Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Episode 104 – Social Media Watch

Head2Head Pinball·podcast_episode·49m 2s·analyzed·Aug 12, 2019
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.020

TL;DR

Industry news roundup: American Pinball theme updates, Dutch Pinball settlement, Stern book progress, Dave & Busters P3 pinball deal.

Summary

Head2Head Pinball hosts Martin and Joe discuss recent industry news including American Pinball theme decisions (ruling out Poker Run, likely pursuing Sherlock Holmes), Dutch Pinball settlement with ARA over The Big Lebowski machines which are now shipping, a Stern pinball book Kickstarter that remains in development (75% complete), and a significant venue breakthrough: Dave & Buster's arcade chain installing Multimorphic P3 machines featuring a custom two-player linked game called 'Heads Up!!,' representing the first major penetration of modern pinball into large casual arcade venues.

Key Claims

  • American Pinball has ruled out Poker Run as a theme and is most likely pursuing Sherlock Holmes next

    high confidence · Martin citing Josh Coogler and American Pinball public statements about theme options (Poker Run, Valkyries, Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood)

  • Dutch Pinball settled with ARA; Dutch Pinball paid ARA a sum of money and received completed/semi-completed games and parts for future machines; the relationship is now ended

    high confidence · Martin citing Jonathan from Pinball News/Pinball Magazine podcast discussing court case details and judge-ordered settlement negotiations

  • The Big Lebowski machines are now shipping to customers after years of delays

    high confidence · Joe observing two unboxing posts in pinball community forums; Martin noting games were air-freighted after quality inspection

  • Dave & Busters is installing Multimorphic P3 machines in their arcade chains

    high confidence · Martin reporting news that came out this week; Joe confirming awareness of video posted by Dave & Busters

  • The custom game for Dave & Busters is called 'Heads Up!!' and is a two-player linked competitive game with gems, scoops, and ball transportation mechanics

    high confidence · Joe describing the game mechanics based on the announcement description

  • Multimorphic has released an Asteroids-themed game module for the P3 system

    medium confidence · Martin mentioning he's only played Lexi but heard about an Asteroids game; Joe confirming he played it with descriptions of block mechanics

  • The Stern pinball book Kickstarter is 75% complete in redesign, with some layouts taking twice as long due to material volume

    high confidence · Martin reading Kickstarter update #40 from creators

  • American Pinball third game is in development and someone from the company expressed genuine excitement about it

    medium confidence · Martin saying he spoke to someone at American Pinball recently who was 'very, very excited' but declining to name the source

Notable Quotes

  • “I think it's probably different days now, and I think people would probably sue you a lot more than they do.”

    Martin @ ~13:30 — Reflects on licensing and IP enforcement evolution; relevant to American Pinball's shift toward eminent domain themes

  • “Because of that, it affected everybody. So there's been this massive hole of properties that everyone should be able to use at this point, but because of the greed of Disney, it hasn't happened.”

    Joe @ ~11:45 — Commentary on copyright law extensions and Disney's impact on public domain; explains American Pinball's business model rationale

  • “Whereas, I don't remember there being any issues for... The Big Lebowski, which is, you know, the big Lebowski that had all these problems.”

    Martin @ ~28:00 — Acknowledges The Big Lebowski's troubled history; expresses hope that shipping units will restore the game's reputation

  • “Because Pinball, it has never been able to penetrate these spaces. And when I saw the video that they posted of what these machines look like and what they're going to do, assuming that nothing goes bad mechanically, it seems like people should eat these things up.”

    Joe @ ~42:30 — Recognition of Dave & Busters as a historic venue breakthrough for pinball; sets up significance of P3's achievement

  • “This system was built for this. It's like this is where you can be the slaves of both masters, where you can have a game in there that's good for the home market, and then you can have a game in the same exact system that's good that can be a redemption game.”

    Joe @ ~47:30 — Explains why P3 succeeded where other manufacturers failed: modularity and dual-purpose design philosophy

Entities

American PinballcompanyJosh CooglerpersonDutch PinballcompanyARAcompanyThe Big LebowskigameDave & Busterscompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball settled court dispute with ARA; paid settlement amount; received completed/semi-completed games and future parts; ended relationship; transitioning to Zytech for manufacturing

    high · Martin citing Pinball News podcast reporting of court case resolution; judge ordered settlement negotiations; basis agreed upon payment terms and asset transfer

  • ?

    product_launch: Dave & Busters installing Multimorphic P3 machines in arcade locations; represents first major penetration of modern pinball into large casual arcade venue chains

    high · Martin and Joe discussing new video from Dave & Busters announcement; custom 'Heads Up' game designed for the chain; two-player linked competitive mechanics

  • ?

    design_innovation: Multimorphic P3 platform successfully adapted for dual-purpose use: home collector market and commercial venue/redemption game market through modular software approach

    high · Joe explaining P3's capability to create both serious home games and simple redemption games; Asteroids, Heads Up, and other modules demonstrating flexibility

  • ?

    product_strategy: American Pinball pursuing eminent domain IP themes to avoid licensing costs; ruled out Poker Run; likely pursuing Sherlock Holmes, Valkyries, or Robin Hood

    high · Martin discussing American Pinball's decision to avoid paid licenses; Joe explaining eminent domain laws and Disney's impact on public domain availability

  • ?

    industry_signal: P3 machines at Dave & Busters represent historic breakthrough for pinball in large casual arcade venues; traditional manufacturers unable to achieve this market penetration

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.062

0:00
Music Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 104 and my name is Martin and with me, Joe. How are you Joe? Good.
0:41
Hmm? Awesome? Yeah, yeah. Still sick. Still looking for answers. Oh really? Yeah. Still looking for answers. I had like four vials of blood taken on Friday that they're trying to figure out what might be. The new theory that they're testing me for is whooping cough.
1:02
Isn't it a thing that kids get? Yes, but adults can get it. And it's harder to diagnose if adults get it, apparently. Because I mentioned to my friend that I was tested for it, and he's like, I got that three months ago, and it's terrible. I'm like, oh, good. At least I know that. I hope it is, just because it's diagnosed. Because I don't recommend having to cough for well over a month. It's not good for you. Well, I think if you're going to get something, at least get a bad one, right? Yeah, yeah. At least you can get some sympathy for that. Otherwise, you'd be accused of man flu. So, you know, it's got to be good. I like that, man flu.
1:37
So, anyway, so I'm now back in Melbourne after two weeks away in the United States of America. What a great time I've had. Seriously, just awesome. But I'm tired. It's seven o'clock in the morning. I am, I don't know what time zone I'm in, but I've been up since about 3 o'clock, wide awake this morning. So, I don't know, hopefully in a couple of days I'll be climatised back to Australian time. But we sort of mentioned it before, Pinberg happened, that was amazing. And then I had my work in Utah, which was fun times. So, and now we're back. Well worth it. It was definitely well worth it. And, you know, this weekend coming up, I'm flying up to Brisbane for the Brisbane Masters. And we'll talk about that later because that's already started the 10 days of Brisbane Masters or the Brisbane Pinball and Arcade Collective at the aircamps. Yeah, I've heard that one person's been cleaning up a foreign invader. We will talk about that. But let's just start with some news. The first one we're going to talk about is American Pinball. So Josh Coogler, we've had him on the show. I've spoken to him a number of times. He's a great guy. So effectively they've been talking about themes because if you remember, there was four themes they were talking about doing or I don't know whether they were doing or people just saw that they'd been trademarked. One of them was Poker Run. There was Valkyries, Sherlock Holmes and one other I can't remember.
Multimorphic
company
Heads Up!game
Stern Pinballcompany
Spooky Pinballcompany
Zytechcompany
Replay Pinballcompany
Martinperson
Joeperson
Jonathanperson
Poker Runproduct
Sherlock Holmesgame
Valkyriesgame
Robin Hoodgame
Brisbane Mastersevent

high · Joe emphasizing pinball has 'never been able to penetrate these spaces'; P3's external LED design and simple gameplay accessibility differentiate it from traditional pinball

  • ?

    product_concern: The Big Lebowski shipping now with quality checks completed; hosts hopeful machines are mechanically sound; acknowledge game carries significant reputation baggage from multi-year production issues

    high · Joe noting two unboxing posts in community; Martin noting quality inspection before air freight; both discussing whether stigma will affect long-term reception

  • $

    market_signal: The Big Lebowski new pricing at $12,500; represents increase from original pre-order pricing; related to manufacturing and settlement costs

    medium · Martin mentioning new pricing; Joe noting this differs from original pricing; context of ARA settlement and manufacturing changeover

  • ?

    product_launch: Stern pinball Kickstarter book project remains in development; 75% complete in redesign phase; layouts taking longer due to material volume for recent machines

    high · Martin reading official Kickstarter update #40; creators stating they are 'behind schedule' but committed to quality; publication timeline remains uncertain

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Dutch Pinball transitioning from ARA to Zytech for manufacturing; prototypes from Zytech have received positive feedback; represents manufacturing capability shift

    medium · Martin noting prototypes made by Zytech; Joe confirming accounts say prototypes were 'very solid'; positive signal for future production quality

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball and Spooky Pinball pursuing controlled, incremental growth vs. ambitious startup strategies; similar to Replay Pinball's approach; contrasts with failed aggressive expansion models

    medium · Martin and Joe discussing importance of starting with limited production runs and scaling gradually; citing examples of companies that failed with overly ambitious launches

