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Kaneda & Gengiz Discuss JAWS - AUDIO

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·58m 26s·analyzed·Jan 7, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Kaneda & Gengiz analyze Jaws launch, mechanics, pricing strategy, and competition with Godzilla.

Summary

Kaneda and Gengiz discuss Stern Pinball newly released Jaws game, exploring its mechanics, design decisions, theme appeal, and market positioning relative to Godzilla. They debate the shark mechanism design, pricing concerns, secondary market depreciation patterns, distributor relationships, and Stern's Spike 3 system roadmap. Key tensions emerge around tournament player vs. collector preferences, value retention, and whether Jaws will sustain replayability.

Key Claims

  • Stern sold out of Jaws Limited Edition units within 10 minutes from their direct website, though most distributor stock is depleted

    high confidence · Kaneda states LEs are sold out from most distributors; Gengiz notes Stern sold out 'like 10 minutes' from their direct channel

  • Keith Elwin confirmed that the original shark mechanism design (eating/consuming pinballs) was not fun and disruptive to gameplay, leading to the current motorized fin design

    high confidence · Kaneda references Elwin's podcast statement: 'it just wasn't fun and it was disruptive to making the game enjoyable'

  • Every Stern Limited Edition priced at $13,000 has depreciated to approximately $10,000 within one year (James Bond, Foo Fighters, Venom, Godfather, Toy Story 4)

    high confidence · Gengiz: 'we've seen every single stern le that's been 13k slide down to 10k within a year so that's a three thousand dollar loss in one year'

  • Stern's mechanical engineering in Jaws lacks innovation compared to prior releases; no elements push boundaries or demonstrate novel design

    medium confidence · Kaneda: 'I don't feel like they went out on a limb to make this thing work' and 'Stern's mechanical engineering department isn't really doing anything magical in this game'

  • Stern will not rerun Limited Edition games in the future to protect existing owner value

    high confidence · Kaneda states 'Seth said they're never going to remake le's which was probably the biggest news yesterday' regarding Ghostbusters, Batman LE protection

  • Spike 3 system will feature 4K display, improved light control, faster CPU, and better internet connectivity compared to Spike 2

    medium confidence · Kaneda and Gengiz discussing upcoming Spike 3: 'It's supposed to be 4K. It's a better display, better animations. It will have faster CPU. It will have much, much better light control'

  • Stern's current lighting systems are 'embarrassing' and significantly lag behind Jersey Jack and Spooky implementations

    medium confidence · Kaneda: 'Stern Lighting is in the Stone Age... If you look at JJP Games... Spooky's light shows blow them away... it's embarrassing'

Notable Quotes

  • “Is it a Godzilla killer? I don't think we know yet... from a pure week one, mechanically, it doesn't blow everyone away the way Godzilla did. But you know, it's too early to call it not a Godzilla killer.”

    Kaneda @ early_segment — Frames the core question driving post-launch discussion: whether Jaws matches Godzilla's category-defining impact

  • “When you remove that [the theme], it's still a Keith Elwin game... I hate the theme. I mean, I just can't stand the theme.”

    Gengiz @ early_segment — Reveals designer loyalty can transcend thematic appeal; signals design reputation drives expectations independent of IP

  • “Keith Elwin said in the podcast that stern put out that when they were designing it they originally designed it as a shark that ate the pinballs and it just wasn't fun and it wasn't working.”

    Kaneda @ mid_segment — Confirms design pivot; contextualizes mechanical simplification as necessity rather than cost-cutting

  • “Stern's mechanical engineering department isn't really doing anything magical in this game. Nothing is something we really haven't seen before.”

    Kaneda @ mid_segment — Core criticism: Jaws lacks mechanical novelty despite premium pricing and two-year development cycle

  • “We've seen every single stern le that's been 13k slide down to 10k within a year so that's a three thousand dollar loss in one year.”

    Gengiz @ mid_late_segment — Documents consistent secondary-market depreciation pattern; raises FOMO/value retention concerns for current buyers

  • “Stern Lighting is in the Stone Age. Like, their lighting in their game is embarrassing. On all their games.”

    Kaneda @ mid_late_segment — Harsh technical critique; signals competitive gap with JJP and Spooky on visual presentation

  • “How hard is it? A company called Barrels of Fun is doing laps around you, and you had years to make Galactic Tank Force. It's just weird to me.”

    Kaneda @ late_segment — Meta-commentary on American Pinball's market failure despite competitive advantages; frames Stern's dominance as inevitable

Entities

JawsgameGodzillagameKeith ElwinpersonKanedapersonGengizpersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Stern Jaws Limited Edition sold out in ~10 minutes from direct website; most distributor stock depleted within 5 days of January 2024 launch

    high · Kaneda: 'most of them are sold out'; Gengiz: 'Stern did sell out in like 10 minutes'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Original shark ball-eating mechanism abandoned in favor of motorized fin design due to gameplay disruption and lack of fun factor

    high · Kaneda: 'Keith Elwin said... when they were designing it they originally designed it as a shark that ate the pinballs and it just wasn't fun and it wasn't working'

  • ?

    product_concern: Jaws lacks mechanical innovation compared to recent releases; no novel engineering approaches or boundary-pushing design elements evident

    medium · Kaneda: 'Stern's mechanical engineering department isn't really doing anything magical in this game... nothing is something we really haven't seen before'

  • $

    market_signal: Consistent pattern of $13K Stern LEs depreciating to ~$10K within 12 months (James Bond, Foo Fighters, Venom, Godfather, Toy Story 4). Secondary market flipping already underway at $14.5K asking price.

    high · Gengiz: 'we've seen every single stern le that's been 13k slide down to 10k within a year'; Kaneda notes flippers already asking $14.5K 'best offer'

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern's lighting implementation criticized as 'embarrassing' and 'Stone Age' compared to Jersey Jack and Spooky; significant competitive gap on visual presentation

    medium · Kaneda: 'Stern Lighting is in the Stone Age... If you look at JJP Games... Spooky's light shows blow them away'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.175

