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Episode 8 - Dead Pool vs DOA Pins

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·59m 11s·analyzed·Aug 8, 2018
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Deadpool announcement excites hosts; new competitor Suncoast Arcade raises market saturation concerns.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss Stern's announcement of Deadpool pinball, designed by George Gomez with code by Tanya Kleiss and art by Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti). They also cover a surprise announcement from Suncoast Arcade about Cosmic Carnival, a new $6,000 pinball machine still in whitewood phase, comparing it to established competitors and discussing the challenges of entering the crowded pinball market.

Key Claims

  • Deadpool LE limited to 500 units (250 domestic, 250 overseas)

    high confidence · Ken and Bill discussing LE package specifications

  • Tanya Kleiss previously rethemed Earthshaker into Metallica with James Hetfield involvement

    high confidence · Bill Webb providing background on Tanya Kleiss's work history

  • Jack Danger (Deadflip) streaming Deadpool on August 15th

    high confidence · Ken stating announced stream date

  • Deadpool machines expected to ship by end of month following announcement

    medium confidence · Ken and Bill discussing Stern's typical production timeline

  • Suncoast Arcade's Cosmic Carnival targets $6,000 price point with expected 2024/2025 release

    medium confidence · Bill describing whitewood images and company statements about timeline

  • Stern Pro remains best value pinball at under $6,000

    medium confidence · Ken's opinion on market positioning

  • Only one major pinball manufacturer remained by end of 1990s (Williams)

    medium confidence · Bill reflecting on historical industry consolidation

  • Zombie Yeti's art packages on Ghostbusters, Iron Maiden, Deadpool, and Magic Girl are among the best ever

    medium confidence · Ken and Bill assessing artist quality

Notable Quotes

  • “So it's kind of refreshing. Arguably, I wonder if this might be his best art package to date.”

    Ken Cromwell @ early discussion — Establishing Zombie Yeti's artistic reputation and Deadpool's visual appeal

  • “I purposely stayed off Pinside as much as I could today because I didn't want to be influenced by what anybody said... I just wanted to kind of get a true, true gauge on this.”

    Bill Webb @ mid-show — Demonstrating independent evaluation approach; Deadpool's growing appeal despite initial skepticism

  • “If they show something, it's ready to rock and roll and be in your hands within a few weeks. So you've got to get props.”

    Bill Webb @ production timeline discussion — Praising Stern's execution and manufacturing readiness

  • “Pinball is a lot harder to do than people think. So I'll be curious to see how this goes.”

    Bill Webb @ Cosmic Carnival discussion — Industry skepticism toward new entrants; historical context of manufacturer failures

  • “When there's an LCD, there's got to be animations. And I've reached out to a few different artists... animations are where you're going to really burn up your budget.”

    Ken Cromwell @ late-show homebrew discussion — Technical reality of production costs affecting Cosmic Carnival's feasibility

  • “You're going to have to come up with something that's going to be bang for your buck at $6,000.”

    Ken Cromwell @ Cosmic Carnival pricing analysis — Market positioning challenge for new entrant

  • “I'd like to have seen a picture with it on and maybe some animations just to see that it's not... I don't know that it turns on at this point, though.”

    Bill Webb @ Cosmic Carnival critique — Questioning whether prototype is functional; lack of proof of concept

  • “The earlier you subject yourself to public display, you open up potential criticism... it's almost a lose-lose situation unless you completely hit it out of the park.”

Entities

DeadpoolgameGeorge GomezpersonTanya KleisspersonJeremy PackerpersonJack DangerpersonKen Cromwellperson

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Stern Pinball officially announces Deadpool pinball machine with detailed specifications, three edition tiers, and production timeline.

    high · Episode titled 'Deadpool vs DOA Pins' centers on announcement; hosts discuss specifications, LE details, autographed certificates, anti-reflection glass, audio upgrades, and imminent production.

  • ?

    content_signal: Jack Danger (Deadflip) announced to stream Deadpool on August 15th, establishing early media coverage and community access to gameplay.

    high · Ken states: 'we've got Jack Danger, Deadflip, who's announced, I think it's August 15th, he'll be streaming Deadpool.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Zombie Yeti (Jeremy Packer) continues to define Stern's aesthetic through comic book-style artwork across multiple flagship titles; hosts consider Deadpool potentially his best work.

    high · Ken: 'Arguably, I wonder if this might be his best art package to date.' Bill: 'anything that he's touched... Ghostbusters. What's the other one? Oh, well, he just did Iron Maiden. Iron Maiden. Yeah. And Deadpool... Bar none badass.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern replicas Iron Maiden's successful LE strategy on Deadpool: 500-unit limit, autographed certs, anti-reflection glass, premium audio, powder-coated trim, HD glass.

    high · Ken and Bill systematically compare Deadpool LE features to Iron Maiden's 'so widely well-received' package. Bill: 'they're just really stepping up their game.'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Deadpool machines expected to begin factory production within days; cabinets likely in-house and ready for assembly line by show recording.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.177

0:00
This special when lit pinball podcast is sponsored by Two Brothers Pinball Pale Ale, proudly supporting the passions of pinheads everywhere.
0:07
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the special when lit pinball podcast starts now. Here are your hosts, Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb. Hey, you have clicked play and you've entered episode number eight of the special when lit pinball podcast. My name's Ken Cromwell, and the guy across the studio table from me is Bill Webb, my co-host. What's up, Bill? Oh, not a lot per se, just a lot going on in pinball. No kidding, man. It's like the pinball world has kind of gone from a dormant state to rocking and rolling right now. Some big news from Stern that we'll get into here briefly. But how are you liking the new studio equipment? We've made a couple changes. It's weird because I can see your eyes looking across. before. So the old setup, the microphones were up in our faces and you couldn't actually look across. They dangled down with the pop filters. So now it's weird because Ken can actually look at me and I can look at him. And I can't just be dozing off in the space while he's talking. It's weird to look at me while you're talking. It's not the first time I've heard that.
1:14
You'd be surprised. Bad jokes come to mind. We're going to do those out in left field. We've got to do what we've got to do. Yeah, so Stern Pinball, right? rocking and rolling with a brand new release or announcement today, which is? Deadpool. So let me ask you this. And it did have the Deadpool on a spring. It did. So I guess there was some discussion amongst fellow podcasters that that teaser video that had kind of the bobblehead looking Deadpool would or would not be on the pin. And there were those that said there's no way. And then there were some that said absolutely, and it ends up that that teaser Deadpool little bobblehead is the featured kind of bobble toy on the field, on the play field. I think it looks cool. I don't know what your thoughts are. My initial thoughts were I didn't know what that was and why it was there, but I think the way that Zombie Yeti had done the artwork, it's that comic book style. I guess it fits. I mean, I don't know. I mean, here, the machine itself looks awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. It is awesome. And anything that he's touched, I mean. Zombie Yeti? Yeah, Ghostbusters.

