Triple Drain debates Godzilla B&W Premium pricing strategy and collector psychology around cosmetic variants.
Summary
Triple Drain Ep 53 features Joel, Tom, and Travis (late to record) discussing Stern's new Godzilla Black & White Premium edition, its pricing strategy relative to the Limited Edition, and the secondary market implications for collectors. They debate whether cosmetic re-releases discourage immediate purchases, explore speaker light kits and expression lights as accessories across Stern games, and discuss player perception of dynamic machine feedback.
Key Claims
Godzilla Black & White Premium is $4,000 cheaper than the Limited Edition but uses nearly identical artwork
high confidence · Tom states the price differential and notes the art is the same but desaturated
Stern said they'll keep producing Godzilla Black & White 'as long as there's demand' with no limited production window
high confidence · Travis references Gomez's promo video statement; implies unlimited production
John Wick has AI-driven enemy placement that blocks shots based on game progression
medium confidence · Tom and Joel discuss alleged AI behavior; Joel explicitly states 'I haven't verified that' and 'that's what we've been told'
There were Jaws connected badges/achievements during Fourth of July week requiring specific gameplay (e.g., 500 harpoons)
high confidence · Joel describes participating in a Jaws badge challenge during Fourth of July week
John Wick LE contracts sold out immediately after Travis left work from filming
high confidence · Travis shows screenshot of sold-out contract; states it sold out 'as soon as I left work'
Godzilla Black & White will have a 'longtail' sales pattern because thousands of colored versions already exist in the market
high confidence · Travis argues existing inventory will slow adoption; expects sales to extend into Q3/Q4
Stern announced speaker light kits for Jaws and John Wick, with plans to include them in future games
high confidence · Joel and Travis discuss speaker lights as standard accessories moving forward on Stern titles
Tom recorded a second John Wick launch party strategy video after the code update
high confidence · Travis states he filmed another strategy earlier in the week after the podcast
Notable Quotes
“as long as there's demand we'll keep putting it out”
Gomez (Stern)@ 15:57 — Indicates unlimited production for Black & White, removing time-based FOMO
“I'm getting to a point where like I don't want to buy The Limited Editions anymore because I don't know if in a couple years they're going to come out with an addition I might actually want to buy for a cheaper price tag”
Tom@ 13:20 — Articulates collector hesitation caused by re-release strategy; suggests chilling effect on LE purchases
“if you base your today decision on what ifs sure you're always going to be spinning your wheels right”
Joel@ 21:00 — Pushes back on analysis paralysis from waiting for future variants
“it's going to be a longtail sell it just is”
Travis@ 15:00 — Predicts slow adoption of Black & White due to existing colored inventory
“I haven't verified that... I haven't verified that there's AI built into the game on the Node boards or anything”
Joel@ 5:51 — Casts doubt on John Wick AI claims; marks as unverified rumor despite industry discussion
“so I think people are going to wait a little bit and the people that want to get the black and white well if they already have right the color version they still got to resell that game right”
Travis@ 23:46 — Identifies secondary market friction and resale burden for collectors trading up
product_strategy: Stern releasing Godzilla Black & White Premium at $4,000 discount to LE with nearly identical art; unlimited production with no FOMO
high · Tom: 'it's almost the exact same artwork as the limited edition but it's just not colored' and '$4,000 cheaper price tag'; Travis: 'as long as there's demand we'll keep putting it out'
$
market_signal: Cosmetic re-releases are chilling Limited Edition demand and creating purchase paralysis among collectors who now fear cheaper variants
high · Tom: 'I'm getting to a point where like I don't want to buy The Limited Editions anymore because I don't know if in a couple years they're going to come out with an addition'; Joel acknowledges this creates hesitation
$
market_signal: Existing colored Godzilla inventory will create resale burden; collectors must liquidate at potential loss to fund Black & White upgrade
high · Travis: 'they all like I know spoiler alert all the ones out there right now have color on it so that means pretty much that the options are those current customers either have to offload that game'
?
product_strategy: Shift from limited production (FOMO-driven) to unlimited on-demand cosmetic variants; removes time urgency from purchasing decisions
high · Travis cites Gomez: 'as long as there's demand we'll keep putting it out'; contrasts with JP 30th and Elvira Blood Red which had artificial scarcity
?
gameplay_signal: Unverified claims circulating about AI-driven enemy placement in John Wick that blocks shots based on progression; hosts express skepticism
Topics
Godzilla Black & White pricing strategy and consumer psychologyprimarySecondary market impact of unlimited cosmetic re-releasesprimaryJohn Wick code updates and gameplay strategyprimaryStern Insider Connected badge/achievement system engagementsecondarySpeaker lights and expression lights as premium accessoriessecondaryLimited Edition vs Premium vs cosmetic variants strategyprimaryCollector upgrade hesitation and purchase paralysissecondaryAftermarket mod ecosystem and cosmetic customizationmentioned
Sentiment
mixed(0.55)— Hosts acknowledge Stern's strategic competence (Insider Connected, engagement) and game quality, but express frustration with cosmetic re-release strategy that creates collector uncertainty. Tom explicit about dampened enthusiasm for Limited Editions due to potential cheaper variants. Joel balances criticism with acceptance of business logic. Generally constructive but with clear concern about market erosion.
Transcript
youtube_auto_sub · $0.000
[Music] the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast Tom Jo um it is 10:24 uh eastern time it's 9:25 yeah and when did when would when was the start time uh 9:00 9: so 24 minutes 24 25 25 minutes we've been sitting here and uh waiting on Travis Travis yep and uh why cuz his uh mixer wasn't working technical difficulties shocker Y and he finally got it working and so we go to start and what does Travis do he's got to go get a cup of coffee he leaves he leaves and goes and gets coffee because you know your time my time the listener's time yeah who cares right right exactly but he could probably hear all this right now yeah he's probably taking a big dump too cuz he just doesn't care well we'll we'll hear it if he flushes right I would hope he knows how to mute a mic right now but maybe not so um I'm just G to start you feeling good Tom I'm feeling good I'm feeling pretty good all right here we go guys like so we came up with a CL our name we Jo and Travis ball we call ourselves triple drink triple drink triple drink we're triple trip we are back we oh two we are we are two of the three two jez he must be grinding those beans you know maybe does over think he's practicing need to practice he always drinks green tea so maybe he doesn't know how to make coffee maybe he's calling Monica to say Monica how do I do this you know probably a CG too it's probably the K Cup oh Lord all right he's or he's just standing right off camera and he's just you know waiting but um I don't know we're here and hey to all the listeners that are here and click clicked on it thanks for clicking on it um it's been a month it's been a month this is probably the longest I don't know break we've had in a while it wasn't planned it just kind of happened there's just no news there was there was it was a combination of uh holidays I had some work track travel uh and no no real news nothing nothing crazy to report and so um I started to get a few messages you know like is triple drain dead what's going on no I don't think so no we just uh you know it's probably because I was releasing uh videos Tom s's own content yeah um which was good so but I don't know we're here or at least you and I are here Tom I appreciate correct yes um I app I appreciate you too Joel thanks thanks um well let's talk about a little bit of your content Tom wa wait hold on that schmuck look at this guy he's always gonna go play a game of pinball oh there he is there he is are we live oh yeah we sure are we've already played the song we've already done all of it how's your coffee uh it's fine I had to call Monica and see how the uh thing works yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah all right we are here we are here um all right let's talk about your content um I Tom has become a reaction video type of guy that's and you know and I love it he's got his his thumbnail the there's an art to the thumbnail you know you got to get your face on there got you gota act what you know there's the thing you got to pluck out the gray hairs and your beard that hey thumbnail is a thing cuz Travis every every pinball company video here releases he shows us about eight different thumbnails I say us it's us and the loser kid guys and he's like which one which one would you click on my answer is none of all of them none of them there's a method to the madness to see what the CTR is and all that uh click through rate that's what that is for people yeah click through rate so uh I assume the listeners are much smarter than I am so they they know what's up I think he just says numbers assuming that people or just letters just say some letters and it makes you sound smart yeah something will stick right yeah yeah but you're um I Know You released and it got a lot of clicks uh what was it Travis You released a John Wick like launch party tutorial is any idea if that's still accurate uh with the latest code release it is a little bit I actually recorded another one CU there's legitimately like three different strategies to it okay but I only went over one and so I have the other one that I recorded earlier this week we can even with the code update it's still the same thing so I actually got to film that or the audio after this podcast and get it up later today that way everybody can win it works too see look your audio no the Str strategy Works Joel see this have you ever won one of these Joel sure haven't sure haven't dang it I told you you need to challenge your family to a tournament I'll make the trophies for you it's been a while since I played Wick um but I do know uh I think it was you that actually brought to my attention that one of the things that the code uh AI right AI is placing enemies in front of you based off of your progression of the game to get your we've been told that's we've been told right that's what we've been told yeah I haven't verified it's all a lie I haven't verified that there's AI built into the game on the Node boards or anything so I don't know well I mean they move so that's is a that's something is there a chat G GPT or whatever Stern GP that needs to be something where you ask it a question and it tells you the answer immediately like how to do this shot or what is this or what is this mode but that would mean a microphone is now built in your pinball machine which people would be freaking out about um but my question what you what you had brought to my attention was the fact that you know to get through a mode let's say the mode takes eight shots but if all of a sudden a bunch of enemies are now in front of you the enemy you can't you can't actually hit that shot or the shot doesn't count until you get rid of enemies right so some of these modes can become drastically harder um because of this enemy and this enemy type progression that's blocking your path and I had never I didn't really consider that I honestly when I had the game I don't know if I ever beat a mode I don't even know if you could beat a mode at the time um but I don't know how do you work around that I mean what uh is that fun is that well so for the newest strategy that I use it's um you essentially you just lean into using the enemies you don't even worry about them you want them out there now okay which sounds weird but essentially there's so there's jobs right which are your modes okay that are attached to the factions and then you have adversaries which are basically your solo battles but you have to get to 16 enemies defeated in order to qualify those right y y so naturally if you got to defeat enemies well you know then why does it matter if they're out there so then it becomes working backwards and picking the jobs in which the most enemies are out