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Episode 131 - 2020 Year-End Review

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 3m·held·Dec 28, 2020
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

2020 year-end pinball review: new awards framework, Led Zeppelin game critique, Stern EULA crackdown concerns.

Summary

Dennis and Tony host a 2020 year-end review episode covering pinball industry awards, the Led Zeppelin pinball release, Stern's new EULA restrictions on streaming and modifications, and broader concerns about intellectual property enforcement. They discuss the newly announced Pinball Industry Awards (critics' choice, hall of fame, and excellence awards), provide critical reactions to Led Zeppelin artwork and design, and analyze Stern's increasingly restrictive licensing language targeting unauthorized software, modifications, and content distribution.

Key Claims

  • Stern temporarily removed streaming restriction language from software EULA but will likely reintroduce it in restructured form in the new year

    medium confidence · Dennis states he checked the EULA the previous day and the streaming restriction was no longer present; he notes they heard it was temporarily taken down, likely due to flooded permission requests

  • Led Zeppelin Pro/LE artwork is poor quality compared to Gun N' Roses in terms of art direction and theme integration

    high confidence · Both hosts explicitly state artwork is 'terrible' and 'horrible'; Dennis expresses disappointment given the scale of the Led Zeppelin license vs. GNR

  • Steve Ritchie's Led Zeppelin design appears heavily constrained by the license with limited creative flexibility

    high confidence · Dennis notes Ritchie is 'stuck with the license where there's no flexibility' and must use album art exclusively; contrasts with creative freedom on Black Knight

  • Stern's EULA modifications target unauthorized software, video assets, audio replacements, and hardware modifications more aggressively than streaming restrictions

    medium confidence · Tony and Dennis discuss incoming crackdowns on Pin Browser, custom audio/video packages, and mod hardware that directly integrate with pinball electronics

  • The Pinball Industry Awards Critics' Choice section is the primary focus; Excellence Awards are experimental and potentially problematic due to TPN-only voting

    high confidence · Dennis explicitly states his bias toward critics' choice awards; Tony expresses concern that Excellence Awards are 'exclusive' and could be seen as 'giving yourselves awards'

Notable Quotes

  • “I expected a lot more art-wise than what we actually ended up getting.”

    Dennis @ mid-episode — Summarizes core criticism of Led Zeppelin's visual presentation despite the prestige of the license

  • “Yeah, I don't like the art. Playfield art's okay, but, yeah, hate the pro. Absolutely hate the pro.”

    Dennis @ mid-episode — Direct, emphatic rejection of Pro and LE artwork; establishes tone of disappointment

  • “Steve Ritchie got stuck with the license where there's no flexibility and here, you'll use a bunch of album art and you'll like it.”

    Dennis @ mid-episode — Identifies licensing constraint as primary factor limiting creative freedom on high-profile IP

  • “I think that's why they took it down is I think that they got flooded with requests.”

    Tony @ EULA section — Speculates on Stern's motivation for temporarily removing streaming permission language

  • “I just don't understand. I mean, it's not like they can put every song in, but again... What's their most famous, most successful song?”

    Dennis @ Led Zeppelin discussion — Questions absence of 'Stairway to Heaven' from game despite its iconic status

  • “Well, when they announce a second topper in a year's time that comes with special extra special game modes, that one will be $2,000.”

    Tony @ Led Zeppelin discussion — Satirical commentary on escalating topper pricing and potential for future premium add-ons

  • “I'm a big fan of Critics' Choice Awards, and I think pinball deserved to have a Critics' Choice Award.”

    Dennis @ Awards section — States primary motivation for establishing separate critics' awards vs. People's Choice (Twippies)

  • “I think the media will give a fairer shake than the public at large to the less produced games.”

    Dennis @ Awards discussion — Articulates hypothesis about how critics' votes may differ from public voting patterns

Entities

DennispersonTonypersonSteve RitchiepersonJack DangerpersonGary SternpersonJeffpersonStern PinballcompanyRoanoke Pinball Museumorganization

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Stern's EULA language regarding streaming permissions generated significant community backlash and flooded permission requests; language temporarily removed pending restructuring

    high · Dennis and Tony note EULA was temporarily removed; Tony speculates Stern 'got flooded with requests' causing removal; language expected to return in new form

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball Industry Awards represents new attempt at critics' choice voting separate from public Twippies; experimental three-tier structure (critics' choice, hall of fame, excellence awards) with potential design issues

    high · Dennis: 'I'm a big fan of Critics' Choice Awards, and I think pinball deserved to have a Critics' Choice Award'; acknowledges Excellence Awards section is 'highly experimental'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Significant disappointment in Led Zeppelin regarding missing 'Stairway to Heaven' song despite being most famous Led Zeppelin track and best-selling album content

    medium · Dennis: 'I'm sure a lot of people are upset that stairway to heaven's not in the game'; notes it's seventh best-selling album ever and most successful song

  • ?

    product_concern: Tony expresses concern that Excellence Awards are exclusive to TPN members and could enable voting based on personal animosities; questions why Excellence Awards and Critics' Choice held simultaneously

    medium · Tony: 'it feels like this is something designed to be more even more exclusive... something that it will be more allowable for people to close out and block off stuff based around personal animosities'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.191