Bill Webb @ Cosmic Carnival strategy discussion — Industry wisdom about product announcement timing and market psychology

Bill Webb
person
Stern Pinballcompany
Suncoast Arcadecompany
Cosmic Carnivalgame
Pinball Mafiagame
Iron Maidengame
Metallicagame
Magic Girlgame
Ghostbustersgame
T2game
TNAgame
Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
Pinsideorganization
James Hetfieldperson
Two Brothers Pinball Pale Alecompany
Big Bang Bargame
Magic King Konggame

medium · Bill: 'If I were a betting man, I'd literally bet the cabinets are in-house, ready to go for that game.' Ken: 'end of the month these will be going out of the factory.'

  • $

    market_signal: Suncoast Arcade enters pinball market with Cosmic Carnival at $6,000 price point, still in whitewood phase; hosts question manufacturing experience and market viability.

    high · Extended discussion of Suncoast whitewood announcement via Facebook; Bill: 'so it doesn't look overly elaborate populated.' Ken: 'I'm not feeling it yet.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Bill Webb's personal interest in Deadpool shifts from skeptical (unaware of Deadpool IP) to enthusiastic (excited to purchase) after announcement reveal and art package reveal.

    high · Bill: 'when I heard Deadpool... I was like that should be pretty entertaining then I found I was off... lost a little momentum but seeing the game now... I really want to play... I might be in on [buying one].'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Discussion of 1990s pinball industry consolidation: 5-6 major manufacturers end-decade vs. single survivor (Williams), establishing context for skepticism toward new entrants.

    high · Bill: 'At the end of the 90s, how many were left? One. So, I mean, pinball is a lot harder to do than people think.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Hosts express concern about Cosmic Carnival's viability: symmetrical/basic playfield, $6,000 price undercuts Stern Pro value proposition, marketing whitewood prematurely exposes to criticism.

    high · Ken: 'Do I want to see it like a real basic symmetrical machine that kind of almost looks like a redemption machine for $6,000? Probably not.' Bill: 'the Stern Pro at under six, in my opinion, remains the best bang for your buck.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Deadpool features spring-mounted Deadpool bobblehead (wittle Wade) as playfield toy; caused community speculation before official reveal confirmed its inclusion.

    high · Ken: 'there was some discussion amongst fellow podcasters that that teaser video that had kind of the bobblehead looking Deadpool would or would not be on the pin... it ends up that that teaser Deadpool little bobblehead is the featured kind of bobble toy on the field.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Tanya Kleiss assigned as lead programmer for Deadpool; hosts praise his work ethic, passion for pinball, and successful Metallica code work as indicators of high-quality output expected.

    high · Bill: 'Tanya... he's been at Stern for a little bit... generally speaking... so much about his work ethic... passion he has for pinball. So assuming that that work ethic translates into awesome code, this code should be incredible.'

