The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Welcome to year number four of the final round. Marty, four years now. We're in our fourth. And Twippy nominated podcast, I'll also add to you. Can you believe it? This is the final round pinball podcast episode something. we'll have to insert a number in. I can't remember. It's very early here. It's really early here. Yeah, we're recording this Friday afternoon for me, Saturday morning for you. Sorry, Marty's not drunk yet. Yet? That will change. It's 8.30 in the morning. Give me at least another 15 minutes. Exactly. Although you're on your way to get a little boozed up. Admit it. That is true. I am. I'm going to Four Pillars for gin tasting. And, mm-hmm, yeah. A must if you're in the Melbourne area, for sure. so nominated. You know what sucks? Is that we were nominated because it would have been so easy to say, you know what? Let's just not do it anymore. No one gives a shit. Now we've got to fucking do it another year. Now there's expectations. My question is, if we're in and we weren't in last year, who got knocked out this year? Because there's always been a bit of controversy around the podcast. Well, besides the controversy around who always wins. The other controversy is around people that don't make it. Like, remember the first year that Loser Kid didn't make it? Everyone was just like, what the fuck? So who did we knock out? And we're sorry because we didn't want to be. I have no idea. I pay so little attention to it, as you know. I don't vote. I don't beg for votes. Hey, you know what? It's nice to be nominated. That's great. That's awesome and cool. But I don't know. I saw somebody post something. This has nothing to do with podcasts. I think it was a streamer. And they're a really good streamer. I think their name is Geek Gamer out of the Northwest. Yeah, Geek Gamer TV, yep. They do a great job. They do a lot of those Northwest championships. And they wrote this long note about being bummed that they weren't nominated for streamers. I have to think there's more streamers than there are podcasts. Because to me, the streamer that didn't get nominated that just jumped off the chart was Lazerloes. Yes. Yeah, I noticed that. like nobody streams more than him so volume alone and not to mention how funny he is and you know everything else but we don't know he may have told people not to vote for him like we did well i mentioned that a few years ago to twip i'm like just take me off the fucking ballot i don't care honestly you me we don't care about this and i know it does matter to some people that's great that's awesome fill your boots were you bummed last year we weren't nominated i was like ah maybe maybe we're not good maybe we should call the day no i again i because we had actively been quite disinterested in the whole process i wasn't surprised and didn't bother me at all and as we've always said you know there was a year and we've been told this that it was so close between head to head and the winner that had we actually asked for votes we would have won but we didn't want to win we still don't want to win so it's just you know it's just a non-thing it's better if we listen it's better if you hate us and we hate you no one gets hurt that way that's the perfect balance in the world can i can i just i just want to ask you a couple of questions about trippies if i can fuck yeah i'm the guy to ask go ahead okay so i just want to talk to you about the games that are eligible for a trippy okay so and i just want to say that this is the eligibility christ um category this is for the games not all the writing categories this is for the games this Games are eligible if they are shipping or have shipped between the 1st of December 2021 and the 1st of December 2022. Okay. Remakes are eligible for categories in which significant changes have been made. Okay, there you go. I have no idea where you're going, but I think, like, we have not discussed this. I know exactly what you're about to say. Can I guess? Go, sure. So not on the list this year, even though it was announced in 2022, is Scooby-Doo, because they didn't produce any machines. Whereas Haggis announced in 2021 that Fathom would come up. You said remakes don't count? That makes no sense. Remakes are eligible for categories in which significant changes. So Haggis did Fathom in 2021, but didn't actually ship until 2022. so they should be eligible in 2022. Is that where you're going? I'm just guessing. Yeah, so they're not on the list. Okay? Bullshit. Not on the list. Bullshit. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So they're not eligible for the main categories like Game of the Year because it's a remake, effectively, right? Okay. So going by that logic, let's have a look at the nominees for Best Animations and Display. You've got Rush by Stern, Toy Story 4, Jersey Jack, Weird Al's Museum of Natural Hilarity, James Bond 007, Flipper Foxtrot Rhythm Explosion, Super Hoop by Bitronic, Funhouse 2.0, Rudy's Nightmare, and Cactus Canyon Remake by Chicago Gaming. Oh. That's a bit interesting, isn't it? It's not fair. It's not consistent. So let's have a look at Best Sound. Is that what you're getting at? Am I on the right path? Yeah, yeah. Am I guessing correct? Not there. So Best Sound, you don't have Cactus Canyon there, because, again, it's the like-for-like sound. But you do have Funhaus 2.0, Rudy's Nightmare there. Different call-outs? Different music? I don't know. Best Sound? Yeah, probably. But also, so Best Rules, this is the Lyman F. Sheats Jr. Jr. Award. Funhaus 2.0 is there. There. And yet, Fathom has a completely new rule set. Best animations and display. From what I can remember, Fathom had no animations and displays when it originally came out. So now it's got two LCD screens. Best sound. New call-outs. The whole thing. Anyway, there you go. Just thought I'd bring it up. What are your thoughts, Geoff? You and I did not discuss what we were going to talk about. No, we didn't. This is the first I've heard this. and I kind of, when you asked me the question, and you know how I feel about it, I kind of, let me think what Marty could be up. Oh, hey, wait a second. There's a big void here. It's bullshit. There's no other way to put it. It's bullshit. You can't say it's allowed for this machine, which are remakes and new rules, but not this one, which has different sounds, different call-outs. Yeah, Haggis got hosed. That's not fair. I'll say it for you. I'm saying it for you. I'm not saying anything, but what I'm just going to reiterate is I'm saying it for me then. Remakes are eligible for categories in which significant changes have been made. Do you think there's been significant changes made? Yes. 100%. I have no opinion on the matter. Oh come on man. Displays on the apron, a whole new set of code. You've got the different GI, callouts, everything sounds. It's night and day different game. For sure. Sure. And so is Funhouse for the exact same reason Funhaus 2 is. Exact same reason. It's a different game. It's similar layouts. And another calling out bullshit. Fuck, wasn't Supreme nominated years ago? You want to talk about remakes? Oh, this is a reskin. Right? Sure. Anyway. It's funny because I... I can say to people who ask me, but I don't want to speak on your behalf. But I don't want to speak on your behalf, so I am careful not to say I don't give a flying fuck about the Twippies or nominations or anything like that because it doesn't mean anything. You know what means things? Our game sales and enjoyment and things like that. That's fine. Have your popular vote fun thing. Have a party. All that kind of good stuff. I do love Emoto and Todd Tuckey hosting it. That's got to be great. Yeah, it's got to be awesome. I'll give you all that stuff. That stuff's fine. the significance of these things really like how did this fucking thing start it was this week in pinball gathering all this information from pin side and podcasts and streams and bundled it up did a lot of fucking work to do that bundled up every monday jeff and now will and then presented and then thought oh we'll do an award show and now that's the industry standard or or even the pinball awards um the pinball awards at least to pinball people voting as opposed to anybody with a fucking email address yeah why are you doing this to me you know i don't like talking about you're a dick what's really funny is i was talking to somebody at work about this yesterday and i said this is what i'm gonna say to jeff watch listen for the reaction and you just done exactly what I thought. But like, couldn't not have scripted this better. And as we said, we've not spoken about this. At the end of the day, we would never win any of these awards at all. They're just not in the numbers that other games like Rush and Toy Story and Bond and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, we weren't going to win any awards, so I'm not really that bothered. Am I a little bit irked that my name, my code's not up there as best rules? sure i spent a lot of time on that even to be nominated even to qualify for sure and and it's just to be acknowledged that it exists yeah anyway fuck hook line and sinker i let me say this for haggis it's bullshit that game is absolutely gorgeous and you say you wouldn't win anything well i would say you're a strong candidate for whatever um visuals are in that game, the GI and all that kind of other stuff. I mean, that