0:00
Oh yes, welcome back everybody, Chris and I are back talking about the newest game from Stern. We're five days in 2024 and they released this juggernaut of a game. How are you my friend? Darn it. Jaws, finally, after two years of waiting. I'm excited. I can't wait to talk about this game. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Is it a Godzilla killer?
0:28
I don't think we know yet. We don't know enough yet. I mean, we can talk about the mechanics in it. Like, from a pure week one, mechanically, it doesn't blow everyone away the way Godzilla did. But, you know, it's too early to call it not a Godzilla killer. So we'll see. I think it's going to be the king of the monsters. You know, one in the ocean, one on... I guess they both come from the ocean.
0:53
Team monsters. Absolutely, man. So what do you think about the game? Did you buy one? Did you buy three? What did you do?
1:03
You know me, I'm always in the market to scalp these things. Well, as of today, I can buy a few LEs if I wanted to buy LEs. They're still available from some distributors, but most of them are sold out. I think I have a few on hold from friends of mine, but for the most part, I've been reading that they're gone. So all of the moaning and groaning about, you know, is Stern going to sell out of this game? Of course they were always going to sell out of Jaws. You know, you're wearing the sweatshirt. It's iconic franchise. Yeah. Did you buy one? Did you buy an LE?
1:37
Yeah. Not an LE. Wait, you just said yes. We bought one, but it's the pro because LE is… Well, then it's not an LE. I just asked you if you bought an LE. You said yeah. Okay. We bought one, but that's for location. People can't wait. So we're going to get one of the first built ones and it's going to fly to Denmark and I'm going to show everything. So it's going to be cool, man. Why not? Everybody's waiting for the next Keith Elwin game. It is what it is. Two years. Two years we've been waiting. Okay, so what did you think when you first saw it, right? There's a lot of hype, a lot of anticipation. Did it live up to your anticipation and your enthusiasm or what did you feel when you saw it? Well, first of all, I'm the wrong guy for this because I hate the theme. I mean, I just can't stand the theme. But when you remove that, it's still a Keith Elwin game.

  • Jaws is mechanically comparable to Godzilla week-one, but unclear whether it will match Godzilla's cultural impact as the dominant game of its generation

    medium confidence · Kaneda: 'from a pure week one, mechanically, it doesn't blow everyone away the way Godzilla did. But it's too early to call it not a Godzilla killer'

  • Pokemon pinball theme will have stronger global brand recognition than Jaws, but the buyer demographic may skew younger and less affluent

    medium confidence · Kaneda: 'Pokemon... It's a much bigger theme than Jaws... But you got to factor in the pinball buying demo at these prices. The people who are into Pokemon are too young to afford these expensive machines'

  • Stern's direct-to-consumer sales from their new factory facility threaten distributor profitability and traditional supply chain economics

    medium confidence · Gengiz and Kaneda discuss Stern's new factory capacity enabling bypass of distributors, with Kaneda noting: 'if anyone is going to aim for profit, it's going to be Stern'

  • “Seth said they're never going to remake le's which was probably the biggest news yesterday.”

    Kaneda @ late_segment — Major market signal: Stern commits to limited edition scarcity protection; impacts secondary market psychology

  • “It's the greatest game ever. It's going to knock Godzilla off the top spot. And then you've got the guys that aren't in on it and they want to point out every reason why those guys are idiots for buying the game. The truth is somewhere in the middle.”

    Kaneda @ mid_late_segment — Describes community polarization dynamic; acknowledges tribal bias in collector vs. critic camps

  • “When you look at the pinball content being shared especially over the holidays people the achievement stuff is great. It's giving people new reasons, wakes up machines and gives you another reason to jump on a machine.”

    Kaneda @ late_segment — Praises Insider Connected achievements as retention/engagement tool; presages DLC monetization concerns

    • Pokemon
    game
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Barrels of Funcompany
    Elton Johngame
    Spike 3product
    Spike 2product
    Michael Bernardperson
    George Gomezperson
    Seth Davisperson
    James Bondgame
    Foo Fightersgame
    Venomgame
    Pinsideorganization
    IFPA/WPPRorganization
    Insider Connectedproduct
    Richard Dreyfussperson
  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pinside forum exhibits strong tribal division between LE buyers defending game ('greatest ever, will dethrone Godzilla') and critics highlighting mechanical shortcomings. ~70-page thread indicates sustained engagement.

    high · Kaneda: 'the guys who buy the LEs, they instantly turn into like the defenders of the game... guys that aren't in on it... want to point out every reason why those guys are idiots'

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern commits to never remaking Limited Editions (Ghostbusters LE, Batman LE) to protect existing owner value. Major policy shift signaling secondary market investment confidence.

    high · Kaneda: 'Seth said they're never going to remake le's which was probably the biggest news yesterday'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Spike 3 system in development with planned upgrades: 4K display, improved light control, faster CPU, better internet connectivity. Debate ongoing about meaningfulness of improvements vs. Spike 1-to-2 transition.

    medium · Gengiz: 'It's supposed to be 4K. It's a better display, better animations. It will have faster CPU. It will have much, much better light control'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Stern's new factory capacity and direct-to-consumer sales capability threaten traditional distributor profit margins. Distributors potentially facing obsolescence if Stern continues bypassing supply chain.

    medium · Gengiz: 'If you were a distro in the U.S. and you knew that Stern could just sell out from their own back door, how would you feel? I think they should all be nervous'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Insider Connected achievements viewed as engagement driver, but hosts express concern Stern may introduce paid DLC seasons/content (e.g., 'another season of Batman for $500 bucks'), setting precedent for micro-transactions

    medium · Kaneda: 'If that starts... If they're like, look, you want another season of Batman? It's another 500 bucks. like that's the next thing'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Stern's portfolio depth and release cadence insulate company from single-game failures. American Pinball's decade-long struggle contrasted with Barrels of Fun's emerging competitiveness.

    medium · Kaneda: 'Stern's portfolio right now is so robust with amazing games they're insulated for the next five years'; 'Barrels of Fun is doing laps around [American Pinball]'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Pokemon pinball title will have stronger global IP recognition than Jaws, but target buyer demographic may skew younger and less affluent, potentially limiting LE uptake at premium pricing tiers

    medium · Kaneda: 'Pokemon... It's a much bigger theme than Jaws... The people who are into Pokemon are too young to afford these expensive machines. That's my take on it'