    • 2:27
    What's the other one? Oh, well, he just did Iron Maiden. Yeah. And Deadpool. Insane. He's got his hands on Magic Girl. So, I mean, there's no argument that his pinball art packages have been some of the best. Bar none badass. Yeah, that we've ever seen.
    2:44
    So it's kind of refreshing. Arguably, I wonder if this might be his best art package to date. Again, it's hard for us to really comment. I mean, we've seen some of the pictures today, some of the close-ups of the play field, the cabinet art. It looks like there's different art packages for the Pro, the Premium, and the LE, which is pretty standard.
    3:04
    But, yeah, the art's incredible. I was thinking that – well, let me ask you, are you a big Deadpool fan in general? So I'm not really into comics, but I did see a good portion of the Deadpool 1 movie and thought it was pretty funny. so when I heard that they were going to make a Deadpool pinball machine I was like that should be pretty entertaining then I found I was off the comic book kind of lost a little momentum but seeing the game now now I really want to play because that might be one I might be in on oh really really I know okay interesting now I'm kind of in the same boat with you I never really read the Deadpool comics in fact I didn't know what Deadpool was until the movie came out and then I realized that it was based off of a comic book the movie I thought was funny it was different than anything I'd ever seen and that kind of appealed to me that being said I never really thought to myself man I wish there was a Deadpool pinball machine that would be like a dream theme of mine and then exactly what you just said when I heard they were doing Deadpool or rumored to be doing Deadpool I was like alright that's going to be kind of interesting from the movie then when I saw that they were doing the comic book I'm like man I don't have any touch in the comic book but I'm starting to think that it might just be a better idea to do the comics than the movies the the movie if you based it on a on a movie it'd be deadpool one right or maybe some deadpool two yeah but then you're really you're really limited to just that movie where now they're not exactly so now they've got this comic books that the comic books that have been you know out there and they've got a little bit more probably creative license versus being stuck on movie scenes or movie quotes yeah and trying to get licensing for voices and all that other stuff. But, you know, that's not to say, you know, I don't know if it's possible, but, you know, I'm sure somebody out there some way would figure out a way to take some of the lines in the original Deadpool movie and throw them into that pinball machine, which would just be awesome. Yeah, so I guess there's a voice actor that is doing the voiceover work. There's original music that has been done for the game. And, you know, so I'm very interested to see how it plays. Now, of course, we've got Jack Danger, Deadflip, who's announced, I think it's August 15th, he'll be streaming Deadpool. I don't know if it's a pro or a premium or an LE. I don't know what he is streaming. They normally do the pros, I think, don't they? I believe so. So let's assume we see Jack Danger streaming that pro.
    5:34
    What are you going to be looking for on that stream as somebody that potentially is interested in buying a Deadpool pinball machine? Just see how it flows. I'm not really watching to see the game get blown up or anything. Just see how it flows. And honestly, we're in a different position because we'll find somebody in our neck of the woods that purchases one. Well, that's supposed to be you, Bill. Well, yeah. Now it will be. Now that you've gone on record. Yeah. If you don't own it, it's because you were disappointed in something. You'll have to explain it now. Yeah, or monetary reasons. Oh, that could be true. Monetary reasons set back a lot of people.
    6:10
    That's absolutely true. Yeah. But, no, just honestly the flow, see how it shoots, see some of the features, and that's about it. Other than that, I'd really just want to jump on one first. It's a George Gomez design. Which I'm a fan of. It's a Tanyo Klysan code, who I'm excited to see this. Now, with Tanyo, he's been at Stern for a little bit, and generally speaking, I've heard so much about his work ethic, the amount of time that he puts into work at Stern, the passion he has for pinball. So assuming that that work ethic translates into awesome code, this code should be incredible on this machine. So I can't wait to see his style of coding machines. Oh, yeah. Well, and just to give people background on Tanya, he was the same guy that took an Earthshaker, rethemed it in Metallica, and had Dirty Donnie change the artwork on it, if I'm not mistaken. No, you're absolutely correct. Yep. pin sounded or did whatever to have it play Metallica clips and that's the game that James Hetfield owns. Yeah, lead singer in Metallica. They worked with Metallica to re-theme Earthshaker, which is a whole other story within its own. Maybe one day we'll have to get him on.
    7:18
    I'd love to see if he'd like to come on the show. Either way, lots of respect for him. Just a super nice guy. We've spoken with him and just very humble. I remember when we were talking to him a few months ago, He was saying that he was working on his first game. Obviously, he wasn't giving us any clues on what it was, and we didn't choose to ask because that's just not our style. We respect that. Well, it's their business. You don't want to go invading somebody's business.
    7:47
    Well, let's see. And it's not for us to ruin the surprise anyways. I mean, I think we both, from some of the manufacturers, have gotten some information that it would have been fun to break a story. and not to say that we won't ever break a story, but I would never prefer to break a story if it meant hardship on somebody else. Yeah, putting expense on somebody. Right. It's just not worth it. No. Because the big salaries we're getting from this pinball podcast is not worth alienating some friends and contacts away. The beer we have now is starting to collect. Right. Is that what it is? We need more guests on the show to hand out this beer. No kidding. And that would be the Two Brothers Pinball Pale Ale. So a little plug in the Two Brothers Pinball Pal-El Studio that we're broadcasting from. Yep. So, yeah. Yeah, it should be interesting to see. Really looking forward to that. And this game has a wicked amount of features. And that they took off of the, you know, took a page off like the Iron Maiden. And production is down to 500, which is, I like that, you know, 1,800 is a little much on some things. I agree. So let's go at this line by line, if you don't mind. This is the LE package. with 500 units, I think it puts it right in line for a true limited edition release. Oh, yeah. Well, here, I mean, that puts 250 out overseas, right? Then you have 250 here, you know, divided up by 50 states, and what do you get? 20? Not a lot of pins per state. Yeah. Right. So I think that's cool. Certificate of authenticity, that standard. Autographed by the designer. Which is George Gomez. I like his autograph. It's kind of like a blocky style. It is. It looks cool. It looks like somebody made a cool-looking stamp out of it, and it kind of – It really does look stamped. Yeah, it's cool. I like it.
    9:29
    And then serialized plate, but they all kind of come with that. Absolutely. The anti-reflection glass. Now, see, I'm glad that they're – now, these are features that were offered in Iron Maiden. They're LE. And when Stern came out with that limited edition package, it was so widely well-received because it had all the bells and whistles that people would expect on an LE. and now you're seeing a repeat of this from stern with deadpool uh and and again now you've got the addition of the anti-glare the hd glass awesome yeah and i think they're just really stepping up their game the one that i'm really excited about too is the uh the high-powered uh three-channel amplifier that's pretty wicked so what exactly for somebody that doesn't understand what that's going to do to benefit a pinball machine you're an audio guy it's going to be louder stereo is going to sound better less less distortion at higher volume higher volumes like you know better The bass and the woofer? Yeah. Okay. But, I mean, here, honestly, and we'll still run down the list of some of these, but, you know, here, honestly, they're putting everything on these games that people literally, they get, you know, they're brand new in box. They bring it home. They slide their Invisiglass in. Yeah. They upgrade the stereo. They do all the, you know, and here, another one is the red speaker rings. So those are illuminated rings that go inside the actual speaker panel. Yeah. So, I mean, literally, you're getting this thing, and it's kind of turnkey. If you go with the LE, you know. For sure. So the money that you would normally spend on upgrades or mods for this machine, you're kind of getting a package deal on the limited edition. Yeah, without having to do anything, which is nice. Powder-coated trim. I like powder-coated trim. And I think that's like a red metallic flake or something that they're doing on that. Yeah. Right, which I think is awesome. Cool. The shaker motor, that's a little more standard. Well, you know what? Shaker motors weren't standard for a while. They kind of fell out a little bit, I think, at least on the premiums. So it's nice to see a shaker in there. True. Right. T-Rex time travel quest themed cabinet by a zombie yeti.
    11:24
    You can't go wrong with dinosaurs. No. Right. Because even if you can't play it around kids because you put alternate call outs in there, at least they can look at it and be like, pretty game. Yeah, exactly. I got a buddy whose son's big into dinosaurs. So it'd be cool to see his reaction. Dinosaurs and cosmic kitties and unicorns, right? Exactly. And ponies.
    11:45
