The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. This is episode 16 of the final round. My name is Jeff Teolis. My name is Martin Robbins. It's great to have you with us. Do you think everyone listening has heard all 16 episodes or is this... are we getting new people come in? Maybe, possibly. I would say we are. I hope we are. If we are, what do we say about us? How do we explain what the hell we do here? I'm asking for a friend because sometimes I don't know. So what do we do? Well, we are a pinball podcast. Stop me if I'm going too quickly. And we look at pinball through the lens of competitive play, but it's not all about competitive play. Makes sense to me. I'll listen. Oh, I guess I have to. Yeah. Marty, a little bit about you and I. Marty, longtime host of We do head-to-head pinball. I do this thing called Pinball Profile. You also do Melbourne Silverball streaming. And here we are joining forces all across the globe. We've got me in Canada, you in Australia, and our guest today comes from the United States. So we're trying to cover it all. We'll get to our guest in a little bit. But first, how has your last few weeks been, Marty? Well, probably the biggest highlight of the last two weeks was this awesome video that we We did because we often talk offline about how much we love reaction videos on YouTube. It's a bit of a trend at the moment, people listening to songs for the first time or trailers for the first time and we decided to do a reaction video. To the reaction videos, which I think is very meta, very cool and it was fun to do. Okay, a little behind the scenes, alright? You can see it on our Facebook page because we're huge about social media. I mean, since the last episode, we have doubled the number of Twitter listeners. Correct. That's a sidebar. We're also on Instagram at FinalRoundPin, I think. Bowl? Mm-hmm. FinalRoundPinBall. So now we're into videos. We created this reaction to the reactions. It was fun to do and I kind of said to you the night before doing it, hey, look, this would be a funny idea. It shouldn't take long, right? And you're like, yeah, well, not too bad. I'm like, look, five minutes tops. That's all we need to do. So, I think it ended up being 17 minutes which you were quite surprised about. What I think the listeners probably don't know is that it was 17 minutes of content. It was 5 hours of preparing and getting it set up. 5 hours we spent to do that 17 minutes. That is so nice of you to say we because I had nothing to do with it. I just thought, oh, turn on the mic. Like, what you saw was our first take. That's it. We just were like, I think we ended up maybe seven takes until we got that final one and... No, it was our one take. Yeah, okay. No, I'm being serious, wasn't it? I don't think we did. No. How many times did we start and have to stop because we either started laughing or we just stopped? There was that whole comment about Celine Dion and Canadian music. We had to take that out because it was completely unscripted. We were just having some fun, guys. We love reaction videos. We just thought we would do something funny because we're bored. My point is that's the first take we did start to finish. Yes, we may have cut and stopped a few times, but I mean, as far as okay, this one's the wrong. Here we go. Oh yeah. Once we actually started recording, there's no editing in that. That was from Woe2Go. As I said, we'd already spent five hours getting it ready. I wasn't going to do any more editing. Yeah, and by the way, some of the comments since then, you'll be happy to know that I have upgraded my webcam. So when we first started recording it, Marty says to me, he goes, what's with your webcam? It looks like shit. Well, you're technically right. This webcam I figured out was purchased in 2002. It had 1.3 pixel or something like that. And you're like, what? So thanks to Joe Cherovino, he gave me a good one on Amazon, grab that and Should we do another one? Oh, you'll see every blemish on my face. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Play count the freckles. After the amount of effort that went into it versus the return, I'm not rushing to do another one, if I'm really honest. Not... well, considering I really did do a lot of prep and then post, it was a lot of effort. Just for a bit of a sight gag. It was a bit of a gag, but we had fun doing it. Thank you Marty for all your efforts. I appreciate that. You know, there's been 16 shows where I've done hours and hours of editing. So you bitching about one video. Um, okay. All right. Fine. That's fine. Yeah, you know I do editing too. I know. Come on. All right. Fine. Anyway, it was, it was fun. Watch it. It's up on YouTube. It's on our Facebook page. It's hilarious. Well, we thought so anyway. Our family enjoyed it. So there. Correct. Absolutely. Anything else happen in the last couple of weeks? Well, do we want to talk about the fact that we were on another podcast? Yes, that's right. So we were on the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We're in a group chat with them. We do chat quite often and they were like, Hey, how about you come on and talk about Avengers because it's not, even though we are going to talk about Avengers Infinity Quest this episode, We're not really your deep dive review of a pinball type podcast, so it was kind of good to be able to do that on somebody else's podcast. That's what you and I said right as soon as we were done. We're like, oh good, we don't have to do it. They did it for us. Yes, so if you want to know what our thoughts are on Avengers, go and listen to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. And let's be honest, the reason they got us on, they're totally cashing in on our fame, alright? Alright, if you listened to Orbital Albert episode 390, he ranked the top 10 podcasts that he believes are out there. And quite a few from the Pinball Network made that and I guess we did too. Did we? I haven't listened to it yet. I saw it came up and I'm like, oh, do I listen to it? Surely we would not have made the list. If we did, we would be 9 or 10. I wasn't sure we would make it because of the nicheness of our show. We're a show within a show or a show within a network. But according to Albert, by the way, buddy, the checks in the mail, he considers us the number one podcast out there. So no wonder Loser Kid said, okay, we got to get Marty and Jeff on. It'll help us. Yes. Absolutely. Riding on our coattails. Well, there you go. That's really nice to hear. I personally don't think without knowing the other There's nine podcasts in the top ten. I don't personally think we're better than any of them. Agreed. But we just turn the mics on, hit record and shit comes out and whatever happens, happens. I know this and I can speak for Marty as well too. We're not out to be number one. We're not out to be everybody's favorite. We just want to do something for which we enjoy doing for ourselves first and foremost, and if people like it, great, awesome. But as we've said time and time again, please find the podcasts plural that you like, enjoy them, support them the same for the videos, the streams and all that kind of stuff. You don't have to like just one. One doesn't have to be the best support and enjoy them all. We do. Yep, absolutely. So what else has happened in your fortnight? Okay, my wife, Anna and I did something I didn't think would ever be considered in my lifetime. We took a zoom class to learn How to become pilots. Really? Honestly, this is the first you're hearing about it. So that's your reaction. Yeah. And has always wanted to do that. Her father flew for years and years and years, kind of a Cessna plane, you know, on the water and, and stuff at cottages and whatnot. So we have an airport really close to where we live. And, you know, there's a few planes for sale. And we were like, Hmm, is it practical? What can we do? We've got family that live far away, I guess, in that sense, it'd be kind of neat, certainly versus driving. And goes, you could fly to pinball tournaments. I'm like, hold on a second here. Now we're talking. So, we've kicked the tires at some flight schools and we have an orientation flight for each of us to see if this is what we want to do. So, yours truly might be, I'd like to be known as Captain Teolis from now on. Okay, here's a couple of things that come to mind straight away after hearing this for the first time. First of all, I would never, ever in my life get in a plane that you are flying. Okay? I'm just putting that out there. Right there, just wouldn't. Second of all, when you say you would fly a plane to a tournament, first of all, that is really fucking wanky. How'd you get Egypt? I flew a plane here. No, no, no, you're a wanker. Come on, that's way better. But second of all, think about how much it's going to cost you to hire a plane, then park it at an airport, take it... Hold on. It's going to be cheaper to just fly. We've already looked into that and my wife did it in comparison to the cost of pinball machines. I had nothing to say when she said that. But I'm comparing it to the cost of actually just getting on a plane, buying a ticket versus actually having to hire a plane, unless you're going to