    • 2:35
    The early video came out, what, three days ago or something like that? Yeah, at least. Yeah, and the official video came out yesterday. Or is it today for you? I don't know. Yesterday for me. Yeah. It's been a weird shark week. I think the community spoiled Stern's plans. But we did see, I think, a lot more yesterday with the Gomez video, the Elwin video. Now, did you buy this sweatshirt just for this, or did you own this before? I actually bought this sweatshirt because I wanted to make a Joel video for a year ago or something. That's why I bought it. You told us that this game was on the way for over a year ago, man. Well, everybody knew for two years. So you're not the biggest fan. So you see the game though, Cengiz. What were your initial opinions when you saw it? Well, we saw the Ili trailer and removing the theme, when I saw the shots and layout of this game, I was just hooked. I think it looks great.
    3:38
    What about the shots? I mean, look, I'm trying to get a sense of why people get either excited or disappointed. I'm trying to be pretty middle of the road on this game. what shots did you see where you were like oh my god that shot two shots that i just love at the left side it has got this ramp with a mini 180 flip so the ball comes up and down to a left flipper and from there you make the right orbit shot that goes up again and comes down to your right flipper so you can from your right flipper shoot the turbo to the left and you can make that loopable shot constantly when i when i found out about that on the video i was hooked that shot when you do it when it goes in and makes the bigger 180 shot and goes up to the upper play field and so much fun up there i was hooked the job that comes out um let's talk about it let's talk about that there's a lot of school there's a lot of debate on pin side right now about the shark itself so keith owen saying yeah so keith owen said in the podcast that stern put out that when they were designing it they originally designed it as a shark that ate the pinballs and it just wasn't fun and it wasn't working and so you know look i mean at some level you gotta kind of trust keith owen you know a man who knows what he's doing and if you think about the Jurassic Park T-Rex. I mean, that makes more sense. The T-Rex coming through the forest, eating the ball, throwing it around Jurassic Park. That's what the T-Rex does. And I think it probably, you know, we think about the shark coming up from underneath the play field, making it work. I don't know. I don't know. But it's hard for me to like fully just say, yeah, that's it. Like I trust Keith because I also when I look at this game, I do feel like Stern's mechanical engineering department isn't really doing anything magical in this game. Nothing is something we really haven't seen before, and nothing makes me feel like they went out on a limb to make this thing work. When you look at the game, I look at it like this. You're firing harpoons at a shark in the movie. There's more of a harpoon shot in ACDC. and Walking Dead has a harpoon shot, right? A crossbow shot. So, I mean, they could have put something a little bit more dramatic when it comes to that moment of trying to, you know, hit the shark. And that's the thing. There's a lot of apologists, you know, and shots are the new toys. It's the new thing in pinball. So, look, as much as I think the layout is really cool, I think the game, every day I wake up, Genghis, I kind of get more excited about the game. You know, it's hard to hold on to anger. Like nobody's making us buy this thing. It's not a cancer treatment. It's just a pinball machine. But that being said, I still think there could have been a little bit more of a dramatic way in which you battle the shark. What do you think? I mean, can you imagine having that harpoon just on walking dead? And when that shark fin goes up and the harpoon turns and you need to time and hit, that's a moment. Stuff like that wouldn't be that expensive. Well, and that's the thing. It's like the really good players, the tournament players, they don't like those toys. They don't want those things in pinball. They just want flow. And that's been – Do you think pinball is going at a tournament player's way? Oh, I mean Stern has absolutely made these things with more input from tournament players when it comes to the complexity of the codes and stacking, multipliers. Like, come on. Like, you see the dudes who buy these LEs. They're just like they play it 100 times in five years and they just want wow moments. And I think there's just always that balance of you want a game that shoots well. But I think you also can do both. Like you can create a moment, a physical moment in the game that is memorable. And I just think, you know, pinball tournament players don't like chaos. So they don't like a T-Rex throwing the ball randomly. They don't like magnets taking control of the ball. You know, they turn off stuff like that or they don't want it. So, you know, and that's why make the pro machine for, you know, for those guys. But in the LE Premium, I think there should be toys that are like, wow, like they really engineered something special. So I didn't know about Sterling having a podcast. I will go in and find and listen to it. So what was his real – what did he say about the shark mouth not working? I mean, why not? It just wasn't fun and it was disruptive to making the game enjoyable. So I wasn't there. I wasn't involved in the manufacturing or the engineering of the game. But I could see what he's saying, right? Imagine, let's just say for example's sake, that the shark did come up and you shot the pinballs into the shark's mouth. I could see how that would maybe slow down the gameplay significantly. Is it a ball lock? Is it throwing the ball back out the way the T-Rex does? Yeah, I don't know. And then how much real estate would it take up in the game to create that kind of mechanism and make it work right? So I don't know. I mean, I just – I tend to believe that they made the right decision. But look, everybody – we also all know this. Stern is also going to most likely make the more cost-effective decision when it comes to their games. I mean, let's face it. Looking down at this game, Cengiz, putting it next to Elton John and games with real sculpts. I mean, put it next to Labyrinth. Look at the world of Labyrinth and how well it's sculpted. I'm not talking about design and all that, but just the physical world of Jaws in this game looks pretty damn cheap. I mean, what do you think? I was like, after Godzilla, I heard that George Gomez gave Keith Hillman green lights. to just go all the way in. And you remember the market two years back, how people just, we couldn't get enough machines. I mean, we could just, this game got designed at a buy, buy, buy status of the pinball world. Right. So I really thought, if you look at the middle of the play field, it has got five sharks you have to collect. And I think we haven't seen nothing about the code, but I think you need to hit the shark a lot of times, just like in Attack from Mars. So as a finishing shot, you could have the shark as a bash chart, bam, bam, bam. And as a finishing shot, because you can see it's not a coil that says, bam, and the shark is out. No, it moves out. So it's a turning motor. And as a finishing shot, it could open its mouth and you can just bash it in there. Small details that could be really, really cool, man. Yeah. I mean, also in the movie, the iconic shot is the end shot where the shark has the oxygen tank, the scuba tank in its mouth and, you know, smile, you son of a and then he shoots it. Right. So that's, you know, I get like I look, I get it. And I think right now it's fun. It's just fun reading all the back and forth and all the cheerleading and the complaining happening simultaneously on Pinside. It's some of the greatest pinball content happening on the planet right now. I highly recommend. I think it's like 70 pages of these men fighting it out. And here's what happens, Cengiz, is the guys who buy the LEs, they instantly turn into like the defenders of the game, right? It's the greatest game ever. It's going to knock Godzilla off the top spot. and then