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Ep 38: Fantastic Mr. Fox

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 15m·held·Jul 25, 2021
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Joe Fox discusses Pro vs. Premium pinball collecting trends and tournament play shifts.

Summary

Joe Fox joins Final Round to discuss his evolving preferences in pinball collecting and gameplay—shifting from premium/LE machines toward pro models and tournament-focused play as he prioritizes game flow over spectacle. The hosts conduct a detailed Pro vs. Premium/LE analysis across recent Stern titles (Mandalorian, Led Zeppelin, Avengers, TMNT, Stranger Things, Jurassic Park), debating whether premium features justify their cost. Discussion also covers the upcoming PinFest event, post-lockdown tournament planning in Australia and the US, the formation of the Delaware Pinball Collective, and how pandemic-driven new money has inflated the secondary market.

Key Claims

  • Joe Fox's collecting preferences have shifted from always buying LEs to preferring Pro models for better gameplay flow, especially as he's gotten into tournaments.

    high confidence · Joe Fox, discussing his evolution: 'every Stern new in the box that I was buying was an L.E.... as time progressed, I found myself leaning more towards wanting gameplay and less towards glim and glamour.'

  • The T-Rex animation in Jurassic Park (Premium/LE)/Premium creates a 15-20 second slowdown during T-Rex multiball that frustrates tournament-focused players.

    high confidence · Joe Fox: 'when you start T-Rex multiball and the dino eats the ball, it's a good 15-20 seconds that that game has slowed down'

  • Pandemic lockdowns and remote work drove nearly double the number of new people into pinball collecting, many with disposable income seeking hobbies.

    medium confidence · Joe Fox: 'I think the thing that we're not going to mention by its name over the last year and a half has actually brought probably almost double the amount of people into this hobby than it had a year and a half ago.'

  • The Mandalorian (Premium/LE) rotating helmet upper playfield adds a challenge but also creates a gameplay stoppage that's quick.

    high confidence · Joe Fox discussing Mandalorian: 'once you get past bonus level one, that thing starts to invert, and you are pretty much dead in the water.... it is a stoppage, of course, because the game stops and it goes into play field, but it moves quick.'

  • The Delaware Pinball Collective location fell through after a verbal agreement; the group is now looking for a new space targeting September/October opening.

    high confidence · Joe Fox: 'We had a verbal from the landlord that our offer was accepted... On day 14, we said, hey, where's the lease? And they said, oh, sorry, we rented it to somebody else...'

  • PinFest vendor floor is still showing significant empty spaces as of the episode recording, raising uncertainty about vendor and attendee turnout.

    high confidence · Marty: 'I looked at the vendor floor plan that the show puts out on the website. And there's a lot of empty boxes or a lot of red spaces that say available still.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I'm more impatient as I've gotten older.”

    Joe Fox — Encapsulates his shift from collecting premium/LE machines to preferring faster-flowing Pro models for tournament play.

  • “It's chocolate and vanilla. What you like, Jeff, is going to be different than what Marty likes. It's going to be different than what I like. And the best part of it is that we can all coexist.”

    Joe Fox — Key philosophy statement about the diversity of player preferences and community acceptance in pinball.

  • “The problem with LEs isn't the game. It's the people buying them sight unseen and, oh, I don't know, maybe flipping them.”

    Marty Rosenthal — Highlights the secondary market flipping problem inflating LE prices rather than fundamental game design issues.

  • “I think the thing that we're not going to mention by its name over the last year and a half has actually brought probably almost double the amount of people into this hobby than it had a year and a half ago.”

    Joe Fox — Confirms pandemic-driven FOMO-driven market expansion and wealth influx into pinball collecting.

  • “I loved pinball all my life, but I want to buy my first machine.”

    Marty Rosenthal — Evidence of new collector cohort entering the hobby post-pandemic.

  • “Do I want to put all the effort into something that two days before we may go into lockdown again?”

    Ian (Melbourne-based, last name not provided) — Illustrates organizer uncertainty in pandemic-affected regions regarding event planning.

  • “I will always open my home to this community as long as I need to and as many times as I need to.”

    Joe Fox — Shows commitment to hosting tournaments despite personal stress until the Delaware Pinball Collective is established.

  • “PinFest was the first pinball show that I ever attended when I got into the hobby... it's become more of a collector social event than I think it is a flea market slash swap meet like it used to be.”

    Joe Fox — Documents evolution of PinFest from swap meet to social gathering as admission incentives replaced sales focus.

Entities

Joe FoxpersonMarty RosenthalpersonJeff LeepersonIanpersonCorey StuppersonRodneypersonFinal Round Pinball PodcastorganizationStern PinballcompanyDelaware Pinball Collective

Signals

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Tournament-focused players increasingly prefer Pro models over Premium/LE due to reduced gameplay stoppages and animation delays (T-Rex in Jurassic Park, Electric Magic magnet holds in Metallica, etc.), prioritizing game flow and speed.

    high · Joe Fox's explicit transition from LE-only to Pro-first collecting strategy aligned with tournament play; Marty's frustration with Sparky Multiball magnet hold and inability to double-flip out of modes.

  • $

    market_signal: Pandemic-driven new money entering pinball hobby has inflated LE secondary market prices; new collectors with high disposable income driving speculative flips and FOMO purchases sight-unseen.

    high · Joe Fox: 'I think the thing that we're not going to mention by its name over the last year and a half has actually brought probably almost double the amount of people into this hobby... Mando for any other game prior to it When all the LEs typically sell out within a few days, they're now paying top dollar.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern's Premium/LE pricing justified case-by-case: Mandalorian/Stranger Things Premium features are meaningful (rotating helmet, projector), while Led Zeppelin Electric Magic and Avengers banana ramp add marginal value for $1,600+ premium.

    high · Systematic Pro vs. Premium/LE comparison across recent titles; Joe Fox and Marty debate feature-to-cost ratio with split opinions (Led Zeppelin Electric Magic disabled by Marty after weeks, Stranger Things projector valued as essential for theme integration).

  • ?

    event_signal: PinFest 2021 showing significant vendor dropout (red spaces/empty booths on floor plan); uncertain whether vendors or attendees will show up, indicating potential vendor hesitation or logistical challenges post-lockdown.

    medium · Marty: 'I looked at the vendor floor plan that the show puts out on the website. And there's a lot of empty boxes or a lot of red spaces that say available still. So I'm curious, you know, are the vendors not going to be there, but the people are going to be there?'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.228

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round Well look who's back It's another edition of Final Round My name is Geoff Teel My name is Martin Robbins It's good to be back A week late But better than never Kind of Is it a week late Or did we just you know Kind of hold out for some negotiations To get some A little more bucks in our pocket You know what I'm talking about That's right We hold out. There was contract negotiations. We all got a pay increase. I think we're now getting about a million dollars per episode. Tough negotiations, but ultimately, Zach has so much money, he's just given it over. We did it so that we can keep the show free for you, all right? So if we hold out on the back end, that makes it easier for you, the listener. So you're welcome. We'll still be asking for money reach-around time, but the point is, speaking of asking for money, How come we have to pay to be here if you guys are making a million dollars?
1:33
Yeah. That might be our biggest reach around winner ever. And when I say winner. You mean sucker. No, no, no. Best friend to the pinball community is what we really mean. Boy. And by the way, never too early to buy your 2022 reach around. Just pointing that out. His name is Joe Fox and he joins us right now. Hello, Joe. Hello, gentlemen. How are we today? Very good. It's funny, Joe, because obviously we speak time to time, but you're now just about on every freaking podcast these days. How did that happen? I guess I had a lot of money involved. I'm not sure.
2:11
Yeah. No, I don't know. I seem to somehow gravitate towards podcasters in some way. I guess I stalked them, and they didn't call the cops. Some are good guys. Well, so I've obviously spoken to you a couple of times. I've always stated that you are really the voice of the customer. You're the person that really has a really important opinion when it comes to the quality of the machines, the themes of the layout, how it's marketed. That's why I think you're an important person. There you go. Well, I appreciate that. I definitely have my opinions on the matter, and they have changed over the years as time has evolved and the hobby has evolved for me. but I do feel like I have a good sense of what people are looking for, what the majority of the opinion may be. What's been the biggest change? If you were talking to the Joe Fox four years ago, what opinion now is different than Joe four years ago? So there'd be probably two primary opinions. Number one would be my greater dive into the older games, you know, the late 70s, early 80s, still staying with solid states, but definitely gravitating more towards Stars and Meteor and 8-Ball Deluxe and Harlem Globetrotters and Paragon and those type of titles as opposed to every new Stern, new in the box or every new Chicago, however you want to press it. The other main category is every Stern new in the box that I was buying was an L.E. because in my mind I had to have the best of the best. But as time progressed, I found myself leaning more towards wanting gameplay and less towards glim and glamour. So I found myself feeling that 93% of the titles that they would come out with, the pro was a very good game to have in your collection and it was it was better flow and better gameplay the premium le and obviously we're talking mostly about stern because they're the primary provider but would slow the game down um as much as everyone is enamored by the dinosaur in jurassic park essentially that slows the game down for a good you know when you start T-Rex multiball and the dino eats the ball, it's a good 15-20 seconds that that game has slowed down and as I've gravitated more towards tournaments, I realize I want the game to move and let's go and let's go and let's go instead of watching a show. So you become more impatient as you go older is what I'm hearing. Yes, I'm more impatient as I've gotten older.

