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The Pinball Show Ep 158: Liquid Deception

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 21m·analyzed·Aug 12, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Stern dominates with speaker lights and code updates; Haggis Pinball collapses amid liquidation and creditor losses.

Summary

The Pinball Show Episode 158 covers Stern Pinball production updates (Jurassic Park, Godzilla 70th, Deadpool), speculation about upcoming cornerstones and Marvel licensing prospects, the launch of Stern's expression speaker lighting system ($199), new code updates across multiple titles, and an extensive discussion of Haggis Pinball's liquidation, which hosts characterize as involving deception despite unclear intent.

Key Claims

  • Jurassic Park Premiums have been made at Stern Factory in Elk Grove over the last couple weeks

    high confidence · Zach Minney, The Pinball Show host, discussing production updates

  • Godzilla 70th anniversary edition and original color premiums are selling very well

    high confidence · Zach Minney noting high sales velocity

  • James Bond Pro, John Wick Pro, Mandalorian Pro and Premium are the last planned runs of 2024 for these titles

    high confidence · Zach Minney referencing Stern's production schedule

  • There are rumors of an August Cornerstone game designed by Jack Danger

    medium confidence · Zach Minney: 'The rumor, and we'll talk about it here in a bit, is a Jack Danger designed game'

  • Stern expression speaker lighting system costs $199 and is compatible with Spike 2 games

    high confidence · Zach Minney discussing newly shipping accessory

  • Keanu Reeves was photographed playing John Wick pinball at Comic-Con

    high confidence · Dennis and Zach discussing celebrity endorsement moment

  • Flippin' Out Pinball lost $61,000 from a business deal with Haggis Pinball

    high confidence · Zach Minney's opening to Haggis segment, referencing his own company's losses

  • Haggis Pinball is in liquidation with equipment being removed from the factory before creditor payouts

    high confidence · Zach Minney describing liquidation process and creditor communications

  • Haggis Pinball customers were promised games that would be made but did not receive products after full payment

    high confidence · Dennis discussing creditor testimony about unfulfilled pre-orders

  • The pinball market currently shows 'general malaise and lack of excitement' despite Jaws being a significant release six to seven months prior

Notable Quotes

  • “Dennis, I need you to slow walk this into the very first day of September. You gave me a win six months ago and I feel like I'm asking for a lot but I'm not because it means Zach would be wrong.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~13:45 — Dennis directly asking Stern to delay August cornerstone announcement to September, acknowledging Zach's prediction accuracy and requesting a reversal

  • “So there you go, Jaws. So we got six months of just more. Yeah. I know, but it's just different now that all these collectors are going in going, okay, well, how many thousand am I going to lose on the next game?”

    Zach Minney @ ~27:30 — Identifying key market concern: collector anxiety about secondary market depreciation affecting purchase decisions

  • “People aren't finishing the games anymore because the code is so deep. So it's like – And it takes them forever to finish these codes. Well, yeah, if you even can.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~28:15 — Highlighting concern that deep ruleset design and extended code development cycles reduce collector interest and retention

  • “It's not like they start at 1.0 and then keep enhancing it. No, no, it's not finished whenever they give it to you, but they know we're going to buy it because that's what we do because it's new and shiny.”

    Zach Minney @ ~42:30 — Criticizing Stern's practice of releasing incomplete games and using code updates as retention mechanism

  • “I think intentions are one thing, but so much has occurred that no one would be able to convince me that Damien and or others, they knew that they were not going to be able to fulfill what they were selling as they were still accepting money.”

    Zach Minney @ ~1:07:00 — Zach's conclusion on Haggis leadership: distinguishing between incompetence and deliberate fraud while acknowledging deception occurred

  • “I don't think you can argue that it's not effective. I've heard it both ways. Some people do actually really appreciate the revamping, watching a game evolve in particular. And others are like this is just a symptom from the video game side of you're releasing product before it's ready.”

    Zach Minney — Balanced take on code update strategy: acknowledging both player appreciation and criticism of unfinished releases

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyZach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonHaggis PinballcompanyDamienpersonJack DangerpersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyAmerican Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Manufacturing and collection market sustainability questioned; diamond coat durability and code depth creating barriers to new game sales

    medium · Zach invoking Pat Lawlor discussion: 'one of the biggest arguably mistakes that we made as an industry was putting diamond coat on these pens because they started to last forever and people just kept them.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis Pinball collapse characterized as involving deception: continued payment acceptance while knowingly unable to fulfill orders, equipment removal before creditor liquidation

    high · Zach Minney: 'I think intentions are one thing, but so much has occurred that no one would be able to convince me that Damien and or others knew that they were not going to be able to fulfill what they were selling as they were still accepting money.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Stern's timely licensing strategy (code updates tied to film releases like Deadpool/Wolverine) creates competitive advantage no other manufacturer can match

    high · Zach: 'they can be more relevant and timely with Insider Connected like never before and more relevant and timely than anybody else can compete with in the entire industry.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Deep ruleset code and extended completion times reducing collector interest; games remain unfished due to difficulty and length

    medium · Dennis: 'People aren't finishing the games anymore because the code is so deep.' 'even then, maybe not. And it's like you've created your own recipe for not being able to sell new games to people.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Marvel licensing remains uncertain; speculation about X-Men 97, Loki, Spider-Verse, and Doctor Doom as potential properties but no confirmation

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.245

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:10
This week on the Pinball Show, Dennis and I give you updates to Stern Pinball's production schedule, what's coming next from the industry leader, new products and new code, the fall of a pinball manufacturer, pure intentions versus insidious deception, Chicago Gaming Company updates, an Alice tease, additional industry news and pinball market trends official pinball show club members get the gold this week as dennis and i build a tentative game release schedule for the following year when will manufacturers release what will they release and how many games are coming out in total it is eye-opening and certainly something that you do not want to miss pinball is a game of skill for some it's a passion and a lifestyle It's time for the Pinball Show.
1:04
It's pinball with personality. Hey everybody, it's the Pinball Show, episode 158 with your host, Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel. Dennis, how are you doing today, my friend? I'm doing pretty good, Zach. You're back from your vacation. You sound raring to go. Oh, not that I didn't get sick. I assure you that. I'm not hacking up stuff. I haven't been in bed the last couple of days. I never worry about why I will never be on one of those floating Novavirus containers. Oh, the most bad stuff. Such a fantastic time on the trip. I feel refreshed, rejuvenated, so much so that I want to jump right into it. You ready to do it? Let's do it, Zach. Stirring pinball in the news this week. We always do it here at the Pinball Show. We give production updates. And over the last couple of weeks, listener, Jurassic Park premiums have been made over at the Stern Factory in Elk Grove? Are they still in Elk Grove? Yes. Yeah. The new place is still kind of near the old place, I think. That's right. We still need to visit up there. You know, I don't know. I never get invited on tours.

medium confidence · Dennis Creasel expressing opinion on current market sentiment

@ ~42:00

  • “they can be more relevant and timely with Insider Connected like never before and more relevant and timely than anybody else can compete with in the entire industry. Is anybody ever going to catch up?”

    Zach Minney @ ~40:45 — Identifying Stern's competitive advantage: ability to tie code updates to movie releases (e.g., Deadpool/Wolverine film synchronization)

  • “I would call this liquidation without any liquid.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~1:05:00 — Darkly humorous characterization of Haggis liquidation as having insufficient assets to cover creditor losses

    • John Wick Pinball
    game
    Jaws Pinballgame
    Deadpool Pinballgame
    Godzilla 70th Pinballgame
    Jurassic Park Pinballgame
    Keanu Reevesperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Doug (Speaker Light Kits)person
    James Bond Pinballgame
    Mandalorian Pinballgame
    Rush Pinballgame

    low · Dennis: 'If it is Marvel-based and it's not X-Men 97, what else could it be?' Discussion includes speculation on multiple Marvel IPs without confirmation.

  • $

    market_signal: Stern planning three cornerstone releases in single year; multiple manufacturers racing to launch nearly simultaneously, creating saturation

    high · Zach: 'We know Stern is gearing up for their third cornerstone release of the year, which just sounds crazy. We know JJP is close. Which one launches first, JJP or Stern?'

  • ?

    community_signal: Keanu Reeves photographed playing John Wick pinball at Comic-Con, providing major celebrity endorsement for Stern

    high · Zach: 'This last couple weeks ago, did you see at Comic-Con a couple weeks ago, Keanu Reeves playing John Wick?' 'Every other manufacturer was so, so jealous when they saw that.'