stuff was legendary. It pops whenever you see Haggis anywhere, whenever you see the Fathom machine. So, you know what? I say this to your original question, who got bumped? If you weren't on the list, it doesn't mean you don't do a good job at a machine. It doesn't mean you don't do a good job as a streamer, as a blogger, as a podcaster. It means nothing. Nothing at all. It means you probably didn't beg for votes like a lot of people do. And it means something to them. Great. Fill your boots. I like the acknowledgments when you get, Marty, when people buy your machine and say, holy shit, this is well put together. It's fun to play. It pops in my rec room, all that kind of stuff. That is worth a million times more than any piece of plastic. Yeah, and as far as the podcast goes, every time someone sends us an email... That means more to us. ...and causes a cunt, that means more than anything. But it genuinely does. It actually does. You don't care. I don't care. Dennis Griesel will send us once in a while the downloads and all that stuff. I guess we do well for whenever we do a show. Thank you. That means something to us. Yeah, for sure. still listen to us great fine awesome that's all that matters that is all that matters the emails the the back and forth the fun we have with you know i'm about to go to indisc and i'm about to see hundreds and hundreds of people and i guarantee several will come up to me and talk about love what you're doing on final round like what you're doing maybe on pinball profile where's marty that's the stuff that means stuff to me yep yep there you go we're done let's move on from to a reason. I think it's hilarious. You dick. I know. I'm that. I've lost my sheet where... This wasn't even on the sheet. You popped this in. I know. Okay. How about the holidays? I mean, did you have a good time? I was sick throughout the holidays. Uh-oh. Not COVID. I did so many tests. I didn't get COVID. I think it was one of those... Have you ever been in a situation where you've worked and worked and worked and worked and worked, as soon as you have a day off, your body packs in and you get a cold. That's sort of how it felt. It was sort of like my body just going, you know what? You've done so well. You know what? We're really proud. Here's a round of applause. You've held up well. But now that you've got 10 days off, how about we just fuck you over so then you can go back to work? And that's what happened. I was exhausted. I was fatigued. I got a cold. But then when I went back to work, I was like, yeah, I'm refreshed. well you've been working your butt off and that's part of the reason it's me being away it's you working so much uh that's why we have not been as frequent as possible we're doing pretty good three in a row here back to back to back not bad not bad not bad but yeah i mean we're busy souls and you more so i mean i have not had that same type of sickness because it would require to me to work my butt off for 10 straight days like you said that just hasn't happened so you on the other and go, go, go. And yeah, I'm glad you're feeling better. But for me here in Canada, we got snowed in kind of Christmas day. I didn't get to see my kids until the 29th, but it doesn't matter. It's just a day on the calendar. Had a great time. It was nice. And now the calendar has changed and things are going to be different. By the way, loved, loved the head-to-head episode. Yeah, it was fun. I mean, you recorded that after recording the last final round episode and you were into the sauce. And I want to point out, it might be my favorite food ever, and I have not had one piece of bacon since. Yeah. Thank you for that. I will never look at grilled bacon ever again the same way. Greatest joke I've ever... I was crying. It wasn't a joke. It was actually a real story. That's what's funny about it. From the mouth of children. Oh, my gosh. I just... It was hilarious. Oh, God. Listen to Head to Head. And do more of them. Maybe that's your New Year's resolution. Maybe do two a year. Well, we have often talked about doing two a year, but it's hard enough having to do this podcast, let alone that one as well. Oh, is it hard doing two podcasts? I don't know. Is it really? Well, two good podcasts. Ta-da! There it is. You know, I feel if there is a need for us to do another head-to-head during the year, we'll do it. But as we sort of said on head-to-head, But every year I would normally see Ryan often and I would talk to him often. 2022, I saw him probably twice and didn't really speak that much, just obviously because we're both busy. So that was really good for us to just catch up because we hadn't caught up. Well, you've been busy at work and he's been busy prepping the next Jesse J's pinball adventure, I believe. So congratulations on Jesse J. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Congratulations for sure on her engagement. So 2023, here we are. I think it's happening in Australia. I'm sure it is. I think it's happening all over the world. The state and provincial and country championships are all happening this month, in the third week of January in North America. Same situation kind of for you there in Australia? Yep. Yeah. So it's a go, go, go to make the championships. It's what you, I guess, fight for or play for. It was exciting the first time you made the, for me, my provincial championships years and years ago. I saw how close it was. I'm like, okay, a few more tournaments, a few more good results. You know, you get to these events, whether it's this type of tournament or any big tournament, like in this coming week, and you see people that are there for the first time, and they have to play somebody, and you're like, oh, no. And I always say to those people, anybody can win on any given day. Anybody can lose on any given day. Don't write yourself off as, oh, I've got to play such and such a person. Because the same thing can happen when you're a top-ranked player and you're like, oh, I've got an easy round. This is nobody. This person's not ranked. You're about to get your ass whipped on that half. Can I just say how enjoyable it is when I'm watching the streams of these things when the underdog just either wins or just comes so close? What it does, as you said, it just means that anybody will look at this and say, hang on, that could be me. I could have actually won this because I could have had a great day and that person could have had a bad day. Yeah, I've seen that like three times in the last few years that really pop in my head. The first time was at Cleapin, and this guy from North Carolina was just killing it. Oh, my gosh, he's the top-ranked player. Not top-ranked player. He's got the most points, and he's leading the leaderboards. Who the hell is this Bill Mason guy? Well, now we all know how great he is, but it was kind of the first time he traveled. This past year in May, there was a big pre-World IFPA 17 event. I mean a massive event. So you've got the best players from all over the world playing this. And this young woman who had never really played much until she started, I think, maybe once COVID ended. Sierra Leifert, I think her last name is. Please forgive me if I pronounce it wrong, but I know Sierra is the first name. and she almost took out everyone. She went to the finals with Trent Augenstein and just destroyed everyone. So that kind of excitement is what you're talking about. And the other one was a year ago, the first time everyone outside of Colorado saw this guy named Walt Wood and just blow up Doctor Who and was exciting. And those are the kind of stories I like. And I'm sure we'll see some this week at Indisc. Yeah, I look forward to it. It's next on my list. Godzilla review oh yeah so you said Brian and you haven't seen much of each other over the last little while although he did make a little trip to your house to drop off Godzilla because you've been dissing it you've been shitting all over it I think under your breath you've said Keith is the worst designer ever in history I did not that is not true that was not under my breath come on I've got the game. Ryan has the game. So many people. It's the number one seller. It's the Twippy Award winner for Game of the Year, so it has to be the best game from last year. It has to be, based on that. It is a fucking great game, but, Marty, you've had some time on it. What do we think? Okay. So, I've tried to really... I love the pause. Okay, because the last time you did it... Here's my review of Led Zeppelin. It is a pinball game that exists. So go ahead, Godzilla. I'll be quiet. The reason why the pause is there is because I have been thinking now, ever since this machine has been here at my house, how am I going to articulate my feelings and thoughts towards this game? So this is what I'm going to start by saying. It is a phenomenal game. It is without a doubt one of the best games that ever been made according to a lot of people Oh there the pause There the pause There it is There it is Let me tell you what good about it I think some of the shots just feel great, right? There's a lot of kinetic satisfaction. I think the layout and geometry is really innovative. It just does some things that are just crazy good, right? Yeah. Sure. That's fine. Good. What else is good about it? Marty, what do you think of the code? That is what I care about the most for someone who codes games himself. And not just this. This isn't about what I