    Right. It's whatever. Pixie dust and everything. 220, 221, whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. So, yeah, going back on Deadpool, really excited to actually get a chance to play this game, seeing it was pretty wicked. Yeah. So, and this is the thing. So we got the stream coming up. It's going to be our first opportunity to kind of see it. I'm hoping that, well, one, I hope the stream goes off without a hitch, and it usually does for the most part. But, again, I touched on this last week. I would not make a decision, yay or nay, on a machine based on a stream. I just really want to play this and see. And again, I was not into this at all when I heard it being rumored, but now I'm pretty pumped up. I'm excited today, man, because it was cool to see the buzz around this pin. And I purposely kind of stayed off of Pinside. For those who don't know, Pinside is an online forum group that discusses pinball. Pinside.com. I purposely stayed off the forums as much as I could today because I didn't want to be influenced by what anybody said. I didn't want somebody to bring something up and get me pissed off about something. And I didn't want somebody to overhype something that was going to make me buy into something that I never would have noticed. I just wanted to kind of get a true, true gauge on this. and for me at least it's been uh exciting and positive and surprisingly cool for something that i wasn't really too pumped up about to begin with yeah that's good salesmanship when they can pull you in like that yeah for sure for sure so we'll see what happens and uh i'm hoping at some point we can get in and uh and get some plays on that whether it be at stern or uh hopefully before expo i mean these things should be shipping i would imagine in and by the end of the month these will be going out of the factory. Yeah, normally they do, when they first start running that game, they do a live feed from the factory with all the pinball cabinets and everything going down the line. So I wouldn't be surprised if in the next week or two we start seeing all the cabinets lined up and play fields getting put together. You might see those cabinets lined up in the next couple days. I'd be surprised if work hasn't started on this already. If I were a betting man, I'd literally bet the cabinets are in-house, ready to go for that game. Right. Because they never show anything until they're ready literally to pull the trigger and start ripping them. That is what's cool with CERN. I mean, they've got their stuff together. If they show something, it's ready to rock and roll and be in your hands within a few weeks. So you've got to get props. The parts are in-house, ready to go. The parts are in-house and ready to go. So you actually reached out to me this week. You sent me a text message with a link to another pinball machine that is in the process of being made and brought into the general pinball population. General pinball market, yep. General Pinball Market, did you want to go ahead and discuss this? And I'd really like to get your feedback on this because it seems like every couple weeks now there's a surprise. And this was definitely out of left field. I was on Facebook saw this link for a new pinball machine to be built which was the company is called Suncoast Arcade and they building a game called Cosmic Carnival Suncoast so suncoast pinball and arcade right yes yeah well i think it pinball now but it was just suncoast arcade yeah right yeah um so yeah they it looks like they got a whitewood going um if anyone hasn't had a chance i'd check it out um very symmetrical looking game um you know it said they wanted to get games out or going and out the door by next year at some point.
    15:12
    Not too sure how I feel about it, just because honestly what I've seen in the picture looks a little barren because it is a whitewood. So it's a whitewood that's in a cabinet, and it looks like there's an LCD screen installed and a speaker panel with a back glass, kind of similar to a Stern design. Very similar. Right. So, yeah, I mean, it looks like the fundamentals are there, but, you know, you've still got programming, You've still got artwork. The cabinet had some artwork on there. I don't think that's a final production just because of how it looked. Maybe I'm wrong.
    15:46
    So it'll be interesting to see what happens with these. And I just kind of want to go back to the 90s. There were how many manufacturers, like five or six main manufacturers? Yeah. At the end of the 90s, how many were left? One.
    16:00
    So, I mean, pinball is a lot harder to do than people think. So I'll be curious to see how this goes. I'd like to see them succeed and not just be on the list of people that failed because that list is getting long.
    16:14
    I'm questioning if they have anyone that's been experienced in pinball on board because my first impression was similar to yours. It's great to see another option, another pinball machine. I did notice that the machine looked very symmetrical with two mirrored ramps to the left and to the right. it didn't look like there was a lot of like inserts on the play field although to your point that you had made earlier prior to the show they were able to get inserts into a play field so that's you know they've got some manufacturing prowess which is nice yeah i mean there was a finished product it did look well not finished but uh a good looking whitewood um yeah to your point with the symmetrical yeah i mean there's uh the stand-up targets on the left drop targets on the right um for me it was yeah so did you see their price point that they were targeting on this about six grand six thousand dollars so and this is kind of what what i'm thinking is if you're going to come in to this ever-growing pinball marketplace at a six thousand dollar price point and this is just back with uh what pinball mafia yeah or mafia by uh mafia pinball or yeah yeah Right, that machine that we talked about last week. You're going to have to come up with something that's going to be bang for your buck at $6,000. And I think the issue being when you're on a limited run of machines, it's hard to get the BOM, which is the bill of materials, to a point to where you can turn a profit unless you're selling a lot of machines. Do I want to see it like a real basic symmetrical machine that kind of almost looks like a redemption machine for $6,000? Probably not. I mean, the Stern Pro at under six, in my opinion, remains the best bang for your buck in pinball. Well, here, I mean, in between now and then, let's just say they came out with this game in April, right? I'm just shooting. I have no idea if it'll ever get off the ground or if it'll be out in January. You know, we don't know. We have no clue. Right. How many other games are going to come out by then? Number one. Number two, if Stern Pros are still in the $5,500 range, you know, you put that game next to a Deadpool, you know, And it's just because it's, you know, and honestly, you know, we're not talking smack about it. It's just still in the Whitewood phase. Right, you're right. We're not talking smack. I mean, just going about what was released. And I think this goes back to your point. Maybe, you know what, it's best not to release things too early because you just kind of expose yourself. Yeah, and up for criticisms and stuff. I mean, here, what if they take the drop targets out and they have to lose a ramp? That's right. Well, then you're really talking a real barren game then. Well, you can't lose anything on this machine because if you lost anything, it could be traumatic. But when we were talking about the release of Mafia, which was the new pinball machine, that was something that was, hey, this is done. These are ready to ship. We're ready to do this. There was no basic whitewood that we all had to figure out what was going to happen. So, you know, this new company now, this new pinball adventure, I'm not sure how it's going to go. and i think we're both in agreement where we're happy to see new players in the game but you got to bring your game to be a player yeah right absolutely yeah i'm just not feeling it yet i mean here i can give them credit where credit's due for getting a whitewood and getting it into a cabinet and getting a lcd mocked up but there's still no pictures of it turning on there's still no like final artwork and you know here i mean the the pinball mafia i mean And here they said, this is what it is, this is what it costs, if you want it, great, if not, whatever. And they kind of cornered it well where they only came out with 100 games. So even if it's not that great of a game, it's still going to be a collectible because of the limited number. I think there's like 35 or something that's coming into the States. Here, I mean, look at like Magic Girl or Big Bang Bar. I've never played either one of them, but some of the stories that I've read aren't great, which will lead us into kind of our next segment that i wanted to talk about or king kong is that a awesome playing machine i don't i don't know i've read on it and you know it goes 50 50 you know all goes back to you know personal preference again i want to be enthusiastic about it i just if you're going to release something i need to be a little bit more excited uh initially for me to even follow the story you know to to kind of see where it goes because right now my initial impression is good for you guys maybe you'll be able to introduce this and and put it on location at certain spots for some operators and maybe it makes some money maybe it's more of a scaled down basic game for those that aren't the hardcore pinball rule set people to kind of play or introduce new players into the hobby i i don't know there's a market for that and there's got to be a market for that too i'm sure there is there is um but it's six thousand dollars if you're an operator are you spending six on something that's scaled down for somebody to hopefully get into the hobby or are you spending under six for something that is going to earn on route just because of licensing and and it just so happens to have an awesome art package and it has a great designer and it has somebody that's that's busting ass on code you know it's well in here like deadpool ghostbusters star wars those are all you know you could be a terrible pinball player but you love the movies and you're going to put your money into it. Right. If you're an operator. I mean, it's going to pay for itself. You know what that game's going to be worth when you pull it off route roughly and be able to get back out of it. Because the operators don't hang on to these forever. They wind up selling them to people that put them in their homes. Right. And as long as they get their money's worth and they resell, I mean, they're going to make money most likely on anything they put on route. Yeah. Now, and you know what? Here, I give them credit for everything that they've accomplished so far. I'd like to have seen a picture with it on and maybe some animations just to see that it's not. I don't know that it turns on at this point, though. I don't. We don't know. I think it's a whitewood in a box.