  • IFPA stopped sanctioning events until August 1st, causing Corey Stup to opt out of running the traditional PinFest tournament this year.

    high confidence · Joe Fox: 'the IFPA is not sanctioning events until August 1st.... Corey Stup and company... opted out of doing it for this year because... they weren't necessarily ready for it because they didn't know if the show was going to go on.'

  • Joe Fox's first IFPA-sanctioned tournament in Delaware will be on August 7th, featuring a double event (flip frenzy and match play).

    high confidence · Joe Fox: 'The first IFPA-sanctioned tournament in Delaware will be here at my house on August the 7th. It's a double event.'

  • Australia's Melbourne is in its fifth lockdown, affecting the Brisbane Masters event and creating uncertainty for end-of-year tournaments like Flip Out and the Melbourne Super Bowl Championship.

    high confidence · Ian (Melbourne-based): 'We are currently in our fifth lockdown. New South Wales, so Sydney in New South Wales, has had a massive outbreak...'

  • Stranger Things (Premium/LE) (Premium/LE)/LE's projector feature significantly enhances theme integration over the Pro version's static building montage.

    medium confidence · Joe Fox: 'I think the projector by itself brings so much more to the game.... it brings so much more integration where if you have the graphics on the screen and you can say, okay, I'm not looking up, I don't care what's on the screen. That's true. But you can visibly see the ramps and the banners and the drop targets and the spinners and the main screen as you're playing.'

    • organization
    IFPAorganization
    PinFestevent
    Brisbane Mastersevent
    Flip Outevent
    Melbourne Super Bowl Championshipevent
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Mandaloriangame
    Led Zeppelingame
    The Avengersgame
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    Stranger Thingsgame
    Metallicagame
    Guardians of the Galaxygame
    Iron Maidengame
    Pinball Hall of Famevenue
    Stern Pro Circuitorganization
  • ?

    venue_signal: Traditional venue-based tournaments (PinFest, major shows) disrupted by IFPA sanctioning delays; home-based and garage tournaments filling gap (Delaware tournaments at Joe Fox's house, future Delaware Pinball Collective).

    high · Joe Fox running unsanctioned tournaments at home since June 2020; first IFPA-sanctioned tournament moving to Delaware on August 7th after Corey Holson/PinFest opt-out; Collective formation aimed at dedicated tournament space.

  • ?

    operational_signal: Delaware Pinball Collective location hunt hitting obstacles: verbal agreement rescinded without notice, forcing pivot to suboptimal second-floor space with logistics challenges (moving 50+ machines up stairs).

    high · Joe Fox detailed location falling through post-Fourth of July; now evaluating 4,000 sq ft second-floor space with garage; timeline pushed from July/August to September/October.

  • ?

    community_signal: Community eager to return to in-person events after lockdowns; expressed anxiety about turnout variability but optimism about reconnecting with players met only via messenger/phone.

    medium · Marty: 'I'm curious how the turnout's going to be... I can't wait. I'm curious how the turnout's going to be, because on one side of you go, oh, everyone's going to be so amped to get back to a show.'

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: Australian lockdowns (Melbourne 5th lockdown, NSW Delta outbreak) forcing Brisbane Masters and end-of-year tournaments to reduce capacity and restrict inter-state travel; event viability becoming day-to-day contingency.

    high · Ian: 'We are currently in our fifth lockdown...Melbourne... can't have other states come to it. So it will have reduced attendance... Until it's completely gone, everything's got to be we don't know.'

  • ?

    industry_signal: New tournament federation emerging ('UFC' reference, initials not stated) competing with/alongside IFPA; causing confusion and player/organizer hesitation; PinFest opting into new federation rather than IFPA in 2021.

    medium · Joe Fox: 'I can't remember the initials for this new group. You may know who I'm talking about, but essentially I call them the UFC, this new little federation... They're supposed to be running a tournament there, and I have not really delved into any of the details.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Pandemic-driven influx of new first-time machine buyers entering secondary market; visible on Facebook Marketplace pinball groups with commentary like 'I've loved pinball all my life, but I want to buy my first machine'.

    high · Marty: 'now that I'm thinking about it, in the Facebook marketplace type pinball sites, a lot of people I'm now seeing are saying, hey, I've loved pinball all my life, but I want to buy my first machine.'

  • ?

    venue_signal: PinFest evolved from flea market/swap meet to primarily collector social gathering; free admission incentive for game display holders replaced profit-motive sales model; business model shift toward participation/sponsorship over transaction fees.

    high · Joe Fox: 'it's become more of a collector social event than I think it is a flea market slash swap meet like it used to be... people are bringing game for people to play and try out, but they're not necessarily for sale like I would imagine they used to be.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Tension between spectacle features (T-Rex animation, projectors, rotating helmets, spinning objects) and tournament gameplay preferences; designers balancing accessibility/marketing appeal against competitive flow.

    high · Joe Fox questioning longevity of spectacle appeal: 'How many of these unique things are really unique after several plays in any game?'; Marty countering: 'sometimes it's a really good feature in a promo video that moves games.'