0:00
This episode of the Eclectic Gamers podcast is brought to you by the Roanoke Pinball Museum in Roanoke, Virginia. The Roanoke Pinball Museum is an interactive museum dedicated to the science and history of pinball. Their mission is to cultivate curiosity in science, art, and history through pinball while preserving and honoring its role in American culture. The museum is open every day except Monday and houses over 65 machines with models ranging from 1932 to 2018. Roanoke Pinball Museum. And now, the weather.
0:48
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, December 27th. This is episode 131. I'm Tony. And I'm Dennis. And for those that have listened to the introduction before the real introduction, which is, of course, this introduction, they have heard the final Roanoke Pinball Museum ad. Yay! For those that don't remember, we've been running Roanoke Pinball Museum ads for over a year, actually, now. I figured we'd just do it throughout the calendar year for convenience. And this is our last 2020 episode. And that was, of course, in exchange for the glorious surprise gift that was Campus Queen to Tony. Yes. which I'll give you a little hint right off the front that's my game of the year 2020 because it's the only one I can remember playing oh yeah that's right hey you could write that in for EM on that hall of fame category on the pinball industry awards oh that's valid I will do that it's a write in for EM all the EM fans are furious and I understand because it's like We're just going to have you write in an EM. Everyone's got drop-downs and categories and EM. No. They must crawl in the dirt. We can't pull up the top 100 EMs and just put them into the drop-down with everything else. That doesn't make sense. Well, if it was done like everything else, then it actually would have to be like all the EMs. We followed the same rule was sort of the problem, I think. I don't know. I didn't work on that aspect. I wasn't really concerned with the whole thing. Like all EMs ever? So, anyway. That would be annoying just for trying to scroll through the drop down. It's pretty painful to like scroll through the 80s and 90s because they're by decade. And it's just I mean, there's even with a you do like a 500 game production requirement. Well, most of them reached that. So it's like it's, you know, everything's in there is what it feels like. But wow. But hey, it was it's a really interesting, comprehensive effort. You know, this being COVID year in 2020, a lot of locations have closed. I'm not going to say that Roanoke remains open solely because of our advertising, but probably.
Pinball Network
organization
Led Zeppelin Pinballgame
Gun N' Roses Pinballgame
Black Knight Pinballgame
Dead Flipgame
Campus Queengame
Pin Browserproduct
Twippiesevent
Pinball Industry Awardsevent
Super Awesome Pinball Showmedia
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
Zach Dangerperson

design_philosophy: Led Zeppelin artwork on Pro and LE described as 'terrible' and 'horrible'; significant disappointment given prestige of license and perceived artistic quality of Gun N' Roses

high · Dennis: 'I expected a lot more art-wise than what we actually ended up getting'; Tony: 'the fact that the best I can say is that the premium art is all right. and the pro and le art is horrible'

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: DMCA strikes increasingly affecting pinball content creators; Dead Flip reveal taken down from Twitch; content now restricted to Stern Insider access only

    high · Dennis: 'the Dead Flip reveal... was taken down right away and if you want to watch the footage you have to sign up to be a Stern Insider'; notes DMCA issues will 'get worse, not better'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Steve Ritchie constrained by Led Zeppelin licensing; only permitted to use album artwork, creating 'straitjacket lockdown' compared to creative freedom on Black Knight

    high · Dennis: 'Steve Ritchie got stuck with the license where there's no flexibility and here, you'll use a bunch of album art and you'll like it'

  • $

    market_signal: Led Zeppelin Pro layout criticized as flow fest with notable design limitation (hermit target replacing warp ramp); compared unfavorably to typical Ritchie designs; Premium tier appears more playable than Pro

    medium · Dennis: 'the hermit target, instead of the warp ramp being a ramp, looks suspiciously clunky'; Tony: 'the premium actually looks more flowy, which is atypical for a Richie'

  • $

    market_signal: Led Zeppelin topper announced at $850; Tony jokes about potential future 'second topper' at $2,000, reflecting broader industry concern about escalating premium add-on pricing

    high · Tony's satirical comment: 'when they announce a second topper in a year's time that comes with special extra special game modes, that one will be $2,000'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Stern's new EULA restrictions target unauthorized software modifications (Pin Browser custom audio/video), hardware integrations, and derivative content; enforcement mechanisms unclear but anticipated

    high · Tony: 'I think this other stuff about developing or distributing unauthorized content or unauthorized software, there's a lot more potential for crackdown here'

