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#28 - Let's Talk Playfield Issues

A Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·18m 42s·analyzed·Nov 10, 2020
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.022

TL;DR

Manufacturers won't fix playfield defects until games stop selling out.

Summary

The host discusses ongoing playfield issues (warping, pulling, chipping) affecting recent games like Guns N' Roses and Willy Wonka, arguing that manufacturers won't address these defects unless consumer behavior changes. He frames quality issues as 'minor defects' from an industry perspective since they don't affect gameplay or safety, and explains that companies lack financial incentive to improve as long as games continue selling out. The host emphasizes that only when sales drop or competitors offer superior quality will manufacturers prioritize playfield quality improvements.

Key Claims

  • Playfield pulling issues were documented on Willy Wonka and buyers of Guns N' Roses should have known this was a possibility

    high confidence · Well-documented issues that the community was aware of through podcasts, forums, and online presence

  • From a manufacturing perspective, playfield warping/pulling is classified as a 'minor defect' because it doesn't affect gameplay, safety, or gameplay setup

    high confidence · Industry standard definition: defects don't constitute a priority for fixes unless they drive returns, customer loss, or negative reviews

  • Stern is upwards of 5,000 units behind on Ninja Turtles production due to demand

    medium confidence · Host states 'Stern is upwards of 5,000 pens behind right now' and cites the game as selling 'like crazy'

  • Guns N' Roses are 'way behind' on production due to strong sales

    medium confidence · Host mentions they're selling so many units they're way behind on production

  • The only way manufacturers will change quality practices is if consumer behavior changes and people stop buying games with defects

    high confidence · Repeated throughout episode: 'Until people start talking with their pocketbooks, it won't change'

  • Ninja Turtles had documented coloring issues but still sold exceptionally well

    high confidence · Host cites this as evidence that quality issues don't prevent sales: 'Pens still sold'

  • Collector's Edition and Limited Edition buyers cannot wait to play games before purchasing or they will miss out due to sellouts

    high confidence · Host argues emotional attachment to theme + scarcity forces pre-purchase decisions regardless of quality concerns

  • The host personally experienced playfield pulling on Ninja Turtles around a post area

    high confidence · Personal anecdote: 'I can say personally i have had to deal with a little bit of play field pulling myself on ninja turtles'

Notable Quotes

  • “Until we see people jump off their CE orders, their LE orders, just any order in general, any pre-order, until we see like until a company starts losing money, until their pocketbooks get hurt, nothing changes. Nothing changes.”

    Host (A Pinball Podcast) @ ~13:30 — Core thesis: financial consequences are the only driver of change

  • “Consumer behavior is showing that they're willing to accept these defects as the norm. As the tolerance, maybe norm's not the right word, as their tolerance level that if they happen to have something like this.”

    Host @ ~11:45 — Frames continued purchasing as implicit acceptance of quality issues

  • “Money talks. Money talks. And right now, Jersey Jack has millions of reasons not to fret about it. Stern has millions of reasons not to fret about it.”

    Host @ ~17:00 — Direct statement of financial incentive structure preventing change

  • “The only way that we're really going to move the needle on this, the pinball industry, the only way it's going to truly move the needle on this is if another company comes up And they have superior quality with play fields.”

    Host @ ~14:15 — Identifies competitive quality differentiation as potential disruption mechanism

  • “Fact is, when it comes to LTEs, it comes to collector's editions, you can't wait. You cannot wait. If you are a fan of the theme, you have to put money down, you have to buy before you're playing it, or you won't have it.”

    Host @ ~21:00 — Explains structural constraint preventing informed purchasing decisions for premium tiers

  • “I personally don't think it should be. My personal take on it is I think every single play field should not have polling. I think every single play field should not come with chipping.”

    Host @ ~18:30 — Host's personal quality standard contrasts with his realistic assessment of market incentives

  • “Even if you drop out of a CE, even if you drop out of an LD, somebody else will be right in there to swoop up that spot anyways.”

Entities

Jersey Jack PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyGuns N' RosesgameWilly WonkagameTeenage Mutant Ninja TurtlesgameA Pinball Podcastorganization

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Manufacturer financial incentive structure creates perverse outcome: quality defects persist because games sell out regardless; manufacturers lack economic motivation to address known issues

    high · Host repeatedly states: 'Jersey Jack has millions of reasons not to fret about it. Stern has millions of reasons not to fret about it.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Revenue streams for major manufacturers (Stern, Jersey Jack) are 'up' and 'sky high,' removing financial pressure to improve quality standards

    medium · Host: 'Right now every single company revenue is up it's up it's sky high'

  • ?

    community_signal: Playfield quality issues creating tension between community expectations (perfect product) and manufacturer practices (acceptance of minor defects as tolerable); willy wonka customers still waiting for replacements

    high · Host notes Willy Wonka customers 'that haven't been made whole yet for a new play field' and frames ongoing issues as precedent for Guns N' Roses

