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Episode 208: Bowen Kerins on Pinburgh, Australia, Alice Cooper and more

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·45m 8s·analyzed·Jul 18, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Bowen Kerins on Pinburgh growth, women in pinball, and community responsibility

Summary

Bowen Kerins discusses Pinburgh logistics (1,000 players, 87 game groups), Women in Pinball Tournament (WIPT) doubling to 128 players, tournament fairness issues (sandbagging, division placement), and broader community topics including women's safety in pinball, social media responsibility, and emerging concerns about online gambling on pinball competitions.

Key Claims

  • WIPT (Women in Pinball Tournament) is doubling in size to 128 players

    high confidence · Bowen states this directly in discussion of Pinburgh preparation

  • Pinburgh will use all 140,000 square feet of the David L. Lawrence Convention Center again this year

    high confidence · Jeff confirms this, Bowen confirms same space as last year

  • There have been multiple instances at Pinburgh where male players assume female players don't know how to play and offer unsolicited basic instructions

    high confidence · Bowen provides direct example from Pinburgh involving a female player who owned the machine at home

  • A fantasy Pinberg betting pool two years ago negatively affected players who received no votes or poor odds, causing anxiety and worse performance

    high confidence · Bowen states he heard from more than one person affected by this

  • Pinburgh top 100 restriction for A division placement was previously top 50 last year

    high confidence · Bowen confirms the change; Jeff notes he believes only one or two undeserving players made it at top 50

  • Tiebreaker rule using previous round record rather than tiebreak games saves over an hour plus per tournament

    high confidence · Bowen explains the rule rationale directly

  • Gambling on pinball has legal risks given pinball's historical ban in U.S. cities due to gambling associations

    high confidence · Bowen expresses strong concern about re-litigation risk

Notable Quotes

  • “We've had multiple instances where a male player will be in a group with three men and one woman, and that player will then make the assumption that a female player doesn't know anything about these games or what she's doing.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~26:45 — Concrete example of sexism in tournament play that Bowen uses to justify women-specific events

  • “Is this a community for dudes or is this a community for everybody? And not everyone agrees with the answer to that question.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~33:15 — Core statement of pinball community identity and inclusivity tension

  • “I don't want somebody pulling me aside saying, hey, buddy, tank, and I'll give you $1,000. Put $100 on you. I'm going to lose because you're losing them.”

    Jeff Teolis @ ~47:30 — Personal anecdote expressing discomfort with match fixing incentives from gambling

  • “The fact that we've come from an old past where gambling caused pinball to be made illegal in most U.S. cities, and now we're gambling on pinball again. I just don't understand why that's worth it.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~50:00 — Historical context concern about regulatory risk from gambling re-emergence

  • “Many times when I'm completely down in the dumps, pinball saved me. There's just this thing you can quiet your brain down and focus on the game and just take away whatever other pain is happening.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~57:00 — Personal testimony on mental health and pinball's therapeutic value

  • “I just want to be honest. And if somehow that can help someone else get through their day or to recognize that the way we portray ourselves on social media as our best lives, living every day to the maximum, not really like that.”

    Bowen Kerins @ ~58:00 — Statement on authenticity and vulnerability in social media as community service

Entities

Bowen KerinspersonJeff TeolispersonPinburgheventWIPT (Women in Pinball Tournament)eventDoug PolkapersonEitan GoldmanpersonElizabeth CromwellpersonKeith ElwinpersonKate MartinpersonEmily May

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Emergence of online gambling/betting platforms (MyBookie) and fantasy betting on pinball tournaments creating legal and ethical risks similar to historical pinball gambling bans

    high · Bowen expresses strong concern: 'we've come from an old past where gambling caused pinball to be made illegal...and now we're gambling on pinball again'

  • ?

    community_signal: Fantasy Pinberg betting pool from approximately 2 years ago caused measurable negative psychological impact on players with low vote counts or poor odds, affecting tournament performance

    high · Bowen: 'I heard that from more than one person' describing anxiety and performance degradation from seeing poor odds posted

  • ?

    community_signal: Bowen Kerins serving as active voice for women's safety, mental health awareness, and inclusive community standards, with plans to discuss gambling with MyBookie representative

    high · Jeff notes Bowen 'picks up causes' on social media; Bowen confirms willingness to hear all perspectives including gambling proponents

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Systemic sexism incidents at Pinburgh tournaments where male players assume female players lack knowledge; female players responding by improving and 'kicking ass' rather than leaving

    high · Bowen provides concrete example: 'male player will be in a group with three men and one woman, and that player will then make the assumption that a female player doesn't know anything' and notes female player 'kicked all their asses'

  • ?

    community_signal: Multiple women's divisions at major tournaments (WIPT, ReplayFX women's event) creating scheduling conflicts where women must choose between main event and playoffs participation