care. This is what potential Haggis customers care about when they want to know what's Marty thinking because he's going to be coding games. What's he thinking? Okay. so the the code is okay here's what i want to say before i go into what i think about the code here's what i really want to say i now understand why everybody thinks this is the best game that's ever been made and also i just want to make a note i have had the most amount of direct messages ever in a week since I dissed Godzilla and also when Ryan said that I was going to get Godzilla. I've had so many messages from people saying I'm an idiot, that this is the reason why Godzilla is a fantastic game. And I get it. Here's what I want to say. And I don't want to be disrespectful to anybody. And I say that because normally I couldn't give a fuck, right? But this time I'm genuinely saying this because I don't want this to come across as me being a fuckwit, right? But I understand why this game is considered the best game. Because it is designed to be the most accessible game that Stern's ever made. The shots can be made. Modes can be gotten into. Lights can happen. You get constantly rewarded. Constantly. You fucking hit... You miss your shot. There's a fanfare. You are constantly drip-fed reward. So no wonder you are feeling like you've played the best game, because this game is telling you that you are having a good time. Regardless of what you're doing, everything that you do feeds back something to the player. It is a masterclass in player feedback. There it is. Masterclass. I don't think Stern has ever had a game where they have choreographed the fuck out of a game where the timing of everything is so precise that you are just getting a high constantly, little micro moments through the game. And then when you start, you know, the multiball and the big tower goes up and down, you're fed the rumble and the, oh, my God. But behind that, there's not a lot. But as a player, you're made to feel like something amazing is happening all the time. There you go. So I'm trying to figure out your thinking. When you say you miss something, you're being rewarded. Like, I know there's, hey, listen, you can get Tesla Strike. You can get bridge, you can get tanks, you can get jets. There's lots of stuff. You can't miss anything. There's always something to eat. There's the saucer, the cannon. There's a lot of stuff there. I get that. I don't want to say it's a difficult game because I think the way the flippers are set, I know how you hate that, but I think that makes it a little more challenging at times for people. I do find it a long-playing game compared to something else. I was watching Carl stream on IE Pinball, and he was streaming Rush Premium. And people in the chat were saying, what's harder, Rush or Godzilla? And Carl said, Godzilla. And almost every single person in the chat said, no, no, no, no, no. Rush is way harder. And I think so too. So I'm kind of getting your reward thing there. But I know you can be punished when you use the upper flipper like all Keith's games, right? If you miss your upper flipper shot and you do – you miss, you could be in some trouble unless you really miss and get tail whipped. But interesting. Okay. You would have seen – I posted the video on Head to Head, and we reposted that on Photo Round. I played one game. That game went for over an hour, and I got – I don't know. It was a $3.3 billion game. and that would have been a lot more had I known what I was shooting for when I got into some of the battles with multiple monsters and some of the mini wizard modes. It should have been a lot higher had I known what I was doing. But I went through so much of that game. I saw so much just on the one game. I stopped the game, obviously took that video, and just went, okay, I'm done. I'm done. I saw way too much. I didn't remember when I was talking about that whole you want to have that just one more game feel? Yes I didn't get that I would never get that after an hour long game though on any machine No I know but why did I have an hour long game? I'm not that good Okay that's not true and that's why I'm wondering if when you're critical of this and I'm critical of something like Elvira I have to step back and realize Marty you're a good player that's why you do so well it godzilla i'm a good player that's why i do well elvira a lot of people are not as good as us and they have enjoyment because they get like you say rewarded for missing or okay you know maybe you went for the building but hey i got tesla that's great you know or i got a tank or yeah something like that there's so many spit there's three spinners on the thing you're gonna hit something yeah again what i did appreciate is and i also streamed it after about a week after and so i've now got to understand the code a lot more and i really do the summary is i do now appreciate godzilla a lot more than i did before i would never own it i don't i just don't think there's enough light and shade for me i think it's just on all the time and i think that that's what they've done i think stern have probably gone into this saying we need to make a game that as many people as possible will enjoy dial down the difficulty make the rules a little bit more accessible and there is so much in this game there is so many different things that you can do i i think that they've as i said they've just nailed the feedback so whoever did the code on that game i don't know who it is even though i think there's too much code i think the way that you are feeding back to the player moments and the feeling of success you've absolutely nailed it and that's why i think that most people like this game because most people are going to get something out of the game there you go keith made the rules rick nagel did the code and um you know one of my favorite things about the code i mean i i really love what jerry did with the sound and i'm a huge fan and this never ever really pops for me ever on any game. It did on Haggis and it does on this game. What am I talking about? I don't know. The GI. I never pay attention to that ever. But when your end of ball and you hear the footsteps and the way the lights go and stuff and then when he roars the way it kind of shakes it's really well done. It's one of my favorite things to watch and I never give a shit about that stuff. I'm all about gameplay but that really that pops for me and um it kind of brings me into we're gonna we're gonna talk about a lot of things but we're gonna definitely talk about james bond but as i'm talking about that kind of things that pop for me i look at games that are maybe eye candy and and godzilla has definitely got eye candy on it fathom has eye candy on it i look at art and and there's so many good artists out there and of course it's extremely subjective but what i really look for in art isn't doesn't have to be real. It can be cartoon. It doesn't, you know, I don't like the cut and paste stuff. But what I really look for, believe it or not, is where the art is used and the spacing. You know, you've got this canvas, if you will, of the play field and here's where a pop bumper is going to go. Here's where a scoop is going to go. So you have to kind of work all around that. The biggest skill for an artist, to me, is not the actual art itself. It's the placement and using that play field as a canvas and utilizing the space to a T. You know, I love the art on Deadpool. I find it very full. Maybe almost too much, but it's spectacular. Whereas something like Godzilla, I'm like, oh, geez, this is perfect. This is really, it's everything's in the right spot, you know. That's what I look at. I agree with you. And we've talked about this before, though. I think in recent times, probably, okay. And this is the challenge that I think the artists have, is how do you incorporate the theme art and pinball art? So pinball art is things like borders around inserts. Does that make sense? Yes. So how do you incorporate inserts into pinball art? And I would say games like, I would say Godzilla definitely nails it. Rush nails it. Scooby-Doo. Avengers nails it. So does Scooby-Doo. but I think Elvira is probably the best for me. It's pretty good. Even though it's quite busy, but it's busy with pinball art. You know what I mean? Not so much the theme art, even though that is there as well, but it's really good pinball art as well. Wizard of Oz is one of the all-time best to me. Yeah, agreed. For me, Hobbit, for me, I think, has just got this really good mix of theme art and pinball art. Really nailed it, I think. But that's where I think 007 suffers. And I'm not talking about the new one. I'm talking about all of them. It suffers because... And Star Wars was the same, where there was a bit too much... We need all these things, just plop them on. Okay, they're on. That's what James Bond and the Star Wars one was, for sure. whereas Led Zeppelin's like, we've got nothing, so we'll just put nothing on there. But you're right. The Bond one is, you know, I think of the pro, the Dr. No cab. It's yellow. On the left side of the cab, it's kind of, you know, it certainly is a throwback to the 1962 movies and that art. I don't know if it works in 2023. Whereas the other side, oh, it's movie posters. I'm cool with that. The back glass doesn't do it for me. And then, like you say, the play field, it's like we've got to put all these things on. And it just popped on there with no