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community awareness of playfield quality issues pre-purchase but willingness to buy regardless due to theme attachment and scarcity concerns; FOMO overrides quality concerns

    high · Host notes Guns N' Roses buyers 'knew immediately that play field issues are baked into the cake' due to Willy Wonka precedent; cites continuing strong sales as evidence of acceptance

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Host identifies competitive quality differentiation as the only viable mechanism for change: a competitor offering superior playfield quality could disrupt market if consumers respond with purchasing power

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.056

0:00
All right, welcome back, guys, to another episode of A Pinball Podcast. Thank you guys so much for being here. I really do appreciate it. And we are back with new episodes, finally, as I've gotten through all the ice storms that we had last week. Lost power at my house for over three days. It was horrible. I had to actually interact with my kids. I had to talk to my wife a lot more. It was, God, first world. No. But it was an experience, guys. I literally, we ended up playing a lot of board games, lots of family arguments, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. At least we got each other, I guess. Of course, that's all we needed because we didn't have any electricity. Our phones were basically dead after a couple of days. It was just mass first world problem chaos. But luckily, we're done with it. We're over it. And now it's just basically cleaning up the branches, the trees that are down and all that. But anyhow, while I was on my little sabbatical with all those issues, there seems to be issues that are cropping up right now in pinball. And those issues are play field related. And it's something that I kind of hinted at during my initial Guns N' Roses gameplay review and our hands on review. And I noticed that there might be some issues that would start cropping up. And sure enough, not even 24, 48 hours afterwards, it came to pass that there was play field issues propping up in terms of pulling. And I think even now there might even be some shipping going on. And so, you know, with this episode, I'm going to discuss this a little bit, but from a different perspective, because I'm, you know, here's the direction that I'm going to come from with you guys. It's understanding why this is happening and not from a perspective of why is this happening from a manufacturing standpoint. It's quite frankly, I don't know, but I can tell you why this is still happening and why this won't get fixed. Won't will not get fixed in the way that people wanted to get fixed. And we'll we're going to discuss that. And this is going to be a difficult talk that I know a lot of you guys won't like this. but it's a talk that we need to have because we need to deal in facts and not in feelings on this and i can say personally i have had to deal with a little bit of play field pulling myself on ninja turtles back there it is around one of the post i've seen it on other games as well not games that i own on friends games or games on location and it quite frankly it sucks like i I hate it. I wish it didn't happen. I'm not a fan of it. I'm not one of those that is just like, well, oh, well, it's disappointing. It's disappointing. But at the same time, we need to take a step back and realize why these issues will not get fixed in the way that we want it to get fixed. And there's a reason for that. And one of the big reasons why things will not change is because the variables and actions that are at play right now for consumers, they don't necessitate a need for change from the big company standpoints, from Jersey Jack, from Stern. They don't. And I know right now you're probably screaming at the screen. You're ready to do those downvotes. You're probably screaming to your phones. But I'm going to tell you why it doesn't. And this sucks. Again, this sucks. But I'm talking from their standpoint, and I'm not apologizing for it. I'm giving you guys facts of why this is happening. And I'm telling you the facts of how this will change. The only way to make a change is the question is, is why should they change? Now, of course, we're going to say, well, they should be focused on putting out the perfect product possible for the customer, for everything. And I agree with that, but I'm talking from the standpoint of that people still want the games. It's still selling like hotcakes.

Host @ ~23:45 — Explains why individual consumer action is ineffective against market demand

medium · Host: 'The only way that we're really going to move the needle on this is if another company comes up And they have superior quality with play fields'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern Ninja Turtles production backlog of 5,000+ units; Guns N' Roses way behind on production due to demand exceeding supply

    medium · Host: 'it's documented right now that Stern is upwards of 5,000 pens behind right now' and 'Guns N' Roses, they're way behind right now too because they've sold so many'

  • $

    market_signal: High price point ($7k-$15k) combined with known quality issues creates tension; buyers accept defects because emotional attachment to theme and scarcity dynamics override rational cost-benefit analysis

    high · Host argues that human emotion wins out over logic: 'If somebody desires a theme enough, they're going to overlook and accept the flaws'

  • ?

    product_concern: Playfield warping and pulling documented across recent high-profile releases (Guns N' Roses, Willy Wonka, Ninja Turtles); host argues these are classified as 'minor defects' by manufacturers and won't be prioritized without consumer behavior change

    high · Multiple references to documented playfield issues across games; host notes issues appeared within 24-48 hours of Guns N' Roses hands-on review