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: P3 machines at Dave & Busters changing perception of pinball in casual arcade venues; machines are visually distinctive with external LED light shows; simple gameplay appeals to general audiences

    medium · Joe describing external cabinet light show appeal; describing 'Heads Up' as simple enough for general public comprehension; Asteroids module mentioned as very fun and accessible

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Someone from American Pinball recently expressed genuine excitement about the company's third game in development

    low · Martin noting he spoke to an American Pinball employee recently who was 'very, very excited' but declining to identify the source

    • 3:16
    Yeah, I don't remember what it was. Oh, Robin Hood. Robin Hood was the other one as well. So basically what they've said is they've ruled out Poker Run.
    3:26
    And I remember the time when I was like, oh, what's this about? Is it a card playing game? We already had Walk Poker Tour, but no, it's apparently some travel thing. It's Poker Pokemon. Is it? Yeah. Do you know what Poker Run is?
    3:41
    Yeah, I mean, I don't know, but I mean, I read it and their description of it sounds like kind of like Pokemon, But with poker cards. Go to a tournament, collect a card. Go to another tournament, collect another card. I don't know why you care about those poker cards, but apparently it's a thing. I don't see how you can make that into a pinball machine, but... I don't either. And, you know, we've talked about our good friends in American Pinball, and they just... Look, I thought Houdini was a really good theme. I thought, you know what, you've done really well to find this very well-known theme that translates into a pinball machine. They then tried again with Oktoberfest, which I think wasn't as strong as Houdini, if we're honest. It's just not, right?
    4:31
    Yeah, I mean, I really liked the theming in Houdini. And Oktoberfest is fun. I got to play three or four games on it.
    4:42
    Thursday for kind of the first time and it's fun. Did you find that left ramp difficult? Because that's the biggest complaint is that people can't get up that left ramp. No, not at all. It was actually pretty easy. It's the side ramp that's the... Yeah, the side ramp isn't even possible. But I mean, once you figure out how to use the magnet and getting the magnet to grab it and then have an idea on where it is in the flipper, When I was trying for it, I was able to hit it via the magnet on the fly, probably not, but with the magnet I was able to hit it a couple times. Of course, both times the lock wasn't lit. Although, and actually that's not true. One time I did hit it and apparently those balls hold over from game to game and there were already two in there. So I started multiball with one shot. It was great. No, I've played Houdini, no, sorry, Houdini, Oktoberfest quite a lot. And I think, like in the space of maybe a three-hour stream, I think I got it up that side ramp maybe two or three times. So I'm obviously not the world's best player, but I think you need to have that shot a bit more accessible. Anyway, the point of this article is that they're saying Poker Run is not going to happen. So I'm okay with that because I don't get that at all.
    5:58
    Yeah, me neither. No, and I don't, I don't know. The other themes though I could definitely see. Yeah, but basically what they're saying is that it's more likely to be Sherlock Holmes. Now I get Sherlock Holmes, I talked about this previously in that I think that that's kind of a cool theme. I think you can do artistically a lot of good stuff with that. But I don't know whether it makes for a very exciting game. Well, I mean, if you figure, I mean, more or less, you could kind of do what, like, whodunit. Whodunit. But with Sherlock Holmes, and you're Sherlock Holmes, and you're trying to figure out who did all these crimes. So, I mean, I could see it happening. Obviously, like any of these themes, it's just about how well integrated it is and how the decisions they make with how the rules are going to work. I mean, like, I could see Robin Hood working too, but that's going to be a very narrow, like, target. Ha, no pun. Robin Hood, yeah. It's going to be hard to hit the mark on that one, Martin, you see. Oh, even better. I know. Have you got a third one? Nah, that's it. Because if they don't hit the mark, they're really going to be stealing your money.
    7:07
    There you go, there's your third one. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, that is really good. That one, I could see it, but you'd have to really get it right for it to feel good. Valkyrie, I mean, Viking themes is really big, at least it certainly is in board games. So I could see a Viking theme, like you're just battling around and killing, dying, going to Valhalla, blah, blah, blah.
    7:32
    I could see that one too. I think that's the one that I feel you could make a bit epic, you know? Oh yeah, that could be. Yeah, but people would still scratch their head and go, Valkyrie? What? I don't get it. If this was, you know, pre-2000s, you would do it because back then you just had themes that it didn't really matter. You didn't need to have a license. You could still sell a lot of units. Particularly the, you know, 80s, they just had crazy themes that just didn't matter. So, I don't know, these days I still, I don't know, I still don't understand their business model and whether they do need a proper license instead of one of these very well-known but not, well, what they've said is not necessarily what is hot and popular at the moment. Yeah, really what's going on here and what they're saying and what their business model is is that they're not paying for licenses.
    8:36
    They've decided that it's too expensive and they're going with eminent domain licenses that are out there that are free to use for everybody, which would be a great model and would be way more prevalent now if those laws didn't get completely effed up. And the fact that stuff hasn't entered eminent domain in 20, 30, 40 years because of Disney and them completely rigging the system for themselves. How does that happen? What do you mean by that? So like back, I can't remember the timing of it, but back when, so it used to be like after, I want to say like 30 years or something like that, things would go into the eminent domain so that everyone can use it. But when it became – when it came time for Mickey and other things that belonged to Disney to go into Eminent Domain, they went in and protested the law and got the law changed to extend it many decades past what it's supposed to be. So because of that law, there's literally been like a 50-year or a really long time since anything has entered eminent domain because Disney changed the laws so that they wouldn't lose Mickey.
    9:46
    And because of that, it affected everybody. So there's been this massive hole of properties that everyone should be able to use at this point, but because of the greed of Disney, it hasn't happened. And I think that that's coming up within the next 10 years, and they're thinking that maybe it's not going to get extended again. But one of the eminent domain ones that gets used a ton, a massive ton of board gaming, and I'm surprised that no one's thought to do a Cthulhu-themed pinball machine, which I think would be really cool. Cthulhu? No. Lovecraft? No. Is that the one that's spelt C-T-H-U-L-U or something? Yeah, it's Lovecraft, which is actually a New England mythology thing of elder gods. It's a cool thing for monsters and stuff like that. That gets used in a lot of different properties because it is eminent domain, but it hasn't made its way to Pimball, which I think would be cool. You tend to be investigators trying to solve things to stop the elder god from coming. Did you ever see, what was it called, The Cabin in the Woods, that movie? No. Does that surprise you? No. I guess not. That's very much, that's more or less ripping off the IP without having to make it the IP. Okay. Yeah, it's cool. Well, if you think about, you know, Gottlieb, back in, I was going to say back in the day, But towards the end of Gottlieb, they were doing a lot of licenses that were, they weren't licenses, they were similar, if that makes sense.
    11:29
    Yeah, Raven. Well, yeah, Raven, which was kind of like a Rambo type thing. What was the other one? There was Hollywood Heat, which I think was kind of like, was meant to be like a Miami Vice type thing. I think there's been quite a few of those kinds of games. Like if you remember back, I don't even know when it came out, but an old EM called Beat Time, which was effectively a Beatles ripoff. In fact, the name of the band on it was The Bootles. Like, come on, you're not even trying to hide your intentions there. Well, wasn't there a big thing with 8-Ball? Like that clearly was the Fonz and then there was a lawsuit or something about that they had to change something so that it wasn't so obvious.
    12:15
    Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what you could do is if you do a theme that's kind of similar to something that's licensed, but somehow you change it enough. I don't know. I think it's probably different days now, and I think people would probably sue you a lot more than they do. Yeah, it'd be a lot harder to get away with that stuff now. Yeah.
    12:37
    Anyway. So, anyway. Anyway, American Pinball, just get on with it. I will say that I did speak to somebody, I'm not going to name who it was, I did speak to somebody recently from American Pinball who is very, very excited about their third game. So, I don't know what that means, but I would hope so too. As if they're not excited about their own game. That's a problem. You've got a real problem if someone's like, yeah, third game's coming, I'm not fussed. So, whatever happens, happens. You know, yeah. So, again, I'm sort of one of the things, I just want to back the little guy, the people that are really trying to make a mark. Come on, American Pinball, make it happen. Let's do it. You can do it. Speaking of little guys and trying to make a mark, hmm, talk about Dutch Pinball. So, yeah. Yeah, a bit of an update there. You know, we had Martin and Jonathan from Pinball News, you know, they sort of talked about some information that they had about the Dutch Pinball and ARA court case, I guess. Yes, so if you do listen to the Pinball News and Pinball Magazine podcast, they do talk about it. And effectively, I've just taken a couple of things out that Jonathan says, the court case where Dutch Pinball was very convinced they had a very strong case against IRA. I know some details which I'm not able to share, but what it eventually came down to was, I think the judge ordered them three or four times to try to reach a settlement because they weren't going to like what was going to happen when the court ruled. And Martin says, the basis of the agreement, as I understand it, a certain sum of money will be paid to ARA in return for the completed games or the semi-completed games that will transfer to Dutch Pinball along with all the existing parts of future games. And that's the end of dealings that ARA and Dutch Pinball have together. So, because I think people were sort of speculating what was going to happen, how they were going to move forward and whether, you know, they would settle with ARA and ARA would continue to do their machines. Clearly not. So I think what we're hearing is the machines that have been done are going to be released, done. ARA and Dutch Pinball will never speak again. And Zytech, whoever it was, you know, the letter folding company, they're the ones that are now going to probably do the rest of the machines. So does it mean people are going to get their big Lebowskis? I would say based on that, that's probably the most likely I've heard that people are going to get their machines.
