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The Pinball Show Ep 156: Hawk Terry

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 52m·analyzed·Jul 2, 2024
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TL;DR

TPS Ep 156: Stern production updates, July pause, John Wick/Jaws code, market trends, speculation on fall releases.

Summary

Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discuss Stern Pinball production updates, including a shipping pause in early July, upcoming Deadpool Pro builds, and new code updates for John Wick (.83) and Jaws (.91). They cover ancestry/DNA testing and historical documentaries before pivoting to pinball industry news, accessory sales trends, and speculation about unannounced titles. Notable discussion includes the event-driven effect system in John Wick, topper speculation, and market softness in pinball accessories.

Key Claims

  • Stern Pinball will not be shipping any machines this week (early July)

    high confidence · Zach Minney states this directly, speculating it may be an end-of-fiscal timing or July 4th related pause; production continues but shipping halts

  • Deadpool Pro will be the last build for the year

    medium confidence · Zach mentions 'Deadpool Pros again last build for the year' in July shipping discussion; uncertain about other July releases

  • John Wick code .83 update included over 100 new film quotes and event-driven effect system for synchronized lighting/shaker/speaker integration

    high confidence · Dennis describes the update as 'hefty' with dynamic choreography of visual/audio/haptic effects tied to film scenes

  • Jaws code .91 added search multiball mini wizard mode and 4th of July challenge mode

    high confidence · Zach details the new code additions for Jaws, including time-of-day lighting effects on toppers

  • Jaws accessories (Jaws toppers) are selling poorly; inventory overstock requires creative displays

    medium confidence · Zach notes toppers are selling so poorly they had to reorder more and joked about 'building castles out of them'; high inventory suggests low demand

  • Expression speaker lighting kit for Jaws has no official ship date or details available to dealers

    high confidence · Zach states dealers have 'no information' about announcement timing despite public announcement

  • A new cornerstone game may arrive in September

    low confidence · Zach expresses speculation about September release; no confirmed information provided, acknowledges 'hope has forsaken these lands'

  • Godzilla anniversary edition (70th or 75th) may be released in July as rumor

    low confidence · Dennis mentions this as unconfirmed speculation; Zach notes uncertainty and personal unwillingness to purchase another copy

Notable Quotes

  • “I'm not buying another Godzilla, though. I already have one. It might be sexier. It might, but I. Or it may just be a rumor.”

    Zach Minney @ ~44:00 — Reflects market fatigue and collector hesitation about limited edition re-releases; admission of speculation without confirmation

  • “They are selling so poorly that we had to go back and order more last week. We just like building castles out of them, so that's the only reason.”

    Zach Minney @ ~48:00 — Indicates severe oversupply of Jaws toppers and weak market demand for premium accessories

  • “I don't trust the hope it has forsaken these lands, but I do think that maybe a new cornerstone could hit in September.”

    Zach Minney @ ~43:00 — Expresses deep uncertainty about game pipeline; acknowledges community fatigue with missed release expectations

  • “Mark my word that game... I, for one, am a huge fan of this because this kind of helps the inception of pinball moments.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~52:00 — Endorsement of John Wick's event-driven effect system as advancing immersion and 'pinball moments'

  • “A lot of topping functionality added substantially with this new code update, including something really cool, the time of day lighting that they've added.”

    Zach Minney @ ~57:00 — Highlights innovative code feature mimicking aquarium lighting cycles; demonstrates Stern's attention to detail in updates

  • “It's rough out there. It's exhausting. Same with, like, pinball accessories, too. Nobody's buying anything.”

    Zach Minney @ ~47:00 — Direct statement about market downturn affecting both game sales and accessory demand

  • “I think maybe they do [two different toppers]. Stern hasn't done this, I think, since Iron Maiden.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~50:00 — Speculation based on prior product strategy; suggests Stern may optimize topper revenue

  • “I think it would need much more contrast specifications, and maybe we need stronger projectors. I don't know.”

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonStern PinballcompanyJohn Wick PinballgameJaws PinballgameDeadpool PinballgameJurassic Park PinballgameBlack Knight PinballgameIron Maiden PinballgameGodzilla PinballgameStranger Things Pinballgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Expression speaker lighting kit for Jaws publicly announced but with no official release timeline or dealer information; product communication gap

    high · Zach: 'we had to go back and order more... dealers do not have any information about the expression speaker lighting kit'

  • ?

    community_signal: John Wick code .83 introduces event-driven effect system (EDES) with synchronized lighting, shaker, and speaker integration choreographed to film content, advancing 'pinball moments' immersion

    high · Dennis: 'Mark my word that game... I, for one, am a huge fan of this because this kind of helps the inception of pinball moments.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Dennis speculates Stern may deploy two-topper strategy for John Wick (Continental + film-specific design) based on Iron Maiden precedent to maximize placement opportunity

    low · Dennis: 'Stern hasn't done this, I think, since Iron Maiden. I think they might do two different toppers... I think they will do a Continental one.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Stern intentionally abandoned Sharky Ball prototype feature for Jaws after realizing design concept wasn't viable; demonstrated restraint in 'could vs. should' decision-making

    medium · Dennis: 'That looked like Left Shark... They were right not to do it... They were proving their point very well.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Stern managing John Wick topper design around existing Continental feature; creative constraints driving two-topper speculation

    medium · Dennis: 'It can't be the car. It can't be the Continental. We already have that... I think maybe they do two different toppers.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.339

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. This week on a most formidable pinball show, Dennis and I provide the latest Stern pinball production updates, new pinball moments, code, and content from Stern. Dennis and I's ancestry, paying tribute to an American icon, the ongoing Haggis Pinball production concerns, and how Flippin' Out Pinball will be handling those tired of waiting for their Centaur revisited games. Deeper discussion on the pinball industry's use of a deposit system, as well as other news and updates around the pinball hobby. Official TPS Club members get exclusive content this week of Dennis and I debating whether or not new pinball machines can even be compared to older eras of pinball gaming based on immersion and theme integration. there's no reason for debate. This is the Pinball Show, and it's going to stimulate that pinball brain of yours.
1:11
Pinball is a game of fool. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. freedom and they can't take that away.
1:34
It's pinball with personality. And I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free. Welcome back to the one, the only, the pinball show. We're in episode 156. I'm Zach Minney alongside Dennis Creasel. Good day, Zach. Good day. Hey, what? Sorry. Is that you, Damien? Well, we've got a lot to discuss. and talk about this episode here at the Pinball Show. A lot of industry happenings, and we are here to provide you with the newest updates around the different manufacturers, around the hobby in general. But first, Dennis, I've got to ask, it's that time of the year. It's one of my favorite times of the year, the summer. I love scorching heat. I really love the scorching heat. People are like, I'm a spring, fall, poppycock. Give me that heat, baby. Poppycock. I hate the snow. I do. I love it. And even if I catch a whiff in the fall of, like, it getting cold, this weekend I went to the exotic Sandusky, Ohio. And even then, I took a sweatshirt with me everywhere I went. People were like, dude, it's 90 degrees. Well, you never know when you get a nice breeze or you're in a cold restaurant. No, no. I don't want to be cold. But it's that time of the year. It's the July time of the year. It's the scorching heat. So we're going to be celebrating here soon a very, very important holiday here at the Pinball Show. But first, I wanted to discuss with the listeners, Dennis. I remember telling you and telling them I've been on this kick lately of physics and black holes and, like, existentialism and philosophy. I've been on that for like three or four months, led to a lot of anxiety and such, but a newfound appreciation nonetheless for a lot of scientific principles that I was, you know, just kind of soft on. Now I'm just like semi-soft on them. Still don't understand what the hell is going on, but intrigued nonetheless. But now I've transferred over, and I think it started with, I did this 23andMe DNA testing. Have you heard of this? Yeah, I've heard of that one and a couple of the others. Yeah, and I don't need the e-mails people. I know they've got my DNA. They can make clones of my, whatever. I don't give a fuck.

Stern may produce two different toppers for John Wick to maximize placement, similar to Iron Maiden strategy

low confidence · Dennis speculates this is plausible based on past Iron Maiden two-topper approach; no official confirmation

  • Projector system from Stranger Things is unlikely to return due to lighting contrast requirements and high development cost

    medium confidence · Zach explains technical/logistical constraints; notes LCD screens performed better visually than projector output

    • Zach Minney @ ~54:00 — Technical assessment of why projector systems abandoned; indicates LED/LCD superiority in bright arcade environments

    The Pinball Show
    organization
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Tim Sextonperson
    Haggis Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Centaur Revisitedgame
  • $

    market_signal: Pinball market experiencing broad softness: game sales slowing, accessories not moving, collectors unwilling to spend on new limited editions

    high · Zach: 'It's rough out there. It's exhausting. Same with, like, pinball accessories, too. Nobody's buying anything.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jaws code .91 adds time-of-day lighting effects that mimic aquarium lighting cycles; demonstrates attention to innovative topper functionality

    high · Zach details new feature: 'the time of day lighting that they've added... throughout the day, the lighting will mimic what it is based on the time'

  • ?

    product_concern: Jaws topper inventory severely oversold; hosts joking about 'building castles' with excess stock, indicating weak market demand for premium accessories

    high · Zach: 'They are selling so poorly that we had to go back and order more last week. We just like building castles out of them.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern production pause in early July; Deadpool Pro confirmed as last build of 2024; September potentially targeted for new cornerstone release

    medium · Zach: 'I don't trust the hope it has forsaken these lands, but I do think that maybe a new cornerstone could hit in September.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Godzilla anniversary edition (70th or 75th) rumored for July release, but unconfirmed; Zach expresses skepticism and personal unwillingness to repurchase

    low · Dennis: 'I guess that could come out in July, that Godzilla 70th or 75th or whatever, if it is.' Zach: 'I'm not buying another Godzilla.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community sentiment turning negative on market conditions and future releases; hosts expressing fatigue, skepticism about unannounced titles, and loss of purchasing confidence

    high · Zach: 'No one ordered any of this stuff anyway... It's exhausting. It's rough out there... I'm like everyone else in this hobby.'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Projector-based LCD systems (Stranger Things model) abandoned in favor of LED/LCD due to lighting contrast constraints in bright arcade environments

    medium · Zach: 'The biggest feedback, is people didn't like that it wasn't as strong visually as, like, an LCD screen.'