  • ?

    announcement: Stern expression speaker lighting system officially launched at $199, compatible with Spike 2 games, already coded for John Wick, Jaws, Godzilla, and James Bond

    high · Zach Minney: 'Stern Pinball said, I want people to be able to put on all their Spike 2 games, all their pros, all their premiums, all their LEs, every damn Spike 2 game. We want this immersion.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Games shipped incomplete (v1.0 not final) but manufacturers rely on continued code updates to maintain player engagement and justify purchase

    medium · Zach: 'It's not finished whenever they give it to you, but they know we're going to buy it because that's what we do because it's new and shiny. And then we wait over time and we just keep getting spoon-fed little attractions.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Hosts planning exclusive member-only segment detailing hypothetical 12-month game release schedule (August 2024 - June 2025) for all major manufacturers

    high · Zach: 'So exclusively as a pinball show member, Dennis and I are going to build a game release schedule that will cover August, September, October...'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Rumors of August cornerstone designed by Jack Danger circulating despite no official announcement

    medium · Zach Minney: 'The rumor, and we'll talk about it here in a bit, is a Jack Danger designed game, but we'll have to wait and see.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Growing market malaise and collector hesitation despite strong individual game sales; secondary market depreciation anxiety affecting purchasing decisions

    high · Dennis Creasel: 'I've never felt this. I've never observed this level of general malaise and lack of excitement.' Zach: 'all these collectors are going in going, okay, well, how many thousand am I going to lose on the next game?'

