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Ep 19: Fight Night

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 51m·analyzed·Oct 21, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Zach Sharpe discusses Stern's manufacturing strategy, licensor partnerships, and competitive content plans.

Summary

Final Round Pinball Podcast Episode 19 features an interview with Zach Sharpe, Zach Sharpe, recorded weeks before but aired after the Guns N' Roses announcement. Sharp discusses Stern's manufacturing pivots during COVID, the Avengers and Turtles launches with major licensor involvement, Stern's competitive event strategy (Heads Up Challenge), and production scheduling. Key topics include the premium-to-pro demand ratio, multi-line production capacity, licensor relationships, and Stern's marketing evolution toward mainstream audiences.

Key Claims

  • Stern always starts production with PRO models first, then LEs, then Premiums

    high confidence · Zach Sharpe directly corrected hosts' assumptions about manufacturing order

  • Due to COVID, Stern pivoted to smaller runs of PRO models and larger LE/Premium runs for Turtles and Avengers

    high confidence · Zach Sharpe explained pandemic-driven production adjustments

  • Stern received a 5:1 Premium-to-Pro demand ratio for Avengers (per four distributors)

    high confidence · Host Martin cited distributor feedback; Sharp acknowledged but noted export market complexity

  • Marvel's official Instagram announcement of Avengers pinball reached 300,000+ views in 48 hours and 100,000+ likes in a day

    high confidence · Zach Sharpe cited specific social media metrics from Marvel's announcement

  • Stern has multiple production lines, allowing new games to be developed while filling backorders

    high confidence · Zach Sharpe explained production scheduling to address backorder concerns

  • Stern is near or at 100% production capacity despite pandemic shutdowns

    medium confidence · Zach Sharpe stated 'I think we're getting near, if not near 100%' but acknowledged he's not often on the factory floor

  • Avengers launch was the first Stern reveal not leaked before official announcement

    high confidence · Host Martin observed; Zach Sharpe did not deny

  • Stern was originally planning a giant Heads Up!! in-person at Comic-Con before COVID forced a virtual pivot

    high confidence · Zach Sharpe detailed original Comic-Con plans and subsequent virtual production

Notable Quotes

  • “I think I deserve a nice little vacation break, and I just hope that the games are just being built without me physically being in the state of Illinois. I kind of did my job, and now production and manufacturing takes care of the rest.”

    Zach Sharpe @ ~12:00 — Sharp jokingly delegates responsibility to manufacturing, implying his marketing work is complete and production execution is now critical

  • “Pros always come first, then LEs, then premiums. You can call yourself an expert. Do some research.”

    Zach Sharpe @ ~13:00 — Direct correction of host assumption, establishing Stern's standard production hierarchy

  • “I would say a little bit of both. I mean, I don't want to minimize the amount of work I do behind the scenes. And I always like to say marketing is a thankless job. Usually you'll get panned on if something goes wrong, but if everything goes right, you don't really get kudos either.”

    Zach Sharpe @ ~30:00 — Reflects on the nature of marketing work and how success is often invisible

  • “If you try to argue with the Internet, everyone loses.”

    Zach Sharpe @ ~55:00 — Sharp's philosophy on engaging with social media critics, explaining why he doesn't publicly rebut community suggestions

  • “Every license is different just in terms of approvals... The Beatles, it's four different parties that are approving something.”

    Zach Sharpe @ ~40:00 — Illustrates complexity of multi-party IP approvals and how licensing varies by licensor

  • “Marvel reached out to me directly and was just like, hey, is it okay if we push back the launch by, you know, at least a day, if not potentially more [after Chadwick Boseman's death], and it's like, you know, absolutely.”

    Zach Sharpe @ ~45:00 — Demonstrates licensor-manufacturer partnership in responding to real-world events

  • “It was definitely intentionally meant for a more casual audience, no doubt... this is where the pivot of a COVID life happened.”

    Zach Sharpe — Clarifies Heads Up Challenge's design goal to reach mainstream audiences, not just competitive pinball players

Entities

Zach Sharpeperson[name withheld pending review]personMartin RobbinspersonStern PinballcompanyMarvelcompanyNickelodeoncompanyKeithpersonGaryperson

Signals

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Stern reports operating near or at 100% production capacity despite pandemic disruptions, with multiple production lines allowing concurrent game development and backorder fulfillment

    medium · Sharp stated 'I think we're getting near, if not near 100%' but also acknowledged being infrequent at the factory floor; referenced pandemic shutdown period of 1.5-2 months that created backlog

  • $

    market_signal: Premium model demand significantly outpaces Pro model demand (5:1 ratio per distributor feedback), suggesting home collectors drive current market more than location operators

    high · Four distributors cited 5:1 Premium-to-Pro interest ratio for Avengers; Sharp acknowledged trend but noted export markets and undisclosed Pro sales complicate picture

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern adjusted manufacturing hierarchy due to COVID venue closures: smaller Pro runs with larger LE/Premium batches for Turtles and Avengers, reversing typical commercial-first strategy

    high · Sharp explained: 'a smaller run of pros followed by LEs, maybe sprinkling in some more pros than then premiums' due to location closures and limited capacity

  • ?

    business_signal: Licensor relationships vary significantly in approval authority and involvement; some licensors (Marvel, Nickelodeon) are hands-on partners, others simply approve style guidelines; multi-party approvals (e.g., Beatles) increase coordination burden

    high · Sharp detailed how Marvel coordinated launch timing, Nickelodeon planned unique events, and Beatles require four separate party approvals; contrasted with licensors who 'don't care' about launch dates

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.336

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:39
Hello once again, my name is Jeff Teolas. My name is Martin Robbins. Welcome everybody to episode 19 of the Final Round Pinball Podcast. Do you know in many places in Canada here, 19 is the legal drinking age? I don't know what it is in Australia. It is 18. I think in honor of that, you've had a few it seems. How dare you let everybody know Yeah, I've had a big night Did you? Yes, I did, you know I did And when I mentioned it to you, you said, and I quote, hmm, I need to write that down What are you talking about? The point is, we are recording this after Expo was done, the virtual Expo We'll get to that, we definitely want to talk about that For sure First of all, bravo, but we will really get into some details about that. But we've had a chance to watch it. We were a part of it. And we have a special guest we want to get to. And I do want to thank our guest because we actually recorded him three, four weeks ago. And, you know, with the Guns N' Roses announcement last week and the timeliness of that, we postponed this interview for this week, which was the right thing to do, I believe. And we got a good one. Yeah, we do. So this is Zach Sharp from Stone Pinball Marketing Director. Is that what his title is? That's what they gave him. That's what it says on the business card. That's what he gave himself. Well, why not, right? He prints the business cards. You're head of marketing. You get to call yourself whatever you like. Does he have like a magic wand? I deem you, programmer, I deem you. It could be. But, you know, you've spoken to Zach before. We had him on head-to-head before. He's just great to talk to.
2:33
His ability to give you, in words, a non-answer, but it's actually a real answer if you understand what he's not saying. This is a long interview. I wonder how many times he says, I can neither confirm nor deny that. We'll have to find out. That should be a drinking game. Oh, no, you don't want to drink anymore. No, please, no more. No more. I showed you the empty bottles that's right next to me. I don't need any more. Was that an empty bottle? I thought it was a pool that had the water drained. It was huge.
@ ~90:00

  • “I mean, it's pretty incredible to see, and even my wife was watching for a little bit, and she's like, wait, are they in the same room? And it's like, nope. All of that is all separate and kind of cobbled together.”

    Zach Sharpe @ ~95:00 — Shows that the Heads Up Challenge virtual production successfully deceived casual observers about technical limitations

    • Jodyperson
    Chadwick Bosemanperson
    Corey Hulseperson
    Greg Pavarelliperson
    Alex Wardperson
    Scott Larsonperson
    Guns N' Rosesproduct
    The Avengersproduct
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesproduct
    Black Knight Sword of Rageproduct
    The Beatlesproduct
    Heads Up Challengeevent
    Stern Armyorganization
    Comic-Conevent
    Final Round Pinball Podcastorganization

    content_signal: Stern's Heads Up Challenge represents deliberate effort to make pinball appealing to casual/non-enthusiast audiences; virtual pivot during COVID preserved budget/investment; production quality impressed non-pinball viewers

    high · Sharp stated it was 'definitely intentionally meant for a more casual audience'; cited wife's positive reaction to production; hosts noted format 'most appealing to newcomers'

  • ?

    marketing_signal: Marvel's official announcement of Avengers pinball achieved massive engagement: 300k+ views and 100k+ likes in 48 hours, demonstrating power of major IP partnership for mainstream visibility

    high · Sharp cited Marvel Instagram metrics: 'over 300,000 views in 48 hours' and 'over 100,000 likes in a day' from official post on 90+ million follower account

  • ?

    leak_detection: Avengers launch was first Stern announcement in recent memory not leaked before official reveal, suggesting improved information security or luck

    high · Host Martin stated: 'it was such a great launch for a number of reasons, but I thought it was the first launch where it hadn't been leaked before'; Sharp did not dispute

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Licensor approvals and constraints significantly shape game development timelines and marketing strategy; ideas are sometimes declined by licensors, limiting design/marketing freedom

    high · Sharp referenced 'limitations, whether it's time constraints or licensor constraints' and noted 'that licensor declined' regarding ideas that seemed ideal

  • ?

    event_signal: Stern's original plan for large in-person Heads Up Tournament at Comic-Con was cancelled due to COVID; team pivoted to virtual production while preserving prize machine giveaway

    high · Sharp explained: planned 'giant heads up tournament in person at Comic-Con' but 'everything got canceled' so 'we were brainstorming' and did 'something virtually'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Chadwick Boseman's death prompted Marvel to request Avengers pinball announcement delay out of respect, demonstrating licensor-manufacturer collaboration in response to real-world events

    high · Sharp: 'Marvel reached out to me directly' requesting delay 'if not potentially more' after Boseman's passing; Stern agreed without resistance

  • ?

    business_signal: License agreements vary: some are renewed, some are one-time deals; three-year terms mentioned as reference point but not standard

    medium · Sharp stated: 'It depends... sometimes licenses will get renewed, or depending on the licensor, it is just a one-time deal'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Stern's organization includes marketing (Zach Sharp), programming/design (Keith), senior leadership (Gary), and production/manufacturing tiers with managers overseeing output

    medium · Sharp mentioned Gary as superior who reviews press releases, Keith as designer, Jody as content ideator, and 'production and floor managers' executing manufacturing