    • 2:55
    We like to believe that. We do. Also because they're awesome. Yes. So if any other entities would like us to save them, you can contact Tony for his game list.
    3:08
    So what's been going on, Tony? This is our year-end review episode. I'm kind of out of room. No, you'll make more room. There's always room. There's room for Jell-O and there's room for Pimble. Well, I already tried the argument that we need to get the kids bunk beds and move them into one room so I can have another room. That could bring them closer together as siblings. It seemed like a really good idea to me, but I was outvoted three to one.
    3:36
    I flat lost that one. That's unfortunate. But, you know, we can't always win all our arguments, unfortunately. No. On the other hand, I could take over and rule with an iron fist and just do it.
    3:52
    That's true. Begging for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission. Right. Yeah. No, I'm sure that would blow up in my face real bad. No way.
    4:03
    Well, I finished Cyberpunk, so that's what I've been doing the last couple weeks. I have not. I'm still in the first section because not like the learn to play section, but the first act. Mainly because I found a new YouTube channel that is all about, it's another lore channel. I watch a lot of lore channels and this one's a Battletech lore channel. and the guy who hosted I really enjoy, so I kind of binged pretty much, well, the entire direct Battletech lore section plus a couple other of the playlists on that channel over the course of the last, like, two weeks.
    4:56
    And Cyberpunk required too much attention while playing, So I've been playing other less pay attention to style games, more idle style games, while I've been burning through hours and hours and hours and hours of playlists. Yes. Yeah, that is true. There's a lot of story in Cyberpunk. I got into a lot more side missions that actually did a better job telling about things. and I had 14 crashes total. Well, no, 15 actually. I had my 15th crash was while the credits were rolling. I've never had that happen before. So I had to restart the credits.
    5:39
    But only two of those crashes, including that 15th, happened after the second 15 gigabyte patch that came out just a few days ago. But I have other stuff I need to do. I can't keep just sitting there waiting for CD Projekt Red to clean up their act. So it's like, let's get through it. Let's move on. and yeah it was alright I liked parts of it and in other parts of it I thought were pretty pedestrian but now I'm playing Code Vein which is a 2019 game from Bandai Namco I believe someone described it to me as Weeb Dark Souls oh nice and yeah the mechanics are very Dark Souls oriented a lot of pattern stuff you die you have to go back and pick up your currency which you use both for leveling and buying and upgrading items so it's very important to you very confusing game and it is very anime so I see where the weeb remark came from but that's pretty much it for me yeah I've been playing the more idly games but that includes I just picked it up on the Steam Winter Sale I've been playing the fourth edition of Creeper World and those games, if you've never played a Creeper World game, there are obviously four of them. Most of them are very cheap at this point, other than the fourth one because it came out like three weeks ago.
    7:11
    But it's one of those games where you're basically just trying to, how did I put it? Basically, there's a giant flood of alien monstrous nano-liquid moving around, and you're trying to kill it and survive type game. Okay. So it's one of those games that doesn't require nearly the kind of attention that a cyberpunk does or any of those other big story-driven games do, but, yep, that's what I've been doing.
    7:49
    Okay. Well, we do have a little bit of news in both pinball and video games. And then otherwise, we're really just going to talk a little bit about year-end review stuff. And I don't expect this to be an overly bloated episode, but we'll see how it goes. And going on into pinball, let's go ahead and start with a few of the news items. First thing I'll go ahead and announce is the Pinball Industry Awards, which the Pinball Network, which I'm affiliated with, and I did help put these together, announced a few days ago. I have a link in the show notes to the website so people can read up on it and those that are interested in participating can participate with it. This is not a People's Choice Award. It's – well, it's in three chunks, which doesn't help in explaining it as I was explaining to Tony earlier because I think it's – I think we made it a little confusing. Other than on the website where it's spelled out pretty well, it's really hard to elevate or pitch it. So as you know, Tony, and I think as I've commented on this podcast for years now, I'm a big fan of Critics' Choice Awards, and I think pinball deserved to have a Critics' Choice Award.
    8:50
    And I enjoy participating in People's Choice Awards like the Twippies. This is not a competitor to the Twippies. It's not trying to replace the Twippies. It's just a different flavor of award, just like we see in the other hobbies we participate in. Lots of different types of awards exist. It's not, in my mind, a big deal. It's just supposed to be for fun. So the main awards are what I consider the pinball industry awards, the critics awards. Those are the ones that are being voted on by a panel of judges from the media. And these are all about selecting games. So it's awards for the industry from pinball media. And that can be people who write articles, people who record podcasts, people who stream, and people who do videos like on YouTube. And the website has all the details in terms of who qualifies. But those that are interested, I think the deadline's the 30th. You go and you request a ballot and then a few days into January, the ballot will go out and those individuals will vote. And that's the critic choice aspect. That's the part I'm interested in. So separate from that, though, but as a part of the overall package, there are a couple of other items. One is that a Hall of Fame, and that is open to the public. That's not voting for 2020 stuff, but it's sort of games grouped by decade. And then as I was joking, the poor little EMs are stuck with a write-in. And so that's just to let the people kind of decide if they want to say, hey, what was like the best game from the 80s or the best game from the 90s and sort of do sort of some inductees. I don't – it's not – to my knowledge, who would you send them to? It's not like we're sending them awards or anything. It's just a for fun thing that we decided to add on. And then the third thing is what I – what are called the Excellence Awards or I usually – to clarify, I call the TPN Excellence Awards. That's not awards designed to go to TPN people, but that's what TPN folks who are members of the Pinball Network will be able to nominate people for. That's not about games. It's about people. That third piece there is, at least in my view, highly experimental. We don't know if it's going to work, if people are going to hate the format of it. The idea in that, though, is that it's not about having a winner of each category. It can go to multiple people. You don't have to give one out. And like if you didn't think anyone did a good job writing, you don't have to. Sorry to insult everyone, but you don't have to give one out, that sort of thing. So anyway, so three very different concepts, but all sort of revolving around the anchor, which is that that critic choice thing. And I know you've applied for a ballot because you told me I have. I'm I have and I'm a big fan of the critics choice section of the event. Let's go with that. Since there's multiple sections that are all handled differently, I'm just going to call it an event. Do you think different games will win versus what will be chosen for the best stuff out of the Twippies? See, that's what I'm curious about. That's why I've always wanted a Critics' Choice. I don't know. I mean, honestly, I think I could see it. I could really see it having, because there's going to be stuff that's, might be less flashy and less grabby of your attention, but is better actually playing and such that might take awards away that you wouldn't see in the Twippies. If you understand what I'm meaning. I'm wondering about if the media will, and this is obviously, this is my theory. My theory is the media will give a fairer shake than the public at large to the less produced games. That's what, now whether or not