    • 4:03
    Their marketing was near perfect. That is getting people to emotionally connect with this theme, with Guns N' Roses. You understand what I'm saying? Because these play field issues that were happening on the Jersey Jack side, it was happening with Willy Wonka. It was well documented. Everybody that bought a Guns N' Roses knew, right? If you have any type of online presence, if you listen to podcasts, you're on Pennside, any type of forum, you know immediately that play field issues are baked into the cake. You know this you know that there a there a chance that this will happen It doesn make it right but what I saying is that you as a buyer you going in with this or even us as buyers I speak for myself as well because I've done the same thing with Stern Games. We all go into buys knowing where our tolerance levels are. And obviously, anybody that's bought a Guns N' Roses that was aware of Willy Wonka play field issues jumped into that with the tolerance, knowing that this was going to be possibly a problem because it was never addressed. It never was properly addressed. It never was said that we guarantee this won't happen. Nothing like that has happened. All right. And you know, here's why this continues happening from a company standpoint. I don't, I can't speak for them, but I can speak for having experience in terms of bringing a product to market and what different defects mean. And we're not going to get too far in the weeds on this. We're just going to stick with just the facts at hand. And the facts at hand are, is that oftentimes the type of defects that we're seeing on these play fields, even though they suck, they're terrible, they're horrible. Fact is, the large majority of these and a large majority of how this is defined is via a minor defect. I know it sucks. It doesn't seem so minor when we buy it, but the issue is, is that it's not changing the gameplay, right? It's not preventing the game from being able to be set up properly. It's not a safety issue, okay? And oftentimes, these quality issues are issues that people may not even notice. They may not even notice. It's undesirable to see, right? But some people may not even notice that. A lot of times, even if you're on location and there's obvious pulling to you, the average person will not notice it. And it sucks, but that's what makes this a minor defect because they're not in danger and it's not affecting the actual gameplay. I'm just telling you what the industry facts are. That's what, that's all we can go off of. I wish none of this would happen. All right. But it is, it is. So we got to deal with the facts and we got to understand where do we go from here that can help change this? Well, you know, here's the problem. With companies, you're going to identify your defects. You always are. You're always aware of what's defective, what is there an issue with, and you have to basically put it in different categories, right? And the only defects that you are really going to focus on, you're really going to make right, really comes from defects that lead to high product returns. They lead to little to no retention of customers. And they pretty much just lead to a bunch of negative reviews and complaints across the board. The majority, right? And the reality is that's not happening. Let's take Guns N' Roses, for instance, guys. Let's take Guns N' Roses again. This is an apology for what they're doing. This is just strictly telling you guys why things are happening the way that they're happening. I'm trying to be the voice of reason here.
    7:52
    If people are not willing to return back their Guns N' Roses game, or any game, this could be any game, if they're not willing to drop out in droves, if these games still keep selling out, then what's going to change?
    8:08
    Consumer behavior is showing that they're willing to accept these defects as the norm. As the tolerance, maybe norm's not the right word, as their tolerance level that if they happen to have something like this.
    8:23
    Okay, that's literally what's happening. Until we see people jump off their CE orders, their LE orders, just any order in general, any pre-order, until we see.
    8:36
    Like until a company starts losing money, until their pocketbooks get hurt, nothing changes. Nothing changes. And why should it? Why should it? If people are still going to be in, why, from their point of view, why would it change? And that's just a fact. And, guys, the only way that we're really going to move the needle on this, the pinball industry, the only way it's going to truly move the needle on this is if another company comes up And they have superior quality with play fields. And the market in the industry or just the market in general the consumer responds to that in such an overwhelmingly positive way with their pocketbooks not just on forums on the keyboard on podcasts on YouTube on anything They have to respond with their pocketbooks. Until that happens, things will not change. All right? And if people can keep saying, hey, that's unacceptable, that's fine. That's fine. This is just the way it is across all industries, across all industries, when you're dealing with any type of product, really any type of product, when you have a minor defect in something, you have certain tolerances that you're willing to accept in X amount or a percentage of your actual overall inventory for a particular product. That's just the way that this works. Okay. It's hard for anybody to shoot for 100% perfection. Okay? Again, the only way we can answer this, the only way it gets changed, the only way is if these games stop selling.
    10:23
    It's if these games stop selling. And they're not going to. They're not going to until we see somebody that is willing to give up their collector's edition on Guns N' Roses, until we see somebody that's willing to give up their limited edition on any Stern that has quality issues. Like Ninja Turtles had the coloring issues.
    10:45
    Pens still sold. It's documented right now that Stern is upwards of 5,000 pens behind right now. I mean, they're selling like crazy. It's shown that Guns N' Roses, they're way behind right now too because they've sold so many.
    11:01