    • 4:01
    Sorry, I'm such a nasty. I'm like, is that what they want? Pinside would love that. That's all we need, all the companies to be flipping out. Right. Have you heard of awarding saviors that many? I'll just have them everywhere over the country.
    4:17
    So I did this 23andMe. Not so much of the medical trigger, like what am I going to die from? When am I going to die? But like the ancestry piece, when I was raised, both sides of my family, my mother's and father's side, very Catholic, big families, family of like 12, big old families. And everybody was always like, you're German, you're German, you're German. And it just seemed very boring to me. I was like, okay, I guess I'm just German, which is fine. It's fine, yeah. That's German. It's fine. And my grandfather used to speak in some German phrasings at times and stuff. So I just always thought I was German. So I thought, I'm going to get this thing back. It's going to be German, but just so I know, you know, it's kind of cool. I did it for, I gifted Nicole, my wife, this, and she enjoyed it. So I was like, oh, it's gimmicky, but I'll still do it as well. So finding out my ancestry, my genetics, then kind of led to me like, oh, there's a documentary. Speaking of Germans, there's this Netflix documentary about Hitler.
    5:16
    Hitler was Austrian. does anything in europe is german to me okay so so mean well no that's what hitler wanted that was that was kind of his goal but yes well he came up a little short so then i've been just watching the hitler documentary and that was kind of that was pretty cool because i've never been a history person so i'm like soaking up all this information like oh that makes sense now and uh yes very ignorant in uh in geography and in history in general it's just not my strong suit i'm a science math kind of guy so uh and soft sciences maybe a little bit but uh so diving into history now dude i am full-blown like i know all the comedians make fun of uh make fun of us middle-aged men they're like at some point you're just going to be diving into old documentaries and histories, and that's where I'm at. So I'm, like, soaking up all these documentaries of World War II in color, in HD, like, all this stuff. And I am just consuming and loving it. Have you went through this phase of your life yet? I've always had an interest in history. Oh, really? So, yeah, I've watched lots of documentaries on all sorts of things for years and years. I mean, I never, like, thought about majoring in it or anything. But I don't know if you're familiar with, like, the personality tests like Myers-Briggs, right? Yeah, absolutely. Very familiar. Are you familiar with the one Gallup does called Clifton Strengths? No, I'm not. I don't know them. The Gallup group, which is known for its polling, it has like 34 personality kind of indicators that they scale you on to find out what your strongest ones are. It's all very positive and all of it. Well, I'm wondering what branch of measurement. Is it like poli-sci or something? Where did this come from? It's not psychology, is it? Yeah, no. I mean, it's about personality and, like, your work traits and things like that. So it's very much, it's just got more levels, more categories than something like Myers-Briggs, but it puts everything into four boxes. Yeah, yeah. That's one that professionals, clinicians don't really use. Limits are the tool, but it makes it easy to understand. Well, Clifton, so it goes a lot broader. Anyway, where I work, everyone does Clifton. They do it in part because they like to focus in particular on your five highest areas or your five Clifton strengths, as they describe it. And we often will chart those out because depending on what projects may come up, you may look at this and go, maybe I should ask if this person would like to do it. It seems to be in their wheelhouse of what they enjoy, like where their strength is at conceptually.
    7:58
    Case in point. It's like a vocational kind of thing. Right, right, right. So anyway, long story short. One of my five top strengths, in fact, I think it's my number one when I did it, was context, which is I want to, as it describes, which was, of course, as you would expect, quite accurate, was I like to know the history of any topic that I'm working on before I make decisions. Which is true. Whenever I have something and someone comes to me about something, I go, tell me what the background of that, like, why do we do what we currently do? I want the history as much as you can tell me about it. And then once I know that, then I start making decisions. And you're very much like that, too. No, no. I mean, I can't say who's flipped in strengths. I like the top five. I haven't looked at my other, like some people use their top ten. They choose a team, but yeah. No, essentially because we have a whole breakdown for the executive team. So you've always liked. I have one top five that no one else has, and a bunch of them have other strengths that are not in my top five. Oh. Was yours like girth or what? Yeah.
    8:59
    You'll love this one. Discipline. Oh, gee. Wow. And I expect things to operate on structure. But on the receiving end of those, quite a few. Yeah, it's been. It's been. I'll tell you, I struggle mightily with meetings that don't start on time. I'm like, you guys, come on. I've learned that over the years. At least that's not time we follow. And that goes right into one of our bulky topics this week, doesn't it? So, yeah, I've been consuming a lot of that stuff. But back to some of the ancestry stuff. But I was surprised. Like, what's your ancestry? What is it? Oh, it's a hodgepodge. Like, Alaskan, you're like into it? What are you? Not native Alaskan. There's a little bit of Cherokee on the maternal side. However, my largest, because there's more ethnic makeup on the maternal side than the paternal. So I'm predominantly Greek and German because my dad's side. like my grandparents were maybe second generation, I think. Okay. My grandma's Greek and my grandfather's German. I think I remember you talking about the Greek. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, obviously the last name is German, so that makes it pretty obvious that that part was in there. But, yeah, my paternal grandmother, I think, may be full Greek. Wow. She doesn't speak Greek, but she would make some Greek dishes and stuff for me. One of my idols, my biggest idol, John Stamos, is Greek. So I favor the Greeks. I like them. So anyway, so there's that side. And then my mom's side, I think, was also some German, some Irish, Cherokee, I mentioned. Those are the ones I remember. I don't really know all the, you know. Very nice hot spots and things then. There was a lot of stuff, yeah. I thought it was German. I get this thing back. And I was kind of wrong. Maybe my family was wrong as well. So I'm still super boring white. But I am a really, maybe even a majority French. Oui, oui. French. Like, I would have never. French? Yeah. So it classifies like this group called French-German, like 53% French-German. But when I go into the specifics of that categorization, nothing in Germany is highlighted. It is all portions of France. I would have never guessed that. Swiss? Switzerland? when, like, mostly French. How about that? And then 36% is British and Irish. So that concludes the rest of the boring white people stuff. But French would have never guessed it. And as I'm learning through the World War II documentaries, French kind of laid over there a bit, didn't they? Just kind of, eh, don't give it to you. It's fine.
    11:46
    And allies came and helped, and they were like, okay, no, yeah, we're over with you guys now. Well, you know, they thought the Maginot Line was going to do something that it didn't do. Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, Blitzcrank was new. It was fast. People didn't know what to do about it for a while. So am I allowed to do the stereotypical fringe haul?
    12:07
    Well, if you were Bruce Nightingale from Slime Show, what you are allowed to do wouldn't be used to stop you from doing accents. I've been so much interesting stuff the last week or so that I'm learning about myself and everything. And it just rolls right into the pinball show and how we celebrate the 4th of July here on the show. We love it each and every year. And I thought, you know what? As I'm learning more and more about my ancestry and history in general, nothing pays the best homage to this country's birthday and celebration than Mr. Sergeant Terry himself. Terry, go ahead and back it up for me, baby. Hold the hand, Chico.
    12:51
    Hey, hold on. Hold, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold. Two cars coming. You got two cars coming two different ways.
    12:58
    Bag up, bag up. Bag up, Terry. What do you mean, Terry? Put him in third! Oh, Lord! Oh, Steve! Oh, Lord! Oh, Steve! What the, what the, what the, what the, what the, what the? Oh, Terry! Terry, what the, what the, what the? What the, what the, what the?
    13:27
    He's back! Terry is back! Still doesn't get old. Is Craig Bobby back? Craig Bobby's not back. Oh. He is not back. Damn. My poor, poor family. Each and every year, they get the Terry. I'll have the t-shirt on for a couple of days. They get it all. Love you, Terry. I think Terry's still living, actually. You said last year that people got him a new wheelchair. Terry, to me, is like Hawk to a girl is to 2024. What's one move in bed that makes a man go crazy every time? What do you refer to, Terry? Oh, you've got to give him that hawk. Oh, no. He said all that stuff.
    14:08
    You said you weren't going to mention that. Well, I don't know what you're talking about. It's a low-hanging fruit. It's a fruit that no one else but you knows. Oh, day two. Email Dennis.
    14:21
    I finally saw Oppenheimer. And? It was fun. What? There's no interstellar, but, you know. Well, no, there weren't as many bombs.
    14:35
    There's one big bomb, but not a lot of bombs. Yeah. A lot of dialogue. Well, yes. Had to stay on that 70 millimeter IMAX. I knew it was about life, so I was like, they can't really inject a lot of action. I'd actually read about Oppenheimer years ago, so I knew they couldn't inject a lot of action. Yeah, that's right. It was a beautifully done film. It was just a, it was a, that's filmmaking at its finest. But, yeah, it wasn't much of a blockbuster. Like, everybody was like, oh, that and Barbie. It's like, well, temper your expectations if that's what you're looking for. This isn't Armageddon.
    15:10
    We're going to put Ben Affleck. The gazelle. That's the part I always remember with him and Tyler. He all comes back to the gazelle. It's just for the moment. Rising up the outback. Oh, my God. What a terrible moment. That came out, Deep Impact was like the thinking man's apocalyptic movie that year, but everyone went to see Armageddon. Yeah, Armageddon was actually entertaining, and Deep Impact put you deep asleep. Yeah, I agree. No, Deep Impact had some stuff. But that was before Elijah Wood had his big break as Frodo. Look, you are the Deep Impact, and I am the Armageddon of pinball podcasting. I'll give you that. You are the Dante's Peak, and I am the Volcano. I get Dante's Peak? You get Dante's Peak with James Bond trying to run away from a volcano, and I get Tommy Lee Jones trying to U.S. Marshal his way through a volcano.
    16:04
    Didn't U.S. Marshal, was it? They had Wesley Snipes in it. They did. Yeah, I thought so. And Robert Downey Jr. Oh. That was the sequel to The Fugitive because Tommy Lee Jones' character was so popular, they did a second movie. Oh. I need to go back and watch it. Listeners, we're sorry. And by sorry, not really sorry, because I really don't care. What about Stern Pinball? Let's jump into pinball. Stern Pinball production updates. Over the last couple of weeks, Dennis and Lissner, they've been making Jaws Pro, Black Knight Pro. Black Knight made his return.
    16:35
    And then Iron Maiden Pro and Iron Maiden Premiums. That's what they've been doing. And interestingly enough, this week, Stern Pinball will not be shipping any pinball machines. Really? Yeah. Why? I think it might be like an end of fiscal thing. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But this week they don't plan. They'll still be producing, I think, games. I think they're still going to be making some Iron Maidens, finishing up all of that. But, yeah, this week nothing is shipping from Stern Pinball.
    17:05
    Okay. Well, enjoy. No one ordered any of this stuff anyway. Man, last Friday, or a couple days ago, it was a mad rush because they were trying to get everything shipped out because they knew they weren't going to ship anything this week. It's kind of like the 180 of what they do in January, where they take usually two weeks in January. Yeah, that's the thing I was thinking. I thought you had told me, and I thought, isn't it December, January where they do that break, like that three-week break? January is like the full, like, let's redo all the end. What is with this little baby vacation? I don't know. Maybe it's a July 4th thing, you know, because we've got July 4th. Yeah, and I mean, it is in the middle of the week-ish. And Monday they're not going to probably ship anything Because they're probably off on Monday And then they get back I don't know But it is what it is Early July we're still going to get the remainder Of Jurassic Park premiums They started that a week or two ago Making some of those But making the remainder of those We'll still in July get Deadpool Pros Again last build for the year And I don't know what else Is coming in July So that's a big month.
    18:17
    But you know what? Anymore, I think we are the only ones that still think maybe something's coming in July. Nobody else has talked about that. So I don't know. I think I'm going to join everyone else and say, I don't think so. Okay, all right. I'm still holding out hope. Yeah, but... Okay. I still hold out hope. What about August? August comes and we're going to get some more done works. I don't really have hope for August either. September, that's where I'm holding out. I don't trust the hope it has forsaken these lands, but I do think that maybe a new cornerstone could hit in September. Yeah, we would be due probably for a new cornerstone in September. And people keep going back and forth. They still think there's going to be some kind of specialty like Godzilla anniversary edition or a Metallica kind of thing. Oh, I keep thinking about the Godzilla. I guess that could come out in July, that Godzilla 70th or 75th or whatever, if it is. Yeah, so I don't, I legit do not know. I'm not buying another Godzilla, though. I already have one.
    19:20
