered on. Good so far. Launch the first ball and the ball goes a third of the way up the shooter lane, maybe half the way up the shooter lane. I'm like, all right. Yeah. So unfortunately, the older games, there's no auto or auto plunge or whatever. so you just gotta wait for the machine to go into ball search mode so eventually the ball kicks out and bounces around kind of funny and drains on me and I try it again and of course I can't eject so I wait for the ball search, ball goes out and there's something not right here there's a magnet out there where the game is really cocked on me maybe I put the leg levers on wrong or something and so I start looking at it a little closer and it's like I can see a shadow kind of in the play field And I wasn't familiar with this play field. It's not like the sterns where it's, you know, it's, I don't know how they make them, but it's like it's printed right on there. So I can see a shadow between the play field and the art beneath that. So I pop off the glass and I'm looking at it closer. And sure enough, I go and push on the play field and it's got give to it. And it's definitely, it's got a, it's got a bulge in the play field. Again, I thought maybe at first it was warped, but it was definitely a bulge of some sort. And so I take a ball and I roll it. And sure enough, you know, it's like rolling uphill. it just scoots back down again. So yeah, the leg levelers were annoying. The plunger thing, you know, even on a new stern, sometimes you need to kind of align that a little bit to make it plunge perfectly. So I was okay up to that point. But in the playfield thing, I was like, all right, we've got a problem here. And so, you know, again, I reach out to Zach and get a response right away. and he commits to reaching out to Haggis first thing on Monday.
    31:18
    And that's, you know, kind of where things, the wheels just fell off. You know, Zach and Greg were both attempting to reach Haggis, and, you know, communication was, I would say, poor. You know, I would reach out, and Greg would say, hey, you know, I reached out to the Haggis folks on Monday. I haven't heard anything yet. I found it right Friday. I'll reach out to them again. And so in that context, I felt very fortunate that I hadn't bought direct from Haggis because I even had to try to go to the Haggis website. And there was an area where you could contact them, but it didn't work. Maybe it was just my computer, but you couldn't even communicate with Haggis. There was nothing, no communicating online. I started going through the message boards and Pinside and all that, looking for other people having the same issue. And I was able to find the shooter lane thing, but nothing about the play field issue. I left the machine as it was, just pending some sort of resolution. And what I eventually heard back was that Haggis was going to figure out how to ship a playfield over. They needed to design a crate or a box or something like that.
    32:21
    And I was kind of like, OK. And so more time is elapsing and getting more and more frustrated because, you know, frankly, if it's important, one, I would have expected a very prompt response from the game manufacturer. And two, for someone building pinball machines, if you need to build a box to ship a playfield – I get it. It's going a long way, but it's not rocket science. Kerry, I bet if you need to make a box tomorrow to ship a playfield, I bet you could do it in 24 hours. now i'm going to go over this in more detail later in this segment of the video but it's like i need to explain this to some people here is that haggis was trying to implement something that a lot of us have a problem with these days with pinball machines and that's the dimpling sadly that's never going to go away sorry guys the kind of wood that we use in pinball machines these days the steel ball is harder than the wood unless you've got some really awesome clear coat even then you're going to be prone to some dimpling so they were trying to basically provide us with a game that we wouldn't have to worry about dimpling anymore and their process for doing this was putting it's not a glass but let's just imagine for mind's sake that there's a sheet of really durable glass now set on top of your wooden art playfield. Now there's holes that have been drilled to basically parallel with the holes that are already drilled for the playfield but now you need to screw down all the hardware and the mechs and stuff like that to it. Not a big deal you would think but you have two different types of materials and you also have the problem of bolting things down too tight and whenever this material is evidently got a small pressure point in a single area it cracks so that in itself is a big problem because manufacturing with something like this accidents happen but now you've made it even more difficult to create a manufacturer product due to trying to improve something i think this is something that they didn't do the whole protective layer over the playfield i think that it would have been much easier also the manufacturer save some on cost but uh i think this is definitely something that's not going to be able to be repaired easily by those that have a game right now with the play field bubbling up like doug's here and even the game that uh mike had earlier on this video this is something that if you wanted to fix it yourself you would have to disassemble the entire play field and this is what haggis knew haggis knew that it wasn't going to be an easy repair because of the way they built their play fields they couldn't send out a new play field with a new sheet of material to go on top of it and say hey all you got to do is move over all the hardware because they knew how sensitive the material was and it would just be a mess for having to depend on individuals who probably have no manufacturing experience or dealing with the drill and stuff like that to move all this hardware over and if you've seen the bottom of this game there's a lot on the back that a majority of people are not going to want to have to deal with you see a lot of mistakes that get made in this whole process guys and so i'm getting more and more irritated by this and yeah i can tell the flipping out guys are also pretty frustrated with the communication and such. And so finally I decided to just push the game out of the way. And so I go to fold down the head and just get it ready to store the thing. And I'm looking at it and I'm like, you know,
    36:26
    something's not right with that. And so I look closer and the head is actually on there kind of cockeyed. It's the hinges were not bolted to the machine correctly.
