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The Great British Pinball Podcast Episode 9.1

The Great British Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 19m·analyzed·Feb 24, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

GBPP hosts debate playfield mods, Multimorphic's Princess Bride, and pinball restoration philosophy.

Summary

In this episode of The Great British Pinball Podcast, hosts Neil McRae and Scott Rundell discuss recent pinball topics including playfield mods (Jaws ball swallow, Bond ramp additions, Ghostbusters central post), the philosophy of restoration vs. modification, the Multimorphic Princess Bride machine, and upcoming community events like Texas Pinball Festival and PAPA. The hosts explore the tension between designer intent and player demands for mechanical fixes, with a broader reflection on how pinball's modding culture differs positively from the arcade restoration community.

Key Claims

  • Ghostbusters has a fundamental design flaw with the flipper gap that a central post mod doesn't adequately fix

    high confidence · Neil McRae, personal experience with owned Ghostbusters Premium; describes the ball rolling straight down the middle and how the post mod was ineffective

  • John Trudeau, designer of Ghostbusters pinball, was imprisoned for child pornography and is unlikely to have another Ghostbusters release in the same form

    medium confidence · Scott Rundell mentions this as a 'scandal' and notes Trudeau was fired from Stern and went to jail; states he's 'out now' but expresses doubt about future versions

  • The 007 Bond scoop mod sold hundreds of units at approximately £400 each, despite Neil's assessment that it doesn't fundamentally improve the game

    medium confidence · Neil McRae speculates on the popularity of the Bond mod based on sales figures

  • Multimorphic's engineering is impressive mechanically, particularly the magnet waterfall system, but their games look and feel like virtual cabinets

    high confidence · Scott Rundell and Neil McRae both acknowledge the engineering quality while expressing reservation about the overall aesthetic and appeal

  • Princess Bride is a well-regarded film with a 96% Rotten Tomatoes score

    high confidence · Neil McRae cites the rating when reconsidering his skepticism about the Princess Bride pinball license

  • LED GI (General Illumination) mods with colored lighting universally look poor and should be avoided

    high confidence · Both hosts strongly agree on this point; Scott mentions Gone Pinball Enthusiasts videos showing bad examples like Judge Dredd

  • Playfield protectors and hard tops are more trouble than they're worth due to alignment issues and installation problems

    high confidence · Both hosts express strong skepticism; Scott describes playfield protector experience on BSD, Neil discusses hard top alignment issues and Flash Gordon example

  • Jersey Jack Pinball (JJP) does not provide good customer support, making second-hand purchases safer than new

Notable Quotes

  • “Jaws ball swallow—for me, I wouldn't even go near it with a 10-foot barge pole. It's a big no-no for me. Again, fair play to the guy for designing and making it work, but, you know...”

    Neil McRae @ ~32:00 — Summarizes the core tension: technical respect for the modder's achievement but rejection of the mod itself on design principles

  • “Just because you can doesn't mean you should.”

    Neil McRae @ ~08:00 — Articulates the philosophical position against excessive or unnecessary mods, though he credits the quote as Asimov's (possibly via Jurassic Park)

  • “I'm pretty glad Multimorphic got that terrible license because it's a terrible license for a terrible manufacturer. It's just what it is. They don't seem to make good titles, and everything just seems across as just a little bit amateur.”

    Neil McRae @ ~40:00 — Strong negative opinion on Multimorphic's game design and brand, though he immediately concedes the engineering is solid

  • “What I do like about pinball, unlike the arcade scene, is that modders are pretty much accepted in one form or another... they're celebrated.”

    Neil McRae @ ~26:00 — Highlights a key cultural difference between pinball and arcade communities regarding restoration and modification

  • “Hard tops are junk. I'm sorry. They're okay, but I think the problem is they don't align right. Sometimes they just look a little off.”

    Scott Rundell @ ~54:00 — Expresses skepticism about hard top playfield protectors as a preservation solution, expecting pushback from the community

  • “I spent 200 quid on it [playfield protector], and I ripped it off. I was like, 'this is rubbish. I don't know why anyone plays with that on.'”

    Neil McRae @ ~51:00 — Personal anecdote reinforcing the hosts' skepticism about playfield protectors

  • “I really want to own that game because I think it's a great game... but I know the minute I buy it, I'll get it at home, I'll have some shitshow of a story with it, and I won't get any support, right?”

Entities

Neil McRaepersonScott RundellpersonJohn TrudeaupersonErnie HudsonpersonWallace ShawnpersonColin McAlpinepersonJerrypersonSeymour SlowcarpersonDaveyperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Extended discussion of when mods are acceptable: fixing actual design flaws (Theatre of Magic boards, Theatre of Magic Dracula bugs) vs. enhancing subjective preferences (Jaws ball swallow, 007 scoop). Consensus that mods should enhance, not change, unless addressing mechanical failures.

    high · Both hosts articulate clear criteria for acceptable vs. problematic mods; specific examples discussed throughout segment

  • ?

    product_concern: Ghostbusters flipper gap and ball drain issue is a known design flaw that code updates do not address. Neil attempted the central post mod but found it ineffective. Expresses frustration that moving flippers half an inch would solve the problem but designer did not.

    high · Neil's personal experience with Premium version; detailed description of the flaw and ineffective mod solution

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball has a reputation for poor customer support that actively discourages new purchases. Players deliberately buy on secondary market to avoid support issues.

    high · Neil McRae explicit statement about JJP and Elton John; expressed concern about buying new despite loving the game

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Negative sentiment toward Multimorphic's game design ('terrible manufacturer,' 'amateur' feel) despite acknowledgment of solid mechanical engineering. The acrylic playfield aesthetic is a dealbreaker for both hosts.

    high · Neil's strong critical statement about Multimorphic; both hosts' dismissal of Princess Bride despite respecting engineering

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball modding culture is more celebratory and accepted than arcade restoration community, which frowns on any modifications. Hosts view this as a positive differentiator for the pinball industry.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.240

0:00
Welcome to the Great British Pinball Podcast and here are your hosts Scott Rundell and Neil McRae. Welcome folks, Neil McRae here. This is part one of two of the Great British Pinball Podcast version, grocery version episode nine um we did a guest segment it ran on for a lot of time so we split the episode into two halves this is the first half and the second half is available on your podcaster and on youtube thanks for tuning in everybody and here we go episode nine part one Welcome, everybody, to the glory that is the Great British Pinball Podcast.
0:54
Actually, for the first time, we're hoping that we have a podcast where my platform isn't echoing, doesn't leap around the place, doesn't lag. So what you're actually hearing, I can't excuse myself, it's me, the real me, with my dreary Scottish accent. There's no technicalities that are screwing it up. Anyway, welcome to episode 9, which I still find shocking that we got past the pilot episode and we didn't do a Star Trek episode. Anyway, I am Neil McRae, I'm joined as always by my partner in crime.
1:31
Thanks very much Neil, but how you doing man, okay? It's been, this year has just felt like I have paddled and paddled and paddled and literally moved the cinema. It's only February. I know.
1:45
Next week, I'm in Spain all week because we've got our big Mobile World Congress. It's a big kind of telco show. I really don't enjoy it. It's too busy.
1:58
Barcelona, which it's like 150,000 people invade Barcelona for a week. You can't cope with it. And work's just been crazy. And we've had the club, which I'll talk a little bit about later. it's just been mental but I've actually played some pinball at home for the first time in ages which is good and you know I'm kind of thankful that I have had the opportunity to so I'll just run through actually for the listeners and the viewers on YouTube so we are on YouTube so you can see us but we're not really a video podcast we're an audio podcast So we're going to do our usual kind of sections What's new, we'll cover some of the hot topics Or the things that we think are hot topics We've then got a departure, we've finally got guests on the show We've branched out everyone So there's going to be even more of us And it's going to make the podcast probably a bit longer than most people will like but unfortunately that's life you'll just have to listen to us it is actually an interesting section so bear with us on that but we've got a section on there's a bunch of us from the UK going to Texas Pinball Festival so we've got a few of the folks that are going on the focus was talking about Texas Pinball but we actually talked about a lot of other stuff which is quite cool you let us know if you thought it was I want to cover a little bit about PAPA Professional Amateur Pinball Association which is back and alive and kicking. A little bit about a charity pinball event happening at Medway Pinball in Kent.

medium confidence · Neil McRae states he loves JJP games like Elton John but won't buy new due to expected 'shitshow' support issues and plans to buy on secondary market

Neil McRae @ ~42:00 — Articulates the JJP customer support problem that discourages new purchases

  • “When you look at it through that lens, you know, they've done something that's right. But... I think most of the mods that you get like this... they don't change enough of the game to really make the game change. And all you end up with is a different frustration.”