there yet it has the most scoring available right and it's the safest shots that you can do so overwhelmingly that's Roma which is a center ramp yellow mode attached to or it's the job is assassination I'm already confused so job how do you change job to get to that it's just the shots like any major shot Prett much changes the job so before you hit the crate to start your job basically before you go into the scoop you want to make sure you've hit the center ramp Center ramp was the last shot you you hit yeah I I mean there's some some of the other jobs like they score just fine but ideally it's your Cent ramp job and your right orbit job so it's Roma and the Marquee Chris Granner whatever it's called so it's the jobs I know it gets confusing but it's simply put jobs have their own names like assassination gather Intel those are two main ones those jobs are attached to factions which are shown on the inserts on the Playfield so those are essentially the only two you really need to know okay because it's hard to survive anyways or stay alive so you know you might as well play the ones that give you the most bang for your buck and so rusara it's just enemies everywhere like I think I count damn Tom smth it's too much about do what's in your coffee oh yeah sure it's Boba and he didn't know it just to keep it purely simple so that way Tom doesn't like die on us just play rusara cuz I found it has like 10 or 13 enemies right off the bat somewhere around there it might be like 11 12 so you're saying don't even are you even focusing on progressing through the mode or you're just you're just using it to hit enemies I do but I don't like I want to get my enemies but in that mode as soon as you knock down the enemy yeah if the yellow insert still lit then that's your target to assassinate yeah and then that's where all your points are at and it just like the points just keep going and going and then of course if you never miss a shot and you just play the ramps mode just combo ramps the whole entire time like that's literally the two things that you do I wouldn't even do anything else as it is don't do anything else Tom is showing us that did you get your contracts no I've have not gotten any contracts I had a couple I went for it I don't have a this was limed to 200 people you didn't get it it's red I did it says earned gota look close it's saw closed that contract literally came out as soon as I left work after filming on Wick it knew yeah I was halfway thinking should I really turn around and go back to work you should play but hey what is that though what does that tell you about connected like there's I got to give props I know yeah it's addicting Ben addicted Ben was the guy that talked to us at the stern tour he's The Insider connected guy shout out to you Ben I know you're listening there's the addiction is real because I know I had Jaws during the week uh Fourth of July week so there were all those jaws back bges and it's like you know one of the badges was uh shooting a gazillion harpoons like 500 haro's message shooting 500 harpoons over the course of the week and it's like it's a fun little mode but I would never play that mode that many times during a week but I want to do just get that little badge and um you know it's like oh quick shots I need to get 10 of those let me pay attention let me focus on those um it's what a creative way to force you to try to play the game in a different you know or focused on different areas of the game than you're used to um so I I know we come off as Stern shills pretty much every episode but um they're doing something right with Insider connected it's well it gives you a reason to play the game too and to play it differently and that's the key to longevity you need user turn around your car and go back to work to play the game you know I was just going to make more content don't worry about Jo it it wasn't for pleasure yeah it was it was to make money well okay making money making content Tom made a reaction video to Godzilla's black and white so let's just go around real I mean what are our thoughts on that 're reaction to Tom's reaction video is that what we're doing right now we should play it we should play Tom's reaction video to react to his reaction I haven't got a chance to watch it yet was it good did you do a good job Tom it was terrible it was good uh I mean Tom you want to summarize your your I mean you want to summarize your re I mean I was basically like premium came out it's all Sil it's all gray toned um I I have some issues with it but I understand why Stern's doing it it's to make money what's your issue um I don't really like the fact that one it's almost the exact same art work as the limited edition but it's just not colored um my my other issue is because it limited even though it's not it's also at a what $4,000 cheaper price tag than a limited edition so you know I'm getting to a point where like I don't want to buy The Limited Editions anymore because I don't know if in a couple years they're going to come out with an addition I might actually want to buy for a cheaper price tag yeah so it's it just I like I said I understand why they're doing it um but you know as a consumer I'm kind of like well maybe maybe I don't need to rush into buying these things so then here's the question then if that's what it's leading you to think then what if would you feel the same way if you were a premium buyer and that's all you were getting instead of if you're just getting premiums only yeah because maybe I wanted the Black and White Edition and now now I have to sell my colored one to get the black and white right so you still F the same art package obviously let's ask this then if the three of us were in the market to buy a premium Godzilla today would you be placing an order for the normal colored version or would you be getting the Black and White Version and here's the thing I would not I I'm not big on the black and white so to me no but what about you Travis I'm in between I really like the look of it but I'm also really lazy and don't want to pull my machine upstairs up the basement so that's what I'm saying if we if if our no collection you don't own a Godzilla and you're you're a new buyer I'm ready to buy I'm a new buyer ready to buy a Godzilla pre oh yeah brand new yeah like black and white probably I'm a brand new buyer I mean it's the weird part with this machine it's going to be a longtail sell it just is because one it's one of the best selling games of all time let alone just Sterns like just of all time it's a great machine so there's thousands out there already which means they all like I I know spoiler alert all the ones out there right now have color on it so that means pretty much that the options are those current customers either have to offload that game sell it right against the competition of their of now the other option being black and white but they got to sell it in order to go get a black and white enjoy the enjoy the hit on your purchase right so that's kind of like that's kind of where everybody's at so that's why I think that this is going to be like a longtail thing and especially now it's not limited in any sort of way there's no time release there's no limited production it's just all like even Gomez said on the promo video right as long as there's demand we'll keep putting it out so there's really no rush to come out and get it at this point so it's like what's stopping somebody from just even sitting on their color version right and waiting for a used black and white version now well you know I I think that there's just ways I I think that the end consumer is going to get very Savvy when it comes to these different models with how to get one if they truly want one that's what we'll see I mean the cabinet the cabinet the actual like foil yeah I mean that that's awes yeah I think the game looks dope it looks cool Jo wouldn't you wouldn't you have wanted the foil on your colored version so if I answer yeah if I answered that question if I had no Godzilla right now and I was going to place a new order I would I would go black and white and the only reason I go is it's just it's Unique I think it would stand out in a collection just like when I had Um Zack let me borrow the elvar blood red kiss Edition I was just going to say what if you had a BL kiss if I did know I would probably then it would become a I don't I don't need new I don't need two black and white with red highlight games right next to each other well to be fair too the blood red elvir is spectacular there's there's not many games that look like that and I've I've heard that even from all the previous elvir adopters that they're like holy crap Travis that's kind of the same story I was talking about I mean you you know how many versions of elvir were there you had the premium and the LA keep buying them there's a lot there's a lot you're absolutely right I think it's one of right right and I think it's clear that the strategy is keep using the license as you can and figure out a way to kind of make it new but still the same and as a manufacturer and a distributor I totally get that but as a collector and a consumer that's where I my issue lies I guess right I think that's a good issue to have I mean it's great feedback to give I think it is important for the people that are spending money on these products to speak up because I mean Stern's been clear they're going to listen you know I think a lot of pinball manufacturers out there want to listen to the consumer because obviously they're going to guide decision making at at the highest level in terms of like what themes to give or go get what type of models to put out so you know I think any feedback is good at this point what about um Tom have you ever had a game that then was vaulted and then like were you were you in a position where you own the original Iron Man and then they release Iron Man Vault and did you have to play that and did you play the game of like wait do I should I should I upgrade should I upgrade should I and what' you do in that situation I did not upgrade and why like what was the justification I didn't I didn't feel the need to okay I I was you know yeah I I already bought it it's almost the exact same game with with the exception of the magnets yep um I mean I guess I could have took a drill and put a put a bigger magnet in there but uh I wasn't going to do that but no I just I just felt like you know what I'm not I'm I'm just gonna be happy with what I have which is fine too yeah and I was I was in the same boat with TNA I mean I have an original TNA and when they released that when they announced that they were going to do a new run with like new cosmetic stuff better screen better backbox hinge like or um the drop down panel for the screen is is different like I had that thing of like I love my TNA I've got it dialed in I got it all the mods or everything I've done all all the Cosmetic stuff that they are adding in the new version I've already added manually but I was still very Cur like this is the better version should I this is a keeper pin for me should I be upgrading so I get it um I I totally I totally get it and I also understand why Stern is doing it but you've said Stern is listening I will tell you right now spoiler alert I'm really considering getting a Jaws I I love Jaws I've really enjoyed that game that's great but I know I'm not getting an Le they're gone so to me it's like I'm I some at some point I need to get a premium do I feel that I'm in a rushit three years yeah well that's the thing it's like do I feel like I'm in a rush that I have to get a premium as soon as possible no but then you get these type of re-releases or new cosmetic releases and it almost makes me wonder like is there a chance that down the road they would do a a new Jaws art package and maybe I would prefer that one over the premium that I would get I think that's a great question the problem though yeah if you if you base your today decision on what ifs sure you're always going to be spinning your wheels right because there's always a new game coming out from a manufacturer like Stern has three cornerstones a year yep you got Jersey Jack putting out games you got spooky putting out games so you know I I think that the whole wait and see thing is just kind of like it's just up to you like how you want to approach it but you know facing facts wait and see usually usually leads to just waiting and perpetuity because then the next shiny thing comes out and then you're kind of Frozen still like well should I get this and then the next thing comes out and then you're like well should I get this yeah and that's kind of I don't know it's just like U it paralyzes a consumer when they get in that Vortex right as opposed to