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.136

0:00
it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teals you can find our group on facebook we're also on twitter at pinball profile emails pinball profile at gmail.com and please subscribe on your favorite podcatcher it's that time of year again we're getting ready for pinberg and replay fx and joining us one of the assistant tds you know i'm bowen karens hey bowen how are you Great. How are you, Jeff? I'm good. You've been traveling quite a bit lately. I saw you recently just outside of Boston at Pintastic. That was fun, and playing you in the, I guess, semifinals, if you will, or the, I guess, third place, the bronze match, they would call it. The backup team.
0:45
It was good to see you there, and I know right now you're in Salt Lake City. A lot of travel miles for you, and we'll get to that as you head to Pittsburgh and then soon to Australia, but first up, it's Pinburg, and I'm so excited. 1,000 players, just the growth. Every single year, it gets better and better, and the growth of WIPT as well. Yeah, it's very exciting, especially with WIPT. WIPT is doubling in size to 128 players, and it's going to be an outstanding event on Sunday. We're just finalizing the game groups and getting everything organized for Pinnberg. I still have a list. We've got 87 game groups. That's not okay. It was 140,000 square feet last year. I think you used all of the David L. Lawrence Convention Center, so it'll be the same this year, too, with the 1,000 players. Yeah, so you're going to squeeze a few more in so that they can accommodate the 1,000 players, but logistically it's been worked out. In fact, I was just in Pittsburgh at the new PAPA facility, if you will, or storage place, whatever you want to call it, and I did a fight club. So they've been working very, very hard in Pittsburgh to get things ready. Yeah, I think that's one of the aspects that's hard to picture when you think about the logistics of this event. Doug Polka, the lead tournament director for Pinnberg, as well as the others, Eitan Goldman, Elizabeth Cromwell doing so much work with Tech. So these little Fight Club tournaments that happen in Pittsburgh are opportunities for us to test the Pinnberg games before they go live so the games are less likely to break down. And we also time the machines. So you get a more clear picture of how to put four games together and keep them within a specific time frame so the event can continue running. Really interesting logistics. I personally love that side of creating the events and trying to make sure it runs on time and with as little difficulty as possible for most players. I remember you telling me a couple years ago as we were preparing for Pinberg that that is probably not your biggest fear but biggest concern and something that you really don't even have to worry about is the timing of each group so that there's no waiting. And in fact, Bowen, I've got to tell you, I like the rule that was put in last year that said all tiebreakers will be broken based on your record the previous round. Even though that cost me a playoff spot as I was tied, I still think it's a great rule, and I use it in tournaments as well. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, but yeah, we think it was the best choice. Rather than take another hour plus to run tiebreak games, when there really are some tiebreakers visible among the play, It's a way of representing the strength of schedule of a player also, because if someone was ahead of you after nine rounds, that means that they're probably going to have to face more difficult opponents overall, including in round 10. Well, I like it just because it was transparent. I mean, we knew what the rules were going in. It wasn't that it was just sprung on us, so I have no one to blame but myself for poor play in the nine rounds. I'm being serious. So, I mean, yeah, I would have liked to make the playoffs, but it's, hey, you know what? Play better. Yeah, this is also a way of ensuring, minorly, that it's always been a dumb issue at Pinnberg where players who are playing really well will worry that they're playing too well. And even though the games themselves are giving them, like, hey, you're doing great, keep going. Sure, you're going to make A-division, but you can then play really well in A-division. You're kicking butt. But there's always been a couple of incidents of people not really respecting that and then trying to change the way they play later around. I don't understand it myself, but I can see how people would choose that. Well, I think what we're wrong about saying is sandbagging, so to speak. And I personally, I'm very lucky, very, very fortunate that I am A, restricted this year, being top 100. I love it. Do I think I've earned it? Probably not based on the last two Pinbergs. I played in B both times, but I do like the comfort of knowing, okay, day one is not as stressful. I'll be in A and I can battle it out. So, you know, hopefully I earn it because it would stink for someone like myself to be pushed up to A when I really didn't deserve it. But the great thing about what you've done and the whole Papa group, you've kind of got it to a good number. Like last year it was top 50 and I think I don't even know if one or two got through that shouldn't have been there. So it's a nice fine balance. But again, you don't want to see Keith Elwin playing in the Cs. Let's just put it that way. It's a really difficult issue in the logistics of the event, when we always get to hear about it, because there is no right answer to this question. The only actual right answer would be for me to tell you that if you didn't make it into A on day one, that you would be eliminated. And we're never going to do that. Well, hopefully not anyway. Definitely not this year. I don't think there are any plans of doing any such thing. But that would be the only fair way of ensuring the right people get into the right divisions. So bringing you or Keith Elwin or Sharp and pushing them into A so that they don't win B, I think it's the right thing to do, and it always has been. It's always been part of this event, even from the first year, even when we only have 170 players. I love that you just used myself and Keith Elwin in the same sentence, but then you had to throw Josh in there, and you ruined the whole thing. Thanks very much, Bowen. You're welcome. Thanks, Mark. You know what? You're talking about, though, the perfect tournament. And for a lot of people, Pinberg is it. It is difficult, whether it's rules, whether it's the number of players, the machines, everything you add into any tournament, especially one of this size, to make everyone happy. It is very, very difficult to do for any tournament. Logistics, you name it. There are so many different categories. I think Pinberg gets it, but you have been to so many different tournaments where we're seeing, oh, you know, I wish it could have been done this way. And I think of right now the difficulty a lot of tournaments are having is where do we find the time to slot in if we have a main and we have a classics and a women's so that women don't have to choose, am I going to do main or am I going to do women's? In other words, it's unfortunate, and we've seen tournaments recently where they have to pick sides, and it would be nice if they could play in all of them. Yeah, a great example of this is Emily May from the Fantastic Tournament. Emily won the Silver Bell Brawl, the first ever women's event at Contest. She had 40-plus players. Great. But when she got back to the main event, she had gone from being in the top 10 to being out of contention for the top 24 for finals. And you're absolutely right. This is a very hard problem for events to manage because it's another one where there just is no right answer. A lot of events have limited time for everything, and you basically have to block out the time for this event for the women. And what else do you do? I don't know. In the case of Pinberg, Pinberg and WIPs are two separate tournaments on separate days, so we don't actually have to make that distinction. We can just run them on the different days we have. That's a luxury that ReplayFX has as a four-day event. Yes and no. If women want to play in the Intergalactic, the playoffs is also at the same time, so there is, unless that's changed. You're absolutely right. that does provide a context. And it sucks. There are definitely women who are plenty capable of making the Intergalactic Final. And then what? Do we have them bounce back and forth between two events and then simultaneously? Do they have to pick one? Pretty much what it is right now. And it's not cool. But I wish I knew a better solution other than to isolate the timing of each event so nothing overlaps, which we have seen some events do. And it's generally worked, but it requires that much more effort and attention. See, now Bowen, probably one of the smartest math minds I know in speaking to you right now, and certainly with your tournament expertise. And when you say, I don't really know the solution, because it's not that you don't care, because you definitely care about making sure that these events are happening and that everyone's having a good time at these events. But again, the logistics. If anybody is listening to Pinball Profile has some great suggestions, I would love to hear them. I know I'd pass them along to Bowen. He would love to hear them because the whipped event's huge, 128. I mean, I remember talking to Kate Martin last year, and she was worried about, I hope it sells out. Sells out? Are you kidding? And that's how big this tournament is, so I'm looking forward to that and so many other things. And, you know, I touched upon you are the kind of person that a lot of people reach out to. You are certainly a huge figure in pinball. If there was a Mount Rushmore of greatest pinball players, Bowen, I'd put you on there, and I don't think too many people would argue that. but also two from... Come on, I know you're being modest, but take the flattery because it's well-earned. You are always there to help people. I'll give you a personal example. We were playing in Pintastic in the third-place round. I was happy to make the final four. The bad news is I'm about to play Bowen for third place, but not the bad news, because I really enjoy playing against you. In fact, a couple of years ago, I went to the Sturm Pro Circuit where I knew I had to play yourself, Keith Elwin, and Trent Ogdenstein. My friends were saying, why are you going? You're going to get smoked. I'm like, why wouldn't I go? That is going to be a great experience. I can only do better. I'm expected to do nothing. So that first game of Meteor, I played the three of you. I beat you and Keith and I will hold that high for the rest of my life. I've never won since, but still, you know what I mean? Like it was, it was a fun experience. So here we are playing at Pintastic and we're playing a game. You smoked me. I think you got the grand champ on X-Files and I got to pick the next game. I said, you know what? Let's play a game I've played maybe five times in my life, full throttle. And this is Bowen Cairns. He said to me, well, do you want to know how to play it? So I'm about to play him for a competition for money and all that other stuff, you know, and he's telling me how to play that. That's the Bowen I know. Oh, thanks. I appreciate you knocking me out of the circuit that year, too, man. Nice job. I did, yeah.
person
Kristen Gregoryperson
David (MyBookie)person
Jessica (Pinball Podcast)person
Replay FXevent
Pintasticevent
PAPAorganization
Stern Pro Circuitevent
Fantastic Tournamentevent
David L. Lawrence Convention Centervenue
Pinball Profilemedia