    Neil McRae @ ~15:00 — Expresses the core frustration with mods: they don't solve the underlying design problem, just shift the frustration

    • Paul M. Fresh
    person
    Sterncompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Multimorphiccompany
    Ghostbustersgame
    Princess Bridegame
    Jawsgame
    007 (James Bond)game
    Quicksilvergame
    Elton Johngame
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent

    high · Neil explicitly contrasts pinball's celebratory mod culture with arcade's purist stance; mentions Davey's Godzilla work as celebrated example

  • ?

    product_concern: Hard tops (thin playfield replacements) are criticized as ineffective solutions due to alignment problems, installation issues, and overall feel. Hosts prefer full playfield restoration/reprints when possible.

    high · Both hosts express strong skepticism; Scott's Flash Gordon example; Neil's detailed critique of alignment problems

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Colored GI lighting is universally considered to look bad; color-matched inserts can work if done well. Incandescent-style warm white is less desirable than cool white or color-matched approaches.

    high · Both hosts strongly agree on rejecting colored GI; comparison of three Theatre of Magic builds shows color-matched version looked better to others

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: Ghostbusters unlikely to receive updates or remakes in original form due to designer's criminal conviction. Discussion implies licensing caution post-scandal.

    medium · Scott's explanation of why Ghostbusters remake unlikely; speculation about future versions needing complete redesign

  • $

    market_signal: 007 Bond scoop mod sold hundreds of units at approximately £400 each, indicating significant market demand for playfield modifications despite limited effectiveness.

    medium · Neil's speculation on sales figures based on widespread adoption

  • ?

    personality_signal: Jerry (Multimorphic) is described as passionate about engineering by Scott, who has met him. Despite personal positivity, the company's game design output is criticized.

    medium · Scott's comments about Jerry's passion; contrast with critical assessment of Multimorphic games

  • ?

    content_signal: Episode 9.1 features a guest segment that ran long enough to split the episode into two parts. Guest(s) discussed Texas Pinball Festival attendance among other topics.

    high · Neil's introduction explaining the episode split and guest section

  • ?

    event_signal: PAPA (Professional Amateur Pinball Association) is 'back and alive and kicking' according to hosts. Episode plans to cover PAPA updates.

    high · Neil's statement in episode outline; will be covered in detail later in podcast