if you really like the game and it's available now why not just get it now enjoy it and then when you don't want it any longer sell it simple as that now now if you're totally it by money right on your money purchase and all that again probably not the right hobby for you in terms of getting new inbox pins because it's you might as well do day trading because it's it's hard to tell like up and down right it's just right it's very hard to tell and I think there's a lot of people that came into the Hobby in 2020 that were used to everything just going nuts like every Le would gain value premiums would gain value because you know this there wasn't enough Supply going out that's typic Al not the case can exactly can you answer whether or not like are these selling well have you have you got orders have you seen Travis is there has have what the Godzilla selling one the Godzilla black it's just like I said so I'm not going to give exact orders but I will say it's going to take a while are you buying go car I was are your kids going to college that's the question yeah all right no well my question was reality though for the for the reasons I stay it there's so many out there already and there's not going to be extreme fomo up front for this to for somebody to feel like yeah because it's not JP 30th or or elvar blood red kiss right and that was the L lose situation that stern was going to be in regardless cuz remember what happened with Jurassic Park like those still sold out but yet everybody else lost their mind yeah about it so now on the other side they their answer to that is these anniversary editions don't have it limited well if it's not limited that means you're going to affect the behavior of who's purchasing these as well that's I mean that's just what happens so I think people are going to wait a little bit and the people that want to get the black and white well if they already have right the color version they still got to resell that game right to get the funds to get the space that's going to take time that yeah it's like you're not going to see 2,000 Godzilla premiums go up for sale and then they all sell instantly in order to get the Black and Whites right I think it's going to take a little while into quarter 3 quarter 4 you you know what I would I think would be cool is like if you could buy like the little Godzilla model that's gray and put it in your colored game um you know do things like that but be cool or apparently I mean they're going to release the topper in black and white apparently all the art blades tell you what's comical is once I saw I once I saw the game one of my first thoughts was what about the mods like I have every stumbler mod in my game you can kind of see right there by my shoulder like that's the burning Subway mod um every single stumbler mod I have in the game and I'm thinking like shoot is Davey gonna remake or like sell you know like instead of the the the main board like would he sell a black and white version of the Tokyo sign just the plastics for the people that already have you know or like I don't know I know Diddy Diddy mods he's already announced that he's remaking his in black and white versions um and that's kind of crazy like I have the speaker lights um from Doug at speaker light kits like those are awesome but would that look cool on black and white I don't know speaking of speaker lights the fact that jaws now has Speakers by Stern Wick now has Speakers by Stern they've made it very clear that they're going to have the speaker lights probably in every game moving forward are they going to go backwards because I'll tell you right now as much as I love these if I can have speaker lights that interact with with Godzilla I'm I'm getting those I mean is it worse St maybe that's a question for you guys do you think it would be worse st's time to pay somebody to code in additional light shows in previous games to sell that accessory 100% does it move more units move which unit does it move more accessories yes does it move more games does it make money yes well if it makes money and it's profit then yeah I would say it's probably worth it well may well you know like there's there was a huge demand for expression light kits for I mean I still think they're not technically in stock at most Distributors like there's there is a demand for additional Light Show mods but I don't know the profit margin I don't know what Stern's profit margin is on on expression light kits or speaker they haven't even sold technically the speaker light kits yet so is that is it worth like I think they'd sell a lot of them but is that is that worth their I don't know I'm not the um I feel like this would have been a great question to ask during our Stern visit a couple months ago well they didn't at that time they hadn't really talked about that they were going to sell that as an accessory they said they were going to sell it for for Wick so to me yes I think anything you can put on a machine that makes it more useful for somebody to enjoy is worth exploring now whether it's worth it from a monetary standpoint I don't know like it's it's hard to say just because obviously you got to buy and bulk you got to decide okay what's what's your worker's time worth what's and all that so right that's all business stuff but if the end user likes it and it's something that appeals to them and it's something that causes them to see a pro in terms of buying the product then yeah that's worth exploring well yeah I think it's I mean honestly if if they announc that they would consider it or do that I I don't know I mean I have speaker like kits in all my games I don't currently have one in in Black Knight because I'm borrowing it I know Tom is look at his back row so it's like once you step into that Realm it kind of when a pin doesn't have it it looks odd and so you know I I know Doug speaker like kits that's what he does I know pin woofer now is in the lighting game musel mods is in the lighting game like yeah it's interesting because I've actually talked to a few people that played the wick Le and because there's one on location that's nearby right so it has like the whole like during one of the scenes the Shaker motor will go nuts with the gunshots and all that and it flashes mhm and so like I think that that's really cool like I like that type of interaction and then I talked to a lot of other people and they had no idea that that was what was happening like over it was it was so funny I had a good laugh about this there was multiple people that thought the machine was malfunctioning CU they're like I'm just playing and I'm hitting a post and now the machine's just the shit's just shaking out of it and it's flashing everywhere I don't know what's going on I'm like oh should have told added switches to posts yeah just like yeah I was like that's the dynamic gunshot or whatever so yeah it's it's kind of like it's one of those things that almost if you know it's coming it's interesting but if you don't realize that that's what's happening I could see how all of a sudden it's kind of jarring that the machine's just like shaking to death and you're just like I don't feel like I'm doing anything but apparently the machine is saying I'm doing a lot but that's kind of like what what the feedback was initially that I was getting from people I and I get it I I know what they're doing with Wick is unique this this the fact that the speaker lights and the expression lights are reacting to the movie clip not necessarily to your gameplay see they should have put that on Godzilla 70th every time it hits that little pop Godzilla just Roars well I'll tell you right now if they would if Godzilla 70th had expression lights I'm kidding Tom that they shouldn't do that if they would have done something like that Ser go ahead I'm saying if if for Godzilla if the Godzilla 70th would have had expression lights I would really be tempted to to like that really would have consider does it need expression lights doesn't need it no it doesn't need it doesn't need it like I still I still associate expression lights with like a concert in a box in Wick it kind of makes sense just because of the scenes the VAR scenes have unique lighting and everything with something like Godzilla I think it's a I just think it's an immersive I think it adds just like color GI like the fact that I think it adds a lot I think it really changes I mean even so Cactus Canyon Cactus Canyon has color GI but when you're in different when you're playing different modes the whole GI color changes sure I don't have a crazy light show like G&R or something but it's just like this mode feels different than that mode and why is that it's the lighting and so that's why is that on the Playfield though directly and not on the sides it it is but if if in until Stern goes to RGB GI which they've never done as far as I know all they if they have color GI it's because like Godzilla has white bulbs and red bulbs so there's times where only the red are on and there's times that only white I know Star Wars had like white red and blue like but these are separate bulbs until Stern creates a RGB bulb like all Jersey Jack games have have R of color uh RGB lights I think most spooky games do I mean but I I know Sterns views probably and how easy is it to track doing in those games if all of a sudden you're mode all your GI is blue it's a lot harder to see the ball if there's no white light on so I so that's I get why Stern is saying great that's what expression lights for but I do genuinely feel that the change of lighting does change the mood of whatever you're doing so if if Godzilla if they were to add speaker lights that reacted to the game to me it's like just do a burning pattern for a track mode make them flash red every time your red GI flashes and then maybe just have the lights be different color when you're in different modes or maybe do Jaws does where the chum line is showing progression so you can see a similar progression because every mode has you know gin eight shots so maybe have the speaker light change for every shot you hit you know it's like there's simple things you could do for some of these previous games I think something like that would you as a player would that make a difference like would you be able to tell that the speaker lights are doing something not a player that is a trick question well I'm just saying like somebody that's standing off to the side just kid but if you're actually engaged with the game and you're tracking a ball does the lights going off like up here out of your view like it's in your peripheral still but does that affect like how much you're enjoying it because it's just kind of like for me if I'm wanting to design pinball and I'm thinking of cool things to add on I'm trying to think of ways that I can make somebody that's currently playing how to make their experience even better and that's that's why I'm like always like about the LCD movie clips just because it's it's hard to track so I'm thinking of related to going to like a concert or a movie you know or something like that you know where like do you want mono sound or you want stereo sound do you want you know it could be the the best artist in the world but if they're not you know if there's not like flashy lights and stuff like that you know it's just more it's just more immersive so what we need to develop then guys nobody else like everybody else paused the podcast right now so you don't hear of this great idea we need to develop and have it out by tpf 2025 like the immersive like light system for Sterns to where you just attach it at the top of the box you drape it over yourself it's blacked out has lights just what I will say we're not we're not going that crazy my TNA million dollar idea Tom my TNA I ATT tapped into the speaker lights and I actually put rails on the back at my game so if I play TNA with the lights off my entire room changes colors based on where and I know okay I'm yellow that means I'm want I need to hit the scoop to start the reactor oh I'm red I mean like the whole room changes color so that's a little dramatic but I also know Travis you're the extreme where you can play a Star War a stranger things premium and not know it's a premium because you don't actually look at the projector when you you've admitted when you you play you're only looking at the front the first half of the Playfield like all of your measurements and alignments you align to the art and the inserts on the first half the play field I I look at things like if I'm trying to play a game I will look at things that matter to the game play for me like what's going to change the ball path what's going to light up where are the flippers at where are the post at where are the rubbers at like