    • 3:09
    It might as well have been. It was a big night. Wow. Okay. You know what? This is the interview we did with Zach a while back, and we certainly appreciate Zach coming on the program. And Marty, as you know, people come to this program to learn from, humbly, two of the experts in everything, all things pinball. Correct? Well, that's us, yes. So we sometimes bring on guests. Sometimes they have things to offer as well. Or sometimes they just want to learn from the masters. You decide which one it is here. Our next guest, the director of marketing from Stern Pinball, a little company you might have heard of, Zach Sharp joins us. Hello, Zach. Howdy, boys. How are you doing, man? You got me at a vulnerable state. I am exhausted. I just finished a 17-hour street drive overnight across the coast. So, doing well. Just tired. Wow. All just to get away from your brother. Wow. Exactly.
    4:06
    Well, probably to get away from the madness that is probably stern at the moment because you've got a couple of hits on your hand. So, I'd imagine demand is up and your talents are needed. considerably at the moment. You know what? I think I deserve a nice little vacation break, and I just hope that the games are just being built without me physically being in the state of Illinois. I kind of did my job, and now production and manufacturing takes care of the rest. Okay, everyone who's employed at Stern, who's listening to this right now, Zach has basically just said, he's done his part, only you can screw it up. It's out of Zach's hands now. You know what? Keith better not mess up that code. with Raymond. I mean, it's in the palm of their hands. Can I ask you about how the manufacturing works? Because I've talked to different distributors too, and it makes sense that the first thing you make are the LEs. They pay the biggest price. They should have their games first. I totally get that. But then I believe, in most cases, and I believe that's the case with Turtles and definitely with Avengers, you then start to build some pro models and then go to the premiums. Is that safe to say? No, we always start off with the pros. Yeah, pros come first. Pros come first. Seriously. You can call yourself an expert. Do some research. One of us is, apparently. Yeah, you know, pros always come first, then LEs, then premiums. Is that right? Yep. Okay, I might not be an expert. Forgive me, because I'm not there in Chicago. But, yeah, just to give you some insight there. So, you know, we definitely always start off with the pro because, you know, we want to help out the commercial market. But in this COVID life that we're living in, you know, we've pivoted a little bit and, you know, especially with Turtles where, you know, it's a smaller run of pros followed by LEs, maybe sprinkling in some more pros than then premiums. And, you know, similar with Avengers, I'm sure it'll be somewhat similar where it's a very small number of pros because, you know, a lot of commercial establishments are on hiatus or at limited capacity. So it's not pre-COVID where it's like hundreds and thousands of launch parties all over the world taking place because all locations are open, but, you know, it's scaled back a little bit. I like to say it's like a dimmer switch where, you know, it's maybe slowly moving up, but in some places it might be slowly going down. You brought up the point I was trying to make exactly in the sense that because we are in this pandemic right now, and unfortunately, sadly, there's not as much location pinball going on right now, I wondered about that pivot. So that's why I thought, okay, the LEs are maybe going out first. And then I thought maybe the premiums too. And I bring that up specifically about Avengers because from people I have talked to, and I've talked to four different distributors, I will not mention any of their names, the premium to pro ratio is about 5 to 1 as far as the interest in premiums versus pros. By the way, the pro is a spectacular game. This isn't a slight on the pro. It's just that there is such a different level compared to other Stern games of what has been added to a premium than other premium to pros. Keith is a very smart man. He knows how to design a very good machine. So that's why when I asked about the manufacturing, wouldn't you then flip to building more premiums than pros when you said pros are the first things out?
    7:34
    Just because people are saying that the demand is necessarily 5 to 1, it doesn't give the broad picture. I mean, we've got an export market as well. So who's to say what's the number one selling out of the three versions? We will never know. Well, except that we'll know that the LEs, that the numbers for those, it's really the only ones that we ever know. Yeah, that's true. So what does this mean for you as director of marketing when it comes to a title like Avengers, which is just hyped off the scale? Like the response to that has just been phenomenal. And it was for Turtles as well. What does that mean for you in your capacity when you have to market this? Does it make it easier for you? You go, you know what? The people are doing it all for me. Or do you still have to work just as hard? or is it there's even more work because there's more communication required because of the demand? I would say a little bit of both. I mean, I don't want to minimize the amount of work I do behind the scenes. And I always like to say marketing is a thankless job. Usually you'll get panned on if something goes wrong, but if everything goes right, you don't really get kudos either. You just drive 17 hours to Maine and you go, hey, I've done my part. I get it. Yeah, go on. That's true. You know, my wife took, you know, most, like, half of the trips.
    8:56
    Though with the games, I will always say that, you know, the designers, the programmers, and the artists, they ultimately make my job easier because they make such a fantastic product that it just makes marketing so much easier. It's easy to do a sizzle trailer. It's easy to write a press release and put together all these sales materials on, you know, these incredible-looking machines where if it wasn't a good game or it didn't look pretty, then, you know, I might have my work cut out for me a little bit harder. But I think it's just a team effort all around that makes, you know, the launch of these games. And I don't want to minimize a licensor's relationship as well. I mean, you look at the launch with Avengers and, you know, every game launch is going to be different in its rollout. And it was great to sync up directly with Marvel and have the official Marvel social media channels with 90 plus million people doing the official announcement and reveal to the world. I mean, last I checked, and I know in 48 hours, the game trailer on their Instagram page had over 300,000 views in 48 hours, which is insane. And, I mean, they did an Instagram post of their live stream, and it had over 100,000 likes in a day. And, I mean, you look at those numbers elsewhere, and it's, I mean, it's bananas. So I think it always helps when we can work with our partners even more so than just our small pinball bubble. Can I then talk about the launch? We sort of mentioned it, that it was such a great launch for a number of reasons, but I thought it was the first launch where it hadn't been leaked before. That Marvel video, the post that came up, was the first time that we saw it, which was great. I want to ask you this question because constantly people keep saying, oh, you know, Stern deliberately leaked these things. I know behind the scenes that's not the case, but I just want you to put that rumour to bed. You don't purposely leak these things. You know, I don't want to make a blanket answer to that, but I would say more often than not, we're not trying to intentionally leak and potentially ruin licensure relationships. How about I'll just leave it at that. Because you work with your partners, in this case Marvel, and with recent titles, you know, let's say Iron Maiden, you're dealing with that band or Jurassic Park, a movie studio, whatever the case may be. Is it the partner that mainly dictates the release date, Or do you have suggestions and try to come to some common ground? It's both. I mean, again, every licensor is different just in terms of approvals. I mean, you look at a band and there's multiple members, and it's not just one entity that's approving something. It's multiple. So, you know, the Beatles, it's four different parties that are approving something. So it really varies and it depends. and with, you know, Avengers, we worked really close with them on the launch and the announcement and when, unfortunately, Chadwick Boseman passed away, you know, Marvel reached out to me directly and was just like, hey, is it okay if we push back the launch by, you know, at least a day, if not potentially more, and it's like, you know, absolutely. I mean, we want you guys to be happy with this launch and we are partners in this announcement, So, I mean, it is ultimately your call. We're not going to dictate to Marvel, like, hey, no, you cannot go on your social media blackout or highlighting, you know, Black Panther and stuff. So, you know, just working closely with them, I mean, things pivot. Like, I'll always say every launch is different because you just never know at the 25th hour what can happen, and you just have to be prepared to pivot and roll with it. So how much does the licensor need to know about your marketing strategy and how you're going to release the machine? Do they have to approve that? Yeah, it depends. I mean, like I said, some licensors are much more integral with those discussions and others might not care as much. And it's kind of like, yep, you can just launch it whenever you want or hit case in point with another altered strategy. But we did have a fun activation announcement with Nickelodeon for Turtles that unfortunately got canned because of a global pandemic. But we were going to be doing a really cool event in New York right by Nickelodeon. And it was going to be like a surprise launch event. But COVID happened and no in-person travel and et cetera, et cetera. But that was we were working closely with the licensor on doing a cool, unique launch. And that's not always the case with every licensor because, you know, with some of them, they might just, you know, kind of check the boxes. It's like, yep, you follow the style guideline. Great. Looks good. Oh, you're going to launch on a Tuesday or Wednesday. Don't care. Great. Everything looks brand compliant. Good to go. Versus, you know, Nickelodeon or Marvel, they're a little more hands-on and it's fun because then, you know, sometimes they bring ideas to the table as well. So you have things, hopefully not like pandemics, but just life-changing things. You mentioned Chadwick Boseman passing away. That obviously pushed things further as far as Avengers being released. You probably have a set list of here are the target dates for these machines, these designers. Here's what we're looking for in the next five, ten titles, whatever the case may be. Let's go backwards because I'm not going to ask you about the future. How often do those titles and the dates in which they were going to be released switch for whatever circumstances? Yeah, I mean, I would say less often than more often. Do you have multiple machines pretty much ready to go? You just have to stagger them out? No, I mean, we follow our internal schedule really well because it's not just the design. I mean, you have to think about all the artwork, all the programming, all the LCD animations. it's not just easy to flick a switch and, you know, switch teams because you're already going down a path of getting all of those assets ready. Now, sometimes there might be an extenuating circumstance where, you know, there might be a new designer on a game and you do have to shift things around. But I would say that's more of an exception than the rule. I mean, we stick pretty closely to the order of, you know, when the games are supposed to come out. But, again, you know, sometimes there's extenuating circumstances that it would need to shift, but I'd say that's less often than more. So one thing I've noticed, particularly on social media, is that there are a lot of marketing experts in the pinball community, right? Social media.
    15:47
    I think we mentioned it last week. We do a podcast, therefore we are marketing experts. But this is a really pointy question to you, Zach. What is it that you've done? What are your qualifications? Why are you a marketing expert compared to somebody that's sitting behind a keyboard trying to tell Stern how to do their marketing?
    16:08
    Well, I'll never say I'm an expert at anything I do, but I'm always learning. I mean, I went to school for marketing, so I think that definitely helps my background, and I worked in global marketing agencies around the world. Where did you go to school? I went to the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. Let me just check the AMA. You know that, the American Marketing Association, see what they say about that. Okay, not bad. All right, go on. No, I mean, I would say it's funny when you are, and I know this just because before I worked at Stern, just having insight to the process and how things roll out and, you know, sometimes the limitations, whether it's time constraints or licensor constraints, where in a perfect world, it's like, man, I would have done that. And it's like, yeah, that sounds like a fantastic idea that we already thought of that the licensor declined. And, you know, not everyone has that visibility. And I don't need to get on my soapbox and correct people because if you try to argue with the Internet, everyone loses. But I'm not going to be ignorant to say that I don't have things to learn. I mean, if you're not evolving and learning new things every day, then you're just never going to learn from previous mistakes. I'm always reading literature, not just in the pinball community, but, you know, outside of just like marketing best practices. and I'm constantly trying to evolve and implement ideas and learning new ways of reaching new markets, whether through social media, PR, you name it. Okay, so you say you're learning. What is the biggest mistake you've made in your current role other than coming on this podcast?
    17:56
    I think you nailed it. Other than that? Oh, God, I'm trying to think. Come on, be humble. I think my biggest mistake might have been using a word that Gary doesn't like in a press release and getting my hand slapped on that. That might have been, and that's not even something that anyone would notice, but it's just more of a Gary Pepys, and I was like, all right, well, it's like a kid that touches a hot stove. It's like, all right, I'm not going to make that mistake again. What was the word? I'm dying to know. I don't even want to say. We'll leave that up to the audience to guess. Yeah, everyone's now going to be looking at all the previous press releases trying to be like a scavenger hunt. What is the opposite of vodka?
