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The Pinball Show Ep 102: Let It Go

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 27m·analyzed·Jun 7, 2022
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Stern shipping updates, JJP Toy Story rumors, and Elwin's controversial tournament walkoff analyzed.

Summary

The Pinball Show Episode 102 covers Stern production updates (Godzilla Premiums shipping, Elvira toppers arriving in limited batches), speculation about Jersey Jack Pinball's next game (rumored to be Toy Story with only LE and CE models), and analysis of Keith Elwin's mid-tournament concession at the World Championships. The hosts also discuss facility renovations, Deep Root's cryptic website messages, and various industry updates from manufacturers.

Key Claims

  • Godzilla Premiums shipping out; next run scheduled for July

    high confidence · Zach Minney stated shipments are occurring with another run in July

  • Elvira toppers arrived in limited batch—only 10 of 50 backordered units shipped

    high confidence · Zach reported receiving 20% of backordered toppers (10 of 50) with assurance this is the last run of the year

  • Jersey Jack Pinball's next game may use only two models (LE and CE, no standard edition)

    medium confidence · Rumors circulating among hosts; Dennis notes this mirrors GNR production decision; Zach suspects Toy Story

  • George Gomez developing new James Bond-themed pinball machine from scratch with three-flipper layout

    medium confidence · Craig Bobby's news segment reports this as rumor based on Gomez taking over license from Steve Ritchie; Dennis speculated it may be Stern's final cornerstone of 2022

  • Lyman Sheets' code for Cactus Canyon is in final testing stages with radical scoring and strategy improvements

    high confidence · Josh Sharp confirmed to Final Round Pinball podcast per Craig Bobby's news report

  • Deep Root Pinball releasing cryptic weekly clues suggesting Turner Logic may have acquired Rasa IP and code

    low confidence · Chris Chandler reporting coded messages on Deep Root homepage; Dennis speculates on Eclectic Gamers podcast about Turner Logic involvement, explicitly calling it 'a big maybe'

  • Dutch Pinball held grand opening of new facility after 18-month delay; early Big Lebowski buyers (2016) still waiting for machines

    high confidence · Craig Bobby reports from pinballnews.com; notes Dutch shipping 2 machines per new sale to backlog customers

  • Keith Elwin conceded/walked off during World Championships semifinal without completing third ball

    high confidence · Multiple community discussions cited; hosts debate whether it was energy conservation or tactical decision due to game state

Notable Quotes

  • “It looked like somebody was carrying four buckets of paint slipped, busted their ass, it spilled everywhere and then they tried getting up and they were just flailing”

    Zach Minney @ early episode (floor epoxy discussion) — Describes the failed metallic epoxy floor design at Flippin' Out's new facility; humorous description of catastrophic contractor failure

  • “It's a big maybe as the website's puzzles and Turner's speculated desire to potentially have the Rasa machine made could be completely unrelated. So basically a giant festering pinball turd.”

    Craig Bobby (news segment) @ news desk segment — Summarizes Deep Root speculation with dismissive characterization; Craig Bobby's cynical commentary on the situation

  • “I'm just glad they don't pull a Keith Elwin and just have it walk off the line. Before it's done.”

    Zach Minney @ Godzilla production discussion — Zach makes sarcastic reference to Elwin walkoff during World Championships; indicates the incident is controversial enough to become casual shorthand

  • “Just takes one ball. Just takes one ball. Just takes one ball.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Elwin tournament analysis — Repeats competitive pinball axiom about comeback potential; illustrates the debate over whether Elwin's concession was tactically justified

  • “Well, it's felt like that all year, Zach. Yes, it has. Maybe now it really, really feels like it. To me, it's felt like it since March, early March, I'd say.”

    Dennis and Zach (alternating) @ JJP next game discussion — Expresses exhaustion with prolonged JJP announcement anticipation; suggests speculation has been ongoing for months despite continued lack of official news

  • “why would I? It didn't, it's his, it's his game, right? It's his, it was his decision. I mean, what, what do you want him to do? Sandbag?”

    Dennis Creasel @ Elwin discussion — Dennis's dismissive take on Elwin controversy; argues concession was Elwin's right as a player

  • “The market is so hot right now, and people are seeing people spend a lot of money on pinball machines.”

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonJersey Jack Pinball (JJP)companyStern PinballcompanyPat LawlorpersonGeorge GomezpersonSteve RitchiepersonDeep Root Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball maintaining two-machines-per-new-sale ratio to early Big Lebowski buyers from 2016, indicating sustained backlog management

    high · Craig Bobby: Dutch 'shipping out two machines to this group of early buyers for every one new machine that is now sold'

  • ?

    community_signal: Keith Elwin's mid-tournament concession/walkoff at World Championships draws mixed community reaction

    high · Hosts discuss divided community sentiment: some view as 'sign and show of respect,' others call it 'shitty'; debate over game state and energy conservation justification

  • ?

    leak_detection: Deep Root Pinball releasing weekly cryptic clues on homepage; possible Turner Logic connection to Rasa IP acquisition

    low · Craig Bobby reports 'cryptic and some say troll-like coded messages' with phrases like 'More than meets the eye'; Dennis speculates Turner Logic connection but explicitly calls it 'a big maybe'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Spinal Tap by Home Pin entering final assembly in June 2022 with updated software and easy upgrade capability

    high · Craig Bobby citing Nap Arcade reporting: 'Spinal Tap Machines will soon start final assembly and boxing later in June'

  • $

    market_signal: JJP potentially dropping standard edition model, focusing on premium (LE/CE) products in hot market

    medium · Zach: 'The market is so hot right now, and people are seeing people spend a lot of money on pinball machines...why even try? Let's just get the LE'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.264

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:12
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. This week on episode 102 of The Pinball Show, Dennis goes all audio as we discuss Stern production updates and a sneaky topper getting shipped. The next JJP game launch and rumor of the trim offering. Dennis and I discuss our interpretation of the Elwynn walk-off during the World Championships last week. American Pinball's Dave Fix talking about losing the Sonic license, consideration for manufacturing Deep Root games and re-theming J-Pop's old Houdini game, and continuing new release Street Rollouts. More fathoms getting delivered, but a longer possible wait for Cactus Canyon LEs, how much is too much for a pinball mod, and of course, pinball market trends? And hey, there may not be a lot of news, but at least there's The Pinball Show.
1:07
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Well, hello all of you fine people out there in the pinball show universe. This is episode 102. We are your hosts, Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel. Dennis, how are you today? I was like, you delivered it so flat. How are you today? This floor paint is taking it out of you. Oh, my poor floor. Poor floor. I can't even speak today. Oh, my gosh. Well, it's good to be back, Zach. You had a great episode 101 with Mr. Greg Bone. Oh, yes. The most popular person of Straight Down the Middle, a pinball show. This is probably true, unfortunately. You could, I think, usurp him if you would finally do the rubber band episode you promised two years ago. I've got one question for you these people aren't seeing us what the hell what happened to the video well and that's on me because I hate doing video and it's not about recording it it's not about you editing it because I don't mind you doing the edits I don't mind you uploading them I don't mind there being a video version what I do mind is having to actually look presentable well yeah because we normally as we did with the video record on Sunday as I told you then and as I told, I think I even told the listeners about the lights. See, I don't normally have the lights on. I'm sitting here in darkness. It's the lights.

Zach Minney @ JJP model strategy discussion — Frames JJP's two-model strategy within broader market heating and premium pricing normalization

Turner Logic
person
Dutch Pinballcompany
Lyman Sheetsperson
Josh Sharpperson
Ken Cromwellperson
Zach Minneyperson
Dennis Creaselperson
Haggis Pinballcompany
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Spinal Tapgame
Buzz Lightyear (movie)event
Craig Bobbyperson
Jeff Teolisperson
Alex Mossperson
?

personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie left Stern for Jersey Jack; George Gomez taking over James Bond project and completely redesigning from scratch

high · Craig Bobby: Gomez 'took over the license for the game...that Steve Ritchie was working on when he left Stern Pinball for Jersey Jack'

  • ?

    announcement: George Gomez developing James Bond pinball machine from scratch with three-flipper layout, taking over from Steve Ritchie

    medium · Craig Bobby: Gomez 'developing a completely new three-flipper layout for it from scratch'; Dennis speculates it may be 'Stern's final cornerstone game of 2022'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Elvira toppers arriving in severely limited batches (10 of 50 backordered); described as last run of year

    high · Zach: 'I still had 50 Elvira toppers on order I got 10' and 'this is the last run of them this year, I'm told'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Cactus Canyon receiving Lyman Sheets' final code with radical improvements to scoring and strategy

    high · Josh Sharp confirmed 'radical changes have been made to score big and in areas that matter most to people while playing the game'

  • ?

    product_concern: Contractor failure on epoxy flooring at Flippin' Out facility requiring $10,000 remediation

    high · Zach describes Cookie Monster-colored floor with bare spots and bucket marks; required emergency crew to scrape and redo in 2-day window

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Jersey Jack Pinball's next game rumored to be Toy Story with only LE and CE models (no standard edition)

    medium · Dennis: 'there may only be two models this time around, a LE and a CE, no standard' based on 'rumors circulating around the water cooler'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community criticism of Dutch Pinball grand opening celebration as poor taste given unmet 2016 preorder deadlines

    high · Craig Bobby: 'Long-time critics of Dutch pinball, including Canada's Pinball Podcast, thought the celebration wasn't in the best of taste, as many original buyers...still haven't received their machines yet'