    15:26
    I think that if you want to get new ones now, I think you have to pay $12,500, which is not what they were originally. Yeah, well, and also, I mean, I've seen at least two posts in the various pinball places of people unboxing their Lebowskis. So I think that they're already shipping. Yeah.
    15:48
    Unless those two posts were just randomly two people were sitting on Lebowski's this entire time and just opened them. So it seems that they must be shipping them already. And I know they mentioned that more or less they've been sitting in boxes for years, so they opened them all, checked them, put them back in the boxes, and then sent them. And they said that they were air freighting them. So considering when this came out, people could already have their games.
    16:15
    That's it. So I don't know. No, hopefully they're good. I'm rooting for the game at least. Yeah, well, I know we both played it and it's an enjoyable, fun game. It doesn't set the world on fire, but it's a good, solid game.
    16:32
    For what it was and for the first title released of a boutique company, it is the best game that's ever been made. as far as the first game of a startup.
    16:44
    Wizard of Oz? Wizard of Oz had tons of issues from the beginning, though. I know. Whereas, I don't remember there being any issues for... Hold on a second. Wizard of Oz had tons of issues.
    17:00
    Yes, but the company had issues. I don't think that the game itself, though, as far as I know, I don't remember... Did the game have any issues? I thought that the original ones that were made were mechanically sound and fine, but I could just be out of the loop. Yeah, I think they were fine. No, I know. But the thing of it is, you've just now got this stigma associated with this game. Like, it's the big Lebowski, which is, you know, the big Lebowski that had all these problems. Do you think people care enough to always be thinking about the fact that this machine has had its history? It's kind of like Magic Girl, right? You know, when and if, you know, the newly remade and done Magic Girls are out there, are people going to forget about the history that's happened?
    17:46
    I think so, because, well, I guess it's hard to know with Magic Girl because you don't know what the final working thing is going to be. But I mean, the way that game looks and the way that art is coveted in the pinball community, I think everyone's going to forget everything about Magic Girl when that comes out again. I hope so. But if you consider the way that Magic Girl, when you're talking about Lebowski, people still covet Magic Girl and look at what it is. It's not even a game and it still demands a huge price tag on it and people still want the thing. So it's like if that's a coffee table and then you have Lebowski, which is an actual working game and still an actual theme that people have obsessions over, I think it should still be fine. As long as the games that are going sent are working and they're good and there's nothing wrong with them, I think the title will be fine. And I think that if they make more, it'll end up being fine. That completely changes if the games that are going out are going to have issues.
    18:52
    I mean, I hope not. And then hopefully they find a better manufacturer to make their games. I don't know. Maybe they should get in contact with HomePin and be like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if you made a good game? We have one. Do you want to make it for us?
    19:10
    Not with all the problems that they've had getting their first game out. I mean, that was just a nightmare for them. Thinking that it was going to be easy to manufacture in China, it turned out. It's not so easy. No. Even harder to actually make a good game. But from what I heard, they did get a couple of prototypes made up by Zytec. It's been so long since I'm speaking, I'm assuming it is Zytec, X-Y-T-E-C-H.
    19:38
    And from all accounts, people said that the prototypes were very solid. So, you know, maybe they've worked it out. Positive news for the future. Yeah, let's hope. I just want people to get their machines. Yeah, maybe DeepRoot will buy it. Well, I mean, I think people were sort of saying that, that maybe they should. But I think the problem was Dutch Pinball.
    20:06
    Well, I guess we've got history of this where they could have ages ago given up the business to ARA to make these machines happen. And they said, no, they don't want to give up the company. So it's not even if DeepRoot, you know, you said we will buy the IP from you. They just wouldn't want to do it because they want to be a pinball company. That's their goal in life. Yeah, and I think ultimately that that's why I bet you that people probably went to them and tried to get the game from them, which I'm sure probably happened with Alien 2 for Highway, and they probably just didn't want to sell. Well, because I don't see why there wouldn't be interest into those games considering how popular that they are. But yeah, it didn't sound like they were willing to let go of their baby, which is fine. But if the baby dies, maybe you should have.
    21:03
    Yeah, I get that. But I kind of think if I was in their situation and I was all about wanting to become a pinball manufacturer, and I'm just going to put it out there, we all secretly would love that to happen. And wouldn't you? Wouldn't you love to be able to just, that is your source of income, your living is manufacturing Pinball machines? I think we'd all love that. Oh, absolutely. So if you're at that crossroads where they say, well, we can get this one machine out, but now you don't have a company, you would look at that and say, as much as it's kind of cool to be able to get this game complete and get out there, I get nothing from that. I get no satisfaction except for people getting machines in their hands. I know that sounds a bit selfish, but I could imagine that's the thinking of people saying, not interested because the goal here is for me to be in control. Yeah, that makes sense. But I think that's what happened with Jersey Jack, right? You know, when Wizard of Oz came out and it nearly sent the company under, he went, well, someone bail me out and he doesn't own the company, but he's still part of the company. But, you know, I think it takes, I don't know, a bit of courage to be able to do that. He's still in the industry and he's still having a good time. He just doesn't own the company. Yeah, and, you know, that's what it, if that's what you're looking for and if that's what your goal is, that definitely makes sense. And if you think you've learned from, you know, the mistakes you've made and you can move forward, then by all means. Hopefully all the lessons have been learned and there will be no more big mistakes going forward and we can have another pinball in the company. That would be nice. Yep. And so going back to American pinball, right? You know, at least they're alive. If you think about all these companies that have tried and failed, you know, at least you've got some companies that are, you know, doing it a probably a less ambitious way. So Spooky I put Spooky into that category as well They you know weren going for 5 units They just start it off with a couple of hundred units make sure that that works and then gradually you know increase and become a bigger manufacturer That's the better way of doing it rather than being a rock star from day one. Yeah, that's, you know, it's kind of very much like the chosen path of, like, replay when it comes to how they're going to grow and just making sure that they grow incrementally and controlled to make sure that nothing bad goes wrong. That's exactly right. Anyway, let's talk about the Stern book because we haven't had an update on that for some time. And I did get my Kickstarter email with an update. I think it's the number 40 update.
    23:55
    So I don't know if anyone really cares, but I think it's still funny to talk about the fact that the book is still being developed. But let's read it out. Hello, Kickstarter backers. That's nice. We have another quick update to let you know that we're three quarters of the way through the redesign. Last time we posted, we were halfway through and admittedly we're a little behind. Really? No. Where we hope to be today. But it isn't because we're slacking. It's because with many of these more recent machines, we have so much material and we're trying to squeeze that as much as we can to the layouts. I'm going to show a picture of Simpsons People Party with the new layout. It says, we want to make this book as jam-packed as we possibly can, but that means some of the layouts are taking twice as long. We are closer than ever to the finish line, and we can't wait to get this thing to the printer. Thank you for all of your support and patience. We're almost there.
    24:45
    Is anyone making money from this now? Like, if you think about how much effort has gone into this and how much these books cost, which, you know, they're a couple hundred dollars US, which is, you know, still a bit of money. I don't think anyone's making any money from this. In fact, they probably sunk a lot of money into this.
    25:04
    Probably. I mean, it's hard to know because you don't know what the, as far as quantity and agreements and I don't know. I didn't, I don't remember like how much this Kickstarter made, but I imagine it's, yeah, it's been a shit show this entire time. It really has. There's nothing more than saying it should just be a shit show. So, I don't know. They're almost there. We might get our book. What I love about this is I will get my book, I'll flick it once, stick it on the coffee table and never look at it again. So there's that. Money well spent. It is money well spent.
    25:37
    So one of the big things that I thought was very cool this week that came out in the news was that Dave and Busters has now got Pinball machines. And they're actually the P3 multimorphic machines. And what I wanted to ask you, if you can, for all the international listeners, meaning the couple of people that are outside the US, What is Dave & Buster's and why is this important for them to have pinball machines? Alright, so Dave & Buster's is more or less kind of like an adult playland, pretty much. It's like, it's a bar, it's a restaurant, and then it's an arcade that has a lot of, you know, all your stereotypical stuff in there. R also has ticket games, but it does tend to lean more towards the adult side than tickets. There is some redemption stuff there, but they have shooter games and all sorts of different things. They also have game show games and poker games and tons of stuff.
    26:44