that manifests in different results or not, I have absolutely no idea. But that's what I think is so interesting about it. Just like if there was, and this would not be something I would tack on to the Pinball Industry Awards or on to the Twippies or on to any existing award model. But, for example, I think it would be really interesting if there was an operator-oriented award setup where operators were the voters. And do they make different choices? That's what's so interesting about when you slice things in different ways. And that's what I'm curious about. Yeah, that one could be very interesting, too. Sure, sure. But I think it would need to stand alone. And that's part of the – there's not been a whole ton of criticism really online other than the do we need another award? And the answer is no, we don't. We don't need any awards. So, you know. Yeah. See, I don't mind this because this is a different style of award. I mean, I'll be flat out, like, I'm not a fan of the whole excellence awards. It's very nebulous, and given that it's being chosen by TPN people, obviously that's a level of exclusivity that's not oriented around, like, a critic category. See, I mean, and the fact that they're happening at the same time in the same event is weird to me because wouldn't you have it just be your judging panel then for that too instead it feels like this is something designed to be more even more exclusive let's put it that way something that it will be more allowable for people to uh close out and block off stuff based around personal animosities as it were seems a little no bueno to me but it's not my system I didn't put it together I think just having them both at the same time in the same place is disingenuous it was not my recommendation but I didn't win every vote so we'll see how it works out if people are able to like it. I get some efficiency reasons for combining them in ceremony purposes. I don't know still why we're doing it exactly the way we are. I mean, here's the thing.
    14:49
    Is the whole ceremony and everything, is it going to be live or is it going to be prerecorded and released? This year, prerecorded and released. If it's going to be prerecorded and released, then if it's just about getting people together and doing everything, It can all be done in a run, but that doesn't mean it all has to be released as one giant single item. I don't know. I just think it's weird to have it organized how it's organized. That's a good point. But then I'm not one of the organizers, so I think it's weird how the Twippies are organized in a lot of ways. And we've talked about that in the past, how there's whole segments in the Twippies I think just flat shouldn't exist. so yeah there well i think we'll we'll get a lot of critiques on what doesn't work with it from this first go and then we can hopefully make some adjustments but i'm just noting we weren't all in agreement on things uh some things i won on some things i didn't my i've been pretty transparent i think that my bias has been towards focusing on what i consider the main aspect which is the critic choice awards and i am pretty pleased with how that ultimately turned out in terms of the criteria to be judges and the ballot approach I really happy with where that ended up and that's what I was interested in. And so unfortunately, I've been so busy with work. Most of that I laid out months ago, and other than some minor revisions to the criteria that others weighed in on, it's pretty much as I envisioned it. And I admittedly stayed relatively hands off on the other aspects because I've just been too busy. And I, if people felt strongly about it, I'm like, Hey, you want to try it out and see if it works. I, you know, I have some, I'm, I'm skeptical in some ways, but I get what you're going for. So, you know, good luck. Yeah. I mean, none of it offends me. None of it, I don't think is, is a big deal. There might be some like, you know, if excellence awards ends up going to, to TPN people, people will probably say, Hey, look, you're giving yourselves awards. Aren't you proud and it's like okay hey hey that's i'm just saying that's a landmine that's really easy to see oh no it was one of the first landmines i saw until i learned more about it then i started seeing all the other ones so we'll we'll see we'll see ultimately when the when the process is because obviously we haven't walked through we haven't uh done this process before we haven't done a dry run on it so we'll see if we end up stepping on that landmine or if we take some steps to avoid them. We will have to wait and see, as they say. Anyway, so that's a new thing. And I will still mention, I mean, I'm still a big fan of the Twippies. I like what Jeff's done. I like a lot of the changes they've been doing. The only reason for those that are curious if they suspected anything that we didn't mention the pre-Twippy voting is it opened and closed between our episodes. So we didn't have an opportunity to share a link. but um yeah i do plan to share one when the final ballot is out because that will be open long enough that that shouldn't be a problem for us if it works like it typically has which is i think voting for most if not all of january and then that award ceremony will be in march like uh like it usually is so now i guess it will be recorded now that there's no texas pinball festival but i don't know that for sure yeah maybe they'll do it live uh speaking of live have you ever seen Led Zeppelin live in concert, Tony?
    18:10
    No. Okay. Well, you can now play their pinball machine live in your home. Well, no, you probably couldn't because they only made a few pros so far and they focused on operators that are actually still operating. But in theory, you could get the game. Which, hey, I'm actually kind of okay with that considering the damage the industry has taken this year. I don't really have issues with them putting it out to try and shore that up. They did that at least one other time where they did a really, really small run of pros. I can't remember which game it was, but then they moved on right away and then eventually went back to the pros and they had focused on operators. So I guess they like that approach. I don't know. obviously the big issue we've touched on it repeatedly throughout this year of DMCA but unfortunately a lot of people that tried to watch the dead flip reveal which was actually streamed on Facebook to try and circumvent DMCA issues or at least punishments that Twitch would implement that was on the Stern Facebook page but it was hosted by Jack Danger of dead flip unfortunately for many in the US the stream was taken down right away and if you want to watch the footage you have to sign up to be a Stern Insider and go to the Stern website and play it there, which I have not bothered doing. So I did watch a little bit of video, but most of my experience with Led Zeppelin has been from the still photos. I am in the exact same boat as you. And I think this is the sort of thing that people need to get used to because it's going to get worse, not better.
    19:46
    So I just wondered if you wanted to share any preliminary thoughts on Led Zeppelin. I've already talked about it on another podcast, and I don't know if I want to repeat myself much here. Here, I'm going to do the old Johnny Carson thing. Hold the card up to my head. Let's see. Dennis said he doesn't like the artwork on the Pro, and he doesn't like the artwork on the LE, and I agree. I think they're terrible. Oh, they're so bad. I expected a lot more art-wise than what we actually ended up getting.
    20:30
    Yeah. I mean, my nutshell whole game summary is, yeah, I don't like the art. Playfield art's okay, but, yeah, hate the pro. Absolutely hate the pro. Don't just hate the pro art. Don't like the pro layout. I think that hermit target, instead of the warp ramp being a ramp, looks suspiciously clunky. I, and I, it's like everything I would have expected to see when I was told it's a Steve Ritchie with three flippers. And so I was, I was disappointed that I wasn't surprised at all. Yeah, I'm, I'm, the fact that the best I can say is that the premium art is all right. and the pro and le art is horrible the the game i haven't seen enough i don't know how it's going to play i i agree with you that the pro does not look to have the same level of fun that the others will have but i can't even judge any of that because i've not seen any play video really so I just have pictures to go on and what other people have said and that is one of those things that I try to avoid going on I think so soon after the beautiful theme integration and art and everything that was GNR considering Zeppelin is so much bigger to me than GNR is really disappointing.