    • 3:46
    Scott's going to give us an update to some of the spannering that he's been doing and his new love of Twilight Zone as a pin. We'll have a chat about what junk that we've bought and sold, any games we've bought and sold.
    4:03
    A little bit on some good news on the club front, but also I wanted to thank a few folks who've been helping us out. And we're also going to talk a bit about Princess Bride and a little bit about Jaws and Godzilla and some challenges. So, Scott, what's your favourite hot topic of pinball right now?
    4:27
    Well, that's a good one. I think, to be honest with you, I was keenly interested to speak to the guys off camera as it were about jaws and the recent ball eating debacle and how someone else has tackled it around uh a mod and i think it goes into that you know it was interesting to see their viewpoint at least on what they perceive as i suppose a mod which isn't intrusive versus one which is and why that's you know for or against um based on on their opinion and i didn't feel people were going to feel that strongly against having a game that changed i suppose arguably the the geometry of the game but it does seem to be a really big thing a real big hot contentious issue for people um so what's your thoughts on that yeah look i mean i was kind of with with kind of i think paul's view which is mods are there to kind of enhance what's already been put down by the designer um unless Unless there's like some, unless it's like a technical flaw where, you know, so the obvious mod is the Theatre of Magic boards that you change the, what are they called? I forget the name of them. The Eddie boards? Yeah, and they're there to fix a crap board. So as a mod, that makes sense to me. But, you know, there's a bunch of guys that are adding ramps to TNA. They're adding, you know, a pop-up thing to Bond. And then there's the most hideous one that, to me, yeah, is the shark swallow mod, which isn't really the shark swallowing. it's the shark literally getting gobbled in the mouth with a a ball it's like almost someone like chucked it and and then it appears changing the game mechanically right what the guy has achieved by not creating any permanent change to the playfield is very talented yeah to create that like fast fuck system it's no small feat to kind of like go in there and go right how can i make this work how can i achieve what people are demanding which is some sort of ball swallow and I get that it's probably not as elegant as people would want it to be but I still admire the technical feat that he's achieved by doing it I think that's impressive I think there's a I can't remember whose line it is but I think it's Asimov's line just because you can doesn't mean you should No that was like that came from Jurassic Park Was it? Yeah but didn't they get They didn't stop to think if they could They should, or something like that. No, but I think they got that from somewhere else, though. Oh, did they? I don't think it's original to Jurassic Park. Oh, I remember it being famous from Jurassic Park. That's all I suppose. Yeah, you're right. I'm pretty sure it's an Asimov. I might be wrong on that, so I'm sure someone will point out. I know what you're saying, but, I mean, the problem is the demand was there for it, right? Oh, absolutely. And the same with the Bond thing, right? You know, the scoop part of Bond, let's face it, it's not the best part of the game. I get why people wanted to do something about it I think the answer is the wrong answer though because Bond's quite a return to flipper game and they've made it even more massively return to flipper on that side Let's go back to your point about what's your view then on Ghostbusters when they started adding in that central kind of like not post, what do you call it, like a central post It's like a down post The name of them The kind of guy that I think first started using them Was Steve Kirk On Nine Ball and Meteor It's called the Kirk Post And you kind of stick it in the middle And actually on his games I've got Stars here Which is a Steve Kirk game Brilliant old 80s game Amazing old 80s game If you haven't played one you need to find one It's brutal but it's glorious He designed this He put it in just about all the games That he made Meteor, Nineball, a couple of others And It works really well In that scenario But you've got to learn to trust it To avoid You can drill into the Ghostbusters playfield Spider-Man Spider-Man's got it as well It's got a central post And you can drill into You can drill it in and put one in if you want I think it might have been Mezzle that did this But they came up with this cool plastic That's sweet enough to drill in It just kind of stretched out And then went down And look I played a Ghostbusters with that on it So Ghostbusters for me I played it in Chief Coffee When it came out And a few places and I thought I've got to get one of these And I finally got a premium in the second run It took forever for them to arrive because Sturm moving the factory and blah, blah, blah.
    9:36
    And, you know, this was before I really started to think about how I played. I just kind of, the ball just hit the flipper. I just whacked it and hoped for the best. But then I noticed over time that I played Ghostbusters less and less because that flipper gap and the bit at the top where the ball just literally rolled down the middle, there's nothing you could ever do about that. it just irritated the hell out of me so when I played one with a sting and I thought this might be good and look it helped a little bit but it was still clunky you still had a lot of straight down the middle stuff even though that was there because it would bounce off in a way that just wasn't a helpful bounce it wasn't feeding back to a flipper was it was a chance of it still draining and for that post to work well there's going to be a decent amount of momentum in the ball and if you look at Steve Kirk's games,
    10:31
    you choose to use that middle post and the shots that you make. And he's done the geometry. So the horseshoe and nine ball, where you fire it, it's designed for you to hit off the post and up.
    10:47
    Whereas Ghostbusters has kind of been chucked in as an afterthought. Again, not a terrible thing, but largely not the same. So in a nutshell, you wouldn't say you're adverse to people trying to create fixes to your geometry, but where you feel it's not needed, you're just not a fan of it. No, so in that, in the Ghostbusters scenario, I don't think, well, I don't think that the, so, here's the issue, right? If they'd done that Ghostbusters mod and it made a massive difference to the game, I'd say yeah, right? But it didn't. Right. And I think, and this is my thing, I think most of the mods that you get like this, and I think the same is true for the 007 mod, They don't change enough of the game To really make the game change And all you end up with is A different frustration So my sense On it is I want to stick to the Designer but also Look The only good thing I think that comes out Of these things is I think We must have got that bad enough They sold hundreds of that mod For Bond you know and it's it's not cheap more it's like about i want to say 400 quid yeah um it's not cheap so so when you look at it through that lens you know they've done something that's right but i go back to ghostbusters um i didn't play mine for like about a month and then they finally came out with the final version of code i thought oh yes awesome put the code on and the code was much better but it didn't change the geometry and it didn't change the game and i basically decided day and then after about i did a stream playing the latest code which is on youtube um i decided into that stream i'm selling this game i don't it doesn't it just doesn't do it for me it's it's flawed basically um which is frustrating because the art is awesome yeah the music the call outs everything you know you get the mode uh this man has no dick i just made me laugh every time I heard it, right? They really nailed it on everything else. Just a shame about one thing, and we're talking about move the flippers in half an inch each, and you've made that game a million times better. I wonder, do you think they'll ever do a vault of it and then fix that?
    13:07
    I'm worried about licensing implications, I suppose. So there's a kind of a bit of a scandal with the designer of that game, John Trudeau, who was locked up for child pornography or something. Oh, really? Okay. He was still working as an employee at Stern at the time. He got fired, obviously. He went to jail. I think he's out now. But I think because of that,
    13:32
    I would be surprised if Ghostbusters ever came back in that form. Would they do a remake with the LCD and stuff? Absolutely. And if the rumours around Metallica are true, there's a new Metallica going completely redesigned. Yeah, you're right. That's coming up, isn't it? If that's true, then Ghostbusters, I reckon, must have also outsold Metallica 2-1.
    13:55
    Why wouldn't they do Ghostbusters? It's a theme that's well-loved. Yeah. Give it the game that it deserves because I think right now, it's not a terrible game, but it's not what it should be for that IP, in my view. Right. And they can add stuff to it now. you know you've got the the last Ghostbusters movie which actually I thought was pretty good I was kind of nice homage at the end as well where obviously you know one of the actors has died they put him in quite tastefully I thought they did a great job of closing that off I really yeah because I actually met um god what's the guy's name Ernie god damn it uh the the the Ernie Hudson is it? I'm not sure yeah I met him actually thanks to Stern I'll post the picture of me and him on the I'm pretty sure it's Ernie Hudson shows how well a fan I was of him basically but he's the ghostbuster that they hired the black guy yeah Ernie Hudson this guy he's the one that did all the call outs right as well for the Pimbleman Stern actually had him at the Stern 30th party where they launched Batman he was there, him and Zombie, yay and they were signing stuff, I got a bunch of great signs from that. Because his call-outs are really good actually sometimes you know what it's like when you get an actor in and they do call-outs, you're like you do act right the lines come across so stale I mean the other thing is with Ernie, he's been in a lot of stuff Congo and other stuff right, and I've met a lot, I'm one of those guys if I meet someone that gives me a kind of hero vibe, I want to meet them right I've met loads of people I met Firefighters from 9-11, I met Apollo astronauts, I met all these kind of wacky people I met a lot of actors that played great roles and Ernie was like the best actor I ever met I spent like 10 minutes chatting to him and he was just superb to talk to. You get some of these guys that won't even look at you when you're getting your photo taken with them. And most of them might have just been in the end and go away saying, never meet your heroes.
    16:23