    It's probably the biggest high-end arcade chain in the United States, I think. I don't know of another chain that does what they do. I didn't like pensions. Yeah, so they have, I think they also have pool tables and some other stuff like that. I mean, the place is huge. It's like maybe the size of some small movie theaters. So it's a very big, some of them are two floors. But yeah, this is, I think, a huge deal. Because Pinball, it has never been able to penetrate these spaces. And when I saw the video that they posted of what these machines look like and what they're going to do, assuming that nothing goes bad mechanically, it seems like people should eat these things up. I mean, they catch your eye, the light show on the outside of the cabinets are very catchy, so they're certainly going to stand out and people are going to look at them like the other various games that are there that are just these giant carnival rides. for lights to get said, come play me! So it accomplishes that, and it seems I haven't seen gameplay of it, but I've read the description of what this specific game module is, and it seems like it's simple enough for people to grasp. What I'm not sure of, it's the multi-morphic system, but is it a specific game for Dave & Buster's, or they've just got their standard unit in there? It seems like it's a special game because they announced this game with this announcement. So it's called Heads Up, and it's specifically built for two of them to be linked a la NBA. And from the description, it sounded like pretty much it's there's gems on the playfield that you can roll over. They give you points, and then there's scoops. The scoops and the holes and stuff like that transport balls to the other player, And then they get more balls. And then, you know, so you're trading balls back and forth between each other and trying to hit these gems to get points. And it seems cool. I don't necessarily, I didn't, I haven't seen, like, playfield pictures. I don't know what top part they're using. I don't know if they're just, like, using, like, what is the ship game top or maybe one of the other tops. Oh, something Lagoon, Cannon Lagoon. Yeah, I don't know if they're using that for the top, but I know that in the description it's like hit gems for points, and then it's a timed thing, and you're playing against the other player, and whoever has the most points wins, and then whenever you, and holes and stuff, transport a ball to the other player. So say if you start with X amount of balls, or one ball, you put it in one thing, and then you'll keep your ball, and then another ball will pop out on the other game, and vice versa. So it seems cool. It seems simple enough. It seems just frenzy enough for the general public to just play it and know what the hell's going on. So hopefully it does well, because if this can be like the entry drug to get Dave and Busters to consider putting these in their places, then it can only go up from here. So my other question is, why is it after all these years, because I know that people have been trying to get Pinball machines into these venues, why is it that you think P3 were able to do it? Is it because the look of the machine with all the lights and the LEDs, like the way it presents the machine with the light show just on the external cabinet looks amazing. Do you think it's because this machine more looks like all the other type of redemption games that you can see at the moment? Yeah, I think that in a roundabout way, I think that this system was built for this. It's like this is where you can be the slaves of both masters, where you can have a game in there that's good for the home market, and then you can have a game in the same exact system that's good that can be a redemption game. Whereas the other people haven't really figured out how to have both of those be certainly not in the same game. And none of the other manufacturers seem to be willing to make a very dumbed down game like that that's more a redemption game than actual, you know. And honestly, I mean, more of just like a Pigeon Bat type simplicity of here's ball, flip it, go somewhere, get something. Even just as a ticket game that uses flippers, you know, stuff like that. So, I mean, this is the first game or the first system that has been able to, has, you know, the structure in place to be able to just be like, we can use the same system and we can put in the most simple, fun layout type thing. I mean, if you think about the things that they could do with that playfield, I mean, like they have those blocks that can come up. Like you could make, almost make like a breakout game with that. And there's literally just those blocks are there. And then, you know, you can hit those and then eventually, you know, you get rid of all the blocks and they open up and they break down and then you can shoot stuff behind them. I mean, they could do super simple arcade type things or Space Invaders. You could play Space Invaders on the thing, too. Well, you know, they've got one that's effectively an Asteroids game, and that is very, very cool. It's fun to play. Oh, they do? Yeah, I haven't. Unfortunately, I've only played Lexi. Right. It was one of the ones that, it came as standard, effectively it's software, because those blocks that you were talking about, they all raised up and they stay permanently, so effectively you've just now got this enclosed playfield down the bottom, and as the ball goes over asteroids, it, you know, the big one then splits into two, and then they split and split and split. So, it's effectively asteroids, and it is so much fun. Yeah, and of all the ones that they've, like, I'm sure I haven't played it, but I've heard good things, like kart racing would do good. They could then, you know, they could slowly introduce more ones. If these two crush and these do great and they earn well, they could put a third one next to it and it could be the ship one. And then if that does well, okay, then we could put another two next to it that do the kart racing. Or they develop another game that they can put in there. Or you can, you know, it's endless with where this could go and how good this could be for pinball. And if the system does well and it proves that people enjoy this, well then you can have this simple, say you have those four games, now you can put a normal machine next to it. And then maybe, you know, at least there's like this progression of, you know, difficulty where you get these little simple games and then as they move up they can, you know, and then eventually at the end of the road there's this complicated game that is full-blown pinball that if you want to jump into that. But you have the other options if you want, and they're like introductions.
    33:46
    And then you eventually, hopefully this eventually grows into an entire row of pinball in these places, which I think is, I'm sure, the goal that they're trying to go for and would be awesome, because we have multiple Dave and Busters around here, but there's no pinball in them.
    34:01
    And I think if this does well there, hopefully, like they said in the announcement, it's like, you know, go play it, make it a success, and then start calling your Dave and Busters and say that you want Pimball in your place and we'll see. Well, there you go. So actually, Jerry did actually reach out and basically said, obviously, we want to get the word out there. There were good business reasons why Dave & Buster's removed Pimball from their lineups years ago. But with recent advancements in Pimball technology and with new gameplay features, Pimball has a growing audience again. So we need to convince Dave & Buster's they need to take advantage of the new tech and the new system. So you can actually go to, I think it's, you know, Daveandbusters.com slash contact, send them a note saying we want pinball in our Dave and Busters because right now it's only in at the Austin location in Texas.
    34:52
    And we just need to get the word out there. But the best word you can do is actually to go and actually play the game. Put some money through it, swipe your card, whatever it is, because I don't know whether it's like the family or FECs or the family entertainment centres that we've got here where you can pay per game or effectively you get an hour or two hours of unlimited gaming.
    35:18
    Go and play them, but also say to Dave & Busters, hey, we've heard you've got one in Austin. Can you have one in my local Dave & Buster's because pinball is rad? I don't know. People are still saying rad? I'm assuming they are.
    35:31
    Rad, yeah. Not since Radical. That was the last time I said Rad. Right, okay. Sure, sure, sure. Good job.
    35:37
    But I mean, yeah, it's just, it's, and this is where, you know, where people need to put up or shut up when it comes to complaining that pinball is not big and pinball is not in these places. In Texas, if you live near this place and you're into pinball, you need to go play these games and you need to make sure that there's success. And while you're there, let them know how happy you are that they're there and that you wish there were more. And this is the time for the pinball community to try and do some groundwork and try and get this happening. Because if we can – this is a huge opportunity that if we can convince them – because if Dave & Buster's does it, then it's just going to be a trickle-down effect across the industry where you'll start seeing the more – and bowling alleys and all these places that are full of Josh Sharp games and no pinball. And we could hopefully try and change that. And this is the opportunity because if nobody plays them in Austin and it fails there, then they're probably never going to try it again. I don't know what they had to do to get this test to happen in the first place, but good on them.
    36:48
    Absolutely good on them for paving the way, hopefully, for more. So, you know, just a bit of a side note. Speaking of Josh Sharpe games, now I know I'm going to be talking about a competitor of his, but what Raw Thrills does is obviously great arcade games, but there's been a theme recently where they've taken old themes and they've made giant versions of them. So I think there's a giant Pac-Man and then there's a giant Space Invaders. Have you seen those ones that Raw Thrills did? Yep. They're super popular. Did you see the next giant game that came out that was at Replay FX? I didn't. Is it Pinball? Is it a giant Pinball? It should be a giant Pinball. No, it was Centipede. Really? Do you remember the game Centipede? There was a giant version of it and it looked fun. Anyway, I just wanted to call that out because it just looked awesome. That was the thing about ReplayFX. For those people that next year might not get a ticket to ReplayFX, just go anywhere. Anyway, there's so much to do there besides Pinberg. and they've just got this whole section of rhythm action games which I just freaking love. I have to make a point to actually go look at that stuff again. I was just so pinballing. I was just pinballing all day and playing all the games that I just completely never even looked at that. The only thing that we stopped and walked by I think me and Leslie looked at is that they had these pods.
    38:13
    There were four of them. One of them was broken. But you go inside the pod and then the screen surrounds you completely and the whole thing moves. And we were like, wow, that looks amazing. And then we're like, we're not going to wait to be able to play this. But we wanted to really bad. I've seen those particular, you know, the actual, not necessarily that game, but that machine. So almost like, you know, that form factor where you go in and you've got this sphere in front of you, I guess, that, you know, has the wraparound screen. I've played like an on-rails sort of shooting game that was like that. This one was more like a MechWarrior type game. Anyway, I remember those when I was younger.
    38:57
    So a couple of extra things. So PinQuest has now officially launched in the US. And this is another one of these go and make it happen so it gets bigger. Now, PinQuest effectively is this system. You go on your mobile phone, you probably download an app, and you effectively go to locations, and there's particular quests or objectives that you're trying to meet at each of these locations, almost like a bit of poker run for pinball.
    39:30