you've got the guys that aren't in on it and they want to point out every reason why those guys are idiots for buying the game. The truth is somewhere in the middle and I do think this is a really good effort from Keith Elwin. I think the team behind him, the software team, are the best in the industry. I mean, this game is going to be coded right. It's going to have the assets. I think it's going to be a very, very amazing pinball experience. Whether it's worth the money or not, That is just a subjective argument to some people out there, Cengiz. They bought this LE and $13,000 to some of those men is like you and I spending $130,000. That money means nothing to them. They're on the list for every single LE. And so you need 1,000 of those people to just sell out. And look, I think it's going to do just fine. I don't think it's going to be as popular as Godzilla, but I think it's going to be right up there. I think it's going to be in the top 10 games for sure. I think Elwynn is just Elwynn. And, you know, when you look at the rest of the industry, what has anybody done in the last, like, couple years, you know, that we're still talking about? Nothing. so you know but i as i said in my last show i do think when i saw this game i wasn't like oh my gosh everyone's gonna be fighting to dethrone this game this year i do think this isn't elwynn's greatest effort and i do think that there's going to be an opportunity from for the other manufacturers to show us what you got like this is the best stern's got right this is their best designer it's their best theme they're going to come out with this year probably it's their best design We don't know that. Maybe Pokemon. Maybe – I don't know. Pokemon. I don't know. Like we'll see. I still am not sure that Pokemon has the buyer base. I think the people who are into Pokemon are too young to afford these expensive machines. That's my take on it. What do you think? I mean are you excited for Pokemon? I think Pokemon is going to sell like crazy. We're going to get Pokemon to all our locations.
    13:48
    Look at the theme. Jaws or Pokemon? Come on. But again, you got to factor in the pinball buying demo at these prices. So Pokemon, we just missed it. Like guys our age, like we didn't grow up with Pokemon like that became more children of the 90s, not children of the 80s. Right. So it's for people just a few years younger than you and I. But, you know, look, Pokemon, no argument for me on whether or not it's a big theme. It's a much bigger theme than Jaws. Like globally as a property, it's ginormous. It's right up there with, it's like Pokemon. On a location every kid will play it Every kid I also into retro computing retro consoles gaming and Pokemon I mean the money they sell for a little Pokemon card can cost It so stupid And Pokemon is going to be great for Insider Connected and achievements because the entire thing is about catching them all and adding more Pokemons that you can unlock through achievements is probably going to be the greatest usage of Stern Insider Connected ever. and then imagine if they partner with pokemon go the game and you actually have to be in front of the pinball machine to unlock stuff within that game they have to yeah they absolutely have to and send messages go to this city at that location you can collect bulbasaur or whatever all those names they have to do that also one thing i want to talk to you about you and i we know some stuff about the upcoming Spike 3 system.
    15:26
    When we add everything together, I remember when Spike 2 came, Spike 1 instantly got outdated. With the screen, with everything, it just got old and outdated. Same thing is going to happen when Spike 3 comes. When all of these Spike 2 games are still coming out, I don't want to have them on the I don't think they're going to be outdated. I'll tell you why. Because what's the big difference? It's supposed to be 4K.
    15:58
    It's a better display, better animations. It will have faster CPU. It will have much, much better light control. The light control in this game is from those home pin game things. Well, stern lighting is horrendous. Can we just talk about that for a minute? It will have better internet. Yeah, okay. Stern Lighting is in the Stone Age. Like, their lighting in their game is embarrassing. On all their games. Like, it's embarrassing. If you look at JJP Games, and all the way back to Guns N' Roses, it's a... The light show is just... Spooky's light shows blow them away. Like, they're just embarrassing. Like, come on, Stern. You're now charging this much money. Their games still look like... That's why when you say, like, Spike 1, 2, and 3, the honest truth is I don't see a big leap forward happening anywhere you know since they went to LCD I don't see like improved the lighting I don't see and again when the screen's this small Genghis you're not really gonna get much better images like you don't need 4k when you're only dealing with a tiny screen you know that's when you have a bigger screen they can put screens on the play they're not gonna do it they're not gonna do a bigger screen they're not gonna do any of The greens are not on the topper. Why not? I think it will help them maybe more with computing and Bluetooth and stuff like that. But do you really think that Stern is going to go to Spike 3 and all of a sudden we're going to start to see a lot more happening on the games like lighting-wise and mechanically? Really? Okay. I don't know mechanically. But electronically and control, they are limited. When they put too much stuff on their system, their note boards are not enough. Just like, what game was it when they used the same coil for the pop bumper because of James Bond? Do you remember James Bond? Yeah, it was all in one coil. One coil to fire all the pop bumpers at once. Yeah, it was something like that. I mean, when Spike 3 will come out. Because they're inside a connector. The internet now, it's not included in the board. They have an external cable that's put on there. All their DLC, you and I can play against each other, you in US, me in Denmark. All that stuff is going to be amazing. Wow, 2024. 2024 and we're spending $7,000 to $13,000 on games that aren't even internet connected. and I can go spend $500 and play $60 video games that connect you for the last 15 years. So, no, it's just – look, it's about time this entire industry gets connected. It's stupid. Like Jersey Jack took away its score bit. They haven't replaced that. What's wrong with that, man? I don't know. Why do you remove it if you have nothing to replace it with? Let's go back to JAWS because you and I, we can talk about this for days. So Jaws Pro I made fun of. Like, come on, that shark in the shark cage floating above the playfield. Come on. Like, doesn't that look silly? And it's also static. It doesn't hide. It's always there. Always there. Because on the Ellie, it comes up and gives you this moment, you know. But the other one is just, I don't know. I love Ellie's prose, but I feel like, now I have seen some people writing on Facebook that the pros the way it should go i just and usually i love the pro games but on this one i feel like it's just chris it's just too empty i mean right yeah they also took away the drop targets which are pissing everybody off so there's just a static bank of targets on the left side instead of those three drops yeah i didn't see that yeah so that's just gonna be a nice constant brick um yeah look i mean at how much is the pro now the pros around 7 000 yeah you you people in the u.s you make like hundred dollars an hour so you're so rich man 7 000 is nothing for you guys but it's a lot of money for us i remember the days when stern le's were 6 500 bucks so it's interesting and those days were really really cool man for $7,000 to super nice. Was it like Metallica LE around $6,500? Same with ACDC. That's the thing. We can turn off what we know about what we used to get for our money. These games are very expensive. The expectations are very high. Also, the conversation around price. It is fatiguing. Trust me. I think the le guys are all i don't know do you think this le is actually going to go up in value i saw on pin side someone's already trying to flip one for 14.5 or best offer already already already so but what do you think right we've seen every single stern le that's been 13k slide down to 10k within a year so that's a three thousand dollar loss in one year james bond did it foo fighters did it i mean venom nobody even bought venom le but the few guys who did they lost their shirt on it we saw huge losses with those three games huge losses with godfather huge losses with toy story 4 i mean do you think the anyone's gonna listen to the market and be like you can't consistently sell at well over ten thousand dollars if you want to you know find customers well chris usually on a question like this i would answer no this is keith helvin but but but let's just talk about what happened we got james bunt that came out not as the best pin in the world you know about the code and all that right and it lost a lot of money okay then we got foo fighters i mean i love that game and people love that game and that game lost it was what for 9 000 for an le yeah it's not like that happens i know this is keith elwin i know i I know, I know. But I just don't think that anyone will buy this game on the second market for $15,000, $16,000. I don't think so.