buy a plane as well. Fćr mudal pand worrying APNIC,ирЕ dyни Αfoс neural Hadi Pkân remnants competitor ل kriegen tenją millennials 2022cium Фr der How did we get there? I just I was well, I don't know it's a bit of a stretch You know you look at Avengers and there's all kinds of wire form. It makes you think of airborne airborne. Yes, I've got aviator glasses Doing missing is a plane and a pilot's license. So there you go. It's really cool It is I think that's that's kind of really cool. I mean it absolutely screams Lightlife classes because no no no no, that's the Corvette I'm buying Good on you. Well done. We'll see. I do know this. Whether I pursue it or whether Ann does, I would say Ann certainly has more interest because of the connection to doing it when she was younger with her father for years and years and years. Sure. Okay. I get that. I do see some practicality based on the location of where we live, a small airport, the surprisingly low cost of the plane, now that being said, gas and storage and all that other kind of stuff. C Bar laptinance, that's pricey, don't get me wrong. So, again, you know when we talk about buying pinball machines, oh we're coming back to pinball, thank God, you know when you buy a pinball machine, it retains the value, planes, unlike cars, also retain the value. So, let's say it's a hobby for a couple years. Yep, what it again, it's saying and we've said this before is that we just are earning So much money by doing this podcast that we're now looking at buying planes. That's what it's become. It's ridiculous. But anyway, you know, so if you want to start a podcast and try to cash in on the spots of the weeks, we've got most of the good ones. I'm sorry about that, but they just flock to us. But there might be some scraps out there. Anyway, good luck to you. Yes. Yes. And now our sponsor of the week is Boeing. I never thought about that. So shall we bring it back to pinball? And bring on our guest of the week. We apologize after 16 episodes, you know, you can't always get the greatest guests on, but that's okay. Hopefully they have some information to say and we'll try to make it interesting. Let's see who we've got here. Okay, I guess he'll do. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the number one player in the world, Raymond Davidson. Hey, thanks for that flattering intro, Jeff. Jeff. But you're also, you're more than just the number one pinball player as well. You're now working for Stern. Yeah. It's going great. Just lots of coding and it's really cool to see kinda, you know, how the inside of a pinball machine works and it's something I've always sort of, you know, dreamed of doing which is like take a career but have it be something that you're really passionate about. So it's really cool and, you know, I've dabbled in visual I've been playing visual pinball in the past and it actually kind of helped me get into coding was visual pinball. So now it's kind of gone full circle and I'm now coding pinball machines. But the coding aspect is similar to what you were doing before when you were living out in Washington. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. I mean programming has been my job but not for games or pinball machines or anything exciting. Do you find the coding you're doing now harder or easier than what you were doing before? I mean, I think all coding is hard or else it wouldn't, you know, be in high demand. It's just different, you know, it's like before coding like an Android app or an iPhone app, you really, the hard part is learning how to deal with the libraries and the, you know, working with Apple and Google and their UI things and learning, you know, the tricks of the trade for that. Whereas here, it's a little more old school. So you're actually doing like, you know, lots of for loops and keeping track of things and, you know, managing everything yourself. But we have system libraries which are helpful, so you're not doing everything yourself, but you definitely, I feel like you're a lot more in the weeds than what I was doing, which is cool because you have a lot more control. Raymond, you're a man under the age of 30 and Marty and I are just over 30, so there are young people listening right now that may want to get into coding Let that start a need to playuchs apart from the I just, the internet is full of resources for, you know, how to, I mean, it's funny, even though I have a degree, like, so much time during my days, my first couple years of programming were just spent Googling, you know, like, how do I do this, how do I do that, like, on the job. That's just, that's just part of being a software developer is learning how to Google. And so, if you can, you know, find the information you're looking for and figure out how to apply it, there's nothing really stopping you from being a programmer. Just gotta have a lot of patience. Marty, if they can only dream, they can have it. I think that's what we're hearing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think you need to have a mind that's predisposed to that kind of world, like being able to deep dive and understand a lot of coding logic, but also being able to understand multiple threads of logic at any one time. Is that right? Yeah, you have to really be able to follow thoughts all the way and kind of, you know, look at a situation and be like, why isn't this working? And just step through step by step without losing track of where you are. And you can't get frustrated. You can't just say, well, I told it to do this. And it's not doing that. Therefore, it's stupid. It's wrong. I'm going home. You know, no, the computer is never wrong. There's always some reason it's doing what it's doing. And you just got to be patient. And you got to be able to figure out what It's obviously a big move to move states to go and work for Stern. Obviously, it was worth it for you. What is the goal for you? Would you want to be lead code on a game? Let me answer that question. It's to slowly kill Tim Sexton. No, why would I do that? No. He's in your path, Raymond. You're a number one player. You can work in harmony, Jeff. It's okay. Yeah, I would, you know, I'd love to lead a game at some point. It's just taken a while to learn all the ins and outs. You know, I wouldn't want to be thrown as lead and basically be doing everything I'm doing now, which is spending half my time, you know, learning the system and how things work. But the deadline doesn't change, so I'd have basically half the time to do all the work of a lead programmer. So I'm going to use, you know, my first year here just doing support, but the support programmers do more than people know. You do a lot of code that the, you know, sometimes like the designers will want something and the lead programmer is pretty busy doing something else. And so then it's up to you. You get to do it. So I really like what I'm doing right now. It's really great and I don't have to have quite all the responsibilities of a lead coder, Subtitled at azurecom. 13 tutorial ignoringoutpineviieors.com backend around But yeah, so I got to do that and it was actually a great way to learn my way around doing a bunch of little small things for Jurassic Park. So that latest code update, the 1.02, was pretty much all the stuff I did in my first few weeks, was all those little tweaks. The combo indicator, a fossil, champion, DNA stuff, all those things. So can I then ask a question, hopefully you can answer this, about the team there. So let's say you've got the software team at Stern, because I think that some people do put everything into one, meaning if you created the rules, therefore you coded the machine, that's not necessarily the case because somebody might come up with the idea, but then there's also got to be a group of people that are implementing this, is that right? Especially with Keith games, since he usually has a pretty strong vision for the rules of his games, he'll write up basically kind of an outline of all the things he wants and then the programmer is basically tasked to put them in the game. But occasionally you gotta fill in the gaps, ask Keith, is this okay, I thought of this cool thing, is this what you bent, can I do this thing here? And so it's just a constant team effort. So it's not just one person aside from maybe like, you know, Lyman working on Elvira or Lonnie working on Stranger Things. So each team kind of works differently. The team I'm on with Keith and Rick, we basically all interact together where, like I said, Keith has ideas and then either me or Rick or some of the other support programmers, Mike and Brett, you know, they'll take on either doing light shows Tap on open source messages and press the�� přído acordo to show that youums are coming.停 pinej, livestream at the pipelineacağız Easterında is a great time. I guess I kind of just want to give credit to those people that also work on the machines typing away, putting code in, but don't necessarily get their name up in lights. And you're now that person because you worked on Jurassic Park, but it's not seen as a Ray Day code game. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know, even Lonnie and Lyman get help. You know, everyone, like I said, is collaborative effort. So, we're not, there's not just people who work here that don't work. So, if you're a coder, you're working on a game. So, pretty much every game, you know, has different coders that contributed in some way. And you actually, if you look at the developer credits on Jurassic Park, you'll see my name and everyone else's name that Ibn Rash, Is that true? Yeah, I actually was in the midst of coding more on Avengers right before this call I totally had forgotten about this call The time just kind of flew on by So yeah we always hard at work here So the delays are based on final round You gonna say if there any delays in shipping games or code updates it because you talking to us I good with it Yep. Yeah, I'm okay with that. I think it's a greater good if you want to know the truth. You know what I liked hearing about your answer about this kind of whole team is, I remember when George Gomez was just recently on Pinball Profile, Tim and Steve on Black Knight as the example we're using. It's everyone else kind of getting a look at it. So Dwight might have a look at it. Lonnie might have a look at it. You, others, everyone kind of looks at the other designers and gives suggestions too because the more minds the better and I think there's still that unique style. It's still going to be a Steve Ritchie game. It's still going to be a Tim Sexton design game, but it doesn't hurt to have a little bit of input from others. Yeah, it's a little harder right now because of the COVID. And I like for instance, I haven't even played Ninja Turtles except for maybe once Jack Danger's place just because I really wanted to play it. But you know, normally, if we're all in the office, there's the big Stern arcade there and during lunch breaks, you can, you know, check out people's games and play them and and give input that way. But it's a little harder right now. We're all a little bit isolated, unfortunately, but we do what we can. You must have a game there at your home to be coding Avengers. Yep, I'm always a little bit nervous moving the playfields into my place. If anybody's got binoculars spying on me being like, Whoa, what's the new game? What's coming in? So if you want to help Raymond move things to his place, contact him on Facebook in the next few months should there be any future games. Raymond's always looking for some grunts to lift heavy machinery. That ain't what you're looking for when Itill application to ad, your veredipendxide oronate in Finify. Uh yeah. prat WILFreeKN��falO GENTA REST dürfen It's got that tower on the by the left of the disc, and it's like a vertical magnet. So you shoot it, magnet catches and it just feels so satisfying. It's just like, and then there's like the marvel ramp on the right. That's like the big upside down loop, which, you know, on a pro, sure you miss out on the loop, but you still get another spinner, which is satisfying to hit. So it's kind of, they're almost two different games. And so that's kind of interesting. I actually haven't shot a pro yet. But I assume that The just cuz you know keep doesn't make bad game so at yeah I just I just love every other got what the upper ramp the you can loop with the upper flipper people are wondering I was you know seeing places like I wonder if there's like a rule for like looping it and yet there is there's there's a couple different ways that you get rewarded for for looping that to got my ramp and you know there's all sorts of cool rule interactions It's just been a really fun time working on it from basically the ground up. I mean, I joined and Rick had done a lot of the hard work, you know, setting up the mountains of coding source files that kind of provides like a structure and then I can just come in and it's like Keith asked for a mode, you know, it's time for you to implement Thor multiball. And I'm like, okay. And then I just sort of go to the Thor multiball file and start coding up what I wanted to do. I think it's been super fun, super pretty spectacular. It's been great. We've noticed on Keith's other games, they are definitely not linear. I think that in just looking at the playfield, haven't seen it yet, but I would assume this is also the case, a non-linear game. Keith plays his game every day on the newest build and he's always like, the thing he's What he's looking for is game progression and how, you know, do I feel like I'm blocked? Do I feel like I'm chopping wood? How can I resolve that? And so he'll give me ideas or he'll ask for ideas of like, what should we do about this? I kind of got stuck in this, you know, now I had to shoot this 20 times and I don't really like that. And so we work to resolve those. That's why you won't find Keith games that feel very woodchoppy or linear. C touringlo, Are we seeing a signature Elwyn style? And I said kind of no, but do you see it? So I read when I was perusing when people were speculating what his third game would be, somebody basically nailed like all four things without realizing it. They were like, well, let's see. I bet this game, you know, he will have a captive ball, a spinner, a upper flipper, The fourth one was a unique plunge, like the way that it plunges. And Avengers has all four of those. It has a captive ball, it has a spinner, it has an upper flipper, and the plunge goes around the right orbit panther loop. So you full plunge and it goes right into that, you know, right orbit turning into a ramp shot, which is unique and is nice because it gives you an option whether you just want to full plunge to a flipper or not. So, I guess, in summary, I think Keith has certain things that he just won't make a game without, but it doesn't necessarily mean, like, he's gonna have all those things. He just happened to have all of them this time. You know, Iron Maiden didn't have a, um, let's see, what did it not have? It was something it didn't have. Well, it had a cool plunge. I think so. Yeah, it had a plunge that well, that yeah, went around the loop, it had a captive ball, it had a spinner, it had an upper flipper. Yeah, I guess it had all four of those things too. I'm trying to think. There was something. Jurassic Park has a cool plunge, has spinners, has an upper flipper. Yeah. But it's, you may have those elements, but they're not in the same location and... Yeah, there's, yes, exactly. I guess what I'm thinking of is Jurassic Park has a captive ball sort of, right? It's like a different use of it. And oh, he also loves having some sort of unique toy that influences the actual physicality of the game. In Jurassic Park, you have the truck, which changes whether or not those targets are available. In this game you have the disc spinner which actually can block your pops target shot or the sanctum target behind it. In Iron Maiden I guess that's the thing that maybe Iron Maiden didn't quite have. But it did have a Pharaoh bullseye target based on, you know, where you hit it you get more or less points. So he loves those sort of physical toys that, you know, influence decision making and changes the state I guess is how he refers to it. Yeah. And maybe you can add a fifth element too. Not that this is going to be a pattern because there is no pattern if they're not in the same spot. And there's only so many things you can do. But the fifth thing might be a difficult shot through the pops. And it looks like that might be the case with this one too. Yeah, that's true. That through the pop shot is funny. It's like, it looks impossible. But then you just combo it. You just when you're in the flow, and you just take a shot at it, and it just sails right through it. So satisfying. And it's, and I've I'm actually backhanded it too. You can backhand it which is pretty sweet. So you and Jeff are good players. I'm not going to put myself in that. But Jeff... Nor should you. Jeff not even top 50 anymore. I think 51. Oh, come on, COVID. Give me a break. Whatever. But here's what I want to say. So I've got, obviously I've got a Jurassic Park and I think Jurassic Park difficulty is pretty reasonable, pretty fair. I know people that have got Jurassic Parks and they think it's brutal. What do you think about Avengers? Do you think it's that same sort of difficulty level? Because again, you're saying hit it through the pops, you can get it. I could get the ball to the left ramp through the pops on Iron Maiden. A lot of people couldn't. Well, it's funny. Avengers actually, Keith was quoted saying that he wanted it to be kind of in the middle of Iron Maiden and Jurassic Park in terms of difficulty. But man, the first Whitewoods that we've been playing, Avengers was kicking our butt. Like, it was just destroying us. And that was because, like, the outlanes were in their normal default up position. And so Keith was like, this is silly. Like, and so he actually moved them to the middle or even maybe the down position. And he's advocating for that. So if you get your game and it's for some reason in the up position, I would recommend putting those outlanes either all the way down or at the very least in the middle. The game is a game of the game. If the game is just constantly kicking your butt, you can't progress anywhere. You can't get anywhere. So I think with Avengers