    • 2:34
    I am in front of the oblivion. I'm in front of the all-consuming bagel and I just want to sit here in near silence, in near total darkness and just talk. So you're a bagel eater? No, that was a reference to a movie. Oh, I didn't know. Do you eat bagels, though? You seem like the bagel guy. I mean, I've had bagels before. I don't normally eat breakfast foods. Hmm.
    3:03
    I'm trying to see what I can do with that. You can't really do anything with that. But tell us about your floor paint. So most people, Zach, that I've ever, you know, I know people that will go and be like, I don't like carpet. I want hardwood floors. And then there will be others that will be like, yeah, yeah, I know the kitchen's linoleum or we're going to do some tile. I never before heard someone tell me, let's delay the record because I need the guys to paint the floor. I had to game play with the crew on a metallic epoxy coated flooring.
    3:41
    Now, I'm going to make it quick because I don't want anybody falling asleep. But in the flipping out facility, the new facility is underway. The barn. Well. The barn. The facility. The barn. The facility, it's got like a shop side, and it's got a hangout side with full bar and showers. That's where Dennis is going to hang out when he comes and spends the night. Loft up there, room for 50 or so pinball machines. So I want that to be fancy, and I want the shop area to be in the shop area. It's fine. So the coding guy just didn't know what the hell he was doing, claimed that he did, and the contractor contracted him out. And he messed up the shop side by putting a clear coat on that started chipping up within a week. Like an old bad play field for Mirko. How about that? Or perhaps a new bad play field. Well, we'll see. So that happened, and I was like, well, I don't want to pay for that. So he had to chip all of that up and put epoxy, which he's not done on yet. So on the fancy side, I wanted this nice galaxy-based black and blues and browns coming out from under the clouds of the auroras. Yes. You wanted to look like a bruise. Go on. That's very bruise-like with metallic flakes. And he attempted to do that, but what I ended up getting was more so like someone massacred fucking Cookie Monster all over my floor. There was just bright blue everywhere, and it wasn't even to the edges of the walls. There was bare spots. There was a fucking, listener, there was a bucket ring mark in the floor of Popsuit. I shit you not.
    5:24
    And I'm like, oh my. So this was really, really bad. And I just, I was like, here's the deal. I'm insightful enough that I know that if I start telling people this, they're going to be like, that's because Zach's a picky bastard. Nobody can ever make him happy. He can't work well with others, yada, yada. I knew that was going to happen. So I started showing people pictures because I've researched this stuff. I know how metallic epoxy works. I know the chemical process now. I've researched everything because I want this right.
    5:53
    So anyway, push comes to shove, and it's jacked up. And what do you do? I've got a kitchen coming in three days. You've got to figure out what the hell to do because you don't want the kitchen in there and then go back at some point in time to redo the floor, and you can't do that. So do you just leave it as it is, fucking Cookie Monster come everywhere? I don't know what to do.
    6:11
    So we could have just dealt with it and just had a really hideous floor. we could have just tried to lay wood over the top of it uh like right when he walked in too man right when you walked in i'm like and he called me out when i was i was working and he called me out hey you might want to come out here because it sets in like 15 minutes you've got to be freaking fast on this shit and uh and i apparently he didn't know that i did that's a problem so he's like come out here make sure this is what you're wanting and i walked out there and i said no no no, no, no, none of this. I don't want any of this. No. What did you do? And of course, he put his test spot right at the doorway. Fucking idiot. So needless to say, we had to call in some favors and have another crew come in and drop $10,000 to scrape up all of the old epoxy and to relay new stuff in efforts to get a kitchen in here in two days. wow yeah that's just one of the headaches of this facility yeah so do you refer to that original horrid color scheme as cookies and cream perfect perfect i was like who's this fucking it looks like a bad jackson pollock like what is this so you mean all of them it was just oh i well oh sorry oh never was a fan little art critic I described it as because people are like what went wrong? I'm like well it should be one what went right? It looked like somebody was carrying four buckets of paint slipped, busted their ass, it spilled everywhere and then they tried getting up and they were just flailing so that was the pattern of spread that they put on there maybe I'll post some pics on our Facebook page Like Windex balls and stuff It's like do you want to put it on stream Or spray or flail Flail This audio Doesn't know Now I wish we'd done a video So you could show us I'll have to put it on the face Maybe there will be a video piece stay tuned So what have you been up to Dennis that's been my Oh I had some work presentation Stuff we're getting ready for a big conference So I've just been And really busy managing all that because I basically do it unilaterally. So it's just like getting all the pieces together. Not hard, just tedious, that sort of thing. I see. Nothing exciting. I haven't repainted in years. Do you think you'd be willing – do you have a garage, don't you? I do, yeah. Or a board or something?
    8:57
    Would you ever be willing to paint the floor of that? Finish it out? You know, I could see painting like cement floor. Yeah, I could. I had never really considered it. You know, my co-host on Eclectic Gamers Podcast, Tony, constantly, constantly means maybe like once a year, says, you know, Dennis, you should just like convert part of the garage to like blow out the game room more so I can have more than seven games. Because I don't park in the garage. I just use it for storage and work. Sure. Like projects. So I could, in theory, extend that. My game room is right off the garage. There's a door that separates them. So you could actually just take that portion of the wall out and just extend it further. and I can probably more than double my current game count. Wow. It doesn't even have to be pinball machines either. You can put all kinds of stuff in there. Yeah. My game room is really weird.
    9:46
    They're not really great photos I have of it online. You kind of get an impression if you look at any with my neon sign. But it's really, really long and very, very narrow. It's like in the early 80s, suburbanite types were wanting to put in a single bowling lane or something. That's what the room feels like it was configured for. Do you think we could have a bro day, me, you, and Tony, epoxy together to the beats of like an old 80s song with our handkerchiefs on our heads and we just were epoxying away, trying not to pass out from the fumes? That sounds like a great day.
    10:21
    No. There it is. I mean, I could envision it, but yeah, I do think we would just pass out. And then we'd have flail pattern in my epoxy. Oh.
    10:33
    Let's see what Craig Bobby's got over at the news desk. How have you felt about Craig Bobby's top stories with Craig Bobby? They're good. He's doing a good job. I like that. You like the little animations, too? I didn't see the video for 101. Okay. Hello and welcome to the Pinball Show's news update. I'm Craig Bobby. Well, a busy week as we start the month of June as the pinball world waits with bated breath for official news out of Jersey Jack Pinball on details of their next release. Based on the overwhelming sentiment online that the next JJP title designed by veteran pinball creator Pat Lawler will be Toy Story, there still has been no official word from JJP's marketing and communication specialist Ken Cromwell on what this new title will in fact be. With the Buzz Lightyear spin-off movie releasing in the movie theaters on June 17th, and if JJP's next game is in fact Toy Story, it might be a good guess that JJP would make an announcement of their new title to coincide with the theatrical opening of the Buzz movie. But as always, we shall have to wait and see. And speaking of waiting, the pinball world is continuing to wait on news from Stern Pinball on what their next cornerstone title could be and on Stern's next round of code updates for their very popular Stern Insider Connected platform. Fans of the new online Stern platform that launched last year we're excited to hear Stern's Executive Vice President and Chief Creative Officer George Gomez reveal on the Super Awesome Pinball Show at the end of May that new updates were on their way with more announcements forthcoming later this year on new features and official plans for the online platform. Fans of Stern were also excited to hear that Gomez has taken over the license for the game, rumor has it a James Bond-themed title, that Steve Ritchie was working on when he left Stern Pinball for Jersey Jack and is developing a completely new three-flipper layout for it from scratch. Taking the rumor one step further, EGP and TPS host Dennis Creasel stated that a Gomez 007 pinball machine quote, may very well be Stern's final cornerstone game of 2022, end quote. Speaking of final, with standard edition Cactus Canyon games now making their way into the hands of distributors and customers, Josh Sharp shared news on the Final Round Pinball podcast with host Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins recently that Lyman Sheets' final code and rule set is almost ready to go and is in the final stages of testing. Josh confirmed that Lyman's code will be built on top of the base game, improving some of the scoring and strategy flaws to the already decent shooting machine. Josh commented that radical changes have been made to score big and in areas that matter most to people while playing the game, forcing players to make choices that aren't as obvious as the original, and maintaining Lyman's vision for improving the classic title that will improve on the overall playing experience. Ooh, can't wait! We still have no official information from CGC indicating that their LE models will be shipping soon, hopefully sometime during the summer once missing parts for the game's topper arrive. Speaking of Martin Robbins, it looks like Haggis Pinball's Fathom Revisited machine made an appearance at the Northwest Pinball and Arcade Show in Tacoma, Washington, this past weekend for people to try and experience. The event will mark the Haggis Built Machine's first public experience on North American soil. The machine on display was supposedly one of the demo machines used by Fast Pinball during their board design process. This past week, that Fathom-revisited machine that was temporarily put into storage during a home renovation was finally revealed to excited fans on YouTube as proud owner Alex Moss showed off edited video of the machine's build quality, art, and basic gameplay, which was nothing short of spectacular. Can you believe all that gorgeous chrome? Oh, Nelly! Come on now. And it's been a long time coming, but we might not have to wait much longer to get a glimpse of Home Pin's upcoming Spinal Tap pinball machine. courtesy of the Nap Arcade website, we