    18:41
    He's not a gin fan. I'm sorry, Marty. No, I know. When I spoke to him on Head to Head, I questioned him about that because gin is very similar to vodka, and he's like, nah, not interested. Okay, fine. I won't send you a case of gin then. And I didn't.
    18:58
    Because we are in a pandemic, I'm wondering about production of games. And earlier in this podcast, you mentioned exporting games and the order in which they come. We haven't been at full capacity in a lot of different places in the world. I would imagine Illinois is the same there. So are you at 100%? Where would you say you're at as far as producing games? Because I do know that a lot of the distributors are looking for these games, more so outside of the United States. I've seen a lot of success in the United States. Marty's in Australia. Yeah, obviously there's a huge shipping thing there. Here in Canada, it's been tough to get games, not just from Stern, but from other companies as well, too. Are we close to 100%? I think we're close. You know, I am not in the factory that often. I've been there, you know, twice in the last six months, so I'm not on the ground floor. But I know that our production and floor managers are doing everything in their power and safely, you know, following the guidelines and trying to produce as many games as we can. But I think we're getting near, if not near 100%, but the demand has just been crazy and just trying to fill back orders. Because you have to remember, even if we were at 100% right now, I mean, we had that stay-at-home orders shut down for, was it almost two months or a month and a half? So you think about completely stalling. I mean, we're still receiving orders, but we are not making gains for nearly two full months. So you extrapolate that plus new games, and it's definitely a balancing act that I don't envy in terms of just dealing with production and trying to fill containers for export, but also filling domestic orders. So it's definitely a dance. And not only that, but logistically shipping them from the factory is another ball of wax. So because we may or may not be at 100% and you talked about back orders and whatnot, When you release a new game, and thankfully you did in Avengers because we all love it, now that adds another game which can only add to that backorder. Would you not take the time to, okay, let's finish what we've got on backorder because this now will only add to that backorder? Well, I mean, we've got multiple lines, so there's no reason to completely stall development on new games. And every license is different, but, I mean, we're also under contract. So you have a window of a period of a licensure agreement to sell a product. Why would you sit on it and not build it when you can build it in that window of time? You're cutting off some of those months that you could be producing it if you delay it. I see it. Okay, thanks. I didn't know that. Was it fair to say that this is how it felt like to me that even though I know you don't put dates in, firm dates that say we are going to release a cornerstone on this particular date three times a year whatever it is but it kind of felt that the really the impact was on turtles maybe not being revealed or available as we would normally expect maybe a little bit later but then back on track with avengers is that fair to say yeah that's fair to say yeah okay so having multiple lines means that even though you've got a delay, it's not holding up production of the next machine. Yeah. Okay. So we said we were going to test you on your marketing knowledge, all right? You already threw out some matchbox school that you went to. I have no idea what the credentials of that were. But anyway. The four Ps, man. The four Ps. That's all you need to know about marketing, the four Ps. What are the four Ps? I don't even know off the top of my head. Is it like price, product? Pinball, profile, what else? Yeah, pinball. There you go.
    22:44
    Okay, so we did ask on our Facebook and social media. We said, okay, we're going to be talking to Zach. He is going to have to answer these questions. We will not accept. I can neither confirm or deny. We will not ask you about things in the future. We respect that. But there are some people that have questions, and I'm going to give you one right now. Okay? Put on your marketing cap. I know you just drove 17 hours, but wake up, grab a Red Bull. Time to be tested. All right, let's go. Hopefully Gary's not listening. I don't want to get my hands left. I'm just hoping we say the magic word. Trust me. That would just make me so happy. All right. Maybe it's one of these three. Rank these in order of most important, Zach. Respect, honesty, and friendship. There are no ties. Rank them. Most important to least important. What was it? Respect.
    23:37
    Honesty and friendship. There is a correct answer, by the way. There is a correct answer. I would go with number one. It kind of goes hand in hand, but whatever. Friendship, number one. Honesty, number two. Respect, number three.
    23:58
    What does that mean? Well, to me, honesty is number one. How can honesty not be the most important thing? I mean, I think it kind of goes hand in hand with friendship. That's the least important. Friendship is the least important? Yeah, that's because Jeff doesn't have any friends.
    24:15
    It's lovely. It's great to have friends. I have several, at least five. But does it matter at the end of the day when you're trying to do your job? You want to be honest with the people you work with? You want to earn their respect because you're doing a good job? Friendship, eh. It's a bonus. I guess, you know what? I was thinking of that more like life philosophy, not from like a marketing perspective. So I guess I have to be a little bit more focused. My apologies. Yeah. Well, it was a marketing question. Oh, guess I didn't teach you that at school. Anyway, Marty, your turn. Okay, so I've got one from Scott Larson. He says, how exhausting is it for Stern to make three to five games per year when others take three to five years per game? From a marketing perspective, about as exhausting as that car trip just was, where it's a lot of material that I'm putting together, getting approvals on, and managing a website amongst many other roles and responsibilities. You know what, though? It keeps me engaged, and it is never a dull moment. But there would also be times where you are overlapping, meaning you're working on two different machines, two different licenses, two different licensors and materials at the one time. That's also going to be pretty exhausting, getting your head into each of those different brands at the same time. Well, think about it. Take a step back. How many games do we currently have in production? Because it doesn't stop after you announce it. You know, we're doing promotions to keep a game in the limelight, working on making videos, doing any kind of cool promotional tie-ins for titles that have been out for two years, three years. So any game in production is fair game for marketing activities. You mentioned three years. Is that kind of the license you typically go for, you or Jody? It depends. Again, you know, like sometimes licenses will get renewed, or depending on the licensor, it is just a one-time deal. Corey Hulse, who runs PinFest, we know from Allentown. He was a guest on Final Round earlier. With the recent Heads Up Challenge broadcast being a pretty neat thing that Stern has produced, what do you see as the next steps for capturing more pinball events in this highly produced style? We definitely have some things in the works. I mean, I'd say this is the first baby turtle step in that direction, but we definitely have some future plans for more polished, professional-produced, competitive content. Well, I mean, it's one of these things. This topic comes up all the time. How can you get pinball into the mainstream? And I think people, I think as a pinball community, We want it to be in the mainstream so we don't feel like complete nerds, probably, I would say. I think this is the most successful I've ever seen pinball crossing over, making it more palatable to non-pinball folk. Was that what you were aiming to do, or was this just an idea, just have a competitive format produced? No, I mean, it was definitely intentionally meant for a more casual audience, no doubt. And, again, this is where the pivot of a COVID life happened. We, again, work really closely with Nickelodeon, and we always have a big presence at Comic-Con. And we were going to do a giant heads-up tournament in person at Comic-Con this past summer. And, as you know, don't need to keep banging this drum, but everything got canceled. So we were brainstorming. and Jody I give him the biggest credit out of the idea of trying to do something virtually and had an internal team put together and we did the best we could remotely I mean, it's pretty incredible to see, and even my wife was watching for a little bit, and she's like, wait, are they in the same room? And it's like, nope. All of that is all separate and kind of cobbled together. I mean, from an outsider perspective, she was beyond impressed with the production level. So kudos to everyone. Zach, I'm obviously close to pinball and know the ins and outs, but even if I step back, and like you said, with your wife or my wife or anybody who's casual, that was really well produced. And I think that heads-up format is the most appealing to the newcomers in pinball. It's not what the hardcore people may or may not want, but it is exciting. It's fast-paced. It seems to work on that format, which you showed it on Twitch and TV. I like it a lot. And you mentioned that it was going to be at Comic-Con, basically. So you must have budgeted we're going to be giving away a machine, and now you have this machine sitting there, so you came up with this idea. I really, really applaud that. I thought that was a great of Stern to do, again, another pinball machine giveaway. Marty, were you asked to be in that? I think it was for Americans only. I noticed there were eight people. Very diverse. It was wonderful. But I think you had to be American. I think that was the one thing, I think. That is true. I guess they only sell to America. It was a global event. But, you know, yeah, you know, whatever. Baby steps. Gary's like, you know what? If you retire from gin and drink vodka, then it will increase your chances of getting invited. Okay. Cool. Gin is made from vodka. Let's just point things out, all right? That's what we're saying. Exactly. Anyway. Well, it can be. Anyway. So this is from our good friend Greg Pavarelli. So this is about Stern Army, which I know is really close to you, Zach. Oh, yeah. In the future, can Stern Army events at select locations get celebrity guests associated to the new titles similar to the SBC final? It may seem like a big ask, but celebrity visits to Sunshine happen anyway, and incorporating Stern could be a big win for the right venues for mutually beneficial marketing, disability for all.
    30:25
    How much do you have in your budget, Greg? I'd love to help you out. Is that really what it is? Is it because these celebrity people are like, yeah, I don't get out of bed for $5,000? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's some people that will do it out of the kindness of their heart, but yeah, you know, There is a finite budget, and like with any company, you try to stretch those marketing dollars as best as you can. And I think we definitely utilize our marketing budget as best as we can, no doubt. Alex Ward, a great player himself and a wonderful human being, asked about any non-licensed Stern-themed pinball machines in the near future. I don't know if you would consider Black Knight Sword of Rage a non-license. It was licensed, obviously, from Williams, but it was not your typical movie, TV show, rock band, comic book. Would you ever consider that? Are there any talks about that? Again, I know it's a future question, but how about re-releasing maybe some classic terms from the 80s or 90s? There's such a huge want for that. You did it with Beatles. I would say you never know. I won't say neither. You know what? You told me I can't say neither confirm nor deny. How about you just never know? It's the same thing with different words. Right. Exactly.
    31:46
    And, Alex, I kind of knew the answer before I asked the question. Is that an honest answer or a respectful answer or more of like a friendship answer? Oh, I'm still hurting from that, Jeff. Hey, listen, what do you care? We're not in the United States of America, so it doesn't matter, right? The Western doesn't care about us. In Australia and Canada, it doesn't matter, right? No, I knew the answer before I asked the question. But I guess another way of asking that question is because you did Beatles, which was a re-theme of Sea Witch and a really nice design, you must be hearing the requests and the demands, I know George probably has, to maybe make some of these classics, whether it be a Quicksilver or whatever the case may be. Do you hear these demands? Yes. Does it mean that we're going to do anything with it? Who knows? But this is the thing, right? it's such a double-edged sword here because you're a business and businesses, I hate to tell people this, businesses are in business to make money, right? What? I know, I know. I'm sorry, I've just shocked everybody. So if there's an opportunity to make money, Stern's going to do it. All the other companies are going to do it as well. So these things, I'm sure, are being considered. The fact that we haven't seen them, there's got to be either a reason for it or just the timing's not right. But I couldn't imagine you would just say, oh, that's a terrible idea. I would say there's a kernel of truth somewhere in there with everything you just said. Wow.
    33:14