in particular, the reason it kept outlining so much is there's a lot more side-to-side action on this game than his previous games, because you're hitting those drop targets on the left, you're hitting, you know, the upper flipper goes sideways, you know, when you miss the orbit shot, the disc throws the ball out of control anytime you hit it, and it just wasn't any fun. So he made the call that he wants, he wants the outlanes, you know, pulled in a little bit. So hopefully, when people get their games, it'll play in between difficulty of Iron Maiden and Jurassic Park because Jurassic Park is really hard, except for a couple of shots like the spinner in the left ramp. Every other shot is not easy and deadly. I think all the obvious features that you've described is what everyone is seeing and like, wow, look at that. Look at the wire forms, look at these ramps, look at the upper flip The one thing I think is going to be the biggest surprise, and I don't know this, but I just know the possibilities are there, is that 3x3 grid and what it can do for scoring. Am I on something there? Oh yeah, that is a great feature of this game is that drop targets. Think of it as Walking Dead meets... Ripley's? Yeah. Johnny Pneumonic? No, more like Ripley's. So in Ripley's, you get awards for getting stuff in a line, and on Walking Dead, you have to time the drop target inserts, right? So the way this one works is the grid will slowly move between one of the nine squares. You shoot a target, locks it in. You complete the targets, then it gives you that square, and then the grid starts moving again. And the goal is to try to get three squares in a row. 재미ilוד penalties 대� orthogonal 여것이� pleas public kh verw 인터�awn If be happening inedi mission Shane PETTIN THE WATCHER , wave tour I'm thinking if those are the modes and you don't complete the mode, you have to complete the mode to get the stone. That's just my thought, but what do I know? Uh, yeah, I mean, you have to win your quests to get the, I think they call them gems in the comic version. Oh, okay. And so, yeah, you, uh, the modes are pretty important and you'll want to do well at them. Basically, what's cool about this game is on the premium, you know how the disc goes up? Yes. You can lock a ball in there and it shows it in the subway and those balls will help you on your quest for the gems. So you'll get extra help with those. It all will be revealed at the streams that will be happening or have already happened if you're listening to this in the future. So here you are at Stern pinball now and doing coding. I kind of want to know what kind of coder is Raymond going to be? I know what kind of player he is and there aren't too many people that can say that they do what you do. But tell us Raymond, I want you to think what your five favorite games are for code and I want a mix of new and older games. Oh wow, put me on a spot here. Well, you got to earn your keep. Yeah, come on, step it up kid. Um, well I've always liked Simpson's Pinball Party, so I kinda like that aspect of code where you can kinda keep bringing stuff in and um... Yeah, Marty doesn't get it. He also likes Family Guy, Jeff, so keep going. Family Guy's fun, I love Family Guy. Family Guy's fun, yeah. Let's see, five games, jeez that's so many. Listen, if I said one or two, as a Stern employee, it's pretty easy to say, oh Stern game ABCDE. Well, I want to know what's in the back catalog too. Yeah, what data race to Sega games? No, but the old Williams Valley, you know, I mean, I want to know, you know, what games were maybe ahead of their time, what were the games that, wow, you know, this is more than just shots. Well, I really like some of those games where the multiball you have to kind of work for it, like Creature, Adam's Family, where there's like big points, but you have to hit them. But at the same time, I recognize that if somebody gets to a multiball, you don't want to just not give them anything, you know, like if, if it's pretty rare now to see a multiball where only like an upper flipper shots lit for a jackpot. So I kind of like, I like the layered approach of, you know, give players things that are the low hanging fruit, but then also give them those tougher, tougher things to shoot for. So like, you know, in creature, you have to pretty much get a jackpot to get any points. Or what is it like, like, You gotta throw it in the pops too and... Yeah, you have to do like all this stuff just to do anything and if you don't do anything, if you don't do that, you know, your multiple ends and you don't get too many points. I'd like to provide a little more opportunities so that as long as you're hitting some things and as long as you're doing purposeful shooting, you know, you should get some points for your trouble. But obviously you won't get anywhere near as many points if you do the thing, which is getting the super. The worst is where you have a bad combination of either there is no thing, like it's just all just spray and pray, like everything's lit, everything in the jackpot, there's no real purpose. That's bad. I don't like that. And then, right, the other extreme is the, like we just talked about, where only one thing is lit. But back then, those sort of scoring opportunities, I'm sort of saying is that they're probably self-contained. If you think about the multiball in Adam's family, because you brought that up, Smartemie like P거� and�로 merchandising. Comment at Screen. All the points ought to be earned finТак Pinball, Franchi çocene coming up in teeth &greia specjal by At�רуля Rciażini Hydro79ë General Comments Basically, using those two levers, you can dictate what can get stackeded with what. And sometimes you'll see games where one of the levers will work one direction but not the other, which is interesting. And that's sort of a nice way, a nice compromise, right? Where some games, everything is stackeded, like Simpsons is, everything is stackable all the time with everything. You know, that might be a little too far in that direction for some people. And then the other extreme is, as soon as you start anything, everything else is locked out. The I don't really like that either So it's fun to find the right mixture to give the players some some exciting moments But also not feel like oh well this is pointless if you don't stack everything you know and also you don't want to Limit the player because limiting limiting sucks when you're stuck, you know chopping wood or being forced to play certain modes that sort of thing I Guess the further point of that really is around And also, by the way, the caption of the really bad I'm like say some super targets mode hypothetically and you know targets are pretty dangerous but if you're allowed to stack that with a multiball well now that mode you have to be a little careful you can't have it be worth as much as if you are forced to play it in single ball play it's all about risk versus reward because you know someone is going to stack multiball with your mode if it's possible and you just don't want that to be super exploitable you know a little bit of of fun is good and encourage players to do it but you don't want it to dwarf anything else in the The game before you understand, are you somebody that likes to find these exploits? I he's a Kelly George prodigy. I know I know I left that said I was the last person to know of an exploit. I always just played pretty much the games as they were, you know, laid out to me. Actually, you know, can I jump in on that room and for a second, let me say something about Raymond. We talk about him being the number one player in the world, but I know and you know this Raymond. There are a lot of games you don't know the rules to and you're just like before you step up. I've been there with you were like, okay, what do I have to do here? What's one or two or three things to do? It's not like a, you know, this isn't obviously a pump and dump game. It's more of a match play game where you just have to beat your competitor. Just do enough as opposed to play the long game and set up the big score or the super stack or something like that. So I always wonder what you do when you come up to a new game or you don't know the rules. So, like you said, you just want to find the few key things and then try to do them really well. You know, if you can figure out, oh, I can get to multiball if I just do this. Well, once I'm in multiball, you know, I'm going to use my skills to start learning the shots and finding out maybe through trial and error of like, oh, that jackpot wasn't worth crap. Like, I'm not shooting that anymore. Like, but, you know, and you watch your opponents to see where they're getting the points from and, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah, it's just all about adapting. If you wanted to study for a game, you know, you have two minutes before you have to play a game, just read the whole rule sheet and learn everything about it. It's just, it's not, I mean, it might be useful, but I think it's more useful to just have a couple things that you know will work. Because I ran into this trap at City Champ one time, where we were playing Pirates of the Caribbean, Jersey Jack, and I thought