    • 4:48
    I'm the same and one of the things that really frustrates me is if a multiball or a mode starts and I can't double flip to get that out of the way so I can move on. Very frustrating. Yeah, I was playing Metallica earlier, and no matter how many times I play that game, I still obviously, not obviously, I absolutely adore it. But yes, starting Sparky Multiball, I'm hitting the flippers, I'm still realizing that it's not going to go any faster, and I just have to deal with it. Isn't it a nice bonus when you start Sparky Multiball, but the ball actually doesn't stay on the magnet, so it actually starts playing, and you get a few seconds of extra time? I like that. Yes. Yeah, or even Iron Maiden, if the balls going up into that left or inner orbit don't make it and they kick into play and you can at least start playing in a hidden jackpot type of idea. Yeah. Can you disable the magnet in Sparky so that it, in fact, gets you into multiball quicker? I don't know. Probably. I'd have to try it. I would assume you can because it's optos that effectively register the hit, so it's not like it's a true bash toy with a switch. So I'd have to imagine you could. On my Guardians, I've disabled the Groot Mouth, which is good and bad. It's bad for certain modes in which you want the ball back in the plunger so that you can maybe fire it into the pops, and that gives you whatever the point may be towards your mode. But it's good because in multiball, a lot of times when the mouth goes up and down, Sometimes in multi-ball, the ball will stick in the mouth, and then you've got a stuck ball in multi-ball, which in competitions you have to cradle up. It's a pain in the butt, but it's also harder to get jackpots. We have it to the point where the balls don't stay. It's a virtual lock. So you still will knock it in the group's mouth, but it will spit it right back out with a two-second ball saver.
    6:39
    I mean, the one good thing about group multi-ball is when you pop it in the mouth, it stays in there, so then you're in single-ball play, which is a lot easier to maybe hit some of the jackpots. But getting the major jackpot, you've got to time it just perfectly. So it's some give and take there. But I see your point about balls being stuck and certainly getting into it and wanting to double flip. Obviously, I've got Led Zeppelin, and that is a game where you just don't rest ever. And it's funny you were saying, Joe, you just want to get at it, and some of these features kind of slow things down. Because the song is always going and you only have so much time to get your records, you just keep playing and playing. and I've said it before, that game is a workout to me because I can only play maybe two games in a row, and then I'm spent because they're long playing, but you just don't ever get to rest up. The longer you wait, you're only hurting yourself. Yeah, I don't disagree. I mean, I'd rather have a game like that, in my opinion, to not rest up than to sit there and have so much idle time where you're waiting for a ball to come down or you're waiting for something else to happen.
    7:38
    I think it's just preference. I mean, the one thing about this hobby is, as much as people will fight on opposite sides of their opinion, is that it's chocolate and vanilla. I mean, what you like, Jeff, is going to be different than what Marty likes. It's going to be different than what I like. And the best part of it is that we can all coexist. We don't need to try to kill each other in order to prove that Metallica is the best game ever made or Lord of the Rings is the best game ever made. I do wish people would understand that more sometimes but the great part of it is we all can love pinball as a whole and speaking of opinions that could be right or wrong I'm going to go back to the early thing that you were saying about le's and premiums and pros right because in a lot of instances I agree with you that sometimes the pro is enough and it flows a bit more but I just want to do a quick exercise, if I can, by going through some of the last Stern machines, and let's get that definitive opinion on whether we think the Pro is enough. Okay? I'm going to start with Mandalorian. Okay. So I have not played the Pro. I do have an LE that I did not intend to actually buy. We're open, but I have. Sure. Wait a second. I heard you on Zach Menny's show, on the Pinball Show, saying, I'm done buying LEs. What the hell happened? So what happened was the comment Marty made is the older I get, the more impatient I get. I bought it with honestly the sole intention of selling it. Call me a bad guy or call me whatever you will. Son of a bitch comes to mind, actually, if I really – but those are Marty's words, not mine. So it got delivered on a Friday. I put it up for sale, and come Sunday morning, I looked in the garage. It was still there. I had a few people in with interest, but nobody that was stepping up to the plate. And I said, you know what? Screw this. I'm opening it. I took it downstairs. And my wife said, I thought you were selling that. And I said, oh, I will eventually. But for right now, it's going down the basement. And I opened it up. Yeah, you'll still be able to sell it. But OK, to Marty's question. So you played the LE. It looks spectacular. It's funny. This exercise, Marty, I know you definitely know Rodney. I'm not sure if, Jeff, you know Rodney. I know Rodney, yeah. So we've done this exercise a couple of times. And we've circled through every game since like 2000, since they started making the three levels to figure out which games were doable. But that upper play field, the Mando helmet that rotates 180 degrees, is a hell of a challenge. I mean, once you get past bonus level one, that thing starts to invert, and you are pretty much dead in the water. So it's definitely not a – it is a stoppage, of course, because the game stops and it goes into play field, but it moves quick. The other major advantage to the premium-slash-LE is what I'll call the diverter on the horseshoe shot, where if it's up, you're hitting a horseshoe similar to a silver ball mani or space invaders, which is very quick. But if it's down, it's then going and diverting it into the wire form, but still the ball is constantly moving. so I believe knowing the differences I would think The Mandalorian is a game that a premium LE definitely has some advantages to What about Led Zeppelin? So Led Zeppelin I believe I mean to me the only real attribute to the premium and I do have a premium and I know you have the LE so it's similar obviously the same without the glamour is the electric magic and I have zero problems with mine and have since the day i got it fuck you well at least i also didn't need a whole new play field either so that's good but i think a pro is serviceable on that game i have played the pro and the electric magic although it is a cool feature and it does keep the game moving aside from that one stoppage where it takes the ball down i don't think you you miss it tremendously in the pro i think the game overall maybe misses some things from what other modern sterns have But if you're just comparing that game of the two levels or quasi three levels, I think the pro is very serviceable. I got to tell you, I have an LE, but I play it like a pro with the exception of the side upper flipper shot. I've had my electric magic disabled three, four weeks. I'd like to play it. I can't rely on it. I asked last show if anybody could help me. Didn't get anybody reaching out to give me a hand on that. And I don't feel like I'm missing it. It actually bothered me sometimes when it came up because, I don't know, it's not like the spinner is closer than the left spinner. In fact, I think it's even further away, but you hit it so quickly, and when it's in multiball, as you are with Electric Magic, if you hit that thing when it's spinning, you're going to dent it, and then it gets stuck, and it's a problem I have. So I've just disabled it because it was too frustrating. So I just like, okay. So I play it like a pro, but I thought that was the thing I was going to like the most. I really like the upper flipper shot going into the right in lane. Yeah, I remember early on, I think when you did play the Pro, you had said that that side upper flipper shop on the Pro wasn't satisfying, and it felt a little bit weird. It's just a stand-up, right, in the Pro? It's just a stand-up target? Yeah. But when you look at the price difference, is it that much of a difference? It's $1,600 US, essentially, for that rising spinner.
    13:00
    Yeah. So I think I'd be fine with the Pro. Yep. Avengers? I prefer the Pro and Avengers. I know that banana ramp shot is cool to look at, but I'll take the spinner on that all day, in my opinion. I mean, there's a couple other changes, obviously, with the glove in the back, which is non-essential to gameplay, and the wasp shot with the, what is it, a stand-up versus a scoop. But I'd rather have that spinner all day long for the Captain Marvel shot. Boy, I would flip a coin on that. I like both versions. So I haven't played the Premium or LE. I've seen a lot of footage of it, but I love the pro layout. I was very impressed with that. But maybe you like the subways. I like that the Doctor Strange lifts up and you can go underneath. That's kind of cool, a la Cirque du Soleil. We disabled that for tournaments too. Oh, really? Was it a problem? So it wasn't a problem in the functioning of it. What it was a problem with is, and maybe this was code that's been changed since, but when you put a ball in the subway and you lock it, forgive me, I forget whatever lock that was, when the next person comes up and gets to a mode where they can then unlock that ball, it turns it into a multi-ball for the next person. So it became an issue from obviously unfair advantage with a tournament, so we just shut it off. It wasn't a function issue. My LE did not have an issue with balls getting stuck in the subway or not being able to go down that catwalk type of situation. It was more of an unfair advantage in a tournament situation. A couple more. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. None. No. So I am a massive fan of this machine. I can't explain it. There's something about this game I absolutely love. I would take the pro of this. Yeah, if I had to give a real answer, it would be the pro. The diverter, to me, doesn't do a ton. Seeing those balls pour out of the van, again, is a show, not a game function as much. So I would say yes, it's definitely a pro there. Do you know, these moments in pinball, You mentioned Jurassic Park and on the premium in LE, the ball going into the T-Rex, it's shaking it, spinning it out. That's cool the first time, second time, third time. How often is it cool, though? And you talk about the van in Turtles. How many of these unique things are really unique after several plays in any game? I get what you mean, but sometimes it's a really good feature in a promo video that moves games. Absolutely. Yep. And speaking of, the next one, Stranger Things. Premium. Yeah. I think the, forget the TK lock that may or may not work on most games, I think the projector by itself brings so much more to the game. Obviously it doesn't affect the gameplay because it doesn't have anything to do with your flippers or the ball stopping or starting anywhere. It just brings so much more integration where if you have the graphics on the screen and you can say, okay, I'm not looking up, I don't care what's on the screen. That's true. But you can visibly see the ramps and the banners and the drop targets and the spinners and the main screen as you're playing. And it brings so much more to bringing the theme into the game versus the pro of just being that static building montage. Marty, where are you going with all this? Where I'm going with it is a lot of people say, you know what, just always get the pro. You only need the pro. And really what I wanted to do was just one by one look at them and say, well, actually, that's not really the case. It is case by case. It's also your preference. Because the next one I was going to talk about was Jurassic Park because you were saying, oh, you know, the T-Rex gets boring. For me, it doesn't. For me, I fucking love that T-Rex just grabbing the ball and going, I never get sick of it. So it's personal. But the point is for people to really understand what's important to them and not just blindly say, well, premiums and LEs are for suckers or people that have got too much money. And because that's the general consensus that I get when people are trying to put their flimsy arguments together. And I just wanted to go through them because I really do think that there are a lot of games that you are better off getting a premium, not necessarily LE. I think the jump from premium to LE is the problem there because I don't think there's a lot of value for money there just on paper. It's all about exclusivity and some better cosmetic stuff. Like I know you do get the upgraded speakers as well, but that's really what it was. I think that there are a lot more games out there that do benefit from the premium experience that people give credit. That was my point. The problem with LEs isn't the game. It's the people buying them sight unseen and, oh, I don't know, maybe flipping them. And I don't blame them for doing that. I mean, no, Joe, I don't. Listen, I know how many you've bought in the past, and that's never been the intent of you buying them. So I'm not speaking of you. Can I blame you for wanting to do that with Mando for this? No, because you're not alone. There's probably 700 people that are thinking the same thing that made the purchase. Is that what is wrong with our collecting and this hobby? Is that we're just, we are, as collectors, driving the price through the fucking roof? Well, I think driving the price through the fucking roof comment, I've had this conversation with multiple people over the last few weeks, is I think the thing that we're not going to mention by its name over the last year and a half has actually brought probably almost double the amount of people into this hobby than it had a year and a half ago. People that had money to burn that would normally be going to Fiji or this place or this place, spending tons of money on these vacations and not having it saying, what am I going to do at home? And they're Googling things and the internet is more prevalent than it ever has been. And finding out that pinball is still something real and having these people that go, oh shit, I loved Ghostbusters, but oh the LE was sold out five years ago but somebody going to post it So I going to pay for it because I want it You bringing in a whole new set of blood or a new bloodline into this hobby that wasn around if it was before Mando for any other game prior to it When all the LEs typically sell out within a few days, they're now paying top dollar for things because they want it and they have the means. and then they start looking at other titles and realize that they can get, you know, there's 2,500 different games in the history of pinball and because they can't get it anywhere else and there's no new in box junkyards or there's no new in box totems that they pay ridiculous amounts of money and that everyone sees it happening and it's monkey see, monkey do. Do you know what? It's funny you should say that because now that I'm thinking about it, in the Facebook marketplace type pinball sites, a lot of people I'm now seeing are saying, hey, I've loved pinball all my life, but I want to buy my first machine. I've got to say, now that you say that, I've noticed that a lot more in the last 12 months. New people wanting to buy machines for the first time. You're about to find out this weekend because there's this little thing in your neck of the woods called Pinfest, formerly Allentown, and I've never been to it. It's a big swap shop. There is some tournament action too, but a lot of the deals are made even before it opens up. I've never been. Tell me and those people listening that have never been, what's it like? So Pin Fest was the first pinball show that I ever attended when I got into the hobby. It was close to me. It's about an hour and a half, hour and 40-minute drive from Delaware to that part of Pennsylvania. And it had the reputation for being a big-time flea market slash swap meet type of event where, yeah, like you said, everything was outside under tents. People are selling all these old games. Now it's grown into a, calling it a mini-TPF would be almost insulting to TPF, and I don't want to insult Allentown either, but it's become more of a collector social event than I think it is a flea market slash swap meet like it used to be. I would say the amount of games that are on display are now not longer people trying to sell games as much as using that, because they give you a deal. So if you put a game on the floor, you'll get admission for free. So people are bringing game for people to play and try out, but they're not necessarily for sale like I would imagine they used to be. And it really just becomes another social event on the calendar. I can't wait. I mean, honestly, it's been obviously a long time since we've had a show. Is this going to be the first one since this all started? Has anything happened? I guess it was that Ohio show last year that was a first-time event that they actually did, right? Well, Brisbane Masters is on right now, and that's not so much a show, is it, Marty? Or did that not happen? No, it actually has started this week. It's less of a swap meet than it is now a social event. I'm really amped to get back to a show and get back to seeing people that I may talk to via messenger or even on the phone, but I don't get to see but once or twice a year. So I can't wait. I'm curious how the turnout's going to be, because on one side of you go, oh, everyone's going to be so amped to get back to a show. It's going to be like, you know, just poor people are just going to be pouring out of the building. And the other half of me says, is everybody ready to come back yet? Like they may be doing this, but and I may be going. But is everybody else going to be ready? And it's funny, I looked at the vendor floor plan that the show puts out on the website. And there's a lot of empty boxes or a lot of red spaces that say available still. So I'm curious, you know, are the vendors not going to be there, but the people are going to be there? Or is it going to be hand-in-hand vendors and people? I'm not sure. It'll be fun to see next week what happens. And that is, like, you know, Jeff mentioned, Brisbane Masters. I think it's the Brisbane Pinball and Arcade Collective BPAC because it is arcade and machines and pinball. Again, it all looked fine. Everything was going ahead. And then all of a sudden, Melbourne, right now, so where I am, We're in our fifth lockdown. Just thought I'd let everybody know. Hi, Ian. We are currently in our fifth lockdown. New South Wales, so Sydney in New South Wales, has had a, we call it a massive outbreak. It's still, you know, 200 cases, but that's still considered big here and it's the Delta strain. So it's going crazy. So all of a sudden BPAC, which was thinking that we're all over the lockdowns, everything's fine. all of a sudden can't have other states come to it. So it will have reduced attendance.
    23:32
    And I'm coming back to me thinking about the end of the year when we've got Flip Out and the Melbourne Super Bowl Championship because people are still asking me, is it going to be on? My take on it is I'd love to say, yeah, let's just go ahead with it and if something happens, we'll cancel it. Whereas, you know, there's so much that I'm doing at the moment. Do I want to put all the effort into something that two days before we may go into lockdown again? It's tough. I mean, until it's completely gone, everything's got to be we don't know. And that's all well and good to say, hey, are you going to go to Texas? Are you going to go to Chicago Expo? Are you going to? But if you're the organizer, it can't just be, oh, we'll see. And we'll decide three days beforehand if it's still going to happen. Yeah. I have booked four trips between September and November. That being said, our border isn't open as of yet. And as of the time I'm recording this, it could change. But I'm still planning on going. And three of them are pinball related. I guess four would be. I'm going to go to Vegas with Anne and another couple. I'll probably check out the Pinball Hall of Fame. But I don't know if they're going to happen. I would imagine they would happen. One big thing is the IFPA is now endorsing events. Unfortunately for Pinfest and fortunately for Brisbane Masters, which are on this weekend, They don't get that kind of juicy whopperitis, but the other ones will. And we're starting to see a bunch of tournaments booked. You said you're getting more into the tournament side there, Joe. I wonder if that's a factor for PinFest. And I wonder what tournaments you're looking forward to now that the IFPA is back. So, yeah, so PinFest is typically, and I think even last year was supposed to be one of the majors for IFPA. It's part of the Stern Pro Circuit. It's not technically a major, but it's certainly one of the big 20 that account for that Stern Pro Circuit. Yeah. So this year, obviously, with the IFPA not being involved, the one who usually runs that tournament is Corey Holson and company. And they opted out of doing it for this year because I think two reasons. I think, number one, they weren't necessarily ready for it because they didn't know if the show was going to go on. And then secondly is that the IFPA is not sanctioning events until August 1st. And I can't remember the initials for this new group. You may know who I'm talking about, but essentially I call them the UFC, this new little federation that's come up. They're supposed to be running a tournament there, and I have not really delved into any of the details of it because I just wasn't interested based on – not because I'm a whopper chaser because I suck, but just because it's not the same as it's always been. Getting in the tournaments is now probably three years old, four years old for me here. From the state of Delaware's perspective, we have been running tournaments, obviously not sanctioned, since June of last year, and they've all been at my house. We knocked down the numbers. Everyone had to wear masks. And we now have started to change the locations between the three people's houses that we're always running them at. And the first IFPA-sanctioned tournament in Delaware will be here at my house on August the 7th. It's a double event. We're actually doing a flip frenzy in the morning. and a match play tournament in the afternoon into early evening, however long it runs. So we're going to get double the Whoppers on that day. So what's happening with the collective? Oh, the collective. So the collective is still a real thing. We are just still looking for a location. We thought we had the location right before the Fourth of July holiday here in the U.S. We had a verbal from the landlord that our offer was accepted, our financials were accepted. And that we would have the lease in seven to 10 days. On day 14, we said, hey, where's the lease? And they said, oh, sorry, we rented it to somebody else who wanted the top and the bottom floor. And we were like, oh, well, fucking thanks. You didn't even tell us it was somebody else. And you didn't tell us anything else. We had to ask you. So we are now back on the hunt again for a location. We looked at something yesterday. We looked at another location, not exactly the best spot because it's the second floor of a building. So, you know, bringing 50 pinball machines up a flight of stairs is never a fun thing, but it does have big possibilities. It's 4000 square feet with a garage for storage and working on games. We're now in the midst of having discussions with that landlord about the space and the timing and everything that comes to it. So we were hoping to be running tournaments out of the collective in July or August. that obviously now is not going to happen. So now we're hoping for September or October. So the collective is a real thing. It is happening. It's just a matter of when and where. Yeah, no, I was just asking because you were saying that that tournament was at your home. And I thought, hang on, I thought that would have been at the collective by now. So that's why I was asking. You and me both. I thought I was done with tournaments. I mean, listen, I love having everyone here. You know, my wife is very accommodating to having before the unnamed event that happened a year and a half ago, having, you know, 50 people here on a Saturday all day and people parking all over the streets and my neighbors hated me for a day or whatever it's very stressful i mean you know you guys each know from running a tournament yourself that playing in a tournament and quasi running it you know you might as well just not even play because no no no piece of cake it's easy trust me honestly well maybe in another country but here yeah it's even harder winning your own tournament no piece of cake are we are we past that date or How long was that? No, no, no. It's forever. It's not a duration. It's forever. I can mention it. All right, good.