    • 2:10
    Or tours, as we say in the Midwest. That's right. Then we got a lot of Godzilla 70s that were released. A lot of those have shipped. Wow. They're selling very, very well. as well as Deadpool Pros. It's that time of the year. It's Marvel madness right now. The new Deadpool movie. Have you seen it? I have not seen it. Oh, well, you like R-rated superhero movies, and let me tell you, that's the movie for you. If you like fourth-wall-breaking shenanigans, it's very much the movie for you. I'll have to check it out. It was premiering on the Disney Wish Cruise Line ship I was on last week, but, and coincidentally enough... Is that what it's called? I'm sorry. Yes, it is. She went on the Wish.com of cruises. No, I didn't.
    2:57
    I had a balcony, Dennis. A balcony room. Most of them are balconies. But anyway, I think it's a veranda. Maybe this year it's the treasure. How about that? I'm getting your ass on a cruise. Nope. But it was the first time they've aired an R-rated film on a Disney Cruise Line. But I didn't get a chance to check it out. So you didn't even experience it. You want to be at the opening of an amusement park to be the first, but you won't be the first for an R-rated Disney movie on a cruise? I'm still working on it. You know, I don't understand you sometimes. The next couple of weeks over at Stern Pinball, we're going to see some small limited runs of James Bond Pro, John Wick Pro, Mandalorian Pro, and Premium, all of them being the last planned runs of 2024 for these respective titles. Sounds like they're gearing up for doing some new stuff. It certainly does. It's almost as if my August cornerstone prediction is really heating up. You know what?
    4:01
    Stern, it's Dennis here. Uh-oh. I need you to slow walk this into the very first day of September. you gave me a win at you know six months ago and i feel like i'm i'm asking for a lot but but i'm not because it means zach would be wrong and i think you all would like him to be wrong as well as i so we're we're we're we're in alignment here they're gonna build them in september i'll give you that but i think that just hold the announcement then too it feels like it's heating up to me dennis and listen i don't know if you've heard some of the news sources out there, but a lot of people referencing maybe an August Cornerstone. Not that they've attached their names to it, but there's a lot of references to the potential for a new August Cornerstone. The rumor, and we'll talk about it here in a bit, is a Jack Danger designed game, but we'll have to wait and see. September comes along, and we're still going to get that re-entry of Rush Pro and Premium come September. October is probably something else. September, mostly Cornerstone. October, we're going to get Jurassic Park Pro. likely continued cornerstone production as well. And then I don't know what else. Maybe we'll talk about that here in a bit as to what else is coming from Stern Pinball and when. But I've got another prediction, Dennis. Okay. They keep claiming that Godzilla 70, if that's what we're producing, that's what we're shipping, the original version, the color version of the premium, we're not going to make those again until 2025, probably Q1 of 2025.
    5:36
    My prediction is that Stern does not wait until 2025 to produce more of those original Godzilla premium games. I think they'll hold out until November, maybe. Maybe November.
    5:53
    You know, normally I would agree that this would be a strong prediction. It is a strong prediction, but I'm going to disagree with it. I do think that the demand is high enough for the black and white 70th anniversary edition that they'll go ahead and hold until January. Until January. Well, my thought is they're selling so well that, to my knowledge, they're not going to go on the line. They have no reason to put them on the line again until next year. And we're pretty much through all of ours. So we're going to get to a point again where there's not going to be any Godzilla premiums available, whether it's black and white or color. So push comes to shove. With that factored in, yeah. They're going to like making money. Yeah. I hear they like it. It's like if dealers all ran out of Jaws Premium. They'd be building Jaws Premium. Those are the two hot in us right now. That's just where it's at. So that brings up a bigger question for our listeners here, Dennis, and I'll pose it to you. When it comes to Stern Pinball, what is next? We have heard a smattering of, is that even a word? Yeah, yeah, smattering. A smattering of different rumored titles coming up.
    7:03
    Are we going to see a Metallica? Are we going to see X-Men 97? Those are kind of the two that people think may be happening here soon. But then I've heard additional rumors that said, no, it's not X-Men 97. Or Metallica is coming, but it's later. So I don't know what to believe. I don't know what's coming next. If it is something Marvel-based, I have such a close relationship with Marvel. If it is Marvel-based and it's not X-Men 97, what else could it be? what else is really hot right now in marvel universe land well deadpool is hot right now but do you think they would have a deadpool wolverine pin uh no i don't i think it's too soon for it too i don't think they would do a standalone wolverine pin um could you imagine if they did like remember the spiderman vault where they went they did the whole comic Spiderman instead of the movie. They said, all right, we're redoing. It's the same Deadpool game, but you know what?
    8:06
    It's now the Ryan Reynolds version. Oh, now that's interesting. So you're saying. Same layout. You're saying. In an ideal world, they would throw in the movie clips because that's what people would really want. Right. But. Tobey Maguire at second. But if you wanted a super cheap out, Stern, what you could do is you could keep the same display stuff. Everything about the game is the same except you go ahead and you have Ryan do the call-outs as Deadpool instead of video game Deadpool.
    8:37
    I don't think it happens. No, I don't either. But you're asking me what else could it be that was her Marvel. Speaking of Spider-Man, what about another Spider-Man game? Into the Spider-Verse. That's a hot Marvel property. It is. But I think Stern sits there and goes, well, but that's not playing on nostalgia. It's cartoons. It's kid stuff. Yeah, but they still have more films planned. I'm just thinking with Marvel, what's hot right now? I think it would be very, very good. But they might already be – we kind of did that with Venom. Like you played the different symbiotes. Aren't we now just doing the different Spider-Mans?
    9:14
    I think they're like, let's not touch that idea again ever. If it was Marvel. What about Loki? I thought Loki may be strong. Sure. I could see Jack Danger doing a Loki kind of thing. But only if it's got Tom Hiddleston. It's going to be one of those where we don't want the comic Loki. We want the charming Loki of the Marvel movies. Yeah, I think they're learning that. But the problem is after season two of Loki, they kind of... Was done.
    9:44
    There's rumors they could go season three, but it wouldn't be for a while, especially with the Kang Dynasty. dying off and all that stuff. They've kind of put themselves in a corner there. Oh, maybe it's a King Dynasty pin. Well, what do we do with this now? Jonathan Major's like, yes, finally, I'm back. Nope, sit down. Sit down. Now, I just, thinking of a Marvel theme that's hot right now is tough for me because all the hotness is coming from the upcoming stuff that Stern wouldn't be doing currently. The Doctor Doom stuff, the new Avengers Secret Wars. And that's all very speculative. Marvel's performance, especially on their TV Disney Plus shows, is really, really, really suffering right now. Exactly. And I don't know what's hot enough right now. The only thing out currently that is hot enough is Deadpool and Wolverine. It's the only hot thing out of Marvel. I thought maybe Doctor Strange, if they pull him into the new stuff. It's a little dated. I think you could do it. Just like you could do a Captain America themed pin. I thought about that too, but Chris Evans is gone, so I don't know. He is, but again, the pinball machine doesn't have to be timely.
    10:55
    Look at Jaws. Even if it's not Marvel-based, I have no clue what's next. But I am starting to hear some things.
    11:05
    I'm starting to hear this next game that Stern's coming out with is pretty impressive. It's pretty impressive to shoot. They say that about all the games. They don't. They really don't, but we'll see. But it raises the bigger question, the race to launch. We know Stern is gearing up for their third cornerstone release of the year, which just sounds crazy. We know JJP is close. Which one launches first, JJP or Stern? I think Stern. I do, too. Okay. Do you think JJP then wants to lag behind quite a bit to space it out, Or do you think they're fighting to get out there as soon as possible, too? Because then we got American pinball, question mark, at some point.
    11:52
    Cuphead? You know, I've often thought we as hobbyists, enthusiasts, buyers, sellers, think that they factor in when the other companies are releasing things, but I'm not sure as manufacturers that they actually do. I think it would make sense if they would but I'm not sure that they do I think it would behoove well see here's the problem because I don't know what the Stern game is so if the Stern game is X-Men 97 then I think JJP should just say we don't care if we come out at the same time or not because nobody cares about that license I don't think that's true I think there are people who care about that license but I think like in the world of strong themes then Okay.
    12:39
    Going back to what you were saying about you don't think manufacturers really pay attention to the release date of other – No, I think they pay attention. I don't think they plan their release schedule around it. Yeah. I think in this market, they have to. Well, that's why I said that I think they should. Yeah. This is – I know for a fact that they do. There are so many pins coming out. This is a bad time to be releasing this many pins. What? I've heard you and everybody else say it for four years. Well, look, Zach, here's the thing. And I don't know. It may just be me. The market is four years. I got to factor in my own biases and such. But pinball, it ain't hot right now. Sure it is. I have never felt this. I've never observed this level of general malaise and lack of excitement. What's the last big release we've had? Well, it depends on what you count. I mean, some people might say Jaws was a big release.
    13:42
    Six, seven months ago. So there you go, Jaws. So we got six months of just more. Yeah. I know, but it's just different now that all these collectors are going in going, okay, well, how many thousand am I going to lose on the next game? So they're evaluating buying that. That's true. Plus, as you and Greg Bone with all your B pluses know, it's not like the games that they've got in their collections all of a sudden got bad. So they're weighing all of this against that they're going to lose more money than they used to on selling a game and what their space concerns are. And quite frankly, people aren't finishing the games anymore because the code is so deep. So it's like – And it takes them forever to finish these codes. Well, yeah, if you even can. So there's just a lot. It reminds me of the Pat Lawler discussion. I don't remember which interview it was where he pointed out one of the biggest arguably mistakes that we made as an industry was putting diamond coat on these pens because they started to last forever and people just kept them. Operators just kept them. Got a lot of diamond plates. And now here we are with our super clear-coded pinball and play fields along with code depth that the average player cannot get all the way through without turning on settings to tin ball and all the rest of it. And even then, maybe not. And it's like you've created your own recipe for not being able to sell new games to people.