received information that, quote, Spinal Tap Machines will soon start final assembly and boxing later in June, where we hope to share photos and videos with you in these next weeks. Software has been updated and machine owners will be able to upgrade the game's software easily without the Thunderbird-style handheld programmer. Handheld programmer? Say what? And lastly, our former Deep Root correspondent, Chris Chandler, has been kind enough to keep us updated, saying that there have been more cryptic and some say troll-like coded messages appearing on the Deep Root homepage. The latest messages include the expression, More than meets the eye and Great work, but don't miss the forest for the trees. A new clue will arrive each week. Our own Dennis Creasel surmised earlier in the week on his Eclectic Gamers podcast that the original code developer Turner Logic bought the Rasa IP and demo units and also owns the Rasa code and may, with a humongous capital M, be looking to have a limited number of Rasa machines contracted out. But that's a big maybe as the website's puzzles and Turner's speculated desire to potentially have the Rasa machine made could be completely unrelated. So basically a giant festering pinball turd. And finally, Dutch Pinball celebrated the grand opening of their new larger premises that they moved into 18 months ago, which, much like the extremely slow production of their big Lebowski pinball machines, has been delayed by the pandemic. The Dutch Pinball facility in the semi-rural town of Herkenbosch, Netherlands, which is adjacent to the German border. According to the pinballnews.com website, visitors and guests to the open house were treated to factory tours, catered appetizers, and free alcohol, along with a chance to play finished Big Lebowski games and other pinball machines that Dutch has collected in their own factory-style arcade. Long-time critics of Dutch pinball, including Canada's Pinball Podcast, thought the celebration wasn't in the best of taste, as many original buyers of the Big Lebowski game going back to 2016 still haven't received their machines yet, despite Dutch shipping out two machines to this group of early buyers for every one new machine that is now sold. Well, that's all for this week for the Pinball Show. I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    17:23
    Well, thanks, Craig, for all that great work yet again. He's good. He got us a lot of news again around the industry. Let's talk about the king themselves, Stern Pinball, though. I wanted to give people an update that I think it was last week Godzilla Premiums were shipping out. Everybody should be getting it. Yeah, or have had their Godzilla Premiums. Aren't they all caught up on those, Zach?
    17:49
    Oh, listen to that little gleeful cackle. The next run of Godzilla Premiums is in July. So next month. Wow. They're keeping it a high priority. It's still not enough. This never will never be enough. Greatest game of all time. Oh, my gosh.
    18:08
    Wait, that's Jurassic Park. Never mind. I'm just glad they don't pull a Keith Elwin and just have it walk off the line. Before it's done.
    18:16
    Ouch. So mean. That's just speaking the truth. It wasn't mean. It's just, you know, facts are facts. We'll talk about that here soon. So Godzilla premiums are shipping out until, and then July we'll see another one. But next, I'm thinking next is going to be likely listener Mandalorian Pro and Premiums. And then we're going to see Rush Pro and Premiums here in June, July. So if you've got those on order, there's a good chance you're going to get those. I think we have some extra Mandalorian Pro and Premiums too if anybody's interested. We've got spots open. And out of nowhere, Dennis, another topper was shipped to us, a bundle of toppers that I wasn't even giving a heads up on. I didn't even know it was coming. All of a sudden, I see Elvira toppers make their way back to our shop. So how many toppers are in a bundle?
    19:07
    What is a bundle of sticks? Mine were 20% of what I had backordered. Womp, womp. Okay. 20% Well that doesn't really give me a sense of volume I guess they found a Perhaps they found a stockpile of stickers I don't mind to say I think I still had 50 Elvira toppers on order I got 10 Wow That's a lot on order Oh is it? Well to me for a game that That they keep pushing You know they don't make any more of Because they keep pushing it back Well you are talking to the topper king Yeah I understand But I just assumed you'd at least do value meal options. Oh, I see. Yeah. No, I just only got – and this is the last run of them this year, I'm told.
    19:58
    That doesn't surprise me. Got a lot of people still enlist. My apologies for Stern not sending a note.
    20:04
    That sucks. That's pretty much – I'm trying to think. Besides the next Cornerstone coming out in August, I don't think there's much else going on at Stern Pinball or really the rest of the pinball world. but everybody's still gearing up for Jersey Jack Pinball's next game. It feels like we're getting pretty close. Well, it's felt like that all year, Zach. Yes, it has. Maybe now it really, really feels like it. To me, it's felt like it since March, early March, I'd say. I'd been expecting this game.
    20:33
    The rumors are imminent. The rumors have been imminent for months now. But we're still in the window of you and I's guess. You and I guessed it to be June. so yeah i mean there's still pretty much the whole month to go for them to formally do the reveal this month but you know if i'm wrong what was it what did a nap arcade say in one of his articles that i'm like some sort of shortstop guy hitting a single on i don't know i had to message him and i said i don't know what this what this means but it sounds mean and he said it means you're not accurate i go oh okay then yes it's mean but true mean but true me better river corner look it just rumor tames people it's not it's accuracy levels not the best for someone that just hates the singing you now have a segment intro song to that but i didn't request that here they glenn did he do some of the stuff for triple drain too i he tried but i think i think they went with somebody else oh this could be you know because I don't know the he just sent it out of the blue and emailed us at eclectic gamers podcast at gmail.com and just sent the song man speaking of intros the pinball show video intro people really digging that.
    21:45
    Yeah, but they don't like I saw someone who said one person I can't say so one person didn't like the new song. What do you think about it I thought it was well done The song okay but I mean I still think of the old too But I one of those where I can be a little slow on the uptake of change So that's just what I chalked it up to. I set my ways. I'll be looking forward to the next video version of the Pinball Show, episode 174.
    22:15
    Oh, why not 175? I think me and Craig Bobby might still just run with this video. Craig's probably going to be like I took like 85 photos for you of various facial expressions I think you did this week too he sent a message saying that he only expected it to be one time yes you're the only one who wants to do more that's how you are though you try to pressure people into changing from a podcast to some sort of vlog you gotta fill the bellies you have straight down the middle for this creative outlet You don't need to videify the pinball show. Have you seen the numbers, Dennis? Yeah. The numbers were fantastic. Numbers for 100 were, yeah. Numbers don't lie. I only report what's positive.
    23:05
    I know. I had a negative comment. Someone gave a negative comment to me on the YouTube. I don't know if I saw that. Well, not like being mean. Just disagreeing with some of my claims regarding haggis. What did they say? oh i think they indicated that haggis did make more promises than soft yeah no they didn't say soft specifically i think they indicated that there were some contract well i don't have a contract because i haven't bought a fathom but that purportedly there were more promises than just the one that wasn't really a promise but the deadline it was about the deadlines where i'd said that they had that you know they had that original deadline that they missed by a country mile they were this person was indicating there were other deadlines that were given whereas all i ever had heard were there were you know here's what we're targeting but i had never heard them set a new deadline but purportedly those who had ordered games did have more deadlines so yeah and they did but again i ain't always right they said that they were going to get them out eight weeks after full payment and yeah that's true it has it is i think it's been eight weeks closing in on eight well i see i don't know when every individual i mean you had mentioned on our last episode that you had not yet fully paid for all of them even though they had sent you a bill but But I did get my individual one came weeks prior to that where they did request full payment. This was more for the flipping out a lot. Right, right. And so you were weighing because they had not yet issued you the first game you had already fully paid for. And I did discuss this concern I had with them.
    24:38
    They told me some things to reassure me. And still a calculated risk, but I am going to take it. I know we have Haggis in the show later, so we'll go more into it. Because there's been developments that have, I feel, while not counteracting what I may have claimed regarding deadlines, has indicated more positivity than I think some people were feeling at the time. Okay.
    25:00
    But Jersey Jack, positive feelings. I don't know. Where's Toy Story? There's got to be Toy Story, right, Zach? I don't know when or where. I may or may not know when or where, to be honest. But I don't know when it's coming. I did hear some rumors circling around the water cooler, listener, that there may only be two models this time around, a LE and a CE, no standard.
    25:30
    That doesn't really surprise me. No? Well, you know, it's a mix. I don't think it's surprising just given the fact how quickly they pulled the standards on GNR from production. Yes. You remember? It felt like a month. and uh the only part that that makes me wonder is at the time with gnr with the pandemic and the standard was that company's pivot in my view to try and capture more location pinball and location pinball was not doing well during the pandemic but now that we're on the right hand side of the bell curve on that my my thinking would be they might want to target again those locations. But if the issue is just no one's ordering that version because they stripped too much stuff out, then no reason to waste your time making another SKU. I think if they end up doing the two-model thing this time around, it does make sense to me because they weren't selling the standards in the past. And that's what I think it comes down to. I would say it's a smart decision based off of the GNR performance. And if demand starts coming up for a stripped-down version again, they can always do it as an experiment in the future. Conversely, if they were going to do a standard model, and if it is the rumored Toy Story, it's kind of the thing you'd want to do a standard on. But I think their decision probably comes down to the market as well. The market is so hot right now, and people are seeing people spend a lot of money on pinball machines. and they're seeing a lot of locations spend money on premium versions of Stern games or deluxe versions of American Pinball. So they're thinking, you know, why even try? Let's just get the LE and we'll buy it and it'll all be good. They'll see operators wanting to have it if it is Toy Story. Like, well, we've got to get that.