    You can't answer that. I'm not going to argue with that. It's my lazy answer. No, I get it. That's fine. I'm usually more snarky, but you caught me at a tame state. Fair enough. Why does Stern not utilize its own stream or YouTube channel for product launches? That from Chris Grobner. That's a good question. I mean, we always like to work with our partners and focus on what we do best, and we work closely with Jack Danger for our reveal launches. And as a Stern Global brand ambassador, he is the ultimate expert in pinball streaming. So leveraging that tool in the toolbox, not that tool, but just working with partners that make the most sense. But, you know, we broaden our reach and scope with working with everyone else, whether it's through the Stern Army, Emoto Arcade, the Stern Pro Circuit. I mean, it doesn't have to fall on a Stern channel, but I mean, it's definitely, I wouldn't say it's off the table in the future. But I would say that you did that really well this time with Avengers, because, sure, Marvel had the first video, it was out there, but as soon as you go to Stern on YouTube, you had, here are the premium features, here's the LA, here's the pro features, here's the accessories, it was all there. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's what your definition of a quote-unquote stream is. So it's like, for product launch and having, you know, like you said, the game trailer, in this case, an accessories trailer, the premium features, the pro features, like, yes, that will always be launched on Stern's official channels first, or I guess in this case, it was technically Marvel. But yes, that would, that will always kind of live and resonate on Stern's channels. Now, in terms of like a Twitch live stream, like, you know, Stern doesn't have a Twitch channel and, you know, at this time, not really interested in creating our own official channel. But, I mean, you never know in the future. But, you know, we work really closely with Jack and other streamers as well that they're kind of their own great audience of getting the product knowledge out there that we don't necessarily need to have a Stern branded one, but we will have official videos on our channels and maybe do a live Facebook or Instagram stream or doing something at the Stern Pro Circuit Final or Turtles Heads Up. What you're saying really is you've got to cover it anyway. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like I'm trying to think of a good analogy where you have your five fingers and you're reaching all those audiences across all channels. So it's not necessarily only going to reside in one. I would imagine Stern Pinball, yourself and others you work with, disappointed with the pandemic and obviously Expo not happening. That is such a wonderful gathering, and I know a lot of people look forward to this Stern tour. That is a lot of fun to go into that building and thinking of where you once were and to see this massive expansion. It's so popular, in fact, that even another pinball company has moved nearby. Yeah, no, I mean, I would say it definitely sucks that there's no Expo in person this year, but they are doing a virtual one. It'll be interesting. I know California Extreme and some other shows, even Comic-Con, did a virtual event. And it's just kind of the new normal right now. And, you know, we're providing some really cool seminars and even a factory tour of, you know, Stern for Expo. And we'll see how it all turns out. I don't even know how it's going to turn out just because it's new. it's definitely a new experience because you know Chicago Pinball Expo is something that Josh and I have gone to every single year since we moved to Chicago when I was seven years old so it'll definitely be weird not you know driving down to the Wheeling Rosemont area and seeing everyone I like to call it like a high school reunion every year my last question I'm going pull away from Stern a little bit because you also wear another hat and it's the IFPA vice president, I guess. Is that your official title? It is. I didn't have a running mate or you could have been booted. You're lucky. But anyway, I do marketing for them too. Oh, really? Okay. Well, then what is so significant about October 20th for the IFPA? October 20th. Oh, is this when a certain podcaster is going to go above me in ranks.
    37:56
    You're breaking up. I'm in the mountains here in Maine, and you're breaking up, Jeff. No, I have no idea. But how does it work as far as when you rank? Like if you look, Raymond Davidson is ranked number one, Johanna Sostomar number two. What is that based on? You know what? Last I heard from Josh, he can kind of just stall the system at any time that he wants. Well, let me just do some math there for you, kid. Here we go. Let me give you some hard numbers. So on October 20th. If you poke the VP bear enough, the Presidente, he might come in and wield his power. I've got you holding a sign saying Jeff Teolis for IFPA President. So, dude, your credentials out the window. You caught me on a good day. Your dad also did it.
    38:44
    Anyway, the point is, October 20th. This is something you need to know, Marty. All right? Somebody has 477 whopper points. Somebody else will have 453. What would you rather have, the higher number or the lower number? I would rather friendships.
    39:04
    Screw friendships. Give me the higher number, which will happen, baby. So I guess that means, Zach, you were once a former number one player, but now those days are gone. This old fart, and I know you've got a birthday. I mean, we are both now just outside of our 40s. But the older seems to be dominant here.
    39:23
    Yay, pandemic. I love my child more than my rank. I'll finish with that. Meh. So like a lot of people, were you at some stage or maybe a long period of time really obsessed with your ranking or was it just always something that just happened? Never. Bull. I mean, maybe just because Josh and I grew up at a time when there was just never ranks. It was, we loved competing. So if there's a tournament nearby, and, you know, back then it was Expo and Papa. Like, that was it. There was two tournaments a year. And, you know, then it started growing. But in terms of chasing a rank, like, nope, don't care. I could be playing in a weekly tournament or my local league or playing in the tiebreaker against Raymond to win Pemburg, and I get the same adrenaline rush of trying to just ultimately win. I'm competitive, and I just want to win. I hear a lot of people with lower ranks say that. But when you were number one, did you have any sort of feelings about losing number one? Oh, I mean, of course, when I was number one, I didn't want to not be number one, but I was never, like, intentionally chasing it, like, oh my god I need to travel to five new tournaments just to try to keep my rank like I have the tournaments that I try to go to and if it works that I can like visit friends in San Francisco and go to city champ it's like oh awesome I'm going to try to work that in but no I never really went out of my way to go to places that I didn't like need to go to but I like I love competing so If it's a circuit event or when I lived in Munich for three months, the first thing I did when I got there was like, man, it would be really cool to compete in some tournaments. And I competed in Denmark, Italy, and the Netherlands. And that was awesome. And it wasn't to like chase ranking points. It was, hey, I never get this opportunity to compete in international tournaments. I'm going to take advantage of it. It is fun to play all over for sure. Absolutely, I agree. And that's the nice thing about pinball is, you know, with the different styles of tournaments, different formats, different locations, and fingers crossed, location pinball. And I know Stern is doing a lot to kind of help out those locations. Hopefully we'll get through this. Yeah. Safely and responsibly, people. What's your favorite tournament format? Probably, like, pinball style. I love, like, league, match play, situational play. That is the most fun. Or even just, like, head-to-head. Do you think there is room for a new format at all? Or would you like a new format, Cape Refresh? Any thoughts on what it could be? Oh, I don't.
    42:13
    It has to be timed. Well, that's kind of already part of the heads up. You know, you have the two-minute challenge. I get that, but that's one of many aspects. The others are start this mode or start a multiball. Just strictly timed. How well can you do in five minutes, two minutes, whatever. Again, something that might be more friendly for TVs. And it also, it doesn't really, it would change the way you play pinball machine. It could actually be more exciting because with COVID, I'm finding playing machines differently than I would in tournaments. Your brother was telling me about Simpsons Pinball Party and how you played it in league and all you did was garage, couch, garage, couch. And I'm like, I play everything else. I love that there are different shots, but in a competition, you don't do that. So maybe a time to might make you play a different way as well. Yeah, potentially. I mean, I know with Josh and I, when we ran launch parties at Expo, we transitioned our format to just two-minute challenges, and that was just head-to-head, and you just kept going. It wasn't like, oh, first to start a multiball. It was straight off time. So, I mean, I know people are creative, and sometimes you're limited by, you know, the number of games or however many players you have at a tournament that I'm all for new formats. I mean, I just love playing and competing. Well, maybe someday you'll catch me and, you know.
    43:39
    Zach, thanks very much. I know you're tired and not bad on the marketing. I'd give him a B-. What do you think? Oh, certainly a B. A B? A B. The fifth P. I'd give you an A if you told us that secret word. Yeah, no, I don't think it's going to happen Maybe over a drink sometime Okay, alright Hey Zach, thanks very much, good to talk to you Congratulations on everything at Stern Pinball And the winner, that is Avengers Thank you guys That was awesome, thanks Zach, really appreciate you coming on Final Round As we mentioned before the Zach interview It's been a long weekend Really for you, hasn't it Marty I know you were up early, 4am In Melbourne, Australia To watch our Expo video And be on the chat line but I've got to admit, you sound a little rough, buddy. Thank you for noticing and calling that out. Yeah, I am a bit dusty. Dusty Martin is what they call me when I'm like this and that's only going to be a special reference for Australians who know who Dusty Martin is but that's kind of a bit of a nickname that I'm given. So yes, I was up all night. I didn't go to sleep and wake up and I may have been drinking from 7pm the night before, and I went to bed at 6am, so that's quite a bit. Yikes, yikes. Well, I've got some good news for you. It's our sponsor of the week. Many people, day after day, suffer from hangovers. Is there a cure? I'm asking for a friend, of course. There is, in fact, a cure, and our final round science lab has the antidote. It's not that cure where in the old days cowboys used to eat rabbit poop. That's real, by the way. Google it. No, as delicious as that may sound, there are only three choices when it comes to a hangover. Three? What are they? Number one, keep drinking. You can't get a hangover if you're still hammered.
    45:34
    Tempting. What else? Number two, I find that a good swift kick in the nuts makes you forget all about your pounding head. I'll pass. Next. Number three, it's the final round hangover kit. What's included? First, you get a nice special pillow, custom made for your toilet, as it might be your best place to sleep for the next few hours. I can see where that comes in handy. Convenient. Nice. Also included, earplugs. They're essential. Block out things like alarms, spouses, pets. Or kids crying wanting to be fed. Whatever. There's also this special meditation. Marty, try out this trick. Count slowly. One, two, three. Now stop at the number of years before your liver gives out. Okay. And finally, the last thing that works for 99.9% of the population. Tell me. When you have a hangover, just call Marty, and you'll instantly realize how much better you feel than he does. That's true. Tell me that won't sell.
    46:37
    Sign me up. Yeah, it might not work for you. Sorry. Thanks for being patient zero and helping us with that little science lab experiment. It's the thing I do for the community. You're all welcome. You are a trooper. And by the way, you really are a trooper. What people don't know, we kind of hinted at it a little bit, but that X-Float video, which was, I think, 52 minutes long, how many hours did you put into that?
    47:01
    It's really embarrassing for me to say. I reckon probably 80 hours. Oh, I thought it was 20. Are you serious? No, it was that. And I'll tell you why. It's because, remember, we recorded. So there was a lot of set-up recording. You went to bed. I spent probably five hours just setting up the way that we record, the green screen, all that kind of stuff. But the editing as well. We had the video footage. We kind of did sort of... I cut out this bit in the video where when we tried to connect with Mark Silk, it was fine. We connected, there it is. And then we just had all these technical issues for probably an hour. And then we had to record that in. So all we had was the raw video footage. I then had to edit the audio, clean up the audio, then sync that back to the video, and then source all the overlay materials, the pictures, the videos, the websites, all that, the titles. I had none of that after recording. And I hadn't really done video editing for quite some time, and I upgraded my Adobe subscription so I could get Adobe Premiere Pro. So I had to relearn that program as I was going as well. So, you know, woe is me. It probably would have been a 20-hour job, but it took me 80 hours because I was just having to source a lot of information. And I had to then get approvals for information, for stuff that I was putting there as well. So there was a lot of time delays in there. But I think it came out good. The feedback we got was positive. So it was probably well worth it. The hardest thing probably about the video was filming our jet and the Lamborghini and the yacht. You know, we had to wait for the weather to be nice. We had to obviously have a camera beside the jet. That's not easy to do. People forget that. I mean, it just looks like a quick 50-second commercial at the beginning. Yeah, people think it's just easy having all those supercars and yachts and houses. You've got to wash them. You've got to make sure there are no people in the shot. It's not easy. No, it's really not easy at all. And having to get all those cars out of the garage at the one time, that's quite time consuming. So you think, oh, look at final round. They've got a convertible Bentley. Therefore, it's easy. No, it's not. It's hard, guys. Yeah. I mean, right now, it's fall here. It's coming into summer there. So it's different, right? I mean, we've got some rough weather at times and you can't shoot during that. So, thankfully, you know, the yacht was in Melbourne on the lake of... Never mind. The point is... What lake was it? Yeah. Lake... Because we had light. Yeah, exactly. Lake Kangaroo. Anyway, I had no idea.