those are things that I hone in on now other people they may look at stuff like oh cool artwork oh there's a projector and that's perfectly fine it's just not something that I actively look for that being said the last time I played the stern or a stranger things premium I knew it is a premium because we have one set up in our showroom and I know it's a premium there you because that's but that I know you've you've admitted that before that you just don't you don't notice some of these things but I think in this it's like do you look at the artwork on a ramp like how often do we do that every time I hit the freaking ramp I'm watching the ball you stare at the art yeah you're watching the ball not the artwork but it's there but okay so ramp is one art is one thing but lighting is just like it it drastic like maybe this okay when on the ball when you're playing jaws now now they make it where when you're in night swim the whole GI dims down you notice that right even though you're looking at the ball you notice it's darker right yeah so lighting does affect black and white games for everybody of course lighting affects everything because lighting guides you as a player we're talking about but you're you're saying if it's talking projector screen no I'm saying what are you talking about backbox speaker lights you're saying would have zero impact on your play experience well yeah because the pinball is underneath the glass not up on the the backbox it it wouldn't affect me at all like well Tom Tom jaw it has speaker lights do they affect your play while you play at all no I'm not looking at them Tom I tell you're on my team here Jo you got to remember but but you'll learn this Joel will figure this out Tom that that stuff on you know the LCD and and that is is more for the group of three that are that are in your group watching you play I mean to be honest um I know this might be shocking Joel when you play Pinball yeah you watch the pinball yeah and you watch it move around I will say since I got the Jaws topper I have actually looked up to look at the Jaws topper though the Jaws what is it doing what is it doing it's awesome but that's the key though if you are GNA add in topper stuff and you're going to add in lights then you have to automatically do something in your game with what the layout allows and you have to make the rules surround around having the ball stop CU then you're creating that moment in time for somebody to stop watching the ball and it directs their attention somewhere else whether it's on the speaker lights or on the topper because if all that stuff's going off and you're not able to even look at it for even if it's like three seconds yeah right CU it's like those are decisions that got to be made and that's what makes it tough like to give a prime example this indisk 2020 Tom might remember this that black knight there had the topper on and this was indisk 2020 so January of like four years ago yeah when I was at the old uh Museum right and I know I played that game four times didn't even realize it had a Topper I talked to other people like to cool and you're like what topper right like yeah like 80% of the players even realize the topper was on there now it's not saying like that doesn't take anything away from it it's just if you're in a situation where you're so focused on one instance of a ball moving and of course in a world championship hopefully you're watching the ball and not looking up at the topper but yeah it's just that just shows you like human nature you're going to track what's moving and you're going to track with where your attention's at like it would be cool I don't even know if this is possible if a ball stops in the in Lane like maybe like on Jaws right that post comes up the ball stops and the GI like lead your eyes to follow all the way up to the topper then the topper does something like I don't know if any game's ever done something like that I don't even know if it's possible you could yeah I okay so I I will agree with you that yes while you're in the middle of gameplay I mean Tom has admitted it he's got the speaker lights on Jaws you're not while you're actively playing the game you're probably not going to see those speaker lights maybe if he turned all the lights off in his room and that was the only game on maybe there would be some residual lighting coming off of that that would impact him maybe but I do think expression lights I do think expression lights because of how much they are because it's in the ACT it's in the game it's in the game that is that makes an impact just like color changing GI and jjp games or the hot rails in jjp games or the color GI in Cactus Canyon or some of the other cgc like there can be an impact I I I totally get that um but I just I don't know to me may maybe this Bridges us into the conversation of just pinball enthusiasts I think there's a lot of people that that the game play is actually one of the Lesser reasons they own the game like they own the game because of the theme the way it looks like the way it makes their their arcade room I mean Tom if if if Stern did that if they made back backwards compatibility for every one of those Stern games behind you how many of those kits would you buy probably for the speaker lights oh for the speaker lights oh yeah I would I would buy them I mean honestly I probably would but that's and that's just this this it's an a it's an aesthetic thing 100% 100% but I just I think what's interesting I think the m a lot of the pinball podcasts out there there are people like yourselves that are tournament focused or they're streamers they play a lot or they're people that are just active pinball players but I'm meeting more and more let's call them you've enthusiasts just people that just love pinball and if you try to have a conversation to them about code or what's your favorite mode what I mean it's just they just don't care they just don't care and I'm starting to really appreciate it like they just it's almost this just sense of like what I like about pinball is that feeling of just watching the ball fly around Travis and I care we care about the code well yeah we do but we talked about this I think like a couple of podcasts ago after the wick Ellie thing and all that said top two things were art and is it just theme theme and art those are the two things up front every single time I mean just put it this way if if code was really that important in terms of getting somebody to adopt day one right don't you think like every single manufacturer would put a premium on that to have it so fleshed out at the beginning of it like I know there's obviously barriers and different reasons for the code being at various stages yeah you know and there has to be a use afterwards of seeing how it works in the real world but you know it's obvious that the things that are fully fleshed out as soon as a game releases is a theme right and the art like those are the two things overall yeah well okay so code let's actually talk about this game behind me Black Knight sort of Rage um Zach swapped out Jaws which honestly my brother my whole family love Jaws my dad told me he's like I have Turtles over there right now he's like if you want to get Jaws and swap out Turtles with jaws I'd be okay with it Joel's dad's like don't bring your golf cart to me anymore son to get Jaws my dad who's not a pinball guy but it's just they've really killed it with the just the theme immersion just the overall the there's something about that dreary that just gets you my mother-in-law had a great time on it um that that experience of hitting the fin when it pops up you know building shoot it now now like they've really done a great job were they commenting well why doesn't jaw eat the ball no never never happened never happened um but it's I I really really really love and enjoy that game and and my brother and I streamed it a handful of times uh Zach gave us a Topper I have a stream out there with the topper cam the topper is actually awesome um I get it it's expensive but for what it is the light shows are there's some really good light show integration another thing they pointed out is uh it changes based on the time of day same with just the background screen the the the the clip of the boat just in water that changes on the LCD during the day so if you play at night it's a picture of the boat at night which I mean that's clever so the lighting changes um it's just it's very well done and Elizabeth was on the streams with us and explained the code but what my brother admitted is as much fun as we've had during that game he's like you know sometimes I just Pinball's so complex that it's just like he gets overwhelmed he gets overwhelmed and i' I've had that feeling as well you know when when I've had coders on to explain a game where you know they're so excited about these these these little things that they've added and well if you do this and this and this and this and this and this and this um sometimes it's just fun to just turn on a game and play it and immediately know what to do immediately understand it and just play the game and that's that's what we've experienced with black knight Black Knight I tried to find some tutorial videos out there there's not a ton um but what I've realized is you can explain this game very quickly and so for us on stream one we stepped up and just kind of immediately knew what to do with chat helping us out with a few minute like small things it was really it was like a breath of fresh air it was just nice to just play it get our butts kicked but have a good time and so I think it's funny that a lot of people talk about monsters being super easy or like the code just being so small nobody says that about I mean maybe I'm just not hearing them nobody says that about Black Knight but I feel like from a code standpoint no no offense Timmy or anybody it's just the code here is very simple it's very simple it's very I watched Eric Stone beat the game beat the game defeat the Black Knight he did it in like 10 minutes you can't do that on Godzilla you can't beat like maybe you can maybe I don't know but it's like you can't like beat Every Beat every bad guy in the game 10 minutes nobody I am I missing something do in the tournament scene or do people talk about the this game being shallow ever or too simple I mean I don't think I've ever heard Black Knight called Simple on the tournament scene I mean I I get it like from a rule set point of view it may not be as complex or deep but if it's set up right it's like you're not even going to get to the end regard the brutality of it yeah yeah yeah it's I mean it's just one of those things like it plays quick it plays like a modern solid state to me that's kind of the way it feels but I will tell you the stream ended and my brother was like I loved that he's like I really had a lot of fun with that game and I was like well if I could call up Zack right now would you rather me get Black Knight or Jaws premium and he goes black knight I was like that what what what everybody give it a few weeks I know I know but I'm just saying but that really that alone it's just comical to me because there have been times that Zach's reached out to me he's like hey you know what about streaming this game and I always say yes like yeah let's do it but some of the games he's mentioned I'm like all right this might be painful I think there's always like a Euphoria when you get a new game like oh true aw the honeymoon stage right the honeymoon stage but there was and then your wife wants you to take out the garbage I I had low I just had low expectations for every anytime anybody's ever asked me about Black Knight I just say that game's brutal that's all I've known about the game The Game's brutal the game's hard it's fast I never really knew anything about the code because it's brutal you're going to drain before you can experience any of it but once you start to find the shots that game's a ton of fun I just like it I mean honestly Cactus Canyon I I didn't have big expectations for Cactus Canyon when Zach me borrow it but we just had fun like we just had fun with it and fast forward I ended up buying it because I had so much fun with it so I don't know I I mean what are your thoughts on Black Knight Ser as tournament Players have you beat the Black Knight is this a game that you can blow through and it's just like that's fun not in a tournament but like on a location play location yeah yeah but I mean it's so to put this easily you can do that on or in terms of like enjoying a game right just for what it is you can do that with any game like there's nothing out there that says because a rule set is deep or wide that you have to do everything in the game to enjoy it like that's where a lot