    15:08
    This isn't video games, people. If it was $60 to $70, $100 a pop, it's a totally different story. No space.
    15:19
    It's disposable income with no real space concerns. No one cares if they lose all their money on a video game because it's so cheap. I just picture Jerry from Multimorphic back in the corner maniacally nodding his head slowly. Yes. Space concerns.
    15:38
    Why don't we do this, Dennis? I want to give these people even more to chew on when it comes to the next upcoming releases from all of these manufacturers. So exclusively as a pinball show member, Dennis and I are going to build a game release schedule that will cover August, September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May, June. So over the next, I don't know, year or so, we're going to hypothetically look at what games could be coming out, which month, what they could be. We're going to dive into all of that. It's going to be a hell of a lot of fun. And hopefully I can not give away too much of what I do know. And hopefully I can predict things that I don't know for sure. So if you're a member, you can go listen to that. And if you're not, please help support the pinball show by going to patreon.com slash the pinball show. Signing up today as an official member, it's only 10 bucks a month. You get not only exclusive content that you're going to be hearing more and more of from the pinball show, but you get private-ish Discord conversations. right now our discord this is your fault because you chose to take a conversation and put it in as a patreon episode it's about watches look at me I'm the discord captain now oh god where's our captain what was the name of that movie captain phillips see I wanted to say captain ron but that's the one with Russell I'm captain ron It's awesome. He said gorillas, not gorillas, gorillas.
    17:18
    So I want to build you guys a game release schedule, and I think many of you will be very surprised at how many new games that we're going to receive between now and this time next year. Let's go through each one of them with you right now.
    17:35
    Continuing our Stern Pinball coverage, They did something big this last week. And, of course, I was on vacation when they did it. It is like – Well, you're always on vacation. No, I take like two vacations a year. You take three.
    17:52
    After that Haggis debacle, I won't be. That was two vacations worth right there. But Stern Pinball recently – they've announced it already, but it's finally in production, finally shipping what they're calling the expression speaker lighting system. This is really cool, Dennis. Have you seen what this is on? You've probably seen what this is on the Jaws LE and the John Wick LE, which come factory, come standard. Yes, yes. So it's the speaker lighting that everyone loves, like the mod that everyone loves. They love it. But it is interactive. It is communicative. It's a way of the creators presenting information and speaker lighting, too. It's integrated into the immersion as well. It's freaking spectacular. For example, on Jaws, the informative nature of this lighting is it will show you around a circle. Every time you hit it, the chum will build up and you'll get more blood around the circle. So you can just glance up and boom. It's a visual representation. So it's giving you information. whereas on John Wick an example of immersion would be muzzle blasting whenever the guns it flashes reactionary on those speaker lighting so it's just another way of pulling in into the immersive experience of pinball which nearly nothing else in gaming can except for VR but that's a whole nother patreon conversation so now those came standard on those two le models But now Stern Pinball said, I want people to be able to put on all their Spike 2 games, all their pros, all their premiums, all their LEs, every damn Spike 2 game. We want this immersion. We want this speaker lighting on everything. So they're shipping now.
    19:44
    And honestly, pretty freaking good price, too. Any guesses to what these cost? Fifty bucks. Tennis. Fifty dollars. Oh, sorry. I thought you were asking me what I wished they cost. Okay, $199. That's not bad. No. Now, people are going to be like, Billy, do you sure play?
    20:07
    That's right. You hear my voice deep inside your head. But even like Doug at Speaker Light Kits, even he was like, you know what? I'm kind of impressed with the pricing because like building the metal brackets and stuff I surprised they didn charge more for these So I didn think it was horrible I think this is going to be another mod that quickly surpasses a lot of their standard accessories that they offer right now. I think these sell a hell of a lot more than armor. I think these sell more than shooter rods. I think these are up there and maybe not up in the realm of like how many shaker motors sell, but they're right up there with toppers. Like everybody's going to want these speaker lights for their game. And I was also surprised that when they launched these, they're compatible not only with John Wick and Jaws, but they've coded them so far for Godzilla and James Bond as well. So that's pretty cool. The really kind of tricky part, though, is that some people like myself, my premiums, I already upgraded that five and a quarter inch LE Kenwood style speaker. And those, so that's not going to work. Nope. Your games are basically worthless and dead to everyone now.
    21:26
    But they're going to come out with an LE speaker style kit coming soon. But then other people were like, no, they'll still work. They just won't look at it. I don't know. I'm confused about all of it. But nonetheless, these things are selling very, very well. I assumed they would. And so this exciting release and launch for Stern Pinball Accessories. Congratulations to the team over there for a job well done. And feedback thus far has been very positive with the build of these things and install and everything. So very cool. We're still waiting for Venom Accessories, John Wick Accessories, and Godzilla 70th Black and White Accessories to be announced and shipped. Speaking of accessories, Dennis, I'll shill away here. We've got the following back in stock at Flippin' Out Pinball, Stern Shaker Motors, Stranger Things Armor. We've been out of that for quite a bit. Jaws Armor, Jaws Interior Art Blades, Stern Barstools, and Stern Dust Slash Glass Covers. Yay. This last couple weeks ago, did you see at Comic-Con a couple weeks ago, Keanu Reeves playing John Wick? Yes, I did. Wow. I think Gary Stern still has Woody from being able to get that coverage. Wow. I thought for sure Stern would post this video every day for a month. How lucky. Who set that up? Maybe he just randomly did it. Oh, yeah. He's just randomly walking through the crowd. Whoa. Look at this. I'm on a machine. What a fantastic. I am a pinball player. Every other manufacturer was so, so jealous when they saw that. They were like, fuck. Now, JJP's like, we're going to have to get the legacy of Harry Potter to play our Harry Potter wannabe game. oh the american pinball is like how are we going to get a cuphead to play i mean maybe a cosplayer could do it this is like get the cup on the phone yeah get the mug too we need both of them stat it was a it was a really cool thing to see keanu reeves on there flipping his own game nicely done stern pinball and speaking of stern we've got a lot of new code this is where they're killing it they keep relevant because they sell a game they come out of the gates with a game that they get you with the emotional feel of something new, something theme wise, and they get you with all that something design wise, toy wise, right? And then you purchase it and you're like, okay, but then they keep re upping those endorphins, that dopamine level by giving you trickles of new experiences with code updates. It's not like they start at 1.0 and then keep enhancing it. No, no, it's not finished whenever they give it to you, but they know we're going to buy it because that's what we do because it's new and shiny. And then we wait over time and we just keep getting spoon-fed little attractions. Now, some would argue that this is a shitty way of doing it, but I don't think it's hard to argue. I don't think you can argue that it's not effective. I've heard it both ways. Some people do actually really appreciate the revamping, watching a game evolve in particular. and others are like this is just a symptom from the video game side of you're releasing product before it's ready. New code includes a timely Deadpool version 1.11 where they added a berserker boom. I have no clue what that is. I mean, there's lots of booms, so I guess it's a different type of boom. Yeah, and they were doing different achievements because of the new Deadpool Wolverine film. So that's another insider connected, another way for Stern to hold supreme here. they can be more relevant and timely with Insider Connected like never before and more relevant and timely than anybody else can compete with in the entire industry. Is anybody ever going to catch up? Will anybody make that move? No. New code for John Wick version .86. This is a big one. This is a big code update, and we still have a lot more game to add to it. People are starting to speak more favorably about this game. They've added location modes. Locations are started when an enemy is defeated, and then completing a location is going to light adversary battle. And then, this is pretty novel, a daily random gameplay seed. Any idea what this is, Dennis? Well, game seeds, I normally associate that with roguelikes do this, where there will be a seed that populates the quote-unquote world. Oh, okay. Sometimes you can know the seed. So if you type this, like, in certain things, if you want to recreate a seed, you can if you know what it is. I see. But, yeah, basically it's a randomized game state. Yeah, you're not going to be presented with the same order of scenario. Right, right. So in some video games, for example, they'll do random seeds where, like, the order of the bosses is different. So it's not too linear, I guess. Right, right. Like, it depends. Like some games, the way the rooms are laid out and stuff might change. In other games, the maps and all the levels will be the same, but where all the items are is different. So it kind of depends on the type of game that gets. Sometimes they'll take like Nintendo games and develop game seed versions so you can do randomized like Legend of Zelda runs. So the items are in different dungeons and the bosses are. Your princess in a different castle. Yeah, it's just it's a different way. I think it's kind of cool here in pinball that they're going to make random the order of locations when you're playing John Wick as well as the car chase multi-ball. So it won't get dry. They mix it up. And probably the intensity or the difficulty levels probably will generate and change as well. New achievements also added in this new code update, including completing John Wick's house, catacombs, abandoned building, a lot of balancing, a lot of adjusting issues. Other new code from Stern Pinball, James Bond, V1.03, where it adds speaker lighting effects and better choreography with that wonderful topper and its lighting. And new code, Godzilla V1.11, with added speaker lighting effects as well. All right, we've got to jump into another big story in the industry, which is the fall of Haggis Pinball.
    27:38
    Hello, passengers. This is your captain speaking. We want to thank you for flying with us today. We are currently cruising at an altitude of 61,000 feet, which coincidentally is the same number of dollars that Flippin' Out Pinball lost from making a bad business deal with a group of Australians.