    22:26
    Stern did sell out in like 10 minutes. But how many games do they sell from there? No, they always – But how many games? They sell like 10 games on their website. Whenever people look at that – look, they're all – every Stern elite. I don't know why – Can I ask you a question? Yeah, go on. Can I ask you a question?
    22:45
    Yes. If Stern sells directly out from their back door. Yeah. I mean. They make more of each of those games than they do through any distributor sale, for sure. If you were a distro in the U.S. and you knew that Stern could just sell out from their own back door, how would you feel?
    23:06
    I think they should all be nervous. I mean, you've said this. Looking at that new factory and looking at Stern's ability to stockpile games and they've got a loading dock that looks like an airport hangar.
    23:20
    And you're Seth Davis and you're like, wait a minute. We're passing on $2,000 to $3,000 in potential profit on each game because a truck comes to us, takes it down the block to a distributor warehouse, and then the truck takes it to the customer. Like what exactly, why did we need to lose any money in that transaction? And also, I don't know if they still do this, but don't some distros just drop ship from Stern? They just give Stern the address to where to send the game? I mean, that happened back in the day. They used to do that. Yeah. I know what, here's what I heard some people do. I heard some distros have warehouses right near Stern. So the product legitimately just goes right from Stern to a nearby location, and then it gets picked up and sent to the customer. So it's not like it's going from Stern to Florida, you know, back to New York. It's – who knows? I mean, it's ultimately – yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't understand, like, the whole way this model works. It feels like it's a model that is decades old. and if anyone is going to aim for profit, it's going to be Stern. But also Stern does not want to deal with the customer. So that's the reason why I think they're okay letting the distributors deal with all the customer issues because they don't want to deal with it. Chris, you're talking about deal with the customer. Okay, let me see. We just sold, okay, this is a J.J.P. game, but we just sold Elton John. Okay, cool. If that customer in a month writes to me or writes to my brother and says, my RAM switch is off, do you know what we do as a distro? We just forward that to J.J.P. And they ship the part directly to the customer. Right. I mean, I don't, again. What do you mean by that? I mean, what do you mean? I mean, when I bought my Star Wars, I had a lot of trouble with my Star Wars LE, and I got directly connected to Stern.
    25:38
    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. It was not the distro thing. It was me and Stern, and they sent me stuff and gave me the best support in the world, but nothing was distro. The thing is this, though, Cengiz, is like if they cut out the distros, they're not going to lower the price. so I think people are like well I'd rather have a distro who I'm buddies with and I don't know I'm thinking as a distro I'm here in Europe we they need to have distros but in the U.S. if I was a distro there I would be nervous yeah you've got it look any middleman job like you're just the middle guy that that always is is um you know you're always at fear of being eliminated from the scenario because you're just the middle guy. Look at what's happening in the car world. People would just love to order cars directly from the manufacturer instead of paying the dealer markup prices because when a hot car comes out, the dealers are marking up the cars, right? The money's going just to the dealership, not to the manufacturer. The only reason we need car dealerships though, right, is because cars need service. They need oil changes. They need parts replace in pinball you're not going to take in your pinball machine every thousand plays for like some sort of servicing so i you know i don't know but like i don't this is a um this is a can of worms i and a pandora's box conversation that you know it's it's it's i don't know i'm just a podcaster i don't really have any skin in the game on that side of the industry i would just be nervous going back to jaws one of the things that i really love about godzilla is the whole audio package really cool how do you think they will do it with jaws because jaws is very dark and you know yeah yeah we haven't seen the you know uh jack danger gameplay but let's talk about the audio part yeah yeah so they they've got the john williams score from the movie which is iconic but To your point, it is not as high energy as the Godzilla music, which really kind of gets you going. Jaws is much slower and purposely meant to be. Yeah, but obviously they're going to need a lot more music throughout the game and throughout the different modes. And we haven't heard any of it. So I tend to think they are going to put in a good soundtrack to make the game exciting. Otherwise, that's my other fear of the game. I was saying on my show yesterday, I'm just wondering what the replay value is going to be. Like how exciting will it be to keep catching sharks? You know, like is it going to feel repetitive? Is it going to feel like satisfying after you play the game for four months? Are you going to be over it? I don't know. You know, what's the variety of gameplay going to be like? Because I think what makes games special, and I was talking to people who own like Elvira, haven't played Elvira too much. But they love the way the different modes have like different music and shout plays and, you know, the gargoyles are popping up. Like there's a lot of different personality throughout the game. And that's the thing about Jaws I'm curious about. Will this game have the personality that Godzilla has, that Elvira has, that Batman has? Because when you think about the games that are kind of keepers for people, it's usually a game with a lot of personality, a lot of variety, and a lot of different modes and moments you can wait to get to Does Jaws have that We just don know yet I not that nervous about the code I think the code going to be awesome Because Keith Elwin he all over the code also He doesn't just design a game. He did it with James Bond 60. He didn't care about the code, as he said. But this replayability. Or the price.
    29:32
    That's, I don't think. It's the biggest single loss in the history of pinball, if you bought one from Stern on day one. Biggest single loss ever. You lost $12,000 if you bought it from Stern directly. How much did that Elvira, was it called 40th? Wasn't that like 20,000 also or was it 25? I don't remember. Yeah, 25 is what dealers were selling it for. It was one of those call for prices where dealers bought them for 15 and they all charged 25 at the beginning.
    30:02