real, what? Where am I going? What am I doing? I'm seeing a million faces and different movie titles. Yeah, I don't get it. I know. The new one, so we've had a chance to look at the LE. Really, I love the whole cabinet for sure. I'm a fan of that. I haven't seen the topper work yet. I guess it lights up and stuff. but we're talking about just the art. I liked seeing the six James Bond actors. I think the odd job hat is pretty cool in the middle there. Looks kind of neat. It's cleaner than the Pro and the Premium, I think. But now we've got to talk about other things. Okay. So let's talk about 007. I'm just trying to get a picture of the layout just so I can talk to it. Do you want to know my thoughts on the 60th anniversary limited edition James Bond pinball machine? Yes, and I'm hoping, fingers crossed. I messaged Keith. I said, well done. Can I borrow $20,000? And he pointed out it was only $19,999. Thank you, Keith. Plus tax. yeah all right fine the thing i'm hoping with that is you remember when they shipped stranger things and afterwards you found out holy shit they actually put this uv kit in there when like and they didn't tell you about it like you found that out after the fact i'm hoping with those four spinners there are actual diamonds in the spinners okay here are some thoughts over $20,000 for this. What a waste of Keith Irwin's talent. Jack Danger's home pin looks better than this. Heck, I'd buy Primus. Another thought I have is, looks like a home pin. Stern's most expensive home pin, with Led Zeppelin being the second. Another thought is, the distributors bought them. It seems these days, they'll put whatever spin they want to say... Sorry, I'm trying to read this. I knew it. You're reading this. I knew this. These are my... I'm just like, so you know, these are my favourite comments that people have said. It's sold out, meaning the distributors bought them. It seems these days they'll put whatever spin on it they want to say that. Just poor business model. Games just aren't what they used to be. It's supreme for James Bond superfans, not for Stern's core customers. That's what the Gomez Bonds are for. When their decisions are bad for the hobby, and in my opinion, disrespectful to the people that support them, then don't expect not to have criticism about it. Did you know that today they took out the price from the website? I wonder why. The reason is, of course, to give the opportunity to distributors to fix the price for them and sell the game cheaper. And what about the suckers that bought it already for $22,000? Well, that will do it. This is the most expensive game Stern has done so far. The most expensive by far. And with that in mind, it should include everything we love about pinball. For a total cost of $22,000, it should have upper playfield, lower playfield, ramps and extra ramps, many moving mechanisms, and in general everything we love about pinball. Instead we got this and 500 suckers that bought it. The hobby is indeed a very weird place and definitely Stern's target group is not anymore the hardcore pinheads but people with a lot of money which they just don't care. I love Keith Owen, but there's no way I'm spending $20,000 on one machine. That's nearly the cost of three pros and is over the cost of two premiums. I'm almost done. Seems like another Beatles Diamond Edition cash grab. I'm sure it plays great, but I don't see it holding $20,000 value at 500 units. If Totan and TNA had a baby, it would be this. Imagine buying a $20,000 pin without any premium or LE mods besides the LE tag. Ha ha ha. Would be a cool home pin buy. What the fuck are they thinking here? Microsoft paint side art, no LE premium anything, no expression lighting, $10,000 side armor, $5,000 shooter knob, stock, and it probably doesn't even have a shaker motor. I love how the scoring is EM style, but it's not EM style too. Lol. Epic fail. Okay, I swear I'm almost done, but I've had so much fun with this. Where are you getting this? The internet. Like Pinside, Facebook, all the above? Facebook mainly. I don't go to Pinside. Okay, let's just be real here. This is absolute horseshit. $20,000. You make a collector's game at the highest price on the market, and what do you get? fucking clipart, copy and paste graphics and a single layer no innovation layout. Stern is clearly looking to only take people's money from customers with just too much money to know better and that's wrong. So tired of seeing collectors and signature special editions and they just throw crap at a wall and produce junk. There's nothing special about this game. So frustrating because Stern is supposed to be the big designers and manufacturer. When are they going to get back to making games worth their price? Just terrible business practice. I had so much more. Don't you have to get to four pillars? It says, I've been impressed. Too much hype. What happened to the mechanical reels? They're digital. Also, the ball lock on the right looks a lot like the Denise lock from TNA. Okay, they are mechanical reels. No, I know. That's why I thought I'd read that one out. And there's another one that says, oh, isn't that the Beatles layout? So the summary of it is this. Let's not talk about price just for a second. Can we? Just not talk about price. Okay, price doesn't matter. Price doesn't matter. I want to play the fuck out of this game. So do I. Oh, my God. This looks so much fun, except for the hat in the middle. I'm not a fan of. But, no, I don't like it. I don't like those spinny disc things. I do. No, I know, but that's subjective. But as far as layout goes, it looks, oh, my God, so much fun. It just kind of reminds me of, obviously, got the street-level games, but single-level playfields from that era, in particular, I think Gottlieb games, which I'm a massive fan of. I just look at this playfield and I just think about shot satisfaction. This is going to play so well. That's what I think. Take note, designers, because once again, game number five, Keith has done what he is a big fan of and what maybe should be done more of. You know, they talk about flow and stuff like that. Keith has said flow is overrated. Look at all those shots. There isn't an orbit shot. You're not going to come back around. You're not going to do loop passes. If you shoot what looks like an orbit, it's going to come into a different spot. You know, the right side comes through the middle, I guess. I love that he does things like that. Yeah, it looks fantastic. By the way, if money's not an issue, everybody wants this game. Project Pinball, in less than two hours, sold out $200 raffle tickets. I didn't start it there. They sold 200 of them at $200. People want this machine big time. So the only issue really, really is money because it looks pretty awesome. If money was not an issue for me, I'd have it in a heartbeat because I like the theme. I love Keith's layouts. Four spinners. some of those comments you read. I want an upper and a lower playfield. No, I don't. No, I do not want those things. Speak for yourself and that's fine. But I don't want that crap. Once again, spinners are better than ramps. No. Come on, man. Nope. When you can make the spinners juice... No, Stein. I just disagree. No, I know. This is just... I don't... I love the fact that it's got lots of spinners. I'm just saying I prefer games that have got ramps and spinners. That's all. I just think spinners are fine. But I would prefer a ramp. But that doesn't mean... It's not right or wrong. It's not good or bad. I do like games with ramps. However, however, people, we've got so many fucking games with ramps, right? If you want a game with ramps, go crazy. There's so many games out there that you can get. To have a game... And this is... Okay. Let me go back to my favourite quote, right? Which was the first one. My favourite quote. Here it is. Over $20,000 for this? What a waste of Keith Elwin's talent. Jack Danger's home pin looks better than this. Heck, I'd buy Primus. That is fucking stupid. There you go. I've said it. I have a take on this. Okay. This is my opinion. 500 of those machines are going to sell out 20 10 million dollars in sales now I realize distributors are going to get their cut and all that kind of thing million in sales to produce 500 of these Yeah Okay If I Keith Elwin, get the hell out of your Stern contract immediately because you are the greatest free agent anybody could have. You could work for everybody. You should set up Keith Elwin Productions and not be licensed to just one person. Because here in 2023, we've already been told by George Gomez, there is not going to be a Keith Elwin game. There wasn't in 2022. You cannot count this. The last one we got was in 20... What? When was Godzilla? 