    27:59
    Speaking of, the weather a bit choppy as we fly over Australia, so flight attendants, make sure everyone remains buckled throughout the duration of this flight, Uh, but fear not, I'm here to keep you safe, keep you, keep you entertained. Uh, if you look closely at the left side of your plane passenger, you'll be able to see a moving van full of pinball manufacturing equipment being taken out of the factory before a liquidation crew can scrape together any money to help pay back those that lost hundreds of thousands of dollars from Haggis Pinball. Uh, I kid, I kid. Oh, and would you look at that? Passengers on the right side of our aircraft, if you look quickly out your window, you're going to see an actual angel in the sky.
    28:46
    Yes, this apparently is the angel investor that Damien from Haggis Pinball was looking for to keep his business leeching more money from people for another couple of years. I still can't see it. Keep looking. It's right by that cloud that's shaped like a gullible whale.
    29:09
    All joking aside, we appreciate you flying, flipping out air today. And God willing, let's pray for clear skies in the pinball future.
    29:23
    So Dennis, the time has come. We have talked about this. The industry has talked about this. So we won't go crazy deep because you've heard it elsewhere, and I'm getting bored of it at this point. I have a lot of money. But Haggis Pinball finally succumbs to closure, right? They're in the liquidation process. Mm-hmm. Yes. All right. I would call this liquidation without any liquid.
    29:49
    Pretty much. Not unusual. We've seen that with others. Highway's reminiscent. Where's my hydrofoil? You know, maybe you should get into the hydrofoil business. I don't know anything about hydrofoils, but they sound fun. So if you go to NAP Arcade, go to Kineticist, Pinball News probably has coverage timelines that you can follow to see what happened to Haggis in the timeline of events from the promises they made and failed with to where we're at now, which is essentially a liquidation company coming in and reaching out to creditors that are owed money from Haggis Pinball, one of them being myself from Flippin' Out Pinball. And, you know, the big question is, when did Damien and ownership know? Is this a scam? Is this just taking too big of a bite and being in over your head? And I think what I can say is that, and this is still, I'm not in anybody else's head, so it's just merely a guess. I think intentions are one thing, but so much has occurred that no one would be able to convince me that Damien and or others, they knew that they were not going to be able to fulfill what they were selling as they were still accepting money. That's where I'm at. I would have a hard time. I would have a hard time believing that not to be true. Thus, in my opinion, there were significant. I'll use the word significant levels of deception. I'll use the word significant. deception because I don't know another scenario that better makes sense if it isn't for deception.
    31:43
    And all that's kind of vague. What are your thoughts on the liquidation, the closing, the stories that days prior to the liquidation announcement, there was vans that they were loading equipment, getting everything out of there, no response to any of their business partners that they owe money to.
    32:03
    They've cleared all online presence videos gone. Everything's gone. It bad. It real bad. Yeah, I mean, so there are a few things here in play. And my apologies for having you regurgitate this. You've discussed this at length on EGP as well. We did when the liquidation first announced. I didn't spend very much time on it since the list of creditors and such came out because I feel like no one wants to hear me read through a whole bunch of documentation like that. Having done past – this is not my first pinball failure that I've covered.
    32:40
    I think the – I agree with you, especially in the wake of the comment. This is based off the commentary of people who had claimed – who had direct purchases, for example, in particular, I would say, with Haggis, that their game was about to be made or was on the line and to send full payment and that they did not receive product. That aspect is the part that red flags it for me that they were clearly needing to bring in more cash. And one of the ways they used was to get people to send money, even though their stuff wasn't actually ready for production. So that's one factor. The other thing would be about, obviously, we knew there was an issue the moment that that email, what was it in February, came out? the one where they needed to recapitalize. Oh, recapitalize. I think was the word, recapitalization. Now, I believe I comment, I know I've commentated this a couple of times, but I think right when that came out, one of the things I noted is, let's say in this hypothetical world that I was a super rich investor. You know, I'm there, I've got my Mr. Moneybags hat from Monopoly on, I got the shoe and the boat, I got all of it. Monocle? Yeah, the monocle maybe. I mean, that's very... The thimble? Yeah, the thimble. Got the thimble in case I – I was like, the thimble doesn't make any sense in Monopoly because there ain't no way that guy ever patched his own clothes. Yeah, I used to be thimble, but now I'm just the sneaker or the boot. Not the boot. I would take whatever. It didn't matter. Sometimes I was the ship. Sometimes I was the car. My sister was always the dog and would not play if she could not be the dog. Yeah, the little Scotty dog, yeah. Yes. So anyway, for me though, when it's like, okay, you need to recapitalize. That's not a good sign. Everyone understood that. In fact, a lot of people were like, well, we're glad Haggis has said something publicly, but rut row. But now the issue that's arisen when that happened was my initial reaction was there is no way I would come in as an investor and recapitalize you without me taking over.
    34:46
    Absolutely. And I heard – I don't remember where I heard it. I heard someone claim that there was a discussion about that, but that Damien had made it very clear he would not be giving up control of Haggis. I'm like, but if you need this size of a bailout, I think who would ever let you continue to run it without even knowing any details? As fair or unfair as it is, it's like if you're asking for this amount of money, it sounds to me like you've failed. And if my cash is coming in, my brain is coming in too.
    35:17
    Yeah. So so but at that stage with that announcement, it was telegraphed that things were not going right. So every decision that still took in cash after that point is going to be examined under a microscope by the community because it's like, OK, well, you said you needed to recapitalize. You said that you're just in time. Manufacturing wasn't working anymore. So.
    35:41
    How are you getting stuff done? And of course, they never really said anything after that point. I don't think the company said anything publicly after that point, period. And communication with them, even as an authorized dealer for them, was tough. It was tough towards the end here, especially in the last year. And without boring people with the details of my business aspect as a provider for them, So I will say that there was a time that we had a couple of the Fathom games that had some play field issue stuff. And it's been discussed on Pennside and on the forums and social media. There was some play field issue warping kind of stuff. And we were attempting to take care of that. And we were told one thing from Haggis. Oh, it's going to be populated play field as they should. And we, you know, Greg, who runs our tech department and warranty department, he worked with them for months after months after months of them saying, oh, it's going to happen. It's going to happen. And then finally, we just made I made an executive decision and said, no, I don't believe it's going to happen. I don't know if it's going to happen, but I'm tired, tired of our customers waiting. So I'll fucking eat. And now this is before I knew I was going to lose all this money to Centaur. This is before you knew you were going to refund everyone, including people that had already canceled their deposit six months ago. After six-plus months of waiting for a resolution for something, I said, no, we're not doing it. So we issued, again, money out of my pocket. We issued full refunds for some games.
    37:21
    And I finally was able to – I never got what I was promised. but I did find a solution that cost me a little bit more money, but good games now. But so everybody was made whole on that. But then whenever the communication still slipped and then it was, Hey, just want to give you guys a, I had this price spring. I want to give you guys a heads up that once centaurs do start shipping and stuff, we're probably going to do bundles of 10. So paid in full of 10 and I, Oh, wait. Oh, wow. That's interesting. So then my response to them was strong, assertive, essentially in a roundabout way, but it's still professional business. I said, you had a really, it's a major issue, but minor in the grand scheme of things, minor financially to fix these fathom issues that we've had with customers. And you fucking couldn't figure out how to do that. So I had to fix the problem for you and eat it for you to think I will pay anything for for 10 games. Like, with all due respect, I think we're not on the same page here or you're mistaking me for a dumb business person, which I am not. So I was stern with them on that or the idea of restructuring and finding some seed money or investor money or thinking that I would be open to assisting with finding said.
    39:06
    Oh, wow. So, I mean, again, I'm not a business person, but it doesn't seem normal to me to turn to your distributor network and ask them to help you find investors. Well, if they thought maybe. What, that you'd invest in it? Possibly. Who knows? I don't know. But presented as part of a team to try to, you know, opportunity. Did you explore it? Would you have gotten in charge?
    39:32
    I would never explore that. And what I explained to them was that poor ship is on a different planet. Not only has it sailed, like there is nothing like if you can't fix a little minor issue, then I would never think about assisting with a bigger picture plan. So that was one last. That was the last communication, really, that I had with them saying, essentially, I need I need actions. and until you have actions,
    40:06
    like leave me alone, I've lost enough money at this point with your company. And the foreshadowing is I lost a hell of a lot more once I went under. And a lot of those details will be discussed further. There is a new Cary Hardy series called Unboxing the Truth.
    40:24
    That's a pretty good name. I had to giggle because... Unboxing the Truth. Because I like Cary's work and I watched the first episode. It's good. It's really good. Even if you're not interested in the Haggis Pinball thing, it's just interesting content, and I give him a lot of credit for creating good entertaining content So he talked to two Haggis Pinball customers about their experiences And he very much adds a lot of dramatization, a lot of – Reenactments? Not reenactments. But, damn it, Kerry had, like, the Dateline walking while filming. Like, he just – it was very entertaining for me. I loved it. So I'm looking forward to subsequent episodes. And, listener, you never know. Maybe one with myself on there as well coming soon. So a lot of mess over at Haggis Pinball. I did want to correct some information out there, just objectively trying to clarify some things that are incorrect. There were some reports. Whenever this liquidation thing came out, they sent to us creditors, people who were owed money, very formal from liquidators. Here's what everybody is owed. Here's paperwork you've got to fill out to submit if this is incorrect. And it included every single person that was owed a penny, their address, all this stuff. The problem was that – and then so the threads and the hobbyist forums and stuff, they got their hands on this. Oh, yeah. And they did a good job of de-identifying some of the information and bundling it together because my document had every single person, but when they presented it online, it had just like dealers and then a total amount.