    It might be sexier. It might, but I. Or it may just be a rumor. I'm like everyone else in this hobby. You know, these games are real heavy. I'm tired of moving them. I'm tired of trying to sell them. No one wants to spend big money anymore. Everyone's like, oh, the market's dying. And so I just have to leave all the games piled up. It's just. It's exhausting. It's rough out there. It is rough out there. It's exhausting. Same with, like, pinball accessories, too. Nobody's buying anything. It's all just nobody's buying the Jaws topper. I saw someone try and talk themselves into believing that they actually were starting to like the Jaws topper, but I think they're just really trying to justify the $1,000 they spend. They are selling so poorly that we had to go back and order more last week. We just like building castles out of them, so that's the only reason. I also saw Five Nights at Freddy's. Oh, God. There was a part where a fort was built. Spoilers. So that's what reminded me of it. I can't recommend that movie. I've never seen it. Well, I guess it's based on a video game, which I had only seen the memes online. I didn't really know what the history of it was. But for a horror movie, it needed to be a lot scarier. So I can't recommend it. Isn't there a pita bread in it? Yeah. I was like, this guy looks so familiar to me. But I couldn't place him because he wasn't disguised as a rock. I saw in that first Hunger Games movie where he disguised himself as a rock that still pisses me off that's why certain pass on it they were like we can't have PETA was probably going to do the call outs no one remembers that fell in my son's wheelhouse he grew up on that game and he watched and he was like no it was horrible they blew it I guess they stuck a lot of Easter eggs in for the fans of the video games, but he's right. It's not a strong movie. I do remember that was one of the things that, not to bore people, but as a practicing psychologist when I was seeing children, a lot of anxiety would come from different things of content within pop culture and stuff, and Five Nights at Freddy's was one of those things. I had probably a handful of kids that had anxiety around that material. Well, I mean, it is horror. I don't know why I was allowed to watch as much horror as I did as a kid, because I had nightmares, and I was just told, well, then quit watching it. And I was like, but I want to. Horror, okay. I mess up that word sometimes. I just say it really fast. You know, like Night of the Living Dead and zombie movies and all that. I watched all that stuff. But you've never seen Stephen King's It? No, I have not.
    21:58
    Whatever. When it comes to accessories, though, Jaws accessories still shipping very well, still selling very well. We still, as dealers, do not have any information about the expression speaker lighting kit that they have announced. We don't know when that is coming. We don't know much of anything about that yet. Have you, Zach, heard anything about the John Wick topper? I've not. Nothing. I mean, absolutely nothing. What do you think it will be?
    22:24
    I've not thought about it. It can't be the car. It can't be the Continental. We already have that. Well, the Continental is kind of obvious. Here's what I think. I think maybe they do. Stern hasn't done this, I think, since Iron Maiden. I think they might do two different toppers.
    22:40
    Why? Because they're trying to maximize the place. I think they will do a Continental one. That'll mostly just be lighting effects. And then I also think there will be one based off the first movie where the little bad guy stomps the dog. Ouch, man.
    23:01
    Spoilers, by the way. A crushed dog topper. But they don't have the rights to that dog, so it has to look like Toto instead. I thought it was going to be like lenticular, so dog intact for one. And then you move and it's. You're lenticular, so the dog's face changes from a happy puppy to a puppy with a shock. A Pikachu. The gunshot to the head.
    23:26
    It's horrible. I remember giving a speech bubble when it ventriculates and it says Baba Yaga. Help me, Baba Yaga. You're my only hope. They never did the Hulk 2D2, and that was gold.
    23:41
    They should have done that. Speaking of John Wick, there is a new code for John Wick, .83. It was a hefty one, too. It was a hefty one. Huge, huge job. Feels good. Yeah, feels good. A lot of tweaking, a lot of balancing. Added over 100 new film quotes as the game speech call-outs. added what they're calling, and people are teasing, I don't get the whole teasing about this, this is freaking awesome, event-driven effect system. An E-D-E-S in pen name? Yeah. Edis. I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that effect for you. But the event-driven effect system is what they're calling it. It's like dynamic synchronized lighting, shaker integration, speaker lighting, that all is choreographed with the film scenes for gunshots, combat, impacts, explosions, other film effects. So a lot more choreography into the different senses, the visual senses, the feeling senses, the sound. So all of that stuff. And I, for one, am a huge fan of this because this is kind of helps the inception of pinball moments. So wonderfully done, firm pinball. Tim Sexton and whoever else is responsible for the 80s that we are seeing in John Wick. Mark my word that game. Do you think they should have brought back the UV lighting effect system and that's where the guns were? I get the joke, but I was thinking about the UV, if that would have worked for that game. It may have. Do you think they're ever going to use the projector system from Stranger Things again? That seems like a lot of development effort for just one game.
    25:08
    I think it's tough because so much light is needed for the product of pinball that it's counterintuitive doing a projector with a lot of light in the area. It's tough. I think it would need much more contrast specifications, and maybe we need stronger projectors. I don't know. But that was the biggest feedback, is people didn't like that it wasn't as strong visually as, like, an LCD screen. I want it, though, and I want the UV to come back, too. I think both of those things would have been cool. What's the rumored game that Brian and I is working on next? I say maybe you can do it next, but I don't even know what the rumored game is. Yeah, I haven't heard, like, which one specifically. I mean, we heard all sorts of rumors, like, you know, the D&D game and stuff. But, yeah, I haven't heard, like, one of those tied to a particular, not to his name at least. I would love to see more of that type of integration. I love that kind of stuff. I really thought that. Remember how surprised everybody was, Dennis, whenever the UV kit came out and there was UV ink already on the plate? That was a cool surprise. It was a neat surprise. You know what would really work with it? The shadow. Oh, yeah. Because the face changed, and so you used going to the UV state for shadow mode versus rich Playboy mode or whatever it was. And, as you know, the shadow has never had a pinball machine, so it would be a good thing to bring back. All right. It would be a great thing to do for the first time ever in pinball. In fact, I hope you and Greg talk about that at some point. Toy Story has never been made, period. It hasn't. new code for this new code for Jaws .91 it wasn't Jaws 4 it was Jaws I can't ever say that word .91 this is the darling of this year thus far everybody wants their Jaws this year that's right they added a new mini wizard mode called search multiball and you can select that instead of rescue multiball if you'd like and then they've added 4th of July as a challenge So that mode is a wizard mode already in the game, but now you can equip it to be a challenge-based thing where I think there's unlimited ball save and such, a time-based kind of thing. So there's that. A lot of topper functionality added increased substantially with this new code update, including something really cool, the time of day lighting that they've added. So I used to have this on one of my high-end aquariums where throughout the day, the lighting will mimic what it is based on the time it is of the day. So the dusk, the sun will be setting, the lighting kind of going down, turning more blues and darker. And then in the height of the day, brighter, you get more yellows and oranges. I didn't know you were a fancy pants aquarium person. Oh, very much so. So much so that I turn my nose up at freshwater fish. Oh, so you are marine only. Oh, yes, very much saltwater. And freshwater I always think it cute because it fun Like I equate that to throwing the ping pong balls and the things where you get the goldfish Oh you know What it look like inside a lake Oh that interesting Now, fuck koi. I'm all about salt water. Yeah, fuck koi. That's my motto for the day. Everyone's favorite fish. Send your emails, everybody. Sick leave. Have you seen my sick leave with no personality?
    28:35
    What am I, like the Hitler of Aquaria here? Right into the pinball show at gmail.com and advise. Does that take another Disney cruise or should he invest in a mantis shrimp? Only saltwater fish has the purity and the pedigree. Do you have one of them zebrafish? Oh, my God, Dennis. What does that even mean? I'm like, I used to be a snob of saltwater fish. I don't even know what zebrafish is. I think they have another name. The one with the spines that you could hand feed. They're like a pest. Oh. Oh! You're thinking of the lionfish. Thank you, lionfish. Oh, I made it pray rather than a predator. Sorry, lionfish. It's like zebrafish. Well, it has stripes. It's like a convict tang that has black and white stripes. Yeah, did you have one of those? No, I never have convict tang. Too common, too plebe. You probably didn't have clownfish either. Everybody gets clownfish. I don't because I don't like clowns in this house. Clownfish are essential. I would recommend clownfish. Well, you have sea anemones. Beautiful. Did you have anemones for them? You have to, right? I did. They're hard to take care of. Don't you just like the clownfish and the clownfish does all the work for them? They do have that relationship, but some of them don't match with that anemone. So, and the anemones can sting you, and you could be allergic to them, and they're a sticky feeling. I won't go into this. People don't want to hear all this. But a really weird sensation. We're probably talking about the next American pinball theme, Marine Aquarium. That might work. If they have the right lighting, it could look cool. Man. So, anyway, this topper had that type of change of day lighting. And you can cycle it quicker if you want to see all cycles throughout one day. You can see multiple cycles a day. I approve. Damn it. I do want to give a saltwater aquarium again. I was more into the reef building up different corals, rare corals, you know. Yes. large polyp stonies versus small polyp stonies and soft corals. Oh, talk about an expensive hobby.
    30:40
    Holy shit. That hobby will get you in trouble. Wait a minute. They classified that coral in the endangered species. You're going to jail. Oh, no. Uh-oh. Oh, shit. A lot of pinheads are also saltwater aquarium reefers. Yeah. All right. What else do they have? Okay, a bunch more on that Jaws code. Go buy one today. You're going to love it. People are sucking up the inventory of Jaws right now. Anybody interested in John Wick?
    31:05
    No. They had a making of Jaws video from Stern Pinball. Did you see that? I did not. We actually seen the prototype, thin-shaped, moving job target. I saw the photo of the prototype part. And the infamous Sharky Ball was there, too. It was super ugly. I mean, no offense. I was just like, and I get it was a prototype. I was like, oh, my gosh. That looked like Left Shark. That's what that looked like. But how it was going to work, yeah, is a little underwhelming. They were right not to do it. Yeah.
    31:40
    They were proving their point very well. They've experienced Jurassic Park, the movie, and they understood the difference between should and could and make the right choice there.
    31:50
    Also in that making of Jaws video, you've got to go check it out, was they sneak peeked, like, the Jaws the Revenge, an 8-bit mode available where you actually are the shark.
    32:02
    There was a video game for the NES that was based off Jaws the Revenge. My grandparents had it, so I would play it sometimes when I was down there. So I think it's a – It was not a good game. Well, if a game is in a game here. Sure. It probably is better as a pinball game. So this is based on, like, Insider Connected. If you earn enough shark teeth, then you can enable this type of mode. Also very cool. It's all insider connected now, man. Everything's connected. There are new contracts out for John Wick now. They've been teasing them. They're now out. If you have notifications turned on with your insider connected, you will get contacted when new contracts come up for the John Wick game. But you better be quick because some of them are limited. This is what I love about this. Some of them are limited in numbers to how many contracts they will issue out. And then the contract's closed. You did not earn it because you were not quick enough to achieve it. Dun, dun. That's freaking cool. That's going to make completionists mad. Well, they've got to be quick, man. They don't want to be quick. They want to complete. It depends on how quick you are. Well, I mean, I understand how time works.
    33:13
    All right, all right, all right. Do you really? The power of love overcomes quantum physics, okay? Murph! Okay, brah. Murph! Why don't you spin your top? I don't care as much about the sun, even though he's the one that's pulling. Hey, look, we did it. I got back to her, and I sat high for 30 seconds, and then I ditched her. I want to be an ass like not his brother.
    33:33
    Murph! I think for the rest of his life, he refused to eat corn. Dusty corn. I fucking love that movie so much. It's like top three for me of all time. I know you like it. Love it. All right, let's see. New contracts. Okay, new contracts out for John Wick. Some of them aren't such time-based, limited, like were you only issuing – well, like they're not really timed, but I guess they are. Basically, like they're like you got 200 contracts. We're going to give out 200 achievements for this. Be quick.
    34:03
    Yeah, I hope you didn't go on vacation. Or taking a really long shit. Like, oh, no, please, wait for me. Oh, new content out also. Speaking of toppers, I did a video flipping out pinball. did a short form media reel, whatever you want to call it, pranking your wife at work. Since I work with Nicole, I pranked her. The kids and I, we got all these Jaws toppers in, and she does all of our accessories, organization, sales, shipping, that kind of stuff. So she needed to ship all these things. But to be a little stinker, my kids and I brought all these big old topper boxes in. I'm not going to say how many, but you can count. But there were a lot of toppers. and we decorated her entire, we engulfed her desk. We couldn't even see her desk anymore. And a castle-esque type of structure where she had to walk through the gate.
    34:56
    And once you went into the gate, there was even a chair made of toppers. Please tell me you've seen this. No, I don't usually watch the topper videos.
    35:09
    All of that work. It was like a... We didn't do all of that work for me to watch it. 30 seconds. Maybe I'll watch it later. Oh, my God. It was hilarious, though. She didn't find it... She was kind of mean. She didn't find it very funny, but I even left a little window so I could peek in on it.