    49:46
    The point is it was fun to do that. Lake Kangaroo. Oh, my God. Thanks, Jeff. The point is it was fun to do the video. Thank you very much for Mark Silk, too. What a great guest. It made it a lot easier for us, too, because he is a pro. He had some great assets to show, to tell some wonderful stories, and a very interesting guy. Yeah, what was really funny about the Mark interview in that whole video, which went for about half an hour, there were a lot of edits on that section. None of them from Mark Silk. It was you and I that I had to edit out because we were just so amateurish compared to Mark Silk. Damn you, Mark. No, he's great He was great And I said it on chat last night on Pinball Expo We were laughing from the moment he picked up the phone And even after we stopped recording It was just funny from beginning to end Well, the good news is, for those that missed it And I hope you certainly did catch Expo We have put it on our YouTube page Just search Final Round Pinball And you can find it there, of course It's linked on our Facebook and maybe, I don't know if I've linked it or not on Instagram, but we can certainly do that as well. It's available for you to witness even now after the fact. And again, thanks to everybody and Rob Burke and Dave Hicks and Jeff and everybody at Expo for putting that on because that was something to watch. What were your favorite moments of Expo? I think my favorite moment, particularly of our video, was how they only remembered who you were and had absolutely no idea who I was. So that was my favorite bit. Have you met Dave Fix? Have you met Rob Burke? I've met Dave Fix, yes. Oh, you have? Okay. Yeah. Well, think about the first time I met you. I didn't even know who the hell you were. That's right. You've got to leave a mark. That's right.
    51:39
    I don't know what you did to leave a mark, but anyway. Fireball, hello. Hello. Okay. There were so many highlights from Virtual Pimple Expo. I'm just going to probably call out two, and I know that there's one that you really enjoyed as well. But that Punchy the Clown video... Oh, the stop motion? Oh, my God. That happened just before our video was just mesmerizing. I could not take my eyes off it. 3,000 frames were used to make that video. So it is archived on Pinball Expo's Twitch channel. They were able to... Video on demand, yeah? Yeah, they did that for the Friday and the Saturday session. So you can see everything Friday and Saturday, which were the bulk of the shows. But, yeah, it's on right before our thing on Saturday. My goodness, that is something to see. Have you ever played Punchy the Clown, by the way? Yes, I have. I played it at Old Modern Pinball. The first time I ever went there, it was in the corner, and I'm like, what is this? And, you know, it was neat to see it again, especially being broken down like that. But that is so creative. I know it was 3,000 frames, but how many hours would it have taken to make that? But do you know what? At the end of the video, he did say, and it actually wasn't as long as I thought it would. Like, I'm thinking it's something like 20 hours, right? And I think what the lesson I can probably take from that is how you set up how you're going to record, the methodology around how you're going to capture everything means the editing after is so much quicker because he just would have gone snap, snap, snap, snap, knowing everything in sequence because he planned out the sequence beforehand. Marty, I knew the answer before I asked the question. I just set you up for your next video. You just said you could do it in 20 hours, so guess what? The next Flutter Round video, stop-motion action with your two favorite podcasters. Marty just said it's easy with a little bit of setup. I said it was easy for this guy. I never said it was easy for me. Oh, a little backpedal in there. Sounds good. So my other part that I really enjoyed from Expo, and I'll preface this by asking you a question, Jeff. Have you ever been to Barcelona in Spain? 100%. I spent a couple of days there. It was kind of the end of my honeymoon and I saw a lot. Barcelona is huge, right? It was not one of the things I saw in Barcelona, but I am definitely going back to see the incredible pinball jukebox casino game machine museum that they showed on Expo. That was, to me, my favorite video. It was epic. But the reason why I asked about Barcelona wasn't just whether you had gone to Hotel Colon. Yes, yes. You were there too, weren't you? I remember you sent me a picture, like hilariously, this selfie of you in front of Hotel Colon, and I sent you back exactly the same selfie that I had taken in front of Hotel Colin. And that was before we met. We knew we had the same sense of humor when we said that. But the reason why I brought that up is... By the way, I took the picture at the Hotel Colin's front door. I was not going to the rear.
    54:57
    Ah, no, no. But I'm pumped. Yeah, there you go. But the reason why I said, because I went to Barcelona and I searched for pinball when I was there. Absolutely no pinball, which I thought was kind of weird because there were all these Spanish manufacturers of pinball machines. Nothing when I was there. And then all of a sudden you see this video of not only some of the best historical examples of all pinball machines, but certainly a lot of these Spanish companies. But the, oh my God, the condition that these machines looked like was just immaculate. I just wanted to be there to play those games. Yeah, you know, I've talked to Juliano Soriano, who is the number seven player in the world, certainly always a top ten, depends on what the latest updates are, anywhere between, say, seven and 15, but he always at the IFPA World Championships He in Valencia Spain and I asked him once about how many pinball machines are in Spain and it tough to see a lot of them So to see this collection it was just first of all well shot The production was great.
    56:09
    It's rare that I see machines I've never seen before, whether it be in person or on video or pictures of them. He went up a whole row, and I was like, there's 20 in a row I've never seen before in my life. Well, certainly when it comes to EMs, there are a lot of EMs that I've never seen. But there was this row of solid states that I had never seen. And again, they would show the back glass. I'm like, quick, show me the play field. And as soon as they show me the play field, I'm thinking, oh, I need to flip that. I want to play that because all these games came out in my favorite era, which is really that crossover between EM and solid state. So up to about 83, 84. And there's literally this back catalog of all these machines from that era that I just want to play. Crazy. Well, Spain definitely has incredible pinball players. I mentioned Julio Suriano, but also Cesar Martinez, who won my Pinball Profile World Tour event in Denmark. He's from Spain, too. And that was a big tournament. There was like 47 people at the old Flipper K. Larden in Copenhagen. So Spain has great players for sure. And it's tough to win Pinball Profile World Tour events. Let me just tell you, it is not easy.
    57:32
    I was waiting for you to shut up so I could make the joke. Oh, my God. Was there a Pinball Profile World Tour you didn't win? Because we've only ever heard about the ones that you've won. Oh, by the way, that one, I mentioned there was 47 players. that one I finished 33 terrible I mean that was cool because there was I think 12 different countries represented obviously people from Denmark, Sweden we had people from England we had people all over and Germans a couple of Americans and oh gosh it was just I really got schooled when I went to Denmark a lovely place but between that and the EPC just, you know, I felt like you do right now being hungover, just hammered in the head, non-stop. And so what other things from Virtual Pinball Expo did you enjoy, Jeff? Really everything, because it saved Expo in a way. No matter what the quality was, I don't even care what the quality was. You know, there were some Zoom calls and some live things that were rough and maybe not the greatest audio, but you know what? It was, to me, more about the content. But there were some excellent pieces that the content just was, wow. The Dutch pinball? Yeah. Oh, with Nate Shivers and all those wonderful people there and the little spoof of Reservoir Dogs off the beginning. That was fun to see in the custom machines there. That's a place I want to go to. Yeah, that looked great. Really good video quality and always good to see Nate Shivers, just selfishly. Anything else that stood out for you? I mean, Haggis Pinball, I was impressed. They were on right after us. It was good to see Damien and Greg and the rest of the staff there. It was funny watching in chat. Everyone was like, let's get to the game. Let's see the game. I really want to see the game. which was good to see that excitement too. I mean, the way the video was shot, it was a little bit more about here's what Haggis is and then get the big payoff watching that beautiful game be played. Yeah, well, I mean, no surprise, I'm Australian, so I know the Haggis crew. I talk to Damien and Greg and all of them all the time. What they really wanted to establish in that is, before that video, really you knew about Damien because he was taking everybody on his journey. But really what they wanted to show was there's actually a team of people that have got really vast and specialised experience. You've got Casey, who is the audio director. He, you know, it's his first venture into pinball, but I've heard some of the stuff that he's done outside of pinball. He is incredibly talented. And then you've got Greg, who's a coder that is his profession. And then you've got Scott Seisman, who has just, he was talking about his collection. He has got so many pinball machines in his collection, and he knows how to assemble machines. He knows how to clear coat play fields. So I think it was really good for them to say, well, Damien is the person that set this up, and he is the main person, but there's a team of people involved getting this machine out the door. And then we got to see the machine flipping. Martin, as you know, in the four years of me doing any podcasting, if I don't like something, I just usually don't say it. With the exception of Thunderbirds. We all can shit on that. That's fine.
    60:49
    Well, yeah. But I will say this. When I like something, I really like to promote it. And I really like promoting Haggis Pinball because of that wonderful staff. It would have been nice to see Georgia, by the way. Damien's wife on there. I think she was actually doing the filming. But another lovely person there at Haggis Pinball. The thing that I like about it, and I want people to know this, because I got to spend a little bit of time there when I was in Melbourne back in January. They're just such nice people. And I root for them, like everyone in North America and the world, roots for Charlie Emery and Spooky Pinball. They're not trying to change the world. They're trying to make good pinball. It is a good pinball machine. It flips well. Some neat innovations there. The first time we saw that hammer thing, and I did it myself. I gave it a good whack, didn't do a thing to it. So that's nice. It grips the ball. You don't have to worry about that. The nice flow, that horseshoe shot, which is a great shot in pinball. You know, the modes that Greg's worked really hard on. the nice screen in the middle so you don't have to look up. There's a lot of good things in there, and I was quite surprised at the price. A nice special, by the way. If you're interested in it, do it now in October, because you're going to save some good bucks there, and a good price for a pinball machine here in North America, I'll tell you that. Yeah, and it's customizable as well. You can get your name in the game. You can get your clan colors as well.
    62:05
    And there was really good feedback in Twitch channel. People were like, okay, that actually looks like a great game. The only negative, which is probably the negative that people have said about this kind of street level game, is called, oh, it doesn't have ramps. What I will tell you, because I have played this game quite recently, is the rule set, the coding that Greg has put into this, is as extensive as any game, modern game, that's got ramps on it. So, what they've been able to do with the playthrough, with the layout, and put this really extensive ruleset, just works really well. I'm fine with it being street level. I'm fine with it. No ramps. Are you kidding me? The Beatles, it doesn't have ramps. Quicksilver, all these classic turns, there are no ramps. There's no ramps on Stargazer, or Dragon Fist, or Stars, or how about TNA? You want to talk about another modern game? Who gives a shit that there's no ramp there? Really, think about it. All a ramp does is just feed an inlane. That's it. I mean, the exception of something like dialed in where an orbit turns into a ramp. But really, it's not like it's an upper play field. I don't really get the disdain for, quote-unquote, lack of ramps. I don't get it. Do you want that rejection? Is that what it is, to go halfway up and come down? Because where is it really going? It's only going to an in-lane.
    63:27
    I kind of understand the disdain. Sustained, but again, if you look at a machine and all you see is just like a still image or even just video, you might not get it. It's not until you actually play it. And Beatles is a prime example. You look at it and you go, okay, well, it's the rich single level whatever. As soon as you play it, it's fun. Great game. TNA, exactly the same thing. You hit the start button, the music starts pumping and you start playing and it's so fast and furious. Great game. You forget that it doesn't have ramps. It doesn't matter. As long as you integrate a really good rule set, light show, sound and call outs with the play field in mind, then it works. And, yeah, this works. Good job on Haggis Pinball. That was a nice video to put on the Expo. And everyone, again, kudos for you for helping keep Expo alive, continue the number of years, albeit virtual. And, of course, there was a nice little package. I think it's $35 plus $10 shipping. for certainly American orders. If you want to support Pinball Expo, check out pinballexpo.net. You get a nice little gift bag. Awesome. Speaking of swag, Marty, I have been actually emailed a couple of times, Hey, are there any Final Round shirts or swag? And, oh, geez. I mean, I get that you want to. It's kind of like Supreme, right? You want to look like you're special knowing the pull that we have. Yeah, that's the cachet that Final Round has. Yeah, it hasn't happened yet. and we have talked about it. We have talked about it. We've bandied some ideas around on what it would be. I think if we just stuck our logo on a T-shirt, we probably wouldn't be, you know, really doing the spirit of Fun Around Justice. What about buying a bunch of Loser Kid hats and then crossing it out and putting our logo over top of it? Yes. Take that, Scott and Josh. How'd you like that?