    22:16
    Yeah, I think it's like, once again, Steve Ritchie got stuck with the license where there's no flexibility and here, you'll use a bunch of album art and you'll like it, and that's what you can do.
    22:30
    It's just one of those things that's like, well, hey, we gave you Black Knight, you had total control, now you have to go into the full here's the straitjacket lockdown. Oh, and he probably is a big... I know he's a big music guy. He's probably a huge Led Zeppelin fan. So I wouldn't be surprised if he volunteered for the theme itself. It's just, yeah, it sort of seems to be his fate, as you noted, Black Knight as an exception.
    22:53
    From the gameplay, it looks like it's a flow fest, which I would love. Other than the pro with that shot. So the premium actually looks more flowy, which is atypical for a Richie. But not, I mean, I don't think it's necessarily unheard of. It's not a deal breaker, ultimately. the rules sound very combo oriented which sound i mean the game sounds fun it's just there's so many other flow games that i can pick from that are fun too that i could get a pro and not feel like i got cheated out of my flow yeah and that's my i hate to blame it all on one ramp going away but it's just so strict i mean yeah what i do like uh besides that it does look even the pro overall compared to a number of games is you, you do have Richie flow. It looks fast. The rules sound fun. I don't fully understand those yet though. So, you know, the caveat noted there, uh, the lighting system that they routed into the cabinet, uh, that does look cool. I don't think it looks Hot Rails, uh, GNR cool, but it does look, it does look good. And it is nice that you have the option to add it onto the pro though. Again, it's not there because nothing's there on the pro um it's just yeah i just i wasn't expecting a whole lot uh the the video assets look cool kind of acid trip style approach that they went with the live footage i think that looks cool you know of course if you like led zeppelin the sound's probably great for you i like obviously fine but um it's like well whatever i'm sure a lot of people are upset that stairway to heaven's not in the game. I, you know, I think you're probably right. I just don't understand.
    24:31
    I mean, it's not like they can put every song in, but again. What's their most famous, most successful song?
    24:39
    It's from, it's from album four, their best-selling album, seventh best-selling album of any album ever. I mean, it's Stairway.
    24:48
    True. Is it going to be with the topper? You know, So it wouldn't surprise me for them to, yeah, oh, yeah, if you want stairway, you got to get the $2,000 stairway topper. Topper's already confirmed at $850, Tony.
    25:05
    Well, no, no, no, no, no. That's the topper they've already announced. When they announce a second topper in a year's time that comes with special extra special game modes, that one will be $2,000. That's a fair point. It'll latch on to the top of the topper you already have, so you can have double top toppers. Wow. You can have the topper and the tippity top topper, which adds extra modes for just an extra $2,000. Mmm. You know, I thought about starting a mod company where I would just design tiny hats for toppers.
    25:44
    Tiny top hats for toppers? Yeah. They'd be adorable. But I don't know if I'm allowed to under these new EU rules. EULA were statements from Stern. I don't know. I think based upon how they looked, I don't think you're allowed to do much of anything. So that was my subtle transition here to another Stern topic. Been a buzz. The Internet's been aglow with fear and sorrow as we've seen a variety of EULA statements coming out that people are seeing with Stern. First, there was people downloading game code where the game code required an EULA agreement specifying that you would not stream the game without Stern's permission. I tried and checked that yesterday, and it was no longer popping up in EULA when I tried to download any software. And I had heard that they have temporarily taken that down, but that will probably be back in the new year. maybe restructured it a little bit because I guess purportedly Stern didn't actually want every single person on Twitch emailing them asking them for permission so I don't I'm assuming this is this aspect is just a you know cover your butt sort of thing where they don't want to be held responsible for people violating a license agreement by going online with something that they had the license to sell you but they didn't get a license to broadcast it right Right. Which, I mean, that's just the kind of typical CYA thing that I have no problems understanding, especially with how hard DMCA strikes have been hitting lately in all facets of the streaming community. I was just surprised at how it was phrased.
    27:35
    I've seen so many disclaimers. You know, there's disclaimers on all sorts of stuff, like you only use this as the manual specifies. You're not entitled to rebroadcast. But instead, they said they somehow have the ability to give you permission. I feel like that is literally a cover for them to have for their releases and for their in-house people. that they can say, hey, we did this for this reason, and it might be something worked into a license or elsewhere. I feel like that's the kind of thing that that was. I just don't see why they would need it then. I mean, if they're streaming it, that's separate from whatever end user agreement, because they're not the user, they're the manufacturer. They have a whole different set of rules. Well, it depends upon, I think that would depend upon how they're viewing the streaming and the setup and everything.
    28:40
    If it's, I mean, if it's them directly or if it's versus someone that they give direct permission to.
    28:48
    But I don't know. Why does it need to be in the end user agreement? Let's say, all right, we know what we're talking about. We're talking about Zack Danger with Dead Flip. So can't they just, though, have a contract with him that specifies here? We give you permission. We don't need to mention that you have special permission in our EULA. They just give them, he gets a separate agreement. No problem. But this gives them flexibility to give permission to other people. But they always have that flexibility, regardless of what's in the end user agreement. The contract would always trump such an agreement. Right, but it doesn't necessarily have to be something where they're working with somebody in contract. It could be something where they're just wanting the ability to hand it out to somebody else just because they're friends or something. I mean, it's just a guess. I don't know why. I think the big thing is it's a CYA. I think it's because if you do the wording the right way, you don't have to worry so much. And when a licensor comes back yelling at you, you're like, well, we didn't tell them they could. They just chose to do it. Go talk to them. I get it. I don't know. I guess. I don't know. They have the ability to grant special permissions without covering it in the EULA. So I don't know why they invited people to contact them in the EULA. I think it was a huge mistake. I think that's why they took it down is I think that they got flooded with requests. Oh, I wouldn't be surprised. I'd love to see how it's reworded when it comes back out because I wouldn't be surprised that that whole section is completely redone. Yeah, no, I would not be either. Now, separate from that, we've also been seeing a lot of what kind of relates to that Gary Stern interview, I believe, on the Super Awesome Pinball Show regarding the crackdown on modification. We've been getting a lot of examples, screenshots sent to us, have we not, Tony? Yes, we have. As recently as like 45 minutes ago. And I'm going to say this stuff looks like it will have the bigger impact. Because I do agree with you. I think the EUL is going to be recrafted regarding the streaming aspect. And as a CYA, they're not really going to do a lot. On this other stuff about developing or distributing unauthorized content or unauthorized software, there's a lot more potential for crackdown here. Yeah, I think there is. And I think especially since a lot of it seems to be laid out based around their online platform of whatever kind that is coming at some unknown point in the future, I think it's definitely this will be the areas where they're doing the actual shots and