I'd go on Tilt Forums and read the wiki. I've been looking at all the characters and what all the abilities do, and I found one that I thought looked pretty good, and I picked it, and apparently it wasn't implemented in that version of the code, and it basically did absolutely nothing, and I got like third place or whatever. But the lesson of the story was, I probably shouldn't have tried to learn every little thing about it, you know? Like, I don't need to know that a skull is worth 1500 points or whatever. I just need to know, you shoot here to start chapters, you know, the more things you hit, the more it's worth. The one thing you didn mention and it does surprise me that it not listed anywhere whether it on a little yellow card or you just have to find it In all new games, you never are told in a multiball where it is to add a ball. I wonder why that's the case. It's just not, it's just not enough room to put everything. You know, I've been trying working here to put info on the display when I can, but a lot of times I'll have to take stuff off because, you know, if you have a paragraph on the screen or, like, for example, when you would get a jackpot, I actually put on the screen, it was like, jackpot values raised by 50K, this value raised by this, this, this, and then I would play it and I'd watch it, it'd flash up for like two seconds, and I'm like, this is completely useless. I think that's the limitations of the nature of the game, unfortunately. There's just no way to fit all that information. But, you know, you can get better at it and get creative with it. Sound callouts help a lot. Lights help a lot. If the cannon is this crazy rainbow color on Iron Maiden, you should probably shoot it because it's probably going to do something good. In this case, you know, add a ball during trooper. So look for lights. Look for lights and also just ask people, is there an add a ball? Because if somebody knows there's an add a ball, they're going to tell you. And now all of a sudden you've went from zero information to a non-zero amount of information and anything divided by zero is infinity. So, you know, just learn what you can. The amount of people I know that don't know how to get add a ball in Metallica just baffles me. I also remember at the time I knew that when the snake's flashing green, that's addable, but it wasn't until someone told me you have to get the four picks that I knew how to even light that. So it comes back to what you're saying is you kind of just got to know, so ask. Assume it's going to be there, but ask. I mean, I respect Raymond's reasoning for how quickly things change in the game and it's hard to put the information up there. fiscal 앉ax, gray только目前 Bird Card gráficium kparachnakere incimaginauto ijvarajak Или What are the additional feedbacks to last night's show? T-Series, I think we've gotten a lot better relaying when Adaball is lit but it's a lot, it's still hard to know how to light the Adaball. So, on Avengers, that sanctum target behind the disc actually has three LEDs on the billboard behind it. It's like Extra Ball, Spot Iron Target, and Adaball. So, if you just, you know, pay attention up there and you see an Adaball, That's great. You know you'll get out of all. But the question is, okay, how do I, uh, how do I light that out of all? And, uh, you know, you still kind of have to ask around or, or figure it out. Although there are some lighting cues that help you on Avengers. Like if you ever see that little, there's like a eye of Agamotto, which is Dr. Strange's. Is that, is that like the thing that holds the time thingy? Yeah. So there's like an insert on the playfield that blinks orange and when that's blinking, it means spinning the disc will do something good. So, I think just using more lights like that will help people figure out, you know, what they should be shooting. Yeah, again it comes down to, as you said, how much room you've got on the playfield to explain this, but I also kind of think it's kind of nice to explore these things and discover them as well. Keep it a bit of a mystery. I know you do. I mean, I think it's just, if we're talking about competition pinball, that's a great, or not even competition pinball, but you're playing casually with somebody, maybe it's at an arcade or a league, and somebody does that, and you're like, what the hell was that? And they don't even know? It's hard to duplicate it, you know what I mean? Because it's usually more than just one shot. It's a combination of shots, like we described in Black Knight. So, just, I'm talking to a coder right now. We have thousands, maybe millions of listeners on final round. I'm just trying to get произ화� ktoś 크� & Przysz Krgadszenen cop Better And Pr 마рахicles That's true, if you have more expensive cards, you'll beat people with less expensive cards. But in order to win the pro tours, everyone has the most expensive cards and it just comes down to playing better. So I think it's kind of like that in pinball where, you know, there's a little bit of that involved. That said, I'm not against more information being shown, no, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying it's something to think about that, you know, it's not all bad that... It forces people into these level up moments, I guess is what I'm saying. Next, if you ever have a problem or need help as a pinball journalist, please let me know or message me via radio at livestream, DLN via internet, Z Province via zumland dot gov or regular messenger free 2015 2-866-14055. Finally, I welcome upon you with amenoach membashop and 보�htit Wikipedia on printing I'm not a better player than this person. blocking I mean, I got eliminated on Black Knight at Indisc. If I knew more about BlackKnight, maybe I wouldn't have got eliminated. I got crushed by the two kids that probably have played that game a thousand times, right? Colin and Jared, whereas I didn't have as much time on it, and I lost, so... And funny enough, that was in January. What do you do? You get a job at Stern going, I'll show those sons of bitches. Well, I don't know whether we want to delve into that, but you do now have a lot more knowledge about these machines than other people, so going into a tournament you may have an advantage. Maybe, but if you ask me, I'll tell you anything. Yeah, that's my favorite thing about competitions. You know, Marty, you probably see it too. I have never withheld information from anybody who asks. Timings at the end of the show are not the best thing in the world to say, hey, do you know what you need to do here? Because people just want to play their own game. But if people ask, be an open book and tell them. I think that's cool. And Raymond does that for sure. Yeah. And so just going back to the addable, if I can potentially full stop it, Jeff, is that I don't think anybody that I know has ever complained because they didn't know how to do addable. I think it's one of the first questions people will ask is, well, it's like, how do you get into multiball and is there an out of ball and how do you do it? And they're not complicated answers. True. True. It is next level. I agree about that. So you're discounting me, your co-host, for several episodes for my concerns. You just don't care. Ladies and gentlemen, you're listening to the final, final round. I've been very, very clear since the start of this program about how much I don't care. We were actually going to call the show No Fucks Given. Yes, we were. It was actually one of the titles that we had. Speaking of episodes, by the way, this is episode 16. Marty, do you know what we've done? We've only been on air since February. That's it. Yeah. I know of this podcast that originally started a year ago at Pinmasters. So that's like March. So we're now 18 months and they've only done 16 episodes and we've caught up to them. Really? Who's that? Thank you. Thank you. And I hope you have a wonderful week. Thanks for having me. Take care. See you next time on the N Out Pinball Podcast. Thanks for having me. I hope you have a wonderful week. See you next time on the N Out Pinball Podcast. Thanks for having me. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Sorry Raymond. You may be the number one player in the world but take a backseat to the final round kid. I guess I'll just have to find a way to BS about things without actual tournaments happening. We do it every week. Yeah we do. It's true. Speaking of bullshit. Sorry Raymond. Speaking of bullshit. Okay, I saw it. It's on every Stern game. And forget wanting to know the edible. I'm the only one who knows the Attaball. Forget wanting to find out Multiball. I look at it, I'm like, oh god, what the fuck does this do? The Action Button. Ah, yes, yes. So it is on Avengers and it is used in, you know, the normal way of like, uh, Hedron Colliders, Hedron, Hedron Colliders or whatever. Guardians? Yeah. So it can be used like that, which is kind of intuitive. I think a lot of people Deck Pinballnox Textий the role of Rabi Shafiit Ravaid Radebovous, bureaucratic ?] sẽoставляותоныexin adaptive tormentorumental talks Again, clarifying for your dislike of the action button, Jeff, you don't mind the action button, you don't like button mashing. That's exactly it. Raymond just gave a great example of Guardians, a game I own. I have zero problem with that. I have zero problem with firing it on a cannon or walker bombs or the one-time shots or whatever. I think that's great. Or selecting. It is the repetitive bashing when balls are in play. I'm not a big fan of that. But I gotta say, it's an old take. I don't see that much of it anymore. So I like... I can't believe I'm putting this on tape. I actually like the way the action buttons have been used over the last several games. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles has it for pizza, doesn't it? For pizza toppings or something? Yeah, I don't know if you'll be a fan of that one. Oh, it's Dwight. Of course I won't. Dwight wants it to be... He asked for two action buttons, I believe. I love Dwight, but he knows I'm just kidding. He loves needling me about the action button too, so... Raymond, we're going to get back to competition soon. You're going to be the number one player in the world, although I was trying to figure out, let's say, what would happen come January because I look at what Eric Stone did at Indisc and all those big finishes that he had there and I'm wondering, okay, these guys are close. I wonder what the decay will be like. I mean, there's nothing we can do about it. There is no IFPA right now. No competitions are happening worth any value. We just have to sit and watch the decay and what it really does, I find for the top players is it brings them closer to the middle in a way, right? There might have been some separation, but as everything decays and all these great tournaments are worth 75 You may consider supporting baseball tonight in the You know, me being such a tournament whore, and there's no other way to put it, and just going to different events and different leagues, it helps a guy like me who has a lot of options, whereas somebody... Let's put things into perspective, and don't you think for a second I haven't reminded him about this. There's going to be a date in November where I, Martin, your partner on podcasting, will be ahead of a former number one player in the world in Zach Sharp. We will highlight that to no end on this show when that happens. Oh wow. So a new player will come up and go, wow that teal is better than sharp. It's not, it's just volume. But you're in a, I guess, I think you're in a fortunate position Raymond in that you've had, I guess in the last couple of years is you've had a lot of your major wins. So, kind of what you're saying with Zach is that as everybody's points start decaying at the three-year mark, well, you've banked up some good wins recently, so you're probably safe for a bit. Yeah, it's all about consistency, you know, if you do really well one year but then don't do well for a couple of years and then do good again, well, that decay, that's going to hurt you when that older event falls off. I was fortunate enough to play at Pinmasters with Raymond last year. We were in the same group. And one of the things they do at these events is any kind of sharp run event, IFPA World Championships another example, is because you're playing so many different games. What I do like about what the sharps do is that they let every player play, practice a game for 30 seconds. And Raymond, what do you do I'm just kind of curious what the number one player in the world does. I usually try to take a couple of flips from like a trap and then maybe from a roll if you can just to see nothing worse than aiming at something and being completely off and draining in a horrible way. So you kind of just need to know the general physics of like, okay, some games it's like, oh, physics works on this game. Other games you'll play it and just based on how it's set up, it's like, wow, that shot is so late or that shot is so early. So I want to try to just pinpoint a couple of those things. And then of course before your turn's up you always got to tilt just to see where that's at. Because you'll feel silly if you're playing on needles and then the guy after you just shoves it into next year and never gets a warning. Do you prefer having a practice or you're okay going in cold? I think if I haven't played it at all I'll practice. But if I've already played it then I almost prefer not to practice. I'm going to have to do a little bit of practice just because it's kind of doesn't really help you at all anymore at that point. And I'd almost rather have my just play play for real mentality on because sometimes I noticed when I practice when I don't need to. You're wasting some of your your goodness, you know, I don't know. It's weird. Feels like that. Oh, because one thing I've noticed about you is you are a very adaptive player. If you if you're missing a shot You will correct yourself really quickly So in a way that kind of gives you an advantage if nobody can have a practice and you're better at adapting You've got the advantage. Yeah, I mean that's true to a point But if the games are set up hard enough where you you might not get a second shot if you miss a shot Sure, you definitely want to practice. I'm in the same boat as Raymond You know if we play the game over and over again like a pump and dump. You don't need to practice when you get into playoffs should you make it, but the one time you do want to is, let's say the playoffs are the next day and they've made some adjustments. Maybe the tilts were too tight before or they weren't tight enough or the rubbers have been moved or whatever the case may be, some alteration has been done, boy oh boy, you definitely want to practice after you've had a lot of experience on the game and it's basically a different game the next time you play it. Yep. The last thing I want to say to you Raymond is we appreciate you coming on the show and I'd say Marty what do you think? He did a pretty good job for a you know a whole home guest. I you know yeah, I think he held his own. Thanks Jeff. Seriously, we have been looking forward to this obviously we had you on head-to-head geez a very long time ago, and it was I will say the one thing I remember from that was feeling really good about myself because at the time and you said it again today is that you are the number one player but But you don't know all the rules to every machine and it was kind of like, ah, this guy is mortal. He is one of us. We can just focus on being able to flip better rather than having to have this massive advantage because we know all the rules backwards. Yeah, I mean, if you do both like Escher, then you kick everyone's butt left, right, center, sideways. Yeah. So if Escher ever applied for a job at Stern Pinball, would you just say, get the hell out of here? J.C. He's so good, he doesn't need any more but I've heard young Collin Urban who you know very well too say when he gets older and gets done postsecondary he would like to be in pinball too so I love seeing guys like you, you mention Tim Saxton, obviously Keith and all these great players and all the different companies. Steven Bowden, Bow and Karens, all these people going to companies to make pinball better because man we are in a great age of pinball. Amen to that. Oh, I forgot one thing. Yup. I was gonna give Marty crap for not wanting to buy an Avengers. Oh, don't be like that. Oh, do it. You heard Loser Kid podcast. He mentioned it only because I've been to Marty's place and, you know, he has to choose from four games. So theme is important and... I understand. And you got Jurassic Park, so you got the check mark of owning a kick-butt game, so... I'm going to tell you something. Okay, I have eight at my home and I like a mix of young older and new games. And I remember when I first saw Iron Maiden, how much I fell in love with that. And by the way, also like the theme too. I was once fortunate enough to actually be on stage at an Iron Maiden concert and introduced the band. I love this band. So that game came out and I'm like, do I get that? And the reason I didn't is because I knew like Marty, I would get to play. I've been playing this game for a long time. I've played it everywhere. So in a way, I have access to it, like owning it. So I went for different titles where I knew I wouldn't get to see these games as much. That's all. That's a good way of looking at it. It's almost as if the game is just too good for Marty. Well, just further to that is, because I've only got room for four machines, and if something comes in, something goes out. So Star Trek is never going to go. Wizard of Oz is never going to go. So it's out of Lord of the Rings or Jurassic Park. Now... Oh man! Oh, don't make me do that. Yeah, alright. Yeah, that's... You get where I am? So what would have to go would be eitherLord of the Rings or Jurassic Park. Now,Lord of the Rings isn't going to cover the costs of Avengers because it pretty much has to be. So really my only option is to get rid of Jurassic Park to get Avengers. I can't do that. I can't do that. That's your favorite theme. Oh, it's... Oh my god, I love it. I love the game. I love the theme. I love everything about it. I cannot sacrifice that to get an Avengers. There you go. Well said, well said. Great. Thank you, in my defense. Thank