    35:27
    She was like, really? This is what you do with your time? It's okay. Also, new content. I created a video for Flippin' Out Pinball. You go to the YouTubes right there on how to properly install pinball art blades. A step-by-step guide. A lot of people always ask about that. They're like, I want these art blades, but are they magnetic? Can you just snap them into place? I'm like, oh, no. They're, I would say, of all the accessories, the most difficult to install. Not difficult, but have you ever installed a set of art blades? No, I have not. Okay, so it's not hard, but there's more to do. There's more room for error on the install of these things. I did a video on how I do them. Maybe there's all kinds of methods. You can take the whole play field out.
    36:12
    There's all different ways to do it. But this is the easiest, quickest way that I find. I've probably done 100 ArtBlade installations by now in my pinball career. So go watch that. Or share it with a friend who may be interested in getting a set of ArtBlades and wants to try themselves. On to other stories. This week, a lot of discussion coming out of the Haggis Pinball thread on Pennside. Did you get a chance to keep up with the Haggis stuff? Usually you don't. No, I normally, I actually don't. I'm sure at one point I followed that thread, but I clearly had untagged it off Pennside at some stage. But this morning, I received a message saying, hey, you need to start on this page and you need to read this. We have a topic to cover on the Pinball show. So I have caught up with it, and I just now checked I am fully caught up. Interesting events over the last, what, three or four days, right? I was alerted Thursday. Alerted? A couple people.
    37:15
    People are nice, and they will reach out and say, hey, heads up, there's a discussion going on in this thread that pertains to you. You might want to see it or didn't know if you've been following, but here's something. And I didn't know that that was going on, so it's appreciated. So I went in there, and boy, oh, boy, there was plenty of discussion. Okay, listeners, you may want to buckle up. We've got a possible bumpy ride moving forward. If you look out the left-hand side of your plane, you see a fucking dumpster fire. If you look a little bit closer, you'll see it's a pen-side thread on Haggis Pinball. And take a look to the right of your plane, you'll see a hardware store that's fresh out of Pitchforks. I want to give people really quick, Dennis, a nutshell as to what got us to this point with Haggis Pinball and some of the concerns that people have. Haggis Pinball, really quickly, is a manufacturer of pinball machines that is located in Australia. They came out with a very niche little game called Kelts that was years back. And then they announced an agreement with Planetary Pinball or Bally Williams kind of stuff. They were going to remake some of the older games, some of the early Solid State stuff. They were going to start with Fathom. They're going to call it Fathom Revisited. They had a Mermaid Edition. All the new bells and whistles that 2024 could bring, including lighting and LCD screen technologies, but still paying tribute to the old game. They have a 2.0 code or a 1.0 code. A lot of great details in this game. Craftsmanship, expensive bill of material. They were top-notch. There's a lot going for them. over the years, though, problematically could not build them as fast as they would have liked. This was also during the, correct me if I'm wrong, but during kind of the COVID years, too. So everything was selling really well. So they sold a lot of these fathoms, maybe too many for argument's sake. Who knows? But initially, Haggis Pimble with the CEO, the owner of the company, Damien, very transparent media-wise. He would check in with people. Hey, here's the update. And then over time, as production slowed down on these items, communication kind of cut off. It went from being very transparent to no transparency at all. Then we went through a time period where virtually nothing was being built, and people were worried, rightfully so. Where in the hell is my game? They've got my money. I don't know. So at that point, there was probably a handful of different dealers throughout the United States and probably a handful of dealers throughout the rest of the world. They made promises here and there, you know, our goal is to get fathoms done by this point and announce the next game. Then that timeline came and went. And then we're going to have this. And then that timeline came and went again. And then they announced a new game. This was last July 4th, I believe. So not even a year from ago. They announced Centaur Revisitor. We're going to do Centaurs. And we've only got this many fathoms to make. We'll make them by the end of the year. That's our goal. And then they didn't make them by the end of the year. And now we're rolling into quarter one of 2024, and people are like, there's still a handful. There's not a ton, but there's still some out there that haven't been made. What the hell? I thought you were going to have, and then they said they were going to have Centaur when they announced it last July. We're going to have Centaur revisited. Our goal is to get them on the production line January, February 2024. That didn't happen Then it was a ghost town We as in the hobbyist community Didn't hear from Haggis For a long time And then they came out And gave an update saying We're restructuring Uh oh, restructuring And often times this was restructuring What does that even mean? It means trouble It could mean trouble So we're trying to get our assets together They were trying to, there's parts delayed, but fill in the blank for whatever the hell is going on. In the meantime, back in July, they consolidated their distribution channels much more. Where Europe, there was one dealer. Canada, one dealer. U.S., one dealer. This is where I come into the picture. I'm the owner and operator of Flippin' Out Pinball Distribution. The best damn distributor, no matter who you ask, right?
    41:48
    So we were doing sales. Flipping Out Pinball was doing sales of United States games for Centaur Revisited. We had sold Fathoms as well, but we had already sold all our Fathoms that we ordered, and that was, you know, well over a year ago, so we had nothing to do with Fathoms. But we took orders on Centaur, and we were the only U.S. dealer. Now, keep in mind, they were still selling direct, so a lot of people from the United States still bought direct from Haggis. Whenever they announced Centaur, eyes flipping out pinball, wanted people to feel more confident in their purchase because there was a lot of questions. Like they took forever for Fathom, and they weren't as transparent. We didn't hear anything. So I knew people were going to be concerned about that. So I came out and said, look, for all of our customers that order through us, you're not going to lose your deposit. It's going to be a nonrefundable deposit for sure. But if for some reason this company goes under, we're going to give you your money back. We'll take the hit on it. Rest assured, you will not take that hit. But I think so far that pretty, that sums it up pretty good. I mean, I guess so. Anything that agrees with some missing? No, I'd say maybe the main thing would be that a lot of the concerns that exist at this point are because Haggis did come out and basically in a public announcement said that they needed additional investors. Mm-hmm. They're restructuring. Right. But you covered the restructure. So I emphasize that while the transparency was welcomed by a lot of individuals, it definitely did not help with confidence in the survival of Haggis because the content of that restructuring, I felt, a lot of people felt, made it pretty clear that they were extremely cash-strapped. And so a lot of questions arose, especially because once you see something like that, how many more people are going to jump in and buy something from a company that's already saying we don't have the funds to successfully complete what we've got ordered already? Absolutely. Yes. And I would agree. I would agree with the concern for all of that. So we go to this Haggis thread And people kind of keep up with On Penn's side, the hobbyist community Has a thread for just these Haggis updates Or people just talking about the products in general And such, so that's kind of been a dumpster fire For quite some time, but no information Out there, so people are just kind of Sharpening their pitchforks and things They had a poke in somebody This last weekend, that's where Flippin' Out got the poke Of these prods And some might say rightfully so others would say, what? This makes no sense. But I thought, let's jump into it because at the end of all of this, there is a good resolution that comes out of this and people learn things out of this that we can apply industry-wide that I think would help not only me as a distributor, but hobbyists as well. So I think it's good discussion. So I'm going to pull this up here. So a lot of people started saying, hey, where are the deposits at? Why isn't Zach and Flippin' Out Pinball giving back the deposits that they took 11 months ago. They should be giving all this money back. And why this is ridiculous. Zach sucks. Flipping out sucks. How dare they? They're thieves. They're stealing your money. Watch your children and your pets. They may snatch those as well. I'm being a bit dramatic here. But if you read through, I'm not far off. So a lot of individuals upset here. I'm reading through. This guy was upset because he said, look, I've asked him for a refund. He said no. How dare he? I want to read the terms as I'm going through this. I'll read a couple more comments. What a lame response. Give me a break. Just refund the guy, Zach. This guy, I had previously bought a game from Zach, but now I passed because he didn't give me a refund, so I went to this dealer. This guy, I can understand the nonrefundable deposits, what you signed up for, essentially, but if they can't deliver what you ordered, you deserve your money back. Yeah, that's right. If that product ultimately can't be delivered, then the deposit should be refunded. If not, at the very least, you should have in-store credit. All right. Somebody else would come in and say something on the other side. I would say, you guys know, distros don't have this money. Haggis has the money. If Zach's flipping out pinball, gives one person a refund, everybody's going to want a refund, and he can't just pay out tens of thousands of dollars out of his pocket to be a bro. I don't know what that meant, but I think essentially what they're saying is he can't just be giving everybody I could. I would disagree. I think I could. But that's not the terms in which both parties agreed upon. We'll get to that later. Somebody said, no, I disagree. He took the deposits on the game that these games will never be delivered. He needs to step up and process those refunds. This guy said, what's your point? That's business. It has nothing to do with being a bro. He's 100% responsible if they took your money. It's on them to chase Haggis. That's why you've got a distributor. They can't have their cake and eat it, too. All right. I keep going. This is a poor business decision by flipping out pinball. I won't even buy a coil stop from him again. Dennis, I won't even buy a coil stop. Holy moly. Then the assumptive, so you take those things and then you're going to amp it up. That's what social media and people do. This person goes on to say, you know what, then I suspect he's going to be paying thousands upon thousands of dollars once he loses in court. Uh-oh, now I'm fucking going to court. This is an interesting take. Somebody said, Zach's in a weird position being distributor and having a podcast network is a double-edged sword. I have a network now. I enjoy the pinball show, even though I recognize it's a very entertaining infomercial for flipping out. Bye, bye, bye. He didn't put that, I did. Like most podcasts, Zach talks about aspects of his life, like buying a new home, constructing a new facility for his business, so we know more about Zach's life than other dealers. Agreed. He hosts a fun show, although I listen mostly for Dennis. Oh, fuck.
    47:48
    So when he turns around and he refuses to refund $1,000 deposits on a game that has missed several deadlines from a company that is seeking to recapitalize and most likely will never produce the game, it just looks bad. In my opinion, he should issue refunds today and then go after hags to recoup his money. Oh, and then more of the threats. And if he doesn't, this is another user. If he doesn't, he's going to be forced to refund these people by the courts. He doesn't have a leg to stand up on. Somebody that actually knows a little bit more about what's going on and personally the customer said, did any of you know Zach? He doesn't have a history of this type of behavior, not following the terms. If he said he's going to refund deposits once this company goes under, he would refund these deposits. I don't understand what the issue is here.
    48:35
    Somebody else chimes in, well, that's Zach's problem, not the people who gave. Zach Money and Good Faith. He shouldn't have gotten in bed with this person. He should have no problem refunding people that want their refund now. He's holding people's money hostage.
    48:50
    That was not part of the deal. Somebody else digs in. Avoid scummy dealers like this Zach guy. And then we get into more of the threats. I've been holding off giving his business a bad review on Facebook or Google, but I just can't be a bro anymore and not make more public stink about this. So now we're getting fevered up here. And then that person did have a negative review online and such to us because we wouldn't refund his nonrefundable deposit today when he wanted it. So a lot of that stuff, Dennis. And typically in those situations, as a business owner, I thought, well, what has changed? Has anything changed in the terms of agreement that both parties had? Before I talk about what my response was in that thread, we go back to the terms in which individuals signed up for this pre-order deposit. Very clear terms, so much so that on the product item page that individuals choose to purchase on, it has the following terms, not once but twice, and both times in all caps. All right, that's pretty quick. this deposit is non-refundable. This deposit is non-transferable to other products. Be aware. It's non-refundable. What does that mean, Dennis? It certainly means that you can't refund it. Okay. And if you can't transfer it to other products, you simply can't. Yeah, can't move it to buy a sterling. Okay. So when you message me demanding, hey, this is a shit show, you're going to eat this, you need to give me back my money immediately or transfer it to another thing, while ultimately I could do that, I may do that, that's fine, that would be breaking the terms in which we agreed upon. Period. Period dot.
    50:39