takedowns and stuff. and I can see we do know a number of people have developed video and audio assets that are replacement software packages those clearly are in violation of this there's also things like the pin browser where people change out the music even I mean just there a lot of stuff that going to fall under this so we going to have to see how draconian they get with a crackdown on this stuff But there are some pretty rampant violations that are going on based off of this new language that I could see definitely are going to run into a problem I'm also curious about the mod companies. And I still think that by and large, you would say, well, generic mods aren't going to run like a DMCA license issue. But most of them integrate into the hardware in some way, like they're latching on to a lamp string to get power. Yeah, and those could be iffy. I think any of the mods that go in and directly make adjustments to the hardware or add, so adding extra speakers, adding headphone jacks, making changes to screens and stuff. Obviously, anything that even touches the software in any way, shape, or form. I think those are all going to be hit. I mean, it might be to the point where you're down to the only kind of mods you see are the ones that don't even tie into a light. They're just a physical there thing. Unless they consider me setting a stuffed animal on top of my machine, a mod.
    33:14
    Well, the thing is, some of that, while they might be making statements that fall in that realm, I'm not sure how legally enforceable some of that is. because the right for, we're not leasing these games. We own them. So given, once you own something, your ability to- For now. For now, yes. We've seen changes on software. They could, yeah, I mean, they could make the argument on the software. And that's what most of the argument examples I've seen from their, the quotes from their documentation are mostly about software.
    33:46
    And I could see that. Physical mods, though, if it's not, you know, if it doesn't say Batman on it, for example, and it's a thing, and you add it on, the mod company isn't adding it on there for you. You as the end user are. If you're violating your end user agreement, I could see it voiding your warranty, you know, if you short out your policy. Well, I mean, in this day and age, there is no reason that they couldn't shut your machine off. Yeah, they could detect it, sure. right if it could detect it or if they chose to there's no reason they couldn't just hit the button and your machines turned off that's just one of those things that's possible with the machines being so completely software dependent just like with anything else I mean the same thing could happen with your car or it could happen with anything that's massively software dependent is it could be just shut off remotely yeah the the the issue i'm having though is that their ability to do that and the legality of being able to do it are two different items right and and the big thing there is going to be the difference in uh owning versus leasing and with so many states that have started uh codifying laws to protect stuff like that and like the right to repair and codifying the difference between actually owning and leasing something. We will start to see a lot of differences because of that. Because, yeah, I mean, if you own it, you should be able to do whatever you want to it. But again, we're just not at this point. We're just not sure what they're going for here. I think it's most again, I think it's mostly about not wanting their software modified, especially as they move into the online realm, coupled with this crackdown because of the anger from the licensors as pinball has become more and more popular regarding those that are making very clear IP infringing mods and selling them. That's what I think the focus is. But, of course, when we see these things in the very broad in their language, people get understandably very concerned that you're going to start going after the little guy, modifying their own personal property. That's going to be the big interesting thing, because I recall that happened. And that kind of thing kind of blew up with John Deere not that long ago, where they were reducing, like you weren't even allowed to fix stuff.
    36:31
    Because, oh, you leased it, so it had to go to a John Deere tech. And you couldn't do any repairs without it being done by a licensed, certified John Deere tech. Or else it violated everything, and they'd come pick it up. Yeah, yeah, I remember. That kind of reminds me of Monsanto and their seed rules, too. They get you to agree that you won't save seeds from plants you've grown to replant. You have to buy the seeds every time. Yeah. Insanity like that.
    37:04
    Because that's what that is. That's just flat and sane, in my opinion. In my non-lawyer, non-corporate opinion. But and if that's the model that's being gone for here, I will just I will simply advise. Bear in mind, Monsanto actually has really skilled lawyers that helped craft how they could do that nonsense. So be careful. Don't buy seeds from Monsanto. And some farmers aren't, even though the like the pest and drought resistance of them make them very attractive. But there are plenty of land grant colleges that have come up with essentially public domain seed options that are at least somewhat resistant. But that's it for the Farming-Clectic podcast.
    37:48
    Let's go ahead and just hop into our year in review. I don't know if I want to – there's not much to celebrate with this year, I feel. Hey, I've already told you my game of the year. That's true. You did.
    38:01
    Just in terms of quick highlights, I think obviously the impact of coronavirus has been, I believe, most explicitly felt by those that have been operating pinball machines. We've heard of a number of locations closing down. I'd say the biggest shocker and largest thing to be shut down would be replay effects in Pinnberg, which was all that long ago, as collateral damage from the coronavirus.
    38:30
    I've heard that homeownership has been going up, though. And other than that lull in the early shutdown period of that sort of March through May time frame, the pinball manufacturers have still been pretty much as busy as usual. I mean, we saw Heist come out of Multimorphic. We saw Hot Wheels come out of American Pinball. Stern Pinball put out Turtles, Avengers, and now Led Zeppelin. Jersey Jack got out Guns N' Roses. Kelts, I believe, was officially released at this stage. And sales are ongoing for Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure Land from Deep Root. So, I mean, the only thing on the manufacturer front is I had heard that Chicago Gaming was putting out a remake this year, and they clearly haven't. So that's the only one that I'm aware of that missed their mark.
    39:19
    Considering what we thought in April and May, they've done a lot better than I expected. I expected the industry to take a bigger hit than the manufacturers. let's put it this way, I expected the manufacturers to have taken a larger hit that actually appears to have happened.
    39:39
    I'm the same, incidentally. When I say industry, I'm thinking manufacturers because they're the ones actually industrial building things. Correct.
    39:49
    I mean, I think that's a pretty good... There weren't really any tournaments or anything. There's not much else to talk about with pinball.
    39:59
    I've not played any of those games because I've not purchased any of them and had them delivered to my home. So I've not gone anywhere since March that had pinball and played.
    40:21
    It's just been a weird year. It has. Well, we'll just go ahead and move over to video games then because that's what we can do. So, Cyberpunk. Yay!
    40:34
    Cyberpunk. Yeah. Cyberpunk is having its share of issues, whether with being pulled from the PlayStation Store and a variety of other negative strikes that it has taken online. and that includes now there's a couple of class action suits being put together targeting cd project red and their parent company over uh their lack of disclosure of how buggy the game was and how it was virtually unplayable on ps4 and xbox one and how that affected um investors we i had remembered reading that there were people threatening to do this, but I guess it's finally been filed. Yeah, there's been one filed so far that has not been accepted by the courts yet, and there's been a couple of others that are being put together internationally.
    41:44