    29:04
    So, yeah, it becomes stressful. And even just a matter of, you know, putting the food out and having people, you know, making sure they have enough drink and food and whatever else and then trying to play. And then, oh, there's a stuck ball. And, oh, this flipper stopped working. And, you know, I mean, you guys know. So I was hoping that was over here just for the lack of stress. But I will always open my home to this community as long as I need to and as many times as I need to. So August 7th will be the, as we're calling it, the double whopper tournament here. So it is full and it's got a waiting list. We did up it from we were downgrading to everything to 24, no more than 24 people. We weren't allowing more than 16 people in the basement at one time. Masks fully, everyone needed to be fully masked up and sanitizer coming in and out and taking every precaution. And we've done that every month since June. June, July, August, every month, no issues. Everyone had a great time. We now started opening it to the normal, what my capacity would be for me to not have a heart attack at 48 or 50 people. So we'll see how it goes in a couple weeks. What a guy. That's why he's the reach-around winner for top fan here. Joe Fox inviting a bunch of pinball dregs to his home to grease up his LE machines, eat his food, leave a couple upper deckers, those kind of things. I mean, not everyone is like you, Joe, to allow that many people. I have people at my house. I'm not ready yet. And with the IFP opening, I've seen a few events. And some of the events, I'm putting this out there, are saying you need to be fully vaxxed to attend. And as Josh Sharp has said, any host can do whatever they want to make them feel comfortable. So you said people had to wear masks, not a problem. I think that's just where we're going to be for the next little while anyway, especially with the other variants and this Ianitis going on that's, you know, this global pandemic. What we did, I mean, we took Josh's advice even before the Whoppers are coming back. In Delaware, for example, the state that I live in, there was a mandate for masks in social gatherings and that kind of stuff. We followed the state rules. So the Friday before Memorial Day here in the U.S., the governor of Delaware dropped the mask mandate and increased the social gathering numbers. And we went accordingly to the state regulations. So as of the May tournament that was here was our last mask required tournament. People are still encouraged to do whatever they feel the most comfortable with. But I can tell you that whether you want to take this as a good sign or a bad sign, everything since June and July, which happened last or two weekends ago, nobody has worn a mask. But the U.S. has obviously higher numbers than you guys have, I think, of actual vaccinations. We didn't require proof of any vaccinations. We basically put it out there that said, hey, this is a mask optional event. Either if you don't want to attend because you feel unsafe, then by all means, we'll see you next time. If you do want to attend and you want to wear a mask, then by all means, wear a mask, but it will not be required and vaccination proof will not be required. Interesting as we get back to playing pinball in public and a lot of places are certainly more advanced, but I'm bummed to hear about your collective being on hold a little bit. That's some kind of bad July 4th news, but there was some good July 4th news in your country. I watched the hot dog eating contest. Joe, can you explain for those like me in Canada, like Marty in Australia, what the hell happens every July 4th? This is me trying to figure out what's going on. You have to see how many hot dogs you can shove in your face in a quick amount of time and this happens every July 4th and candidly we call it a Tuesday but you do this once a year what the hell is going on with that contest as far as uh if people think the pinball hobby is an oddity competitive eating is another uh hobby that I guess is a is another odd thing to to some but every fourth of July in I think it's in New York at Coney Island maybe Nathan's who's a old time hot dog manufacturer or butcher whatever you want to call him sponsors a hot dog eating contest and all these big-time competitive eaters get together on the 4th of July, I guess based on the barbecue scenario and hot dogs, and they try to throw down as many hot dogs as they can, and it's hot dog and bun. It's not just hot dogs that they have to eat. And the same guy who, I don't know if that's his real name, but calls himself Joey Chestnut has won it like, I don't know, six years in a row now, and I think he just set his own world record of like 79 hot dogs or 76, some crazy number of hot dogs that he ate. Whatever happened to Kobayashi? Yeah, so him and Kobayashi were like back and forth year after year. And they do this with chicken wings, and they do this with pizza, and they do this with all kinds of different food items. But Kobayashi, I haven't even heard his name spoken in years. So, again, this is done at Coney Island. How soon is this going to be done in the ICU?
    34:00
    I have no idea. Do they have anything like this, Marty, in Australia? Probably. I know this may surprise both of you to know that if they do, it's not something that would be in my world. What? No, no, no, no. It's a shocker. Wow. Yeah. I mean, we have chili eating competitions.
    34:24
    They probably should be. Yeah. It's really, I've got to tell you, it's a side note, because I've been communicating with a lot of the Haggis customers. So many people are requesting that I put Australian food items in their machines when we send them over. Just thought I'd let you know. Isn't that against the law? Yes. So I probably won't be. But who cares? But you know what? I think if we do manage to get to a pinball show in the U.S., which we're absolutely planning to do, we've just got to be able to be allowed out of the country. I think when you see the haggis stand at any of these shows, on the left-hand side, you'll see pinball machines. On the right-hand side, it'll just be a stack of Aussie foods.
    35:12
    Vegemite and Tim Tams. What are Aussie foods? Well, Vegemite, but yeah, I know people don't like Vegemite. Someone was telling me, I think it's violet crumble. Do you guys have violet crumble? Do explain. Do you have a crunchy? We have a lot of things that are crunchy. Honeycomb wrapped in chocolate. honeycomb like a like true honeycomb out of a beehive no like it's a honeycomb cookie kind of thing yeah so apparently yeah so violet crumble apparently is is one of those things that someone's requested so i i promised them i would bring some violet crumble over with me okay how about this then all right so we learned a little bit about july 4th and we don't understand why people are shoving their faces with hot dogs what is happening right now and it's supposed to happen every four years. Ianitis pushed it back a year. The Olympics in Tokyo. And normally I'm excited. I mean, maybe you have been, Marty. It was in Sydney not too long ago. It's been in the States several times. I've been to the Olympics in Calgary. It was obviously in Montreal and Vancouver. Normally it's a big deal. In fact, I have a relative who is on Team Canada. But this year, does anybody care in your countries? For me personally, I love the Olympics. I love the Olympics for two reasons and two reasons only. Opening ceremony, closing ceremony.
    36:35
    Anything that happens in between, I never watch. Don't care. Although I will tell you I prefer to watch the events in the Winter Olympics than I do in the Summer Olympics. Do you know why? Because the first half of the Olympics is all about swimming. And I don't know whether that's the same in every other country but because i think australia does well in swimming it's all about the fucking swimming and swimming is fucking boring to watch i gotta tell you oh there go our swimmer listeners there they go there they go hold on a second i gotta get a new sponsor we had speedo this week thanks marty fucking idiot but that's i said that's me personally i think that the olympics is a big deal i just feel that people didn't think it was going to be going ahead this year so there was no anticipation or excitement for it so i as well adore the olympics and it's not because of the sermon in fact those are the two reasons i wouldn't watch although i do but i do enjoy all the sporting events things that you don't see on an everyday basis even though a lot of them are common things whether it be basketball or you know ice hockey in the winter but i do enjoy the track and field and i do enjoy the swimming and you know all those things i honestly i think it all took such a second chair to what was going on in the world that I forgot that it was really even happening. I think my son mentioned it to me last night or somehow it came up in conversation I went oh holy shit that soon isn it Like it July And honestly until you just said it Jeff that it got delayed a year I completely forgot that it was even supposed to be last year I'm thinking this is just the way that it was supposed to go, and it's actually happening. So, I mean, yeah, it's always even years, and this is 2021, so obviously it's a year delayed. But I'll still watch. I'll still be excited to watch. But, yeah, I completely was off my calendar, off my map coming up until last night. I'm sorry to bring up the Olympics. I know this is a pinball show, so let's go to pin side right now and pick some hot topics, okay? So we can talk pinball again, okay? Oh, this is actually a hot topic on the forum. I'm not making this up. So I want you, without reading what's going on here, just to give me your thoughts on this. This is the title of the thread, Mom Leaving Dad at 60. I saw this yesterday.
    38:48
    By the way, we're laughing at somebody's broken family. Go on, Joe. Listen, I'm sorry. First of all, my first thought was, why are you discussing this on Pinside, Mr. Poster? If you read the story, it's essentially that the mother is tired of the father and she's leaving him. And it doesn't matter that she's 60 or 35 that she's leaving. It's an old flame. Yeah, for an old flame. Correct. It's somebody that she's been speaking to on and off for years. And, you know, at first I laughed. And the same reaction you just had is, oh, this is somebody's broken home. But my last reaction is, why the fuck are you putting this on Pinside? Well, Joe and Marty, maybe you two don't know about this. It's called Silver Divorce, and it's a real thing. So I think Pinside, thank goodness, is bringing it to the masses.