2021? Yeah, that should have been. So we've got to wait three years for maybe a Keith Elwin game, if it's not one of these boutique games, if you will. Designers get commission on what they sell, okay? It's how sales works. Okay. Is that 100% factual? Just go with it. I know the answer. Just go with it. Okay, sure. You're not being able to sell your games. That's money out of your pocket, Keith. You should be going to anybody. You should go to Haggis. You should go to American. You should go to Jersey. You should go to Spooky. You can go to anybody. Go to Punny Factory for all I care. Whatever they're called, Pinball Adventures. Keith has said, I can make a game in nine months. You should have your games on the line at all times. And I know that's the case right now because Godzillas are being done. Maidens are being done. I assume Jurassic are being done. They're all being done. That's all fine. But you're leaving money on the table. And you're a buddy of mine. And I want to see you the richest person in pinball because you deserve every penny of it, in my opinion. But do you think that Keith wants to be the richest person? Like, you're assuming that people then put a dollar value on his satisfaction. No, no, no. I'm not assuming that. I'm speaking for myself. But you're saying he should go because he could earn more money. He should be Keith Elwin Productions, not an employee of CERN. But for what purpose? But what purpose? Listen, CERN's not going to say, oh, we want exclusivity. If you work for someone else, we can't have you. Bullshit. Every shareholder of CERN's going to say, we'll take a Keith Elwin game whenever we can get it. And now we've got to wait how many years in between games? I know what you're saying. I'm just trying to say that you've said he should do this because he could earn more money. Well, he's being denied by not being able to have a game. But why does he care? Why does he care? Why does he care? You're assuming that he cares about the fact that he's being denied money. He may actually be the happiest he has ever been. I hope so. Okay, the reason why I say this is because what's happening with all these responses is people are projecting their own values onto the situation. So I go back to that last quote where people are saying, what a waste of Keith Irwin's talents. and I say that's bullshit because I reckon making a game with ramps is so much easier than making a single level play field that shoots really well. So I don't see this as being a waste of his talent at all. I don't either. No, but that's what I'm saying. Like all these people are going, oh, it's like a bullshit. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Take price out of it. Just for a second, have a look at this. This is possibly going to be one of the most fun games you will ever play. I don't know that. For a fact, I've not played it. It looks that it's going to be so much fun. That is not a waste of Keith Elwin's talent. I think Keith Elwin is the only person that could possibly carry this, that could actually make this happen. You know what I mean? Like, Sten have gone into saying, we want to do a 60th anniversary, we want to make a street-level game, it's going to have all the bonds. Who's the only person that can really make this happen? Keith Elwin. Do you get what I mean by that? And so I think people are looking at this and saying, well, I'm priced out of this. Therefore, it's a bad thing. Therefore, everything sucks. The sky is falling. Skyfall. See what I did there? No? Okay. That's good. Yeah, cool. Cool, cool. That's what I'm sort of saying. And when you say things like, well, Keith Elwin should get out of Stern, why? He may be the happiest he's been. No, no, no. Hold on a second. You said that. I think he should get out of the Stern exclusivity contract. Well, it's not that he's a Stern exclusivity contract. He's an employee of Stern. That's different. I think you should say, this is my commission rate. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to build for whoever I want and make a freaking mint. And you can't tell me one second. If you didn't own Haggis, you wouldn't say, Keith, please do a design for us. You would. Spooky would. American would. Jersey Jack would. everybody would because his game cell you know he's going to come up with something that no one else has done and i'm not shitting on any other designers i love almost everything we see out there i like that but there's something special about what keith does and he can call his own shots and now he doesn't get to produce a game for a few years money's left on the table and maybe you're right maybe it doesn't matter to him but listen i i deal a lot in sports and we talk sports analogies we talk about contracts and this and that do we i do in my sports analogies i can tell you i don't and it's all about value and yeah there is not a more important more valuable employee than Keith Elwin wherever he works it happens to be at stern right now and and i hope he works wherever he wants and he's happy wherever he wants and you know what stern produces a lot They produce more than anyone else, so maybe that's the best place. But having him on the sidelines when he's probably got the next game and maybe the next two games done, that kind of sucks. That's the thing that sucks for me. Sucks for who? For you as a player that wants to play more of his games? It sucks for everybody that buys pinball machines that loves Keith Elwin games. Okay, but he's not a robot. What do you mean he's not a robot? He can't just produce games every six months because that's what you want. We have a shelf life of how long we can do things, and Keith's over 50 years old, so yeah, he can do it for another 20 years. Hey, I'm being serious, but he could give us just game after game after game, and we've got to wait. Yeah. And listen, look at this fucking game. It's a single-level game, so people, oh, where are my ramps and all that stuff? Oh, it's $20,000. Sold out instantly. It's gone. Yeah, okay. It's because it's Keith. But if he just starts pumping out games, you're going to have the Avengers effect, which is a game, that's Keith Elwin, that just gets overshadowed because the next one comes out and everyone's talking about that instead. There's something to be said about leaving people wanting. I've talked about that. I've talked about that. Sure. That was my bloodhound gang analogy that I gave. So when you're going, oh, you know, I just wish there was more, Stern are probably rubbing their hands together going, good, very good. Shareholders are going, when? when i want it now yeah of course but it comes back to then you saying well Keith Elwin he should be unhappy with what he's got right now i didn't say he did no i didn't say he should no i did not say he should be unhappy i said there's money being left on the table and he would only be happy if he's getting that money rewind the tape you said you said do i think he's unhappy i said No, I'm just saying what I would do if I were him because there's great opportunities out there. Fuck, man. He's the best. That's what I'm saying. So you're now projecting your values on the Keith Elwin situation. I said it was mine. I know. But Keith Elwin is a human. He's probably sitting there going, fucking stop talking about my life. I'm just here fucking designing games. Like my games, stop telling me how much money I should earn and what I should do with my life. Fuck. Okay. Do you not think when Gomez said, coming out in 2023, we're going to see a Jack Danger game? Great. We're going to see a Brian Eddy game? Great. So no new Borg game? Okay. Rush was, now we've got to wait a while for Borg because Rush came out in January or December over a year ago. We've got to wait a while for that. And we've got to wait for Keith because not everyone can buy this Keith game. You don't think Keith was a little bummed that, holy fuck, my game's been done for a while and I've got to sit and wait? No. I died. Because he may be actually just sitting on the best game that's ever been made. And he's like, I don't want to rush this because this is going to be best. Don't forget, don't forget, his last game, let's take Bond out of it, his last game was Godzilla. Godzilla has been considered the best game in the world. Do you think he's just going to stick any old crap out? He's got to improve on what he's done. I don't think he has ever put any old crap out. I think he's got a lot of ideas. And I think right now is the sweet spot. And because we're seeing so few games a year, we talked about it on the last episode, maybe, what, seven titles in a year, and Keith's not going to be one of them? That's disappointing. And that is, as I said earlier, leaving money on the table. For not only Keith, but also for the shareholders. Yeah, I don't think anyone's complaining about money at this stage. I get that, but is that not the game to answer to shareholders and say, you know, okay, our profits are down this week or this quarter because... Are their profits down? I didn't say that. I'm just saying, are you telling me shareholders wouldn't want a Keith Elwin game as soon as possible? What I'm saying is I am not a shareholder. How would I know? If I owned shares in Stern, I would want a Keith Elwin game, and I think most people would because of the unbelievable gotta have it it's going to play great it's everything you want you don't have to worry it's going to sell okay but do you know what Stern's sales numbers are? like did Rush sell as many as Avengers as Godzilla? I would say Godzilla sold more look at the production lines yeah but how do you know? but like no one knows I'll tell you why look at the production lines how many times has Godzilla been on production? Yeah, but Rush is still in production. It has not been on as much as Godzilla has. And you can look at that because you know they're going to make X amount of games per day. So how long has it been done? Those numbers are known. Nice try, fucko. No, they're not known, though. They are not known. Because if they're known, you would give me a number. What's the absolute number of what they've produced? Do you