    65:28
    That is a great idea. Let's do that. Yeah. I think they do all right. I think we can leave those guys alone. They do pretty darn good. People, if you do want a final round T-shirt, write to us and let us know what sort of demand is there, and we'll do it. Why not? All right. Well, actually, okay, quick plug here. You actually have a line of T-shirts, and in the video, well, that's right. Sorry, I'm pulling back the curtain here. You were actually wearing a shirt that said Motorhead, which was a knock of the band, with a crashed dummy motorhead. It's a great shirt. Somebody asked me, where did you get that shirt? And I said, well, funny you should say that because... That is my line of ironic T-shirts that I did. And yes, I don't even know what the URL is, but I think if you type in Martees T-E-E-S, it will probably take you to the store. And you can buy that motorhead and some other hilariously ironic T-shirts that I've created. I think they are good. I saw the line. I liked it. Okay. Couldn't have mixed in the final round in there. All right, fine. I know where you're... That's fine. Don't want to split the profits. That's cool. I got it. It's hard to make an ironic T-shirt out of people... Before you get sick. Let's start again. It's hard to make an ironic T-shirt... You think I'm editing that out? Fuck no. it's hard to make an ironic t-shirt about fight around when it's already ironic so there you go that's that's my defense so we're getting close to the end of the year and i gotta say if the year was to end right now and we know there's more coming out probably from chicago gaming and probably another one from stern already i have to say pandemic aside 2020 is maybe one of the best years I have ever seen for pinball. I'm not talking about the sadness of locations closing, things like that. I'm talking about the manufacturing of games and what we're seeing, because let's go through it. Stern, that Avengers game is spectacular. Not that Turtles wasn't great too, but those are two pretty impressive games. It might actually be the best one-two punch of Zombie Yeti. I mean, think about a few years ago, he did Deadpool and Iron Maiden. I would say Turtles and Avengers are actually better than that other home run one-two punch. Yeah, and you're seeing the evolution of Zombie Eddie's pinball design, and I think he's also come out and said that with Avengers Infinity Quest, I think that's where it all just really came together for him in his eyes. So, absolutely right. I know we've talked offline about this as well, But I think probably one of the biggest highlights for me was seeing John Borg releasing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, because what you've seen is this massive shift in his design where, you know, you could always pick a Borg design. There were some key sort of elements, Bashtoy in the middle or slightly to the left or right, left or right orbits in the front of the map. Aerosmith, Metallica, Iron Man, Guardians. Yeah, right? Whereas this is such a new, fresh take for John Borg. I love that he could just take that next step up. I think I've said this before on this program. I can only think of one John Borg game I dislike. That's how great John is at designing games. And then Keith, of course, with Avengers 2. and we'll see what's next from Stern. But Jersey Jack, with what we saw a couple of weeks ago, that is, I'll say it again, the best launch I have ever seen for a pinball machine and very likely their best machine. Have you watched some of the gameplay of Guns N' Roses? Yeah, I have. And do you know what's really interesting? A lot of the promo videos you see really shows off the light show. And I kept watching them thinking, oh, it's all too much. You know, like it's on all the time. I need a bit of contrast, light and shade. But as I've been watching gameplay videos, you actually see that there is a lot of moments where the lights aren't going crazy all the time. They obviously wanted to show that off as part of promoting the machine because it looks amazing. But in reality, you actually do get some time in the game where it's not full on all the time. Yeah, I wonder how video will translate that because of the angle of the camera. What is it like for the player with that kind of light show? The only thing I've heard is, okay, with all the lights going on, where am I supposed to hit? But, you know what, that'll come. If you especially own the game, you'll know where to go. I don't know. I think in integration, you can't find a better pinball machine than Guns N' Roses. And the number of assets just makes that spectacular. It makes me, listen, I'm going to enjoy this for this year and next year and for many years to come, but it makes me clamor for wondering, okay, Eric, what's next? Because, boy, oh, boy, you're two for two, buddy. Yeah, absolutely. And then we've also got American Pinball releasing Hot Wheels. Their best game for sure. I'm actually, and you know this, I'm a fan of Houdini. I actually like Oktoberfest. I like, what did you say, call-outs? Mm-hmm. Yeah, mostly.
    70:45
    Once a little week. There's no way that guy sounds like a cop. A criminal. I would have bought that. But anyway, the point is, you know, I've always, as far as the aesthetics of that, those pinball machines, I think they're gorgeous. I am a big Joel Balser fan, so I like his designs, his games. They're different than anything else. And there's a lot of stop and go. You know, you get that with scoops. But I am so excited. I haven't even played Hot Wheels. I've watched Chuck Webster stream it a lot. I've watched others. I know Josh Sharp has one. He thoroughly enjoys it. And he had a hand in helping with Hot Wheels too. but again with Joe Schober, Josh Kugler, Balser, and the entire American Pinball staff. I also think it's a good theme, by the way, but it's a great pinball machine. So this is the thing about American Pinball. People that are a bit cool on it have never played it. Everyone that's played it has said to me that it is a fantastic game to flip. So, I don't know, if you get your hands on one, have a play of it. You may actually be quite surprised. So we've mentioned four machines, two from Stern, one from American Pinball, one from Jersey Jack Pinball. I haven't flipped any of these, and I'm really impressed with the gameplay videos that I've seen so far. And I'm already saying these are maybe some of their best games, certainly with Jersey Jack, certainly with American. And probably with Spooky, too, because they gave us Rick and Morty this year. Another game I haven't flipped, but boy, oh boy, does that look good. There's another one which you just go, okay, next level. All of these manufacturers are stepping up their game big time. And we as the players get to benefit from that. Going back to Jersey Jack and talking about stepping up, that's one thing Jersey Jack does. They kind of bring games to a new level and it's going to be tough. I'm sure it'll be great, but whatever the next game released is going to be compared to, very likely, Guns N' Roses, especially if it's a music game. And I already know several people, it reminds me of the Iron Maiden days. there are a lot of people who love Guns N' Roses and a lot who can't stand Guns N' Roses the music. Sure. And like Iron Maiden, you know, that was not a polarizing band, but you probably either loved it or disliked it. It wasn't your cup of tea. I know a lot of people that can't really stand Guns N' Roses music, or maybe like one or two that have bought the game. I know two people specifically that said, I'm in. So the funny thing is, if Led Zeppelin ever came out, let's just say. There's a rumor out there. Who knows, right? If Led Zeppelin ever came out, I'm in on day one. My favorite band ever. But I will say this. If the game sucks, I'll be flipping it. Okay. So the theme means a lot to me to get it in my home because I have a lot of Led Zeppelin stuff in my house. But if the game's not great, it moves. Guns N' Roses might not be other people's cup of tea in their taste of music, but the game looks amazing. The hi-hats for the pops, the drumsticks on the sides, everything. They don't care so much about the theme, but the gameplay as well. And that's what it comes down to for me. I don't care as much about the theme as I do the gameplay. I think when it comes to music pins, because music is personal, it's very subjective, it really depends on the impact that music can have on you. I listen to a lot of music. So in my life, there really are two things. There's pinball and music. Not that I play or write music, obviously.
    74:16
    But I am somebody that there's always a rhythm in my head. I'm always listening to or thinking about music. So that's why, you know, when I had Iron Maiden, because the music just sort of grated on me, I had to let it go. If I was a bit more indifferent towards music, it probably would have stayed. And because a flip example I give to that is somebody that I was speaking to recently was talking about total nuclear annihilation and saying they really loved playing the game, but just couldn't play it for too long because they absolutely hated the music. Really? Yeah. Seriously, that's so funny. Ron Howlett was just talking about his TNA and trying to get Bruce to kind of come on board. This is for the Slam Chilt podcast. And Ron, even after having it for a year, just said, I love the music. He just said that in the last episode. Yeah, that's right, because that can go on you. But this person is a metalhead, right? And so they're into really, really heavy music. So if you think about the very sort of electronic analog sounds that comes from TNA, that's going to be really jarring with a metalhead. So I understand that music can be really subjective. You will get your fans and then you'll get your haters and not a lot in between. I don't know if there's a style of music I completely hate. You can name any genre and I can say I like that. I mean, it might not be my favorite. I'm a little older, and the classic rock is kind of where I... They always say, I learned this from radio, they say between the ages of 16 and 24, that's where your tastes develop. So no matter how old you are, you'll probably go back to what you were in love with between 16 and 24. And that seems to be true for me. Okay. I won't give you the genre, and you don't have to do it right now, but I would encourage you to go to YouTube and look up the song WAP. W-A-P. by Cardi B featuring me and Viz Dalian. I know because I freaking linked it to you. That is an absolute abomination. Abomination. Some might say the video doesn't leave a lot to be desired. Let's just say that. Do you want me to read out some of the lyrics? No, I know. Yeah, go ahead. Sure. No, I won't. That's completely on the Pinball Network. Why don't we come up with WAP final round merchandise?
    76:36
    Oh, boy. I actually follow Cardi B because I just can't believe the shit that comes out of her mouth. It's more entertainment. It's like people who watch The Bachelor or Big Brother. I give my wife back all the time. She watches the show on Netflix where it's these Beverly Hills real estate agents that are just so phony. It seems like it's scripted. It's not supposed to be scripted. that's kind of like the Hills, but real estate version, or Keeping Up with the Kardashians. And I look at my wife, I'm like, you're killing brain cells. And she's like, yeah, I'm here to watch the real estate, but it's that kind of thing. That's Cardi B to me. Okay, sure. Yep. What were you going to say about it? I'm just going to say it's an absolute abomination, and that style of music is a style that you would say, okay, I hate that style of music. Well, what else would you say is in that genre? No, no, no, no, I'm not. I personally do not judge people on their taste in music. I think there's good songs in every single genre, whether I like that genre or not. So I say that. There's not a genre that I hate. There's just songs within genres that I hate and some that I like. Is this the podcast Marty or the real Marty? No, this is actually the real Marty. You're not allowed to say, I don't judge. Are you kidding? No, what I'm saying is I'm judging all the time, but not about people's taste in music, because I've in the past had a little bit of an eccentric taste in music, and it doesn't feel good when people criticize something that you love, so I don't criticize people for something that they love. That to me is the great thing about something like Spotify, and I say this being in the radio business, but just a way to sample all kinds of different music and different things, because one of the things in radio they talk about is the burnout factor. You know, how many times have you heard Stairway to Heaven or Freebird or Sweet Child of Mine or all these kind of songs you've heard over and over again? To some, it's a wow moment, but to a lot of people, it's like, okay, I've heard that. I'm good. I want something different. So that's why, you know, music pins, I don't know. I just can't think of a music pin that, if it came out, I would be turned off based on the music. Hmm. Led Zeppelin for me. Go fuck yourself.
    79:01
    I like a couple of their songs. I do. I love... You judging bastard. I love the Immigrant song. I love... You know what I mean? That's a great song. I absolutely detest Stairway to Hefford, but I don't have people for liking it. Nah, it's an awful boring song. It is so perfectly constructed. Are you kidding? That's right. Well done. Awesome. I appreciate that you love that song. That's great. I don't. I hate the song. I will turn it off if I hear it. What I'm saying is, it's not a bad song. I hate it.
    79:38
    Ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you for listening to the final round. We have decided to call it quits.
    79:45