    42:17
    But one of the forms said that Flippin' Out Pinball was owed $60,000 Australian dollars. That's a lot. That's a shitload of money, Dennis. That is a load of money that makes my pee-pee soft. Like that, that, that hurts. That really hurts. Sadly, I would be happy if that's what it was, because objectively, what I submitted to the liquidation of being owed, and this is just being owed Centaur based stuff, was $91,500 Australian dollars, which comes out to around 60, 60, 1000 USD or US dollars. So that's a lot worse. That's a really a lot worse. So Dennis, Oh, I laugh. I gotta laugh. He just got to laugh. Um, so for somebody like me, a small business, that is a lot of money. Um, but it is what it is. It's fucking life. But I just wanted to clarify, not for sympathy or anything, just for clarification. Like that information was, I wish it was right, but it was wrong. So I can only imagine that other numbers were probably skewed as well. Maybe they'll update those. But that's not taking into consideration the money we lost with some of the fathoms making that right. So we're at a lot of money with that. The other thing that I saw reports, this was, I believe, a NAP article. And this is respectively just correcting some of the information in there. It said something to the extent of it was written in a way that said basically it was doing a timeline. It said the timeline was when Centaur came out, then Flippin' Out became the sole U.S. dealer. Cointaker Distribution was the former U.S. dealer, but Cointaker cut ties with Haggis, essentially saying that they've seen the writing on the wall. So they cut ties, so then somebody had to sell these products, so Flippin' Out stepped in. So that is objectively incorrect information. I don't even know where that information comes from because prior to Centaur going for sale, there was a handful of U.S. dealers, distributors for Haggis products. I myself was selling Fathoms. We sold quite a few Fathoms. So there was a lot of dealers, not a lot. There was probably five to ten dealers. So a lot of people are selling Fathom. So it wasn't a sole dealer. So Cointaker wasn't the only distributor pre-Centaur. No. That's what you're saying. And the only evidence and objective knowledge that I have is that whenever Centaur was about to come out, I had a meeting with – I requested a meeting from Haggis and met with Damien at TPF of 2023, I guess. It would have been 2023. Yeah. And he was there in 2023. So I met with him at the request of him, and at that time they had asked if I would have interest in – they were consolidating their distribution channels, and they just wanted to have one U.S. dealer, one Canadian dealer, one European dealer. If I would be interested, I, as in flipping out pinball, would be interested in being the sole U.S. dealer, whether they were sub-dealers and stuff, but the sole U.S. dealer.
    45:44
    And after discussion, we accepted that. so haggis cut ties with whatever dealers they still had because they were just consolidating so i don't think it was like a it's just a business thing so i to my knowledge nobody opted out um seen writing on the wall or anything like that so just for clarification's sake um so yeah there's that uh oh also update uh for those who care prior to all this liquidation stuff was about a month ago, myself and Nicole flipping out finally said, you know what? We're going to offer people refunds, even though they haven't called it quits. And we said we'd offer refunds if they went under this year. We're going to go ahead and offer refunds or short credit or whatever people wanted to because this doesn't feel good. But at the date of this, we've already refunded everybody's money that wanted refunds. And for anybody who wants credit, either was credited for a different product or has sustaining credit with us. So, um, yeah, we've, we've made whole every one of our customers. So we can proudly say that with flipping out pinball, not one of our customers who ordered a fathom or who ordered a centaur or out any, uh, any money, not a penny. So we're proud of that. So that tag us. That's what happens when people try to make pinball for those newcomers. Welcome. Uh, let this be an example of one that people still won't learn from and will continue to happen over and over again. Well, you know, one of the things that stood out to me, which I should have brought up in the whole, you know, the early discussion where you were mentioning about what was going on, when should they, when did they see the writing on the wall? I think one of the things that really stood out with the report coming out of the liquidators wasn't so much the amounts owed to the distributors and such, even though that's obviously a very large and thus impressive number, but there was no record of an escrow account. Yeah, and they mentioned it too. And the escrow, right, escrow, I believe, the escrow concept was proposed as a method for people who were going to be like their, they had that club membership, remember, where people would pay an amount of money? Yeah, yeah. And I think that money was originally advertised as being kept in escrow. And it was weird too because dealers could still do the tickets because we had, I think, one or two series ticket holders.
    48:10
    So we had to refund them. Now, technically, that would have, escrows, that's one of those things because people love the word escrow because it sounds so secure. Oh yeah, they haphazardly use that word. Right, right. Because it's supposed to be a third party. A third party would hold the money, but it should still be in the asset list, I would think. But yeah, no one can find the, if you gave the money, like one of the places there I buy and sell wristwatches uses an escrow service. So the site is the escrow. I don't send money directly to the dealer. And when I sell something, they don't send the money directly to me. The person has to receive the product first. The escrow service gets confirmation of the delivery, and then the escrow service releases the funds. That's how we do it. So yeah, I've noticed that. That term gets used a lot in pinball, and I think it's used as a security blanket when it's untrue. It's not really escrow.
    49:09
    When Cointaker for Dutch Pinball held the funding to give to Dutch, that's like an escrow arrangement because they're the third party.
    49:18
    Were they selling the game? Would that have been an escrow? Well – If they were the customer, like it would be an escrow if they weren't selling the product. Well, but the issue was what they had indicated was that they would not give the money, the final full payment to Dutch until the game was ready. Oh, okay. So Cointaker was functioning as escrow to comfort the customer that the customer's money wasn't going to be sent initially to Dutch Pinball before the game was built. Well, it's all semantics. I guess I could have technically said that too. Like I offered an escrow because their money technically never went to Haggis. flipping out money went to you know like it's murky yeah no i think in but in your instance this is normally involving full payment yes yes yeah but normally the whole escrow thing is involving full amounts versus the deposit model so there are a lot of people who paid in full to haggis who bought directly from haggis oh i will say back in december january we had one series ticket holder that was getting over bolivian that haggis requested full payment on Dennis and they submitted it.
    50:28
    Yeah. Never got their game. So it wasn't just the deposits that I had to refund people. We had one paid in full or oblivion. And that I didn't know the distributors dealt with the season ticket holders. They did like it later. Yeah, they did. And it sucks, too. In retrospect, I was trying to be a good business partner when the customer initially bought a Fathom from Haggis Direct. Then they wanted the security of flipping out for Centaur, but they also wanted to do a series ticket.
    51:09
    So Haggis allowed them to do a series ticket for the remaining four through flipping out. so Haggis came to me and said do you want this or do you want us to handle this series ticket and I said it's up to you guys if you guys want me to do it I can if you want to stick it and they were like you can just keep it and I'm like alright so by me keeping it was me having to pay for it whenever it wasn't delivered so if I would have just said no you guys can handle it but I hope this has taught you an important business lesson to not enter into any new relationships with new pinball companies that's what a lot of people said you know for those that said oh he knew you know that's what he gets for going into a relationship with a business and it's not really fair because you know life isn't fair this is business just a business it's calculated risks you win some you lose some you try to win more than you lose It sucks, but when people say, would you do it over again?
    52:21
    Hindsight, well, why would I lose money? No. But I could see a situation like this that I'm more hesitant, but I'm still not risk-aversive totally in business. So yeah, shit like this comes up. good opportunities come up you have to weigh the pros versus the cons and you go with it as long as everybody's taken care of at the end of the day that's what matters we'll keep going chicago gaming company they're going to keep going oh boy they're going to keep going so much so that this was a this was a mess of a situation but of course it is a chicago gaming company weeks back i started getting messages from customers hey i want one of those new excel color displays that they used to be making for medieval madness with the with the speaker lighting and the big old long extended animated colored freaking awesome accessory um and i said okay well i mean we're taking a list whenever they resell them again they're like oh no they're selling them now no they're not oh yeah pinside said they are like a fucking pinside so i go on pinside and look and oh yeah cgc selling them i'm like well first off cgc doesn't even sell direct So, no, they haven't reached out to dealers. No, all this is bullshit. And I even said it online, like, you know, they haven't reached out to dealers. So, no, this is all just.
    53:49
    And people, no, no, no, it's true. So, I call Chicago Gaming. Hey, you know, is there some truth to this? Like, what's going on? They're like, yeah, yeah, we're building them again. I'm like, motherfucker.
    54:01
    How are you going to sell a product and not tell your dealers? Number one. They don't need to. They're selling direct. Right. Number two, I thought you guys weren't selling directly. What is that? Surprise. Surprise, surprise. Oh, you. Oh, my God. So I was like, oh, my God. Okay. So I got someone, and I was like, well, okay, I'm eating crow there. Yeah, you guys are correct. They are selling these XL displays again for, I thought it was for Medieval Madness, but I was talking to CGC, and they said, now this is from CGC. They said that when they came out with these XL – you know what I'm talking to, listener. Dennis, you know what I'm talking about, these XL displays. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, yeah. They came out with Medieval Madness, the Royal Edition, but they also sold SEs and Classics during this – oh, hell, this has got to be six years ago or five years ago. This was the super – this is before they knew what a big hit the XL would be. Yes. So they sell these accessories to make your original LE or original remake of Medieval Manus just like these. So you can buy the toppers and accessory and XL display as an accessory, even the RGB lighting kit, pain in the ass to install, but you can buy it as a kit, all as an accessory.