    Again, guys, that's just how it is. That's just how it is, and we need to face that reality. that reality needs to be faced that we can all keep talking until we're blue in the face keep making these demands for things to be better the fact is if we keep buying it if you keep buying it if i keep buying it what's going to change it's just we got to face reality guys it's not going to change, unfortunately. And, you know, I, that's like the, that's the best way that I can put it. That's the best way I can put it. It's just, it sucks. I wish all these pens would come out perfect. I wish that people would not be spending so much money and be worried about what they're getting. They shouldn't be worried about it. That's not how this hobby should be. That's not how any hobby should be, but that's the reality. That's how it is. That's the sandbox that we are all playing in. Okay? And no matter how much we all scream that this isn't acceptable, you know what talks? Money. Money talks. And right now, Jersey Jack has millions of reasons not to fret about it. Stern has millions of reasons not to fret about it.
    12:20
    It's a fact. It is an absolute fact. And so it... It is what it is. Until people start talking with their pocketbooks, it won't change. It will probably be continued to be considered a minor defect and just simply a tolerance, a tolerant defect. And again, sucks. I personally don't think it should be. My personal take on it is I think every single play field should not have polling. I think every single play field should not come with chipping. I think that these things should be addressed. as best as possible. I think that this issue should be alleviated to where it's completely just done. Just nothing like this happening anymore. They're where the play fields come as great as they possibly can. The issue is, again, broken record. It just won't. It won't until we change behavior, until we change consumer behavior, until we change our need to get the shiny new thing. right? And it's been proven, like this whole thing, Guns N' Roses, we can put it to bed right now, the train of thought that wait to play something until you buy it. Fact is, when it comes to LTEs, it comes to collector's editions, you can't wait. You cannot wait. If you are a fan of the theme, you have to put money down, you have to buy before you're playing it, or you won't have it. human desire will take over, right? The only thing that you can legitimately wait on to play is if you waiting on premium models standard models pro models That it That it We can this type of discussion we need to understand what the facts are of the pinball industry. And the facts are, is that human emotion will win out over logic.
    14:15
    It will win out every single time. If somebody desires a theme enough, they're going to overlook and accept the flaws. They may go down kicking and screaming. they may hate the flaws but is it going to be enough though if it's your dream theme if it's a theme you identify with if it's a theme you really want is that really going to be enough to make you not buy it is that really going to be enough to make you not want to own it i don't think it will i don't think it is and i think all this selling out is proof everything selling out is proof so you know that's basically all i just want to talk about and that's all i'm really going to have on this subject there's nothing more that i can say i think it's just a dose of reality that a lot of us need that things will not change i repeat things will not change until people answer as a whole as a majority answer with their pocketbooks because the fact is, even if you drop out of a CE, even if you drop out of an LD, somebody else will be right in there to swoop up that spot anyways. So again, we're just, we're chasing our tails at this point. We're chasing our tails at this point. Now we can all keep demanding better. And I think we should, I think we should, but I think we also need to go in with the understanding that better needs to come or better will not come overnight. Better is going to come over time in terms of them the manufacturers understanding what us the consumers are willing to accept and we can talk all day long they will not change until their pocketbooks get hurt until their revenue streams go down right now every single company revenue is up it's up it's sky high so how do we fix that how do we fix that honestly how do we fix that outside of messages outside of podcasts outside of anything else how does it legitimately change and i don't see it changing unfortunately i don't when i look at all the factors at play i do not see this changing one bit and it's disappointing i i want it to change believe me i i wish every single play field would get would be dimple free. I wish it would look like glass. I wish it would be flawless. I wish the colors would be vibrant. You know, everything. I wish for perfection.
    16:44
    But I'm also buying with the knowledge that that's not going to happen. And I feel like there's thousands of consumers out there that do the same exact thing. It's obvious with Guns and Roses. I would have to think the large majority of people that bought the CEs for Guns and Roses we're well aware of the Willy Wonka play field issues we're well aware that there's still Wonka customers that haven't been made whole yet for a new play field I mean there's nothing more I can say there's absolutely nothing more I can say until consumer behavior changes this won't change just the way it is guys that's the facts don't accept it that's what I'm saying we don't have to sit back and accept it but that's what's got to change But other than that, though, guys, that's all I got from here. This just sounded like just a broken record podcast, but that's all I got because I know a lot of people are going to have different opinions on it, different ways. People are going to be very passionate about it, and I am passionate about it. Don't get me wrong. I'm passionate about quality control, but I'm realistic. I'm very realistic when it comes to understanding the human nature of a consumer and how a manufacturer or how a company reacts to that I'm curious to see how it goes I mean it'd be interesting but I don't know if we'll get any reaction out of Jersey Jack I don't know if we'll get any reaction out of Stern in terms of them actually saying anything or just trying to make these subtle changes or you know what I mean these little changes behind closed doors to where you start seeing different play fields come out or different versions of what you're seeing different little fixes and changes other than that though guys we something's something's got to give eventually and hopefully it will at some point but that's basically all i'm going to say on this issue there's not much more else to say until consumer behavior change this won't change that's all i got though guys you guys take care