    22:04
    But because of the limited information, I was more excited to see the Nightmare Before Christmas pin at Pinball Expo a couple years ago that the guy had made out of cardboard ramps and it had clips playing from the – Yeah, for sure. That was a whitewood. But, I mean, he had a lot of love in that game, and it looked really cool. And that game's evolved. Yeah. It would be cool to see that come out one day. But, you know, I think you hit it on the head. There are homebrew pins right now that you can see at pinball shows that look like they have a little bit more to offer than this initial release of pictures that we've seen from this new pinball company or arcade company that's making pinball. And you know what? Honestly, they could be, and we don't understand their reasoning why they did that. Maybe they're just trying to drum up some sort of interest to gauge what kind of sales they could get out of doing it. Well, listen, if it's a passion of mine and I'm like, I'd love to do pinball machine, I mean, pinball is so hot right now. And with everything that's been released, there's such a big buzz. I can almost see somebody wanting to jump the gun a little bit out of excitement to share their project. The problem is the earlier you subject yourself to public display, you open up potential criticism. And even if it's widely accepted as something that's pretty cool, if you're too far advanced in your release, interest is waning almost every single week that you don't have something that's completed. So it's almost a lose-lose situation unless you completely hit it out of the park. And so many things have to fall in your favor for you to do that. You know, looking at it this way, in all honesty, what I almost think they should have done, instead of announcing the game, they should have blacked out the artwork and been like, another pinball game on the horizon. And left everybody wondering, because I think that would have stirred a lot more interest. I would have blacked out the whitewood and just shown the artwork, to be honest with you. because at least you've got art and you don't know what's underneath the glass. I mean, my first impression when I saw it, I mean, again, nothing against these guys. I appreciate they're putting something up, but it just didn't wow me at all. I need to see something exciting. And with an art package, at least it lets the imagination kind of wander. Well, I mean, here, let's take two steps back on this one. so it doesn't look overly elaborate populated yeah it doesn't but you know in all honesty if it's done right it should flow t2 is not overly populated but but it flows and i mean t2 is one of those games where if they were to take that game yank the uh back glass out redo uh redo it with a monitor in the back glass um reprogram it with movie clips and change the artwork on that game, that game would be outstanding by today's standards. I'm curious to see, and you referenced T2 a lot. You've got a lot of background with T2 and T2 was a, like a monumental pin when it was released.
    25:00
    When I'm thinking of this new pinball machine right now, the one we're talking about, the what's it called again?
    25:07
    Cosmic Carnival. There's an LCD. When there's an LCD, there's got to be animations. and I've reached out to a few different artists because ourselves have been putting effort into potentially doing a homebrew pin that we would like to take to pinball shows and we've been in discussion and about this for a while we've had a lot of different ideas we've yet to do a whitewood we definitely know that it's difficult when we reach out to artists there's a budget that needs to be met for us for the homebrew to even make sense and there's artists that have to put time into this and it has to make sense to them and when you kind of figure out what might be a comfortable medium for both it leaves very little left on the bone for animations and arguably and this you know i can't say this for certain but from the research that i've done and from the artists that I've spoken to, animations are where you're going to really burn up your budget.
    26:12
    And it's not to belittle the effort for artistic expression and illustrations on the playfield, but animations is a different animal. So if this pinball machine has an LCD pinball or an LCD on the back glass, what kind of animations are you going to get that's going to be within this budget of a resale machine of $6,000? Well, and that's the other hard part, too. when you're building something that's an original theme, you have nothing to go off of. If you got a license or even stole a theme to do something, you can definitely incorporate a lot of... We've joked about doing Christmas Vacation as a thing. Yes, that would be awesome. It would be an awesome game. They're not blinking, Clark. Yeah, they're not. 25,000 twinkle lights. They're not twinkling. They're not twinkling, Clark.
    27:00
    No, but you'd have plenty of art or animations, you know stuff for the eye on the lcd screen you know we're coming up with original artwork original animations that takes time that takes money even if you're great at what you do um ken can do uh graphics i can build stuff i know pinball max pretty decently right we got another buddy that can program so i mean we kind of have a little gamut of doing it and for us we're still scared to pull the trigger animations and artwork like our two kind of hindrances and it's just not for the faint heart playfield design is such a huge thing and then the code is is big i i would say the artwork is huge because it draws everybody in there are so many different facets that you have to knock out like three out of the four you know in order for it to be successful pinball machine and and right now i don't know i i just i don't see it on what was shown and we'll see and you know what here and and and to throw the throw this to you know the first time I saw TNA, I wasn't too sure how I felt about it. So just because we're not sure doesn't mean that it's going to be a bad game. I mean, TNAs are, you know, people are asking big money for them. So, you know, it doesn't mean that it's bad. It doesn't mean that it's good. We just don't know yet. But we're excited to see what happens. Right. And TNA is pretty interesting because that was something that, again, was a whitewood that gained popularity by bringing it to the different pinball shows in the homebrew section. And it got a following because as a whitewood, it was fun to play. It shot well. And it did shoot well. And it was something that was different. It offered a different experience for somebody that was into pinball or wasn't into pinball. It had a nice light show, arguably one of the best light shows on a pinball machine in quite some time. And then as it progressed, it gained a following and people grew close to wanting to own this pinball machine. And the Jack Danger streams, I think, certainly helped the exposure on that pinball machine. And then when Charlie came in and he announced on a Jack Danger stream that they were going to produce that machine, it was like the ultimate reveal at the same time. So everything worked out for that game. Now, this Whitewood, are we going to see the same thing? Is it going to go to pinball shows as a Whitewood and then people are going to flip it and then it's going to get some awesome music and then they're going to add to the art package? I have no clue. Nobody can predict that. And, you know, maybe we'll get lucky and they'll bring it to Pinball Expo and we'll get a chance to flip on it. Yeah, I would love to see it at Expo. I'm excited about Expo, man. Like I going to be talking about Expo I think we less than 90 days to Expo and every single podcast I want to get a little bit more excited about what going to happen because there a lot going on So we were talking last week about the release schedule at Stern and I was trying to wrap my head around the fact that to me Iron Maiden still seems like new news, new content, like a machine that's still brand new and out and now here we are Deadpool boom! No pun intended. It's in our face and now this is getting launched stern's bringing the bringing the heat they're bringing the manufacturers right right you know they really are i mean those are two i think the deadpool is going to be a pretty wicked game it's hard to say i i hope it's successful i hope all these machines are successful but now i'm thinking to myself all right iron maiden again still seems fresh to me and now there's another pinball machine deadpool so how long does deadpool have the center stage before we start seeing another release from Stern. Do you still think, based on this release schedule, that we could see a pinball machine revealed at Expo in October? I wouldn't bet on Expo, but I would bet within three weeks of the end of Expo. Okay. So you're saying, and Stern has not been held hostage by the Expo date by any means. No. So you're thinking after Expo. Yeah. So here, we're like 60-some days away from Expo. So, yeah, so for 69 days from now, and you throw 21 on top of it, you know, the three-week timeline, they've got 90 days to bring out their next one, which would be kind of close. Right, so you figure four a year with a vault. Yeah. Okay. All right, so what's going to be next, right? Like, who knows? I guess Monsters has been rumored. It would be exciting to see that.