    39:35
    So is that because of the AIDS, Silver Divorce? Yes. You guys should be sensitive to this. You're both over 50. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Hold on a second here. Hey, and only one of us is gray.
    39:47
    Not me. My red hair, my long red hair is covering the grays. Yeah. That red hair's changed over the years. Your long dyed red hair. It's not dyed. Not dyed. Hold on a second. Hey, Marty, I've never dyed my hair. Have you ever dyed your hair? Oh, I don't know, beard or anything like that? Oh, yeah. Was there some shoe polish missing? Yeah, I dyed my hair for years. For years. What? Because I was a... this is probably going even further embarrassing than I thought it was. And I'm like, yeah, I'll answer your question. I don't give a shit. And now I'm like, oh, yeah, that goth phase I went through, I probably shouldn't bring that up where I dyed my hair black for years. But anyway, it's out there now. All right. Finger nails to match. Eyeliner? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, sure. No, I said fingernails, but eyeliner is acceptable.
    40:40
    By the way, this now trending on Pinside, Marty Scott phase. It's a hot one. I can actually picture it. Yeah, it's true. I used to have hair like Robert Smith. Picture that. Robert Smith? From The Cure. We need pictures. Yeah. You will never, ever, ever get them. Ever. I know some people. Never say never. Yeah, I would. Okay. Although. My Australian friends, Mr. Silby, Mr. Damien, you can come through with this, James, Stuart, guys, bring it home, all right? We need to see it. I'd like some of your million-dollar income for this show to buying these pictures. Yeah, but then I'd give a shit, so that's probably not going to happen.
    41:32
    Speaking of million dollars, you, and we said this earlier, you used to buy LEs sight unseen. I'm still trying to figure out even though I'm guilty of it because of the one I bought all these people that buy sight unseen. I mean it's one thing if it's a dream theme. Okay you got the theme alright I'm in on that. Sure.
    41:54
    But no gameplay no play field anything like that and Marty when people bought Fathom and that sold out you knew what Fathom looked like. Yeah for sure. I'm not including Fathom. I'm just talking about not seeing any video not having any idea about the call-outs, all that kind of stuff? Iron Maiden. When I put my deposit down for an Iron Maiden, I had not seen a single picture. Yep. Good. A lot of people are doing that. Now, that was a theme you liked. Zeppelin was a theme I liked. I assume Mando was the same for you or any of the other LEs you bought, Joe. Stern is a theme that Joe likes. Yes, Stern. I was going to say Stern. Pinball is a theme I like.
    42:32
    But you have said you're not doing that anymore. These machines sell instantly. Congratulations in all sincerity. Just like we said for Haggis with Fathom, I'm so happy that the Emery family has done well in Spooky Pinball and they sold 1750 of the Halloween and Ultraman. I think that's great, but it just blows my mind that these are selling without anybody seeing how they work. Anything about it, any kind of assets. So in the beginning, five-plus years ago when I got into this hobby, I didn't even know what the hell an LE was. I did my research, blah, blah, blah. You come up to it. I'm blessed enough to be financially stable enough to be able to afford these games. But I also realized that if I didn't like it or if it didn't work well or or if, if, if, if, if that I could turn around and I still had an asset. Right. I had something that I could sell up until I can't even count the machine. I want to say turtles maybe, but that turned south quickly because of the issues they had with the diverter falling apart. I never made money on either flipping, reselling, whatever you want to call it, on LEs. And it was just part of the thought process I had that said, you know what, if I went to a location at a dollar a play or two plays for three, whatever, three plays for two dollars, and I played it 500 times, whatever money I lose would be the same as me going to a location and putting the physical money out of my pocket. And then this thing happened, and it started to be that every game was turning into profit even at two years old. People messaging me, asking me for my Attack from Mars remake LE and paying more than I paid when I bought it new in the box X amount of years ago. And Turtles selling right off the cuff at $10,000, $11,000 new in box without even opening it. And these things just started happening. And at the same time, I'm going, well, you know what? The pro is just as serviceable, too. And I can take the money. And for every LE I sell, I can almost buy two pros with it. And I went down this line. Mandalorian was actually, when that theme was rumored, I thought, God, this is so stupid. This show hasn't even been on for two years. Who's buying this game? And then it went bonkers. And people were selling spots for $13,000 before the game was even, like, it just went crazy. And I bought the Bando LE with the intention of flipping it. And I don't look at myself as some kind of bottom dweller because I lost so much money over the years on Black Knight LEs and Ghostbusters LE in the beginning. And I can't even think of all the LEs that have happened that I've lost money on every single one. And I said, listen, I'm just trying to recoup some of my losses here. But at the end of the day, I still would believe that, first of all, I think any pinball machine is fun for a certain amount of time and it's still an asset. So buying a game sight unseen and turning around and selling it with 20 plays or 40 plays or 60 plays, I don't think is the end of the world unless you cannot afford to, in which case you shouldn't be buying any of them. And just go to your location and put the $20 in a week or whatever it is you can afford. It's a balance. And one week I'd say on one show that I'm never buying another LE again and then here I am with a Mando LE down in my basement. And, you know, it's just because it's a matter of the way the wind blows on how I feel and what the market is. And there's a lot of different things that come into it. Marty, I wonder if a bad experience changes things for people. Maybe you bought a machine, maybe you wanted to flip it down the road and you got burned on it. Monsters, what? You said it. I didn't want to say it. Yep. Did that change things at all for you, Marty? I think I bought two LEs after that. Does that answer that question? Okay. So, Marty, let me ask you this. You bought two LEs after Munsters. Yep. Even though you had theoretically been burned on Munsters, which I was as well, too. I didn't get the LE, but still lost money on the Pro and the Premium. Yep. Which is my bigger problem that I keep buying GameStream four times. But what made you say, I don't care that Munsters was a loss. I'm still going to go buy Jurassic Park. Well, I forget the progression, but whatever the next LE was. Oh, because I got shitloads of money. Okay. Well, I had. I had until I stopped working for 18 months. But back then, I justified it by going, but you know what? I'm just not one of these kinds of people that will just live with regret. I just move on from that kind of stuff. I think I was down by about two grand, but I had played the hell out of it, played the hell out of it. And I don't know whether you could do the math that says, well, if that was on location and I played 500 plays and that's $2 a game, that's $1,000 or $1,000 of that. It's not even that. It was fun. I enjoyed it. I got sick of it. It was unfortunate that I lost money on it. Although, had I kept it, they're actually going for good money now. Yeah, they're coming for more now than they did then. It's insane. It's crazy. But that's what happened. I mean, I lost money on my Hobbit. Oh, my God, my Hobbit. My Hobbit, I was down three and a half grand on. So it happens. When I think of when I first bought a machine, I never, ever thought about, hmm, how much can I resell this for? And that's where the hobby has now shifted a little bit, not for everyone, But I think for the LE owners, that certainly comes to mind. The only way I ever think of that, Jeff, is just in a matter of I'm buying it sight unseen. Am I going to lose my shorts? Period. End of story. I don't look at it saying, well, if I open it now, I can still sell for 92 plus five. I don't do that math. I go, am I going to get really hurt by this? I don't think so. Okay, open the box. Yep, I'm the same. and you know for a lot of people losing two to three grand on a machine is losing their shorts at the time for me it wasn't well that's only like 30 in the u.s anyway yeah correct it's fuck all over there that's correct no i listen i i bought black knight new in the box le and i remember trying to basically beg for somebody to buy that for 6500 when it was 8900 street price or whatever it was, I don't remember, $9,000 US and begging somebody to pay me $6,500 for it. That's a $2,500 US loss. Did I cry over it? No, my God, that sucks. I would have thought I got more. But to me, it wasn't necessarily losing $2,500 as it was bringing $6,500 back in to go buy something else. Yeah. Actually, funny you said that because I did actually put myself down for a black night before I saw any pictures or footage. And as soon as I saw the pictures, I went, no, I'm out. Yeah, I look at titles when they're rumored, and I go, yep, I'm not buying that. And I have a little text chat with a buddy of mine. I don't know, Jeff, if you know, but Marty, you remember Robert Mooney, who- I know Robert. He's an old profile. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. You guys did, right. So every time we text each other back and forth, I go, oh, yeah, you know, X, Y, and Z is not a theme I'm interested in. I'm never going to buy that. Oh, Iron Maiden, who the hell even knows who Iron Maiden is? And then I go, oh, I just ordered my Iron Maiden. Let me snap the picture from the text chat where you said you're not buying an Iron Maiden guaranteed. And I'm like, yeah, don't bother. I already know I said it. It's the same time over and over, and we send each other back these messages. Mando for me, Mandalorian, I'm like, yeah, I'm not interested. It's not Star Wars, and if it's a Star Wars property, it's not going to be that great like it was for Star Wars. And here I am with the same thing because I love pinball. That's really what it is. I love pinball. Led Zeppelin was nothing for me. Jeff, I know you were super over the moon. I'm just like, eh, yeah, no, at least one more game I don't have to worry about buying. And the rumored Godzilla next for me is nothing that, to me, interests me. So you're already down for the late game. If I know I'll have one, you know, like just because it'll happen, and I'll be bored or whatever. Yeah, fair enough. Well, we'll have to see if it shows up at the future collective. I hope it happens. We have seen collectives around the country, Richmond Pinball Collective. We've seen what Bruce has done and his group there in Rochester. I'm looking forward to going there for their, I think they've got a stomp tournament coming up September 25th. A little plug for our good friends in Rochester. That being said, are you going to be looking at tournaments at your collective? Because we all have to compete with District 82. My goodness, the home of Whoppers. Yeah, they've really become they've really been a thing to come onto the map all of a sudden where you didn't hear about them a year and a half ago or two years ago. And now that's all you see on Facebook is Distributed 2 and Distributed 2. So, first of all, you pre-mentioned Richmond and Rochester and both of those, Bruce and Laura and Clark Fraley in their respective places, have been huge helps to us here in Delaware to get our pinball collective up and running and just learning from their horror stories and their good sides. of things and just picking their brains nonstop. Since honestly, I started talking to Clark in Texas the last time Texas was around, which I guess is now 2019 and is just going on and on and on. And they've been absolutely overwhelmingly helpful.