of people went sideways with Avengers Infinity Quest they got so caught up in what the gyms did that you could have easily just ignored it completely not worried about it and just played through your battles and all that so there's a lot of games like that like Godzilla for instance you could just do your battles and not worry about anything else even if the side stuff starts you can just do that right you can you can take that mentality over to any game possible same thing for Star Wars everybody talks about the multipliers right like oh I'm confused because the multipliers you could just park it on the left ramp never touch that action button until you're in video mode and just play it like there's nothing that really says you have to do that so essentially that's the way that I look at some of these rule sets that are less complex like your Black Knights your monsters stuff like that sure it has some Nuance to it but it doesn't have the extra on top that gets you Sidetrack it just feels easier to stay focused on what you're currently doing okay does that make sense it does and you can do that across any game you do not have to get hung up on a bunch of sides like take Jaws for instance right yep hit the captive ball enough times to light your encounters right from there you have a choice you can either keep bashing the shark to get your encounter bonus 2x scoring all that or you could just start your encounters and just play through those yep and not worry about it all not worry about beachgoers nothing else so I mean that's that's really the reality of it you can play these games without doing everything in it and in tournaments often times that's how you'll play it you'll stay very focused on one strategy uh hi doggo Tom's dog is on camera uh yeah I I get it but I think one of the key is like Jaws if if my mother-in-law steps up to Jaws does she know or care about beachgoers does she know or care about any of even the modes I don't even know she know if she was in a mode but what she does know is when that shark pops up she wants to hit it and when she hits it it Roars at you and it goes down like that's satisfying or if you hit that wave ramp and now all of a sudden you're on that upper play field every shot up there that's how like there's a kinetic satisfaction part that's important and and if you they get to the part of multiball where it's like wait the fin pops up and I have a Time shot it's there there needs to be something interactive um that like I mean that's what I like about Cactus Canyon you got Bart back there is very easy every time you hit them his hat flies up people love that oh drop targets bad guys are popping up I can hit those people love that Godzilla you got the building oh the building like the whole game reacts when you hit that building the building's going down Mecca's going out there's I feel like we're talking about two different things though because you're you're talking about somebody that's basically brand new to pinball or doesn't know much about it compared to somebody that has played pinball for a while right like you and your brother you guys have played for a long time so you already have a foundational set of what your opinion is a fun pinball and not fun pinball like you already have a baseline understanding of that so that's going to be the prism you're going to view this from right compared to somebody just off the street that doesn't know what a ramp is doesn't know what an orbit is doesn't know what a pot bumper is right they're going to zero in on a shot right up the middle that's a bash because it does something yes whereas like you're talking mean right and your brother he's enjoying Black Knight and that's after playing everything else he's played because he has that Baseline Foundation to appreciate other nuances that a brand new player would not understand they just wouldn't you use star as an example though and my problem with that is did any of the Casual did my mother-in-law enjoy Star Wars no no no no Star War because there's nothing in the game is she a Star Wars fan she is but it's like but there's nothing in the game is she a big fan like I'm talking she's not what I mean but just that theme is squarely for Star Wars fans okay but I'm saying the game itself the kinetics we know the toys in Star Wars the death star is awesome but how many times did I experienced the Death Star the whole time I had it one time you need to find a new mother-in-law that's what I'm saying the hyperloop is awesome but it's a challenge to experience that hyperloop everything else in the game for a for a norm a casual player they're not there's really just nothing there and even my brother who you've said like did he enjoy Star Wars kind of did I enjoy Star Wars yes because my skill level is high enough that I can explore the modes create a strategy create a strategy and kind of work my way through the game well you're getting into design Theory too yeah like that's a Steve Ritchie decision on to have the pin play like that and have it designed like that and that's I mean that just shows you how difficult this job is that people have to take a theme and they have to think of okay what's going to appeal to the most people and that's what makes Godzilla great because it does have something right up the middle that makes sense and then it has various shots that's still challenging for even an average player to an above average or even a world class player there's different challenges to it and that's the key to a great game this this conversation we ended up you know we streamed it's it's now 12:00 at night I walked Jared out to the car and we're talking and he's just you know I said honestly we've we've gotten lucky in the last two years we've had some you know some bangers there's been some really fun pins and we start rolling through them on and and the question was like what what you know were there any pins that were hard to stream were not as fun we we did say um James Bond but we had super early code now now that game's great but one of the games that we admit we struggled with streaming was Godfather Godfather was and and even Eric Minor was on the show he was awesome he explained everything but the complexity of that game is it's so complex it's so complex that even like just trying to wrap our heads around how do we want to tackle this to to create an enjoyable path it was really hard it was really hard for us and Jared was asking why and I started and and I know this is um a critique to a lot of jjp games which is um what's his name uh Keith P. Johnson Keith P. Johnson Keith P. Johnson code is extremely complex and extremely deep that's what he's known for that's just what he does so my question is if jjp is rumored to have Harry Potter one of the greatest tees ever everybody all age ranges love Harry Potter but if you put Keith P. Johnson on Harry Potter code is there a chance that they create a game that is so complex that has seven books worth of stuff in it that the Casual my mother-in-law that steps up to it is gonna is g to just be overwhelmed or have no idea like how do you balance that or maybe she'll love it because there's so much of the theme in it I don't know or maybe they'll take the wands out because Wes are dangerous that could be it I mean it's tough because let's face facts like Toy Story right it was a shallower coat but it's still a fun game to play so really fun game you got to find a balance between I know that there's a lot of Manufacturers out there struggle with this too it's with where the prices are sometimes it might feel like you have to justify a price tag by adding in extra stuff but you got to be careful with how the code and the rules are that it becomes so bloated that yeah it becomes convoluted at that point to where your enduser has no idea what's going on and the tough part of with pinball is and even if you get to be an average player above average player you have to develop a lot of skills that become automatic to where you don't have to think about live catching drop catching dead bouncing trapping up stuff like that right like those things have to become automatic because if they're not you're just purely focused on that and you're not focused on anything else so good luck figuring out a jersey Jack pinball rule set and you're just fighting the pinball anyways and you have no clue where you're at so yeah I I think if they have Harry Potter I would say if they can develop a rule set that is not super easy but not super complex and super deep just something mid-range I think that that would be beneficial what if what if you coded a game in a way where the complexity like you don't unlock it until you get past step one in the game like what I mean is um like I think multipliers I think multipliers for a lot of people get very over like that was the problem with Star Wars was if you think about how many lights you have your mode shots but then you also have the combo you can move the combo you have you have the multiplier lights it's like what light am I looking at it's so you're talking like a plus like kind of like a console game like you defeat the game then you play like another play through and I'm think what if what if like you like the first mode you play there are no multipliers you can't use them you can't do it it's just just that way the first mode you're playing is just very clearly focused on the mode but once you get through the first mode which most casuals won't every mode after that you have more options you can do more things you can my question is does does somebody who is not into pinball even realize a game like Star Wars has multipliers probably but what they realiz idea but all the lights that's the problem that I I think like Deadpool what I like about Deadpool is the light show when you're in a mode the only lights that are on are the mode shots like there's nothing else in the way and then for you to cash out all the every light's off and it's like it's like strobing hit that and that's and that's you get the opposite in a jjp game every lights on all the time and so it's very it's very confusing to know what to hit and you know we've avoided that I mean maybe one way you avoid that is you don't allow you can't stack a mode and a multiball that way you don't have multiball light show and mode light show freaking out I just I maybe maybe we're in a whole another topic of just communication during a game what if the game taught you how to play the game um yeah that a tutorial option would be cool especially with light shows I and I think some games are better than others with choreographing like jackpot shot is or this you log in and and it goes okay hit these three shots this is going to start your mte ball and then you do that and like a pinball trainer yeah like a pinball trainer like I mean it's just kind of like the heads up tournaments you know like I I would agree something like that would be great I think it's just it's very tough because again the only people that are reading the rules right on the little scorecard or little rule card well the only people that read the little rule card and even pay attention to the Playfield art are people that are already pinball players right they've already played for a long time they know what to look for but there's people that even played pinball for years and they still don't look at that stuff they just don't and so there's already a lot of information out there so I'm not so sure like I I personally think a tutorial on IC would be pretty cool but I don't know how useful it would be to the masses if somebody would because there's a lot of people that still don't even know that you can hold both flippers in to change game modes and to go to DJ mixer there's a lot of people that don't even realize that still and they own the games like we we talk to people all the time that have owned a game for like two or three years and they're like I just now discovered this is this a new code update and I'm like it's been in there since like 2022 it's been a little while but yeah it's just it's hard to discover some of these things half shell challenge the we put uh on the flipping out we put a half shell challenge video and people are like I've had this game for years and never knew it was in it um I just think I I know um we talking about like when a game is released um this was when we were at the stern Factory and I think I was talking to team illn and basically the idea is when a when a game's released if it's not at 1.0 which pretty much none of them are like where where do you what do you prioritize in the code and I know some designers they want to show the depth they want to show how much they're gonna put in the game but I remember Keith was like no on release day I prioritize