    So, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Playability. replayability so i watched this six minute clip and i can see you have that clip in your background that's my youtube video running there oh it was running there it's something else now on on there on stern six minute clip keith elwyn says actually that use your insider connected and go in and collect shark teeth or something having an option like that will make people come back just like with venom so it's a it's a clever gimmick so just that part will give more replayability people will use their inside they're really doing some stuff to get that inside i will say this when you look at the pinball content being shared especially over the holidays people the achievement stuff is great. It's giving people new reasons, wakes up machines and gives you another reason to jump on a machine and do these micro tasks to earn these achievements. Super smart.
    31:13
    It's all good right now until Stern tries to charge us for more. If that starts... If they're like, look, you want another season of Batman? It's another 500 bucks. like that's the next thing and i don't know you know like three spike three just having a game like stranger things oh do you want season five pay 60 bucks more and it will be unlocked and all collectors 60 and i mean all of them bro they're not yeah all the collectors will buy it yeah only poor people will cry about it but all the collectors will buy it i mean Well, they know their target audience has very little self-control and a lot of money. We love pinball. This is the easiest industry to market to. If I was marketing to this industry, you don't even have to do much. You don't really have to do much. Just get a theme they want, make a game that's got good flow, decent amount of mechs in it, and you're making money. That's why watching companies like American Pinball not be able to figure this out after a decade is comical. It's comical. How hard is it? A company called Barrels of Fun is doing laps around you, and you had years to make Galactic Tank Force. It's just weird to me. And you're a franchise art. That helps. But it's just art's not going to save a Tank Force game. You can't. It's so obvious what people want in this hobby. And Stern knows it, and Stern does it time and time again. And look, every once in a while, Stern has a theme that's not that popular, like Venom.
    32:58
    They'll make games that maybe are lukewarm responses, but then they can easily just, all right, in three months, they're going to have another game, or four months, another game. And then they can rerun a hit game that they used. Their portfolio right now is so robust with amazing games. they're insulated for the next five years because even if they don't have hit after hit they can do a hit and then a classic hit and i know that seth said they're never going to remake le's which was probably the biggest news yesterday was all right finally everyone who owns a ghostbusters le a batman le or sle everyone who owns like an older stern le can now sleep at night knowing they're not going to rerun and make more like another 500 run of ghostbusters but what he did not say is that he didn't clarify whether an anniversary edition with new art right with new art and new translate like like he didn't clarify if an anniversary edition you know also won't be done because that's what i would still be nervous about okay so it was from stern it was like no more illies but we'll think about jurassic park for example right so jurassic park they didn't rerun the original le no they ran a new anniversary edition a better version yeah and which made everybody lose everybody lost in that scenario so i i don't know if seth was saying we're never doing that again or you know we're not going to remake older le's like exactly the way they were before. So I mean, they should just come up with a clear statement then. I mean, out to the public and saying, but why? Why shouldn't Stern be allowed to make anniversary additions? Why not?
    34:51
    It's your company. You own Stern. Why not? Well, you know, I'll tell you why. Because even though you can do something as a company, you got to really ask, should we do this? Because if the people that have kept you in business all these years and the collectors that are buying everything you sell, you don't want to burn them, right? They're your bread and butter. Like you want to make sure your base is happy with you and you don't need to do it. That's the thing. It's like Stern doesn't need it. Like they could do it. But Chris, for a year ago, the scenario was different when we could get at least for $10,000, okay? and stern they built these games they they built all those godzillas for 10 000 10 500 shipped to the people and people sold them through 13 it doesn't matter it doesn't matter like you want yes it does but you want to know it doesn't it doesn't you want to see your product you want to see your product selling for more on the second-hand market it's a good sign you know look if chevrolet sees that people are flipping z06 corvettes for a hundred thousand over sticker which they are, right? The car is $150,000. You could buy it from a dealership. Now, the dealer might want to market up $100,000 and try to gouge people, which they're doing. But if you're Chevrolet, right? You're the OEM. You're the manufacturer. They're not going to look at that and then next year charge $200,000 or $250,000 for the car. They're selling much more cars than pinball machines. We're talking about 1,000 LEs. That's it. He's just sitting there. We designed it. Yeah, but they ruined the LE market. They do everything.
    36:40
    Yeah, but Cengiz, they've ruined their LE market now. It's ruined. Jaws is just a blip in it, but what happens when Dungeons & Dragons comes out and you want 13 for it? Or like John Wick. People are not going to spend $13,000. John Wick is an awesome theme! With Stern Lighting, it's not going to look great. It's not. Maybe it will be Spike 3 with an amazing light show. Look what happened to James Bond. Imagine if you bought James Bond LE, right? If you bought Foo Fighters, James Bond, and Venom LE, you bought those three games. You lost. Are you ready for it? You lost over $10,000 in a year and a half buying what should have been games that used to hold value, right? You can't name a Stern LE between the years of 2014 and 2019. You can't name one Stern LE that lost $3,000 in value. Not one. Not even your WWE that you're in love with. There's not one. And so now, as these collectors are waking up from the COVID frenzy, holy crap, I just lost $10,000 on three games. And if I had just waited, just not years, just waited like eight months, I could have got every single game I bought for $3,000 less. And look, Jaws is going to be interesting because as we look at this game, not today, but let's look at this game six months from now with 1,000 LEs in the world. Do you really think they're going to be going for $1,450? No, come on. No.
    38:18
    Absolutely not. The game looks cool. I didn't say it didn't look cool, but is it $13,000 in that package?
    38:26
    I don't know. Some people in the industry, they are so rich, they don't care about losing those $10,000. I get that. But those people, nothing matters. But there's not a thousand of those people either. No. And the thing is, those games that you're saying there, James Bond, that's not a bad game. James Bond is not a bad game. no well it had two fighters is not a bad game venom you mentioned venom le is not a bad game the pro i i filmed the pro it was there's very few bad games in pinball let's be honest right like thunder words is bad spinal tap is bad star wars star wars is yeah brutal compared to you know there's very few games though that i think people have a visceral like reaction to But, you know, that being said, we also just can't always make the excuse that, you know, this is what it is and it's now going to be this forever, regardless of what's in the game. You know, the whole value discussion is, I don't know, it's a healthy discussion to have. I kind of find it weird when people try to say, like, if a game is fun, it could be worth anything. You know what the number one selling sports car was last year? Had the biggest increase in sales. in a world in which there's all these expenses, the Mazda Miata. It's the most fun you can have in it. You and your Mazda. Have you ever owned a Mazda? We own two Mazda Miatas. And when we had, my family, my dad likes cars. So there were periods we had Dodge Viper, M3, Z06 Corvette. We had Porsche Boxers, S2000 Hondas, like Subaru STIs. Nice stuff, right? Yeah. The Mazda Miata was the most fun I've ever had in a car. And of all the cars we've owned. And the lightweight, it was like Mario Kart on the street. You could pull the T-brake and slide down the block. It was so much fun. And it just goes to show you. That's one thing, too, with pinball.