    It's all gone full circle. It does go full circle. Anyway, it's been launched in the US. I know that there's been a lot of effort that's gone into not just developing the software and how it all works, but also getting locations signed up for this as well. So I'm just saying to everybody that has a location that supports Pinquest, go and play, go and sign up because the more successful you are over there, the more successful it's going to be around the world. And I just want to see it because it just sounds amazing. Yeah, it's a really cool concept. I hope it works. Because it's, again, it brings people to locations. You're going for goals and trying to win prizes and stuff like that. So it just seems like something that should do great. It should be. There's probably only two caveats to it. It needs to be simple for people to work out how to do it. And it also needs to be easy for the actual locations themselves to get involved and get something out of doing it. I mean, the premise of it is that it's going to bring people to your location. because they'll actually be achieving certain things at certain times. So, anyway, I'm very excited by it. Yeah, I can't wait for it to hopefully come local in some form or another.
    40:49
    So, Joe. Marty. Social Media Watch. Baby! Deaders! Social media watch. Now, Joe, social media is an amazing thing, don't you think? No.
    41:13
    It can be good and bad in equal amounts. It depends on you as an individual how you like to use social media, I guess. And I say that because I'm a lurker. I have been a lurker for many years. So even like if you think about Pinberg that just happened, there were a lot of pictures of me at Pinberg. However, I don't think I actually put any of those up myself. People tag me and that's fine. I'm not an avid Facebooker or Twitter or Instagram. I'm just not active. I read it, I absorb it, but I'm not somebody that actively puts up articles. People are probably going, boo, you know, how boring is that? Anyway, so we're going to focus this week on some positive social media stories because it's been an absolute crap show of stuff on social media. Just drama this week on social media. And the summary for me is we had one of the best, if not the best, pinball shows slash tournaments of the year. It was better than last year. It's probably the best pinball that's ever happened and the best replay effects that's happened. And within hours of it finishing, people weren't celebrating how great Pimberg was. They were celebrating other shit. And I know people wanted to get their point out, and that's great. But let's not lose sight of the fact that you've just had something amazing. Give it time to celebrate and then, you know, start your other stuff. What do you think, Joe? I'm sort of dancing around the topic, but there it is. Yeah, it just kind of took the whole focus of the thing and put it in a negative light and that was the only thing that was being talked about. I don't know at what point we stopped doing this to ourselves. I think that at some stage we've probably just got to stop and say, is this good for the hobby or not? Is my desire to get my point across worth more than the positivity of the pinball community? And there's this crossroads I think people have got to look at and say, maybe I'll just deal with this privately than have to go out and have jury by social media. Yeah, it just seems like it's never ending now. It's always something. Something is always new. Yeah, I think this week has probably been the worst we've had, is what I'm just going to say. And a lot of people just sort of go, oh, come on, guys. Can we just flip this around and turn it into something positive? Make your point. I get it. But let's do positive. And so on that, let's talk about some amazing social media news items that came up.
    44:34
    He was on an article, like a video, like a TV news piece from CBS. And, you know, I've seen a number of these sort of, you know, current affairs type good news stories about Pinball in the past. I don't know whether you saw it, but this was one of the best ones I think I've ever seen. I think it's really interesting that, I mean, we are all special people in this Pinball hobby. It's a bit of a bubble. And there's a fine line between, kind of like Special When Lit, the movie that came out where some people were saying that, oh, you know, they're just really, it's a good documentary on Pinball. And other people are saying, I think they're taking the piss out of us. And so I think with a lot of these articles, it's very, it is a fine line between them being really pleased for you and making fun of you. And, you know, when Ryan was on Good Weekend, you could see that borderline was there. They were sort of, you know, really excited that he had this collection, but were also kind of like, and I think, you know, BT right at the end was like, you know, you're a bit of a weirdo. So they're always at the front line. This one, this article with Ron Hallett was, I think the angle of it was, this is actually really exciting and really good. And the person that was interviewing him and playing as well was really, really into it. And that for me is the reason why this has been one of the best articles that I've seen. And I will link that in the show notes. No it always good to hear and see like those types of articles because it seems like all of the articles and video like you mentioned It just kind of them mocking or making fun of us in a very like overt side you know backside compliments And it's like, oh, yeah, they'll play the Pimball Wizard and be like, look at this guy. You know, it's just like, I'm glad there's a good one that's more positive. Well, it is. I mean, it still is. And a lot of these things are still like, this is such a niche thing and people can't believe that Pinball is still a thing. So they are highlighting it in a, did you know that people have got 30 machines in their collection? That's kind of a bit different. But that's because Pinball just isn't mainstream. It just isn't at the moment. And I don't know whether it ever will be again. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we'll see if it ever gets that way or not, but it's just like the way that even like the even though it's just the way that they they'll call you a pinball wizard or be like, are you a pinball wizard? Oh my god, if I had a dollar.
    47:27
    It's also because I mean that that apparently is the only thing that people think of pinball wise in that movie and it's kind of even in that movie in the play it's kind of like a joke thing. So it's like, what can you do? Well, good for Ron, because that's awesome. Good for Ron. Absolutely. He came out looking really good. So well done, Ron. The other article was titled, How Pinball Forced Me to Look Up From My Phone. And effectively, it's just about a new arcade in St. Petersburg called the Pinball Museum, I think it is. The Pinball Arcade Museum, maybe? Pinball Museum Arcade. Yeah, that's the one. And I'll link that as well. Again, it's a really good article sort of told in the first person view of, you know, the history of somebody playing pinball when they were young and now sort of juxtaposed against this new location that's opened up. Again, just another well-written article that I think does well to promote not just pinball but pinball players. This one in particular doesn't take that necessarily that pinball is really funny. This is kind of just very cool, bit of history, bit of today, and it's a great article. Yeah, and that's in the picture. I see that there's a hurricane, which I got to play for the first time at replay. Not a good game. And then next to it is Viper Night Driving. Don't even know what that is. I've never seen that before. Really? Oh, it's a Sega game. That's the one that's actually got the glow balls in it. Oh, wow. I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah, so it's got sort of black lights in it. It's a terrible game. That looks like it's part of the showcase. I can hear you typing in the background, you're looking it up. Yep, that's right, you bet your ass I am.
    49:25
    Is it part of the showcase games? I don't know. It looks like it's part of the showcase. It's the one with the rounded back glass, so that was like X-Files.
    49:34
    Because there's really one good game in that whole thing. Oh yeah, Jurassic Park Lost World, that's the good one, isn't it?
    49:43
    No. No, no, because that is a terrible game. Well, it's actually not terrible. Just those Sega games just had overly simplified rules and just everything was very linear. I think there's one good game and, well, there's one really good game and a good game. What do you think the best of that series is?
    50:08
    Star Wars? I wonder if you played it. No. No, that one's not good at all. Godzilla. Godzilla, outside of it being a terrible peeing on my childhood theme, the game itself is fun. Yeah, it doesn't get a lot of good press, but I think you're right. I think it's one of the better ones of the era, and I know Keith Elwin is a big fan of it, probably because he knows how to blow it up all the time. And then the other one that's pretty good is Starship Troopers. Except for that little flipper. I just don't like it. You know, it's cool because I played it, there was one for Pinmasters, and it's cool the things you can do with it. Like, out of the scoop feed, you can drop catch with the little flipper to a trap, which is pretty cool. And then, I mean, mainly that's what I was using it for, is doing various different flipper things with it to use that to drop catch with to get control on that flipper. So, I mean, and also, it kind of, which is cool that you can do it, it cramps up your hand like no tomorrow. You're using both of those buttons a lot. But, you know, it's good. And, like, it's got decent rules. I mean, the other ones are pretty bad. But, I mean, those two are pretty good. In a sea of absolute garbage, those two stand out very nicely. Okay. Yeah, but this does look really weird. It looks like it has Penn Stadiums on it, almost, on the sides. Yeah, it kind of looks alright, but it's just not a very exciting game to play, I think is probably what I would say there. Yeah, I'm probably never going to see one, so it doesn't really matter, does it? No, probably not. But it's got a volcano up the middle, or whatever that is, or a tunnel.
    51:58
    Yeah. The Madhouse. Morning Madhouse. Yeah, anyway, there you go. So the other article that came out was a, again, it was a TV news piece or I guess it was a video news piece from New Zealand and a friend of the show. She's also been on the show before, Dani Peck.
    52:18
    It was, I mean, it was really the title of the article was, you know, the number one female player in the world. But really what I like about it, and I know that there was another article that was kind of similar to this, But really what the article was about was a really good father and daughter relationship. So it's really about her, what she likes about pinball and, you know, why she's really excited about pinball. But really what it is, it's about her and David, her father and their relationship and how he got her into pinball, how she's grown up with pinball, how there's this kind of really nice rivalry between the two of them. Again, it's one of those just really good, feel-good pieces that makes us feel good about being in Pinball. So I will link that one in the show notes as well, and I encourage you to watch that because it's just good fun. Yeah, it seems like a cool video, and I've never had a chance to see her or meet her, because she's just never at the tournaments that I happen to be at. Was she at Pimberg? No, she wasn't. So I've been to a couple of more so Indisc. I think they come to Indisc each year.
    53:33