    So we don't know yet how far any of these will go, because if it hasn't even been accepted by the courts yet, It's entirely possible that it won't be accepted by the court. We'll just be tossed out. But this is a big step up from people talking about it to actually moving towards a possibly very damaging run on CD Projekt Red. They kind of got themselves in a really bad place. And I honestly think it's 100% their fault. because in January of 2020, they were talking about the game being fully playable and functional and everything worked. They were just cleaning up story stuff and they were just this and that, which then was changed to, Oh, we're just pushing it back to put a little polish on it, to push it back, to put a little polish on it, to push it back yet again, just to do some tweaks to the playability on PS4 and Xbox One, and then what we got coming out and how it played on PS4 and Xbox One makes me wonder how they got it as far as they did, saying it just needed little tweaks. Yeah. It makes it look like they lied. everything they've done this year has flat out been lies because remember there wasn't going to be a crunch they promised their developers there would be no crunch and there was a crunch that lasted for the whole year people started crunching early in 2020 it has not been a good showing for CD Projekt Red, they are not Rockstar. Witcher was super popular, but they are still not Rockstar. Nope. So they can't have the passes that Rockstar apparently has. Well, you know, and I think if you were to, and this is my guess, but if you were to ask a Rockstar person about, you know, saying this and pointing this out and saying, they're not, why aren't they, why aren't they Rockstar? Rockstar would say Because we wouldn't have released it Yeah And that's the thing I think they would have taken a huge publicity hit If they hadn't If they had pushed it back farther But at the same time I think in the end Everything would have been better If they hadn't talked about this game being done in January Well that's the thing I mean it would have been I agree with you Total huge PR hit of their own making They chose to give release dates that they then missed. Yeah. They could have waited until it was ready and then given a release date. And when they did push the games back, they weren't pushing the game back saying, hey, we found an issue and we've got to fix some issues. They were saying, oh, no, this game's completely playable. We just want to polish it to put out a perfect game. We want to put out the best game possible. And then to see that for a year before they dropped what they actually dropped on us just feels like nothing but lies.
    45:14
    Lies. Lies and deceit. And they hurt their standing. Bat, Cyberpunk hurt their standing. The game, I've not had the issues other people have had.
    45:29
    I've had no crashes. I've only had a few bugs that have been very minor. But I'm playing on a high-end PC, and most of the complaints I've heard aren't coming from high-end PCs.
    45:45
    They're coming from the consoles and low- to mid-range PCs. Plebes. All of them. That's the problem.
    45:57
    Get better, noob. Get good. Now, I do find it hilarious that you would think that the system that would have been easiest for them to set everything up for, the PS4s and Xbox Ones, because they've known the exact specs on those systems forever. That's what confuses people. That they could have built around the specs.
    46:21
    Yeah. And it shouldn't have had any issues. That's the challenge. there's no excuse for them not being optimized to last gen consoles because they started development when last gen consoles were what were available. Right. I mean, it makes no sense in, I mean, unless they literally poured everything into making it with everything. All the design was designed around top of the line PCs.
    46:47
    And then it basically was doing, and we're going to release what amounts to an internal port. And they tried to do it all at the same. They did everything around the PC, and then they tried to port it. And that's what everything's been over this last year is trying to port it down to other stuff. Well, and that's – I mean, and I know it frustrates PC people, but there's a reason why usually the crappy ports are on PC. Because the big sales are coming from the console side, and it's just easier to design to that and then shift it to PC than – I mean, because otherwise you get this. where it's like, okay, well, if you have a god-tier PC, no problem, and now everyone else is pissed, and they're all using the same hardware, so you just look like a dip for not figuring it out.
    47:34
    Right, and I think that's part of their... They've had so many issues. The question going forward is, how badly has CD Projekt Red hurt themselves? Because up until now they were one of the darlings they were I mean they taken the slot over from Blizzard basically of being a darling of the community and now what's left Rockstar EA's hated Blizzard has shifted so much to Atari that they're hated and or not Atari, Activision, that they're hated.
    48:20
    Bethesda has not had a good two years, three years. And they were known for games being buggy messes right when they came out, but it's gotten so bad over the last few years that they're even worse shaped than they were normally. I don't know.
    48:40
    Yeah, we'll have to wait longer term. to, it's the only way, see how CD Projekt Red navigates their patches. I mean, the one thing going for them is they still sold a lot of games. They did. And they even,
    48:53
    from what I've read, even with all of the returns and the PS4 pull, it's paid for. The game is paid for.
    49:04
    So ultimately, corporate survival I don't think is at issue here. It's a question of what will the reception be for their next game? Right That seems to be what we're looking at Is how good or how bad Will that be Well We will So Ear in review for video games What are your thoughts Esports were really different I'll tell you that Esports were really different I will be the first person to admit I'm not the hugest esports person The only esports I ever really paid a lot of attention to was the Overwatch League and I didn't watch a ton of it this year compared to normal. Normally I would try, I watched between half and three quarters of the entire season and I was well under half this year. Part of that being because with all the changes, most of the games I wanted to watch started airing at like two in the morning.
    50:05
    Oh yeah. And part of that and part of it was because of just the fact that there for a while, you never really knew when the matches would be or how they would be, and there was some real weird stuff. They'd already had some serious issues coming into this season with their changes from Twitch to YouTube and with their changes in their production staff that was causing them to be way less polished than they had been even last year. But 2020 did not help them and didn't help any of the other esports. I know League of Legends and Dota, they all had huge pauses and shutdowns. And most of the fighting game tournaments were just gone this year. just like pretty much all of the conventions and big things that were canceled this year. That deeply affected the tournament scene for video games across the board.
    51:20
    Yeah, I mean, to me, definitely the change up on the esports, which, again, Overwatch League is pretty much the only one I watched. I watched less of it than I had. Again, similar issues to you. My team was over in the Pacific region, so I couldn't usually be up in time.
    51:37
    Which, like me, made no sense because your team is New York and mine was London, yet they both became Pacific region teams. Thanks, COVID.
    51:45
    The other big thing, E3. No E3. No E3, which honestly was less of a surprise because we've been talking for years about E3's slow, inevitable death, that we're just watching it kind of slouch along towards either completely reinventing itself or finally going away. So I didn't really feel the loss of E3 that much at all. I only did not in terms of the event, but because it was known E3 wasn't going to happen, the game announcements really dispersed a lot more than even just like really being clustered around that one month. It felt like, so it didn't seem like there was this huge surge of gaming news until arguably the game awards here a few weeks ago where i've learned about some new titles because of the trailers that they air during that award show and you know not a but yeah not a biggie but just something notable e3 was one of my few kind of touchstone elements still even as as weak as it has become it's still something i'm always sort of like yes this will be you know like well we this was the first time first year where we've done this podcast where we did not have an entirely only video game oriented around E3-esque announcements. That's true. Because there wasn't. The news was dispersed. Right. Because normally that E3 episode we have typically at least one if not a lot more than that guest host. And we do fairly large and they tend to be some of our longer episodes. Because there's usually just so much meat to cover. I mean, so many games and it was just different. Just different.