    27:26
    Yeah, no, again, I don't think it's a bad move on their part if the rumor's true. let's talk about whether or not you think last week's world tournament there was any bad moves that went on there i wanted to get your take on because people people have been talking about keith elwyn draining ball three then the semifinals of the quarter semifinals or whatever he was in the top eight drained at ball three without the chance to provide a big comeback and show that he is the greatest of all time. There's a lot of people that are mixed on this. Some thinking it was a sign and a show of respect. Some people thinking, I don't care that he did that, but it's still shitty. Some people thinking that something else was going on. Did you see it, and what were your takes? No, I rarely watch competitive pinball. But you did see it on the pinball show highlight.
    28:25
    No, I didn't watch 101. I listened to it. I listened to it as a podcast. I have not seen any of the video from 101. I saw 100.
    28:37
    Did you hear about the Gator? Yes, I heard 101. I don't know what. The Gator thing was just strange. I don't think that should ever come up again. You didn't see the Chroma Key Green Scream Gator come up to the screen? No, I didn't watch the video. I listen to podcasts when I drive. That is how I consume podcasts.
    28:59
    Which is part of the reason why I have very little interest in it being a video show, because I listen to this as a podcast. Why can't you just be like everybody else and put the video up in your car, but just lie and tell people that you don't watch YouTube while you're driving? Just be like everybody else.
    29:16
    Isn't that what everybody does? They watch the video, but then they lie. No, of course I'm not watching while I'm driving. No, they're all good. All drivers are good. Ten and three.
    29:26
    So what was your take? I don't care. Are you really just, you don't care? You don't care about the story? You don't care that he did it? You don't care what? I do not care that he did it. I mean, why would I? It didn't, it's his, it's his game, right? It's his, it was his decision. I mean, what, what do you want him to do? Sandbag?
    29:50
    No. Well, then if they're, okay. Yeah, the idea of conceding, because that's essentially what it was. To me, as near as I can think of, there are three primary reasons why anyone would concede in a game. One would be that there'd be some sort of long-term advantage to doing it. Obviously, that was not the case for Elwin. Saving energy is what I heard. Right, right, right. And I did see the threat on Pennside. So I think another player, though, had conceded at one point for strategic reason because they were really tired and they were going to go on even if they conceded. So they did. I sure did the following round to conserve some energy for an additional game. So that's an example of conceding to gain a long-term advantage. Which I think is silly, but okay. Well, and we've seen extreme examples in sport. Do you remember the whole badminton thing back in the 2012 Olympics where the gold medal favorites were throwing through their first round games so they could face weaker teams later? It was really controversial. That's just a bad format set up then. But the rules appeared to allow it. So that's what they did. Anyway, so that's one example for long-term advantage. It doesn't apply to Elwin, though. We know he didn't because that ended his tournament run. So option number two would be that, in his view, the rest of the game didn't matter, that the result was inevitable and there was no point to continue playing. Too big of a distance.
    31:20
    And that's where people are debating. Now, we all know that in pinball, what's the saying? And I say this a lot in competitive pinball when I'm playing in tournaments is it just takes one ball. Just takes one ball. but from elwin's perspective well that is always conceptually factually true you could always in theory use one ball and grind your way back sure if he didn't see a path that he thought he could accomplish it he may not have felt that it was worth trying to stand up there and attempt to control the ball for however many minutes it would take for him to do it and again because i didn't see it and i don't i like dialed in but i don't know it super duper well there were people who We're talking about the state of the game and whether or not he was close on his SIM cards and how much work it was going to take for him to actually feasibly earn that many points. To a lot of people, it was achievable. Other people said it is, but his game state was not in a good position for it. And I know there's been a lot of debate as to whether or not Elwynn even fully understood the rules of the game. Okay. So that's maybe a possibility, but we know technically he could have saved it. So then there's the third one, though, which if we're saying it's viable as a choice, is above reproach. And that would be that it stopped being fun.
    32:43
    And so to me, obviously, I've not read any comment that he's made about this, if he's given any. But if he's been playing and he saw where he was at on ball three of dialed in and he thought, you know what? I'm really just not having fun right now. then why not concede and let the people who are having fun continue? So that's why I don't care.
    33:07
    That's why I don't care. He's not obligated to tell me or anyone else that he wasn't having fun anymore. This may not be particularly common in a lot of athletic sports. In games, conceding when you're not having fun anymore is pretty common. Really? In eSports and stuff? Yeah. Okay.
    33:26
    Even during world championships? You know, I don't know because I don't watch a lot of other games in other world championships. See, most of the stuff I watch is like a team game or a team sport. I see. And it's different when it's a whole team.
    33:39
    But Elwin wasn't on a team. He's just playing for him. Team Elwin? Yeah. But couldn't you argue that he's Team Elwin, but he's also Team Pinball. He's also Team Stern. He's also Team – I don't think so. So you're taking that Charles Barkley, he doesn't have to be a role model. I didn't see any sponsors on his jersey in the game I didn't watch, so I don't know if that's true or not. Yeah, I see, figuratively. What about the angle that people say it was his passing in the torch? It was actually a very respectful thing to do.
    34:13
    You know, I don't consider – I don't agree with that either. I'm not saying it was disrespectful. My understanding is he went up afterwards and it was very – the way he did it was in a respectful manner. I think that saying like it's, oh, I'm going to – it's like it's not – it's weird. This isn't like a title belt thing. Like this is one event and one – no, this is one event. If he comes back from that, let's say he came back on bottle three, that doesn't prove he's the greatest of all time. No, but it sure paints a picture to the legacy that is. Sure, of course it does. but if Michael Jordan went in there with someone else having a flu and it's still talked about to this day it's of course it's it's it becomes a moment in gaming history becomes like evo moment number whatever the one I don't remember which one it was anymore I should remember my evo moments but it's like that doesn't mean it doesn't mean as much as sometimes we in the moment want to assign to it he did it in a very respectful way he went up to his competitor afterwards as my My understanding was it wasn't done to be insulting. But on the flip side, I don't.
    35:22
    Again, it was top eight. It wasn't like the grand championship match. It's not a passing of the torch.
    35:29
    We might view it like that in the sense like if Elwin doesn't play ever again, then I guess you could take it that way. I think if he doesn't ever play again, then I kind of understand this more. But he had already really stepped away. He was mostly. he's been mostly retired from pinball tournaments. If you're in Escher's position, do you want Keith to walk away to guarantee you a win? Or do you want Keith Elwin, the greatest of all time, to bring his all?
    36:02
    I want him to bring his all. I mean, that would probably be my stance as well. But that being said, it's not my right to decide that he brings his best. 100% absolutely. If I were Elwynn, I would have played it out. But that's just me. But I've been in boats where I don't think I can make it, and I don't, and I do feel like I've wasted my time. You're like, this isn't fun. I just want to go. Do you think Keith Elwynn likes the limelight? One of the options that you didn't mention that I think could be pertinent is that maybe he realized, yeah, the odds were stacked against him, but I can still keep the focus on me and my legend if I just walk away right now and keep people talking for the next couple weeks.
    36:48
    No, I don't think so. Okay. The legend is, you know, legends are legends because they're legendary. He's got so many wins. No one, to pull a line from the Patriot, this will be forgotten.
    37:07
    I don't think it will be. Tavington, this massacre will be forgotten. I think this goes down as part of his storyline now. For better or worse. No, people. A walk-off in a game full of people. No, no one. We pretend to care right now, but it's just not a big deal. Again, maybe if this had been like Escher and Elwynn were the final two, a top eight decision to walk off, no one cares. Not really. This is nothing else to talk about. For hours he played one person, and this was in the ninth game.
    37:43
    And he just walks away. It's just top eight. Escher didn't even win this. Just top eight. Hundreds of players. Just top eight. Didn't even win it. You're talking about passing the torch and stuff. It's like Escher didn't even win. Yeah, but he's a young guy.
    37:56
    Yeah, but being fourth at IFPA 17 isn't going to be the highlight of his career either. Maybe Escher dropped the torch.
    38:06
    The flame went out. Maybe a storm front from the West moved in. Well, you know what could have happened? I've been there. Maybe Keith Elwin had to poop.
    38:20
    We don't know. That's where it falls under the game stop being fun. It doesn't have to be about the game. I've been in tournaments where I almost went. I didn't go to the 403 Club tournament yesterday. I was thinking about it, and then I decided, you know what? I don't want to drive 30 minutes in the rain, and then I don't know how long I'll be playing. And I hadn't eaten, and I thought, I'm going to be really hungry. And I decided I would rather go eat food. So that's what I did. Yeah, yeah. And I've been in really long tournaments where I'm like, gosh, I just wish I would. I've actually said it. I wish I would lose so I could go eat. Yeah, when it stops being fun. I think that's a good way to wrap this discussion up because I'm with you. There's no professional pinball. yes okay people aren't making their living playing pinball there's not formal rules and i mean let me let me take that back there are rules but they're not like high level standard the first thing no the first thing we have to address if we actually formalized pinball as professional sport is the substance use oh god back to this thing no well think about it how many people do you know that say they play their best with two drinks in them sure that wouldn't be allowed in any other professional sport agreed because you're using a chemical advantage agreed I mean no there are a lot of serious bridges we would have to cross if we were going to try and actually turn this into a real professional like a league a real league a sports league a collegiate level a farming system yeah I'm just saying it's not at that and I think what we do in hobby tournaments is different even when they're high level. So I think a lot of people wanted me to crap on this move and say this is what's wrong with competitive pinball, right? My pulpit. Well, because it wasn't good for the viewers, and that's all you care about. I do care about growing the hobby and the industry. You're right. No, I don't necessarily think it was bad for the viewers.