high · Jeff and Bowen discuss Emily May example where women's event timing conflicts with main event progression

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball community increasingly open about mental health struggles, with pinball serving as therapeutic escape; social media enabling peer support and normalization

    high · Bowen and Jeff both describe pinball as mental health tool; Jeff mentions Jessica podcast episode on anxiety; Bowen posts about difficult days seeking support

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinburgh reaching 1,000 players with 87 game groups; WIPT doubling to 128 players represents significant growth in women's tournament participation

    high · Bowen states directly: 'WIPT is doubling in size to 128 players' and confirms 1,000 total players with 87 game groups

  • ?

    community_signal: Bowen Kerins playing mentor/educator role in pinball community, leveraging social media presence to influence norms around inclusivity, mental health transparency, and ethical concerns

    high · Multiple anecdotes of Bowen privately correcting Jeff, publicly discussing mental health, advocating for women players, and engaging thoughtfully with controversial topics

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Gradual community evolution toward inclusivity and away from sexist language/imagery, though with resistance from some community members; generational/educational approach showing results

    high · Bowen describes learning curve on offensive language, Jeff's story about Bowen's private correction about shooter girls, both noting people can evolve if approached non-judgmentally

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Pinburgh implementing tiebreaker rule based on previous round record to avoid lengthy tiebreak games, with top 100 WPPR restriction for A-division to minimize sandbagging

    high · Bowen confirms rule saves '1+ hour' per tournament and explains sandbagging prevention rationale