    But, you know, he was awesome. Anyway, we'll move on from that. I mean, my take is, I was very much with Paul, which I think his mind was, your mods are there to enhance, not to change. and occasionally, look I mean this is the thing right what's a mod, so if I point to Quicksilver which is in my home right now, one of my favourite games of all time and this is true for Nineball as well there's a guy called Seymour Slowcar on Pinside who modded the code to fix bugs and you know if you're a purist you'd say no don't do that, I want the bugs, but of course you don't right? so is the fact there's annoying bugs in Bram Stoker's Dracula which I wish people would address but they haven't I think there is I remember there was partly a reason why that's not happening is to do a licensing there was a guy who was working on it that's a story for another day but the thing about would you and it goes back to what you were saying would you put a mod in to fix a kind of a design bug and a great example of that is James Bond the loop there's a bit of plastic so you keep the ball low so it triggers the opto. Is that a mod? Is that a fix? Is it changing that? I'll tell you one thing I do like. If we park all of 4-1 against mods based on whether they're benefit or not and this, that and the other. What I do like about pinball unlike the arcade scene is that modders are pretty much accepted in one form or another. You know what I mean? and in some places in most cases actually they're celebrated like we've brought we won't touch on this too long because we've mentioned Davey and we go quite into detail around the work he's done around the Tokyo Nihon San for Godzilla but my point being is that it's celebrated and it's promoted and I feel like that's a really nice thing about pinball in the arcade world you try and do anything other than leave it even if it's completely delaminated and the cabinet's falling apart they even frown upon you restoring it because it loses its intrinsic value it's like it's like when you put an lcd lcd into a tf yeah yeah away from the cathode ray tube yeah yeah and it's like yes and it's kind of like i mean i get what i get what they're coming at but crt's are just so hard to maintain now um impossible especially in our country and there's a couple of few people i know that can restore wellers and it's like would i want it either it's heavy and i don't get me wrong i love the pixel accuracy that you get from it but it's like if i was owning and operating an arcade amusement center i would just put lcds in yeah you're not going to sit there i mentioned riverside on the last place they've got tons of old arcade games and the screens on some of them i've got that kind of brown like burned out and then sure you know you still play the game but the quality of it like when you're used to kind of fortnite in 4k 120 frames you know you just really high definition rendering yeah you've got none of that there exactly when you get into like so my quick silver you know i've just actually a big shout out to both cruzman and keith um from new forest pins who who swapped the playfield for me and did a did a stellar job and and that instead of got instead of bulb holders and bulbs i got those new led um they kind of screw on I forget what they called Mojos No it not Mojo I know the ones you on about the guy in Australia makes them right There's a few guys, the ones I got were from the US, I think Oh, okay, but I know the ones you're on about It's like SMDs on a socket Yeah, it's a kind of flat bit of card and you just put them in you forget about it, you don't have to worry about them ever again, right? Well, exactly, because hopefully I mean it sounds horrible but they're probably out last year yeah definitely me man I'm like five years and I'm checking out and Martin will get my medieval madness long story on that but look on quicksand they're all LEDs and there's no doubt it enhances the game in my view and actually Martin what's his name he's like a real i don't know no leds no color dmd keep it orange keep it dull and pure purist yeah i just nah it just doesn't make that just doesn't make sense to me oh okay there's a flip side and actually mike parkins mentioned it to me he was he was at uh alan adair's um last night and he he's got he's got an original cactus canyon and alan's got the remake sure and he was like he said to me i need these sunglasses it gave me a sore head do you know what that was one of the reasons why I got rid of my character's canyon, I'm not even being funny, but the bloody flashes around the gunfight were so bright that I was getting a bloody migraine every time the gunfight was hit. You can turn them down. I couldn't find the option. I think I got so... The cat's out of the bag. I got rid of the game. I was like, it's gone.
    21:37
    Let's come back to that later on, right? But, yeah, I mean, look, I think it's all about, you know, your own personal taste, but there's a great thread on inside I'd encourage everyone to read which is I can't remember what they call it but it's like it's a list of basically people who bought games and then spent the first five hours removing crap mods usually some sort of LED puke that they've put on it Do you know what there's some things I don't like doing and I'll always stick to this GI for the love of god why are people colouring it? Yeah 100% Don't colour your GI it looks trash 100% agree There's some videos out there or even like some people gone pinball enthusiasts and they go look at my judge dread and i'm like i can't there's blues there's reds there's greens it's all over the joint i have to say i did that i kind of did that thinking it would be cool on one of my games i think it was actually it was next gen and then i backed it out because i sure i looked at a photo of someone else i was like my god that looks so clean i mean i'll be honest i i try and avoid any color leds unless there's a really i'll color match if i want to for the inserts but i think your one is a good example right so i've done three fear of magics as you know last year yours being one of them and yours was the only one i'd say where we did color match on inserts and yours look way more vibrant i went with uh cool white and the other one i built was warm white which is like incandescent white because he wanted it close to kind of incandescent why you want that piss orange glows beyond me but anyway like look the point being is that out of the three i think my wife said i like neil's more even though like you know ours is ours and she loves ours she liked yours more because the colors punched more on the inserts i'm all for kind of color matching i think when you can get more vibrancy out of the orange or out of the red it makes absolute sense but the gi frosted white yeah that's it Couldn't agree more, mate. I couldn't agree more. Okay, so look, I think we'll get to the mod section a bit later on, but obviously the other big topic, so Jaws Ball Swallow, for me, I wouldn't even go near it with a 10-foot barge pole. It's a big no-no for me. Again, fair play to the guy for designing and making it work, but, you know... Must be a bit of a mod, isn't it? You don't have to have it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it is personal choice, I kind of always remember in the back of my house I can't remember, was that high school or was it later where you had people driving around in what they called chavaliers because the mods on the cars were so bad the mods on the cars were so bad, you know, they had lights everywhere and one guy even had one he kind of put a wrap on it that was Burberry absolutely terrible it's kind of what's tasteful right and you know not everyone agrees with everything but that's a great thing as you see they're optional the other big topic I think Princess Bride yes the multi-morphic game yeah I mean I have to say I've watched a few of the videos I haven't watched anything live yet I'm not sure they've released anything live yet I thought they did a very Guns N' Roses style trailer yes especially with the girl getting excited. Yeah, going, oh, so... And I wondered sometimes, do you think she was playing it or they cut someone else in front? Because it looked like she was playing a little too well or the game was really easy. Yeah, I don't know. I actually... I have a feeling I know that lady or that woman. I think she's from the pinball community. Oh, OK. I don't know if they just pulled an actor off the street because I thought there's no way that she could be playing that well. Yeah, I meant to have another look at it, but, look, I mean, Princess Bride, actually, I'm going to confess, I have never seen that movie. I haven't watched it either. No, sure. But I don't know, it looks all right, and it looks like that 80s fantasy era, but I was like, I don't know, when I was listening to the call-outs and I was listening to the scenes, I was like, it just feels a bit boring. I was like, I don't know. I'll be honest with you, I didn't want to put anything negative on the forum, because there was a post about it, and they're like, oh, you know, I'm really glad it's Mike Morphing. and I felt like saying actually and I'm going to say it now which is just as rude I suppose I'm pretty glad Multimorphic got that terrible license because it's a terrible license for a terrible manufacturer it's just what it is they don't seem to make good titles and everything just seems across as just a little bit amateur I don't know so you're right in that they haven't had great titles but when I've looked at the engineering of their games it looks very impressive to me i i'll take it back yeah i'll give you that the mechanics especially around the magnet going up the waterfall absolutely perfect you know it's good but look i can't get my head around it and i it might just be again it's kind of like if we were arguing about purists going with incandescence the same thing with me pinball it looks like a virtual cabinet it feels like a virtual cabinet i just i'm never going to have one in my collection yeah i can't pay that kind of money for something that looks like a halfway between a virtual cab and a physical machine. Yeah, I mean, Princess Bride is supposed to be, I think it's a bit of a comedy, a bit of a kind of spoof-like movie. It's got one I mean, in terms of multi-morphic, you know, I've met Jerry, he's passionate about what he does but, and I've played all of the multi-morphic games and never walked away thinking I'm buying one tomorrow, right? Whereas, you know, I've played Elton John and I, you know, I love JGP because they don't look after their customers, but I'm really annoyed that I can't buy that game because it's great, but I know the minute I buy it I'll get it at home, I'll have some shitshow of a story with it and I won't get any support, right? Yeah, probably. But I really want to own that game because I think it's a great game, whereas... It's bought on the second-hand market after it's been always probably bedded up. Yeah, that's my plan. Yeah. But they've got in that in the Princess Bride, they've got one of my favourite actors a guy called Wallace Sean and he's kind of a bald guy, a little bit small he's in a load of stuff more for his voice but he also played I'm a Star Trek fan so he played the Grand Nagus which is the Ferengi leader oh yeah okay I should have remembered that when you said Grand Nagus yeah he's freaking hilarious and I kind of like him so I am planning because it looks like it's a bit of a kids movie as well am I right in saying that I don't know I imagine it's aimed at a general audience right so I'm going to try and convince my granddaughter to watch it with me over the weekend it's actually 96% Rotten Tomatoes not often you get that sort of score It struck me as a cult classic, but maybe it's not then. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, we'll probably get lambasted for being cult. Yeah, I know. I am normally a massive film buff, I'm not going to lie. I've watched a lot of movies in my life, but that one is alluded to. I'll probably find half way through, I've watched this. I just didn't know it was, you know, I've missed the start of it or something like that. You know, I do that on a lot of films. But I think, I mean, I watched the shooting. I mean, there's a couple of things. Colin McAlpine, a good friend of mine,
    29:20
    he actually came here a couple of years ago to play pinball. It was a bizarre thing. He was in Holland on work and we were running a tournament streaming. He's like, Neil, I'm in Amsterdam. I was like, mate, jump on a plane. I'm like 20 minutes from Heathrow. Two hours later, he turns up, which is devotion to pinball.
    29:41