the first 10 minutes I want to make sure that the first 10 minutes of the game is as as buttoned up as possible because that's what people are going to experience it's it's opening day 95% of people all they will see the first 10 minutes yep initial reactions are everything look at Bond look at Bond I mean but how bones that was and and a lot of people won't even touch it anymore I I'm with you so that's even though it's an awesome game now from a design standpoint what if you carried that not only what if you carried that pass though what if you carried that pass the the initial release and just like how do we make the first 10 minutes that's why when you you when you put the Death Star as the best toy in Star Wars that's not a first 10-minute experience that's a you got to beat multiple modes to get to wizard mode to blow that thing up so it's like I just to me it's like how do you how do you build as much fun as possible into the first 10 minutes well and to be fair on Star Wars that kind of put Dwight behind the eightball too because that sh on a premium and Le is not an easy shot it's very hard right so you want to destroy the the Death Star is the grand finale right you don't want to destroy the Death Star in 30 seconds of hitting start you know right right so it's it's kind of one of those things to where yeah if you're figuring out what to do early on if I'm thinking of pinball I want to design something in which 98% of people that come up are going to be able to experience the thing because it's very easy to do the 2% that don't they're 5-year-olds just coming up and chimp flipping they have no idea anyways so I would want to do that and then yeah just like you talked about with the rules and everything I would want at least bare minimum your first five minutes on a game to be like you said very buttoned up very tight in terms of oh I do this this will happen then I do this this will happen and that leads to a path of Discovery but I know it's it's not as simple to do something like that because there's just so many moving things going at once but I definitely agree I think that rule set wise it would help that things are much cleaner upfront in terms of understanding how to do something immediately and I think that's probably why black knight appeals to you guys too because you know immediately what do you need to hit to let your modes it's right there in front of you yeah right so it's like you could accidentally start that that's that's one of the key things you don't have to skillfully start it you could just flip away back you know and accidentally get into something or accidentally start it at that Shield so I think there's just a lot of nuance that comes into this I there's I mean I'm not a game designer and I I have nothing but respect for the people that do it because there's that's it's got to be it's got to be near impossible to find like even even Godzilla as great as Godzilla is one of the one of the flaws or one of the things people complain about is like there are people that never experience of modee is because the scoop shots hard you know like if I if I had my wife come down here and play the game and I that's all I you know it used to be you had to hit the left hand right ramp they changed that now you just have to hit two ramps so it's great hopefully somebody can get up that right ramp twice boom boom but then they still got to hit the scoop and they got to do that but the good thing about Godzilla is even if a even if a casual or novice player doesn't experience a mode there's a chance that they're going to hit that building enough to see it go down even if it's one step and then they're curious what just happened or yeah or they're going to hit Mecca Godzilla enough or it's virtual they're going to see it spin you know but it's just like there's enough there that that I think a n a novice or casual player could have a really fun experience in that first five minutes first 10 minutes so what about this then what do you guys think about this because I've thought about this like for way too long probably much longer than I should but I've always thought it would be cool if a game start it and obviously like I always like the idea of picking your mode at the beginning then as soon as you plunge it's like you're picking your own adventure you're in the mode already Guardians how you start okay but but I understand the point that there's not any skill to that you're just automatically in so I've always wondered what if you have a game in which you start your mode off the plunge and then if you get through that you unlock like your tier two or level two modes instead of it going in there automatically that's something that you could choose to bypass a mode up front on the plunge and instead you have to hit that shot to start it or something like that to where it's kind of yeah it just it brings Both Worlds together it's kind of like what I was saying earlier of like what if you locked the complexity so you can choose the mode to go or you skip it and then you know when you get into that mode it's going to be more complex right you basically you start your ball without anything going right you just decide to play it old school and then you got to hit like a scoop ramp orbit whatever to start that level two mode let's say you apply that to Godzilla you're saying you would you hit the start button and it's and it's choose your fight you know pops up or whatever gy again you could just do it and immediately be fighting Gan or you can say exit and do your normal thing of qualifying it hit the scoop but when you do it it's either worth more points or it's worth more or you just go to another level something like that yeah yeah something to make it more complex maybe risk reward on the player to feel like okay there's a reason why I need to do this and then for the extreme extreme casual and again that's nobody listening to this podcast we're talking about just the grandma that's walking up with the grandkids and they have a bag over their shoulder they're kicking your ass at penberg but that's near here nor there and you just come up to the game and yeah you make it accessible for a younger kid or somebody that just wants to see something like I've always wondered if that's well obviously it's possible but I can't think of any game that really I think H like that that puts that together that could be a feature that Stern could add that or even insid or connected where it's just like auto mode start or something where when you hit start and that would be a really cool feature also for teaching or training because it's like I want to practice this mode instead of having to qualify to practice it you could just go straight to the mode or you could pick your mode but if that was a setting you could turn on at home or maybe if you're an operator you would allow it my kids would love that my wife would I would love that yeah that that would be a field day cuz there's too many times like I want to practice one particular thing and sometimes I don't want to wait and do all the things so I'll just take the glass off get there quick and then just play it as is you could put it in Insider connected pretty easy which would just be practice and then it allows you I mean free roam mode or something like that like a Sandbox gameplay that'd be cool I think I could see something like but if I had like Black Knight and it was and and I said practice start well it would what if it immediately acted like I've already qualified it and I've hit the shield and I'm already at the point where I'm instead of starting a character it allows me to pick a character and boom from there on be a normal game right but just allow me to get straight into a mode or allow me yeah I something like that would be interesting I don't think you label it practice though because you want to appeal to as many people as possible so maybe if there's like a Sandbox gameplay like like that's what I was thinking free roam or whatever it could be cuz stuff like that was popular with Halo in game like making your own Maps so what kept GTA around for over a decade absolutely it makes the game it keeps the game relevant it makes it fun they've already I mean they're already doing it with the challenge modes in a way where you can skip too and by the way clarification on the black and white um Godzilla the there are it's different so so on if you own a Topper you get the king of monsters time attack time attack it's a completely that mode is different than when you get to king of monsters within the game normally I got yelled up yeah we just pivoted didn't we well I'm just this is clarification this clation this just clarification team so that is I'm just clarifying it so if you have the topper you get the time mode and the whole point of the time mode is it's never ending ball save you get five minutes it's a it's a fun mode what mode is with that Bart topper behind you that's well that's the yeah that's the shooting mode I don't know what it's called shootout or something it's really fun does have like a special mode attached to it does it's not in any other game because there's lights on the topper it's it's not you have to have the top but anyways on the Godzilla 70th that just came out that challenge mode I'm pretty sure is just going to be like you just warped to the king of monsters mode that's already in the game so back to what we're saying so challenge modes we're already doing that in challenge modes to get to some of the wizard modes that they've put time in how popular would something like that be though like who would that appeal to with what we're talking about like yeah it would be cool to us three to do I think it would be huge I think would that be something like the majority of people would care about I do I genuinely think like my dad every single time he goes down to play Turtles can he get into Turtle Power the the pizza multiball yeah normally he can hit that enough to get into that if he picks Scott Donatello he's one ramp shot away from getting into Turtle power multiball but has he ever felt like he achieved something in that game no because he's never gotten into a mode and then beaten a mode compare that to Deadpool where Deadpool all you have to do is fall into a scoop and you're in a mode like I've had novice players at my house beat bad guys in Deadpool because they're one shot away from experiencing being in the mode and then it's clear enough to know what to do that they're like I'm playing it again I'm not this cat guy saber-tooth I'm playing him until I beat him you know they just keep doing it because they know they can do it they can pick him well the end of the modes too are brilliant on that game the fact that yeah it just like Focus you on the scoop completely it kind of reminds me of gorgar in that way that you just hear like the music just kind of change and pump up you know what I'm talking about I know Joel will have no idea I do yes you know what gorgar is yeah what is it it's it was the game that had the first speech in it oh you do know have you played it before I have it wasn't I mean honestly this is me being bad no it's just of these older games it's like I appreciate it for what it is but I just I'm over it you don't like the devil on the back glass and no it's like half naked women I appreciate it for what it is but not your thing I'm not a tournament player and I'm not going to ever own that game so I'm looking at it right now Joel I also have laser Q right next to it which is totally different than gorgar you know what laser Q looks like I actually play it it looks ridiculous but it's great has like dudes and Speedos and muscles out like playing P yeah that's a great theme I I I think you have a good idea though Travis it just I maybe it's stand by I just don't necessarily need it's I just wish there was a play a way that novice players could could just get straight into experiencing a mode and maybe that doesn't have to be coded by default for because my only fear with that like the thing I don't like about Guardians is when everybody always plays the same mode so you watch it it's like there's eight modes in it but you're always starting with the same one and that's what I kind of like about turtles is I like that I'm not picking the mode sure you could change it but same thing with stranger things you can technically change the mode and stranger things but to change it you have to go back in the pop bumpers how much control do you really have by a ball hitting pop bumpers think of the Video Game World like you play a video game for the first time it kind of walks you through like how to do certain things like oh I mean not every game does that but except for Elden ring no it do that the [ __ ] out of you