    I wish Marty nothing but the best. No, we cannot now continue with this divide between us. so you're going through another co-host first Ryan then Joe now me you gotta find somebody don't be like that love the application do you like Stairway to Heaven fuck off okay but this is what's really interesting okay it's a really interesting topic about the fact that you love Led Zeppelin and you will defend that position and I might like something else and I have to defend that position it's coming back to a really interesting topic in the pinball world yes And that is people's loyalties to a brand, or you're either one or you're either with me or you're against me. And what I've noticed recently is this whole Stern versus Jersey Jack battle where you have to take your side. You can't love both. You've got to pick one. It's Ford versus Holden, which I don't know if you would get that. I thought you were going to say Ford versus GM. Well, it's probably the same. So Holden is a subsidiary of GM, but it's the Australian brand of General Motors. Way to be global. Right. So I'm just being true. But anyway, so again, it's that you're either a Ford or you're a Holden fan, and you can only be one or the other. You have to pick a side. Why can't you be both? Coke or Pepsi, same thing? Well, yeah, I guess so. But the big one is Sony or Nintendo, the console wars. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? you had to either like one or the other. And that's what I'm saying at the moment is, you know, when Josie Jack releases Guns and Roses, all the comments are like, oh, you know, sucked in Stern or, oh, you know, that's going to take all the sales away from Stern and maybe Stern will now actually start improving. And it's like, does it have to be like that? Do we have to have this against each other? What's going on, Jeff? I don't get that you can't like different things. We've talked about it in music. I don't have to be loyal to Stern. I don't have to be loyal to Jersey Jack. Put out a good product, and I'll like your product. And that's the case with both these recent games. You know, are you saying, oh, I can't play Valley. I can only play Williams. Well, wait a second. That's what I'm saying. But I can't play Dead East. I can't play Sega. I can't play Gottlieb. Come on, man. If it's good pinball, it's good pinball. And it seems like a real fanboy thing that I don't get. And just the visceral hate of picking sides, I don't get it. You know, can't you just tip your cap? Even if you're employed at Stern, let's say, and I don't, this is a bad example because I'm not, there's nobody I can think of that wouldn't look at a game from Jersey Jack and go, okay, that is great on this, this, this. They might say, I don't like this, but they can't refuse that. That's not brilliant in so many different ways. Vice versa, you know, Jersey Jack would say, well done to this, this, this about Stern. We just had Keith on last week and he talked about some of the things he liked from Stern. I don't know why people have to defend it to the extent that they do. and you made a good comparison about the video games. Yeah, Console Wars. Here's what I... I've tried to process this and this is what I think. So go with me on this. I think that there are a few very fortunate but very few people that have got enough money that they can buy whatever they want. So in their collection, you will see that they've got Stearns and Jersey Jacks and Bally Williams, you know, all of that. But for most people, they really can afford one machine. Some people can't even afford one machine, but it's a big amount of dollars. Like, you know, here it's $20,000 for, I think, the collector's edition for Guns N' Roses here, which probably translates to $5 in the US. But that's a significant amount of money for anything. Like, in anyone's house, buying a TV is a big purchase. And a good TV here is $2,000. We're talking $15,000 for a mid-range Jersey Jack and Ellie Stern. That is a lot of money. So if you had to save if you had to sacrifice if you had to put all this money into something that costs that much you need to feel good about your purchase And one of the ways that you can do this if you buy a Stern is you can say well Jersey Jack sucks because I've got a Stern and I love my machine, and that makes me feel better about my purchase. That was the console wars, and I think this is now the pinball wars as well, where people need to feel better about a significant sacrifice or an emotional investment they've made through money into a product like this. That's my thoughts. Good analogy. I completely don't understand it. I remember you talked about affordability of games. I remember the first new in box game I bought and I remember buying it and going, I'm trying to think how many cars I've purchased that were less than this machine in my lifetime, because that's a lot of money going out and you want that sense of pride, so I get that. But I think the pride should be defending your game versus shitting on other ones. Yeah. You just think it's a build-up of... I think some people's defense is offense. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Like you shitting on Zeppelin. I did not shit on the Zeppelin machine.
    85:11
    And, and, no, did I not just say before that I love the immigrant song and that I love Whole Lotta Love? Did I not say that? Did you mishear me? What about Daisy Confused? I don't know what... What? Ramblin' On. It's called Ramble On, not Ramblin' On. Yeah, well, he rambles on. I can tell you that. Read the lyrics. Read the lyrics of that song. I had this argument with somebody saying... It's a Jared Tolkien fantasy song. Yeah, that's right. That's why it's Ramblin'. Wow. It's a great song, right? So, don't you be twisting my words saying that I'm a Led Zeppelin hater. I am not a Led Zeppelin hater. I just hate one of his songs.
    85:54
    The funny thing about all that is Robert Plant said he never wanted to tour with Led Zeppelin after John Bonham passed away because he goes, I don't want to play that damn wedding song 30 times in a tour. There you go. Fine. All right. Let's just move on before we come to blows. How's your headache, by the way? I'm speaking up a little louder. Yeah, no, fine.
    86:12
    I've come good. Yep, yep. It's amazing how your voice can sober me up so quickly. You know, Marty, this is the last show we do in October. I know on the calendar there's this date coming up in November that's very important to the bulk of our listeners, which is Americans. And I think we right now need to really convey the importance of voting. You must vote. In the most underrated pinball battle royale, it is the most important thing. It's the most important vote you can actually think of. If there's another one, I don't know what it is. It is really important because if you don't have your say, the wrong machine may get through. And it will remain the most underrated machine for four years. I want to point that out too, so that's when the next poll happens. But you can vote right now. How do you register to vote? You click on the link that we put on our Facebook page that takes you to PollTab, where you can pick your candidate in the form of an animated GIF, and then you click the vote button down the bottom. So, Marty, to register to vote, by the way, no age restrictions. You know, we don't ban former criminals from voting like they do in some elections. We'd have no voters if that was the case. We just need you to go to our Facebook page, like the Final Round Pinball podcast, and help us with round two. What happened in round one? Round one, there were quite a few upsets. Stellar Wars, unfortunately, didn't make it through. That wasn't an upset. With only 14% of the vote against Demolition Man. You know what? I don't think there were a lot of surprises. We had Barracora against Harley Davidson. Barracora got through with 90% of the vote. So, well done. That's one of yours, Jeff. Corvette and Mustang. The Battle of the Muscle Cars. Mustang got through, but only 58% of the vote. So that was quite close. But I think that's also really a reference to Corvette being a really good game as well. By the way, can I just say, the way you set up the poll tabs, kudos to you. It sucks for me personally because I wanted Corvette to win, so I voted. And then I got my friend Pinside P to try to vote on his Facebook page. And it said, you've already voted. I'm like, fuck, what? What are you talking about? I put IP restrictions on it. You did. I did. I did. You know, I could have actually put up higher restrictions, like either having to use your Facebook login or Google login, but, you know, I kept it open. Hey, next time put in a credit card number, all right? Get some bucks off us. DNA sample or something. We then had Batman Forever versus Lexi Lightspeed. Batman Forever was comfortable at 74%, and there was a bit of conversation about that on our Instagram page, that's Final Round Pinball Podcast on Instagram, And really, I think what I'd highlight is not a lot of people really have played Lexi Lightspeed to form an opinion. I voted for Lexi. Same. Did you? Yeah. I think you nominated it, didn't you? Yep, it is one of mine. Well, Batman Forever is one of mine as well. What else happened in round one? So WWF Royal Rumble was against Alien Star. Alien Star was true. All two good games, by the way. The only thing I've heard about Alien Star is it's just one thing. the one thing you do. But it's so good. Yeah, it's satisfying. And that was me that was really knocking it last time when I was calling that out. It's you. When you do the thing, it is so satisfying. But it's only the one thing. Anyway, so it got through with 65% of the votes. We talked about Demoman and Stellar Wars. Obviously, Demoman going through. Space Shuttle versus Jackbot. That was so tough for me to vote because you've got my favorite spinner in all of pinball, but that's all there is on that game. versus Jackbot, which is so underrated. Yeah, look, I find this hard as well because Space Shuttle has got so much nostalgic value for me and I love how it shoots. I love the sound. I love the call-outs. But Jackbot has probably just got a better rule set and a better game experience. So it got through with 70% of the votes. So, not bad. And then next we had Suprimos versus Lethal Weapon. I'm trying to think. I think I voted Lethal Weapon. I don't think they won. Well, Lethal Weapon was one of your nominations, so I would assume that you voted for them. I nominated Space Shuttle. I didn't vote for them. Jackpot's better. Well, Jackpot's also one of your nominations. Oh, that's right. We didn't have... It was never me versus you, right? That's right, yeah. Yeah, correct. Well, it might be coming up next round. Anyway, so Sopranos actually got through with 81% of the votes. Really? That's true. Yeah. It, um... Yeah. I guess it does surprise me that it was such a large margin, but Sopranos is criminally underrated. Oh, see what I did there? Criminal Sopranos? No, moving on. It's a good game. Yeah, it is a good game. And then the last one was NBA Fastbreak versus The Avengers. Oh, those were both your games. Correct. I think I picked NBA. Yeah, NBA did get through, but 57% of the vote. So it was relatively close. Do you think with NBA Fastbreak, the theme is what makes people not love that game as much? I think you've got two things. I think it's the theme and the way it scores, how it scores with baskets as opposed to numbers. I think people don't quite get that. I also think it's really shitty that you have to either memorize or have a cheat card or check in with the trivia. Like that's, unfortunately, it's so dated. I know. But probably even obscure for its time anyway. I don't know. You really have to be a fan of the NBA to answer most of those questions, even at the time, I reckon. Every time I play that game in a league, and we have one, it usually actually shows up in one of my league finals. I go on Pintips. I quickly read the 29 trivia answers to hopefully have somewhat of a memory of the obscure ones in case it comes up in that mode because that's the difference between 10 baskets and one basket. That's a huge swing. Anyway, fortunately, it's not a huge part of the game. If you get the question wrong, no big deal. So we go on to round two. Now, what we did for round one was one day of voting. Round two is much more important, Martin. It is. This is now going to get really complicated, guys, so you need to listen really careful. What we're going to do with round two is we're going to have the voting. I know, I know. Just stop me from going too fast. We're going to have the voting go for two days per battle instead of one. Get out of here! Yeah, I know, I know. thought I'd just switch it up a bit and confuse everybody. It's that important. It is. So here we go. So here's the lineup. You've got Barracora versus Mustang. So Barracora was your nomination. Mustang was mine. Okay. And then we've got Batman Forever versus Alien Star. So Batman Forever was my nomination. Alien Star was yours. Then it gets interesting because we've got Demolition Man versus Jackpot, which are both your nominations. and then the last battle is Sopranos versus NBA Fastbreak, which are both mine. So what this is actually highlighting is four of your machines got through to round two and four of my machines got through to round two. So do we want to influence the vote or do we want to talk about the results after it happens? Well, I think we're going to give our opinions now and I'm going to contact Dave Fix from Expo to say which ones are mine. and he'll forget completely which one's yours. That'll help me get my votes going through, but... You know that hurts. You know that can't be.
    94:10
    Too soon, Jeff. Too soon. Have you met Dave, though? Like you said, you have, but once? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, listen.
    94:19
    Okay, let's put things into perspective. Martin, out of you and I, who was the first person to get their Walter Day trading card? You know it was me. There you go, Marty. That's right. I'm just getting the tables crossed. Superstar 2019. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I get it in the pandemic year, all right? Just a side note. Congratulations on getting your trading card, by the way. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much. Holy shit, did it cost a lot of money. Oh, I've got to edit that out.
    94:48
    Podcasting pays. No, it was very sweet. It's a nice keepsake. I have a bunch. I actually don't have yours. I should have stole it off your fridge when I was there, but I think it's pretty cool. It's a nice little keepsake for the kids. Just so you know, Jeff, I did give you a card when you were here. So the fact that you did not take it home with you says a lot. This podcast is ending. This is it. We're done. Fuck off. This is done. I'm over this. Bullshit.
    95:17
    Let's just finish it up before we punch each other over here. Bullshit, you did not give me one. I gave you one. And if you tried to pass that off to me, on my 50th birthday. F you, that's not a gift. That's a, oh, I've got a bunch of these. That's a business card, you jackass. It's like I've got a present for you. It is a framed picture of me.
    95:38