    36:37
    And I, yeah, I still have all the original, the box and such. I'm looking for any kind of shipping damage and there's none. There's no indication on the back of the back box that it's been whacked or anything like that. It just it was bolted on crooked. And so at that point, then that was I've done and I.
    36:55
    I took out my frustrations on the flipping out guys, so I probably owe them an apology for that, but they they got it. And, you know, we agreed, look, if this thing's not made right, we'll give a couple more weeks here. But if the new play field hinges everything else aren here then we done you know then the game goes back and they issue a refund And that what it came down to and so you know much like others i think you know i i saw the centaur the centaur get announced and that looked pretty cool and it had had my machine been a winner uh you know i would have uh i would have deposit money down on a centaur but you know as soon as i had those problems i just i've lost any kind of interest in and do any more business with with haggis and after that I think I did see a couple other posts pop up about people having that play field issue and much much later I think I did see someone showing that they had actually gotten a play field over in a beautiful box from haggis but that was many many months after I had my issue so I'm not sure how many people experience this but uh of course it my biggest frustration for as few games as they were making you know little thing leg levelers not being in there sort of excusable. The plunger, yeah, that was, again, getting more frustrating. So it wasn't just a little bit of an alignment, like on the sterns, this thing just was not, something was wrong with it. And the playfield, of course, if you had taken the time to play a game on this before you shipped it, you would have seen that. And, of course, when you're patching the ship, the fact that the head's on there, or the back post is on there crooked, that was just preposterous. Man, so you didn't really have much of a discussion between Haggis. Yours was all going towards Zack and flipping it out. Yeah, I was fortunate in that regard. I couldn't even figure out how to reach Cagas, frankly. So no, I was able to go through Zach and Greg, and I do believe to the best of their ability to resolve this. They tried their hardest, and again, even they weren't getting communication. So eventually they basically accepted the game back, and you don't have to divulge what happened after that, whether it was store credit or money back or whatever, but I'm guessing that whatever happened between you and Flippin' Out, you were satisfied? Oh yeah, yeah, they made it right. Okay, that's good. In your opinion, what were some red flags when it comes to the downfall of Haggis? The communication. Again, if I had been a direct customer, I would still expect good communication, but I think flipping out one or two in North America selling or representing Haggis Games, and the fact that they couldn't get any kind of timely communication, that really freaked me out a little bit. I was like, well, you know, I think they're an awfully big distributor, and if they can't get a return phone call or return email within a day, you know, that's just, there's a serious problem there.
    39:47
    And, again, had Haggis engaged directly or even through flipping out, had Haggis been very responsive and said, hey, look, yeah, we had a problem. with a new guy on the line installing the hinges in the back, or there was an issue on the boat coming over, the humidity wasn't controlled, and it was popping play fields off.
    40:07
    If they had owned up to it quickly, I might have said, all right, well, look, I'll keep an eye on the centaurs, and maybe I'll still grab one of those. But it was a communication. That's just for the few amount of games they're making.
    40:18
    Yeah, that was the biggest red flag. So about what time period did you receive this fathom? yeah i think it was right around a year ago it might have been july or august of 23 um and then uh you know for a couple months we were getting promises and intermittent communication and they're working on the the crate they're going to ship over the play field and you know as i was patient for a while and then after the hint there was the hinges thing that's when i got a little more upset about it and that's when i talked to the flipping out and We just said, look, we'll give it a few more weeks.
    40:53
    And if it's not in your hands by that time, then we'll just undo all of this and make it right. Aside from the communication, was there anything else business-wise? Did you kind of get an inkling that something was definitely going down when they announced that they had to recapitalize and stuff like that towards the beginning of this year?
    41:13
    Yeah. Well, even before that. I mean, clearly, you know, with the delays on getting the fathoms wrapped up, I don't make pinball machines, so I don't know what the constraints are making pinball machine. But I would think that the play field itself is a pretty critical part. I would think putting a cabinet together or wiring the back box or such wouldn't be quite as tricky. So if they had to send over populated play fields instead of putting those in new machines and selling those new machines, I'm purely speculating here, but if they had to do that for two, three, four people instead of selling new machines, that might have been the last straw for them. Yeah, like from me, since I've been talking to a couple of the former employees there and stuff like that, their process for building up these play fields is unmanufacturable in my opinion. And the way they went about doing it, you had to be ultra sensitive for every hole you drilled. Because if you didn't drill it correctly or too fast or whatever, it would literally crack the clear panel on top that they used the laminate. And so every little thing. So you can imagine being 80, 90% all the way through to like the very end where you're applying the apron. And then that final screw caused it to spider web out. how frustrating that would be to have to dismantle take everything off because now it no longer looks as pretty as it used to be kind of thing and so you have that and then you have what was going on with covid so they had to get a different supplier for this type of material and evidently this type of material was different than what they originally experimented with and everything seemed to be going good until things got shipped overseas and heat got involved and that caused the whole delaminating and rising off of the play field and everything so that's the information that i've got and there's like there's places that no longer ship to australia because things just happen in a route there that they arrive and they're just messed up i'm not guessing to i guess extreme heats and on the way there or whatever but yeah so it's one of those things where i think their process was just unmanufacturable on a massive scale i say massive 200 machines but what they were trying to do i understand why they're wanting to do it the reasons behind it but for as sensitive as that material was there's no way you would have to like go about building a machine on top of that material and just crossing your fingers that it was going to remain intact kind of thing that's just that's interesting because it yeah as i as i noticed that bulge and again i could push on it and and made it back up against whatever was underneath it wasn't like there was some adhesive there holding it where it would stick a little bit and pop off again there was there was a very clear clean and clear interface so yeah maybe it was an issue of them shipping across the u.s in the summertime or something like that but and that's the thing is that they were telling another person i spoke to on this and then they were telling them that you know like no it's not a matter of just shipping you a new play field because it's a friction fit try to explain that it was something more impressive that's than just sending you a new play field when it's not it's literally just this laminate material that's laid on top of the playfield, and they bolt everything on top of it to the playfield. There is no adhesive, like you said. There's nothing in between the layers to keep it stuck to the playfield. So heat and material and difference in temperatures is going to cause it to do what it did, to bow out.