    40:25
    I think from a marketing standpoint, a production standpoint, I would have leaned into this storyline to get it more exposure. Well, and it has been talked about a lot. I mean, that's one of the things I saw in the Pinside thread stated multiple times is, you know what? This is good just because we actually have people talking about competitive pinball who are not just the competitive pinball players. That's my take. I'm with you, Dennis, on I really don't care whether he did it or not. Do I think it's bad for the sport? Well, it depends on what angle you're looking at the health of a sport. I think it was really good exposure for the antics that can bring up some exposure in this. Ron Hallett right now is shaking his head. It's not a sport, Ron, I know, in this hobby, in this industry. So I don't care if he did it. I would like to think I couldn't do it, but I'm not in that position to make the call whether I would have done it or not. So I don't think it's necessarily bad for his brand. I don't think it's good for his brand, but it does increase exposure for everything in general. Now, here's the issue I have, Dennis. Tell me if you agree.
    41:30
    I don't think this is a Keith Elwin problem. I think, if anything, this is an IFPA slash competitive pinball problem.
    41:40
    This, Keith didn't do anything wrong. If you have to determine the fucking winner and the best player of a top eight playing for four hours straight on nine different games, your system is broken. I'm sorry. That is ridiculous. Nobody in their right mind would sit there and watch all of that to determine who the best is. And many people's take is going to be this. Why does it matter? We don't care what other people think. This is our internal niche hobby. This is what we want to do. This is how we want to determine it. Completely fine. But from the outside looking in, I think, can they not just play one game? Why are we playing nine games? Why are we playing for four hours? even one game if you're playing on captain fantastic put me to sleep horrible pick by the way i know competitively whatever it's the same strategy everybody does the same thing it's completely and utterly boring but for four hours i think it's an ifpa competition issue maybe keep that one dropped out because he's so damn bored and as was probably a lot of other people watching as well agree disagree uh i i agree that that length of time is probably by and large for viewers quite boring it's part of the reason why i don't watch competitive pinball um but you know when you're if you're talking about the competitive pinball and you're talking about the skill of the players if you don't currently at least at least through the ifpa and the philosophy is that pinball is everything with flippers and different eras play very very differently and i think you would agree with that like ems feel very very different than early solid state alpha numeric when a different route and of course modern pinball is different from that so if you're not having that full mix if you were to just play it all on rush you're not really measuring who's the best in the world at pinball you're measuring who's the best at the world on rush so they're trying to get at that by using a mix of games from a mix of eras and having enough of a sampling. I mean bear in mind while the Super Bowl is ultimately one big game played the World Series is best out of seven As is NBA Finals and whatnot So different games and sports address it differently And currently this is just how the format is A different league, a different international, maybe the National Flipper Pinball Association might choose a different system. There's not that there's not an argument to do it a different way. I'm just saying that this is what their philosophy is. And you're not going to change their. I don't think you'll be successful in trying to change their philosophy that it should all just come down to whatever the one brand new game is. I think that why can't we do a tournament where a bracket system like they did here and you start out – because the best pinball player, the best skill I think can be that person who can play Rush the best. But to get there, maybe the first round is EMs. And then after that, the second round is early solid state. And then after that, you know, then you have your big modern games.
    44:55
    And by the end of that bracket, that will determine, and one game, just one game, that's it. That's it. One game.
    45:04
    Will you get a bad game here and there? Yeah, everybody does. Equals a playing field. That's where I'm at on competitive pinball. Still love you, Josh Sharp. Speaking of champions, Dave Fix was on the Pinball News Pinball Magazine podcast this last week. Oh.
    45:23
    Yeah, old Fixie. Yeah, I think I've not heard this, so you'll have to brief me. Okay, we've got some notes here. Let's go through them. Dave Fix said that they began working with Sega on the Sonic the Hedgehog license. I didn't really know that. Sega. Mm-hmm. Then they hired Ryan McQuay. This is kind of a timeline of events. Okay. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. All right. So they were working on it before they hired Ryan. Interesting. Yes. And I think as a, hey, we know we can get Ryan. Let's try to get this license. It's looking good. Let's hire Ryan. Then Dave Fick said they went back to Sega to, quote, finalize that license. And then Sega indicated that they were going another direction with a different manufacturer. Oh, ouch. And then. The old rug tug. But they kept Ryan on board. The old rug tug there. Hmm. Yeah. But they kept Ryan.
    46:15
    Why not? He's a good designer probably, maybe, sort of. We'll see. Yeah. And there's one thing American Pinball doesn't have enough of. It's the designers. That's right. So then Dave Fix claims that he asked Sega what manufacturer ended up getting the license. And they said, no, we're not going to say. I mean, that's a secret. Yeah. It's a secret. It's not important. It's kind of confidential. And he said, well, at least answer me this. Was it Stern Pinball? let's start rolling you have you have you you've been through this before probably been through your kids before you're like i'm not going to tell you and then they just start guessing and initially you humor them and you're like they're going to eventually get there does it rhyme with term so is it 80 plus percent of the market stern what was the answer uh no or yeah no the answer was no they whoa now that's actually surprising to me because Because Stern has that reputation of going in and stealing licenses because that's what Spooky said they did. Well, they just had a picture of the new CEO and Gary Stern taking a picture of the cosplay or something with Sonic the Hedgehog character. I don't know if Dave Fix is right. I don't know if he's right.
    47:30
    I don't know. Or maybe he's right, but Sega lied. That's right. Maybe they didn't mean to. Maybe to Sega they meant no as in no, I'm not going to tell you if it's Stern or not. Like, well, can you tell me? At least was it Stern? No. And the no meant no, leave me alone. Not no, it's not Stern. Okay, but possibly it's not Stern.
    47:56
    Yeah, Sega ended up saying. It could be Home Pen. It was some kind of tree pinball company with roots. I don't know. I hope they didn't say that. So now Dave Fix is going through all the back channels, he said, trying to find out who has the license. What it felt like to me is he was publicly trying to kind of position the manufacturer that got this license as needing Ryan McQuaid. He was really talking up, you know, I'd hate to see this manufacturer come out. And people really hate their rendition of Sonic because people are so behind Ryan McQuaid, you know, trying to get Ryan McQuaid. And I guess because they said they were open to working and partnering with that other company that got the Sonic license to get Ryan to design this game.
    48:40
    Oh, Dave Fix. This is kind of weird. It's very American. I feel it. It feels like it, to me, this is just my opinion. It feels to me like they really just wanted to go ahead and do their whole American dream kind of thing with Ryan and just make Sonic Spinball. and now that they can't, they're still trying to find a way to do it because that was the idea. Yes. They don't have another idea with him yet. I think Dave Fix and AP Team need to take on the Disney license of Frozen and let it go!
    49:16
    Move past it. Ryan McQuaid had a cool game there. He can do another cool game with another cool thing. Hopefully an intellectual property that everybody knows. But I think they'll be fine. They don't need to try to piggyback off of the company that ended up getting Sonic. Here, let me help. Allow me to help. American Pinball. Dennis here. Let me help you. If you cannot get Sonic, just re-theme it. Just re-theme Ryan's game for your commercial version. Do Super Monkey Ball. There you go. Monkeys are in a ball. I was going to go with Dr. Robotnik's bean machine. No, just do. Just do Super Monkey Ball. It's a known license. Video game property. It's about ball rolling around everywhere. There you go. It's basically Sonic, but with a monkey. Except that the gameplay is quite a bit different. But regardless, for pinball, maybe an option. So there you go. Consider doing that. I get the argument, but this, again, I can't help but feel the parallels with Godzilla.
    50:19
    When Spooky went out and talked about, and you remember how they told it? At least this is how it is in my headcanon. So maybe this ain't, this may not be 100%. Listeners, we're going to relive it because I still thought it came across as petty. The reenactment. Yes, where the spooky version of the story goes, they're in this meeting, high-level meetings with Toho. Big boardroom, too. Oh, yeah. That's how I envision it. Mahogany table. No paint on these floors. This was that high-end carpeting, like Persian. Yeah. Heavy doors. and Jody Dankberg 300 Spartan kicks that door open. Splinters fly off from... Bugs probably got a piece of wood in his shoulder. Shrapnel. Jody walks through. Gary walks in behind him wearing the full on... Everything but the helmet from Vader. All of it. Is there smoke?
    51:16
    There's fog. It's not healthy to breathe in all the smoke. There's a fog billowing from the hallway behind.
    51:24
    And Gary just walks up and force throws a few thousand dollars on the table to Toho's representatives.
    51:34