know who does know? Do you? Do you know who does know? Do you know? The designers know. Sure. Well, let's get them on. I've got Keith here. They are not going to reveal that right now. Right, but you don't know. Right. No, I don't know. This is my point. My point is... Yeah, I don't know publicly. You're right. No, that's right. But the point I'm making in all of this is everyone's a fucking critic. Everyone's a fucking expert. No, you're not. You don't know. You don't know what... Like, everyone's saying, oh, Stern's fucking shitting on the community. One of them was someone saying they're disrespectful and they're, you know, whatever it was. I'm trying to find that. Those are comments about the price. I'm talking about the man who's the best designer we have seen in, like, his night and day. And there are great designers out there. We're in the best time of pinball. But there's something about Keith. It's just. No, but this is, I know you say that. And so does most people. Come on. Sure. For whatever reason, right? But I think Rush is a better game than Godzilla. So therefore, I think John Borg is just as good a designer as Keith Elwin. Is that a valid opinion? I can't disagree with you about Rush. I enjoy playing Rush as much as I enjoy playing Godzilla. So they are equal to me. I think based on productions, based on sales, based on the theme, because Rush is a polarizing theme for some people, just like Iron Maiden was. because Iron Maiden, you know, we've got to swap out the music because it's not my cup of tea. I get that with Rush. I get that with Maiden or with any band. Sure. But you just said Keith Elwin is the best designer. It's night and day. I don't think that's fair. Come on, Marty. I'm not playing this game. This isn't ones and zeros, but this isn't ones and zeros. Come on, Marty. He is not the best by far. He is the best. I'm going to say that. I think he's the best. There we go. That's all you have to say. But I'm not saying he's the best and it's night and day and all the others are shit. that's what you said. Not in exactly those words, but you know what I mean? I think that's disrespectful. I think that George Gomez, I think George Gomez is probably the best designer in the world. He's just not designing as many games. Okay. I think, I think he is a great designer. Yeah. I don't think he's as good as Keith. I'll say it. Sure. Okay. That's fine. I think he's got a longer history, of course. Yep. He's got some epic games, but, uh, sorry. Here we go. Sports analogy. Oh, okay. Everybody's a free agent. You get to pick one designer. You're telling me you're not picking Keith? You're picking George Gomez? Bullshit. You're picking Keith, number one overall draft pick. Don't, come on, you can't even pretend to find a way that Keith's not the guy. You're safe. You know everyone's going to be happy. No, if you're talking safe. He's the guy who comes with the rules. Uniqueness. No, I know what you mean. He actually has the ability to do it all, which is... He just did a masterpiece in a single-level play field. Boom, there you go. Yeah. None of us have played it, so we still don't know if it is the best game that's street-level. I didn't say it's the best game, but it's certainly not yet another version of what we've seen before. But you said it's a masterpiece. Is it a masterpiece? We don't know. We're speculating because we're in the business of speculating. That's why we do a podcast. If we weren't speculating, we'd have nothing to talk about. Good point. So, you know, I think you can tell we're both passionate about what's going on. I just want to say, if I can summarize my feelings about this, is that this is a fantastic game. Okay? Yeah. For those people that bought it, it means that amount of money is they're getting value for whatever they put down. And for you to make people feel shit because they bought it, then that's on you. Not me. You're talking about those things you write. I'm talking about the people, all the comments, right? Because I know a couple of people that have bought one. So do I. And my response was, fantastic. It looks like a cracker of a game. And you know what? $20,000 is a lot of money I mean that's $30,000 here in Australia right? That's a lot of money, right? It's a lot of money. It's way too much money for a pinball machine for me, possibly for you and for a lot of people but there are 500 people where it's not that much. If it was $20,000 and there was an endless run of them, it's ridiculous the $20,000 is because there are only 500 that's it. And those people that bought one, they're going to feel good because they've got something that's special that most people don't have. When you buy art and you see it's done by an artist and you see in the bottom right-hand corner it's a limited edition slash out of 100 or something like that, it's worth more than just something that's mass-produced. So there is the value there. I don't think you're going to see these on Pinsight or any of the marketplaces coming up in the next year or two or three under $20,000. So again, congrats and well done. And if money wasn't an issue, I'd have one in a heartbeat. Oh, in a heartbeat. I just, I'm so proud of Keith being able to show people a single level play field is not just a bunch of shit. Like, it can really be exciting. And we haven't played it. We haven't seen gameplay of it. No, I know. Looking at it, I'm like, okay. Here's a perfect example. The other Bond, the pro and the premium. I like the layout. It looks pretty good. And I've played a bunch of it. I'm going to wait playing it until the code is there. Because the shots are fun. There's things to do. But the code just is not there yet. And I have all the faith in the world. We've talked about it before. If it shoots good, code will come. It'll get there. That's going to be a great game too. From your boy, George Gomez. Yeah, your number one draft pick. Come on, man. You tell me. For me it would be Borg I would pick Borg for a safe bet Number one overall You're just saying that to me It's like the Rolling Stone Best 200 Singers list Leaving Celine Dion off that Give me a fucking break Who else was off that list What are you talking about Rolling Stone magazine had a list of the 200 greatest singers of all time Celine Dion didn't make the list Come on man Diana Ross didn't make the list give me a break. Yeah, those lists are designed to make people angry. Just like you saying, John Borg's my number one pick. No, but I'm not saying that. I didn't say he was the best designer. I just said if I wanted a safe bet, I'd go Borg. I get your point. They're always, yeah, you know what you're getting. You know what you're getting. I feel great with, and as I said, if I look at Elwynn's games, and this is just me and I'm not trying to be oppositional, Iron Maiden, fantastic game. I sold it. Jurassic Park, I would, if I could have my time again, meaning I didn't need the money at the time, I would still have Jurassic Park in my collection. I think that's one of the best games that's ever been made. Avengers, Godzilla, am I missing any of the others? Just the Bond Ellie. And Bond Ellie. And Archer. But you know what I mean? You're saying he's the best. I don't think so. Sorry, Keith. I love you. Want to do you. But I... I... I just... He's got a passport now, so free sex if you come over. Come over to Aussie. Seriously. Come down under for a little down under. All right, here we go. Come down under. Wow. No. This is the first podcast ever to offer free blowjobs. This is the best. I did not say they were free. what I'm saying is that for me personally I'm not there yet you are, a lot of people are that's great I still look at the 20 or so years that John Borg has put out games and I go, you've earned it for me I reckon Keith will get there but give me some more is he at least a seasoned veteran? that's all I want to know he is too he's not, he's released 4 games five games season veteran it's just no i just i cannot buy into that do we have other shit on here you saw you saw avatar didn't you i did i haven't seen it i'm going this weekend okay i mean do you want to know like i can see on the show notes it says movie review avatar do you want to know or are you like me where you don't want to know anything before going to see a movie let me tell you what I know about Avatar 2 and the original movie. I saw the original movie on an IMAX screen, was enamored by the eye candy that was watching this kind of a new revolution of 3D movies. I plan on doing that again. I can't remember what the hell the movie was about, and I haven't seen it since. I not saying it bad I just that was a fun ride but that not something I really recall and even whatever big screen you have at home i just have no desire to see it again i guess i want to see what all the hype's about because it looks pretty cool i don't want to drink a lot of pop while i'm sitting watching that movie because underwater you can't i'm gonna piss myself but i do want to see it okay so i'll try and say something without giving anything away here's marty's movie review Avatar 2 is a movie that exists. Yes, it has actors. It involves a screen. Okay, I saw the first movie four times at the cinema. One of your all-time favourites, isn't it? It is absolutely one of my all-time favourites. But I saw it at the cinema four times because I saw it in 3D at the cinema. And there was just nothing like it. Like, as far as