    31:17
    And this is where, again, it gets interesting for me. You've got Spooky coming in with Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle, kind of a horror-themed pin.
    31:25
    I would assume by Expo, Chicago Gaming Company will probably be displaying Monster Bash and whatever craziness that they've cooked up for this pin because it's supposed to be unbelievable. If they've pushed it this long, yeah. So you've got those two guys going up against one another. Maybe not really going up against one another because I think maybe most of the pre-orders are spoken for at Spooky with their 500 Alice Cooper Nightmare Castles. So now you've got Chicago Gaming Company, and hey, guys, here is Monster Bash. Rock it out. Here's a few machines, and they're taking orders there. So I would assume that those would start shipping before the end of the year because they've got to be close. And then you have Stern's next release. So I would assume maybe is it smart for them not to kind of push anything for Expo, let spooky and chicago gaming company kind of have that show and then they don't really need to reveal at a show they can reveal anywhere that they just revealed deadpool wasn't at a pinball show you never know our shows our shows overrated for companies releasing their pins i guess is what i'm asking myself you know i couldn't answer that in my head you know here i see the benefit of holding off you know being like you know okay you see two games come out that it might be similar theme and then you know three weeks later you know release years drop the mic and walk away yeah but you know at the same token then the people that just put money down on those games are going to be regretting it trying to offload that to buy the other one because you know you see that all the time where people are offloading to try and get the new newest hottest stuff yeah oh for sure i so i've been one of those people in certain occasions i i think that as a company that has a new release you use the show schedule to your advantage if it's convenient and it happens to coincide with your release yeah and no reason to delay a release or announcement and no reason to speed up you know within a certain amount of time it just what's the big deal how many people are really going to pinball shows expo is big texas pinball festival is big um and we're hoping to get out the texas pinball festival this year yeah yeah i mean that would be huge that'd be my first tpf and uh yeah it'd be fun i'm looking forward to really networking again with a lot of people at uh expo yeah this year was a good time last year yeah and our and our buddies at learnmods.com uh rob and kim they are coming to expo this year i saw them uh they posted and and rob and kim reached out to me so they'll have they'll be at that pinball life party i think and then but they'll have a vendor booth there so for those of you life party no at expo at expo So they're going to have a vendor booth. So if you're looking for some pretty cool mods that light you up, LureMods.com. Maybe we'll get to show for them again 90 miles an hour to get back to Expo. Yeah, right. 24 cases of beer. A little high-speed style. Yeah. Actually, we are bringing beer to the Pinball Life party. So two brothers will be bringing some pinball beer into that. And I believe we will be the delivery system for that beer.
    34:24
    Everybody likes us for the first five minutes when we walk into Pinball Life. After that, they're asking us, so when are you guys leaving? Beer guys and pizza guys are always important. Yeah. Important parts of the party. Only for the first few minutes. That's right. When you hang around longer than that, they've got to go. I'll take my, well, not even 15 minutes of fame over there, but I'll take whatever we can get. Yeah, you know, it sucks, though, when someone walks up, hey, can I buy you a beer?
    34:46
    Yeah, I'm going to take a pass. Got jokes, huh? But thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you very much. What else is going on? So the other thing that I wanted to talk about, two things, if you don't mind, Ken. I don't mind at all. So we were talking about a T2 or a getaway being restored. You know, what's that worth when it's highly done, you know, done with, you know, just crazy. We actually had a couple of emails about your getaway ultimate, like, crazy restoration that I will show you after the show. Perfect. So last week there was a gentleman who posted a T2 redone cabinet, chrome decals that are printed on silver.
    35:23
    Nice game. He went through it. put it up for $5,400. I was curious to see where it went, and it did sell. It didn't say what the final sale price was. It was $5,400 for a T2? $5,400. But it was a blinged-out, nice cabinet.
    35:38
    $5,400, though. $5,400. Because there was the $7,000 one that we were talking about. Yeah. I don't know if that ever sold. I didn't follow up on that one. But I saw that other one for $5,400. What's in a $5,400 T2? Chrome decals. Chrome decals? I print. I'm in printing. Chrome decals shouldn't work. it's done appreciate your cabinet like but it's done so there are people four thousand dollars well it seems like there are people that will pay for you know a quality restore like you know your brian kelly restores and stuff so okay i i can get that i mean if there is like that level of restoration yeah i i think fifty four hundred dollars is not out of line at all but it is still a t2 but it doesn't matter man i mean the labor on a high-end restoration is is in the four five six thousand dollar range and that's on not even including your parts or anything like that that's just the labor yeah so you know fifty four hundred dollars could be a steal but then i would question what exactly was the restoration because my idea of a full high-end restoration versus somebody else's idea of a full high-end restoration could be completely totally different things there's a difference between a refurbished pin a shopped pin a restored pin a high restoration pin so i mean Well, here, it's like a Craigslist shop job to a high-end pen shop job. Yeah, I don't know. Craigslist shop job, Windex rags, and make sure the ball shoots. I've seen some of those. I know a couple guys that... Yeah, you picked up one machine. Oh, it works just fine. You got it home, and you're like, dude, I can't wait to offload this thing because it's a heap of crap. Well, yeah. I didn't make it in the house.
    37:16
    I've had pens that have not made it in the house. I didn't make it in the house. That being said, I have never taken in a pin without putting a significant amount of effort in it and asked for more than what I paid, ever. I can honestly, honestly say that. I've never just washed the glass down with Windex and put some wax on the play field and tried to make $1,500. It just doesn't make any sense. There are people that do. And I'm not saying that's bad. That's just not my business practice. You know what? Not just business. Maybe they found a great deal on a game that was clean, You know, just needed a little bit of love and some Windex and turned around and flipped it two days later. See, I know I felt guilty going in to buy. Like I've gone to visit pins on location and it's like, hey, you know, I would like this much for this pin and I go see it. And it's just worth more than what I thought it would be worth because of the condition. I've offered more than what I've agreed upon. And you know what? I've seen that happen. Yeah. And that's just for my own personal conscience, I think. Like, I don't ever want to feel like I took advantage of anybody. And the same thing when I'm reselling something. I don't want to take advantage of somebody.
    38:22
    Enough about me. What do you think about me? No, no, I totally get what you're saying. You want to be fair. You know, good karma. Pinball karma will get you, man. It will totally get you. It will. You got to look out. You know what? Honestly, I just keep getting bit because I keep buying games that are projects or, you know, I want to build a cabinet for it. And then I get, you know, suckered into, you know, a six-month job or a six-month project. or whatever. But you are so meticulous. You want to make the nicest version of anything that you ever want to keep. And I think you have a higher standard of acceptability, if that's a word, than most people do. If I can make it as nice as possible, I'm going to. Mike Fox, God love the man. Mike Fox. In pinball life, he's the warehouse manager. Whenever I start a game, he goes, ah, I see you're building the world's most expensive getaway or the world's most expensive. The most expensive Transformers on the planet. Yeah. Right. You know, so whenever I get a game, he's like, ah, you're building the most expensive one on the planet, I see. Eh, going to start. But you force appreciate those machines in the hobby. But you know what? You don't resell them. You get them and you put your money into them. And what's your famous line? It's only, it's not worth anything if you don't plan on selling it, right? Yeah. It's like, who cares? No. Yeah. It doesn't matter what you dump into it if you plan on keeping it for the long term. Exactly. You know, you don't want to lose on something. But Getaway and T2 are two of the ultimate games, in my opinion, not because of gameplay ability or because of how deep they are, just because those are great themes that I really enjoy.
    39:52