    And Gary just goes, all too easy, and walks out. And then Jody finalizes the deal, and they all sign the contract. I thought Jody pulled the mic out of his pocket and just dropped it on the table. That was the Dennis and Hans spooky version of what happened. then Gomez went on because this was the one I remember people talking about the rumors of Stern later on because people don't remember the old stuff they started talking about the rumors that Stern had Godzilla Gomez confirmed they had Godzilla because they had to because Spooky had already confirmed it but the way that version went about is it sounded almost like they were on the floor of Comic Con people are just walking up to each other talking in booths and groups it's all really really open and so Stern just kind of walked up while there was a discussion going on because they wanted to have a discussion with Toho But regardless of how cool both of these versions of the story are, I think I told the spooky one far better. The bottom line is I think the vast majority of people engaged in this hobby are at this point downright glad that Stern got Godzilla. Yeah, that's what I said last week. Because it ended up turning out to be an incredible game. And maybe spooky would have done an incredible game too. but I think a lot of people feel that Elwynn did a better job than what Spooky could have put out. I don't think it's a stretch, yeah. And so all I'm saying about all of that isn't to criticize Spooky or put Stern on a pedestal. It's simply that just because Sonic Spinball is a really fun homebrew game does not mean Sonic cannot somehow be even better. I completely agree. We just have to look past your preconceived notions and accept that a wholly new design might actually be even better, more awesome. We don't know. Until we see it, we do not know. And Stern's been cranking out some hits lately. I still think it's probably Stern that has it. But Dave says it's not Stern. So is this Steve Ritchie's new game? Oh.
    53:27
    You know, he's been the designer known as got to go fast. Speed and flow. That's right. Now people are talking about, I mentioned last week, that, man, Ritchie should get Top Gun. That'd be great. F-14. Now everybody, there's a thread on there about it. Yeah. It's a thing now. I think Steve would be probably open to it. Dave Fix was all over the place in this interview. He was talking about the idea of AP manufacturing Deep Root games in the past. He said he's still talking to Deep Root lawyers about the IP.
    54:02
    And they haven't been auctioned off. Right. What is going on? Actually, on the last Eclectic Gamers, I talked a little bit about IP and not being sure. And I know Mr. Blueberry Johnson sent us an email. I haven't had a chance to fully go through it, but I think he was just noting that he could clarify some of the stuff Tony and I were discussing, which leads me to believe I was probably wrong on some of the things that usually people offer that it means Dennis is wrong, which is quite possible because there are a lot of twists and turns going on with all of that. Last that I remember seeing in the thread since that email, trying to catch up this morning, was it sounded like there had been no confirmation that the IPs have been sold yet. So this could very well be accurate. So that lines up with what the day fix was saying. Yeah, yeah. That mostly it's been the – that discussions have been going on. People have been saying there have been discussions about the IP, but so far the sales have been like physical property stuff. Yeah, because we don't know if Turner is wanting to buy those. Well, and that was where my – Yeah, my speculation with Tony was about – because Turner Logic, I guess they got the Raza prototypes and stuff. So we had a discussion, is Turner Logic trying to sell the prototypes of the – make them fully working and sell the prototypes, actually sell Razas at some sort of scale, or actually trying to establish an entire pinball company and basically do the first few Deep Root games? Because those are like the three things I could sort of see maybe they're angling. It'll never work, but yeah. Well, and part of our discussion was, surely, in our minds, surely Turner Logic, an IT company, isn't going to set up a manufacturing line. So who would they contract with? They're going to want to farm it out. They just want to make the money off of it.
    55:48
    I think it's a dumb idea for all parties. So do you think that's possible? Because I think that's much more achievable. But it's dumb for all parties included. Other than Raza, I would agree. Because Raza's done. But nothing else is. And it won't sell. Well, that's my concern with why I don't understand why it seems like a play's being made.
    56:09
    Raza was never a really popular game. We know the pre-order numbers were not even 150 units. I mean, it's just not well-received, even in this market. And that was even during a time where everything is getting purchased. Tell legends of all Hollis old 500 deluxe editions. I mean, come on. Now you've got all of the shit smear that was Deep Root, and then to think that that's going to see the light of day? No, that's not going to happen. Yeah, I struggle with it, and I think it's too much of a stretch for a new company to be like, oh, let's buy from the new company because then I'll own a piece of the Deep Root weirdness. It's like, no, buying the prototype gets you that. This is different. This is like, people don't buy Alien from Pinball Brothers because they want a piece of Highway's failure. They buy it because it was a fairly well-received game actually being made again. Absolutely, 100%. Dave Fix was even talking about considering retheming J-Pop's Houdini game. Remember that first Houdini? That's just a diorama. It doesn't even have completable shots. He claimed that there is one working, I don't know how working it is, but there's one put together with Matt Andrews' artwork, Houdini, that is completely different than Joe Balser's Houdini. It's in a collector's place somewhere. But he said they own the rights to it all. He said it's sitting in his office. They've even considered re-theming that. And then he threw out, who knows, Houdini's Revenge or something. but and why why what what i don't know i'm starting to really like your frozen analogy yes that's i they've got i mean we know there's a plan or they've already indicated there's a plan at some point to to do a game that barry also developed we know they've got dennis nordman we know now also they have ryan mcquade i don't understand why you would do this and ryan mcquade's game is not looking like it's going to be out until after 2023 because dave fix did say on that interview that they still plan on doing Orsler's game in 2023 next year and another Nordman game that he's on his first Whitewood on 2023 as well. And then we'll see that Nordman later this year. So McQuaid's looking at 2024 at the earliest. So are they only planning to do one game this year? Because Dave's been talking three. Well, of course he's talking three, but only one. Only one. And he did say that they're building another line, so they potentially have three lines now in American Pinball. And I'm like, for what? Are they going to have more lines than they do games? Yeah, I don't.
    58:51
    I don't understand. I don't come from the manufacturing world. I haven't been in pinball since the 90s, so maybe it's not my place to understand. The Juice is Loose, Jonathan Juiceton, asked with this American Dream homebrew contest, in subsequent years are you going to include virtual pinball designs that can be made into physical games? Now, side note, 20 minutes later, Jonathan slipped that he himself was working on a virtual pin design.
    59:21
    Maybe he had a little interest invested in there to be asking that question in general. I think it's the most idiotic idea ever, not because I don't like virtual pinball, because it's night and day. It's apples and oranges. But, of course, Dave fixes a man to the people and said, you know what, it's a really good idea, and we may consider that next year. Why? I don't know. I completely respect virtual pinball, and there are a lot of really incredible virtual pinball tables. But it is a big step up to be able to – you can't – I don't – and maybe it's, again, I might just be too dumb, Zach, But I don't know that you can just instantly glance and go, oh, yeah, that's going to work as a physical. Like, you'd have to invest time to figure out if you're – I just – it reminds me of Deep Root trying to make Space Cadet into a physical version, and they had to make changes. There are already so many people making physical homebrews that are probably interested. And I've already said in the past I'm not a big fan of this whole American Dream thing contest. I don't like it. But there are plenty of actual physical homebrews to choose from that. Why would you even broaden it like this? I don't understand. I do not get it. I think, if anything, Dave Fitch is just trying to get that PR. He's trying to get that catch of people. What if, you know, American pinball? What if? I think it's very, in my opinion, I've got enough insight. When I hear stuff like this, I think it's very telling in a lot of ways. I won't go into it, but it's just very telling that you're talking about retheming J-pop's game, talking about taking deep root entities, talking about making virtual pinball part of your America pinball. Let's not bullshit each other, people. One of the main reasons that they're doing this homebrew thing is because it makes you look good as a company, but you're also getting shit already done. Look at Legends of Valhalla and Wrath of Olympus if that ever happens. a lot of this stuff is already done for you they get rid of Josh Kugler they're down one coder they're going to need all the help they can get to me it feels like just not taking the initiative to commit on certain things it's feckless I find it completely feckless wow I like that term feckless and to round out the information coming from Dave Fix and that PNPMP he's going to continue to do street rollouts for these new games. That is, instead of getting them to dealers and getting them into homes, he wants to get them out on location first. He said something that I don't think he means, but it looks good. He said, look, you know, sometimes you get these games out and people purchase them without even being able to not even play them, but sometimes they don't even see them. We here at American Pinball, we want to get them out on location so that people can put their hands on them and play them before they decide whether they want to buy them or not.
    62:24
    Well, I mean, while I don't buy games until I have played them because I subscribe to the philosophy that he seems to agree with, if you can sell them without having people play them as a seller, why would you care? Why would you care? Again, while I may criticize it as a consumer saying, you know what, and I totally understand that people are like, I don't even get a chance to try the LE before I have to decide to buy it. From a consumer perspective, totally get the complaint. From a seller's perspective, that's a good problem to have. I don't get it. I do not get it. Do you think he thinks that people believe this?
    63:01