    He's done the rules. Colin's an epic, great friend of mine, really good guy um i think the rules will be cool i'm looking forward to playing a tpf so but i'm still i'm with you i suspect and my prediction is i'm not gonna want to buy that game you're not gonna neil you're not gonna get yourself past that that weird glass play field or acrylic play field and it definitely the way the ball rolls on that thing yeah it sounds different do you know what it reminds me of it reminds me of people that put play field protectors on their playing machine I had one on my BSD I spent 200 quid on it and I ripped it off I was like this is rubbish I don't know why anyone plays with that on I bought a Stargazer and he didn't say I had a playfield protector and it arrived and I had one and I was like ooooh and I thought it was my lard on and I thought oh I'm screwed here I'm going to have to get a new playfield and get the whole thing swapped out actually it was a really he'd done a homebrew and he'd bought the rolls of stuff and cut it out himself and it was done so badly a little bit of hair dryer on it and it just came off easily i was like thank god it was and underneath it was beautiful so yeah i'm not a fan of them either same with those hard tops yeah i'm gonna say something very controversial that at least my friend uh paul m fresh on the forum is probably going to write to me and complain but hard tops are junk i'm sorry they're okay but i think the problem is they don't align right sometimes they just look a little off if you can make it align properly i'm i'd be like okay you know it's better than nothing but i'm i'm super unconvinced about them i've seen so many of them played them i played the worst flash garden ever had a hard time with it um i got me i'd rather go through the effort of having one restored like an original playfield restored and reprinted if you've got no other choice to save a pin than this then okay right sure but pretty much every decent game now, someone's making a playfield for it. Well, you say that. I mean, any Data East, and I know many people are big fans of Data East games, but there are a few of them at least that people might go after, like Jurassic Park and that. You can't get the playfields for them because no one wants to manufacture them. Yeah, you're right. I mean, there's definitely exceptions, right? But, I mean, if your favourite game is some wacky game, and probably chances are, you know, that might be your only answer. But, to me, they just don't feel right at all. and everyone that I've played has had some installation related issue well it's normally around the cutouts that's the biggest issue right also gluing it down because Paul had an 8 ball deluxe incandescence can heat it up yeah that's exactly what happened it was kind of cool we were playing the tournament league and you had to kind of over it's like paul i think you probably want to have a look at this mate and he's like ah but um yeah no it's it's a lot of work for not the best return in my view i'd say it's expensive time wise right to put those on but not material wise because obviously quite cheap but i think there are so many services you can use now where people will literally take a scan of the playfield for you you can restore the artwork and then reprint straight onto wood and then re and have bit clear-coated that's the thing half the effort you've got to take everything off yeah you have to take the the under sign off well you probably have to fiddle with that a bit if you're going to do that why not just go the whole hog that's my take yeah well i've done it twice i'm looking forward to prince bread i think you're you're right though i'm not sure it's going to move it's when i say terrible it's not like i'm just calling it like a phrase right if i say something's terrible it's probably they're not that terrible right but i do feel like from my perspective I wish they would try and do something physical I know it goes against their whole mantra and they're like hey we're trying to do something different in the pinball scene but I think they would have greater success if they just tried to do be more traditional I completely agree and what's kind of frustrating about it is these guys have been around a long time right I mean first TPF went to 2016, 2017 they were there then and they've allowed other people to come into the regular pinball market where they should have been all over that, in my view. You know? Well, it sounds like they've got the skill set, right? They can build the mechs, they've got the code, they've got the music. They've really got the money as well because there must be a shitload of investment in building all that. Well, I don't know how many weird hours they sold, but I don't know if they... Did they sell out on those? I have no idea. I know... But they did sell a few of them. I know... I mean, there's another friend of mine, Rob Byers, top row pinball on Twitch. He bought one because he loved... He thought that game was awesome. I mean, actually, Weird Al, I'd never heard of Weird Al until that game came out. Really? Wow. I watched him on YouTube and it was kind of, it was kind of, it was funny to watch some of the stuff he did. Some of the, there were great parodies. Like White Nerd, I can't remember what it was called. Yeah, but there was loads of parody music. But just don't watch it anywhere where you can get fired. Yeah.
    35:01
    Right, let's move on. So, look, at this stage, we're going to count in magically the TPF section. And so, basically, this will change. It will look like we've professionally edited it, if you're watching on YouTube. If you're listening, it will just be like, you know, our voices changed just a little bit. So, anyway, we were joined by Paul and Cole. and really appreciate him joining hopefully you enjoyed the chat, it was a great discussion I felt like we could have talked all night Scott probably could have as per usual you promised it would be a short conversation I'm going to stop promising timelines, the same with my wife I'm going to be home from this tournament, what time? about 6 and I'll float in at 8 you know you said you'd be finished at 6, yeah I got it wrong it was a great conversation a kind of conversation that we should pick up at pin fest and actually just a reminder about pin fest the hotel is sold out but the tickets have been uh big phil put on a great show last year we're all really looking forward to uh uh of course we've got tpf but pin fest again a home show uh actually i'm putting a call out i need three backing singers for the karaoke so if you're up for a bit of a laugh you don't mind making a fool of yourself and you can't sing. That's really important. No singers allowed. I don't know about you, though. My voice is always giving out by the end of Pymfest because it's so loud in there. You're having to shout. Your voice is knackered by the end of the day. Yeah, and actually, my disco performance last year definitely suffered about that. So I'm going to bring the old throat sweets and garble a bit so I can hit those high BG notes. I couldn't hit them. Normally I can hit them, but I couldn't hit them. Seriously, I've got a bit of a laugh. I have a karaoke idea that will go down like a house on fire.
    37:05
    Let me know if you are up for that. A couple of Pinball Republic guys volunteered. By the way, you will be auditioned. You have to be suitably bad enough to qualify for this. Here is the TPS section. We will be back after the break.
    37:26
    Hey, hello, everyone. I'd just like to welcome you to our segment on the Texas Pinball Festival Barbecue Extravaganza. I think Neil wanted me to call it. We're joined here today by two guests. I'd like to introduce you to Cole, who is known also as Collie Wobbles on both on Pinside and on Pinball Info. Pretty notorious, I'd say, for his work in the plastic genre. he's a connoisseur I would say of any kind of plastic protector for your playfields, I'm also joined by Paul is known relatively to be honest with you for a lot of his recent mods including a James Bond mod that I'm sure he'll be keen to talk about later on but it's a specialised mod that you can add to your James Bond Pro Premium or LE where you can add effectively James Bond being attacked by the laser, it's an infamous scene in one of the James Bond movies, of course we're joined here by Neil, I'm sure who needs no introduction.
    38:25
    Thanks, Scott. Luke, first of all, guys, thanks for joining us. Luke, this is kind of a last minute brainchild or brain fart, depending on how this goes, from me, which was, there's a bunch of us. So there's a few other folks going to Texas. Davey from Stumbler Mods is going.
    38:46
    Ant's going. Dave Bishop's going Mark Fitzsimmons is going and Paul I always forget his surname Paul Crook yeah on the forum so quite a bunch of us going to Texas which is great because usually it's me actually last year Davey was there but usually it's me and Martin Ayob and probably Martin's going actually, I never even thought about Martin but from Pinball News so we just thought it'd be good to kind of get a view from the guys on what are they expecting and then afterwards we'll come back and do a kind of a we'll take some kind of dubious photos of us in Texas of course, probably with our mouths full of barbecue or beer or both. Hopefully nothing too compromising Oh well hopefully it makes it more fun So yeah so like I say we do a little bit about you know what what going on And again we try not to be over on this The podcast is a bit of fun for us. We're not trying to make any money or win awards on it. We're just trying to talk pinball and chew the fat, basically. So with that in mind, Scott, why don't you lead us in with our guests? that after all these events, we've finally got guests, which I'm still amazed. I know. It's great. Look at that. We're expanding, everyone. Look at that. And to top it all off, we've actually got a working session going on. I dare say we might actually get some, like, audio issues later on, but I do apologise to you. That's a good point. My audience sounds okay, doesn't it? Because it was bust on the last podcast. It was. Yeah, it was incredibly echoey. It sounded okay on the playback. Anyway. Yeah, anyway.
    40:48
    So, yeah, I suppose, like, why would you like me to do this, Neil? Do you want me to start off with Cole and we can do an interview? Yeah, just pile in, guys. Yeah, sure. So, Cole, I've obviously alluded to the fact, the stuff you do. Now, it's not just limited to what you do around the plastics. Do you want to just give people a kind of bit of insight of what kind of stuff you've done for the pinball community?
    41:11
    Well, I'll start off where I started in pinball to be honest in 91 i bought my first pin um moving on from our kids we're gonna be bored when all the fighters come in started on pins um got my first one which was a funhouse i've had 10 of those in fact at one point i had i think about eight funhouses um so in the 90s i collected about 34 pins at a garage full of them all tombstone and one at the time just brought them out and played them to death and moved them on um generally like yourself fixed them up done a little shop on them uh moved them on made a few bob and over the years as we know inflation has just gone from strength to strength to strength and the turn is the tides now isn't it it's turning i think you mentioned like you've done them up and you shot them up is that when you started would you say adding in your own mods and putting in together your own protection or did you come at a later date it was a later date but i think i joined pinfo in 2016 and then i thought it's all like bits and bobs filtering through there wasn't a great deal of mods not like we see the mods today sure which is crazy and i actually started buying mods and it was simply getting mods for my pins and thinking christ oh my you know 60 from america and mad shipment and it was a piece of really bad printed plastic um and i just started doing my own i just i bought myself a laser i've always been good at um kind of drawing stuff up on computers it's just been a hobby of mine i started from there just where did you find that laser from by the way because it's not exactly like your small sort of flatbed scanner it's a story in itself actually because when i bought it i bought an year four laser and that leaves me thinking i I was going to get this little flatbed scanner company. Yeah. And this thing turned up and it was a meter by around about 80 centimeters. And I had to put it in the office and I had to vent it out of the window. And all of a sudden the whole house was like, oh, my God, what have I done? It was a long, long learning curve. A lot, you know, took me quite the time.