    44:46
    That's interesting, because when I think back, I'm pretty sure the bulge was in a location where it was kind of in the center left of the playfield, so it was away from the drop targets. so it could be yeah just nothing was bolted down right there and that's where it lifted nothing just to support the play field yeah i mean again i'm bummed because it's such a beautiful machine and i'd laugh i said i haven't kept it on the market to see if there's used ones out there but um you know knowing it's prone to that sort of thing i don't know how to have any confidence with even a used one what's going to prevent that from happening at some point in the future if it didn't happen yet it's like the the system involved i think is the fast board system so you would have support from fast on that but as far as getting spare parts and stuff like that i mean i'm seeing a lot of them on the market right now i mean hell even zach is flipping out just recently posted one for 7500 kind of thing you know so it's uh but my opinion it's a bit it's a bit of a roll of a dice granted yes it is a beautiful damn machine and the centaur i'm sure you saw the unboxing and stuff on that it's a beautiful damn machine so aesthetically they had it down aesthetically but just manufacturing and communications, obviously, that's where things took a downpour. Yeah, again, for a company that size with as few machines as they're making, I mean, that few number of customers, the fact that you can't get communication is,
    46:05
    you know, I've got a lot of steering machines, and my experience with steering support has been great. You know, if I have an issue, I email in, and I get a response quickly. And I've had some challenging ones, and maybe even brought in game designers to try and help as well. You know, and they make an awful lot of machines.
    46:19
    So, yeah, I'm disappointed, but I feel very fortunate, again, that I hadn't dealt with Haggis direct because I'm sure that had I been direct with them, that game would still be sitting here. I'd be waiting for a play field or there'd be something else going on with it, and I'd never see any more of that money back. Yeah, so from your perspective and what you may know about what's going on with this whole Haggis pinball thing, I mean, do you feel like there's anything that Damien could do to, I don't know, help or make things as good as he possibly can? I don't see him giving money back, but is there anything else that he could possibly do at this point in time?
    46:59
    No, I can't see it. You know, especially in today's market. I mean, we're not during COVID anymore. There's a lot of really great machines out there. The used markets come down. There's so many good choices. and you know these remakes they kind of fill a spot in a collection if you've got a lot of newer titles it's nice to have one of these in there just for a little variety but there's more and more games like that coming out even Pulp Fiction is kind of a throwback sort of retro style game and who knows there could be more coming so now some people suggested they need to get out of Australia manufactured here in the states I mean if someone were to pick it up and manufacture this design of this game here in the States.
    47:42
    It's beautiful. I'd love to have one, but not if it's bolted together in Australia, or at least not if Damien has anything to do with it. If CGC were to pick it up, I might grab one. Yeah, I think the reputation is definitely something that cannot be repaired. And it's one of those things where, yeah, I really wish someone would be able to remake these games here in the States and be able to follow through on it. I think there's a lot of things that they chose to do on building these games that they didn't have to do and still would have sold very well and made the whole manufacturing process easier. One of them, don't worry about making the playfield sledgehammer strong. Secondly, don't worry about making underneath the playfield as pretty and stuff that you did. You don't need to do that. Just make sure the game works and we won't have to worry about lifting up the playfield kind of thing. I lifted up the plate build on both a Centaur and a Fathom and it's just like aesthetically beautiful oh yeah it didn't have to make it like that and you could have saved some money kind of thing even the back of the back box had the Haggis logo and kind of mirror on it which I don't know about you but usually pinball machines are pushed up against the wall so you're never going to see that except when you unbox it looks really cool now I'll never see it again put it against the wall. Yeah.
    49:02
    And if he says the money's in escrow and it's not, it's just in a bank account and it's not in escrow, then technically he can be personally liable as well as potentially charged with fraud.
    49:28
    you