    Also on this agreed upon terms of this item, the production timeline on this product is unclear because I know that Haggis is not great at estimating timelines. They've blown through timelines, and I will not ignore the fact. If anybody has a business agreement with me, They know that I will be honest with our customers. They're number one. I'm not going to sugarcoat a damn thing for any of these manufacturers if I don't agree with what they're doing. Like, there's no need for lying here. So, I put, it is unclear. The current estimate is sometime in 2024.
    51:19
    Sometime in 2024. We are currently sometime in 2024. All right. The third point of the terms, I heavily encourage people to email us prior to ordering anything if they had any questions or concerns at all. So, three points. It's non-refundable and it's non-transferable to other products. The production timeline is unclear. The current estimate is sometime in 2024. It's still an estimate, but sometime in 2024. And if you have any questions or concerns, please email me before you even make an order. Are those terms fair, Dennis?
    52:01
    Sure. Look, I want you to be honest, be harsh, even if you're friends with me. No, no, I understand. My hindsight is 20-20, so a little bit of it is unfair. Based off of the – so let me phrase it two ways. One, based off of what you have just listed, I do not think that given Haggis is still, by all accounts, in business, that it would be fair to demand a refund while it is still 2024. Because it was clearly expressed that the time estimate said sometime in 2024, and we are still sometime in 2024. Regardless of what the production counts have been for the first half of 2024. So based off of that, then I do not think. that there is grounds at this point to trigger the refund of the non-refundable deposit. What I do think, though, is that you should have had much clearer terms about what the trigger would be short of Haggis declaring whatever the Australian version of bankruptcy is, because how long can this sort of thing linger? What happens if it becomes a Dutch pinball situation where they continue to manufacture and try and act things out over a 10-year period? Sure. And people don't want to be locked in, and they were locked in with Dutch because they bought direct from Dutch. But, you know, Cointaker tried to work around that in the future on future orders by managing the money differently. So in that regard, just, you know, going beyond what you've just said, I'm just going to go ahead and opine now. I think, and maybe this is a good thing that I would think it was a good thing to suggest to you in the future, is to have some sort of timeline on just the rules of when refunds on non-refundable deposits do kick in based off of a time threshold.
    53:48
    100%. I agree. But I could see why you didn't do it in the sense that in that we see so many other companies where the delay that's gone on from the preorder of a Centaur revisited until now is completely in line with other established companies like CGC and other. Texas T&2. The weird, and it kind of, I mean, as a consumer, it pisses me off, but this length of delay that we've seen on Centaur, this is not unusual in this hobby. Yeah, it's not even a year yet. The thing that's causing the consternation is that everything coming out of Haggis suggests that they are in financial freefall. So they want you to refund because they are scared. But they are asking you to alter the terms of the deal. if the terms that everyone signed up to were exactly what you just read. Which absolutely they were, all documented. So if I were one of them, I would probably be emailing and going, Zach, I want information, like what's going on, what are you hearing about Haggis? I'm really concerned. But I would also be going in acknowledging I clearly expected to get the game in 2024. We're only halfway through the year. I don't have grounds, unless I know the company is out of business, to ask for anything until we're in 2025. Yes. That would be how I would approach it as a consumer. But, I mean, that's just how I would interpret based off of what you read to me. And the other thing that I think makes this messy is that we do not see, and people can argue all they want, I was trying to get ahead of any of this by issuing terms that allow people confidence that they will not lose their money. I was putting myself out there and my company out there to protect people. By doing so, I think I actually created a target for myself because I don't see dealers saying, hey, if this company fucks up and fucks you over, we're going to give you your money back. I don't see dealers doing that. And by not doing that, they've not had to deal with this kind of crap. I think that's a good point. But maybe the issue is to ask yourself, though, like, should you be listing this in the sense that, and this has come up in that thread that you told me to check out that you read some of those quotes from, in that legally, if Haggis is unable to deliver the product, and I'm now going to do my standard acknowledgement that I am not an attorney and nothing that I say on this podcast should be construed as legal advice. I not sure that you could refuse to give refunds if they go out like you would I would assume not knowing all the legal conditions because obviously you dealing with an Australian company you an American company what state you operate out of makes a difference yada yada yada All that being said, like, if they are unable to actually get you the product that you sold to someone, my understanding as a general rule would be you would be legally obligated to give refunds. So that you provide a term is somewhat irrelevant because legally, if they can't deliver the product, you can't take their money and evaporate it. If they would want to take a company to court for $1,000, yes, they could do that. I was trying to create a shortcut for people so that they could be rest assured that the motivation was to avoid fear. And it's not working. No, but that's because the fear is now – it worked at the time. But now everything Haggis is doing and everything we hear about them suggests that they are – we're out of the pandemic now, and they got even worse about building pinball. That's what's – I totally understand the fear. I would be terrified. I mean, I guess I wouldn't because I do believe I would get my $1,000 back from you in 2025. So I'd be annoyed because now I'm sitting here thinking – so maybe more annoyed than terrified. I'd be annoyed because I'd be sitting here in early July going, I am not getting my Centaur, and it sucks that I have $1,000 basically tied up that's not going to turn into anything, but I know I'm going to get it back. I'd rather have it earn in 4.9% interest in a savings account than having it sit in. Now, Haggis has all of these deposits, as I understand it. Yes, we pay them. You would be refunding out of your LLC funds. Correct, which is what I signed up for and what we're comfortable doing to help, support our customers in ways that we don't think everybody would. Because my understanding is that standard in pinball is that the deposits immediately get transferred because the companies are requiring the distributors to provide the deposits. I'm throwing it out there because some people might actually have the assumption that you're sitting there with dozens of orders and you're earning interest on their deposits, making money. Very good point.
    58:33
    That wasn't my understanding of how the industry worked, but you're confirming that it is not in the case of HACS. So those are the situations I kind of thought and maybe I assumed incorrectly, but I thought by the terms, sure, people would be upset, as I am too.
    58:50
    I'm just as upset, if not more, when I don't get information from a business agreement. Yeah, I'm pissed off too. I've made that very public now, and believe me, Haggis Pinball is the first that would tell you that they're very clear on how Flippin' Out feels and thinks about the current situation. but it's frustrating to see this ramped-up aggression, threats, and stuff like that. So that was the tough part for me because I'm like, I'm a big boy. I know what I signed up for. I knew that when I signed up a business partnership with any manufacturer, there is risk involved. That's what sets apart good businesses from bad. That's business 101. I get that. I knew it's a calculated risk. I knew what I was signing myself up for. That's why I put myself out there as I did. I thought it would be more accepted and appreciated than used as a weapon, but here we are. So I've got a couple options. Do I just ignore it because, you know, there's always going to be a handful of Internet assholes? I'm not doing anything wrong, so I'm following the term. Or do I reply to it? The hobbyist in me is like, no, you reply to it because if they're that frustrated, like, let them know where you're at. give them an update so that they can understand your line of thinking. So that's what I did. I don't see a ton of dealers in the pin side threads for very specific reasons, this being one of them. But yeah, I'm a hobbyist. I put myself out there. I said, look, hey everyone, I've not heard anything from Haggis for a while and continue to wait for updates and information like everybody else. We at Flippin' Out Pinball have made a timeline internally for August to address Centaur's revisited deposit situation if we didn't have any more updates about production. I'll pause there. That was the other thing. We already had a plan in place internally. Hey, if we still don't hear anything by August, we're going to reach out to these customers with some type of plan as to what we're going to do moving forward. Because even though the terms state all of 2024, I would want more information. So we planned on doing it in August, but with discussion on the social media forums, we thought, well, we'll expedite just a little bit now. But going on with what I said on Pennside formally, I said given the reactions here and the numerous false claims about myself and our business, we will make a formal update on Monday as to how we are handling the Haggis Pinball deposits. And I'm doing that here verbally on the Pinball Show, but also we'll be reaching out to those customers individually to offer some type of plan moving forward as well. I went on to say for clarification, we aren't happy about the process. I've already talked about that. And some people were claiming that we were still taking sales of Centaur Revisited, and they were pissed off about that. And then other people were like, really? They're still taking orders instead of doing the fucking homework themselves and realizing we haven't for, like, over six months, if not longer. They just piled on to, oh, what an asshole. I can't believe it. Fucking people.
    61:52
    So I made clarification that we closed sales of Centaur Revisited a long, long, long while ago. All right. I went on to say we thought that giving customers a guarantee of not losing their money should Haggis Pinball go under on day one was not only the right thing to do, but something that we did not see others in the industry offer. It appears that such a gesture actually did the opposite. However, we will continue to do the right thing in the industry when others will not, or even if we continue getting shit on for it. We're proud of the company we've built and all the customers that we have supported, even when it does cost us thousands to do so. I mean, nobody publicly talks about that. So back to the ongoing issue I went on to say, Monday we'll have a formal timeline for everyone to be made whole. We will not only uphold the terms that we made to our customers, but we'll be willing to break those terms in order to hopefully satisfy our customers. Thank you again to all those who have been decent, logical, and supportive throughout the process. And for those of you who aren't going to be happy, go play some pinball. All right. So I thought that would be good, right? It still pissed people off. People are still upset. Well, I don't know.
    62:59
    You were a little defensive in it. Sure. Yeah. I created terms. Those still weren't good enough, so I got to break terms, create more terms, so that you guys won't threaten to harm my company. Okay.
    63:11
    One individual said, okay, fine, I've deleted my bad review. I look forward to the update. Another person said, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Don't. Keep the pressure on him. His statement is not going to change how he's been treating you. What? The fuck is that? And this guy said, well, it's not easy hurting someone's livelihood, so I'm going to repost that bad review if Monday's update is just a pacifier. All right. And this gets to that interesting, I think interesting philosophical question that probably a lot of the listeners, who at least those that don't have money in on this and could be a little more objective on it, are probably asking, which is, you know, when is a slow-release game now an unrelease game sort of thing? Like, because I mentioned it earlier, but, I mean, we've seen instances where people, I mean, they waited a long time for Cactus Canyon revisited from CGC. Like, at what point do you have a legitimate claim that you have failed to fulfill me as a person who ordered CCR? Like, if other people are still getting the CCRs, does that reset? Like, if Haggis sent one centaur out to someone, does that reset the whole clock for everyone? Like, what are the. Exactly. And my point is there are no real rules on this. This is truly like philosophical sort of stuff on. But, again, this hobby has been there's no consistency. So I understand the pile. I understand the strategy. I understand the strategy of I'm mad. I don't care what I'm going to. I know it's a little sorry for anyone listening who has money in on this and is really concerned. I do. I do have sympathy for you. But you're altering the terms by not waiting through the end of 2024 per what's been described to me here. So you do a pile-on tactic in order to try and get the terms changed because your concern level is so high at this point that you want an out earlier than what you agreed to. So you do a pile-on because businesses bend on these sort of things. They will take action because they don't want to have bad reviews and all the rest of it. So this is a tactic we see all the time with social media. I've seen other pinball businesses have this happen to them on pin side. like suppliers who go on vacation and then people get mad that their product wasn't shipped two days after they ordered it and they throw a fit and the cycle repeats. But we are as a collector community, a hobbyist community, all over the board. You see people applauding Dutch Pinball and their decade-long process of getting people games.
    65:38