    That's where I'm trying to figure out. Sure. Here's what I – People are smart. All right. From a – I guess from a PR perspective, being the company that – If he's trying to position American Pinball as a really pro-consumer company – He's trying to be Spooky Pinball, PR. What? No, Spooky doesn't. But Spooky doesn't do this. Spooky is all about the let's sell out all of the games before we even show you what the play field looks like. Yes, with respect to that, yeah. And then they make the weird decision to show you how bad it shoots on stream, and then people are like, am I stuck with this or can I – I mean, I don't – look, I can criticize all sorts of stuff. I ain't no manufacturer, though, so I'm not living it. the but here i am with a podcast so here i'm gonna say what i think anyway so yeah i just i could see like i don't think it gets too many sales so i don't understand why we would do this the i like the idea of yes game on location i think in a way other companies try and do this as well you know stern's policy quite well about one of those first pros to go to locations so that people can experience the game and the thought is i'm sure to ultimately move more units i think however So the way you've described how he discussed it in the interview, he's positioning it not as, yeah, we're hoping we can increase sales and we can get the games to the locations first while we're still geared up on that line to make that game. Not, well, people need to try it first. We don't think it's good that people want to buy all our games. They're making it sound like people want to buy their games already. It's not solving a problem. Why would you change this? If they could hire 50 more people, they could make a lot more machines. If he could put Legends of Valhalla, the standard edition, they would sell so many of them. But he said he's trying to be fair to those people, the deluxe buyers, and really trying to focus in. I don't get it. There's not much news, but there's still a little bit left. Let's do a quick rundown, Dennis. The rest of the news here. Haggis Pinball on the news. Starting to see a couple of those Fathom Revisited Mermaid editions leaving the factory. One, in fact, at the Northwest Pinball and Arcade Show this past weekend. Did you see any pictures of that? I did, yes. What people are not talking about is a bad code, a bad build. That's the one thing I'm happy. I'm not hearing about anything negative regarding the product itself, the delays. Yes. But about the product, people are kind of raving that. So that's good to see. And people are glad to see more than just the one came out, and then everyone's like, well, it's just the one. And now there was another owner, I guess, who created a Pinside account. Unboxing one. They did the unboxing. And so, you know, they are coming out.
    65:43
    Short squirts, but they're coming. Sure, sure. Are people going to be happy? I mean I sure they happier but until everyone is made whole of course there will always be those worries But I think it still is at least a little bit of confidence Speaking of spurting and squirting Chicago Gaming Company is doing the same thing Cactus Canyons are rolling out the SE model and we thought you know there's probably 500 or so that have been built of this SE. They're going to be transferring over to the LE line any time now. But per NAP Arcade, Butch Peel at the Northwest Conference Seminar this last weekend said that they're still waiting for parts for that topper. Now, remember, viewers, the topper goes on both the LE and the SE plus Epsilon. So I think you're going to see more SEs being built. I think you're right. And now we can finally have the full rage against toppers that this hobby really needs, I think. The topper is holding the game back. Oh.
    66:40
    Should have just done a sticker, Elvira style. So, yeah, I think we're still a couple months out for that LE. Maybe more. I'm starting to worry a little bit. Not that they're not going to ever make them, but just that it's going to be a while. It may be a while. Speaking of multi-morphic, if you're waiting for a weird owl, it may be a while. Because they're still struggling to get the parts. They're just struggling to get people to put them together. They're calling in Grandma, Aunt Teresa, and everybody else to come together. Put on your gloves, sweetie. And put together these one-third pinball play fields. but someone on Pennside did inquire to Jerry about the possibility of adding songs to their Weird Al they said you know I like the songs but where are the hits we need some more hits and they said have you ever considered Jerry buying the license to use more of the songs and maybe do like a paid content downloadable content for people interested and he didn't shrug it off he said yeah if there's a desire then very much so they could look into that what do you make of that uh i mean the system obviously would accommodate it you could argue multimorphic system the p3 system would accommodate dlc probably better than any other existing pinball platform that's out there but i again i i'm you know my gut would be this is like a humoring statement i don't because well and here's the thing this isn't you know this isn't metallica this isn't a jukebox game They customize the modes around the songs. That's the problem. It's not as simple as just getting the, in my view, if you want to keep the same quality that's currently in Weird Al, you can't just get new songs and throw them in. They'd have to make all new modes for those new songs, which, yeah, with a paid model would accommodate. But I just, it's already selling so well. Why would you do it? And you know that a coder can't help but to add song slash modes without at some point saying, if you do all of them, though, there's another wizard mode that you can only get to if you pay for those modes. Then you're going to see a lot of people getting angry. I mean, it's definitely possible. I just, it's not as simple as just adding the songs, though. It'd be a whole thing, be a whole ordeal. But they could do it. I don't think they'd worry about it, though, until they were done with all this production, though. And when it comes down to it, Dennis and listeners, sometimes in life, the best things aren't always simple or quick. Sometimes they're complex, production heavy.
    69:08
    Sometimes they're poorly thought out and just made up antidotally. And improvisational. And sometimes they're the biggest hit that the pinball industry has seen in media.
    69:19
    I've heard Rumor Corner has surpassed this. Fake news. Ladies and gentlemen, it's... I'm interrupting your intro. Pimba Market Trends! It's okay. I am room retained.
    69:46
    But to think... Pimba Market Trends doesn't have its own intro song. Does that hurt you? It's got a drum roll and an eagle, goddammit. That's all it needs. It does have an eagle. That is true. And it's got a screaming goat, too. Watch. See? Got that, too. Are you going to have a section of your pin barn where there will be goats? There might be a working ticker that goes around the ceiling.
    70:12
    Such a good idea with the ticker. It's so pointless in that space, though. It's not pointless in that space. It's such a waste of money. It's more data. I thought you liked numbers. You guys, you got to do something with all the windfall money you made during the pandemic. So I guess building a ticker is something you can do.
    70:29
    Training up this week as we just talked about it. How about that? It's Haggis' father revisited. Do you know how to let the air out of a man? Let it go. It's mermaid edition. The cord never bothered me anyway.
    70:45
    Look, I'm training them up. I'm not saying that they're at the peak and they're even higher. I'm saying that they've been struggling a little bit with the storylines in the last month or two with the delays and whatnot. And from where they're at, they have trended up. I mean, would you like to trend me like a worm?
    71:04
    Think about an MSRP of 9K plus shipping. The evaluation right now on a Mermaid Edition new in the box is 11K plus. So I'd say that's a positive trend. Would you not? I mean, not if you're a buyer.
    71:25
    Not if you're a buyer. That's right. Also trending up this week. Numbers don't lie. I only report the facts and everything points to the direction of up when it comes to the video edition of the pinball show. It's trending up in a big way, isn't it? Which is why Dennis didn't want to do it. No, I don't have anything against it trending up. Yeah. I mean, the numbers were huge for episode 100. and we only reported the facts to my knowledge. Might get a little kickback and a little anger, hostility from people about the truth, but some people can't handle the truth. Isn't that right, Jack? I think 20% of those commenters said that they thought I was like 80. I didn't get that. It's because my voice is so like reedy and nasally. I think it sounds old.
    72:14
    Yeah, I don't get that either. Well, we've talked a long time. You're my favorite deputy. They just think about, get off my lawn there.
    72:23
    Get off my lawn or I'll crush you like a worm. Oh, no, not that again. He's back. What is this? Look, people, email thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. Tell Dennis that you guys desperately want him back on video because one thing that we did not get to do, Dennis, that was at least 15% of why I wanted to go to video was I really wanted to play around with a production that we could have done for Nordman. oh my gosh I already my call it almost just maybe for those video things wouldn't it not maybe work better to just like do a separate video show this is see you know logically it does because the risk that we run with video is that you'll start to want to lean onto those visuals so much that it will undermine the audio only version of the show it's inevitable it happens this is why video shows that end up putting out audio podcasts usually give up because it ends up being a sucky experience yeah but things evolve that people love relationships grow no right sometimes we got to see our kids off to college and we have to nestle up on the porch together and sometimes the kids are dropouts well sometimes they are we're gonna pick them up at jail all right if we're gonna turn bad i guess we'll turn bad with trending down trending down this week is stern pinball's deadpool pro there's no way No. Hold up. No. What the hell? What's your justification here, Zach? Yeah, Zach, sounds made up.
    73:51
    All right. I'm going to my Fiverr station here. What's the deal with the whole Deadpool? Okay, so he's saying that Deadpool Pro is super high right now. That is true. But over the last week or so, as more have been coming out and coming into the marketplace, they did a pretty big build of Deadpool Pros. You're starting to see them pretty heavy on the secondary market. And from where that exponential dollar price that they were bringing on the secondary market with people waiting over a year for them, you ship out hundreds more, and yes, you're going to see that price come down just a little bit. So that's why. It's still more than MSRP on the secondary market, but it's still a little bit lower than it was over the last two weeks. And that's just data, people. That's numbers. I'm not here. I'm just here to report the facts. All trending down this week is Lior's new Iron Maiden mod. Wait, the Oracle? The Oracle. I like Lior's mods. I love mods in general. And this one looks fantastic.
    74:49
    Fiverr, statistician, are you a topper hater? Are you a mod hater? What's wrong? Okay, so they said, sure, it looks great, but bejesus that price. Oh, okay. I can agree with them there. It does look good. But $400 for a little figurine to be added into your... That's less than half a topper. Yeah, but it's not as impactful. And that's just a sticker with a coil.