the whole it's known for being brutal yeah like some of the games like Call of Duty or something you have like a mini intro campaign in the beginning of the game where you actually learn how to play you know um I don't think it's something like you would do initially like when you hit the start button but maybe through Insider connect I think that would be an awesome idea just like how do you start this multiball I I would like to see if possible if Stern would actually start doing tutorials for their games like they actually play they edit it they do the full on tutorial for it and then maybe offer that on the screen itself so it's like an option that you can go into so it's kind of like you have like a track thing that shows up which is cool but then imagine if that video like if they can play a video that's a promo on there surely they can get a video that's like a tutorial on there two and a half to five minutes however long you need it that's for the home user to say hey okay here's what it is here how you play this game and it doesn't have to go in like super depth but no you just have the designer or the rules person show up and explain it real quick like a quick promo cuz they could still have it on Youtube it'll still get the views and all that and then bring over software definit there would definitely be value in the tutorial I just think I think you're right I think if if it was linked Insider connect and there was a way I don't know if you tag your profile with a skill level Q code learn how to play the game but I'm just saying if if my wife came in and she home team Boop goes to her name and then hits start um you know like venom venom would say as soon as you hit start it would pop up and it would say like um I don't know it was like save progress save progress or no progress like if at that moment it would pop up boom and it would say like I don't know beginner use whatever you want not maybe not even tutorial but if it was like beginner mode or normal mode if she picks beginner sureal colel Carl but I'm saying what they need to do I would love that the easy mode I'm not saying the easy mode needs to have less shots what I'm saying is if the easy mode if she picked the easy mode in Jaws what if that means whatever shot she is she's shot away from a mode hasn't that been done before Travis like I me Batman Forever or something like that I mean there's certain ways that you could do it anyways you could go into the install menu and install like super easy or whatever it is and there you know where like the comp install is and all that now of course obviously you got to get into the coin door to do that so if we're speaking on accessibility for somebody that's just playing it on location no it doesn't have access to that yeah it it would the nicest part to what I would love is if you had the ability to take your QR code from Insider connect and then choose what difficulty this game's going to be set on as soon as you log in like that's that's what I would like to have access too to me that would be cool because I totally agree I would love to play if I was playing a one-on-one game with my nephew you know and I log in with my account I'm playing on normal he logs in he's playing on easy I'm I'm fine with the to score like I want to compete right with that handicap but to if I'm playing Godzilla like I'm fine with easy mode saying as soon as he hits start he's already in the scoop technically he's picking his battle he's starting right into a battle I mean you could set that or have the designer choose maybe he already has one ball virtually locked you can't but you can't play two people on the same game with different difficulties why not because you have to set that in the menu but I'm saying like with the QR code like yeah why could they not isolate it to each player cuz I can go on a console game why can't you and play like Borderlands right and I could be in the same Co-op group with my family and I could be playing on the hardest levels and they could be playing on just the Canon fodder level I'm with you ball say be double whatever it normally is like but I'm also not a coder so I don't know how difficult this would be to do cers like you sons of [ __ ] Travis Travis if Ray if Ray can code a game I mean it can't be that bad right Joel Joel Joel Ray that's what Joel said I didn't say it Ray damn he he's so high on you playing Le Zeppelin too the only way the only reason I call him out is because I know he listens that's it see now the real Joel comes out see now you guys know what I go through behind the scenes anyways I don't I we if you haven't noticed the the news is light so this we just wanted to have a fun conversation if you agree with any of us or disagree or tell tell us we're dumb or if you can code a game write us write the comment YouTube write the comment or write it on pinside or shoot us an email at triplej gmail.com let us know do you agree with this do you not whatever I mean I'm it's an interesting thought but to me we're just we're just talking about accessibility I just really what it boils down I just think the games that have stood out to me are at least the ones that have been more and more receptive by my my friends and family that get to play them um sure mechanical satisfaction I do think having an interactive toy is important um but it I'm realizing you're right like Black Knight you can be in a mode in Two Shots um Godzilla shirts three shots but one of those shots is challenging like Cactus Canyon you can really be like I don't know just trying to think of that shallower experience you're talking about just easy to learn hard to master yeah which is typically how a lot of your 70s and ' 80s pinball machines were as well that's why attack from Mars and Medieval Madness y that's why they're so popular for that exact reason because you know exactly what to do right on Attack From Mars it doesn't mean everybody's getting to Total Nuclear Annihilation because you got still hit the shots you got anybody could destroy a little saucer up the middle you could do that by accident completely I've watched my three-year-old do that in the past so um okay another question and do you agree with this statement that this is a this is statement from my my my good friend retro Seno uh he says that 50% of the pinball experience to him is audio audio makes do I agree that it's 50% you agree for your personal experience for when you play the game I I mean I know your answer I know the answer but do you feel that audio is 50% of the overall experience to you good or bad it with my headphones on or with off my with my headphones off yeah like what like what time are we playing this Joel I think okay if you're at home a home collection you're you're committed to you know you're focused on not tournament because I know tournament you you'll drown it out and listen to whatever t- Swift while you're playing a game but um when you're at home like you really want to experience a game maybe that's your question what percentage would you put audio being as as how important is audio 100% of my enjoyment is when I hit a [ __ ] shot okay 100% of my enjoyment is when I hit start and I just crank up the volume and I just get out my lawn chair and I just sit there and watch it I watch all the pretty lights go would you ever play the game muted would you ever play it yeah I do it all the time and that's fun for you at home well because I'm playing pinball I'm just focusing on the shots and everything I get lost the sound package Joel I'm weird okay so here's the thing I I love this I love the sound packages like on some of these games I have like Iron Maidens over there right yeah and Godzilla Jurassic Park all these games have subwoofers on them so if I want to listen to the music I will crank it up like it is cool hearing the Jurassic Park right like that's cool then there's other times I just want to pop on a podcast and just play the game yeah because I get I get lost in it like when I play Pinball I don't think about anything else like if I I could have the most stressful day ever I'll step up to a pinball machine and I'll just get lost in it like those 15 20 minutes so I mean audio party experience yeah of course you changed the sound package on your iron maid into like in sync right what did you hip-hop maid baby hipop it's awesome I miss it not that one but On My Le that I had okay clearly audio is important I mean I have headphone adapters on all my my games pin wolfer makes amazing products a lot of people upgrade their speakers you said you have subwoofers I know when I stream I'm doing direct capture of audio my brother and I are both wearing headphones we're trying to hear everything about that game um the reason I asked the question though is when we streamed Black Knight black Knight's sound package is fantastic it's fantastic metal guitars you know blood pumping it's fantastic but one of the guys in chat said hey there's an alternate sound package on that game you should try a game with it on I turned it to the alternate sound package and it completely changed the experience for us maybe not completely it wasn't a it wasn't but it the it was a drastic change in a positive way oh okay it's like it's like Orchestra every mode instead of it just being more metal guitar it's like the modes are very different depending on the sound um and it just completely changed like I mean heart rate increase or adrenaline or like Jared and I just got sucked into the game even further with this audio package change and it was something that I would consider a good audio package and then the change and I just once again it just I I the the more I'm into pinball or maybe it's just streaming with headphones the the the importance of a good audio package is slowly increasing in my mind because you take a game like Toy Story where that audio package is painful like I would struggle to own Toy Story because of the audio package but if you told me today they they they release a code update and they they they changed the songs or improve the audio package and Toy Story it might it would be like well okay maybe I would own that game or something no if we now the real question is is the importance of audio like in terms of priority I think audio is right behind like lights and actual gameplay okay in order to complete the full experience for you like I would put that ahead of LCD 100% audio audio is everything and it's like that for any experience whether it's obviously music but movies right that's why a lot of people get fancy soundar surround sound or you get like the 4K DVD with the immersive Dolby Atmos sound or whatever that is so yeah it's I mean music is and audio package is everything that's why call outs are important little sfx stuff oh yeah is super important so yeah I mean for the overall package yeah absolutely like I would say it's 100% important well I think that's what singz was basically like unless you're muting your game or you're putting headphones on to listen to you know your podcasts um you can't ignore the audio like you're you are gonna you are going to hear it and that's every time like it doesn't matter what you're how focused you are on the ball the audio is still coming into your ears and that's that's what I'm realizing is I agree I I would rather have you know no movie clips or terrible 3D animation or static image like I don't care about any of that but if you have good audio that's P fiction is a perfect example like the the sound package in pul fiction sure the movie clips are some of them are grainy because it's original movie clips from the sound packages from the thing but the rest of the music really I don't know it really adds the sound the sound tees up an emotion for you that guides what your behavior is going to be like do you feel rushed in doing something like just like we were talking about gorgar earlier that's what makes it popular because the sound like starts going faster faster you may not even have a shot anyways it just causes you to want to move faster so yeah it's in Pulp Fiction there's once you get through all the scenes you get to the shot the shot is what it's called and that's the adrenaline and it is the craziest sound experience one of them probably like top three I've experienced in a pinball machine because you like here you're you're the girl I don't know her name but like so the sound is kind of coming in and out the background noise and all you hear is heartbeat it's the craziest but like what an experience what like what an awesome so I mean Jaws does that too like as soon as you as soon as you hit start it does like the Happy Whimsical music but then what's cool is as soon as you get that ball out in the Playfield and you're technically in the water oh yeah