    Anyway, she's lovely. She's just such a nice person. Her brother, Dave Pecker, he's freaking awesome as well. So it's just good. Yeah, the times that they've had you, because you've had them on the podcast, right? Correct. Yeah, Dave a couple of times and Danny once, I think. Yeah, they seem like really good people. Yeah, well, and this is the thing, right, and it's, you know, fitting that it's in social media is that, you know, They're also people that don't just love pinball. They promote pinball. I mean, they open up their house in, I want to say, Pukahoe. I think if I get that wrong, someone will tell me. You know, where they've got hundreds of pinball machines at their house and they invite people from around the world to come into their house each year to play pinball. That is freaking awesome. Yeah, that doesn't happen a lot in other hobbies and different parts of life. So yeah, it's correct. There's tons of cool stuff in Pinball, guys. That's right. Remember, through the sea of shit that we get, there's some really good positive stuff. And I want us to really focus on that because Pinball is awesome. And, you know, I was saying this, like last year was really interesting going to Pinball because I got to meet people for the first time that knew me from the podcast. So, you know, it was a meet and greet. It was meeting you, like I met you for the first time. This was really interesting because coming back the second time, it was almost like a reunion of sorts where I'm meeting people again and talking about what's happened during the year. It's very different than the first time and it just felt really good just walking through and meeting people that I grouped with last year or the podcasters that we speak throughout the year. And then just people that watch me on the stream that I'm meeting for the first time. It's just good stuff, people. Just remember the positivity of pinball.
    55:30
    Yep. There's a good reason why we're all doing this. Correct. Because the vast majority of people are awesome and pinball is awesome. Correct. Drama isn't. Yeah, no. No, it's not.
    55:45
    So, speaking of awesome things, shall we do Joe Tips the Top 100? You bet your ass. Do I? I don't know. If you're feeling risky. Here we go. Whoa. Wonk is number three.
    56:01
    Okay. Hey, Google, pick a number between one and one hundred. Sure. Eighty-eight. Sea Witch.
    56:16
    Ooh. Wow, really? Yep. That's in the top 100, huh? Yep. Interesting. I wonder whether that was always a top 100 or whether... Because of the Beatles? Yeah. Yeah, the Beatles have pushed it up. You can usually see the history of its rankings. I'm just trying to look to see whether that has come up recently. Yeah, I know that there's a whole metagame when it comes to boosting ratings and stuff like that When new versions are coming out, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.
    56:55
    Do you know this game well? I think I kind of have the general idea of what you're supposed to do on this game. I mean, there's none around, really, that have it, so I don't really have a chance to play it. But I mean, as far as I've heard, it's very simplistic of what you're doing. It's more or less, unlike the Beatles, this is a drop target game.
    57:17
    And what you're trying to do is, I believe at the start of the game, one of the drop targets is lit for an X, which increases your bonus X when you complete those drops. And then it'll rotate to one. There's three different banks of targets. And then each of them, when you complete it, will give you the lit light that's on it. Like they can be an X light to increase your bonus X. You can get a loop value or lit bonus value on them. So I think that pretty much what you do is you chase the bonus X, get your bonus X to max. And then I believe every time you get the loop value, I think it increases your spinner, or maybe it's every time you drop a bank it increases the light on your spinner.
    58:17
    So I think that's pretty much the strategy, is get your bonus X to max, which I believe that in some way or another completing those banks also increases your spinner, and then after you've maxed your bonus X, go spinner. because I've heard that you can't really orbit on this thing. Well, I think you're sort of meant to, aren't you, to be able to orbit, but for most machines, they never really sort of stay, the flippers themselves never really stay that strong. Yeah, and the few times I have played it, it rattles in that area, it doesn't have enough to get up, and it just kind of comes back down. In the one tournament that I played recently at Jim's Real House, he had one, and he started the tournament by saying, if you happen to play Sea Witch, you shouldn't use the upper flipper, the upper left flipper. Or if you do, it's on you because it's so strong that when you hit the drop targets, it tends to wedge itself on top of the plastic behind those drop targets. and more or less that if it gets stuck there, you know, it's just you're going to lose the ball or something like that. Or it gets stuck on somewhere and he's like, if it gets stuck there, I can't get the glass off because it'll just roll down. So, you know, it's your own risk for using that flipper. I was like, okay.
    59:40
    So, yeah, do you know much? Was I right about, do you know if I was right about the spinner value? Is that increased by drops? Yeah, no. I really don't know this game all that much, even though I know Ryan's got one. For me, this game is just keep the ball alive. And I did know about the lit target.
    60:02
    I do know that having watched people, and it's just been a while since I've actually watched any sort of streaming of it, I know people sort of go for the spinner, but I think there's also, isn't there a way that you can get the ball back into the shooter lane or something? Yeah, it's under a flipper shot, which gives you, I think, 5k and it advances your bonus like three times.
    60:26
    But also, I mean, you could probably soft plunge that maybe, I don't know, which would probably be a more worthwhile way to enter the playfield. But I don't know how that return is, because I mean, it looks like you're going to go off the top of the sling and if it happens to go right, you're in trouble. If it happens to the left, maybe it doesn't clear the gap. So I don't know if that's a shot really worth going for.
    60:51
    Yeah, it's a simple game. And again, it's one of those ones where because it's constant death, just the game of the era, you've really got to pick your shots and know what you're going for.
    61:03
    Otherwise, you just might rack up the points. Yeah, and I think that the loop value lights on the drops. I think that it lights circles on the loops, which make the loops worth more. And then I believe that if you hit a loop twice in a row, it lights for 2x loop value, which is times however many times you've completed the drops if you light those other values for loops. But at the same time, it's like, well, you get spinner plus loop on the right, and it's a lot easier to hit than the left one. And so it seems you're probably, if you're shooting the right, you're just trying to safely come off the left so you can get back to shooting the right more, seemingly, by looking at it. Yeah, fair enough. I still can't believe this is in the top 100. Well, yeah, and I did look at the history of it, and it's not that it's recently, there was a bit of a jump up, I think the beginning of 2017, sort of, you know, around April, May. So that might have been when people were sort of speculating that Beatles was going to be a rethink. But anyway, I don't think you could really... It's rated higher than Quicksilver and Stargazer. Yeah. Blows my mind.
    62:15
    Quicksilver, I like. The other thing about going to Pimberg is that you get to play a lot of old games as well. And I hadn't played a lot of these old Stearns that, you know, obviously the Slam Talk guys go on about and Ryan's getting a collection of. So I hadn't played Stargazer in, I don't know, 30, 40 years, whenever it first came out. It's alright. Quicksilver is a great game. I got to play Starz that everyone talks about. It's shit. So, anyway, there you go. It's mean. Although another thing that I'm seeing on here is, do you know there's a Pitch and Bat on the Top 100? No. How does that even qualify as a pinball? Slugfest. I'm looking at the pictures of it. Yeah, it's number... I'm backing out.
    63:04
    It's number 83. It's not a pinball machine. It has a bat. It's a pitching bat. What is going on here? What's going on, guys? That don't make sense.
    63:17
    That's not a pinball. See, I don't trust these ratings anymore. Well, I don't think anybody does. So that's why it's all been fun. Imagine that. Imagine if that had come up with Joe Tips Top 100. Slugfest, what are you going to do? You push the button and then you swing. Correct. And that's it. Congratulations. And that is it.
    63:37
    Yeah. Again, I would also agree. I would say that's not really a pinball. No. No, it doesn't even have a flipper button. It has a giant button in the middle.
    63:47
    And then it's not even really... I guess the flipper is kind of a flipper, I guess, but I don't know. That's weird.
    63:54
    Anyway. Well, that's Sea Witch. If you have a C-Witch, sell it and buy a Beatles. Yeah, exactly. So, what happened this week in Pinball, Joe, since we last spoke when we were in the room together? It was fun. I've been very depressed because I'm not in the room with you anymore.
    64:15
    I didn't get to spend the entire weekend with you. I mean, Pinball-wise, really, I haven't done anything. I haven't played, like I mentioned, there was an Oktoberfest knockout tournament on Thursday.
    64:33
    I got home and that was the only time we've played pinball. I came in fourth and Oktoberfest was fun.
    64:42
    I just didn't overly know how to play it, but figured out some stuff on the fly. The Stein system is pretty cool. It's shot okay. The right spinner was really weird and clunky. It seemed every time I went through the spinner, the spinner killed the momentum of the ball, and it never made it up the orbit. But it's cool. It's interesting. The different rules are cool, and the main multiball is cool. I got into the left ramp on the corkscrew. It's cool to see those balls come down that ramp. Yeah, it is very cool. Yeah, and someone else, there's a mode called Looper, and I was playing against another person, Kenny, who had just put up a really big game on and had played it way more than me. And he got into that mode, which is more or less all you're doing is hitting the corster over and over again. It's a ridiculous amount of points. He put up like 500k in the thing. And it wasn't like he was hitting it all the time, but he was hitting it a ton. And I was like, wow, that is worth so much. And I'm like, well, I can do that. I can hit that left ramp easily. And I just hit it a couple times, but it's really hard to hit on the fly multiple times in a row. Because every time you hit it, it resets the timer, and the points keep on going up, so it's like a silly amount of points. But I like the game. It's fun. It shoots cool. I'm glad that there's one on location to play. And, uh, yeah. That's all I did for Pinball this week. I didn't play this weekend and passed on playing today and I don't think, I don't know if there's anything next week either. So, pinball break. Well, I thought I was going to have a pinball break, but I didn't. I ended up in, because I was in Utah as we know, and I was in Ogden, which is about 30-40 minutes north of Salt Lake. I went to Keto's in Salt Lake and went to their tournament on Tuesday night. And it was a format I'd not played before.
    66:42
    And effectively, I think they had maybe 11 or 12 games there. And effectively, you play 10 games head to head. And what happens is they go, right, go. And what you've got to do is you've just got to find another player and say, hey, do you want to play against me? Pick a machine, play a game, and then go back and say who won and who lost. And you do that 10 times and you can't you're trying to not play somebody twice and you're not trying to play a machine twice.