    They were impactful in your life. For sure. And connect me to family. So those are priceless machines that I won't ever get rid of, that at some point I will have one of the nicest around that I know of.
    40:06
    Nicest on the planet? Probably not. Well, you've always said if somebody comes downstairs into your basement in your game room, you want them to go down and look at your row of 10 pins and say to themselves, those are all beautiful examples of every single pin down here that I've ever seen. A stable of show ponies. Yeah, a stable of show ponies. And I can totally appreciate that. So as we progress with our podcast, we promised additional content. So we wanted to add different segments to the show. So the segment that I'd like to introduce tonight on episode number eight is a segment that we call Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is just a personal dialogue or interest or lack thereof that myself and Bill have on any topic, whether it be past, present, or potentially future. So we're going to go ahead and give it a whirl tonight and see how it goes.
    40:58
    It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. so bill i am going to offer a drain it this week and if you don't mind we'll ask you to offer a save it this week we can do it all right so i'm going to speak off the cuff here my drain it this week is this i've been on record as saying on this podcast that there is a convergence of pinball machines that are coming to the market and there are not enough buyers to support all these new machines. That makes sense to me at the time. I had somebody that reached out to me and had changed my mind on this. Because if you think about it, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit about what he had said, back in the heyday, when there were 100,000 pins produced every single year, there was no problem for those machines to find homes, albeit a lot of it to operators. Now, all that being considered, there are pinball machines on location, and that's on the rise, and there are more and more home buyers every single year, it seems. So I don't think that there's a surplus of machines that will be left over because if the machines are done correctly, there will be additional buyers and the market will be able to sustain itself with purchasers. So, Bill, that is my Drain It this week.
    42:16
    So my Save It this week would have to be Deadpool because I'm really enthused to actually play that game. look forward to the stream but actually playing it to see if that's something that I want to add to the collection I love it that's a great save it so I hope you enjoyed this first edition of Drain It and Save It or Save It, if you have a Drain It or Save It that you'd like for us to discuss or you'd like to share, consider reaching out to us at the Special Wind Lit Pinball Podcast and you can do so on Facebook at Special Wind Lit Pinball Podcast or at gmail specialwindlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com special when lit pinball podcast at gmail.com alright Bill so episode number eight you ready to shut it down yeah I think we got everything we did covered Deadpool the Cosmic Carnival and Cosmic Carnival I keep forgetting the name of Cosmic Carnival so yeah because we're thinking like Circus Voltaire and all the other Circus Maximus yeah Circus Maximus pinball circus yeah that's supposed to be made like circuses and pinballs and carnivals are confusing the hell out of me right now, but that's okay. That's okay. So before we close out the show, and I, I'm, I'm going to ask you this. So we're eight episodes into our pinball podcast.
    43:31
    What are you liking so far about this? What are you not liking? Or what have you not expected with the podcast? That's a great question. I really don't have an answer to. Awesome. Well, thank you guys for joining it. It hasn't affected my life other than, doing this once a week where we actually sit in front of microphones other than talking about it normally three to four times a week for an hour on the phone nothing has really changed which now the only thing i take it back the one thing that has changed is the day that we plan on doing podcasts we make sure not to talk anymore so we don't cover all the segments we want to that's exactly right so on so we record the podcasts on tuesday and those podcasts get released either tuesday night or wednesday morning and we make it's like seeing the bride before the wedding right We don talk to each other that day because we just want to be kind of fresh and not ruin any of the completely interesting dialogue right Well it hard being the groom And I kidding It interesting to us I try my best being the groom in this situation Yeah, I'm not really sure what to say about that, Bill. Just poking fun. All right. No pun intended there. And how about you? What are your feelings eight episodes in?
    44:38
    To be honest with you, it's exceeded my expectations as far as people that have taken time out of their days to listen. when we kind of thought about doing this we're like it'd be cool if we could get like 50 or 100 people to kind of just listen to what we have to say in a weekly basis it's gone well above and beyond that and you know where we're not on the upper tier as far as listenership right now that's okay too because for us i don't it's not about us going nuts and trying to get people to follow what we're saying it's just it's fun to be able to express our ideas to be able to further the exposure for pinball in as a positive way as we can. And I want to clarify one thing. I don't want anybody that listens to this podcast to think that we are shills for the pinball industry and that everything is rosy and that everything is perfect and nothing can be bad because I've heard podcasts getting called out about that on other podcasts. And whereas we do take a positive approach to pinball itself, the hobby and the industry, we are in no way biased by any particular company and we are in no way biased whereas we will not offer honest opinions. The difference being I think the way that we express ourselves and interpret our ideas, we try to do so in a respectful manner and we hope that people will appreciate that. Are we going to be cutting edge as far as being ruthless against people? Absolutely not. But are we going to be true and honest to our beliefs? Yes. 100% correct. Well, here, if X, Y, and Z manufacturer tomorrow, you know, they come up with, you know, 10,000 games. They ship them six months down the road. Those games start catching on fire. We're not just going to be like, well, it's a hot game. What do you want me to say? No, no, no. I mean, that's a safety issue or, you know, it's a concern or, you know, buttons falling out of games. We're going to call somebody out on that because that's not right. You know, sir, I mean, all pinball machines are used cars. I don't care if it's brand new or 20 years old. You're always going to have adjustments. You're always going to have cleaning. You're always going to have maintenance. They are used cars, you know. And if I just don't like a machine, I'm not going to get on a soapbox and convince other people that they shouldn't like it either. But I'll say, hey, you know what? This just didn't work out for me. It didn't appeal to me. Well, and honestly, I know that we're going to go a little bit longer on this episode than most, but on Facebook, in the Pinball Enthusiast group, there was somebody that posted a thread saying, what popular pin don't you like? I just bought a World Cup Soccer 94 and just can't get into it. Oh, let's close out the show with this. Do you want to do that? Yeah. Okay. So what's the topic? What's a popular pin that everybody likes that you don't dig? That you don't dig. Yeah. This gentleman, Keith Campbell, posted this in Pinball Enthusiast. He just bought a World Cup soccer and can't get into it. I have a similar situation where I really wanted a revenge for Mars and got 50 games in and it didn't pull me in. You wanted that revenge for Mars for a long time. Bad in the worst way. I had a really nice one too, but it just didn't pull me in, which sucked.
    47:49
    Not that it was a bad game. It just wasn't my style. Yeah, I totally get it. On this list, there's people that put on Theater of Magic, Tales of the Arabian Nights. I did get rid of that pretty quickly, actually. That was the fastest game I ever got rid of. That was real fast.
    48:06
    Adam's Family, Lord of the Rings, Twilight Zone, Spider-Man. These are what people put down. And you know what? Those are some pretty good games. None of those have disappointed me. Yeah. I mean, I haven't really played Spider-Man. Another one on here is Metallica. We could play the Spider-Man Home Edition if you can get on a Supreme. Yeah. I mean, those are cheap to buy. Right. I mean, they're on eBay. Right. No problem. Buy it now. um fishtails twilight zone you know so there's a you know a lot of people that have hatred i'm thinking about you know what mine was and oh my gosh i'm gonna have to put the flame suit on because i'm gonna get killed for this for whatever reason tron i got on tron for the first time i was so excited and uh maybe i didn't put enough time on it i just wasn't feeling it at all it felt really dated to me and it felt i don't know just it just didn't feel like something that i ever would want to own and it's funny because so many people are into tron and it's such a collectible machine and at some point i imagine you'll see it vaulted at stern not for me at all i just i just did not like tron i think the coolest thing about tron are some of the mods that are on tron but as far as the machine itself it didn't speak to me and uh just to kind of repeat what you said doesn't mean it's a bad machine it means it didn't speak to me to you and that's what's awesome because you know what i'm one less guy somebody's competing against to get a tron So there's enough Trons to go around. So you're driving the value down on that game. No, I'm not. Well, yeah, you're not going after it or trying buying it. I'm not driving it up. I'm not driving it down. I shouldn't even be considered in the purchasing of that machine. Just being a smart aleck. I like it. No, but here's one that you and I can both disagree on. Lethal Weapon 3. I think it's a great value pin for what it is. Shots are a little clunky. But for the most part, it's like a glorified T2. It's exactly what it is. It's a T2 that got... There was a lawsuit against it. There was, but it has cool animations. It's not an easy game to shoot. There are more modes than T2. I'm not a big fan of the art package. I still like T2 more. If somebody said I could have a T2 or a Lethal Weapon 3 and I could buy the T2 for $3,000 or I could get the Lethal Weapon for $1,000, I would happily pay the $3,000 for the T2. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. But that's just personal. Okay, okay, okay. Oh, my gosh. But that's just personal preference, though. It is personal, and that's what makes it great. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. If everybody liked the same thing all the time, I mean, there would be no fun. And the one thing that kind of pinged me on this post that this guy had was, you know, reading all those comments that people have put in Adam's family just because, you know, I was like 12 years old when Adam's family came out. It was two blocks down the street from me, and I pumped a million quarters in that game, too. Yep. So, you know, I love that game, you know, now until forever. But, you know, the people that don't like Adam's Family might like Tron. You know what? I'll be honest. Like, Adam's Family's cool. For me, it doesn't live up to the hype. I liked it. I've played yours, and yours is set up beautifully, and it's a fun pin. But that did not – it's not something that I dislike. It's not something that I would go out of my way to buy. And if you've noticed, in the years we've known each other, have you ever once said to me or heard me say that, oh, I'm looking for an Addams Family? No, you have not. You said that you were looking forward. But when you first came over to play it, you were like, I'm looking forward to playing this to see if this lives. And I'll never forget when you jumped off. And you played for a good 45 minutes, and you actually completed the house. And you actually made it real far in the game. But you were like, yeah, it's a pretty cool game. It is pretty cool. I still like Twilight Zone better. Right. And that's the thing. You're comparing it to another Pat Lawler game that shoots. I think it's – and I'm a Pat Lawler fan, like not even knowing that I'm a Pat Lawler fan because my pinball history with Earthshaker and, I mean – Twilight Zone dialed in. For whatever reason, I've just been a Pat Lawler guy. But yeah, Adam's family wasn't too big. Let me ask you this. What's the biggest disappointment you've ever played, whether it was good or bad as far as the general public's concerned? And I'll share mine real quick. Okay. So when I first really started getting into the pinball purchasing, like I wanted to acquire machines, I needed to find things that were affordable. And I knew what, again, I hate to bring up Earthshaker again, but I liked Earthshaker. It was a System 11. I had since purchased some DMD pins like Judge Dredd and Twilight Zone. and with just to add something where i could learn on repair i ended up buying a a system 11 millionaire and at the time i thought i got a really good price on it i i don't remember what i paid and i got this thing home and i was pretty proud of myself because it was a lot less than what i had paid uh for earthshaker years prior and i'm like this is going to be my fixer-up machine I'm going to bling it out and it's just going to be my collection forever. And it's going to be my tutorial machine. I'm gonna learn all about it, dude. I got that thing home and, uh, not good, man. Like I, I just, I plunged a ball on it and I was like, wow, that was really unfulfilling. Let me do this one more time. I plunged another one. And then I thought to myself, I don't want to fix anything out of oddness at all. I needed to get the hell out of my house. and I apologize for anybody that was associated with that pin again it just didn't speak to me and it was uh it was uh an annoyance to me that I had expended the time to go pick it up that being said I had a beautiful cabinet artwork play feel was in good shape and it did have kind of like a little rotating skill shot on there which I thought was cool at the time but it just wasn't good to you that doesn't mean that to me to me it wasn't good that that just means that you know trying to prove our honesty here like yeah oh yeah right didn't didn't like it here i think there will be no shows covering millionaire no no no there will not well unless you're trying to part one out and turn into like a scared stiff right if a party is uh alvira and the party monsters or something that you'd have to go that way let me know how that works yeah um what about you honestly the The one game. Biggest letdown. The biggest letdown. When I was a kid, I used to watch Gilligan's Island during the middle of summer because my parents worked and my sisters watched me, and that was like the only thing on during the middle of the day.
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    So then went to Pinball Life's open house like three, four years ago and they had a Gilligan's Island. I'm like, this is badass, man. I can't wait to play this game. After ball one, I was just praying for the power to go out. Oh, isn't that horrible? Because I didn't want to be that jag that left two balls on a game for somebody to start. Oh, that was brutal to me. Did you finish the game? Yes, I did. Well, I plunged the balls and didn't touch the flippers. Oh. Yeah. And this is funny because this week at Pinball Podcast, which Jeff hosts with Zach, they have a cool segment. It's like confessions, and it's at the end of their show. And if you haven't listened to this week in Pinball Podcast, check it out, thisweekinpinball.com. They pretty much cover everything that's newsworthy on Mondays and Tuesdays, and they update as it goes. But my biggest confession as we're on the topic of pinball machines that we think are bad is when I went to Expo when they were revealed, dialed in. I waited in line like six or seven people deep, and I plunged my first ball, and I hated it. I'm like, you know what? This is ridiculous. This theme is ridiculous. There's like an electric-looking guy that's a stick figure that's going across the play field. I plunged one ball that maybe lasted 40 seconds. And as an idiot, I turned away and let somebody else finish my game because I was that sure that that game sucked. And since then, I bought a dialed-in LE, and that's one of the coolest, greatest shooting pins of all time of any game that I've ever, ever, ever played. And it's Pat Lawler. And you know what?
    56:18
    That's also a testament too to just saying that sometimes when you play some of these games, you're not playing the best example and it's going to be a terrible game.
    56:26
    Yeah, I guess. Because you never know. You know what? I gave Millionaire more than one ball, more than one game. It just didn't appeal to me. No, yeah, and then you're going to have those too. But there are games that you'll play that you thought sucked in the beginning and were cool at the end. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But on that note. On that note, let's wrap up episode number eight. What do you say? Yeah. So we're going to close the show up by letting you know again how to contact us. And you can contact us on Facebook at Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. And you can contact us via email at SpecialWhenLitPinballPodcast at gmail.com. This week, what we'd like to try to do is try to get people to interact on the page or interact via email. We'd like to include your user feedback in the show. So if you get an opportunity and you feel you got an extra two or three minutes, contact us and let us know what's going on. And we'd like to discuss your topics on the air. If you have an idea for topics, let us know. On the other side of things, we cannot disclose who we have coming up, but we have the guest in pinball for pinball podcasts. A few guests.
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    Yes, but the guests. And we also have the contest for those that are listening to the podcast with a really, really cool prize. And the great thing about this is it's all free. And we haven't figured out how we're exactly going to tease this or exactly how we're going to go ahead and announce this contest. But the contest will be for those of you that have been faithful and listened to our podcasts. You will benefit more on this particular contest than anybody else that's just dropping in to check out what's going on with the contest. So to reward those that have listened to the last seven, now eight episodes, you're in the driver's seat for something that's really, really cool. And we hope to announce that next week because that interview is going to be happening in two weeks. If there's anything that we do for you guys, it's going to try to give you honest, honest to God, awesome content as best as we can. Yeah. And I think that's it, man. So let's wrap up episode number eight. We do the same thing every single show. Guys, thank you so much for listening. We really, really appreciate it. I hope you really enjoyed it. And on that note, you guys have a good morning, good afternoon, good night, whenever you're listening. but you know have a good day in general thank you two brothers artisan brewing for the sponsorship thank you jerry thompson for some of the help with the voiceover work and whatever you do don't forget to take some time out of your day to play some pinball for bill webb i'm ken cromwell thanks for listening to episode 8 of the special when lit pinball podcast