Drinks With Jack Featuring Art Leads Jeremy Packer, Steven Martin & Chuck Ernst (Part 2)

Stern Pinball·video·7m 8s·analyzed·Dec 30, 2025

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.020

TL;DR

Stern art leads discuss collaborative game production and licensing headaches with IP holders.

Summary

In this Stern Pinball 'Drinks With Jack' episode, art leads Jeremy Packer, Steven Martin, and Chuck Ernst discuss their backgrounds, the collaborative nature of modern pinball art production, and the challenges of working with IP licensers. They reveal specific licensing friction points including actor likeness approvals (Bill Murray's initial refusal on Ghostbusters) and the increasing complexity when animated displays replaced static artwork, causing more stakeholders to weigh in on creative decisions.

Key Claims

Dungeons & Dragons pinball involved 16 artists, the largest team Stern has ever assembled for a game, with artists from multiple countries including Greece and Portugal
high confidence · Jeremy Packer direct statement about D&D production scale and international team composition
Bill Murray initially refused to sign off on his likeness for Ghostbusters pinball, forcing Stern to delete him from the game until he saw backlash and changed his mind
high confidence · Chuck Ernst recounts this as a true story with Jeremy Packer confirming; multiple game versions were created with Murray covered in slime or silhouetted
Animated displays introduced significantly more licensing friction than static dot-matrix artwork, as more stakeholders began weighing in on creative decisions
high confidence · Chuck Ernst explains that transitioning from dots to displays caused 'everybody that was like an armchair animator' to have input on creative choices
Marvel licenses are relatively straightforward to work with, providing short lists of dos and don'ts, while other licensers add substantial restrictions
medium confidence · Jeremy Packer's experience on Deadpool and Marvel games; contrasts with unnamed other licensers having 'three or four extra things we can't do'
When multiple actors are involved in a licensed game, each must individually sign off on their likeness, creating coordination challenges
high confidence · Chuck Ernst explains actor approval process on games with 20+ actors, noting they 'don't like to sign off on things or anywhere remotely near the same time'

Notable Quotes

“Dungeons & Dragons had 16 artists on it. It's the biggest game we've ever done...We had a guy from Greece working on it. Another guy from Portugal. All these different artists worked on that game.”
Jeremy Packer — Demonstrates the global scale and collaborative nature of modern Stern pinball art production
“Everything you see on the screen is actually has very little to do with me and a lot with a lot of other people.”
Jeremy Packer — Emphasizes humility about individual contribution and highlights the collective effort behind visual production
“I modeled the train for AC/DC...and I CNCed it in my basement on my home CNC machine.”
Chuck Ernst — Reveals the blend of professional and personal resources used in early Stern 3D modeling work
“When everything went to the displays, suddenly you had everybody that was like an armchair animator, you know, all chiming in”
Chuck Ernst — Explains why animation in games increased licensing complexity compared to static artwork
“Bill Murray was like, 'I'm not signing off on anything.' So we deleted him from the game.”
Chuck Ernst — Concrete example of licensing friction with high-profile actors and their approval power
“We had Bill Murray like three or four versions, right, with the...Ecto-glasses on. He was covered in slime. All kinds of stuff. It was silhouetted out.”
Jeremy Packer — Shows creative workarounds developed to address actor approval challenges
“His job is a nightmare. I would not trade places with him at all.”
Chuck Ernst — References Jody Dankberg's licensing coordination role and acknowledges the difficulty of managing IP holder relationships
“We try to work through it from our end, uh, on the 2D side up front, um, early and often. Uh, so that so that by the time Chuck's team starts moving, hopefully, we've worked out a few things.”
Steven Martin — Reveals Stern's workflow strategy for managing licensing approvals across departments

Entities

Jeremy Packerperson Steven Martinperson Chuck Ernstperson Jody Dankbergperson Bill MurraypersonStern PinballcompanyDungeons & Dragons: The Tyrant's Eye

Signals

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business_signal: Different IP licensers have dramatically different approval friction levels—Marvel provides short restriction lists while unnamed licensers require three or four additional restrictions
medium · Jeremy Packer compares Marvel licensing favorably to other unnamed licensers with greater restrictions
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community_signal: Stern is producing educational content about art and design processes through 'Drinks With Jack' interview series, demonstrating commitment to community education and transparency about game development
high · Formal video interview with art leads discussing production processes, licensing, and collaborative workflows
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design_philosophy: Stern employs global distributed art teams—Dungeons & Dragons involved artists from Greece, Portugal, and other countries, indicating international collaboration for scale projects
high · Jeremy Packer: '16 artists on it...We had a guy from Greece working on it. Another guy from Portugal'
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licensing_signal: Actor approval processes create significant production friction—Bill Murray's initial refusal on Ghostbusters required deletion of his likeness until public backlash changed his position; each actor in multi-character games must individually sign off
high · Chuck Ernst and Jeremy Packer confirm Bill Murray refusal story with multiple game versions created as workarounds; explicit explanation of per-actor sign-off requirement
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personnel_signal: Stern art department includes specialists from diverse backgrounds—Jeremy Packer from 17-year Mortal Kombat tenure; Chuck Ernst with custom CNC modeling skills; Steven Martin handling broadcast graphics

Topics

Art production workflow and collaborative team structureprimaryIP licensing challenges and approval frictionprimaryActor likeness approvals and contract negotiationsprimaryEvolution from dot-matrix to animated displays in licensing complexityprimary 3D modeling and animation production at SternsecondaryPersonnel backgrounds and career transitions to pinballsecondaryDifferences between licensers in approval restrictionssecondaryStern's broadcast and streaming graphics productionmentioned

Sentiment

positive(0.72)— Tone is generally light and humorous with candid discussion of challenges. Speakers express appreciation for collaborative team environment and acknowledge difficult aspects of licensing work without frustration. Some self-deprecating humor about search histories and 'hurting cats' (related to animation work). Overall professional but informal and friendly atmosphere.