    43:30
    It's like when your wife bought a new pinball machine. it's worse than that it's worse than that because i i tapped up a friend who was working with chinese lasers and i went to see him and he had all these burn marks on the door and i was like what you've been burning the door he says all these things leak all over he's burning all the furniture around him and i was like my god and it was so badly made and well i went overboard and i spent a bit money you got a real good one and then that led on to the size problem of ear 4 so i bought myself a big one i let him do near enough a meter so you've been scaling up as it's gone along basically yeah yeah but generally you don't use that that length you know i think about 640 would have been good enough i think the longest i made you do was probably about half a meter right for the alien stuff that was fairly long yeah i've just added to that as well i've done very well for alien stuff stateside's been really improved from that video. I was going to say, I was speaking to Ant about it, because I know he's done some extra pieces with you now, and he was showing me some pictures of them.
    44:39
    Anyone who's interested in who has a Pinball Brothers Alien machine, regardless of what edition it is, whether it's the LV, Ripley edition, or standard version, it will all work.
    44:48
    It's definitely a good set to look at. So by all means, reach out to Collie Wobbles on Pinside if you're ever interested. yeah i've found video you don't have actually of getting orders pretty much on a weekly basis or i don't i got a lot of traction on that video actually i think i hit like 1800 views in one week which was quite good if i want this for something as you say it's just seen i think the difference is it's like i don't know about you guys but like i've noticed like spooky and and other vendors now started adding in those sort of plastic protectors and some of it's just based on aesthetics they've realized that it just looks better to add an accent of a color around the plastic rather than just simply say here it is to protect it i mean like alien it definitely added light because it's good at diffusing the light and spreading the light so that you ended up basically building more of the playfield up because it's naturally quite a dark game so yeah don't think of it just simply as a plastic protector i i got into i mean i used to think why do you need them um but then i saw matt vince had this attack from mars with a the green egg you know the clear green luminescent green yeah and the light just kind of pings its way out of the sides and i thought holy shit that looks awesome um and and you know when again a game like that so the williams one's very dark the i've got a remake it's not quite as dark but even on it it looks it looks phenomenal so i'm i'm a i'm a i'm a convert i think the other con i mean i kind of got into pinball 2016 i said i mean i was buying a few mods but one of the things i'd say and paul be good to get your take on this because i mentioned it today which is the mod community has gone from i mean i'm not trying to i'm sure people did lots of great work i'm not trying to kind of take away from that but it just feels like mods have got to a new level of kind of um manufacturing quality and with that obviously cost but I remember playing a Jurassic Park in a competition where some guy had bought those clear buckets of dinosaurs that you buy your kids and stuck them all over the freaking play field and I'm playing and all of a sudden this freaking T-Rex has been hot glued in it bounces off i'm like what the it cost me a match i was human about it um but now you know i've got your godzilla mod which is like on i mean even the guys at stern so i i was in chicago and i mentioned them that godzilla mod and they're like oh um you know we're super impressed by that and and unfortunately they're not they're they're not allowed to actually put any mods in their games or at least not admit that they've done it really yeah which you can kind of you can kind of understand why right um i yeah i've sent one um i won't say who it is but definitely somebody at stern has got one uh i've got a i've got a rule that uh if anybody at stern reaches out to me they get one for free that's all right that's it that's it that you're gonna get in a day but i I mean, genuinely, though, the quality, like I've just installed Davey's Area 51 mod. And apart from me wanting to shoot him for how complexly fiddly it was, what a difference it makes. I mean, that's the key thing. Right. I think I think one thing that's changed in the mod community, at least because I've only joined overseas since 2019, really. So I think it was 2020, actually. But over those span of years, it's definitely, I would say, seen quite a radical jump of people just creating simple lighted mods, I would call it, to interactive mods. I think that's one key. Yeah. The interaction, the interactivity is what's changed. So I got in 2017. I was just looking at my profile, actually, on the UK forum to see when I actually got into it. Also, 2017 was when I got in and on the forums, Pinside and UCAM, known as Jazz Boucher and Mojo Mods sort of thing. But so when I when I started, it was all like you said, it was just like either trinkets, people gluing stuff in or just static pieces of plastic that would slot over or just hook up to a light. Right. And you just get an LED that would light up and that would be it. And my first machine was Star Trek Next Generation. And I I I just messed about with it. Right. So I it's a it's a weird one. I got into pinball. It's really weird thinking back. I wanted a stand-up desk and I was thinking to myself, what can I use as a stand-up desk that will be cheap? Oh, pinball machine nobody wants pinball machines anymore So you knew about pinballs before that obviously Yeah, but only, no history with them, no sort of like no nostalgia or anything my background is in toys actually anyway so I love anything that's toy or game or play related and so I was thinking like, well a pinball machine would make a great stand-up desk I could convert it and I thought I'd go on Facebook and find one for like 200 quid and it would be cheaper than going to Ikea and all this how fun that was, right? Obviously, but you know what it's like and you start sort of delving a bit deeper and scratching the surface and suddenly you get a bit hooked and you start playing the online ones and then you, you know, so I got Star Trek and I loved it but I started fiddling with the you know replacing the Romulan ships I bought three ships that are different size I put some led strips in and I was just mucking about and then I cut some plastics and I thought oh the future's in plastics that's where the future is for mods you know and then uh yeah I was right but Cole another problem I have always noticed was the scaling so some mods were really quite large and they didn't really fit within the world like sometimes you get like someone sticking an action figure as example in there that would be like I don't know eight inches tall I think that's really the balancing act of which mods work and which ones feel out of place and sort of stuck. Like if it stands out like a sore thumb, it's not working. And I think for me, the turning point, because I was making, so my second machine was Indiana Jones, I think. And I made, yeah, I love it. Well, I'm a huge indie fan as well anyway. So I made some pop bumper caps, which I'm still making, actually shipping a few today, funnily enough. Is that similar to like Stumbler's like lollipop GI pop bumper caps? Well, it should be now. But back when I made them, they were like the like we're talking about. They literally just plug on and they have the light from underneath. They don't do anything interactive. Right. They're more like a sculpture, I'd say, that just amp up the design. Yeah, just build more light, basically. Yeah, and all of that. And I've really enjoyed making those. And I think they do add something to some of the earlier games. If I was to redo them now, I would build in Stumbler's kit. And I think that was a turning point for me. So Davey and the work he's done, maybe since, I mean, when was he on my radar? I was doing, or have been doing a topper for Indie, which is like based on the arc design. And I remember reaching out to Dave because I'd started seeing his kits and I was thinking, I want some interactivity and lighting effects. And so we had a bit of a back and forth and I started seeing his kits and starting to just realize that they offer this level of interactivity, which I wasn't seeing in other mods. And then I think he dropped the Tokyo Neon sign, right, which was his big one. And when that blew up, I realized that I think that was a changing point, I think, with mods, because that was the first mod that felt like it was part of the game, that interacted with the game like something that, you know, was stock that had come with it. It looked manufactured, right? Exactly. From an actual proper, like, full-blown manufacturer of pinball machines. Yeah, yeah. The finish was good. The instruction, you know, the kit, everything was, whereas you're used to just getting, like, you know, a sort of photocopied, very basic instructions. if you were lucky suddenly you've got like really detailed instructions um really good support if you know he's always there on messages helping you get through if you've got any issues he takes care of it you know and i hadn't had that before anywhere you know you're right with the instruction set sometimes i mean like i think um and if he was here be talking about his apron that he received from pinball brothers i say from pinball brothers let me specify it's a mod for the pinball brothers alien machine and the instructions it's like wonky cam youtube and it's it's terrible it's like this is the thing i think i quite like when we're seeing like you know mods from yourself and from stumbler and from other people now like uh art of pinball and that is that the quality is stepped up yeah and now we're seeing people going well that's what the standard should be now with you've set the precedent let's maintain it yeah i mean just on on the talking one actually if you Google for pictures of Godzilla now, it's hard to find a Godzilla without it. I mean, everyone I know, I was watching Carl D'Angelo stream Godzilla a couple of weeks ago, a couple of months ago, I think, and he's got it, and I've got it here, and it's just so well, it just adds like a little edge to the game that makes it stand out, and the other ones that go with it, I've got them in order and I think for me I think the change happened around when Iron Maiden came out because so the last big game I would say before Iron Maiden and I'll probably get thousands of people declaring some other game but the last big game I think was Ghostbusters and Ghostbusters generated a lot of mods but they tended to be I'm going to say it rubbish