visuals go, there was no other movie I'd ever felt like I was in the movie. Was there much of a storyline of the original? No. It's not meant to be. It's kind of like the Godzilla of movies, in that it's meant to appeal to everybody. It's not meant to challenge you. I don't remember what it's about, isn't it? If I recall, wasn't it just something to do with mining and people wanting to take over the... Basically, like, correct me if I'm wrong, because I really don't know, but just how shitty we treat indigenous people, for example. Is that not what the movie's about? Basically, the movie is about how humans are garbage people. Yes, yes. We are just not very good. No respect for... When there's greed involved, we will do anything and don't care about others, right? So it's basically the history of humans, really, is what it is. So they're on Pandora. they're mining unobtainium and the indigenous people of the Navi and they're basically killing them, they don't care, whatever that's really it that was the first movie that was the first movie is the second movie about pulling plastic straws out of turtles noses underwater what is going on in part 2 it's more of the same oh ok and I kept thinking, because everyone was saying it's exactly the same movie except it's underwater First of all, it's not underwater. There are some underwater things, but it's not underwater. So get that out of your head. It's kind of set like 20 years after the first movie. So if you remember the last movie, the main character, Sully was his name, maybe? Jake Sully? Could be. Wasn't Sully in Monsters, Inc.? Yeah, I also think Sully was in Uncharted. but Jake Sully is the main character's name Sam Worthington's character he ended up hooking up with a Na'vi chick and that was really the end you know I see you blah blah blah he ended up becoming a proper Na'vi how that happened so this movie is set 20 years later and it's got a family okay that's all I'm going to tell you should I see it oh fuck yeah oh fuck yeah oh good oh fuck fuck fuck fuck you know I was really reluctant to see it because I've got that whole Moby sequel phobia problem. It goes for three hours and 12 minutes. Holy mother. Intermission? No intermission. Three hours and 12 minutes. And I kept thinking to myself... I'm bringing a bucket. So don't drink anything. I made sure I had lots of food, but I did not drink any liquids whatsoever. So don't have popcorn because popcorn's full of salt. Have lots of chocolatey and lollies. so you don't need to tell me how to treat my body i'm sat well no fine how dare you project that on me fine go there big tub of popcorn and have a big pop as well good and then go and do a piss and miss one of the most important scenes in the movie give me the piss time every movie gives you like a it's like it's like when bands play all right we got three new songs to play for you you know you can go get a beer when's the time you go take a piss in the movie there's got to be some On Google. Yeah, it do. But that's, yeah, absolutely. I said I was worried about seeing it, and I loved it. Loved it. Is it as good as the first? Of course it is. But the first was so revolutionary, it's very hard to have that same sort of wow. Visually, is it better? Yeah, and 13 years have passed. The graphics, you can tell 13 years have passed. It is gorgeous to look at. And again, I'd recommend it in 3D. Spoiler alert, it is a James Cameron movie. So in this Way of the Water sequel, do you actually see the Titanic? That would be fucking cool. Good callback. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, when I got to the end and after three hours, I was thinking, well, to make that a shorter movie, what could you have gotten rid of? and I couldn't think of anything. I just don't think there was any filler. It was just good. I'm excited. It's a long movie. I should have done my movie review first because it wasn't as good. I enjoyed it. I mentioned earlier the 200 Greatest Singers Rolling Stone magazine put out. I am fascinated by music biopics. What movie did I go see? You don't even know. Oh, a music biopic. Oh, isn't there some... movie about some 70s rock band that's like a biopic is that no i went to go see i want to dance with somebody the whitney houston biopic okay now i hate her and think she's the spawn of satan so i would never see the movie but i would imagine i would imagine it's actually a fascinating film you tell me well i like listen i love love love the band queen and have been a fan as you are since I was a young, young child. When the movie came out, I went, hey, wait a second. That didn't really happen like that. And it didn't happen when they said it did. They took a lot of liberties in that movie, a little Hollywood stuff. But then when Rocketman came out, as we talked about, Elton John, who was a producer on the movie, said, no, no, no, no, no, I was an asshole. Put that in. Put that in. show all the bumps and warts and all that kind of thing. Whitney Houston, I was wondering, are they going to show everything? And they did. Oh, good, good, good, good. And so I did appreciate that because, you know, what a voice. And she had her flaws, obviously, and her demons. And they put those in there and they put in a relationship that they didn't mention during her life. Obviously, her close friends knew about it, but years after she died, her former partner put out a book, and people were like, is this true or not? Well, finally, they said, yeah, it is true, so it's canon, and I was glad to see that happen. I enjoyed it. I mean, the woman who plays Whitney, her name's Naomi Ackie, I believe her name is. Spectacular job. So, listen, I liked it. I liked the music. I got a lot of goosebumps, and it was good. Good. Yeah. Fun. and I had popcorn and I had a big drink and I didn't piss or shit myself so yeah because it was two songs over three hours that's right I am going to Indisc in a few days at the time of this recording I'll probably be out I know this is a bummer for you because you love that tournament oh my god I do I really really do they do a great job Jim Jay Bob and of course Carl D'Python Anghelo So this is not in Bannon, California anymore. You haven't been to the new Riverside one. It's spectacular. Hotel's right there. Food. You don't need to rent a car. Is it in Palm Springs? No, it's closer to the Ontario airport, Ontario, California. So I think, like, I know it was an easy Uber ride for me to get there. It was like $35 or something like that. So I didn't have to rent a car, which was kind of nice when you're there for a few days. But all these tournaments, I mean, they've got two classics. they've got the women's, they've got a youth tournament, they've got this Target Match Play Classics big event, they've got this high-stakes tournament to enter. $500. You get 10 entries to get your best five games on one card. And when that card's done, you play your next card. 10 entries... Wait a second, wait a second. Sorry, sorry to interrupt you for a second. I just want to just clarify something. How much is it per card? You can't buy a card. You have to buy $500 to get 10 cards for the high stakes. $50 a card? Is that what you're saying? Which is probably what it was before, but yeah. That's not bad. That's not bad. No, but it's the fact you've got to spend $500. And it's designed not to be for pretenders. You're playing this not even for whoppers. You're playing this for cash. And, of course, then there's the big open tournament, which is going to be the biggest whopper fest ever in the history of pinball. This is going to be worth more than any tournament has ever been worth. It's a major. There's a lovely Stern Premium game to be won for the winner, plus tons of cash prizes. I would suspect the winner is going to be getting over 200 Whoppers just for this event. Nuts. Crazy. Madness. Yeah. Do your good thing. Like, in disc, fuck yeah. It'll be fun. Watch the stream on IE Pinball. There'll be a lot of great people commentating on that. Of course, Carl does a good job. But you'll just see, if you've got to go to one tournament, and to get your whopper fixed, to get your tournament filled, this is the one. But it's amazing when we look at the emails we get, how many people are actually big tournament talk fans. And they always say, oh, you want to kill a podcast, talk about tournaments. That's not what happens on our show. People seem to love it. It's actually strange. Isn't that weird? I know. I know. But this tournament, what makes this so unique is it's the old Papa style. Papa, just outside of Pittsburgh in Carnegie, Pennsylvania. They used to do this thing where you would play games and you have a card. So I play game number one and let's just say it's Tron. That score goes on that card and then I play the next game. And let's say it's Surf and Safari. That goes on. If I have a bad Surf and Safari, shit, I got to do better on my next three games because you can't play Surf and Safari again. and you have to play five different games on that card. So you have to have five consistent games. It is one of the hardest tournaments to qualify for because it requires that tough consistency and several days of qualifying and the world's best players. There's going to be at least 250 people there, maybe 300, maybe more. This is a challenge. This is a great tournament, and they do that format for the women's. They do that for both classics events. They have a children's