that's when like the Jaws theme starts and that's what's pretty cool like that's immersive to me I totally agree and that's the grin that I saw on my dad's face when he was playing the game of just like immediately being sucked into that and I I mean I think Godzilla does it really well but honestly it's like I just think when people are like what who's on that design team you know sure we want to know the overall designer because we want to kind of have an idea of what the shots are going to be like we want to know who's on the code people want to know who did the art oh this a zombie Yeti game this a Christopher Christopher Franchi game you know people want to know that but to me it's like more and more who's on sound and if you tell me you hired out the sound like jjp has done on a few games they H out the sound to some I don't know cell phone Casino company it's like that is such a gut punch to me of it's just like why why would you do don't cheap out on that sound is so important so I don't know it just it I would encourage anybody to watch if you haven't heard the alternate sound package you can check out the stream that Jared and I did on on Flipping Out YouTube and basically halfway through we swap that's where this was going Tom I'm not trying to promotion it was full on promo this whole time don't don't go there check his dust does he have notes from Zach right now I just wonder where we're going with um yeah it's me it was my fault uh if the I have no idea how I'm going to cut this together but um there if you were just hearing and then all of a sudden there was a blank it was me it was me at least at least you're willing that I was getting so upset that I what happened is I moved my go XLR which is funny because that's the that's the device Travis was having issues with that that started about me any it that was 90 minutes ago which like killed my sound and it what was surprising is on Zen ker it immediately stopped the recording so what they were bashing me because apparently I was plugging my YouTube channel what I was going to say is good luck finding the alternate sound package anywhere else is Zach's YouTube channel okay yes the the live streaming I will take ownership for that's true but it is on Flipping Out yes you do do great content I'll give that to you you do have great content thank you so anyways try to find if and if you happen to be a black knight owner if you didn't know it go to your adjustments I think it's setting like 100 and try the alternate sound package it's freaking awesome it's really really good but wait for the White Knight to come out the the white KN art okay uh just to clarify cuz Go to's video first before you do that as well so you can hear it yeah check on and like And subscribe and thumbs up yep no uh just so so Tom in his reaction vide he's like is there going to be a Jaws black and white is there I would hope they don't do any more black and white unless the original content was black and white elv I understand because all the movies are black and white know I know it makes total sense with Godzilla but it it really didn't with alvir okay in my opinion I got I got a rib cramp sorry so but when John Wick Black and White comes out it's gonna be awesome it can't because they're already doing the Noir thing right yeah yeah yeah yeah like okay what what other games do they have that could possibly be black and white a Stern game yep like current games that they have I mean turtles you could technically do black and white but you'd have to redo the entire art package that's true like original you're absolutely right Eastman or whatever Spider-Man black edition oh [ __ ] they did that they already did that yeah already happened Tron I mean the bigger question is could theoretically every game could have a new addition you could do another art package for almost every game but it just goes back to like we talked about buy what you see today what you like today if you decide to sit on the sidelines because you think something else may happen in the future then so be it it may happen it may not happen Jaws blood and gore Edition which was and we do need to wrap up but it was just a one of the things Travis said because I was I was talking about Black Knight while I was fixing all this crap but it was um you know just if if you're enjoying a game and you're thinking about buying it ju yeah do what Travis just just go ahead buy it enjoy it play the heck out of it worst case you sell it best case you keep it um I know I know some some people that are selling Godzilla not because it's not an amazing game it's because they feel they can play it at their friend's house or play it at the bar you know give I mean that was kind of the bigger aha for me with black knight was I had completely written the game off completely written it off as like I I heard is brutal it's just it is what it is get it here in the house play the heck out of it for a few hours now having a blast so if you're bored of your collection or you find there's there's games in your collection you're not playing trade them in got do the whole yell thing take it out back yeah what you got to do there there's some really great games out there that um it's worth it's worth a shot or make some friends in the area and swap that's something I've done before I know it's a pain lugging and moving those things around but it's like hey let's swap this game for three months you know I mean it's just yeah it's a pain for like that one hour and then you have hours upon hours you know yeah I've done that before it's totally worth you have trustworthy friend sucks I want my game well yeah I mean but I don't know it's just there's a lot Jo tra Us game we like Joel like why do you have everything down like all the way on the end and these fat ass rubbers everywhere I thought about I thought about on Black Knight I was like I know this game is brutal maybe I should go ahead and close the outlanes a little bit and boy are they hungry boy are these outlanes hungry but honestly Magna save the oh boy i' I did it a few times um but you've got to be like a precog and know the ball's going in that direction to actually save the save the game but or save the ball but what I will say is like on a three ball game I've gotten through three of the creatures so it's like it's right it's it's it the the chance of me potentially facing the Black Knight on a three ball game I I feel like it's it's possible are you trying to collect night letters at all I have yes and I've I've gotten to one of the one of those multiballs only one time so it's like it's achieve it's achievable but it's going to be a challenge so I'm fine with where it's at but Zack challenged me or challenged Jared and I on stream set the game to six ball play one player but alternate the two of you so it basically created a co-op game and and and he said if if I could defeat the Black Knight then we could uh we he would give away something but in that we had gotten to the fifth guy we had gotten to the fifth guy and I blew it I did I blew it do you know how the uh Power sword or whatever do you know how that works it's it's the mod a little bit easier for you it makes them easier but to activate it you're hitting the deadliest shot in the game and that's the problem is I had it activated I'm like what do I do do I take a shot straight up the middle at that to make my life easier use your right flipper it's so if you go right flipper aim to the right of it yeah then you'll be fine I need to that's I need to get that I need to like find what I feel is safer because to get into another mode if you don't know Black Knight you have to hit the Black Knight which you're either hitting the flail the big stand up right at his belly or you hit his shield those are the three shots so they're all rough so it's like which one's the safer shot and to get further in the game you have to hit him more so it's it's fun but it's a be prepared this Ball's coming right back at you so you got to hit and react so what's I've been backhanding the shield but even that doesn't feel it's not 100% safe I mean it's it's you can go straight down the middle shot as well but okay well that's uh we got to wrap up um I got to go Jo's in trouble with his wife say she's got to make a call for a patient we got to figure out lunch so um sorry to everybody that that this was a month since the last time we recorded hopefully it won't take that long again but uh yeah let's go ahead and plug it up starting with Tom uh I am Fox Cities Pinball on Twitch YouTube and Facebook and Instagram uh you can find me there but uh I have well it pro podcast probably won't be out but uh watch our pin skins coming up uh this Sunday P golf thank you Tom nice uh Travis yeah I'm Travis and I'm on here on Triple drain pinball podcast found on the tpn network and are we on Spotify oh it's it's under it's on all the things yep yeah so you can find me on all the things with these two Knuckleheads and uh the pinball Company on YouTube doing tutorials videos stuff like that absolutely I'm Joel I do the flipping out pinball stream every Wednesday night on YouTube check that out um we we have merch my brother and I we worked with Johnny crap he helped design a pretty cool logo and and kind of just fun art piece um so we have merch now check that out on Silver ball swag I know Fox Cities Pinball merch is on Silver ball swag triple drain merch is on Silver ball swag so by little everything um but yeah we really appreciate the support all the people that support us on on patreon uh if you want a lunchbox go to Zazzle all all the good stuff but I think that's it is like decked out oh he's got all the triple Dre stuff on yeah Joel Joel pays me well we didn't even do Tom talks this episode either like I'm sorry Tom I told Joel we're gonna do that and Joel's like shut up we're not going to do it minutes if you need more Tom talks go to Fox pitball YouTube and you got all the reaction videos he's it's nobody interrupts him it's all Tom it's great it's all Tom I interrupt myself uh you get the last words uh goodbye
“it's addicting... there's the addiction is real”
Joel@ 10:53 — References Stern Insider Connected badge system as engagement driver; notes it works
medium · Joel: 'I haven't verified that there's AI built into the game... that's what we've been told'; discusses enemy placement affecting shot difficulty
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code_update: Latest code update to John Wick does not invalidate launch party strategies; multiple viable approaches exist
high · Travis: 'it's still accurate... there's legitimately like three different strategies to it'; recorded second strategy video post-update
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product_launch: Stern expanding speaker light kits from exclusive Jaws/Wick accessory to planned inclusion in future games
high · Joel: 'they've made it very clear that they're going to have the speaker lights probably in every game moving forward'
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rumor_hype: Discussion of whether Stern would retroactively code expression light show updates for previous games (Godzilla, etc.) to sell speaker light kits
low · Joel speculates: 'would it be worth Stern's time to pay somebody to code in additional light shows... to sell that accessory'; hosts debate feasibility
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content_signal: Tom increasing reaction video output to Stern releases; Triple Drain exploring reaction format alongside primary podcast content
high · Joel: 'Tom has become a reaction video type of guy... there's an art to the thumbnail'; Tom produced Godzilla B&W reaction video
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community_signal: Stern Insider Connected badge system successfully drives repeat play and engagement by incentivizing different gameplay strategies
high · Joel: 'the addiction is real'; describes Jaws badges pushing him to play specific modes; Travis gained contract via engagement
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aftermarket_innovation: Third-party mod creators (Davey, Diddy Mods) announcing black & white versions of their products to match cosmetic variant trend
high · Tom: 'Diddy Mods he's already announced that he's remaking his in black and white versions'; implies ecosystem response to Stern strategy
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product_concern: Players unfamiliar with John Wick speaker light/expression light system mistake dynamic gunshot shaking for machine malfunction
medium · Travis: 'multiple people that thought the machine was malfunctioning... I'm just playing and I'm hitting a post and now the machine's just shaking'; unclear if intentional design or UX gap