    I would have taken it. I don't have it. There you go. I know you're full of shit, because you know how long it took me to get a head-to-head shirt from you? Oh, don't be like that. That's not my fault. Oh, yes. No, no, because I was meant to have those for Pinberg, but the t-shirt manufacturer didn't deliver them in time. And then, when they did deliver them after I came back to Australia after Pinberg, only the front of the t-shirt was printed, not the back. I then had to drive them all the way back to get them reprinted, and then I could give you a shirt. So, shut up. I don't even know what's on the back. It was the front logo I wanted, so I could look like Keith Owen winning his Pinberg thing that, I love that you put that in our video, by the way.
    96:23
    It's the drain monster. Maybe the big pinball machine that's eating you alive. I know, but it was the head-to-head logo I wanted. The point is, okay, let's influence the votes here, all right? Round two, here we go. Okay, so, Barracora versus Mustang. Barracora's yours. Please, go ahead. Well, if you hate Roger Sharp, and if you think what he's done is insignificant to pinball, then vote against Barracora and vote for John Trudeau's Mustang. Do I need to say anything about the gameplay, or is that enough? I'll just stick with that.
    97:00
    Good luck coming back on that one. You actually stole my line. I was going to say what you said about Barracora. You hate John Trudeau. So I think we both agree Barracora's a better game. Actually, listen, I love Mustang. Mustang's a fun game to play. And that was, I like the selection of the different multiballs, the different cars. it's a good shooting game. It borrows a little bit from Creature of the Black Lagoon and some other games, but... I'm going to use your logic. If you hate David Thiel and his music and his audio, then you hate Mustang. I love David Thiel, you bastard. If you hate Johnny Alcee, if you hate Lonnie Rock, Tanya Klaus, Wasteland, looking at all these great people that worked on Mustang, then you hate these people if you hate Mustang. So there's your logic. There are. I'm here on IPDB. Besides John Trudeau, you've got Camillo Pardo, John Yassi, Greg Fraze, Mark Galvez, Tom Kaiservat, maybe John Rothemel, Mike Redobel, Rob Blakeman. Oh, the Blakes are, yeah. We go way back. I don't know these people. They are real people. No, this is what I'm saying. They are real people with real feelings. So that's why you should vote for Mustang. These people put their blood, sweat and tears into this game. Besides that, you know, I know, it's a good tournament game. It's a fun shooter. The thing might not be for everybody and that's just cars and then limiting it down to a particular brand of car. But it's so, so underrated. You know another thing that's terrible, but fuck.
    98:45
    Who's drunk now? Mm-hmm. You know another thing that's terrible about Barracora? Oh, it's a street-level game. There's no ramps. Fuck off. It's a great game. There's drop targets you've got to hit in order. And increasing the horseshoe. Give me a break. The multi-balls. If you love two letters on one drop target, then absolutely vote for Barracora. What's the name of that GM company? Holden.
    99:20
    I'm a Holden fan, so fuck Mustang, all right? Whatever, Jeff. Let's move on to Batman Forever versus Alien Star. One with probably 20, 30 shots and probably 50 to 60 different rules that you can do versus one that's got one shot you can do and one rule that you can do. I'm not looking at IPDB right now. This is off my memory. So, yeah, Alien Star has one shot. Batman Forever has 30 shots. What's the good shot in Batman Forever? What is it? They're looking at it. There are so many. What I love... Type, type, type. No, what I love... Playfield. What I love is that you say you don't have to go to IPDB to remember the rule of Alien Star. Of course you don't have to go to IPDB. It would be the easiest thing to remember. Hit the spinner when it's lit. You are talking about a bunch of shitty generic shots. Yeah, I am. I'm talking about Alien Star.
    100:19
    That have no wow factors, that have no really memorable moments in it. There's nothing that you can go, oh, that was so satisfying, versus the game that might have the most satisfying shot in all of fucking pinball. I'm adding fucking in there.
    100:41
    Is that what you think is going to get your argument across? The more fucks win. All right? Vote for the... Forget the GIFs. It's the most fucks win. Duh. So, look, I know you're saying, oh, again, Alien Star doesn't have any ramps, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The ramps in Batman Forever are fantastic, particularly the one that loops behind the flippers. It is so cool. Anyway. Give me a second. I've got to kill... Hold on, hold on.
    101:12
    Hold on a second. I almost had a heart attack there. Massive centipede just went across my feet. I hate centipedes. I'm okay with spiders. I'm okay with snakes. Oh, you live in Australia. It's a bug fest. Yeah, exactly. Centipedes freak me out. Oh, I'm okay. Okay. You all right? Cool. Just like insects, all right? You don't need 30 different shots or 100 different legs. You need one good star, just like Alien Star. Worst argument yet Okay, so now you can argue amongst yourself Demolition Man versus Jackpot These are both your games That's a tough one If you like flow, Demoman is your game If you like callouts, I think Demoman is pretty darn good too Is there a lot to do there? There's a lot of wasted playfield I do like flipping up top I've never played it by holding the traditional flippers on the side ever But Jackpot and the casino run and just the brilliant code that is in that game, from a game we all know in Pinbot, I would lean towards Jackbot. Yeah, it's a hard one for me. I like the layout of Demolition Man because obviously I like flow games. I don't love its rules. I really dislike the layout of Jackbot and Pinbot before it. But I really like the rules of jackpot. It's not complicated, but what you've got to do is really satisfying. So, I don't know, I probably would go with jackpot, maybe. Okay. There are no losers there. I mean, I'm sorry that they're going against each other, but that's just the way you voted. Oh, shit. Why did I say that right before I'm doing the next round? Damn it. Yeah, correct. So then you've got my two, which is Sopranos versus NBA Fastbreak. It seems easy, but it's not. I mean, the interesting thing is these are both George Gomez games as well. So that's kind of interesting. They're both so underrated. But if I was to say NBA Fastbreak is underrated because there's not necessarily really all that much that I could say individually is underrated. I think people appreciate the layout It's just sort of the scoring that really puts people off But when it comes to Sopranos I think the theme can be a little bit off-putting And the art package is an absolute disgrace to eyes everywhere But I think that it is more underappreciated So my vote would go with Sopranos I would go with Sopranos too I mean, I probably won't vote in that round because, you know, I'd just like to see you get less votes. You don't have to vote in round four, people, if you're listening right now. Just show Marty where the love really is. So I think Sopranos is the better game. Great call-outs, lots to do there. Unfortunately, an easy multi-ball, but still, that's... I would own Sopranos. I think that's a fun game. I had Ryan's here for a few months, and I sort of missed it when it left. I really, really enjoyed it. Okay, so that's your round two. And speaking of games that are leaving, this has nothing to do with the overrated poll in which you're going to vote on by going to Final Round Pinball on Facebook. That's how you just like our page and you'll see the votes. We need your votes. Two days of voting for each round. But speaking of pinball machines that are leaving, when are you getting rid of your Lord of the Rings? I know why you're asking me this. Do you know what? I think I never need to speak to you in between podcasts. And the reason why I say that is, I tell you the most insignificant thing. It gets turned against me every single time. It's like when I say that I'm hungover and you're like, oh, I'm going to write that down. So the story is, guys, everyone knows that this Lord of the Rings has been the bane of my existence. I got it fixed. I was so proud of myself. I got it fixed and I've been playing it for weeks. It's been fantastic. I thought, you know what? I'll stream it. Within the second game, four things stopped working. Okay, I watched that stream. The one I noticed, I mean, I didn't continue to watch it. It was late at night, and it was something about going in the right in lane, the sling would flutter. Correct. It would fire the sling. And it actually stopped doing that later in the stream. What else was wrong? so the sword lock stopped working again so you would lock one ball in there and then when you would plunge the ball in the plunger lane it would release the ball in the sword lock so you'd have two balls even though you're not in a multi-ball and that's because the second switch on the sword lock doesn't register it works but it's a physical thing the ball just doesn't push it down far enough onto the switch And I put three different switches in there. I think it's to do with how tight you've got to tighten up that switch. It then loses some of its give with the switch. So that stopped working. The LED board where you've got the rings of men, dwarves and elves, whatever it is, in the center, that stopped working. And I've got to remember the fourth thing that I can't remember. The point is, I guess it's different, right, because of the pandemic. You would have somebody there to fix it. Exactly, exactly. I would. But anyway, the thing of it is, it's still such a fun game to play. I mean, I did manage, with all the stuff that wasn't working, I still managed to get to, you know, there and back again. I got five out of the seven gifts from the elves. I completed two of the multiballs. So I made quite good progression to Valinor. So I was happy with that. It's still fun, but it's got to go. Oh, you are going to get rid of it. So now the question is, what's coming in? There's new games. We just talked about how great 2020 is. Is there something that grabs you? Out of all the games that are available right now, I'm not saying you're going to buy it, but if you had to pick one out of all games available for sale right now, and let's not include LEs because you probably can't get them if you haven't already put them in, what would that game be? I don't know. I guess I'm probably waiting for Led Zeppelin to come out. I really want to play Stairway to Heaven, boring multi-ball wizard mode, whatever it is. Yep. It goes for 15 minutes and you feel just like you're falling asleep. That's the one I'm going to go for. It's only eight minutes long. Can I tell you why I like Stairway to Heaven? Can I tell you why I like Led Zeppelin? No. Actually, we're near the end of the program, so people can tune out now. Not interested. Okay. When you say people can tune out, that includes me, yeah? Okay. Come back in eight minutes and I'll tell you. Now, here's what it is for me. All right? I am a ginger. And one thing that gingers have a problem with is, um... Friend. Being... Fuck that cut deep. That's true.
    108:28
    When you're a young boy and you first start to develop crushes on people, you're not really considered quote unquote attractive to those people that you have crushes on. Oh sure, their parents think you're cute. Oh look at that cute little redhead. That doesn't help you. And I remember that grade 7, it was a school dance and I knew that Stairway to Heaven was always the last song. So, after the second, third dance, I knew that was my cue to go stand against the wall because nobody's going to fucking dance with me. But, I really started to like the song. Backtrack a little bit. I really liked this girl named Dorian. All right. She was cute. Kind of a tomboy girl. She would talk to me. You know, we'd have little snowball fights. This is grade five, like massive love. Snowball fight. You know, if you're in a snowball fight with a girl, that's like second base. All right. Back in grade five. Anyway, now we're in grade seven and she starts to develop. So now all the boys love her. I didn't like her because I liked her because she was a good person. I see people for what they are on the inside. Anyway, stairway to heaven comes up. Of course, I'm not going to ask her to dance. We were just friends, and now all the boys have our attention. I go to stand against the wall, and as I turn around, she touches my shoulder. She was taller than me, and says, it was like slow motion, do you want to dance? She didn't talk like that. I'm just saying it felt like that kind of slow motion thing, like, do you want to dance? I think I floated onto the gymnasium floor and danced like great seven kids do with, you know, your hands on the top of the hips and her hands on both your shoulders. Eight minutes of heaven. You don't think I went out and bought Led Zeppelin floor right after that to just relive that moment? Ever since then, my favorite band, Led Zeppelin. Okay, cool story. Okay, so thanks everybody for listening this week. You dick.
    110:18
    Oh, don't you have a favorite song memory? That's mine. I was starting to play drums at the time, so I'm listening to the rest of that album. When the levee breaks, come on, I'm hearing Bonham go... I'm like, holy shit, this is cool. Oh, wow. You never told me you were an accomplished beatboxer. Tell me, give me some more. Do I have to go get out my fucking kit and start playing in the background, all right? Do we have to do our own music? No.
    110:42
    Wow. Anyway, this has been fun, Marty. Go and vote. That's the most important thing right now. I'm talking about the final round. Where can people reach us? They can reach us at finalroundpinball at gmail.com if you'd like to send us a message. Guaranteed, we will reply to your message. You can go to our Facebook page, Final Round Pinball. Instagram is Final Round Pinball Podcast. And Twitter is at Final Round Pin. Yeah, sure, we'll reply. How long has Greg Silby sent us an email that we haven't even acknowledged? I don't know.
    111:12
    We'll get to you, Greg. All right? My partner's extremely hammered right now and hungover. And quite honestly, he's pissed me off. We don't know if we'll be back in two weeks. If you are, it will be a milestone, episode 20. I will be the responsible one being sober and give you the actual facts. I can't speak for my partner. But until then, my name is Geoff Teolis. My name is Martin Robbins. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We will speak to you again soon. Maybe.
    111:51
    their way to heaven