event and the high stakes. you watch the stream you'll see some great pinball no look let me tell you let me let me tell you the problem i have with everything you just said like from the start of the show like fuck can we just rewind i'm now going to critique line by line everything that you've just said no if i was sitting at home right now and thinking oh i'm not that good a player but should i go to indisc from what you've just said those people are saying well that's it i'm fucking out there's no way it's too challenging it's the hardest format the best of the best why say why bother it is everything else i said though it is no i know that's why i'm what i want to say for those people that listen to jeff and just gone well you've just ruined pinball for everybody bullshit but what i'm what i'm going to say to you is just fucking go and have fun because besides the fact that you got this card format which i've never done but everyone's told me that it is It's a bit of a challenge. You did do it. I've never done a card format. Ever. You did. Yeah, you did when you were at Indus, when you were in the B finals. Did I? I think so. Did I? Did I? I don't know. Are you saying you didn't? I've never... I said twice now, I've never done a card format. Are you calling me a liar? You're fucking hammered. I'll call you... I can call you a lot of things. Liar's not one of them. But really, I've always thought they've done this format. No, that was the last pump and dump. It used to be a pump and dump? It was the last pump and dump. I stand corrected. I'll move forward because nobody thought you were correct. I've never done the card format, so I think I'd be a little bit nervous about it, but I also would think, fuck it, buy another card. You know what? And also, everyone has so much fun talking about their cards. You know what I mean? Remember how I sort of said before that there's playing the game and then there's also playing the tournament, which is part of the game? We're having that conversation about tournaments ruining pinball. it's that kind of thing the card format is fun because you can do four great games and then do an absolute stinker with your feet and basically ruining your whole card that in itself is an event that's part of the fun so for those people that are going well i don't know and it sounds like it's gonna be tough yeah it is but it's also fun that's part of the fun it is fun and it is tough but if you've ever asked yourself, I wonder where I stand. How can I do against the best of the best? And if you look at the standings last year, you saw some names you never saw before on there, and you went, wow, who were these people? They've never done this well before because all it really takes is to have five games. You don't have to have five grand champion scores. You just have to have five decent games. If you can look at the bank and say, I think I can do okay on that. I think on Tronic I can maybe get a couple multi-balls. Okay, you know the game's going to be set up. I don't have to blow it up. I just have to have something that is what they call a non-bleeder in that you don't want it to be the worst of everyone playing the game. If you have a score that, oh my gosh, I got 6 million on Batman 66, you know everybody playing the game is going to beat that. Well, you just want to have some kind of decent in-between scores, and sometimes that's all you need. Avoid the bleeders. And then when you get a good card, then, okay, what am I going to do? Watch it go down, watch it go down, or are you going to play a little defense? defense and play the games that you haven't played on your card and try to knock down the scores of the people ahead of you oh there's the strategy that's the fun this is what i'm talking about this is where it's fun and everybody everybody has a chance to change the outcome everybody and that's that's that's what's fun about it and and sort of what we've said a couple of episodes ago is if you go into this thinking i'm either going to win or i'm going to have a bad time it's not it's not ones and zeros ryan it's you will have fun regardless you might not come first but you're still going to have fun so it is fun check it on ie pinball january 12th to the 15th lots of pinball action okay other than a fucking million spam emails what is going on there yeah I keep deleting them. Someone's obviously given our email address to some bot site. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Thanks, assholes. Thanks for everything. To you. No, I think every time we've bagged out Ian because of COVID, he's gone, all right, every time you mention my name, I'm going to sign you up for some shit website. Shit, we're in trouble. We didn't mention this time, Ian. Yeah. A couple good emails here. I'm going to read two. Okay. Okay, one is from Ed in Kentucky. Okay. Jeff and Marty, thank you, thank you, thank you for talking about older games. If I hear another podcast about Godzilla, I'm going to throw up. Sorry about the first half of the show, Ed, but we had to get the review. He wrote, don't get me wrong. Everybody loves the newest pins, but sometimes it's just nice to not hear about the new games and dive into some older games, no matter the context of the conversation. And as a side note, I enjoy the podcast being a little bit longer than usual. Cheers for that. That show was supposed to be 45 minutes. Drunky Magoo kept fucking talking. Drunky Magoo. Sure. Okay. Anyway, so he said, have a good holidays and looking forward to Haggis doing Flash Gordon. Okay, you got a request for that from Ed. It wasn't the first request. A lot of people say Flash Gordon. Just to let you know. But this is the whole thing. Remember, I was sort of saying I just wanted us to talk about those old games, and I got a bit of a nostalgia fix. I was hoping that other people would. So, Ed, that just really made me happy that you appreciated that. So there you go. And Corey Hulse, nice email. Hi, gents. Hope all's well. Love the nerdy tournament talk. I'm in favor of more of it. Sure. Got it. You talked about Fireball 2 in the last episode. By the way, Marty, thank you for introducing that to me again. I don't know why. I don't think I've ever played that game. Yeah, and that's why I was... I wasn't just like, oh my God, Jeff, you're an idiot. I was like, oh my God, Jeff, when you get a chance to play this, you are going to be fucking happy. Yeah, I was an idiot last episode when I didn't know Fireball 2. It is good. Corey writes, it happens to be the first game I own and I made a three-minute tutorial video back in the day. Okay, it's on YouTube. You can check that out. Drop targets galore. His favorite ballets from that era, he said you can do these with 2.0 code in no particular order. Fireball 2, Mystic, Skateball, Hot Dog, and Xenon. So that was sent to you there, Marty. Sure. We haven't responded to Corey, so we're doing it here on their podcast. Finally, I've been doing some reflecting on the year and was thinking about how appreciative I am of both the highly competitive community, the big wig players who travel to the pro circuit events and hang out on Tilt forums and Ray Day's Discord, and my own hyper local community, the people we see week in and out at League and who support local shows and tournaments. Jeff, I'm sure you saw these local communities time and time again through your world tour, your US tours, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to host them. Thanks, Corey. As an adult, before I got into pinball, I thought it would be near impossible to make new friends once I was out of school, but I very much appreciate all the connections and friendships that have formed since getting into the competitive side of the hobby, plus the genuine fostering of the local community. So there you go. that's why competitive pinball is fun i never would have met you if it wasn't for competitive pinball and doing podcasts and and things like that anyway yeah so but again he said he said on new year's eve he was able to get 48 friends together eat a bunch of good food and get one last tournament in to count towards the the nax which is obviously the nationals right it was a great way to end the year and this is what i i sort of said when i was talking about somebody that wants to go to a tournament for the first time your goal should not be winning the tournament your goal should be making friends. Because once you make friends, all the other good stuff will come. And I'm the same. Like the majority of people that I now have in my life are pinball people. And I feel bad sometimes that I don't have my old friends in my life, but I just have so much more in common with pinball people. Yeah, but they know what kind of dirty bastard you were before. So, I mean, it's kind of clean slate. Look at it that way, right? Where can people reach us? They can reach us at finalroundpinball at gmail.com. Instagram is finalroundpinballpodcast. Twitter is at finalroundpin. And Facebook, just look up finalroundpinballpodcast. Thank you for the feedback. We do appreciate it. It means more to us than anything else. It really does. Got anything else there, Marty? Did I miss anything? No, I think we covered a lot today. Good. I've got to pack for INDISC, and you've got to go to Four Pillars. Correct, which I cannot wait. And you get to produce this. Yay! I'm okay with that. Thank you, buddy. All right, we'll talk soon. Thanks, everybody.