    • 10:43
    But... Down on Galaxy in that very last game, I definitely deserved the elimination, for sure. You beat me twice there. Thanks. But again, the point is you're there to help, in this case me, but I see it a lot, especially on social media, picking up causes where kind of other people, myself included, I don't really want to touch that topic. You know what I mean? No, I mean, listen, at work we have a social media policy, believe it or not, because I'm an on-air personality. I know not to talk about politics talk about religion talk about abortion Those are kind of don topics And then you know certainly in this Me Too movement and as we talk about women events and the need to have a safe place you're there to pick up that mantle quite a bit. And I'm asking, is it difficult? Because I'm sure you get a ton of support, but then you've got to take the crap from other people too. I think it's a lot less difficult than it is for the women who are most directly affected by the things that are happening around them, whether it be comments people make about players. So to give you a direct example from Tinburg, we've had multiple instances where a male player will be in a group with three men and one woman, and that player will then make the assumption that a female player doesn't know anything about these games or what she's doing. The male player has offered to tell the female player how to start a four-player game, or will describe the very basics of the rules of a game that person wouldn't then say the same thing to any of the men that they're around. And this is sexism. This is not okay when you're going to treat the other players as professionals. Now, in that case, what was neat is that the female player owned that machine at home, told the male player this, and then proceeded to kick all their asses.
    12:30
    But this is the type of thing that happens where then, if something had happened to me the first time I ever went to an event, I would be much less likely to ever want to come back. And so my hat's off to all those players who are being put down this way and their reaction, no, I'm not getting out of here. I'm coming back, and I'm going to get better, and I'm going to beat you. And we see more female players at Tinberg every year. Whips with Kate and the other female TDs who are entirely responsible for building whips, they are driving the number of female players in Tinberg way up, and it's wonderful. and I hope that we can achieve some sort of balance long term but if and I mean being a voice sure I'm happy to I'm very happy to make this possible and I am not the best voice and I'm sure I screw things up a few times and people come down on me going like who are you to say this like well I'm just saying I don't know It's never going to be perfect, and I just want to be able to promote the things I believe in and the people I believe in. I've learned a lot in five short years of competitive pinball or this IFBA and this fun hobby that we're in. You've helped me out in specific examples. I'll get to one in a second, but I remember the first time I heard of the women's event. I thought, oh, that's neat, and I didn't understand why there was a need to. because fortunately, knock on wood, in the surroundings I'm in, I have not seen anybody act inappropriately to a woman or anybody for that matter. So very, very fortunate. But I hear so many of these stories, and now I get it. I'm like, yeah, that's not right in pinball. It's not needed in pinball. Everyone should have a safe place, everybody. And if this is a way to do that, then all power to it, and I support it completely. So I'll give you an example of being in the public eye, and I guess now through Pinball Profile, I'm one of those people. And you pointed this out to me a few years ago, in fact. I was at a bar where there's pinball machines. It was a big event, and there were shooter girls coming around offering everybody. Maybe you remember this. I remember this. Okay. There were free shooters given to everybody. Of course I took one. And as they asked every single person, can we get a picture? Because I think they posted on social media, like, look at all these people we've got drinking our drink kind of thing, right? So I took that picture and sent it to my wife as a joke and said, hey, look at the fans of Pinball Profile. She laughed. And then, stupid me, I posted on Pinball Profile. And you private messaged me, and I appreciate you doing that, said, hey, just to let you know, you're in the public eye now. And that might be offensive to some people. It's not appropriate. It's not the image we're going for. I immediately took it down, and I thank you for doing that. And listen, I don't even have to admit that. I'm admitting it on air right now because it was ignorance. To me, it wasn't being sexist, but I get that it came across that way. So I thank you for that. That's one of the things about this I think is important, that we have to believe that people who are doing things incorrectly, they're more likely to be doing it because of just either ignorance or just doing things the way they have been. And people evolve and get better. And if we can believe that people evolve, we can continue to grow. I remember as a college student being on the forum directing a spinball, and there was a phrase people would use when they wanted to shoot the spinner a whole lot of times, and it is a word for sexual assault. And I used this word in my post because it was what everyone else was saying, and I did not think at all about why I was using that word or what it meant in that context, and it was rude, and I don't anymore. But it was ignorant. It was absolutely ignorant, and it was inappropriate. Then sometimes we get this pushback where if someone uses it and I say, hey, you know, maybe something else, like exploits, you get these people who dig in and go like, no, this is where I draw the line. I draw the line at this word. Really, this is what you want to spend your time arguing about on the Internet?
    16:39