    52:06
    You know, Bruce and I were on the phone for one day for like an hour and five minutes or something talking about, you know, his trials and tribulations of getting that started. So they have been great helps to us here in learning and not making some of the mistakes they made and echoing off the good things that they've done. So we are absolutely going to be running tournaments there. We'll be running weekly leagues on Tuesday nights, which we're still doing now out of people's homes, monthly tournaments, if not bi-monthly tournaments. So absolutely, it'll be something to look forward to if you're in this Philadelphia, New Jersey, Delaware area. Joel, we appreciate you coming on, sharing some of your collecting habits, your opinions on the market, how you feel about divorce at 60.
    52:53
    We will catch you again on this program. We'd love to have you back. And again, thank you for all your support for Final Round. Thank you both for having me again. And I look forward to coming back again soon. That'd be awesome. By the way, shove that reach around in front of Rodney every time you see him, will you? Hey, that thing is still sitting in that lit cabinet at the top like I sent you the pictures of months ago when it came. So that was good friend of the show, Joseph Fox. What did we learn, Jeff? Well, since it was Joe Fox, it's obvious that we are the only podcast that didn't have spooky pinball on their show. So thank you, Joe.
    53:30
    Appreciate that little variety here on Final Round. It's true. That is actually quite funny. We didn't get the exclusive. so whoa whoa wait a second we had charlie exclusive joe fox yeah with the exclusive joe fox and we had charlie on a couple months ago and he told us that there were a few features in there so we basically could figure out what the game was once he told us those little nuggets we knew it was going to be halloween we also knew it was going to be ultraman we just didn't want to say anything you're welcome spooky yeah that's right i mean all these people that are like just desperate to leak this information we don't and i mean you could tell by the previous episode that we knew exactly what it was because we mentioned halloween many times seamlessly in that conversation we did that's right and the video hadn't even come out i mean that was it was tight yeah i mean i think it probably surprised tom too but you know that's just how far ahead we are not around and we were exhausted too we had to take an extra week off my goodness we'll talk about what happened in those weeks but first we're a week behind we gotta get paid we do here is our sponsor of the week congratulations to spooky pinball for their recent sellouts of halloween and ultraman same with haggis pinball with fathom revisited well done to stone pinball for moving all of their mandalorian le's but what do all of these machines have in common they sold out before you ever saw the games being flipped the demand for pinball is real so what's the next machine Well, you won't want to miss this one. Don't wait for minor things like details or visuals to delay your purchase. If you don't buy right away, you'll be out of luck. Here at the Final Round Pinball Podcast, we are about to reveal the next title. No other podcast or news service has these specific details, and we are now going to share them with you. Get your credit cards ready, have your distributors on speed dial, because here is the next machine. Are you ready to buy? Okay, the next machine is... from...
    55:39
    Can you believe it? It's the license everyone has been waiting for. Did we mention the designer? Oh, how about none other than... I know, right? And who's doing the code? Holy shit, it's... Add to the fact that the artist is... It's the perfect storm. But you have to buy right now. These are going to sell out immediately. Pick from three models. The standard, no frills, build-it-yourself, code-to-come-later model. The collector's, same shit, different pile model. Or the top-of-the-line, our-family-doesn't-need-to-eat model. If you're still listening to this commercial, and you haven't placed your order for... You might have already missed out. So go ahead, collectors. Get your machines based on title alone. Then sell them for more than you paid, and keep driving up the prices. good for you there's only one more question what's the next title three weeks marty do you know the pinball world has been just absolutely shitting where is final round we're back and not only are we back this week we're going to come back next week to get back on track you're welcome again yeah two is really funny is that And I mean this sincerely I really don think people give a crap about whether we release a podcast or not But I am now mistaken because I had so many people reach out going where this episode Really? Okay. Maybe some people do care. Okay. Maybe Australians care. Maybe people over there don't. I did get a few emails as well, but luckily we kind of said we're going to be off. It wasn't like the show just wasn't there. We gave people heads up that we needed a week off. How are we busy, for God's sakes? I haven't done anything but grow hair and sit on my ass in my house and go absolutely nowhere.
    57:30
    You, I get it. You've been busy. You were, look, I'm going to say it, all right? I should probably say this off air, but I'm going to say it on air. You were a lot more fun when you were unemployed and I could just call you at any time.
    57:42
    Now that you're busy and working, I'm like, where's my Marty? Do you know what? It actually is really weird. I mean, I was unemployed, let's call it. Because that's really what it was. And we could talk whenever we wanted. And I just still remember those days where I was getting up at midday and, look, literally just playing PlayStation until three or four o'clock in the morning. It was good times. And we could talk whenever we wanted. And it was like, let's do a podcast. Yeah, great. Now, I mean, let's behind the curtain. We record usually on the weekend. This is now Tuesday night, my time. So Monday sometime, I think, for you? It is. Okay, so if I sound a little... It's Tuesday morning. If I sound a little dopey right now... Well, we'll probably notice. We record the interview at one point, and that, again, was done Friday night, I think 9 o'clock my time. Would you say 11 o'clock your time on Saturday? Yeah, probably. Something like that. Maybe a little earlier, a couple hours early. But the point is... No, 9 o'clock, because I was at work. Yes, yes. So right now, I'm looking at my clock. It is July 20th, 4.55 a.m. my time. Because this is the only time you and I can record because you're putting in 10, 11, 12-hour days. Who says that? I'm not working. How dare you? I didn't say you were working. That's a lot of solitaire and mind sweeper. I'm a hard worker. Yeah.
    59:09
    Yes, it is. And how dare they take Space Cadet out of windows? I know. That's just ridiculous. I know. Whatever. of it. Hey, let's just talk about your hair for a second for two reasons. First of all, I did see a recent picture that you sent me and it is almost down to your crack. It is that long. Now, but besides that, I was talking to Greg Silby yesterday and he sort of turned and walked away and I went, Greg Silby, what's happening to your hair? How is it so long? And we've decided that he is now hashtag standing with teolis attaboy greg mullet to take it over that's right it's not at first of all it's not a fucking mullet how many times no it's not that good can i just tell you here you know what i don't need to do a facebook poll these are hard facts okay you can draw a diagram of who likes it and who doesn't like it and let me just tell you who likes the hair long the ladies the dudes are like oh you got to cut that hair and you know why i'm thinking because they're fucking jealous all right maybe they're balding who knows whatever it is they don't have the ginger locks i don't know i also don't care i know i got it i'm flaunting it i forgot how old i am and uh it's staying for a little while or i actually have an appointment on August 13th. Ooh, will I get it cut off? Also, you know what? It's not going to be that much longer that you're going to be able to call them ginger locks. I'm just saying. No, that's where you're so mistaken. And that's why I like it a little long because the real massive, it's not even gray. Like above my ears, it is white, absolutely white, but only in those patches. And it's all hidden now. Tons of gray in my goatee. I'll give you that. Like I fell into a bowl of milk, But I'm telling you this. Milk? Mm-hmm.
    61:06
    What were you thinking? Yeah, go away. Anyway. It's 5 in the morning here, all right? Anyway, we'll see. August 13th. I've had some people say, don't do it. So we'll have to see. And my wife is one of them. By the way, that's the biggest thing. The two people that probably matter the most, my wife, number one. Sorry, you're not even number two, Marty. But number two. I'm your work wife, your podcast wife, and I don't like it. But you're over there, right? If I was coming to Australia, then maybe. But my boss, I don't think is a fan. So that's the real, like, I mean, think of the scales. Which one do I do?
    61:45
    I've got a PlayStation. Maybe I can be unemployed for a year and just fart around on that for a while. We'll see. Oh, God, it was the best time. Like, some people would argue and say, oh, that was a waste of a year. It really wasn't. I would have completed, like got to the end of over a dozen games easy. You know why it wasn't a waste of a year? It's because of the job you left, the mental stress that so many people in the work industry have, not just yourself, but so many people go through that, and you needed the downtime. You needed to reset, and look how you came out on top, and now you've got this wonderful job, and you're going to be making a lot of people happy. Well, I mean, that's the thing that, you know, we do joke about it. But the thing that probably people don't know is that whilst I was unemployed, I wasn't doing nothing. I was very busy working on what I'm doing now. People just didn't know that. I don't know whether I've mentioned that before because a lot of people were saying, oh, have you got a job yet? And I'm like, oh, no, but I'm still looking. Oh, I'm going for an interview. And, oh, you know, the market's hard. and, oh, damn that COVID, I was spending most of the day, you know, 12, 15 hours a day getting ready for what I'm doing now. Yeah. Well, I knew that. I wasn't allowed to say anything. I know you knew that.
    63:08
    I know you knew that. You were the only one that knew that. So, here you go. Well, obviously, Haggis knew it, but yeah. Does that mean I have to share my secrets with you? Yes, please. It's a wig. Yeah.
    63:21