    75:18
    Size matters. Yeah, it looks good, but $389 only to have one of the most delayed mods since Star Wars Hopper? Hey, look, Leor has great work, but when he announces something, you'll be lucky to see it in 8 to 12 months. people are waiting for the Hobbit topper still.
    75:44
    All I'm saying is the price, the weight, and his limiting. I'm limiting it to 500 pieces. You're not going to sell 500 pieces of a $400 Oracle. But JJP did this for years. I'll have 5,000 LEs. And only now did they get close to selling them with a hit. This is not the GNR hit that is going to get them to 500 pieces. Calling the mod the Oracle, though, just makes me think of Matrix.
    76:13
    I want that game. I want this mod to put a cookie in my mouth when I make the shot. Would it be worth $400 then, if it came with one sleeve of cookies? You know it's bad when I say, a little bit too much for that.
    76:30
    Honestly, I was surprised to hear you bring this one up. Yeah, because I went to buy it. The pricing. because he just released pictures of the Godzilla Premium LE Bridge, and that was under $200, and I went, bam, put in my purchase quick on that. And I think it was limited to more pieces, which doesn't make sense. This limited to 500. Then I went to this, and I was like, holy shit, that looks great too. Went to buy it, and I saw $380, and I was like, meh. Even there's a limit for Ozaki. And maybe I'll regret it later, but 500 doesn't feel limited for an old game like that and a piece that is not a must-have. People have already redone that crystal ball area. Eh, I don't know. It's just where I'm at on it. So that's your ups, that's your downs. You want to save a buck or two, jump on over to Deals of the Week. Buy, buy, buy! Deals of the Week this week can be found on Pennside. It's the Jersey Jack Pinball Wizard of Oz. It's not the yellow brick, so I'm not as interested. Is it a ruby red? It's a ruby red. It is a ruby red. right out of San Francisco,
    77:32
    ADOL75, ADOL75 is selling a Wizard of Oz Ruby Red, first owner. Bought it in May 2018. It was delivered, 2.0 light boards, so everything checks out. It looks great. Let's see, what else? LE number 1491. They're asking 12.8 for it, which in this market, I don't think is horrible, especially if you've been looking for what is probably arguably the prettiest version and the most up-to-date with a 2.0 light board system of Wizard of Oz. So I think it's good. The only issue that I've seen on this game, the upper play field was chipping in a certain area on the edge. But, eh, you can always get another extra play field and repopulate that little thing. Not a big deal. So for 12.8, okay. I could repopulate a mini play field. Have you ever repopulated a play field? Not a full one, but a mini one. I think I could handle that. I probably wouldn't. I'm just chipping in. I've never really done it. Well, I guess maybe my dad and I, for my brother-in-law, were working on a black knight. I guess technically we did probably fully strip that play field and then put it all back together. It doesn't look like fun. No, it wasn't. But this one's not like an – it doesn't affect the ball. It is small. for 12.8 I think if you can get this game for lower 12s I think pick it up, it's a pretty good buy buy buy! did someone bounty your radical yet? no nobody bounding my radical why don't you just buy one and send it to Hep and just be done with it you know not a bad idea but I don't even know if Hep could get some of this stuff I need to call him does anybody know Chris really well? he's Chris isn't he? Chris Hutchins? reach out to him see if he can redo a radical maybe i do that damn dennis you might have just earned yourself a bounty i didn't find the game i don't think it qualifies nicely done yeah i just did they're not out there i can't find a good one i'm still looking for a yellow brick road was can't find that either amanda hamilton by amanda hamilton's no she won't come off of it i thought she's been like she's got polls and stuff up talking about like what should they get rid of and that's what's winning yeah to make room for one uh toy story or whatever she's looking for buddy yeah i don't i don't know what that is dennis what do you think your next game is going to be that you're going to buy oh gosh um you know i i hadn't really thought about it are you thinking like are you wanting like a new game i just didn't know if you're if you're going for a newer game you think or do you think you'll get rid of an older one and keep an older I mean, yeah, there's I have a whole list on Pinside of stuff I've been watching for that I would unload an older game and probably bring in none of it's super new, like Dialed In's been on the list for a while that, or getaway high speed 2 is one that's been there your favorite, Dracula with all the exploits and broken code I wouldn't mind Dialed In either pinball tapes reference, maybe a Sinbad. Oh.
    80:48
    We've got part two that just came out of that. We'll talk about that. Part two. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just wondering. That's all. Just wondering. Yeah, new-wise, I have been debating a Jurassic Park for a while, but after getting Godzilla, I'm not really in the mood for another Elwynn in my limited lineup. Sure. So, for new stuff, I really just need to see some of the actual stuff I've not seen yet. Maybe you get the next JJP. Maybe, but again, I have not seen Toy Story because surely it's Toy Story. I haven't seen any photos of it, so I don't know yet.
    81:19
    And I'd have to play it first, too. But if it's Pat Lawler, so far, I mean, my two favorite JJP games in order are Dialed In and then Wonka.
    81:30
    Wonka could have been so good if only they had done those multicolored pinballs. And as always, ladies and gentlemen, I'm just here to report the facts. I can't give away too much information because numbers never lie here on the pinball shows. Pinball Market Trends.
    81:54
    All right, Dennis, let's close her down. Good. So what's your personal address, social security number, and telephone for people? Oh, I already gave that to the Nigerian Prince, so this will work out really well for me. How's that return coming? I'm sure it's going to come any day now. I checked my bank. It only seems to be going down, but surely at some point that ACH is going to hit. It's going to fall. At some point it's going to work. It's going to be fine. People can reach out to me. I was just going to say, where can people reach you? Oh, well, they can always reach me via email, eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com. Also, pretty easy to go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast and shoot a message through the Messenger app. Oh, look at you expanding, growing. your podcast doesn't need a Facebook messenger why can't you just leave it as when it is? Gmail account, do you want to go video?
    82:48
    poor Zach, he just decides to totally change formats and is upset when everyone doesn't fully embrace it all the time I was just like, let me do since you did such a good impression of me let me do you I used to do straight down the middle, the Greg's never available. I gotta do it. Let's just twist Dennis' arm and make the pinball show into a video show so it can be on camera like I always wanted. I love that I turned... I'm a star, damn it. A star. I need a stage. I could have been a contender. I just... I love that I turned into old Peter Pan from the Chip and Dale's, the new movie. He's like a washed up con artist. Just old Peter Pan. Got the stubble on his chin. I wouldn't spend my own no Lear mod.
    83:37
    Let it go. Let it go, guys. My evil plan of weaving gold on this one, viewer, I'm going to let you behind the curtains here, was I'm going to create such a dynamic and wonderful video pinball show that Dennis will have no choice but to be like, you know what? Damn, that was good. I've got to do it. But in regular creasal fashion, we'll have to wait and see if we can warm up to him. Email us at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. Let us know if you do like the video format or ultimately, Dennis doesn't give a shit what you're going to say, even if it's 98 to 1. 98 to 2. There's one I decided. But I'd still be interested to hear what you guys have to say about it. We can do it quarterly.
    84:23
    Those are going to be big shows. They always are. People don't know what Zach was like. You know, I think we can get this down to 45 minutes and i'm like zach do you know you hell no you will never get it down to 45 minutes i don't think you could do 45 minutes solo if people knew how much time went into editing those two episodes oh my god that's part of the reason i'm like god my god poor raymond davidson is messaging in all the time like why is the show late why is the show that's i'm sure how he sounds why is the show feature-length film ready and zach's like you can't rush quality i know give me a break i'm an artist damn it rescue ranger flipping out pinball is a sponsor here and be on the be on the lookout for the flipping out ball whenever I'm not editing videos I might be able to put that all together and product showcase this week is a rush pro pre-owned go buy that I've got a lot of I actually have a new inbox Avengers premium snag that or GNR new inbox or I've got a lot of pre-owned games we just got in a Star Wars pro comic we just got in another Tommy a Batman Forever pre-owned not working so you get it a lot cheaper so I don't have to mess with it we got a lot of stuff there toppers etc we don't have Elvira toppers sorry those already went out Shaker Motors got those back in Banners, Golden Tees, IJ toppers etc etc last week at TPN Dennis the Aussie Pinball Podcast episode 4 with Jimmy Niles that was Dr. Jones podcast as well as Pinball Tapes episode 3 Sinbad part 2 Wait a minute. That was an interesting little change-up that Zach over there did. I think people are going to like that one. That's neat, bringing in somebody else and just riffing while playing a pinball machine about Sinbad. And the Wild Dog Arcade streamed new code for Funhouse Rudy's Nightmare last week. A lot of fun. This week, Dennis and Lesnar, we've got some events. Well, Pride Pinball is doing a charity stream for Pride Month the week of June 13th through the 18th. So that's a week from now. But mark it on your calendars so that you don't miss out on that. We'll probably get another final round this week. We may get another, I don't know about free play, triple drain probably. There's nothing but the hits here at the Pinball Network. Yay. So for Dennis Creasel, I'm video version of Zach Minney. And always remember, folks, if you're not having fun anymore in a pinball tournament and you're not allowed to just resort to breakdance fighting, you've got to turn to the other staple. It's a walk-off. And always practice safe pinball, and this one goes out to Josh Sharp. When it comes to competitive pinball, the IFPA, trying to keep people around for an entire weekend, much less a one-on-one match for four hours. Some people got us to poop. Let it go. Cole never bothered me anyway.
    87:29
    See you guys next week. Up. Hear you guys next week more like it. Who's your guest next week? I don't have one.
    87:41
    Act like I plan these things out. Do a video one next week Your guest has like a 320p potato camera. I know. Standard definition, motherfucker. That's going to be bad. CRT.