    Unfortunately, this happens regularly. And at some level, it becomes about who is this community for? Is this a community for dudes or is this a community for everybody? And not everyone agrees with the answer to that question. Well, I've learned that you can't please everybody and take a look at something I don't openly discuss, but take a look at politics and see how divided people are. So unfortunately, there are going to be people on your side, people on the other side, and I don't even know which one's right or wrong in different examples, not this one. It's just that there are great difference of opinions in a lot of things. And I do thank you for pointing that out to me. That's years ago, Bowen. And you could have done what a lot of people do in social media. And they put people in a box. They don't know a person. They say they are that person because of this one thing. And that is my number one resentment that people do that. And you didn't do that. I probably do that to some people and I shouldn't. But you didn't to me. Okay, if you do do it to other people, I know you very well. I'm sure saying the word sorry or oh, I was wrong is not something that's impossible to do, right? No, I'm being serious. I make mistakes all the time. This question seems to remind me of an octopus I saw recently. I'm not really sure. Listen, I wasn't going to bring that up. You just brought that up. Okay, this is a great example. This is a great example. And I talked to somebody we both respect very much in Kristen Gregory about this. I said, you know, I've got this situation where I've got friends on both sides, and they really don't like each other right now. I feel really awkward. I want to like everybody, and I do like these people, and they don't like each other at this point. And I just think in this perfect world, wouldn't it be great if we could come to a resolution, a discussion and and make things better as opposed to again maybe putting that person in the box and they are this type of person yeah i do think that when one of those people chooses to say if you are offended by this and you can get the f out right now uh that that person is that person is making a choice to dig in and you just say that okay fine this is what you believe and this is more important than these other beliefs. And, oh, well, that's who you are, I guess. And maybe they won't be that way forever. I hope that. I hope for that. At that point, you just kind of say, okay, that's it. That's all I can, that's all I got. Now, that being said, will you open up conversation to try to work things out in the future, or are you just done with that person? I don't know. I don't even know that person. See, right there. That, to me, I have difficulty not liking somebody I don't know. That's just me. And as I get older, I want peace with everyone. It's not always possible sometimes. You just, like you say, you shake your hand. Okay, you know what? Best of luck to you. You go your way. I go my way. But that example you're giving, and I sat down with Kristen and I said, boy, you know, when I first saw that artwork, I loved the science fiction of it. I didn't see what has been pointed out. I never saw that. I said, you know, I really thought that was pretty cool. I didn't see that, but I have heard from other people, many people, in fact, that see both sides of it. And so I'm in the middle. I'm like, God, where do I stand on this thing? Because I really don't know what to do. I mean, I respect both sides. Is that possible? Is that sitting on the fence? That is possible. I guess I, too, appreciate a good sci-fi thing. And I think, as Kristen said, this is as much about agency as anything else. It's like someone can look sexy, and to say that it's just about sexiness is not really the issue there. Someone anonymously built a new version of that artwork that showed the woman firing at the monster and a couple of other minor changes. It was basically the same artwork, but it was fine because the woman wasn't just captured and stuff. I don't know. Again, this is all subject to interpretation. Well, that's a good thing.
    21:18
    thorough situation all around. I didn't have to do it. I did not want to get into this, because, you know what I mean? Listen, I also know that... It was a bad joke. No, no. I know the artist also didn't take a fee to come to that event because of the flack. And the person's also not here to defend themselves. So, you know, I...
    21:41
    How do I wrap that one up nicely in a box? Let's pretend this never happened. No, because it's good content, Bowen. It's good content.
    21:52
    That's why I do best, to help troubles. No. Well, Bowen, that is an example of you posting on social media that, how many comments were on that thread? So many different ones, and you saw both sides of it too, right? And it's one of those, I don't know how you say one is right, one is wrong, or are both right, are both wrong. Yeah, one of the things I try to do, at least on my personal social media, is if people want to have a reasonable discussion and they're not calling people out, name-calling or making insults, then it's going to be listened to. It going to be if not censored and everything on that post has full worldwide public visibility so anyone can add what they want to say So recently I been in some discussions with people about the online gambling on Pinball which I have a pretty strong negative opinion of, but others have a very strong positive opinion of. And it's been interesting listening to those opinions, and they all have some basis in why someone would like it or dislike it. And I don't think there's going to be a resolution to that, to say that someone is right, someone is wrong. But I still feel strongly about my opinion on it in that manner. And I can respect the opinions that others are expressing. That's a good point. You're not saying it's wrong. You're not saying it's wrong for them or it's wrong that you're making this opinion. You're just offering your opinion and saying, here's what I have a problem with, and here's how some people can be devalued. But you've actually had people contact you and say, this really bothers me. So it's not just you. It's other people using you as a sounding board, if you will, because you do have a voice. So, again, there's another example of people on both sides, and you wonder who's right, who's wrong. I know when it first came out, I was like, oh, really? And then I saw my name on it. And I'm like, oh, I'm not comfortable with this at all because, you know, I don't want somebody pulling me aside saying, hey, buddy, tank, and I'll give you $1,000.
    23:49