    The thing of it is, no one's buying it, and no, no wig looks that crap. It's good stuff. Okay, let's talk some pinball. We don't have to. By the way, we do this podcast, in case people are wondering. It's amazing anyone listens to it. It's funny that TPN thinks we're doing this to be competitive pinball and get listers and stuff. The truth is, we just do it to talk to each other. We just happen to record it, and we've monetized it. Let's be honest, all right? We're cashing in on the sponsors. Yeah, we are rolling in it. so we didn't have the spooky guys on but let's let's talk a little bit about that Ultraman and Halloween love the Halloween theme I love that Ultraman certainly has a fan base love that they sold out I think it's great I didn't know anything about Ultraman and I think I I could say I saw it on TV once in a while but didn't know what it was I've since gone back and try to see what it's all about great for spooky that's awesome but it makes me wonder boy if they can do Ultraman, there are so many licenses out there that everyone thinks, oh, the Harry Potters, Led Zeppelin finally was made, and what's going to be next? Whether it be Godzilla or this and that, there's tons. If they can do Ultraman and sell that out, lots out there. True. So I'm like you. I mean, obviously, we knew for a long time because Charlie gave us the clues. We knew. But let's just say we didn't know, and when it was revealed, it was announced that it was Ultraman as well. I had never heard of Ultraman, ever, at all. Brand new to me. And when I looked at the machine side by side, Ultraman is the one that I would have gotten. Based on what? Based on the fact that, firstly, I'm not a big horror theme. I don't even know whether I've seen Halloween. Like, it came out so long ago, I may have watched it, but I just don't remember watching it. I like the art on Ultraman and I like that it's a bit more of a fun theme, I guess. Yeah. I think they're both winners. I certainly was the other way around. Definitely knew Halloween and kind of the beginning of the slasher films. Such an interesting story too. So low budget, but really just, I'm not going to say like Hitchcock, you know, just but It kind of kick-started the genre, didn't it? Really? Like the schlock horror. You know, the jump scares, they call them and stuff. You know, you're like, okay, what's going to happen? What's going to happen? Ah, you got me. You know, that kind of stuff. Yeah, I absolutely hate horror films. Hate them. And I've tried to explain it. It's because you know that feeling of terror that you get? Like when you're into the film, some people sort of like laugh at that stuff because they never really get immersed in the film. But if you're immersed in the film and it's scary, that feeling of terror, for me, that's not an enjoyable experience. And I know horror fans love that. Like, that terror is the appeal. For me, absolutely not. Hate them. Hate horror films. I'm just as scaredy-cat as you are because I – I never said scaredy-cat. What? Well – Okay, keep going. I'll watch a horror movie and I'll kind of squint my eyes and then just hear the scream and then I can open it up because I don't want that – I'm afraid my heart will stop if I'm being quite honest.
    66:35
    I'm not even trying to be funny. I know the feeling. Oh, when I get scared, I don't like it. It's not cool, and you shouldn't do it to people that are worried about something like, oh, I don't know, dropping dead. So what I do is if something I know is going to either be scary or gory, I close my eyes, and then I put my fingers in my ear, and then close them and open them quickly so I can't even hear the sound. It's a hell of a way to watch a movie. Wow. why am I there in the first place is probably what you're asking I don't know why would somebody suggest that we go to a movie and it turns out that it's a horror film anyway that's what happened scarred for life what is your favourite horror movie Jeff the scariest horror movie to me still is the exorcist nothing will yes yeah absolutely the music and everything and that's another thing about Halloween great music too it's funny that John Carpenter very basic music have you ever seen the movie Escape from New York. In fact, this week was the 40th anniversary of it. I had never seen that movie, and I knew it was a John Carpenter. I knew Snake was the main character. I really didn't know what the story was about, so I watched it, and it gave me that very Halloween feel. Donald Pleasance is in it. In fact, I think Jamie Lee Curtis is the narrator. And, you know, it's a bit of a horror movie in a way, but I enjoyed it, and very similar John Carpenter music, so I've heard people say that would be a great theme. I think it would, after seeing the movie okay no i i don't know whether i've seen that again so old i'm really old and my memory is just going rapidly oh i can't remember what you said two sentences ago yeah i'm right there with you i don't even know who you are so let alone who i am it's easier with visuals and name tags we were so much better but here's here's something i have to bring up to you so i was saying that anything could be a theme or that there are more themes out there. Well, you know how much I love the boys. The TV show in season three is in production right now. They're filming in Toronto. I got to tell you, one of my favorite characters, spoiler alert, in season two, he was only on one episode. I know. It was too. I'll let you say it. Look, I honestly can't remember, but it was love pump or love gun or love something. Love sausage. That's the one. I knew it. I was right. You were right. And we don't have notes when we do this show. I mean, it's five in the morning. You think you're going to make notes? I'm barely awake. Yeah. Love sausage. Hilarious. Well, could the boys be a pinball machine? Maybe. You couldn't really do love sausage as a game. No. But there is something better than love sausage. And God bless John Oliver for introducing me to what people in Denmark know all about. Have you heard of John Dillermand? No. I want to get your reaction right now. I would like you to Google the word John and Dillerman. D-I-L-L-E-R-M-A-N-D. Okay, is it a cartoon? It is a claymation children's show in Denmark about a man. One second. Here we go. Denmark launches children's TV show about man with giant penis. Critics condemn idea of animated series about a man who cannot control his penis, but others have backed it. And it goes on to say, John Dillamond has an extraordinary penis. So extraordinary, in fact, that it can perform rescue operations, etch murals, hoist a flag, and even steal ice cream from children with his penis.
    70:15
    Why did we have Ryan C on this episode? He'd be all over this. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, my goodness. This is a real thing. It is a children's show. And I don't know if we're stuck up in North America. A little more freedom there in Denmark. Wow. I'm asking you to have a look at this. It's, again, claymation. There's no nudity. It's basically a red and white striped tube. It just happens to be coming out of his crotch. So it's not like, you know, flesh. It rescues people. He uses it as not a parachute, but he ties a bunch of balloons to it and rescues things. It's insane. It's pretty funny. And I'm waiting for that to be the next pinball machine. So who's going to do it? Come on, Spooky. You can do it. Damien. I'll have a chat with Damien and see if he wants to have that as... Oh, my goodness.
    71:05
    Funny. So, but speaking of Harry Potter... Yes? Can I have my angry moment right now? I'm going to have my angry moment. I expected the entire podcast. Why did you save it until just now?
    71:17
    Just, I don't know. I think there was maybe six or seven episodes ago you were like, I'm going to have an angry episode. I was really not angry at all, if you remember. So I got a message today from Ticketmaster. I think it's the same sort of thing you guys have where you get your tickets. And I'm going to dedicate this message that I'm going to read out to Ian. Hi, Ian. We regret that due to the lockdown extension, your Harry Potter and the Cursed Child tickets will now be cancelled. Oh. And I'm going to tell you, this is the third time this has been cancelled. Third time. And it goes on to say, and if you want to buy tickets, the next available is February 2022. This sucks because I'm fine with postponements.
    72:09
    Cancellations are different. And if this show is still going on and it's just being postponed, your ticket should be for another date. And they've cancelled the tickets? Well, they did that twice. They did that twice. this is now the third time and they've just gone fuck it we're just gonna cancel it yeah that's crappy especially when they're putting the other and they're oh they're not putting the tickets on sale for a higher price now because of the demand maybe but also this was a birthday present to my son two years ago and he's really disappointed so anyway and was 15 at the time Now he's turning 17, so probably a bit too old for it now. Well, good news. I know it's big here in Canada. Maybe you've heard of something like Stars on Ice. It's a figure skating show. Yes, I do know of Stars on Ice. I see that the John Dillerman Stars on Ice tour is coming to Melbourne.
    73:02
    Just a thought. You don't want to be in the first 20 rows. Let me just put it that way. Oh, that actually split my side. Oh, that's funny you should say that because I got my son something a couple of years ago. My son, Carson, and I, we like to do road trips. And years, ever since he was really young, I would take him to a different NHL hockey arena. So different places all around North America. And he said to me, Dad, hockey arenas are pretty much the same. I'd like to go to different baseball stadiums, which is my favorite sport. And I was like, oh, really proud parent moment. so I gave him this trip it was supposed to be I think July of 2020 it was Detroit Cincinnati St. Louis I think it was four games and maybe Cleveland as well four or five games in a matter of a week that we were going to do a little road trip with your son and that didn't happen and still can't happen although although Marty today we have opened the border in Canada to allow Americans that are fully vaccinated to come on over. And that happens in a couple of weeks. So it's changing a little bit in September. They're going to allow the rest of the world, I guess, if they have recognized vaccines. So maybe. Fingers crossed. Fuck you, Delta variant. Yeah. Thanks, Ian. I blame Ian. I do blame Ian. Ian is patient zero. So that's what we're now going to do. He's the one who emailed us and said, I'm sick of hearing the pandemic talk. Well, no one. I'm sick. He's what he said. I'm sick. That's right. In brackets from the COVID virus, which I got from Wuhan. Mm-hmm. Thanks, Ian. It's all coming together, Ian. Yep. By the way, he offered to give us money.
    74:50
    He didn't just offer. I think he actually did give us money. He did. I haven't checked the emails. I should probably check. If we have any emails, I'm sorry. I haven't checked them. I'm not checking them right now. This is a short show. Oh, my God. You are so freaking glad to get it. Sorry that we're sounding like it's, you know, you should be so good. Honestly, it's been very difficult for us to get together, but it's been good. But I can promise you in one week's time, not two, one week's time, we will be back with a very, very special guest. And it's going to be a good show. A little bit longer, probably based on his one answer. But that's a bit of a giveaway. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So let's call it a day. Let me go to bed at 5.15 in the morning here and get up at 9. I know. Then we go and get dinner. Yep. All right. We're good for another week. Thanks very much. We will do this again. What is half a fortnight? I don't know. Someone did explain to me what fortnight meant the other day. I can't remember.
    75:51
    14 nights. There you go. We will see you in a sub-night. Yes. Thanks, everybody. See you soon. Bye. Thank you.