    40:30
    The guys who buy the pros, as much as pros are for hoes, the guys who buy the pros are probably having the most fun. Have you seen the back glass? The pro and Ellie looks like the same. I don't like that. You know, Stern screwed over the premium guys in this one because obviously you're going to want the iconic movie poster. I don't know why. No, I think the premium back glass is awesome. Not the pro, really. It looks stupid. There's a guy with like – it's like Quint with the machete. It looks stupid. Like that's not Jaws. Have you seen Frenchies, Christopher Frenchies? Yeah, he's got two left. Did you make a bid?
    41:08
    No, but it looks awesome, man. This actually kind of fits with where they went with the art because if you look at the art – What do you mean by make a bid? He's selling his last two. His last two. You know this. His last two he'll ever make, you can bid the amount you want to spend on it, and the highest bid takes it. So I put out a – What's the bid up on now? No, he won't say. It's all private. It's like you have to email him. Oh, it's closed bidding. It's closed. So I bid $13,000 for it. Let's see if he accepts my bid. Oh, he's back. Did you know that? Christopher Franchi is back. He's going to interview you and everybody. Have you heard that? He should. Look, if he wants to get the most listens ever, he should interview me. I would check that out. Instead of always slamming me, Franchi, I knew you were going to listen to this. How about you have Canada on? Do you have the guts, Franchi, to have a nice fireside? I think it's like an evening, a dinner. I don't know, some dinner conversation. There's like a candelabra. If you do it with Canadian Franchi, I guarantee you, you'll get the most listens ever. All right. But no, look, he does great interviews. I've always said it. I don't know why he keeps turning the show off. You don't have to rage quit. Now that the Twippies are gone, we all know there's no more competing. It's just everyone just do your content, have your fun. and you don't have to exit. You can just take a pause and take a break. What did he say when he rage-quitted? It was something with you, right? No, I don't think so. I think, you know, the Twippies brought out the best and the worst in the pinball. But you're saying the Twippies are done and he can just come back, but the People's Choice Awards is not done. We just started. We just started, yeah. When are the Twippy results getting published? Do you know?
    43:11
    I don't know. I mean, the votes. Summer or April or something. I think voting is still open for like 10 more days. So can't wait to see how many thousands of people contributed to the award show nobody cares about. I actually voted on 2P's and I filled my voting and I got totally confused with everything that was included in one. It was, yeah, check out my video. I don't know. The dropdowns became like 200 content creators and 200 websites It was just ugh It was confusing for me I don listen to that much podcast and I love watching videos but podcast is not my thing.
    43:59
    To round everything up, we started the video with your ellies, two, three, four, five ellies, whatever.
    44:07
    Are you going to have one for yourself? Are you going to flip them? What are your thoughts? How long can you hold your LE spots? I don't know. I have to make a decision today. My distributor friends are nice. I also don't want to keep them from a sale. That's always how I roll. They're not going to have a problem selling it. They know that.
    44:35
    I'm most likely leaning on just letting it go. I don't want to be a scalper anymore. It's just the negative vibes. Let someone have it. It's going to be a fun game. It's not a theme for me. If I was a Jaws aficionado, here's the thing. My money is going towards Back to the Future.
    44:56
    And I also just want to say this. There is this really wrong rumor spreading through Pinside that Back to the Future does not have the assets and that Stern passed on it because of that. That is absolutely incorrect. Joe Kamnikowski. I heard that on a podcast show. Yeah, it was on Flippin' Out. They said it. It's not true. It's inaccurate. And it's not true. So if you are excited about Back to the Future, I'm here to tell you, you should remain excited. It's going to have the assets. We're also going to get a lot of, I think, cool stuff this year, Cengiz. I think Matrix, I think Mark Sadan's first game at Jersey Jack is going to be really cool I think I'm looking forward to that and he's getting help from Eric Minier he's getting help support from Eric support from Steve Ritchie and I think while he was designing Pat Lawler was there also so if it has got all the magic and help and support from all those guys Pat Lawler is not helping anybody He wasn't a help. Here's the thing. This next game from Jersey Jack, I really do feel like this is it. Like this is it. Like you're either going to show us what you got. If it's Matrix, you got to do it right. It's got to have the assets from the movies, from the first movie people want. If Jersey Jack has four strikes in a row, I mean, I get it. Like you're a billionaire. Your billionaire son is running the company. But it's kind of embarrassing. You've got all the money in the world and you can't put it together. And this is it. Elton John is cool. Nobody's buying it. Everybody knows that. They're already making the CEs. I've never seen Jersey Jack. They're not getting any orders for the platinum. And they're going to have to quickly move to the next game because no one's ordering this Elton John game in two months. Nobody.
    46:49
    It's going to come and go. Is it out in the secondary market in the US? They're just rolling out. I haven't really seen any for sale yet. but I know that CE buyers are here. We've got them here in Denmark. I'm so excited. Going to unbox it next week. I just, I really want, you know, this is what makes me a little bit sad is looking at Jaws, seeing where we're at in pinball right now, I'm just really sad that Jersey Jack is not in the race anymore. They're not even close to being the second most exciting games in pinball right now. They're not even close. The sales aren't there. The games haven't been there. To be honest, okay, to be honest, no bashing, no nothing. J.J.P. is not making bad games.
    47:34
    I mean, look at Elton John. Art, beautiful. Light show you're talking about, beautiful. And I listened to the audio, beautiful audio. Everything is awesome. The thing is with J.J.P. That's the thing. Why isn't it selling? The theme. Cool, cool. Jack made themes he wanted. Elton John Godfather Toy Story 4 those are three very questionable themes not Toy Story 1 but that's another question but when you saw what happened when they got Guns N' Roses it's like 6,000 of them so when they get a great theme they will sell but whose fault is that? that's my thing how can you go three B themes in a row. You know, like how do you misread your own market? I mean, look, and here's the sad truth, Genghis, and I don't mean to be strident here. If you remove the Abbess money, if you remove AIMTROM's money from, AIMTROM from Mukesh's money from American Pinball, if you remove both of that funding, if these companies- Running Black Stern, you mean? Like a normal business where you have to survive on your own sales, right? There's no outside annuity. These companies are out of business. American Pinball was dumb. But both companies are out of business. They're out of business. And so what's sad is they have all that financial backing. Everyone there is getting a good