    Put $100 on you. I'm going to lose because you're losing them. Great. So we're both losing money today. It was awkward, but I guess we've seen people say, if we're going in the sporting direction, I guess this is common and prop bets and all those other kind of things too. But the fantasy one too was the one that I think you were talking about where there is no money value, but there's value in people. And that was the concern, correct? Yeah. Yeah, the first time I heard people's opinions on this was about two years ago. There was a fantasy Pinberg betting pool from players from a certain city where everybody could vote for some number of them at different odds. And the players who were getting no votes, players who had poorer odds than expected to, it just became a very negative experience for some people. And I was actually kind of surprised by that initially because, They were like, oh, why wouldn't we care about that at all? But then you hear the details, like, this really affected me. I feel like I played worse because I looked at that data, and no one was supporting me, and it made me feel uncomfortable. It was eye-opening to me because I did not expect to hear those opinions. I heard that from more than one person. And now with the book and stuff, there's not much I can do about it to remove my own name from the list or anything like that. But like you said, it's a little weird to see that. Never mind the legality of it. There's definitely some big questions about the legality to me, and that is my major issue with it. The fact that we've come from an old past where gambling caused pinball to be made illegal in most U.S. cities, and now we're gambling on pinball again. I just don't understand why that's worth it. The risk is to have someone come down on us again. Bowen, I'm actually going to be talking to David from MyBookie later this week. If you had one question to ask him, what would it be? What states are you legal in? That was actually on my list. I've already got that. If you've got a different question, that's a freebie. It was already on my list, actually.
    25:58
    Who sets the odds? Okay, that's a good one. Who sets the odds? I'll ask David. As you know, this pinball profile, I try to cover the gamut of everything, right? and I've done some shows where people are like, how dare you get that person on or how dare you talk about that. I'm like, well, it's all kind of part of pinball. I have absolutely no problem with you bringing on David from my bookie. It's certainly going to be an interesting conversation. Like I said, I want to hear the opinions of everyone on this matter because they can change my own opinion. At least they can understand where everyone is coming from. and that's the thing, like you said, about the black and whiteness of political debates, where if I don't have respect and understanding of the other opinions, then I'm not really entitled to have my own opinion on it, honestly. Well, and I remember a couple of years ago, you were on the Pinball Podcast with Jeff and Jessica, and I reached out to Jessica, who I really don't know at all. I've met her once, twice, but I heard that pinball podcast, and she was talking about anxiety and mental health issues. And I wrote her a note, just said, I thought that was a fantastic, brave episode to do, to be so open about that in a topic that a lot of people kind of keep to themselves. And you've been quite open about that as well, too, that I've seen posts where like, hey, having a rough day, send me some positive thoughts, something to that effect. And I'm glad you do that because if somebody sends you something and that's enough to, okay, get you through the day, then you did the right thing. The thing about social media is it scares the hell out of me sometimes because there's so much toxicity on it. And there's a lot of what I call drive-by shooters where people take shots that, especially on the Twitter and Pinside and things like that, where you don't have to put your name to it. But you use social media in this example of maybe a call for help or a reach out. And just like that Jessica episode and what she did and you doing that, is social media more of a good thing for you than the crap that you have to deal with on the other side? That's a good question. I have no idea whether social media has been a positive influence on my life or not. I also agree with you outright that both Jeff and Jessica have been very, outspoken isn't the right word, but just honest and truthful about their own experiences with depression and anxiety. I remember reading a post by Jeff about how pinball saved him from depression, and it really resonated with my own life. Many times when I'm completely down in the dumps, pinball saved me. There's just this thing you can quiet your brain down and focus on the game and just take away whatever other pain is happening. I don't know how many people have started playing pinball because of that, but it was one of my reasons for really getting deep into pinball in the first place. So if I post to say I'm feeling sad, I just want to be honest. And if somehow that can help someone else get through their day or to recognize that the way we portray ourselves on social media as our best lives, living every day to the maximum, not really like that. So in that sense, I think that social media can be a really big positive, and I can't imagine how many people, how many friends I would or wouldn't have without it. I just feel like I have so many good influences in my life because of the friends I've made through Pinwall. Oh, that's a great answer. I have to agree with you 100% there. And, yes, people reach out to you all the time because they see your videos, they see you as such a great player, and as someone who cares about so many different people and wanting people to have fun playing pinball. If you're not having fun playing pinball and that's why you got into it, then what the hell are we doing this for? And if someone is feeling down, depressed, they feel like they don't have anybody to talk to, I'm here. I'm there on Facebook. Just send me a note and you want to talk about something and I'll be one of the people who can help you out. There's always so many people willing to help who helped me when I was in my worst places. and I feel like if I can pass the word in a small way, I want to. I will extend that offer too because when we're in a good space and we can help other people out, that's a great thing too, and we've all been down in the dumps and looking like, how are we ever going to get out of this? But in your case, in my case, in other people's cases, you do get out of it, and you just have to remind people that, you know, this is, yeah, it's a bad day, this and that has happened, but it's not always going to be like that, and having a friendly voice to talk to is, that's all you need, right? No one wants to be alone in this world. Yeah, unless you're playing pinball, then you really are alone. You want to be off the ground, right? Well, you know, you talk about all the people that you've met on social media. You're going to meet a lot more of those quote-unquote friends on Facebook because of who you are, you've been invited to go to Brisbane Masters, which is a massive event. I know you're looking forward to that. You've got to get the hell out of Pittsburgh as soon as Pinberg's done because you're off to this massive event. How much fun is that going to be? I'm just honored, Jimmy Nails and the crew down there are putting together something really special. There was a video of their introduction of a media day before it's happening, and there's horses and cows and motorcycles jumping and high-growth walking and pinball machines everywhere. with a video of Emily Cosson, John's daughter, playing, I think it was a Twilight Zone, with just a bunch of cows just right nearby. I watched it.