    And then we have this instance where we have another company that is clearly in financial trouble hasn't, just like Dutch, hasn't declared whatever their version of bankruptcy is. But in this case, it's not even been a year yet. So where's the reality on? And I thought Dutch should have – well, I knew Dutch didn't have the money to do the refunds. I know back in my Eclectic Gamers podcast – I don't know where we were. That was back before we did the pinball show. I remember saying that I thought the right answer was bankruptcy in that instance and then refunds of pennies on the dollar that ultimately got trickled out to all of the creditors. and people weren't going to get their full amounts. And maybe they were happier waiting a decade. But honestly, I think investment-wise, getting partial payments back and investing in them was probably going to be a better deal than waiting. But it is what it is. My rambly point, Zach, is that it's just we're in this weird twilight zone area where Haggis isn't officially dead. So your point that they've not failed is valid. But all the warning signs are is that they are dying. There's a good chance. That they are dying. They are not. Nothing they are doing is alleviating any concerns. Obviously, you don't know anything different than anyone else, as you've conveyed. You've not been hearing from them. So you can't comfort. So everyone's just like they are. And it sounds like this from all these the posts I read today. A lot of people are going, well, but we all know they're dead. So you do. That's what they're pushing. Is this group? Well, no, we all can. Consensus wise, we have decided that they are. They're over. Now that they are, as a group, we've already voted, they're done, so you need to return this immediately. Right. Yes. That's the tough part. The problem with misinformation, in my opinion, is when you do that, then you're putting out information that then people will not take the time to vet, and they will use that to drum up their next push or their next recommendation. So they'll amp it up based on that aspect, and it's just not. So that's where it gets really tough, and that's what is damaging to a company, even if the company didn't do anything. That's the tough part here. The other thing is, people, I'm smart enough to know, this isn't solely a haggis pinball thing. This isn't solely a distributor thing. I'm smart. I might not be a smart man, Dennis, But when you get the same five people that target me for whatever unconscious things they have, whatever issues they have that they haven't dealt with, when they're jumping in here and they're jumping in something else two months before and they're the same people, like some of this is just targeted. It's just it is what it is. I get it. So I know people are always going to target me. And I accept the fact. I will say this before we talk about my solution to all this and everything. I do accept the fact that when you build a brand or I build a brand such as the ones that I have, when they get to a certain level, they're always going to take on different perceptual ranges.
    68:49
    I'm smart enough to understand that. It doesn't feel good to read public lies created to harm, even if it's subconscious or anything. It does suck. but many times the sheer just, I guess, I'm not trying to be mean, but like ignorance, sheer ignorance or just influential negative emotions, they do scream the loudest. So I'm like, I just, I got to keep working. I got to do what's right always because if I'm going to be up on that stage with the bright lights on me, I got to always do what's right. Just remind myself there are a lot of assholes on the Internet. That requires little work. That's why there's so many of them on the Internet. A little work. It's like this tiny, cheap, watered-down taste of attention that they get. So congratulations to those asshats out there. You know who you are. Pat yourself on the back. There's your attention. And I'll see you on the next issue that, you know, that flipping out covers or something. I'm used to that. I do appreciate the individuals who are level-headed in there and speak some sense. Even a shout out to a listener of the show Blueberry Johnson who doesn't always agree with me But I think they sum it up Very well He says in regard to somebody saying Why are we concerned about Zach Saying why do people think Zach won't honor these refunds Like there's nothing In the past that doesn't suggest He's at the apex of pinball distribution So why are we Second guessing him now They went on to say this is from the Kaiser 82 I really want to give support to this individual. This person says that they are so certain that I will refund deposits when the time comes that they're going to donate $1,000 to the National Alliance of Mental Illness. I don't even know how to feel about pushing that. But you know what? If it's $1,000, go into NAMI and line in Sheet's name once customers are made whole, whenever that may be, and $2,000 if they're not. He will post his receipt here. So that's money going to a charity that I deeply, deeply support. So great there. But Blueberry Johnson goes on to respond to the Kaiser saying, there's no reason to think that Zach wouldn't. It just seems that some customers, and perhaps others, as I was alluding to, have decided they want refunds earlier than the terms stipulated by their agreement with Zach, and they're going to post negative messages and reviews about his business if he doesn't acquiesce to their demands.
    71:22
    100%. That deserves a thumbs up. That's where we're at. So it sucks. I don't want anybody to have to wait to see what the hell's going on with Haggis. Everybody's frustrated with it. Where's my game? We've seen this before. So formally, to our customers with Centaur deposits, we'll be reaching out to each and every one of them for optional new terms if they see fit, which include the following. Flipping out pinball because of all of this and everybody's unease and all of that stuff, we promised we'd make it right. It's not quick enough for a lot of people, so we are going to make it even faster for you. We will provide you immediate transfer of the agreed-upon non-transferable deposit to a different product that we have. Immediately, you can take advantage of that if you would like to. Those customers can transfer to a topper, art blades, a game, whatever you want to. If you want to transfer that non-transferable deposit over to something else, we're fine with that. You can do that immediately. We'll talk and figure that all out. Or another option, flipping out pinball, we will provide you a full refund of the agreed-upon non-refundable deposit within the next three months here. We won't have to wait until 2025. Anytime between now and three months, we will give you your full deposit of that non-refundable deposit back if you so wish to do so there. Those customers will let us know. Or I guess there is a third option technically. For those who kind of want to ride it out and see what is going on, then we'll continue the following terms. And then once 2025 hits, at that point, anytime thereafter, if you want a refund on that non-infrontable, you can have it. If you want to transfer it to a different product, you can do that. So once, I guess what I'm saying, Dennis, once January 1st hits, then you can do whatever you want. Just let us know. It'd be basically the original terms. Yes. No, I guess you never spelled out that a transfer was an option. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So at that point, whatever your heart desires, if you want to continue waiting, your deposit's safe with us until you want it back, and then we'll issue it back to you within the week if you want to transfer it to something else. So what I'm saying is formally we're trying to do the right thing, which we've always wanted to do, And we feel like we set a standard. We try to set a standard for the industry to do the right thing in distribution, especially in times like these. You've got to. Or you're doing bad business. You're just going to go under. So we're getting out in front of that even more so to support those who are very, very worried. The threats and stuff suck, but it is what it is. It's part of the business. So, yeah, if you want to transfer it, you can transfer it immediately. If you want your deposit back, we'll give you your deposit back within the next couple months here. or if you want to write it down and see what happens. I think so overall, in your opinion, Dennis, fair, unfair, just, unjust? I think it will probably alleviate the concerns. I'm not a business person. I don't have the head space for it. I wouldn't promote it, but anyone who chose to alter the conditions without the company having failed than without having gotten to the end of the year. I would personally probably blacklist and never sell to after this. It sucks because we live in a different society than we did years back. But I think it gives them what they want, and it gets you out of having to deal with the continued fallout from it.
    74:56
    It's probably the right answer just to move beyond it. Yeah, and I can guarantee you this. This is a full guarantee. Those who have received the benefits of us as customers will continue to support us because it doesn't make sense not to. Those who have not done business with me, who don't like me, will continue to have some issue and will not like me on whatever is going forward. That was juicy, Dennis. That was nice. I don't know. It was really long. Can I put it behind the paywall? Oh, yeah.
    75:28
    How great would that? People, the torches would be lit at that point. not just pitchers. Well, this isn't a flipping out pinball podcast. I don't work flipping out. Yes, it is. It absolutely is. This is all master manipulation. You're a victim of it. I've been manipulated. I didn't put a deposit down on this stuff. You don't put deposits down. You made that very clear. That's true. Do you want to know why? Because I don't want to have to deal with stuff like this. I don't want to deal with the stress. I don't want to wait until 2025 either, but I would be morally obligated to, and I didn't want to do it. Absolutely. Yeah, I had the same thing with Spooky when I went to TNA. I ain't giving no pre-order money. I like that some of the people in that forum are like, wait, you guys are crucifying Zach? I would love to have ordered from him and knowing I'm getting my money back rather than going direct. Because I have no clue if I'll ever see a game or my money back from Huggies. I have no clue. Yeah, they're in a tough boat. That's an interesting thing. That sucks. But we've seen this with other companies where it's, you know, we saw it with Highway and we saw it almost with Dutch. We saw it. You could argue even with Skit B that that was set up in such a way that I'm not sure any aspect of it was legal. Well, you know, the crazy thing is, too, a lot of people call me nuts here, but business-wise, when I signed up to this, I knew if I'm paying Haggis Pinball with the funds from customers and they are nonrefundable, and they told me they're nonrefundable, to me mentally, there is a chance that the company goes under and I lose my money.
    76:59
    Sure. I'm well aware of that, and I took on that risk, and I probably wouldn't chase after them and try to have international legal – I'm a big boy. I know what I signed up for. I don't know Australian bankruptcy, but if it works akin to American bankruptcy, then if they end up formally going under, just the volume of creditors would mean they would do it for creditor protection, and you would join that list of creditors. Sure. I don't know where you end up in the rank in Australia on that because here in the U.S., the different types of creditors have different priorities. Absolutely. Like employee pay comes up on top for obvious reasons. So given that, you know, you might get pennies on the dollar back. You might see a little bit of your deposit. See, I was raised to like, you know what you're getting yourself into. Like if you're going to make your bed. Well, that's why, as you noted, you did the terms to try and bring comfort to people. It's just there's a few of them that are so uncomfortable with what Haggis is saying, or more accurately not saying at this point, that they're afraid. That's how I would describe it. Their fear is really high. Some of them might be more financially strapped than buying new pinball games would suggest, and perhaps they desperately need the money too. Yeah, yeah, and that helps, that helps. Well, honestly, I don't think it's that most people desperately need their $1,000 back. I think it's just fear that this is a lost cause and they don't want it tied up. And full transparency, too, for better or worse. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but there came a time where we sold all of our Centaur spots and I could have purchased more and re-upped. But, again, it's business. It's a calculated risk. So I didn't feel as comfortable going in for additional units as I did with something like I did with Barrels of Fun. with their labyrinth product, you know, went through those products rather quickly, sales-wise, felt comfortable enough to make additional purchases, pre-order purchases there, went through those. But at that point, I'd seen the product, put my hands on the product, started feeling, but, you know, so, yeah, I didn't re-up anymore. Because I didn't want to, I knew that this was a potential situation. I understand. The thing that I guess I don't really, I guess maybe I quasi understand it. I probably don't. I probably just think I do, is I'm deeply confused as to why Damien isn't doing more to communicate with the distributor. I'm assuming the entire distributor network is in the dark. If you haven't heard in weeks anything at all from him, and I would think that part of the effort here would be, because they clearly aren't busy building machines, would be to try and shore up the confidence of the distributor network. And I don't know if it's just he is so in over his head or he just doesn't have a business background, but it's like it almost is I think he's inadvertently self-sabotaging what little Hope Haggis has by this just go totally opaque approach. And I find it very odd, but he's definitely not doing himself any favors. And if they're still trying to find another investor like they kind of conveyed they were looking for, actually I think they explicitly conveyed they were looking for, back when they mentioned that sort of restructuring thing, it's like, I mentioned this, I think it was on Eclectic Gamers. I'm far too nice to say it here, but I'll say it here now.
    80:35