frankly most of them bits of gunk that glued onto various bits. You look at 3D printing, though. I think that's moved on, right? In the last, God, even just the last year, I would say you've got people like Bamboo Labs, for instance. They're making their 3D printers now. I don't know if you guys have seen their 3D printing kind of quality that comes out from that now, but I think that's also helped. I would have wished, to be honest with you, if you look like Galactic Tank Force, they used 3D printing, I believe, for their tank model at the front, and it's got that obvious sign of 3D printing on it way it looks how can i put it not like finished it's got that kind of stringy kind of look to it looks like a it looks like it needs sanding down you know absolutely yeah even i mean that's the great thing about something like that they're able to kind of you know it's part of the challenge paul you probably know this and call you probably know this really well but getting plastics done so i i moved jobs to work i used to work for telco and i work for a manufacturer of stuff and we've got this plastic trim that's got our logo and a couple of lights on it just getting that done, Jesus, how hard is it? It's like one of the longest poles in the tent. We're building ASIC semiconductors but we can get that done quicker than we can get just a simple bit of plastic on the top, it's nuts, so it's kind of, in some ways it's a blessing and a curse because you prototype stuff pretty quickly but yeah, you want to get it, but I noticed a difference with Iron Maiden, some of the mods that came out from Iron Maiden, like I got the Spitfire mod that kind of, again, it's not super interactive, but it's a little bit interactive. And I just think, I kind of feel that, again, Ghostbusters as well to some extent, but when Iron Maiden came out it kind of felt like there was a bit of a step up and it was a phenomenal game, even if the music's terrible, but it just felt like something that actually I don't want to put I'm not going to put anything that doesn't look great in this game because it's such a great game and actually David Fix from we mentioned American Bimble he's actually going to be at Pinfest in the UK this year which is awesome he's a great guy actually I showed the 3D printer I saw they've got like a farm of 3D printers I saw them when I was in Chicago phenomenal facility there actually quite a well kept secret how big their facility is but yeah it's I just think I mean it's great I mean I've got in my hand a pair of 007 things that Colin knocked up for me for my speakers and it's a simple little thing but holy shit it just makes the game much more noticeable when you put this on you know the overlays on speakers with a little bit of light on the background and you know simple things like that and then there's the complex things like your Godzilla mod like some of the other things that are out there and it's phenomenal but the thing I always say and I kind of said this to the Stern guys when I was last with them, I was like guys you're leaving so much cash on the table I was going to ask you guys that do you think then when it comes to mods are they purposely leaving stuff out because they're trying to say hey modders do your element do you think Do you think that by having the modders getting higher, better quality stuff and seeing stuff like, you know, your stuff, Paul, and Davey's work around the Tokyo and the Air, do you think they're going, well, actually, we just leave those elements to the modders? I don't think so.
    58:25
    Sorry, Carl, go on. I'm saying I don't think that at all. No, I don't either. I think they've obviously got cost challenges and BOM and all the rest of it and whatever profit margins they need to hit. I mean, that's always the designer's challenge, right? You've got the company and they'll set all their goals and targets and financial constraints and all the rest of it. And the designer just has to work within those. So I don't think I don't think Keith Elwin is sitting there thinking I'll do a bit of a rubbish Godzilla to let somebody else do a really good one. You know, they're doing the best they can. And I think, you know, every friend once told me that every company is good at a certain type of thing. Right. So, you know, Stern are really good at rule sets. Deep. I think at least just my personal thing, I think their rules and the way the layouts as well as some of their designers. are just superb um some of the other companies you know might might be better at uh quality overall you know things like that i don't know i just don't think it's i don't think the sculpture and the design elements are i'm not going to say it's not their forte but i just don't think they always focus on it i think i just feel like there a lot of like plastic cutouts where there could be a full three dimensional sculpt three sculpt as an example I don know as you say if that a limitation of as you say design gap as in skill set gap or if it's just a bomb issue. My take on that is, so on the pro look...
    60:05
    Pros are different, right? I get you. The pro is 100% aimed. It's sticking it in a pub, and the game absolutely hammered. That's what it's built for. So they want games that are easy to fix, easy to manage you know don't need you know if you lose a you know a chunk of plastic okay it's bad but it's not the end of the world right and and i just think i mean the one the mech that used the first kind of weird mech well not even a mech but kind of sculpt and it was probably nicked from somewhere was you know deadpool's springy head that on the first batch all the springs snapped um and everyone was everyone there's videos of people whacking deadpool's head with the flippers I just, my sense is Stern just don't want shit like that they're not, they're still very much focused that this is a game where you stick money in it and you make money by sticking money in it, that's my take, the premium LE you know, slightly different, so they tune it up a little bit but also, the other thing not to forget though is, if you make something that's like the IP of someone else, the effort you've got to do to get that approved by the IP holder can be... Yeah, I kind of forget about that. You're right. Yeah. JG got a load of shit for using cake stuff for what was it?
    61:28
    Toy Story 4. They were getting... They basically found the things that they needed. It was already made to stick on a cake and they just thought, actually, we can just use that. And the advantage is it's already approved. It's already got the certificate of authentication as an approved thing, so they don't need to do it again. So, yeah, I mean, it's interesting. But I do think, you know, I think if you're Stern or you're JGP and look at, I mean, I think the Pinball Brothers for sure, you know, they're looking at some of the stuff that's coming out. You know, they are a pinball guy. He's working with more of the players directly. So they're clearly looking at it and thinking, holy shit, this stuff's actually good. Well, I was wondering that, you know, Because the Pimple Brothers have taken kind of a different stance, right, to all the other manufacturers so far. This time around, they've partnered directly with a modder and said, hey, we'd like these as official accessories. Because I don't know about you, the way I define a mod is something made by yourself, Paul, like by Colt. Someone buy an external to the main company and it's added in afterwards. An accessory is something I think that comes from the manufacturer. So if they build a shooter rod and you add it in, that's an accessory. If you buy the topper, it's an accessory. so for me looking at like what they did with pinball brothers and the alien sculpt and all the various other elements they've added in i don't really perceive those as mods now i see those as accessories as upgrades i'm wondering if stern will ever approach a modder now if they see what pinball brothers have done and say we could do that during ghostbusters they did actually work with uh miso mods for a little bit oh did they yeah you could buy on i think that might even still be on the website. You could buy some of the mods that Measle had done as kind of like a pack.
    63:16
    Again, I think it goes back to Paul's point, which is I think Stern realised that they're just not geared up to build that sort of stuff. They struggle with toppers, which the toppers that they put out are hardly the most complex things in the world, but they've even struggled with them. I was talking to Tim Sexton, who's one of the coders at Stern, a really good guy, he was telling me about how quick it was to get the game out for Black Knight, but the topper just took forever for them to get it pulled together, basically. I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? These guys, they make pinball machines, and it's amazing. I mean, Stern, the speed with which they get them out to market and everything else is great, but toy companies make toys and that alone, it takes a year or two to get a good line of toys to market. And that's when you're dedicated to it and you know what you're doing and you have the factory contacts and everything else. But like you said, Neil, I think it also goes back to the licensing things. And I think when you work with a modder, then you've got to build in license approval and everything else and you go through all of that, which is... Super difficult. It's complicated, yeah. And I think the only thing that I would say to that, which I think is weird is just the Godzilla in Godzilla is just a very that isn't based on the films or anything. It's green for starters. It's based on the artwork it's based on the fantastic artwork but you know it's just not I don't want to be disparaging on anybody's work because obviously somebody has sculpted that but it's not what I would have given the green light. Not what I would have envisaged for Godzilla, I must admit. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you could argue around the colour. I suppose they were trying to make it more bright, colourful, but it's weird when the movie shows it in grey. Yeah, I like the artwork. Don't get me wrong. I love Zombietti's artwork, and I actually don't mind the green. I'm not, you know, I don't have a history with Godzilla, so I'm not, like, beholden to any colour palette there. But I just mean the toy itself in the corner needs to represent that toy on the playfield. So it needs to look badass. like the artwork does, you know. And that was a big opening for me, really. And I was actually, you know, as Davey will tell you, it was probably a year or so after owning the machine that we were debating stuff. And I'd had it on my radar doing this Godzilla. And I just looked around and realized still nobody had got around to doing it. So it was a bit of a... The obvious thing to do as well, really, wasn't it? It was in hindsight. And I think now everybody would jump on it. You just have to look at Jaws and see how much, you know, everybody is diving in. I think, I mean, I wouldn't, the only thing I'd say, Paul, and I think this is clear to you, if you haven't seen the Godzilla mod that Paul's done, please take a look at it, because it goes back to your point about the right size, the right dimensions, the right fit in the machine, the right, you know, the right, the bits that the interactive bits that, you know, generate some value in the game. And, you know, that you just look at the, the danger of going for something like that is you kind of do something that's maybe a little bit better, but still not quite what it's to be. And I think credit to you. I think you, you know, I think you kind of, you kind of nailed it on that, but there's still, you know, I look at, you know, it's kind of weird because I look at some games where, you know, you look at the topper that they've