    55:13
    And they sold very well. Initially not so well, but then the topper market hit and everything hit and everybody wanted these things. They have been gone and unable to purchase for two or three years. people have been yearning for them.
    55:27
    People have been really wanting them. So they're coming out with the XL color display. But CGC told me they didn't market it. They marketed it only for MMR years back. They said technically these work for Attack from Mars and Monster Bash too.
    55:44
    Yeah. So for individuals with the classic versions that don't come standard with this XL color display, you can put it on your classic editions remakes of Chicago Gaming Company's Monster Bash remake and Attack from Mars.
    56:01
    So that's really cool. So they're shipping now. They're in stock, and they plan on producing the King of Pain toppers and RGB kits later on here in Q4, which then brings up the, when's MMR coming out? Is it coming out? People, I don't know why people are still questioning whether or not they're making Medieval Madness remake again. We have screamed it. We have said it. Everybody said, yes, they are making Medieval Madness remakes again. When? They would love to start in December, but it's CGC. So I think February, March, if I had to guess, I think it'll be Q1 of 2025.
    56:39
    So they are making them again. I'm going to pose this question to you, Dennis. as we're looking at all of the end for the patreon members the club members we've already reviewed all of the stuff coming out uh the schedule of game releases that's a there's a lot of new titles a lot of big titles mmr another run this is like the third run of medieval man's remake if not more the cgc end up selling more in this run of mmr than the total number of We're going to go through the list of the next Stern Cornerstone LE.
    57:19
    Tricky. That's probably 1,000. Right, right. I'm assuming it'll be 1,000. I'm going to say no. Yeah, I'll say no as well. Simply because they've already run MMR before. If this was a first time, then I'd say yes easily. So that one's kind of easy. What about the next JJPC? Yes. Oh. Oh, so we know that typically they like to put a thousand count on that CE. Correct. And they made all of them a known John, but you're banking on it. Maybe not being a big hit. Not so much that. I mean, it's it's the price delta between the MMR and the CE is a big motivator of it, too. OK, yeah. Maybe even the biggest. Sure. OK, so you're going to own that. On that, I would say, I think it'll be close, but I'm going to say no.
    58:19
    Yeah, I'm going to say more MMRs. That's tough. What about Labyrinth? I think Labyrinth will have a higher count. I do, too. Funhaus remakes in total? No. You think more MMRs, then? Yes. Then Funhaus remakes. Let me think.
    58:37
    Funhouse isn't as beloved as you might think it is. Yeah, but it's the first time remade versus like the fourth time remade. Too creepy. I'm going to say.
    58:52
    Yeah. Oh, man. That's a close. I'm going to come back to that one. Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre together.
    59:01
    Gosh, the Looney Tunes makes it hard for me. I know. I'll say no. I think Looney and Texas combined probably do beat the next run of MMR. I agree. Only because of Looney, though. I agree, but I think that people would be surprised how close that was. What about the next spooky game in total? Because the rumor is they're not going to do this dual theme thing again. It's going to be one theme, and we don't know what for sure what it is. So this is just a who knows. But what do you think? More MMRs this next run that they sell or the next spooky game in total? I don't know what they're working on. I will say probably the next spooky game I've heard. The rumor is all of their upcoming licenses are extremely strong. So I'll go ahead and say more on the spooky game.
    59:52
    I'm going to say more on the next spooky game here. And going back to Funhaus remake, I think MMR rerun is going to edge out Funhaus remakes in total. But I could easily be wrong on that one.
    60:10
    Dutch Pinball on the news. They continue to tease their next game, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, with a sneak peek photo of a Lior sculpted pocket watch with a, quote, three inch IPS screen because we care. End quote. It's nice to care. Yeah, share because you care. Now, I just don't know what an IPS screen is. I guess maybe a dynamic screen or something.
    60:35
    So we should be seeing that soon. It's from DPXX. So it's going to be more of a boutique. I don't even know how many they're making, 500 or something. That's what they report. But depending on price, they may only sell 100. They may sell more. Who knows? But they do now have a couple of content creators on NDA. That is Kerry Hardy and Chris Coolers from Canada's Pinball Podcast. So we should see and hear more from them soon about this game, I would think, because I believe they're rolling this out before Expo. And they also added some U dealers Now I think they up to four U dealers for Dutch Pinball and Dutch Pinball X Yeah no flipping out Pinball still is a dealer
    61:20
    Alright, question to you, Dennis. There's rumors that Dutch Pinball, you know, they've got Back to the Future. They thought they were going to come out with it this year, but they've delayed that to next year.
    61:32
    What if Dutch Pinball doesn't have Back to the Future? Then nobody has it. And that's for the best. We all win. And it's not like I know any information. But it just makes me wonder. Why do you wonder? Because it was just so odd that Dutch Pinball would get that license over the likes of any of the larger companies, number one. I've always wondered that. number two if they said they've had this license i've heard about this license from like what 2022 2023 like they've had it for a while now they're not going to make it until 2025 like how long are they going to pay for a license that they're not making a product for I mean, it happened with Lebowski, so.
    62:28
    I would venture to say that the licensing pricing on Lebowski versus Back to the Future is substantially different. Why do you think that?
    62:42
    Perception. I have no evidence. I'll tell you why I don't have that perception, because I don't think Back to the Future has the assets coming with it for Dutch that they had with Lebowski. The branding and intellectual property value for Back to the Future is likely 50 times higher than that of the big Lebowski franchise. If they can't use the DeLorean, if they can't use Michael J. Fox, if they can't use Christopher Lloyd, how much do you have to pay? I mean, look at HomePen and the Blues Brothers, which doesn't have anything from the movie. Sure, sure. It could be something like that. It could be. When you consider that being on the table, like the right to use the name and the font, all of a sudden, to me, it seems quite affordable. If that's the case. And I think the answer to your question about other, you know, other lights, I still think you obviously think that other manufacturers wanted this license. I remain unconvinced that they did.
    63:47
    Just from a business, it makes no logical sense to me. Like, this is a property that sells merchandise. This is the property that sells, like, it's such a hot property that sells so much stuff in so many different areas. I mean, you've got the theme park, right? You've got so much stuff. You don't have a big Lebowski theme park, right? You don't have.
    64:11
    Sure, but I don't see people walking around on the street wearing Back to the Future T-shirts and stuff. It's just not. Sure they do. No, I don't see them.
    64:20
    Okay. It'd be a better license to do Nike and collect all the shoes. All right. It was interesting to me.
    64:34
    Here's the other question. Do you think we even see it in 2025? I think it'll be revealed by then, yes.
    64:43
    I just want to back to the future game. Pedretti Gaming, they continue to create the Funhaus remakes.
    64:51
    I've got to give myself a little credit here. They helped with flipping out Pinball. create sizzle trailer for the 2.0. It's the LE Midnight Limited Edition model. They didn't have like a trailer trailer, so I'm like, oh, I need to create one. It's a cool game. So I created it. Go check that out. As well as we've got some LE gameplay, an LE gameplay guide coming this week from Flippin' Out Pinball. So go follow, like, and subscribe to that if you want to see a gameplay guide for that new game. Pinball Brothers say that they are now shipping ABBAs. None have landed in the States yet. but they're coming. And before going any further, Dennis, we have to thank some people. They're our official Screaming Goat Club members of the Pinball Show. Yay.
    65:34
    Today's topic is liquidation, so we should make them all liquids. Oh, that's true. Yeah, thank you again, Rodney, also known as the Bobcat. If the Bobcat was a drink, what would it taste like?
    65:47
    Oh, spicy. Well, not hair of the dog. Oh, no. See, I'd shoot that fucker. gunmetal? it was like gunmetal? oh shoot that fucker I don't know Rob sure thank you so much Rob and your continued support the panther I think it tastes like Robitussin because 60% of the time it works every time I think it would be the worst tasting drink of this bunch I think if anything it would taste like a diaper filled with Indian food which is weird because Rob normally when we do our Patreon happy hours He's always got the fancy stuff. He does. He's always mixing drinks. God, that guy is just so smooth. But his drink, not so much. Frank, I want to thank Frank for being a Screaming Goat Club member. The Falcon would have some bite to it. I think it would be more of what we call a general red drink. Ripple.
    66:46
    I'll take that red juice. Some of that stuff. Dave. Dave, thanks so much, Dave, for the continued support. Screaming Goat Club, Shaker Motor.
    66:57
    What would that taste like? Vodka martini, shaken, but not stirred. That's clever. Thank you. Thank you for the bailout there. Joe, I want to thank Joe for the continued support. The Fox.
    67:10
    I mean, it'd be an orange drink, right? You have to just, it's an orange drink. Orange Kool-Aid. Yeah. Orange soda. That would be. Yeah. Sunkissed. Yep. Absolutely. And Charlie, thank you, Charlie, for the continued support, also known here as the bell. The bell of the ball. Maybe one of them Moscow mules is they come in those weird cups that the bell is made out of. Absolutely. Those copper cups. Absolutely. And the next one is so, so simple. Thank you, William. You think so? You think? Yeah. Thank you. This is going to lead me right into the dude. Thanks for the continued support, William. Okay, sir. You're a Lebowski. I'm a Lebowski. That's terrific. And the dude would absolutely be the white Russian. All right. Lately, as an official TPS member, people on Discord have been talking about watches. So you can run away as fast as you can from that Discord channel. But holy cow, have you lost control of that Discord? You know what? I even commented in there recently during the little watch bullshit discussion. Nobody even referenced it, so I fucking deleted it. And I said, you know what? I'm not coming in here anymore. I'm staying out of this whole stupid subsection of watches. I'm done.
    68:24