    I would never invest in that company with him still being in charge. It would be, part of the terms would be you would now lose control of this company because you clearly didn't run it right. Well, that brings up an interesting point, too. Part of our decision making, this has happened internally for Flippin' Out Pinball a couple months ago, just us trying to make sense of all this. We had to think of, well, okay, so if they are still making fathoms, though, even if they were to transfer, when's that going to be? That's a mess. And then also, okay, let's say that, you know, Haggis Pinball tells us, all right, the first 10 are done. Send us full payment of those. Then we're in another situation. Then we're making another business decision that could be risky. So even if we got to that point, how comfortable am I sending 10 full payments of Centaurs at this point? Yeah, it's tough. And that's what I had forgotten about the part about. I think it was Blueberry in the thread who had mentioned that the recent building of a few additional Fathoms had been noted somewhere. I think maybe some of the stuff was from NAP Arcade. I think so. And so it's like that's where it gets extra despite. And I do sympathize with people who are like Haggis is done. They're just acting like they're not done. But every time they trickle out more games, what's anyone supposed to? Again, it's like Dutch. We saw it with Dutch. I said Dutch was done like every year, eight years in a row. And I was wrong every time. It's all interesting. I'm in this industry because I find it engaging and I love it. So when shit like this happens, it sucks for me, but it's still learning. We're still growing as an industry. I think this is a terrible business, and I'm glad I don't work in it. I fucking live for it, man. I like helping people, but customer-facing stuff like this, no, no, no, no, no. I don't like losing money, but I'm like, honestly, this is me. I'm crazy. I'm like, if any dealer can be put in this situation, I would rather it be me because I know I'll do the right thing. I know I will, even if I hurt them. The other ones will be made too legally, so it's fine no matter what. This brings up this. What responsibilities does the manufacturer have versus the dealer versus the consumer? We've talked a little bit about this, but so you think in the future terms should be, you know, how long are these nonrefundable actually nonrefundable? I agree with that, and I did learn that out of this. And you've told me that before. So moving forward, if there is something that concerns me from the front end, we'll be putting terms on that. So that's good. See, positive out of this situation.
    83:15
    But also more discussion philosophically with any industry or hobby. Isn't a deposit by default, Dennis, nonrefundable? Isn't that the purpose of what a deposit serves? My understanding is yes. Why have you changed the definition of that in this industry? What good is a deposit if it's not non-refundable? Like, what the fuck is it?
    83:39
    Anybody I've talked to outside of pinball is like, well, what do you mean? Like, if I put a deposit on something, I know that I'm subject to, I could lose out on that. If I change my mind, tough shit. Yeah, I lost my deposit. No, that's where my real estate, anything. My general understanding is you put down a deposit to convey serious interest. And the value of it is that if you walk away, they get to keep the deposit because you wasted their time. That's like the deal. And decisions have to be made. Well, yeah. And again, it's that same. In every other thing I've ever seen, I've never really heard people say non-refundable deposits. Deposits were, other than like depositing money in a bank, deposits were by definition for a product as essentially a partial upfront payment that is non-refundable. And if you walk away, no hard feelings, but the deposit's gone.
    84:29
    People get upset with that a lot. Kind of like companies that have return policies, but they have restocking fees that are embedded on them. And you bring back the product that wasn broken and you brought it back because you didn want it anymore Some places used to do restocking fees So a lot of consumers and hobbyists will then say Dennis why do dealers even have deposits Like, they should do away. No dealer should have deposits. That would be the argument. No dealer should have any deposits anymore. That's bullshit. We don't want any more deposits. Is that fair? Well, I think the issue that's come up is if you didn't run on a deposit model, and this is, again, I'm making assumptions because I'm not a distributor, and I don't work at a manufacturer, but with manufacturers requiring non-refundable, I guess I have to qualify that, non-refundable deposits from their distributors to get in on the games, then you would have to just keep a certain amount of liquid capital that's completely based solely off of the demand and interest levels on any given game. So since you're really just the conduit for the game itself, The logical step is to transfer that burden to the consumer. So the nonrefundable deposit, they pay for because you had to pay it to the manufacturer. And if you decide you don't want the game, the manufacturer doesn't give you a deposit back. I've been on the wrong end of that. Believe me. Yeah, I've heard about that. So given that, it's just a, you know, it's the partial portion that's, it's the same for every, you know, I'm not aware of any distributors that take a higher deposit than what the deposit is that goes to the manufacturer. So it's really just a pass-through of the non-refundable deposit that they require. Yes. But so you think there should be a deposit system or should not? I mean, after hearing – I see the argument against. Yeah, but I just don't – I don't see how a lot of businesses – I don't see how a lot of manufacturers – I don't see how a lot of anything really operate without – if you can't pay for everything, like, initially up front, And who's going to want to do that? Well, and if you can't produce the product immediately, that's the big key here is timeline of production. I think it's too hard of a system to do without deposit. In fact, I worry it would cost more if there weren't deposits. So I'm going to be pro-deposit. I think the whole system is relying on it. And I don't know of a – it's not the most elegant solution, but I think it's better than the alternatives that are coming to my mind. I completely agree. I've looked at it from every angle. And ultimately, this industry would look significantly different without a deposit type of system. And it all stems back to, if you look into the minute details of everything, it all stems back to time of production of product. That's what messes everything up. If more people were like a Stern Pinball, we could probably have this industry run on no deposits. The deposits would then just be there for the looky-loos and the ones that are wasting time. But this is more so. A lot of people perceive the deposit system in this industry to be such, but really it's much more than that. So, yeah, when you get down to the detail, it is the limited availability. It is a lot of these companies, especially when they're starting out, whether they should or not, those deposits go into stuff too. They rely on those deposits. Dealers have to be really careful. Dealers relied on deposits, you know, the paying Peter, the Paul. I would have trouble sleeping at night if I was doing that. I've always structured my business in a way that I don't rely upon that, and I don't take too big of bites out of anything, because at the end of the day, if shit hits the fan like this, I can confidently still support and still run my business. But, yeah, at the end of the day, deposit systems make sense because of how long it takes for some of these products to be developed and produced. So it's not always fun, but it is necessary.
    88:21
    Man, I need a smoke, and I don't even smoke. Hey, Dennis, what about Jersey Jack pinball? I know they like to take the profits. Okay, so I wanted to bring up Jersey Jack pinball because I made a mistake during the last episode. You cleared it up somewhat for those who listen to the Eclectic Gamers podcast, but I wanted to formally do it here. A big swing and a miss by me on my analysis. I assumed that JJP did not make all 1,000 Elton John CEs. I didn't see how they could have sold nearly as many to make all 1,000. I was wrong. We have received good information to support the fact that they have or are in the process of creating all 1,000 Elton John collector edition machines, which is fantastic and in need of congratulatory messages from myself because I was just plain wrong. I didn't think they'd sold it because, to me, I knew they didn't sell all 1,000, Dennis and listener, but I thought, well, if you don't sell all of them, then you have to cut it off at a certain point because then why take the risk of making all 1,000 if you're not close to it? So I know they didn't sell all 1,000, but I thought if you're going to build all 1,000, you've got to think that they're probably going to sell pretty well up to the 1,000 point, and I didn't have that confidence, and I was wrong. So, yes, they did build all 1,000 Elton John Cs, which really goes back to show you how we perceive things. And even if one game seems like it's selling really, really well, and another game not as much, it could be deceptive. It really could. Which makes me think that they made probably at least 1,000 platinum petitions. They could have. Dude, that's a lot of games. Sure. 2,000 units of Elton John? That would be a success. The buzz has been a strong one. Well, yeah. This buzz on the game has been very, very good. It's solely been the pricing. It was a delayed buzz. It's the pricing that's been the issue. Well, yes, there was a bit of a delay because people needed to play it because the theme, well-known and generally not polarizing, wasn't a top theme for a lot of people. But delayed buzz oftentimes is still significantly under that numbers-wise of an initial buzz. Well, and I personally am skeptical without a price reduction that they'll ultimately move all 1,000 of them, but I don't know. Who knows? So that's that Chicago Gaming Company. When Hogwarts Legacy comes out and the prices go up. Oh, jeez. Then maybe Elton looks like a good deal. 2025. Legacy. Chicago Gaming Company. Speaking of, hello. So they emailed us dealers this past week with a production update, a formal one, saying that Pulp Fiction LEs, their current goal is to be shipping Pulp Fiction LEs over the course of late summer, like we had said, September, but also into October and early November. So I'm thinking they're projecting all of the LEs to be produced and shipped between September and November, likely the latter. They're going to be switching over to international production soon. So they're going to be doing a lot of the SEs and SEDs with the dollar bill acceptor, Coindor. They're going to be doing those internationally.
    91:32
    Probably, as we're speaking right now, they won't be shipping any SEs here domestically until probably after the LEs. If they don't ship in July. So in a nutshell, LEs are coming September, October, November-ish. And then they'll probably go back to another batch of SEs in December, January, if I had to pass. That kind of lines up for a March announcement for something else. Yeah, that's true. And how are we going to pay all these people this week? We've got to give them something good. We have had a hard-hitting show thus far. I want to hit even harder, Dennis.
    92:06
    It's Terry time. Come on. Now, this last week, Straight Down the Middle did a video, phenomenal, by the way, if you haven't seen it. It was the top ten greatest pinball machine themes that have yet to be made. Wow. You know how to get those clicks. A poor this or that. Clickbait? Did it do better than this or that? It has already surpassed it. Oh, my God, guys. I know. That's what I said. Stupid. It came out over two weeks later and already surpassed it. Really? It surpassed the Jaws review. I'm going to tell you guys because you don't know. And I know I'm not involved right now in the middle. Let me tell you something. Every time I talk about this or that with Zach, he goes, Dennis, the numbers really just aren't worth the effort. They're not that good. And I'm like, people love this or that. And then when he posts, what do you all say? You say you want this or that. And then you let some scrub Bush league level dumb topic like the top ten things. I mean, Zach has privately, I'm revealing everything. Zach is privately behind the scenes, told me how stupid he thinks it is when all podcasts, like if I have a TV podcast that comes out and all we do is talk about like dream themes and like, God, there's no content. Here you go. Talk about themes. That's when you're scraping the barrel. We're scraping the barrel. Exactly. Here you are, barrel fishing, this dumb ass topic, and you all lap it up like a saucer of milk and you be in the panther.
    93:31
    Absolutely. I am ashamed of all of you. In fact, I wasn't going to watch this. However, I got freaking tagged because they wanted to hear me and get my dander up. So that's what we'll paywall, my dander being up. Yes. So we're going to paywall that. We're going to go even further into it by saying basically the feedback that we received in the comments. And, by the way, more comments on that top ten video than the Jaws review and the This or That combined. Jeez. They love it. So, we're going to take that, and we're going to discuss it further, because a lot of people said, wait a minute. Toy Story's been made? And I'm like, ah, no, it hasn't. Spoiler alert, we did list in the top ten things yet to be made. We listed Toy Story, because the argument is Toy Story has not been. Toy Story 4 has been made, but Toy Story has not been made. To go even further, because you can't argue that one, I'm right. But what you could argue, we put Mario in there, Super Mario Brothers. And we also put Back to the Future in there, claiming that they haven't been made. And boy, that got the dander up above everybody. These idiots don't know anything about pinball. Daddy East made Back to the Future. Golly, made Super Mario. God, you guys suck. I could argue, though, that, oh, man, is that really what pinball is today, is what we know it as? The 21st century? Immersive pinball with actual rules and assets, worlds under glass, versus ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You could throw a picture of Rocky on a back glass and call it a Rocky machine, but is there really Rocky pinball? I don't think so. So Dennis and I are going to be getting his zander up even further, discussing and arguing between if you can compare earlier pinball machines like Solid States to pinball machines made in the 21st century. Is it apples and oranges, or are they all still pinball? What's similar? What's different? What pisses Dennis off? So go listen. All you've got to do, if you're not an official member of the pinball show, just go to patreon.com slash the pinball show. Sign up. It's only $10 a month. It's a minimum. You can sign up there. It helps support the show. You get exclusive content like that beauty of the gold that we weave in that. And you can also get private Discord conversations. I said private. What a joke. If people aren't sharing it with others, then we have some interaction in there, a chat forum there. You can bump up to the $25 Nordman level. And you get additional stuff such as a monthly hangout with us. You get decals. You get to pick topics, all kinds of stuff. Then you can go up to the supreme being of the $100 a month screaming go club members. Love you all. Then you get the juicy private one-on-one correspondence with Dennis and I giving you the juice. Just please don't share it. I'm going to get in trouble. Please don't share it. Dennis don't like getting in trouble. Plus, you get like a paywall polo. You get to come on the show. You get all kinds of stuff. So sign up today. Patreon.com slash The Pinball Show. You're going to want to hear it. And come on. Help support. which is what we're doing here. If you like what we're doing, if you're listening, show it. Let's talk about Pedretti Gaming. Pedretti Gaming, did you know that Flippin' Out Pinball receives our Funhaus remake classic and Midnight Limited Edition games this last week? Yes. It's a looker, isn't it? It's creepy. This one surprised me. I've never been a huge Funhaus fan, but I respected it. Like, I respect some 11 games more so than others. I respected it, and it has one of the coolest toys ever. So, ultimately like it, but it's never been a huge, I don't know, the rules just aren't, like if I want rules like that, I play Whirlwind. I'm not going to lie. This isn't helping my sales, but I mean, I think Whirlwind's a superior game over it. But it's fun, it has more character. I was surprised, first off, when I seen the game, the 2.0 thing, it's a fucking stunning game. It is a looker like no other. So that was good. And then the 2.0, man, it gives me a reason to want to play Funhaus. I don't really need to play Funhaus if it's just the conventional rules. Now, the Classic does have the auto plunger, which helps, and it's got a screen, which is cool. But the 2.0 with actual modes in it and stuff, still going to work on some things. But, man, you'll be hearing more once there's official gameplay video out. We're going to be doing some streams and some content as well. But pleasantly surprised and based on, like, the build quality, everything I've seen so far, I'm going in a little bit more on this Funhaus remake, both as a hobbyist and as a business. So take that for what you will. Spooky Pinball, did you know they're moving their game assembly to another facility? Again, yes. Another facility. We were in that facility. Greg and I were straight in the middle doing their featurettes and the sizzle reels in their last round of games. That was actually an empty facility But we used that space to do Set up a studio On location kind of thing And exciting stuff over there They're going to have even more room And they're going to keep a lot of their old assembly stuff And the other stuff I think they do a lot of printing and things over there Shipping and stuff over there So the new place will do Congratulations Spooky Pinball And I'll be up there soon hopefully To come hang out That's what I'm planning on I want to come hang out with spooky people in the next couple months.