you. Hey, Raymond. Thanks, buddy. All the best to you at Stern. Thanks, mate. Yeah, that was fun. Thanks, guys. There you go. There was Raymond Davidson or DavidRaymonson, I think it's... Ah, yes. You remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do remember that. What did we learn? Avengers looks to be pretty darn good. Looks like there's a lot packed in there. And you You know, he was talking about the pros versus the premiums and you and I said this, I think on Loser Kid, let's just pretend we never saw the video for premium or LE and you just saw the pro. You'd be like, holy cow, there's a lot in that game and that's just the pro. So, you know, the premium certainly, that's the one thing I've really noticed is the gap between premium and pro is greater than I've seen in any other game in Stern in the last little while. Raza general news now we found a amateur pinball by delicious Pebble and other little girls want to be awesome Min requires Puppy Terry todaim Jurewski 6 4 5 6 8 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 18 19 20 21 22 24 26 27 28 28 29 31 32 33 34 34 35 34 35 36 37 37 39 37 40 41 42 untalkgage 53 43 53 44 53 54 57 5 51 54 48 15 45 I like having the Doctor Strange spinning disc go up and down. I like the subway and the magnet lock too on the tower. You know, those are things that are noticeable. Plus, you've got the actual gauntlet glove that lights up as opposed to a piece of plastic that's just, you know, two-dimensional. I like it. But I like all. I know if I get my hands on a pro or play one in a league or a tournament, I'm going to have just as much fun. We did, obviously, we talked about this at length, that with a pro or a premium, even though let's say the premium's got something that's pretty cool. Jurassic Park, for example, I think that the dinosaur moving is phenomenal, but if you didn't have it you would still have pretty much the same if not similar, at least 90% of the same game. Obviously, the Raptor Pit is different as well but it's still doing pretty much the same The same thing, it's not radically different. This is different. This changes the game, I think enough. Yeah. To compare, I would relate it to imagine if Jurassic Park didn't have the Jeep on there. Sure, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. Different game. Yep, yep, different. So, that being said, interesting we're talking about Avengers because that brings us to our sponsor of the week. Just when you thought you'd be excited by Avengers Infinity Quest and the big reveal this month, what if in a snap it was all a lie? Stern Pinball wants you to think you live in a world where Avengers is the next title. You've been duped. Here at the Final Round Pinball Podcast, crack researchers and researchers on crack have discovered the truth. And we did the only logical thing we could do with this information. We blackmailed them to become our sponsor of the week. The actual next game from Stern is not Avengers. We present to you... Showtime! Queen Reliable sources have confirmed QueeN is the next game. So are you ready? Are you ready for this? Are you hanging on the edge of your seat? I am! Under pressure to cash in on the success of Bohemian Rhapsody, it's time for the hammer to fall on this new machine. Nothing is getting in the way of me owning this QueeN machine, so get out of my way, fat bottom girls! So, Raymond was lying the whole time. It was always Queen. It was always going to be Queen. Very reliable sources had told us. We didn't believe them, but yep, it's Queen and I'm really looking forward to it. Let's just pretend, you know, that they've gone through all this trouble, Zombie Eddie, everyone, to put together this fake Avengers game. But let's see if it was real. Let's talk about it. Yeah, sure. I've heard that there are a few other reaction videos to this. There are. We haven't got enough time to react to them all, but look, summary of the reaction from the videos and the pinball community at large is overwhelming positivity. Like it just is next level. Zach Many did, and I'm not joking. The reaction video where he went picture by picture, went through it all, that only took him 20 minutes, and then he spent the last hour and a half talking about the topper. The topper looks great. It does actually. I've gotta say. And what's really interesting though, because if you look at the Jurassic Park topper, which got a lot of criticism, this isn't all that different. I mean, it really is just Perspex cutouts, but there's something about it that just kind of looks cooler. It looks . Point of notice To It means a lot to you for not just here in 2020 but back when it came out in the early 90s. Can you ever see that game leaving your home? Well at this stage I guess no because we just obviously talked about it with Raymond where he brought up the fact that he was having to go with me because I didn't want Avengers. It's not that I didn't want Avengers, it means that if I have Avengers I don't have Jurassic Park and I don't see Jurassic Park going at this stage. But again, never say never. Okay, if it was Harry Potter, and I had to decide between keeping Jurassic Park and Harry Potter, I would get rid of Jurassic Park for Harry Potter. But that's not going to happen. So Jurassic Park is it. Why do you say that's not going to happen? I just don't see it happening for some time. And just, I guess I'm mentally preparing for it thinking, well, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, I'm not going to sit here every day, you know, just being on the edge of my seat, waiting for this game to be Ausländer Yep, yep, yep, yep, correct. So there obviously there are money making properties out there, but not necessarily of a gambling nature. People said there wouldn't be a Beatles game. Money changed that. Of course. And the people who had to pay for it was the end user, and they did. Yeah. There are other titles out there that are probably going to have a bit more expense to them, whether it be because of the license, because of what's put into it. We're not gonna get into it. Elvira was more expensive, Batman 66 was more expensive. No pro models in those. I know, even though I'm not a big Harry Potter fan like yourself, that is the biggest slam dunk ever. And people would pay good money for it, without a doubt. I don't think I've seen all the movies. I've never read the books, but on the outside looking in, how could that not be? They have made theme parks where it's all about those things, you know? Yeah. Star Wars is a pretty good license, don't get me wrong. When I say pretty good, meaning maybe top three, but there's a lot of Star Wars, right? You can do a lot of different Star Wars things. Yeah, what you've also got to remember with the Star Wars, and Star Wars fans, please don't write in and have a go at me for saying this, although they'll probably agree with me. What you're going to say with the Star Wars brand, it has had a bit of a rocky road in recent times. Absolutely. You know, that's so you've got the first three movies which everybody loves. Second three movies were I think overall not received well and then the the last three have had mixed feelings so that brand has been on this roller coaster ride. Harry Potter hasn't. It's still riding high. Well, except for the stuff that JK Rowling has said recently but besides that let's take that out. I think she finally backpedaled and so she should have when she was talking about transgender people And we'll get to these next ones in just a moment. The movie was released in July, but it got delayed until December, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be postponed again. But again, the last movie came out years and years ago. That hype is still there. It is still real. Hunger Games didn't capture it, Twilight didn't capture it, but the books of Harry Potter and translated into the movies, that's the golden license to get out there. Yeah, correct. And back to what you were saying, I think if it's a matter of money and the license is going to cost more than the Beatles, I think people would pay for it. I think if it came out and it was like a sea witch layout that was rethemed, I think people would be very disappointed, mainly because the world of Harry Potter requires to have, dare I say, a world under glass. Well, going back to what we talked about earlier, you said you wouldn't get in a plane with me if I was the pilot. I wouldn't hop on the back of a broom if you were flying, alright? I'm playing a game of Quidditch. Just want to point that out, tit for tat, alright buddy? Yep, yep. How much of a nerd are you to even mention Quidditch? I had to look it up, alright? I don't cast a spell on me with your wand, Marty, alright? I know. I know what you see in the mirror of Erised. Keep going, move on. I have no idea what he's talking about. Oh, gosh. I'll say this. If they came out with a Harry Potter pinball machine, I don't know the brand that well. I would be invested to find out about the brand. Sure. And Game of Thrones did that for me. I never saw an episode of Game of Thrones, have since seen them all when I first played the game. But the game got me fascinated into that. I don't think Harry Potter