    Yeah, that's right, guys. Reminder, stay tuned. We should have a happy hour hangout coming very soon. So for those members, we'll announce that in our Discord and on our club membership page. But before the end of the show, we've got to give the people the heat. We've got to give the people what they want. It's not liquidation here at the pinball show. No, no, no, no, no. It's hard. It's solid. It's the steel of the industry. It's pinball market trends.
    68:53
    It's a pop-town techno world. I like your style, dude. Trending up this week is Deadpool. Because Dennis went and seen the film. Of course it is. It's Deadpool. It's a fun movie. It's trending up right now because Stern's all in right now with promotion of it. They've done code updates for this game. There are added achievements for this game. It is relevant to what's trending right now in our society. That is the Deadpool and Wolverine film. It is everything right now in the world of pop culture is everything Deadpool. If Stern really cared, they would insert in some of the animation dog pool. Just like have a little dog in a Deadpool outfit just in the corner, like in the arcade on the standby screen or something. I know for a fact what we're dressing Greg's dog up as this year. Yes. Yeah, no, Greg's dog, yeah. For a Halloween special, it's dog pool. Absolutely. And I think I'm doing the Deadpool, and I think he may be doing the Wolverine for that episode. Because he can pull off a good Hugh Jackman Wolverine with his beard. Him's hairy. All's training up this week. Oh, my God. It's new pinball accessory releases.
    70:05
    Never a time in this year like this last month. We have got some substantial, cool re-releases and releases. The Stern Expression Speaker Lighting Kit and the CGC XL Display. Oh, baby! You know what? It almost feels as I wonder if Spike 3, Dennis, will come standard with some Expression Speaker Lighting. Hmm. Maybe. Hmm.
    70:33
    If that or a year later it's going to be a added upgrade. So go out and purchase and love on those new pinball accessories because, for me, that new display, whether it's on the CGC or if it's the lighting on a stern, I care more about that than I do shooter rod or armor. It's so visual. It's right there. Also turning up this week, I've got to give it to them, it's JJP's recent media-infused Elton John promotional video. Have you seen this? Have you heard this? I didn't know this was a thing. Holy moly. The last thing I remember was that one guy who flew away and never saw him again.
    71:12
    He just lifted in the air. I think it was Ken Cromwell. I've got to give my buddy Ken a lot, and of course I'm biased because he's a great friend, but I've got to give him a shitload of public credit here because he has done, in one little bitty short form media reel, what all of these manufacturers should have been doing for a while, And that is taking the product that you're trying to sell and creatively enmeshing it with those who are most publicly supportive of said product and creating a promotion that integrates all of that together. And it was done so nicely. So you had individuals like YouTube, like Gonzo's YouTube or Erica. There was comments during this promotional reel from them. This is Steve Ritchie's best shooting game. It was just so well done that I just love seeing this kind of stuff. So we often poke manufacturers for not working with pinball media and such. Well, they've proven it wrong here. This is a terrific, maybe a gold standard example of how to do this to perfection. Also trending up this week is the odds of pinball becoming an Olympic sport. No, come on. It's trending up, baby. Look, here's my point. No. Objectively. You have no point. Break dancing, Dennis?
    72:39
    Break dancing. Who doesn't like break dancing? Why are you judging all the b-boys and b-girls out there? And they're so cool they can't even call it break dancing. They just call it breaking.
    72:50
    No. As if break dancing wasn't bad enough, you're going to fucking call it breaking? No. It's not a sport. It's a dance. It's a fucking dance. There's no sport about that. Does it make you sweat? Yeah, sure. Sure. When I'm grooving, half drunk at a wedding reception, I'm sweating too, baby. You got to get that draft beer out of you. But it's not an Olympic sport.
    73:14
    Don't get me started. How about this? Not breaking dancing. Horse dancing. I shit you not, listener, if you weren't privy to it. Horse dancing is an Olympic sport. That's preposterous. Horse dancing. You don't even break a sweat dancing your horse around. What is that?
    73:35
    And for God's sakes, if break dancing wasn't bad enough, if horse dancing wasn't laughable, you're going to tell me pinball is not an Olympic sport, but fucking mall walking is? Mall walking. I wouldn't even want to go to that. Have you seen these people, Dennis? I've seen some of the horse dancing and break dancing people. But you've not seen the speed walking? No, I didn't. I thought you were making that one up. Oh, no. Sadly, this is too true to make up.
    74:06
    There are rules that you have to be walking stride. The difference between all three of those and pinball, pinball would never pass the drug test.
    74:19
    Well, half of these don't either, to be honest. But mall walking. So never have I seen a competition that's like, no. So we know there's full stride called a run, but we want you to go up to that threshold without jumping right into running. So, like, I looked at the rules, too. You have to, like, the front foot can't bend at the knee, and both feet have to be, at least one foot has to be touching the ground at one time to constitute a walk. Yes, mall walking. These poor, you should see the hips of these competitors, like, becoming dislodged out of the hip socket just so that they can keep the speed walking care in motion. It's horrid. So, yes, training up this week is definitely the odds of pinball actually becoming an Olympic sport because half of these damn things are now laughable. Have you been watching the Olympics, Dennis? No. Oh, that's sad.
    75:17
    What's next? E-games? oh god there's been talk fucking joke you know what i'll put this out there i would argue that pinball is very much more sport than any video gaming is how about that boom all right not much for trending down this week but one thing that is definitely trending down and i i'm just reporting the facts here people's flipping out pinball's bank account and look a lot of you guys are like because he lost money with haggis no as if that wasn't bad enough welcome to the stage soggy state machines and what i mean by that i just it's clever to call them soggy state machines i lost my ass on a trade-in recently dennis that included i'm just done with old games you know i've put them in the past and for good reason i'm so sick and tired of these stupid ass solid state or electromechanical games that people trade them in oh they're in excellent condition they're in Very good condition. And they bring them to me, and I go inspect them. They're soggy. They were water damaged, Dennis. They're water damaged.
    76:29
    I got to put my finger through the cabinet. This guy got a brand new Stern Pro. But, yes, I lost my ass, Dennis, on some. What's wrong with people? there still needs to be a quantifiable categorization grading system of conditions of pinball machines I'm not saying he's going to send everything off to get certified like a baseball card I'm not saying that I'm in the process of creating it but I may be it's such a big task though but I'm working on it there needs to be some type of categorization because when you say something's in very good condition and it doesn't boot and I can stick my finger through the cabinet, we're not on the same page, right? Sure. But then I'm the asshole that – hey, what constitutes good condition here? Like this is so far from it. Maybe you just need a blanket rule that you don't want anything older than DMD.
    77:26
    It would help weed out some of it. I know, but I'm fine. And you know what the guy said when I mentioned it? I said, look, I don't – usually I just take it off the air. I don't care. I'll lose my ass if I need to because I should ask more questions. But I got to say, this is pretty egregious, man. this is pretty bad and he goes well you know i didn't have no water damage i said you have them in a basement like with fucking no ventilation like what what did they come from a swamp and he goes well we did hit a little water on the drive over there you go and that's look people i'm just here to report the facts because numbers don't lie maybe i should start lying i'm pinball market Trans.
    78:11
    Dennis, where can people reach you? They can always email ClickTheGamersPodcast at gmail.com, and I check those, and sometimes I answer them. You can email us at ThePinballShow at gmail.com. Also, make sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram. Sign up to be a member today. Patreon.com slash ThePinballShow. Buy, buy, buy! Help support the show. You get some stuff out of it. Some exclusive stuff, too. join our discord and follow like and subscribe to straight in the middle of video series. I do on YouTube, uh, follow like and subscribe to watches with Dennis on YouTube. Do you have a Facebook page for that yet? Uh, yeah, I haven't. Yeah. Follow that too. And also big time flipping out pinball. They're the sponsor of this show. When I buy my pinball shit, I buy from flipping out from toppers or play studios. I've got it figured out, figured out.
    79:02
    When I take a pinball, I've been flipping out, flipping out, figuring out. When I buy, buy, buy, I buy from flipping out. Buy, buy, buy. Follow, like, and subscribe to them. But the product showcase this week for flipping out pinball is the accessories. Get yourself a CGC display, XL display for one of your remake classic games, as well as Stern Expression speaker lighting. We have a ton of those coming in this week, so gobble them up. We've had some customers buy them. Like, they're buying them for all their Spike 2s because they know eventually they're going to get them all in all of those. So I've had people buy 10 at a time. Godzilla 70th anniversary we have in stock, but I think I'm down to two or three. If you're wanting to get on the next interested list for the next Stern release or JJP release, we can do that. We can take your name. We've got Pulp Fiction SCs. We've got Ripley Edition Aliens. We're taking pre-orders for Fun Houses, Labyrinths. We have John Wick's in stock, Jaws, Godzilla's, pros, Foo Fighters, Stranger Things, a slew of used games. We've got it all. Elton John's, you name it, we've got it over at Flip and Out Pinball. Even the Escalator Stair Climbing Hand Truck. And I do have a Big Buck Hunter Reloaded in stock. Flippin' Out with Friends is a show that Joel Engelberth does with Flippin' Out, where he's either streaming a game with his brother Jared or they're having chatting streams. They've done recently a Stranger Things stream. I'm trying to think what they've got coming up this week. They may be doing an Iron Maiden stream this week. You have to follow and watch on YouTube for that, flipping out pinball on YouTube. Dennis, you need to teach these people something.
    80:41
    Well, the only thing I can really advise them is if they're having a bad day and it's full of doom and gloom, just turn on Deadpool and download the new code with Berserker Boom, whatever it is. That's good. That's nicely done. And always practice safe pinball. And the next time you hear someone online or someone at a get-together say, well, we could save some money if we just bypass the distributor and the pinball dealer altogether. Let's just buy straight from that company. Just maybe at that point remember what benefits an authorized pinball dealer such as Flipknot Pinball can do for you. That's all. Just, you know, maybe mention it. Just, you know.
    81:24
    Let's go, baby Let's go, let's go Let's go Let's go, let's go 1, 2, 3, 4 Yay Hot damn