    67:14
    So what's really interesting is it's it was kind of like a weird mix of some formats. It was kind of a bit like Flip Frenzy, but without the time pressure. It was almost a bit speed dating as well because you're meeting people for the first time and it was almost like you had to have this universal signal of putting your hand up with your coin saying, hey, I'm looking for a partner.
    67:40
    And so after the 10 rounds, whoever the top four that have the most wins get into the finals. And guess what? I got into the finals. So I was in the top four. I think I might have come third maybe. I got eight wins out of 10. which was very cool. And then the finals are, it's a group of four and the lowest score gets knocked out and then it's just last man standing. And I got knocked out first round on Black Knight, which I'm just going to say, the more I play that game, the new Stern Black Knight, Sword of Rage, I do not like that game. And also, just to add insult to injury, on my second ball, I drained where I had multiball ready to go with a mode qualified and ready to go. All I had to do was get it in the scoop to start and I would have been fine. When I drained, but when I got to my third ball, mode wasn't qualified and multiball wasn't ready to go. I had to hit that target again to qualify multiball. Are those things that we eat? No, something's wrong there. Because what you're describing is exactly what I did on stage during Pimberg. My first ball, I set up my mode. I had all three blocks ready. Everything was great. Second ball, a good thing to know for you is that that game has no validation. So if you soft plunge and don't touch a switch and you lose the ball, your ball's done. I found that out the hard way. And then my third ball all I had to do same thing I just had to put it in the lock I had to put it in the lock and I had my multi in it and instead I didn and I had to put up like 2 million and I came in last But yeah the behavior you talking about I don know what that is That sounds like either a bug or it has to be a bug if it exactly the way you describe Or it could be in settings where they've got hard locks or something. I don't know. It just really put me off. But anyway, it was not to be. The people that I was playing games were just the loveliest people. I had a great night meeting new people.
    70:03
    And Lee, who gave me a lift in and a lift back, was very cool. And Scott from Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, he came over and I got to meet him. And I then got to go on their podcast as well. So if you guys check out the latest episode of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, I will be on that episode. Lots of fun. And then really now that I'm back, I'm preparing for Flipout, which is the 25th, 27th of October.
    70:36
    And it's going to be just yet another great event. I think last year we might have had, I don't know, maybe 60 Pinball machines, which is, you know, a decent size for events here. and what's actually really interesting I convinced the organiser to do it over three days but only for tournament players so effectively the main show is open on Saturday and Sunday but if you are in the tournament and you've got an all access pass you get to actually go on Friday at midday to start qualifying because it's a herb style and at 7 o'clock on Friday night there'll be a flip frenzy so Look out for those. The show itself is Saturday, Sunday tournament, Friday, Saturday and Sunday for finals. So just now that I'm back, I'm back into planning mode. And speaking of big tournaments, as we said before, the Brisbane Masters is on at the moment.
    71:34
    Ten days of pinball, two to three tournaments per day. And as you mentioned right at the front of this podcast, someone in particular is just ripping it up. Who would that be? Colin Urban. He's just, if he's not coming first, he's coming second, I think is really the summary of that, which I think is freaking awesome, right? I mean, ages ago we were talking about how we just want to make Brisbane Masters more attractive to international players. Well, he's going to get some easy whoppers. So just come on over, guys. Yeah, you're inviting me next, right? Yeah, correct. You're going to invite me over next time? That's right, yeah, okay. Sure. Yeah, definitely. I'm the one paying for it. The only other thing as well, and I don't know the details of it yet, but do you know who Walter Day is? Walter Day. The Twin Galaxies. So Walter Day is the guy, you know, he runs Twin Galaxies and he's got those, you know, the trading cards and all that kind of stuff. The only thing I know about Twin Dark Galaxies is that asshole guy that everyone likes talking about.
    72:50
    The Donkey Kong guy? Yeah. Well, he's in Australia at the moment for Bristol Masters, so they actually had a Kong-off up there and he was in it. I don't know where the finals ended on that, but yeah, he's out for that. Apparently he's actually a really nice guy. Well, I met him and I thought he was a nice guy. Yeah, I have no idea. I just know what everyone says. Yeah, that's all. I know. Whether that's true or not, who knows? It's because he played Donkey Kong and apparently it wasn't a main unit instead of original arcade hardware and he got disqualified and blah, blah, blah. So, anyway. Drama. I know. But the point I'm making is that apparently this year, so there was the Stars of 2019 and these were, like they have these trading cards, you know, where they have people's, you know, photos on the front and then they've got a bit of a bio on the back. and apparently I got one. I wasn't there for the award ceremony to pick it up. But yep, I have a trading card now. Pictures. Need pictures. I need pictures. I've not seen it yet, but I'll be going up this Friday and picking it up. So it's very cool. It was a pity I couldn't be there for the award ceremony. But, you know, anyway, it's kind of cool. You have to be present. Sorry. Otherwise it doesn't count. Pixel didn't happen. So do you know what we haven't done for a while, Joe? We haven't done the mailbag. Do we have a mailbag? We have a mailbag. I'm going to read out some mailbag items for you and you can then have right of reply. So Eric has written in and said, first and foremost, love the podcast. Thanks for doing what you do. Thank you, Eric. He said, I was at Pimberg and played the Star Wars with a disabled post you guys talked about. I played it in a session two on Thursday and the post was not disabled and there was no sign on the machine. During our round, one of the players in my group attempted to go the video mode strategy. Not a bad call in that situation, but was unable to start it as the post was half functional. It would trigger briefly but go right back down. We watched him hit the shot two to three times without success and got the attention of a tech. After the tech witnessed the post not fire properly, we abandoned the game and went to a replacement Stern, Spider-Man, which I got absolutely destroyed on and took a zero. I noticed later in the tournament a sign was up and it remained in the bank. So in short, it doesn't seem as if Papa's intent at the start of the tournament was to disable the post, but they seemed to be okay enough with the post disabled to keep it in the tournament and its original bank. Seems legit. It does seem legit but the problem as you found is that's fine to go okay well we can disable the post but then you were locking people out of modes. Yeah for in that very niche scenario. And I think that really it just it really it affects people who just don't know that that's a thing. I mean, a lot of times, I mean, if you know not to pass on Endor, then it's probably not being, but I mean, most people would tend to do that. And I don't know, maybe if, maybe there is supposed to be some kind of an adjustment in there with the software, but I don't know.
    75:50
    It seems like maybe that the game isn't smart enough to be able to figure that out, at least when we played it. Who knows? So the next email is from Chris. He says, Hi Marty and Joe. So good to hear your thoughts on Jurassic Park. I'm down for LA and super bloody excited. You didn't mention the sound, probably because it was too noisy there, but did you get a chance to take any of it in? The soundtrack from the movie on the Netflix stream seemed pretty awesome. Thought the tilting fallout was grinding on me after a while. So we didn't really touch too much on sound, but I will say that everything gets really tiring very quickly. Yeah, but I think it'll be better when it's done because I think when you get this, it goes on for way longer than it's supposed to, which I think is just early code. Because, like, for instance, if you tilt and then it goes to the next ball for the next player, it's still going.
    76:54
    So I don't think that that's – it'll be more of – it'll go the eh-eh-eh while the screen's up there, and then it'll go away when it's done. Right now it lingers far after the screen has come up.
    77:05
    And it kind of becomes a bit of an echo. Like, it actually – it's almost like it's triggering that sound effect two to three times, so it becomes a bit of an echo of itself. Yeah, exactly. So I think that'll get fixed before it's done. So I don't think you have to necessarily worry about that. But I'll tell you the other thing that happened. The end of ball sequence also went too long. Did you notice that? And you couldn't flip through it? Yeah, I was fine. Well, yeah, I mean, it didn't bother me that much. The only thing that was annoying is that obviously you're trying to get games as fast as possible on there. So it stood out more than in a usual time where you'd probably maybe wait and see and watch the animation. But yeah, I know when I played with you, that was like the very first thing you mentioned was like, this is way too long. They need to fix this.
    77:55
    But I think also because, and maybe to Chris's point, because it was so loud there and you couldn't really hear the audio all that well, it might have actually been saying something or counting down bonus or something. But all it showed was you sort of the first person perspective in the Jeep driving around and nothing happening and you just can't flip through it. But that'll come. That's just code. Yeah, that's probably just that, you know, it goes through the stuff and then it's finishing whatever the sound clip is that you skipped through and then it moves on. So it's probably just a choreography thing that's probably going to get polished. Yeah, it'll come. And last one, last email is from Robbie and he actually had a conversation with an operator about, it's to do with putting games on getting a free game or extra ball.
    78:49
    Basically what he's saying is he went out to an operator and the operator said that, you know, operators effectively don't make a lot of money, which we know that they don't. Operating Pinball is not profitable in most places unless a bar is part of the location.
    79:08
    And it's a distinct point because, you know, if you are a good player and you're going into an arcade to play games and, you know, let's say it's a barcade and you're not buying drinks, if you're really good and the game is set up on free play, what is the venue actually making from you? Maybe $2, $4 if you're constantly getting replays. So the question really was what sort of experience do we have around locations removing the ability to get free games?
    79:42
    Because in Australia, effectively, every place that you go to will always have free games set up. I know that Sunshine Laundromat doesn't when I was there.
    79:52