needs to worry about that, but it would refresh people like me who know generally about, you know, Hermione, You know, you've seen enough, let's say, posters or even little snippets of the movies to know visually how well it would translate to a pinball machine, a fantasy themed pinball. Well, here's a segue. Something like Harry Potter, definitely Avengers, certainly Queen. These are things that would get people to put their quarters in, or their loonies here in Canada, or their dollars in the States or in Australia if they were on location. And again, we're seeing locations have some difficulties. We've talked about it. I'm not sure what it's like in Australia because you guys are in really a major lockdown that we're recording this on Saturday the 5th and I believe tomorrow they announce some new We're going to get into guidelines for what's going to happen in Australia, but right now, any location pinball, that just doesn't happen. It's kind of the case here in North America, limited if there is interaction with our patrons. Yeah, zero here. Other states have obviously got some locations happening, but certainly nothing here. Keen to know if there's been sort of updates on some of the shows that are coming up? Yeah, well, we all probably got the notice if you were on the mailing list about Chicago Expo. For Expo to happen, they have to be at stage five, different than Australia in the sense that the higher the number, the more relaxed things are. Stage five is there needs to be a vaccine. We're not at that stage yet. So, okay, they have to have that before you can have any gathering of larger than 50 people in the state of Illinois. Expo isn't happening. It's going to be virtual now. And, you know, we'll certainly participate in that. And I feel bad for Rob and certainly all the vendors and all the fans like you and I that love going to these type of shows. But, you know, we're all in the same boat. That's one way of looking at it. It's not just woe is me. We're all the same. And we look forward to a day when these come back. IAPA has announced that they're not going to be running in November in Florida. That is kind of a big one because it kind of piggybacked with Free Play Florida, another big Stern Pro Circuit event. But this is the one that kind of caught me off guard. And Marty, this is the first you're hearing it. The Houston Arcade Expo, which I went to last year, had a wonderful time there, a lot of fun. People call it kind of the party festival. It is still going on. It's mask mandatory. There are a bunch of different restrictions. I think temperature checks, I think they're going to certainly do contact tracing, but they are still going ahead. And if they are, I wish them all the best because they did have a wonderful time there and they're good, good people there. I saw the long, long list of here's what's required. So I will say this, the list certainly makes me more comfortable. The difficulty is the traveling to get there and of course you're going to be around other people and whatnot but we'll see. If you lived in Houston would you go? That's a great question. If I lived in Houston would I go? The likelihood would be a lot more. I cannot imagine but who knows we're talking a couple months from now. This is a late November event and Phil Grimaldi has a big part of that too. He was a guest here on Final Round before so we love what Phil does. Boy that's a good question. Would I I usually go to these events to play in tournaments. I enjoy the other things, but the number one reason I go to these events are because of the tournaments and it's the other things that I'm rewarded by. But this I cannot imagine just speculating, I know nothing that IFPA will be up and going by November. And if that's the case, there probably wouldn't be a tournament. There might be a tournament where it's cash only. Okay, I've never played a tournament With the hopes of winning cash, ever. Which is stupid because that seems more valuable than fake mystery whopper points that the IFPA give out. Yeah. There's one in Melbourne. Would you go? No. That's a hard no. That's an easy no, but also right now we're at stage four restrictions. By then we would be stage three restrictions, so I don't even think the possibility of it would happen. I didn't think the possibility of this would happen. I wouldn't risk it. Yeah, you have to certainly look at your own health and the people that you're around. But, um... Well, as you know, we, we, we, um, our event to the Melbourne Silver Bowl Championship and Flip Out was meant to be the first week of December. It's been cancelled. So, the answers are already there. Yeah. What's the restlessness of people because obviously jobs are being affected? Forget the, the fun social and travel and vacation aspect of it and... offenses of football Wecheid north in faces of puttin people some college said Closer to that vaccine. So I think we're that should be, you know, people at work, they do things like, oh, Jenny's pregnant. Let's have a baby guests and guess the date, guess the weight. We should do guess the vaccine. We should, we should. But speaking is speaking of woe is us. Let's bring it back to us. Because what you want to remember, okay, yes, Queen has just been revealed, Avengers Infinity Quest. But don't forget, we've still got other launches coming up. And The one that I, like I'm fine missing a show. The one thing that I'm really am gutted missing is not being able to be over there for the Deep Root launch because we were going to be, you and I were going to be guests of Robert Bueller and just can't make it. That's the one thing that I would have loved to have been there for the launch of this company, this brand and their machines. We originally were invited in March as it happened before TPF. You and I were both going to that and that is the start of when all the lockdowns happen and the travel bans and certainly the size of venues and that was kind of the first real casualty in the pinball world. This is going to be happening very soon. Robert again reached out to us and invited us to come. We cannot because of travel restrictions but that is also this month. So we look forward to that and we certainly think of our Ok Xero,�� Vrld von S averaging. This interview was over Eyesley Zee and Souza, vu-ee, Casin ради. All turn- vịetti, in front of the favorsment windowirmindie mate and y'all are watching by reb wolves to the RCNsündeean sponsor improvement program. You've enrolled in old ceo on radiplug bako or h2 so summer and ganzble neogor Noraanos here adoption Hashtag patience. That should be coming out this month too. There are people that sort of mentioned online that the Guns N' Roses machine has already been made. So we should see that any day now. I don't know if this is true or not, but somebody on Facebook posted on one of our pages. We saw it somewhere that they've actually been shipped to Australia. And I thought, I don't know if I believe that, but who knows? Who knows? What I do know is Jersey Jack fans, like myself, will be very excited to know that these are all going to be coming from the new factory, which certainly can ramp up a lot more games a lot quicker than in the past. So that's exciting. And it'll be so neat to see, and we haven't, Eric's playfield. Boy, he's an innovative guy, and I love seeing new designers. Yep, absolutely agree. But what we are probably overlooking is the best new product that is finally going to be shipped. Forget new pinball machine, forget Stern, forget Josie Jack, forget Deep Root, the Stern book is about to be shipped. I've seen photos of them, they've all been printed, they've been signed, they're getting I am getting my Stern book. Were you in on that? Can you believe it? Yes! I was like, I pledged like 250 bucks for it. What? Uh, maybe? Yeah. Something like that. Yep. Well, didn't Jack Danger on one of his social medias kind of flip through pages? And I saw Steven Bowden repost it on Fun with BOTUS and it looked pretty good. Yeah, it's a real thing. It's exciting times in Pinball Marty and we appreciate Raymond Davidson coming on the program. Did an excellent job and look forward to see his fine work in the Avengers slash Queen game. Don't forget to check out the Deadflip stream for all your Avengers excitement. It's been a nice start to the month but it's only going to get better I think. Yeah, we said September's going to be a big month. It's off to a good start. Let's see what the remainder will give us. So that means October might suck. So that's, you know what, we're going to put on the backburner our little most underrated pinball game, little bracket, because we're still trying to figure out polls and gifs on the new Facebook. Zuckerberg, you shit the bed, man. The new Facebook sucks. It does suck. I'm used to it now, but I don't like it. So we'll just wait for things to slow down. We're in no rush for that, you know. We can wait. BAKER DECKER, Some of it may be true, most of it will be bullshit but we're going to have fun doing it, it's final round and we'll do this again in a couple of weeks. Thanks very much Marty. Thank you very muchJeff, thanks everybody for listening. Stay safe! Fin fora go y'all live the Tomorrow鬣