put out from the remakes and, you know, the top of them just absolutely outstanding. You mentioned Star Trek, Stern Star Trek With the ship The detail level in that ship It doesn't really do a lot It moves a little bit but it still looks great So I think they can do it I think when it's a big set piece And it's part of the game I think they do try to put a bit of effort in I think they are capable They definitely have some talent We should move on Can I just end on this one thing About Godzilla You were on about Stern that they can do this and they can do that. But they brought out the topper and they put the same cut on the topper. That is quite embarrassing. And at the moment, mine's at Davies trying to get her dressed, so he's going to put a little bit of magic in it. If you notice at the right-hand side of that topper, there's no light on that building. I like the way the building's lighted up. But on the right-hand side, it's just not. I've got to admit, that topper, it felt like a missed opportunity. But yeah, we weren't dealt with. It was a shit show. It's turned into a mod podcast, isn't it? Yeah, which is fine because it's what people are into. And, you know, you guys are making some great stuff. Scott started to dabble in this as well. I mean, the only more I can. I don't envy you guys doing it, honestly. Making that top of the road. Can I just say one thing about the stuff I do? The stuff I do is nearly always community-based. So someone will send us a text. Yeah. Can you do this airball ramp protector? Yes. Can you give us a rough sketch? can you take a photo I haven't got that pin if I've got the pin I'll do everything on it everything um or someone will say I've had this crazy idea I'll say I'll work with that so a lot of my stuff is kind of designed by the community and you know I design it on the laptop and I do prototypes and I send them back and forth but it's the actual community I do what they want I can attest to that there's a lot of purists I just want clear protectors I want to keep it because there's a lot of RGB in the GI or whatever but then you get the likes of Scott who's here right, Cole can you do clear protectors but can you etch every one with a circuit board on and I'm like oh my god I do love giving Cole hard work but since I know you're capable of doing it Cole I mean the other thing though is you also fit our needs where like so I broke the plastic ramp thing on actually I didn't break it, someone broke it in the club on Avengers and it's turned an avenue so literally you've got this thing where you fire up the ramp and the ball just keeps going but you're able to knock out I sent you the broken part you're able to knock out a couple and send them back to me and the game's up and running again that's a really good point for those of you who have out of print plastics that are just not even available. Like, you've got maybe, like, an old EM, and you're just like, look, I need something. Like, coal can take any old plastic and effectively, like, take a trace of it, make it better as well, thicker, stronger. A lot of people forget about one of the main ones. It's the clear sets, you know, the sort of ball hang-ups. On the old machines, they'll do a lot with the old machines, and they'll put these old yellowed clear plastics on, honest with just to replace them clear plastics and it's phenomenal how the pain looks all right let's move on let's let's jump to texas so a couple of weeks time um actually it's a week earlier this year texas which i think might it'd be interesting to see what happens so there's two big changes in texas um one is a week earlier so it kind of there's a thing called spring break which is usually around where texas is so it's a week earlier so there's some folks i know like so colin mccall pine who usually runs a tournament a big tournament player he's not going to be there and they've got someone else around the tournament and then also um the people who run it so there's three people who ran it and two of them have retired and sold the kind of tpf business if you could call it that to a new organizer so um it's kind of in some ways you I think there'll be some changes to the show, and it'll be nice and fresh.
    71:23
    But for me, this is a mecca of a show. And actually, until last year, just a bit of history, I don't ever recall them ever a game launch being at TPF. It used to always come either just before at Christmas or New Year, like we've just seen with Jaws, or it would be just after.
    71:45
    And I'm trying to remember the last game that just came just after. I want to say After Jaws? No, no, this was just I'm trying to think of the last game You're going to let me know what the next game is, that'd be great No, I wasn't going to let you know I think, no it wasn't Stranger Things there was another game, actually it might have been Rush where it didn't come out in TPF but it came out, no it wasn't Rush and basically Stern would usually do game launches kind of MGC, which is closer to Chicago. The TPF didn't see a lot of game launches. Jersey Jack did a golden, sorry, the yellow brick road version of Wizard of Oz. Sorry, it's gone in my head. They launched that there. But then last year we had this kind of insane launch madness. I think six games launched. Last year was a really good year to go. I wish I'd have been there for that. This is the reason I was going. I missed last year. Let's just hope this year is half as good.
    72:54
    And look, we've already seen one game. So Princess Bride, I mean, effectively, TPF is going to be the first chance to play that. Just launched this week from... Multimorphic. The P3 guys. Actually, Colin McCabe, I just mentioned, he's done the rules on it. It looks exciting. although I have to say I always think P3 it's like close to pinball but not quite pinball. It's kind of like a virtual cab mixed in with a physical right isn't it? It's bridging the gap. It's a lot of fun but it doesn't I never feel like it's something I've wanted to buy yet and it's not cheap either which so if you, well nothing cheap right but it's trying to get that game where it gets the kind of volume that Godzilla is. There's a very strong rumour that there'll be Twilight Zone.
    73:44
    Well, that's the... You're going to see a Prodetti game there for 100%. You will see a Prodetti game there. So that's two games we know of. After building a Twilight Zone, I've been credit to him. I'm never building another one. I hate it. I'm done with this game. Honestly, I hate it so much. It's such a pain in the ass. So many goddamn parts. I don't even know how they're going to do it. The bit of materials in that game is insane. It's burying me in debt. I think everyone's wondering about the price.
    74:14
    I'm sure there'll be a couple of other things. The other thing that's always great about the TPF that I particularly like, and actually, this is the thing, it's always been a bit more of a community thing where, especially on the Friday night or Saturday night, where you've got the bars open, a few beers, you just wander around playing pinball with your buddies. It's such a great event for that, better than any other event in my mind because there's lots of space. How long do they stay open then for the day? So on the Friday, they usually stay open until 1. Actually, last year, they stayed open until 2 because there were so many new games there. It's kind of weird. Word got out that, you know, there was lots of games going to be there. And then I think a lot of people just literally thought in the U.S. that I'm getting on a plane because I want to see this game. I mean, the massive game last year was Pulp, and I still think the queues for that will be intense. and there was others as well Godfather was launched there that didn't do quite as well as I think they hoped although I actually thought it wasn't a bad game but yeah, it's great and of course Texas itself it's kind of one of the richer states of the US So it's a nice place to be.
    75:36
    And they got great. I mean, the food there is all just insanely good. So kind of with that, Colin, give me, you know, what's your, what are your hopes and wishes for the show? What are you, you know, are you taking an empty suitcase to load it up with bits? What are the bits you buy in?
    75:55
    Well, a lot of the machines you mentioned last TBF, I haven't even played them. So just playing Pulp Fiction, playing Jaws, you know, these games, Labyrinth, you know, these are new games for me. So going over there, I'm going to experience them as well as anything that might be coming along. It'd be nice to see Progetti out of that build quality.
    76:19
    I'm really looking forward to it. See how it holds up again. Sorry? I was going to say, see how it holds up as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm really looking forward to Spooky's new outings as well. you know I've got Scooby and he's a big big fan of Spooky Bud I like Spooky I like the games I just don't like the fact you have to spend forever making them work you know I've had Rick and Morty I've had TNA I've had little niggly things with them both very slight but I wouldn't see it any more than I have with Stern games Rick and Morty and TNA in my view are Scott Dinesi games the guys at Spooky put together It feels like that The build design and thinking behind them at least in my view The music as well We had Alice Cooper and actually Alice Cooper is what I'd say is one of from a rules point of view and gameplay point of view it's a phenomenal game we have one at the club but jesus man the amount of effort we had to put into it to keep it going and also you get weird things like we're we're in the league there obviously and i'll be flipping and all of a sudden 40 million gets added to my score and everyone's looking at me i just do that i'm like i've got no idea and i'm pretty sure at least on one of those occasions it was some dodgy switch that was like oscillating and i got something i shouldn't have got. But no one, that's the thing, we could never get the game to work reliably enough for long enough that we really understood how the rules went. But Bowen Kerrins, like rules genius, he's done rules on Labyrinth or at least part of them along with... I think these boutique companies cater more for the whole market. Oh, absolutely. There's no question about it. I mean, Kirk who runs Tail, they had a Scooby there and Kirk was like, just the amount of effort. You've got people putting pound coins in it, it doesn't work that you know it's just uh especially the way it's priced as well isn't it you're never going to get return on investment on a labyrinth if it's going for like 10 000 plus in the u.s but the but the you know the i mean i i actually i'm really looking forward to their latest game um texas chainsaw massacre because my favorite game is walking dead and texas chainsaw Massacre's got a real Walking Dead vibe to it. I've seen, they've done some great streams of it, and it looks like a lot of fun. I'd be interested to hear everyone's feedback on both Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre, actually, because I'd be interested in either of those games, if I'm honest.
    79:05
    Yeah, so, what else? I mean, that's a really good point. It's insane how long it takes games to get to the UK.
    79:14
    And people are buying Labyrinth and Scooby and other games and not even played them or had a chance to play them which I find you're laying down 10 grand for a game and you haven't played it it's almost nuts basically Okay folks, Neil here editing away that's the end of part one of episode nine part two will be the next episode on your podcast downloader or on YouTube thanks for tuning in and again sorry we made this so long and so complex it wasn't our intent but we had a But a great conversation and we hope you enjoy it. Thanks for tuning in.