paycheck, and they still can't make great games. They're just not doing it. And Stern Pinball, there's more. I think you need that pressure. We've got to make these games sell because we've got this big factory. We've got all these people. We've got investors. We have to deliver. I don't get that sense of urgency from Jersey Jack. I don't get it from American Pinball. I get it from Spooky. Spooky's got to feed the families of all those people working there, and they know that. Spooky needs to sell a lot of Scooby-Doos to produce the other games. I mean, it is what it is, and that's healthy in a company. And the thing I like about Spooky, for all the arrows they take, I mean, look, they're kind of self-aware. we're not going to sell 2000 chainsaws or Looney Tunes. So let's make 888 of each. You know, the game design looks much better than their previous designs. And I think, you know, they're going to sell those games, whether they sell all of them, but then they've got two more games in development and, you know, they're going to keep chucking, chucking, chugging along. And, you know, but Spooky Pinball, they're not taking money from people. You know, they're not, they're not like taking money from an investor. They built this company from the ground up and they've slowly built to a point now where they're probably selling more games a year than jersey jack like that's embarrassing to jjp it's and i love jack i love jj the thing about jjp and i always say this the reason why i get so deflated is at after 10 years of being in pinball jersey jack should be hitting with with its best games ever and if you put elton john next to wizard of just throw the mic over your shoulder. I'm out of here. Luke Skywalker, lightsaber over the shoulder. Like, we're done with this. How is this an advancement over this? It's not. You know, and like, I get it. But this year, 2024.
    51:03
    This is it. Like, Matrix better be loaded. But what if it's not? The thing is, if it's not, if it's another empty game with like, non-assets aren't set up, what's happening? It's a 90s theme. It has great music. I could design that game and sell. The Matrix game that was made in the Netherlands when they re-skinned Johnny Mnemonic is amazing, right? It's got mechs. It's got the phone booth. It's got the sentinels. It's so awesomely done, right?
    51:39
    Jersey Jack better bring it. I mean I want to see real mechs. I want to see the first movie. I want to see bullet time action with magnets where the balls you like, come on guys. This is, this is not going to, you're not going to win with 3,800 RGB LEDs. Like look, Elton John could light up a city block. It could, you could put that damn game and it could light up a city block. Like, and it, it sounds amazing. It looks amazing. It lights up the room and you just don't want to buy it. And, and that's because you don't want to lose four grand, three grand. in like six months. Nobody wants to lose money and it's not fun enough to justify the price. That's the thing. No. Chris, number one pinball podcaster in the world.
    52:28
    Cheers. Chris, we did this because we wanted to talk about Jaws. Yeah. Well, we talked about a little bit more. We gave people more for the money. I mean, making stuff like this as friends, we just jump over and have a friendly conversation instead of talking about Jaws. We're all over the place. Put it all up. Look, anyone who watches this, it's free. They didn't pay for this. So if they don't like it, they don't get a refund because it didn't cost them anything other than their time. No, they're going to love this stuff, James. People love this stuff. They love... There's only so much we can talk about with Jaws. We haven't seen any of the code, man. It's just... I'm really looking forward to the Jack Danger video. Jack is there. Keith Elwin is there. Josh Gomez is there. it's gonna be there it's gonna be awesome joel did this great video where he outlined all the shots in the game you know the flipping out stream and then he took it down because i think stern went after him because he showed the the images from the video maybe he's put it back up by now but here's my thing what what what did what no they showed they did yeah no i think they did a great youtube where they showed all the different shot geometry and jaws um and they went off of like the the leaked trailer um anyway look jaws pinball what's your final word on it jeng is is it going to be the number one game of all time where do you see it in the top 10 is this keith elwyn's masterpiece did it live up to your expectations give us your final thoughts in a minute and all it's gonna be just in between Godzilla here Foo Fighters here Jaws is going to be here Absolutely That's how I feel It's not going to be better than Godzilla is so special But it's just under Godzilla I think it's going to sell well What do you think? It's going to sell great I kind of agree I don't think it's going to dethrone Godzilla I don't think the license is as energetic and as fun as Godzilla so I don't think the personality is going to be there it's just like three old campy I think it's fine, I think mechanically the game leaves a lot to be desired I was looking for more from a mechanical standpoint, but again I think it's going to be above Jurassic Park, I think it's going to be below Godzilla and Elwin's fanbase, the Pinside 100 is kind of irrelevant because they'll vote it up. It'll open at number one. This is what will happen. Remember, what game went to number one recently? Everyone was like, what? How did that get there? I think it was Godfather was there for like a day. Godfather was number one. An alien also. It was amazing. Everyone caught wind of it and then they shoved it back down into the 20s. It was like, I doubt there's no JJP in the top, I think, 25 right now. um but anyway yeah it'll do just fine i think um you know is this the two year in the waiting masterpiece game that was gonna change every yeah no it's yeah it's another pinball machine it's a good effort i don't think it's elwyn's best but you know look if you love the theme you got a jaws pinball you got it from the best designer in all the pinball if you know and you're happy and that's what pinball is about like you want the theme you love to be made by the company that's going to do it right and do it justice. You know, moment of silence for all the Princess Bride fans out there that now have to go buy a Multimortific. Damn! I think the theme integration on this game, on the LE, not the Pro, on the LE, with the little boat, with the big boat, that upper play field, I think if you like the theme, if you like the movies, you have got the greatest designer, you have got great shots on layout, and you have got toys. We don't know it yet. I mean, on the pro, when you shoot the ball, you shoot a ball to the left and a ball in the middle. That's what you aim for, okay? Yeah. But on the premium LE, you have the ball to the left, but here you have got the shark. I think usually they make okay pros, but on this one, I mean, I urge everybody to buy the premium LE. Yeah, but everyone's realizing this as they look at the game is, you know, you think about it. How can you have a software run on both of them? You know, pretty similar. And the upper play field is really just a glorified diverter in the game. And so, like, it's not really doing that much. You know, it has got the spinner on the upper play field.
    57:14
    Yeah, it's just a diverter. The upper play field, it is a glorified diverter. you know it doesn't really have like its own sort of like mini world experience up there that i think people might think i mean look but again jeng is i look at the boat on pirates of the caribbean and then i look at this game's boats yeah oh oh oh you know like we know what's possible in the world of engineering and pinball and then yeah yeah years back it was possible but not now well not now anyway brother always a pleasure talking this is going to be the best hour of content that got created today yeah have a great day my friend and I'll see you on the next video I'll see you in like two hours hey what's up I heard this yeah yeah yeah have a great day my friend bye
    58:17
    Thank you.