Transcript

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My background is is video games. I was fortunate enough to work on the Mortal Kombat team for 17 years, mostly making blood and guts and stuff shooting out of people. Um, my search history looks like a like a psychopath. What does it look like when I strangle somebody, but something breaks and then there's a You're slapping meat on a scanner, you know? But uh and then uh I I started at CERN in two 2015 and uh everything you everything John Youssi on the screen is actually has very little to do with me and a lot with a lot of other people. Like Dungeons of Dragons had 16 artists on it. It's the biggest game we've ever done. I don't know if you guys have seen it. Go check it out. Fine artist. Everything was hand illustrated and then animated by another group of people and also all over the world. We had a a guy from Greece working on it. Another guy from Portugal. All these different artists worked on that game. But yeah, so I kind of heard cats. That's kind of my I need to put hurting cats. You're hurting. Hurting cats. Yeah. Hurting cats is what I do in my own time, my own against her history. Yeah. Don't Don't Yeah. Bad. Chuck, actually the first time you worked for Stern, didn't weren't you on Mustang? Didn't you make the the ball or something like that? A Mustang? The very first thing I ever worked on for Stern is I modeled the uh train for AC/DC. Oh wow. And I still No residuals. The prototype is still missing. Yeah. Oh, it was an actual 3D sculpt that you're saying. Yeah, it was a 3D sculpt for the screen and I CNCed it in my basement on my home CNC machine. I I feel bad always being standing up here. I feel like a fraud because there's so many people that do all of the stuff John Youssi on the screen. I did it all. It was all me. But one of the cool things about what we do, at least my team gets to do, is we get to actually make the toys on the playfield. We get to do the graphics on the screen. Um, we do some promotional videos. Um, it's kind of a it's everybody on the team is a jack of all trades. So, it's it's probably the most interesting job you could ever have. Yeah. And like like you said, jack of all trades. Like Stephen Martin on top of what he does also creates like our overlays for the stern streams that we do when we're doing broadcast like vault games and stuff. The The graphics for the we call it Jack streaming graphics. That's actually what it's called. Heck yeah. Well, I I wanted to talk to you guys specifically about um working on games and like the the IP and the licensing and like the freedoms and the lack thereof that come with working on that. And uh I will open the floor to whoever wants to start talking about licensing. I'll start. Uh Chuck, what what do you think? I kid. I kid. Uh no, no, you know, um obviously I think in my side of it, uh with with the 2D art of the cabinets, the back glasses, things like that, things that are static, um it's a little easier, uh to find the limitations and figure out how to work with licensers. Um, not every license is created equal. Um, uh, and and so it's one of those things where, you know, we try to work through it from our end, uh, on the 2D side up front, um, early and often. Uh, so that so that by the time Chuck's Chuck's team starts moving, hopefully, we've worked out a few things. It's not going to help him that much because he's going to have way more headaches, but that's why he has a team of 10,000 people working with him. Would you say like a style guy is easier to work with on your end versus maybe what's happening here? Um, yeah. Yes and no. So, so I can say from my own personal experience on the games I've worked on like Deadpool, all the Marvel games in particular, uh, they literally because they're a creative force that is, you know, they make how many products or whatever. I like to tell them how to do their job. Honestly, they were kind of easy. Like they were kind of like, okay, just make sure that this you don't do this, you don't do that. And And a very short list. Other licensers, we're we're naming names. They might they might have three or four extra things we can't do. And with that, it's Chuck's turn. So really early on when everything was dots, it was a lot easier for my department to get stuff pushed through the the um pushed through the uh licensing sphincter. The The licensing portal. Meat grinder. That's a technical term. That's a technical term. The The brown portal. Yeah. the Brown Portal and uh and then and then when everything went to the displays, suddenly you had everybody that was like an armchair animator, you know, all chiming in and going, you know what I would do? So, it was it and a shout out to Jody. Uh I I like to ri I like to ri the Jod Dankberg, but his his job is a is a nightmare. I would I would not trade places with them at all. Here's an example of a licensing nightmare. Um, when you're dealing with a license that has actors in it, they all get to sign off on their likeness. And if you have 20 actors in the game, 20 actors are on the back, they all get to sign off on it. And sometimes actors don't like to sign off on things or or anywhere remotely near the same time. Right. Right. So in the case one of the earliest examples of this and and the first time I met Jeremy was on the on the Ghostbusters and Bill Murray was like I'm not signing off on anything. So we deleted him from the game. That is that is true. A true story. Yeah. And then when he saw the backlash didn't have him on it, he went fine. And then then he signed off on it. Actually, we had Bill Murray like three or four versions, right, with the Yeah. Ecto glasses glasses on. He was covered in slime. All kinds of stuff. It was silhouetted out. It was pretty bad. Yeah. So, but I mean it was it was it was one of those things where like the game has to ship when it ships. If you want to be involved in this, that's great. Yeah. Otherwise, yeah. How many more pinball machines are we going to sell?