    What's your experience here, Joe? Obviously, the experience has changed greatly since I started. Yeah, like you mentioned, if a normal stock game is set with replays and stuff like that, I mean, I can play. If I'm playing well, I can play on a credit for four or five games sometimes. So it's... But I have seen times where an extra ball is set instead of a replay. I think I saw that at Rock Fantasy on the Deadpool they had, and I've seen that that's done on some Jersey Jack games.
    80:33
    I mean, it's hard because it's like, if you're trying to, you can't plan to stop people like me without catastrophically affecting everyone else. Like, it's a, people of my skill level, you just can't stop when it comes to, if you want to make it fun for novice players and people who, you know, they just play and they like to get a replay or, you know, they get this cool, you know, something to aim for. I know when I first started, that was my main goal. I didn't really know about wizard modes. I didn't really know about lore, further stuff that was in the game. My main objective was trying to win a replay. That was the game to me when I first started. You know, because it's like, oh, I get to play again for free. Like, that's a thing, in a way, that's a thing you can hold in your hand that's like something you accomplished, like a goal. And then you're like, oh, I get to play again. So it's like, if you got free games, that meant that you were good and that you felt like you accomplished stuff.
    81:52
    I guess that maybe might not necessarily make a lot of sense today, like he's mentioning, Or if maybe you put on extra balls instead, or you get an extra ball, but then the games last.
    82:05
    Because some operators, they look at length of game as their barometer of how hard a game is playing and how hard it should be playing. So if you give replays for extra balls, then you're going to skew those numbers.
    82:20
    I mean, there is no, it comes down to just whatever an operator is going to do what they want to do. And maybe if they get feedback from their customer base. I know that some places I've been, they have matches on, but they're not really on. Like they've just turned the percentage down so that it never happens. Maybe a more fair system is maybe to use replays because it's random, but instead of skill-based. I don't know.
    82:47
    It's a tough thing. I don't know. Yeah, I'd be keen for any sort of operators to write in headtoheadpinball.gmail.com just to talk through why you would go a certain decision, whether you would turn being able to get replays on or off or whether you set your machines up to be really, really tough or whether you want people to enjoy the game. It's such a hard balance when you're wanting the casual player to have a good time, but you want the hardcore player to be challenged, right? Because it's not just, I know Stern have always said that they want to make the games easy to start and then hard to master, whatever it is, right?
    83:29
    But then you've also got the actual physicality of the machines and setting them up harder as well or softer. I don't know. I'd just be curious to know how an operator would determine how they're going to set up a machine to make it attractive for players. People to play and put money through, but then also to put money through the bar as well. And the other question that, you know, Robbie was asking was, you know, what's the etiquette for going into a place and just putting money into a machine and not actually buying a drink or food? Is that something that you would do or do you care about that kind of stuff? Me personally, not really. Because I don't, if there's pinball in a bar, I'm not there for the bar. I'm there for the pinball. I don't drink really when I'm out, so I'm not going to be buying beers or anything like that. But at the same time, I don't think that that really should matter to the operator or the establishment, because it's like the same thing of how they're going to set the game. It's like, well, if they're uber-focused on trying to make it so that it's hard for me, Then it's going to ruin it for the 98% of other people who are just there to have fun and just play. It's going to be super hard on them. It's the same thing. Well, if they're worried about me not buying beer, 95% of the people that are going to be there to play pinball are going to buy beer and drink and do all the various other things. So it's like I think that sometimes, you know, it's it's hard to figure out and sometimes they get confused of like who who their main customer is. Like the main customer is not anyone like me. Like that's not the audience that, you know, most operators pay attention to or care about or should be focused on. Because if you try and set tilts so that I can't move the game, then everyone else is just going to be flipping and tilting. So you've just got to focus on making it fun for the vast majority of your audience, but figuring out what that audience wants, if they want extra balls, or they want matches, or they want replays, and how easy the game should be for them. I mean, it's a question that I don't know that there's really no book on it. It's just kind of you feel it out, you figure out. I mean, like they mentioned, they always say the money spots like three minutes is what a game is supposed to be. So it's like you can just look at the numbers and figure out where it lies and see what you think might that be. I mean, those numbers could be skewed greatly, but you might just have one great player that plays there a lot. And their games could just vastly mess with the numbers.
    86:23
    And I don't know if the audits in Sterns are how deep they go, but I remember when I owned The Hobbit, you could use, which you probably see too, but you could see the audits of balls played per game. and even the extra balls. Knowing that you could look at those and then how long and how many games of them there were played at each levels. I mean, there's something like 10 balls or like 8, 9, 10 balls. And it's like, well, I have kind of an idea where those are from. But if you're looking at those for operation, you kind of want to be focusing on, obviously, 3-ball. And that's where the majority of your focus should be of figuring out what the time is for that segment, unless it's just crazy and just giving them out extra balls like crazy. So I haven't really ever looked at the audits of a Stern to see how they divot out.
    87:20
    I'm sure they tell you how many matches are given out. If you're an operator, do you look to see how many extra balls are going out? Does it give you extra balls average per game? I have no idea how any of that stuff really works. Yeah, it does. I don't know whether people – there will be some people that would be really analyzing that sort of information and adjusting accordingly. I think most people just look at how much money are they earning per week, really, and then adjusting accordingly. I don't know. Yeah, and most of the stuff, it auto-adjusts, right? I mean, the replays, it auto-adjusts based on what people are doing. The extra balls adjust on what people are doing. I mean, it's like Star Trek. If tons of people are getting it, it's going to be more warps. Same thing on Walking Dead. There's going to be more walkers. There's going to be the same thing on Sparky. So it knows what the percentage really should be. And ultimately, if I was an operator, I'd trust Stern's algorithm or whatever they think is right. And when they send a game and they send you a Deadpool new in the box and it doesn't have rubbers in the outlane, you probably should leave them that way. Because they've made the determination. Yeah, they've made a determination for you to hit your three minutes or whatever that those belong off. And then whatever the default settings and where they think the extra ball should be and where those are going to adjust based on play, I think that they have a good idea of how that stuff is supposed to adjust, where the replay's set. And, you know, it doubles so you can't keep on getting it, but if it keeps happening, it keeps on going higher and higher. And, you know, it's more, I mean, replays are such a part of Pinball's history and culture that I guess I'd feel a little sad that if it just went poof and left and it wasn't there anymore. I mean, even now it's still, it's not my goal, but it's a nice thing, you know, to have and get when you do it, you feel like you've accomplished something. Even still, you know, I'm still excited when I get a replay and stuff like that. Or you get a match and you're leaving and you're like, hey, woohoo. Hey, yeah, I'm the same. I like a good replay, but that's from a player's perspective. I'm just curious to know from an operator's perspective what people feel about, you know, whether they make money on that and the venue itself, whether it's worth their while. It's just something I'd really thought about. But anyway, it's been brought up by Robbie. So thank you very much for writing in. Yeah, it's a cool conversation. And also, it's hard to know because it's like, really, it's up to the location. Like if you own the location, you're getting 100% of the money from those machines. Well, you're going to make a lot more money than someone who's doing the 50-50 slot split or 60-40 or anything like that. And then plus all these fees. Because I know that in mattering where you live, there's these licensing fees that you have to pay per month per X machines or you have to pay a licensing fee per machine, which then comes out of it. So it's like I think another part of it is just like the pinball, the laws that are still screwing over pinball when it comes to operating and making money off of pinball. And, you know, it's that's also making it a lot harder to operate and make money off of these things as well. And also the stigma of what people expect to pay for pinball. I mean, people still get salty if they spend a dollar on pinball. It's like with inflation, you should be paying way more than a dollar to play a game of pinball. I know, and I did say there's some arcade that's in the US where it's 50 cents a game. In Australia, it's pretty much $2 a game these days, which is about $1.50 US. And we just expect to pay that because there's no alternatives. There's no competition. So that's what we pay. Yeah. And honestly, probably if you figure games used to be 50 cents or 75 cents like 20, 30 years ago, I mean, it should be around that or more. So it's like, you know, but people still feel that it's that they shouldn't have to pay that much. And it's like, well, I mean, it's, you know, some locations they have like older, like if you're playing like an EM or something like that, Sometimes that'll be on $0.25 or $0.50. If it's on five balls, it's like $0.50 for five balls. Or at solid states, sometimes it'll be $0.75. At the location I mentioned, there's an Evil Knievel at $0.75. There's also a Kongo at $0.75. And then the rest are $1. In all honesty, it's weird because it's actually a pain in the ass to pay $0.75 for a game. Because if you're getting quarters, you always end up by the end, you're like, alright, I want to play, I'm a quarter short. Or, you know, you're always off by something because of that 75 cents game where it's left you in an odd number of quarters that will not let you play a game at the end.
    92:19
    You're just left with quarters. It's weird. Alright, well there you go. Well thanks everybody for listening. Thanks very much Joe, great to catch up with you. in Pittsburgh again and we will do it all again next week. Indeed, glad you made it all well with your journeys and good luck with your own big tournament this weekend. Yeah, thank you very much. We'll hear all about it next week. Thanks guys. See ya.