    99:02
    American Pinball. Sale, sale, sale. $500 off. Every single American Pinball game except for barbecue. What? Still? Since July 4th, Terry sale. It's time to sell barbecue. Why couldn't American Pinball go all in with Terry being their spokesperson for this weekend? They would have got more sales. They would have. I don't know if David Fix knows about Terry. Oh, Fixie. We got to talk.
    99:27
    Speaking of talk, what did you last hear from him about? Bag up. Bag it up. I'll put it in reverse, Fixie.
    99:40
    Should have put that in reverse about two years ago. Oh, there it is. I wouldn't give this. I know you wouldn't because you sell their games, but I don't owe anyone anything. What you doing, Fixie?
    99:55
    Oh, watch. Cuphead's going to come out and blow everybody's socks off. Or it won't. I've got to thank some people. You've got to thank some people. The Pinball Show wants to thank formally our Screaming Goat Club members.
    100:08
    Man, Rodney, we can't say thank you enough. And happy 4th of July to you, my friend. Rodney's in the States. So, yeah, happy 4th of July.
    100:19
    If the Bobcat was a firework, what type of firework would he be? Aren't there fireworks called Bobcats? Oh, there might be. Whistling buttholes Maybe A bobcat It sounds like Oh I'm thinking black cat Black cat No but the panther We gotta hold on I would think a bobcat Is more firecracker-y Oh shoot that fucker Yeah I guess Go attack your wife Maybe it's more rocket form Are you a big firework person? Not really Do you like fireworks? I mean I watch them I'm close to the price I haven't set them off in years You know what Why don't you come Come to Evansville, Indiana No You know me My personality I overspend on fireworks. What a shock. That's right. I'll let you set them off.
    101:01
    I don't want to. I don't need to run away from them anymore. My knees. They don't work. I want to thank Steve for your continued support as a Screaming Goat Club member. You are our bumblebee. Bumblebee! You've got to have some bumblebees. Those are the ones, the novelty ones that when you light, they're almost like a goat pooping or something like that. Like, zzzz. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen those. Spin. Zzzz. Yes. That's what they'd be. Rob, thank you for the support. Also known here at the Pinball Show as the Panther.
    101:37
    I can see 60% of the time it being a dud. 100% of the time. So maybe rum and candle. Yes. Where it fires off inside the tube still. Yep. Then you drop it and then all of a sudden just a gun. Thank you, Frank, for the continued support and happy Fourth of July to you. Nothing screams American pride like the sound of a screaming eagle that is actually a falcon.
    102:03
    Yeah. Yes, people, I knew that our screaming eagle sounds actually a falcon. So, thank you so much for the support, Frank. You would be a screaming rocket for sure. Like a Saturn rocket? Those come in clusters. Yes, and they chase people. They're the most dangerous of the fireworks. Maybe it is because it's a swooper of a falcon. And maybe I would have thought it would be more. Thank you, David, for the continued support of the Shaker motor. I would have thought the Shaker motor would have been more dangerous if it's red trim.
    102:36
    Well, as Shaker motors go, I'm trying to think of the most shaky sort of. Maybe if you got the M80, though, like the biggest boom. Boom. So the quarters stick a dino. That's right. That's what they set off around here. Put a bucket over it. See if it can fly. Yeah. Thank you, Joe, for the continued support. the fox. What's a sneaky firework?
    102:58
    The snakes? The snakes. Just don't get the glow worm ones because you burn your hand when you think you can pick them up.
    103:08
    The fox. Snakes are very sneaky and they're hard to light. They are hard to light. Especially if you don't have one of those long lighters. Yes. You need a fire stick. You can't use punks to start snakes. You have to have some open flame. You get that bit that you're just holding and it's burning your finger, but it's like, it's close. It's almost there. The fox. The fox is sneaky. We'll give him the snake. I don't know if that's right. But, Charlie, thank you. It's the bell of the pinball show. Maybe the lanterns that float away and then set the forest on fire. I don't know what the bell would be. Yeah, I'm good with that. A lot of people like those. I just see them flying off and I'm like, this isn't safe at all. This is like the most not safe. They're so cool, though. Like, it's a cool lantern. And then they're like, what's in it? A candle. Like, no, you can't. No, don't. I like the parachutes that come down. Because you're like, I got it. As a kid, yeah, I loved to set the parachutes off at the farm and catch them. They're running through fences. They're picking up hot molten army men. You got the glowing parachutes. They were on fire. And you couldn't catch them at the base. You had to catch them on the parachute. Which one of our kids grabbed a sparkler where they shouldn't? and still have scars. They will not touch it. I think it's her oldest daughter. She will not touch a sparkler.
    104:30
    Thank you so much for the support, William, our resident dude. Also, dude, Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian American, please. I was going to say he would have been the sparkler because he could just abide with one, wave it around gently. You know what the dude is? He's one of those. With a cool light in his other hand. Throw the poppets on the ground. Yeah, you know, they're tame, man. They ain't hurting nobody. What's your favorite firework? I like the ones that, they're like little rockets, but they surprise you. So they make a lot of noise going into space. So it's not like a mortar where it goes, and then, so these would go, and they take off from the ground up. I don't care what they do once they get up there. Well, visually, I always preferred mortars, though we never used those growing up. They were too expensive. God, they're so expensive. Even if you set up a little mortar board and you're like, all right, team, y'all got your lives. Here's what we're going to do. You're going to aim to get four lit and we're going to run. Ready, set, go. Jimmy, Jimmy, come on. Don't try for the fifth one. And Jimmy does every time.
    105:39
    I don't even have a Jimmy in my family. I don't. Email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com if you have a dumbass Jimmy that always presses his luck for lighting too many all at once. sign up to the Pinball Show Club membership today to support the show. Reminder, we've got that monthly happy hour hangout. Last month was fantastic. It went long again. I got drunk. It was a good time. My shirt stayed on, though. What did we talk about last time? I forget. It was good, though.
    106:08
    All right, that's been a hell of a show, Dennis. I'm full. I'm tired. I need to go prepare. Nicole's got a Fourth of July party.
    106:18
    Oh, wow. I don't, why? I just, the older I get, I just don't want these things. She's a social butterfly. She's a festival thing. You've got to let her flutter. She's like, just because you don't want to be around people doesn't mean I don't, damn it. Dennis, where can people catch you after the 4th of July? They can email me at collectedgamerspodcast.gmail.com. They can't catch me anywhere because I'm not a Pokemon. You can email us, thepinballshow at gmail.com. I look over the – we don't get too many emails anymore, probably because we're not great at responding to them. But still, you can email us. If it's interesting enough, we'll put it on the show. There's your challenge right there. Oh, and what's that? Oh, there's not Pinball Market Trans. Look, the big, girthy episode. Do we always need Pinball Market Trans, Dennis? No. Go watch Straight Down the Middle. Follow, like, and subscribe to that as well. And the Flippin' Out Pinball. They're the sponsor of this show. When I buy my pinball, say bye-bye from Flippin' Out. From Topper Shop, play TV, I've got it figured out. Flippin' Out, figured out. When I take a pinball, I think Flippin' Out. Flippin' Out, figured out. When I buy, buy, buy, I buy from Flippin' Out. Buy, buy, buy. And remember, everybody, we do trade-in, so trade in a pitchfork, get a pinball topper.
    107:43
    We're so proud of what we're doing. But we'll keep on pushing to give you even more and more. That's our commitment. The product showcase this week, any guess as to what it is? Stintar.
    107:53
    Ouch, fuck it, ouch. You chose to step on the rake. I nearly laid it there. I burned my hand on a sparkler, and you gave me an alcohol-soaked rag. I'm just saying, there might be a few openings for people. Oh, my God. My time. You're all the dice, folks. God. Just be sure to read the terms and conditions.
    108:25
    You just make up what you want anyway. Shit. All right. Product showcase this week is the Jaws topper. How could it not be? Such an exquisite addition. The crowning jewel of any pinball machine is the OEM topper. I like that. I've actually changed my mind on that topper. No, you haven't. I feel it coming. I'm looking behind me right now. No. What's he going to do? I mean, I now know, based off of that topper, how they would do the art approach if they had Goonies for Sloth.
    108:59
    Leave Chewbacca Jesus alone. So mean. We have all kinds of stuff in stock. We've been, oh, my God. We can't even do shop videos anymore, I don't think. It's going to be coming to an end here soon I got feedback from Apparently some other dealers Are upset about those videos And have like made lightly veiled threats That they're going to make life A lot harder for our business If we continue with them So those might be stopping as well This industry is so great They don't like that we're advertising That games aren't just sold in Indiana They don't like that they're going to Kansas or Washington or New York. As long as it's a stateside, that's always been allowed by most of the companies, I thought. Oh, absolutely. I don't think there was any rule. Like, the manufacturers aren't upset, are they? This is just another deal. Manufacturers are encouraging. Like, oh, my God, please. Like, any way you can engage with a customer, and you're informing them. Like, manufacturers have been loving those shop videos. But the other dealers, some other dealers, they're not very happy. Yay, Pinball 2024. Buy some stuff from Flippin' Out Pinball. We've got stuff to sell, and we'll support it. How about that? Buy an arcade. I played that Godzilla VR arcade. Holy shit. Played that this last weekend. It was the first time I played it. Now, it costs $8 a play, which is absurd. But, wow. VR gaming is really cool whenever it's physical, too. So, like, haptic motor movement and feedback in the guns and stuff. It's like, whew, we're getting somewhere with that shit. That was cool. Caught my breath, like scaling up and down a building. Wow. I can't wait until they have the Hawk 2 version.
    110:48
    Flippin' Out with Friends. Check out Joel. He took a week off for work purposes, but he's bagging at them again. I believe this week with Joel's Premium with Topper.
    110:58
    And Flippin' Out Shop videos. Check those out. We're here. Just continue. Sure. Follow, like, and subscribe to all of that, too, honestly, just because we're going to be doing some giveaways. And that kind of stuff helps us. Like, if you thumb us up or follow us on Instagram, on YouTube, on Facebook, on TikTok, I can't thank you enough because it super, super does help. So please, please consider doing that if you haven't already. Dennis, can you teach these people something? Probably not for this episode. Oh, man. I mean. They've learned enough. Well, they have learned a lot. I just started thinking the biggest thing they could do is to go ahead and I would normally point them to whatever your straight down the middle email addresses. I honestly don't know it. I don't either. Yeah. So you can email the pinball show at gmail.com because that checks that. And I think straight down the middle might need some more topic suggestions. Trying to think of other like really hard hitting things you could do like the best pinball machines of 2024 so far. Oh, let's do them. I like those. And maybe the best TV show dream themes, followed by the best movie dream themes, followed by the best book over movie dream themes. Video games for themes. Yes. Will they work for pinball, question mark? Yeah. Number four will amaze us.
    112:18
    Get them the ideas. Can you get to number eight without turning off the video? Everyone will disagree with these takes. That's right. Do not watch this video. Best ice cream flavors for pinball. Oh, my God, that's galactically awesome. And always practice safe pinball. And when you find yourself in a bind and logic and common sense just plain don't work, ask the person just to back up. Never forget, back it up, Terry. God bless the USA.