    53:33
    Yeah, that and the esports, I'd say, are the big noteworthies. Otherwise, yeah, relatively quiet year for we have two new console releases and no games for them. Yeah. A lot of games got pushed back, not just for the new console releases, but just period as people shifted to work-from-home style.
    53:57
    job design, but the games that did come out were the normal mix of good games and horrible games and games that were expected to be smash hits that just smashed.
    54:17
    Looking at you, Avengers. Oh, poor Avengers. They did okay with their Final Fantasy 7 remake, so I'm not going to give them too much pity. No.
    54:30
    They tried and failed to be what they hoped to be, but that's how it goes sometimes. The stay-at-home fads, you know, Among Us, and what's the one with the people getting knocked down? Fall Guys. Yeah.
    54:49
    I went through a phase. Some could say I'm still kind of in the phase but i went through a phase where i would basically turn on one of two or three different streamers who streamed primarily among us on like saturday morning and i would just watch i just have among us streams as background noise all day long on on christmas uh when we were wrapping up our zoom call my niece which said in the background i heard her tell my sister hey after we're done we can go and we can play among us and so i just said that sounds kind of sus and then of course she thought I was super clever for saying that I'm a smart uncle now both my daughters play Among Us they played my oldest got a Steam gift card as one of her items for Christmas and the first thing she bought with it was Among Us so she could play it on the computer instead of on the phone and Tales of Vesperia because she wanted to play a Weeb RPG.
    55:59
    Yep. That one's a very popular one. I've never played it, though. I played a little bit of it at one point in time. But, yeah, it's been an interesting year all in all. The fact that Among Us has been one of the highest and most streamed games this year on Twitch, and it's a game that came out years ago, is hilarious to me and shows that with all the DMCA stuff that's been happening on Twitch and in streaming in general, that for the actual game developers,
    56:38
    streaming is still a great thing for them. Yeah. As long as they can set things up for, so that there's not stuff inside the game that will necessarily get the streamers taken out.
    56:56
    Like, again, Cyberpunk's got a Twitch mode. Several other games have done streamer modes that make adjustments to the UIs and stuff for streaming purposes. but I think that's been in video games the biggest thing has been the DMCA strikes that have been hitting Twitch since June yeah and interestingly something totally unrelated to COVID just part of the process that finally has struck Twitch yes I do wonder if this isn't something that has been building and then the fact that the number of people watching Twitch has skyrocketed so much just pushed it into overdrive, or if it was just something building. I don't know. It could be a mix of both. That's a good point. I mean, we know YouTube and Facebook had to deal with this before, so I think it was inevitable, but would it have been this fast? I don't know. Right. Yeah, because YouTube and Facebook both have dealt with this for an extended period of time, and Twitch just kind of acted, they're like, well nobody said anything so we're just going to pretend that it's not real. Yay! Magic dust!
    58:09
    And the sad thing is, is I honestly still prefer Twitch's layout, setups, UIs, and everything for finding streamers over YouTube or Facebook gaming. I think it's a lot easier to find people playing with something you want to see specific playing and find specific people on Twitch than it is on YouTube gaming or on the Facebook streaming.
    58:42
    But I don't know if that's just because it's what I'm used to or if it's because it's actually easier. But I watch people on all, well, I watch one person on Facebook, and I've not watched them in a long time because I always forget about them because I don't do anything on Facebook. but it's interesting to me to see how that will shake out over the coming year and beyond and how much damage Twitch is going to take and then how many people are going to be so deeply affected on Twitch yeah it's another thing we will have to keep our eyes on question for you sure how many games that came out this year did you play this year? One, Cyberpunk. Okay. That's what I figured. I will say, of the games that came out this year, since I've played more than one, probably less than five, I will say, it'd be probably just over five, but my favorite of the year that came out this year is going to be Hades. And I've not talked about it a whole lot on the podcast.
    60:06
    I seem to recall mentioning it one time that it's a roguelike hack and slash that is very Greek God themed. The art is beautiful on this game. And if you get a chance to get it at a decent price or to give it a try I highly recommend it I know it's available not just on PC where I play it it's also on Switch and I'm not sure where else it's available those might be the only ones I didn't think it was on the other consoles I didn't think so but I know it's on Switch and PC it won game of the year from some places not from the game awards but it did win game of the Year from some other awards.
    60:58
    Right, and I definitely think it deserves the place. Yeah, it was a nominee even in the... Not that the Game Awards are the awards. See, once again, this is why multiple awards make sense, because different criteria went out depending on what your... Well, it's just like, you can have the argument is when do you consider Hades released? Do you consider Hades released when it released, or do you consider Hades released when it entered early access.
    61:28
    Oh, gosh, I don't like that debate. I remember that debate for so many things, and that's something each company or awards team has to wrestle with and how they want to manage it. Because I remember seeing that when Kerbal Space Program had won in the game thing, and I'm like, but Kerbal's been out for like seven or eight years. And it was because, oh, it came out of early access this year. Mm-hmm. Yep. So. Interesting.
    61:58
    We'll see. Well, that's 2020 for everyone. Yeah. That's. You know, it's amazing. This might be. I know our wrap up, our yearly wrap up episodes are always kind of short. Mm-hmm. But this is short even for one of those. That's just the kind of year 2020 is. Well, yeah. We didn't go to any conventions because they were all canceled. Yeah. We're not going to any conventions next year because they're all canceled Seems that way At least for the first half of the year Well the only ones that were ever on our list Were One of them is completely gone now And We already know that Texas is canceled I might contemplate If it doesn't conflict with another meeting I might contemplate Pinball Expo It's the same distance drive as Frisco Yeah and I can see it I know we've talked about that one in the past It was never on our high up on the list. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. But now it might be by the way that the list is on. It could go very high on the list. Yeah. Wow, look, it's the only thing happening this year. So congratulations, it's on the list. You're on the list. Yeah.
    63:08
    Why am I the only person here? Well, it was a short list. Well, if you'd like to write to us about our list, you can contact us at CollectedGamersPodcast.gmail.com or on Facebook.com slash CollectedGamersPodcast. We're available on Twitch, Twitter, and Instagram As Eclectic underscore Gamers Though at least the Instagram Has been dead this year Because we don't It's hard to post pictures of doing stuff When you don't go anywhere and do anything That's true, that makes it hard Life is hard But we'll talk again With everyone in 2021 See you then Goodbye