    31:47
    And it's going to be a hoot. I've never been anywhere near Australia, and I'm honored to be invited by them. I hope that I can make it worth their while and their pain for me to go out there is crazy. I get a free trip to Australia so I can play pinball. What is this? life. No, I think it'll be covered easily because of the joy you'll be bringing people and people getting a chance to finally meet you that maybe never get to come to North America. You're going to be open to all that. That's going to be so much fun. I can't believe how many events they're doing and it's just a whopper fest if you're into that for IFBA. I won't be able to make it down for the first weekend but I will be here for the main event and a couple of others. I'm really just there for the circuit points. That's my plan. I don't know about anything else that's coming. I'm mainly just there to teach and support and be part of this amazing event. And then hopefully I'll get to go back again someday. Do you see this, and they just had one in Germany too, Pinball Olympics, where it was multiple days. Do you see this being something that we're going to see in North America too? I think it's 10 days of pinball. I think it was more than seven, maybe it was 10, of Pinball Olympics. I mean, Pinnberg's great. It's 1,000 people. It's so much fun. It's like day camp for pinball. It's one event. It's one event with also Whipped, with also Intergalactic, but we're talking 10 events. It's kind of nuts. Like, how much before you say, no, I can't do it anymore? But I guess if you're going to do each one of those events for three or four hours, you're clocking in and out at the same time as Spenberg anyway. But I've never played in the flip frenzy, and I've never played in some of these other formats, so it's going to be very exciting for that purpose. And then with 10 or 12 different events going on, you can pick your battles and go, like, I really like Match Play, so I'm just going to play Match Play 20. The variety of events and the number of events increasing is super. You're going to love the Flip Frenzy. I just played one on the weekend. I think it is my favorite format now because it Match Play but it just go go go go go I look forward to intimidating my opponents into resigning on ball one that works well you know what you are not allowed to pre that you play one ball but if bowen's crushing it and he's already got the gc on ball one you can say you know what i'm giving you this game so that i think is the legality as it was told to me by josh so it's it's uh it's a lot of fun you'll enjoy it too and again all these different formats i think you know the first time you ever came on Pinball Profile was like the day after, the morning after 24 Hour Sanctum. You were so bag-tired too.
    34:27
    I can't imagine 10 days of pinball how exhausted you would be after something like Brisbane Masters. We're going to find out. We're going to find out soon. You're now back in the IFPA. The last time you were on this show you had talked about the concern of charity events and free events having to fork over the dollar. I haven't asked you why you're back in IFPA. I'm back in IFPA because IFPA took over the circuit and I really like playing the circuit format. It's a great tournament and a summary of all of your sports and efforts and basically at this point if I'm not in the rankings then I can't play it. So I'm back in the rankings.
    35:08
    I still feel the same way. I think that charity events and free events should not have to pay those fees since those fees are not being paid by people in Europe or anywhere outside of America and Canada. And it doesn't make sense to me, but it appears that that matter is settled, that everybody just agrees to go with it, and that's what's happening. You feel your hand was forced a little bit in that sense, that it now became the Stern Pro Circuit? I don't know. I mean, I guess I could still just say, screw it. They dropped out, but it wasn't really worth it. Honestly, I kept getting questions from people like, are you staying? Are you going? It was exhausting and also probably just not the right thing to try to stand for in the first place because it's not my system. If I want to run my own system, then I will. But if the IFPA can do what they choose to, then I, as I've said before, they do a ton of work for very little gain, and they're doing it because they love it. So they're in charge. They get to make those decisions. I probably should have been more respectful in the way I treated that because a lot of people thought I just didn't, that there was some kind of personal beef involved. There was never. And I just want to express my gratitude to them for the amount of work and effort they put forth in building things and promoting people. I never got that you were being disrespectful. I didn't think that was the case at all. I thought, no, that shocks the heck out of me that you just said that because you made it very clear, the free events, the charity events. In fact, that was the same thing I said to Josh on April 1st when it came out too. I'm like, even free events? I hadn't thought of the charity ones, but oh, yeah, wait a minute. And then he pointed out that some of the Papa circuit events are, in fact, charity events. So I'm like, okay, I guess then, but what about free events? And he said, well, you don't have to do IFPA. And I'm like, okay. But I kind of had some of the same thoughts you did too. and I didn't think your thoughts or me thinking that was disrespectful. Thanks. But I do know one thing that makes you happy. It's what you're doing with Spooky Pinball. I thought you were going to say Press Your Lock is back on TV. I have that on my list. It's the next thing on my list. You jumped the gun. All right, let's go to Press Your Lock. I saw you in the audience there. The studio looks good. Greatest game ever, right? Press Your Lock is my favorite TV show. Yeah. Absolutely. I used to watch it all the time as a kid. And when they decided they were going to make more, I'm like, I'm going. I don't care. I'm going. I'm going to sit in the audience. I'm going to watch this show, and it's going to be awesome. And it was. It was so worth it. Yeah, it's getting a lot of hype for sure. I like the nostalgia that it looks like the old pressure lock, too. People keep asking, so are they going to figure out how to not make the board rigged like that one guy who won? Yes, they figured out how not to rig the board. It is 2019 now. That is very likely. Yeah, it's a lot easier now for sure. Okay, back to Alice Cooper, if that's all right, and Spooky Pinball, because that's been, has it been a year now for you? I got hired by Spooky after the Texas Pinball Fest last year at the end of March. Okay. So, yes, it's been a year and four months now that I've been at Spooky part-time as a rules designer and the head of rules and programming as my official title, if there is one. But working on Cooper and beginning work on Scott Denise next game. Looking forward to that. But I've watched a few of your seminars. There was one recently at Pintastic where you brought out Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. You were there at Texas Pinball Festival as well. That's a fun game. We have one in our league here. I really enjoy playing it. Thanks. One of the things I feel committed to is trying to help build the concept that when you win a mode, something should be very satisfying. It's satisfying, of course. So the monster battles are difficult, but when you win one, you get rewarded big time. You get a 30-second ball save with bonus scoring opportunities. You get a hurry-up that counts down at the end of that time for additional score. And even just finishing the mode in the first place, you get a solid reward points-wise compared to the regular scoring that the mode would normally award. As a sidebar, I saw some of your posts recently where Alice Cooper actually themed his tour based on the pinball machine, which was very cool. It's insane.
    39:42
    We had no idea. No one in Spooky knew about this. But the Alice Cooper tour just started about a week and a half ago, and they break out their stage, and it looks like the pinball machine. It's got the castles and everything. And then they announced at the beginning of the show, welcome to Alice Cooper's nightmare castle. Awesome. And so the tour is going to be named Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle throughout the entire tour. And it's got the effects. Unfortunately, they do not play disco bloodbath boogie fever, as far as I can tell. That is the one downside of this tour. But it's crazy, right? Charlie at Spooky is over the moon about this. I've been influenced by so many rock musicians. I never believed that I could influence a Rocky session. That's pretty neat. I know Charlie was very excited to be working with Alice Cooper. I've been very fortunate a few times to have him on this radio show that I do, and I've even introduced him in concert too, which was very, very cool. I fanboyed out for sure. He is the nicest gentleman. Aside from the stage persona, like, I mean, it's all gore. It's vaudeville, as he calls it. And you have to take his stuff tongue-in-cheek, because I know you, Bowen Morley, have no interest or condone necrophilia. Yet in the game, there's cold Ethel, which he talks about. Well, you know what? But you just kind of have to, I laugh it off. I know it's not serious. Now, let's be clear. There are two necrophilia songs in the game. I love the dead. so basically you're saying Bowen that you're a big fan no of course not but like you say the Alice Cooper brand is all about this popular the tongue and feet-ness of it all and the wackiness of this character who does crazy things and you know you would actually have to ask Bug about this because Charlie's son Bug picked the songs and from what I've heard when you brought the list of songs to Alex Jumper initially before he agreed to do this game the list of songs is what led Alex to just say yeah this is great do whatever you want I trust you because the songs weren't the usual hit they were obscure tracks and interesting tracks from a lot of different albums and the reaction from that was very very positive to the vision And actually, I guess the reaction to so far as they make a tour based on that vision, that was incredible. But that was one of the reasons why we were able to basically make the game we wanted to make without having the oversight of a technical point. Actually, I wonder what a typical license would be like, because it didn't feel like that in making this game. We just said, well, let's do what we want. Try to throw Alice's head around after winning the guillotine. We didn't have to go back to Alice and say, it was okay to make an animation of his head being thrown around.
    42:55
    Yeah, yeah, exactly. You probably need that approval from a traditional point. Again, to the nature of Alice Cooper and just his off-the-wall songs like the two mentioned or his descent into madness songs like Stephen or The Ballad of Dwight Frye, just some great, great music. And I'm glad you're having fun with that game. We're having fun with it. Can hardly wait for Scott Denise's next game. I'm such a huge fan of TNA and everything done at Spooky. You're a busy guy. I've killed your cell phone battery, Bon. I'll let you go and have fun there in Utah. If I can have one more thing, one of the things I did not expect to happen when I started working for Spooky is that I was, I had to expect dramatically my son's musical taste. When we did a McCarran, he either wanted to put on music from totally one of my songs or I was going to put on a beer can. You know what? And he talks to other kids about asking them what their favorite Alice Cooper songs are. And the other kids are like, what? The two with what?
    43:56
    It's very interesting having my son along with his aging wife. My young son, the first time he heard an Alice Cooper song, it was schools out, and he said, Dad, there are words that rhyme with principal. And I thought, okay, you're listening to the lyrics, you're liking this, I thought it was pretty cool. So a great game. I'll let you go, Bowen. Bowen, thank you very much. I'll see you in a few weeks, and I look forward to Pinberg and ReplayFX and Whipped and Intergalactic and all the good things that happen August 1st through the 4th in Pittsburgh. It's going to be a lot of fun. I'm looking very much forward to it. It's a celebration, an opportunity. So many of my best friends and the happiest place to be. I'll see you there. And I'm sure some new friends, too. Bowen, thanks very much. Thanks. Bye-bye. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at pinballprofile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. And please subscribe on your favorite podcatcher. I'm Jeff Teels.