Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the flip side podcast. I'm your host retro Ralph. This is episode 50. We've done 50 of these. So crazy. Thank you for all the support. Today's going to be a very, I don't know, I'm going to try to do a topic that's a little controversial, but I'm going to try to do it in a level-headed way, the way I would want to do it. So anyways, that's what this show is going to be about today. Well, I didn't tell you what it's going to be about yet, but it's going to be a little controversial. But it's kind of a topic that's been in the news. When I say news, like it's been on particular forums. It's been talked about across multiple podcasts. So it's definitely a topic that people have been discussing. So I always think it's interesting when you take a topic that the community is discussing and then kind of break it down into like what the reality is, right? Because some of this is a little bit, I don't know. it's just the reality of where we find ourselves in pinball manufacturing in 2026. So before we do that, though, I want to get into a couple things before the main topic. So the one thing that I was really excited about is when Walking Dead Remastered came, Surge and Cale do this show, Cale Hernandez and Surge over at Electric Bat do this show called Pin Pals. And in that show, they break down games like they break down the code and the rules and the layout and stuff like that. And Serge had said he would come over to my house to teach us all how to play The Walking Dead Remastered or The Walking Dead in general, because the code base or the code rules technically on the one that's out right now, the remastered is basically the same code rules as the original game. So he did that and that was awesome. And I had a really good time with that. And if you haven't seen that live stream, go back and watch it. It's a lot of fun, especially if you own a Walking Dead remastered and maybe you were not familiar with the original one. It will get you playing this game with a lot of confidence very quickly. So anyway, so last or this past week, last week, there was a Walking Dead remastered launch party local. And I'm like, man, I got to go because I was feeling pretty confident about my skills around the Walking Dead. Thanks to Surge. So I'm going to just go play a little bit, a little clip here. So I went to this place. It's called – actually, funny thing is, hold on real quick. So if you're not looking visually, if you're actually watching the audio version or you're listening – not watching. If you're listening to the audio version, you're not seeing this. So it's a new location here in Glendale, Arizona, actually called Tilt Games. And so it's brand new. It's only been open for like a month. And it was a toy, a sex toy shop before that. So I'm showing you what it used to look like. That's what it used to look like. It was a sex toy shop, the People Pleaser place. So unfortunately, you'll have to go to another location to buy your sex toys because it is now a pinball location, which is great. So then the owner is a really good dude. I got to meet him and his wife, and they put on a really good event here at what's now known as Tilt Games. So here's the cool part. I came in second. I didn't win, but I came in second. I was really proud of myself, actually, because I played really well. I got to meet some really cool people at this location. Some of them are people that I've met before and played with before because a lot of the locals tend to go around when there's a new bar or location that's open. They'll go and support it, which is great, but not always good because they're such good players that sometimes it becomes hard for you to win a tournament yourself, especially if you're up and coming and your skills might not be as good as some of these other people. But I was able to get a second place, which I was pretty proud of, but I would have been so much more proud if I could have shown surge that I got first place, but I didn't. But hey, I'm still going to – I'll take second place all day long. It was really good. They got a good selection of games there. So if you're ever in the area, check it out. It's T-I-L-T-Z Games. I think that's right. Hold on. Let me just double check that. But, you know, T-I-L-T, tilt, G-A-M-E-Z, I think it is, right? Yeah, G-A-M-E-Z. So, yeah, if you're in Glendale, Arizona, if you find yourself over there, definitely go check it out. Or if you're in the Phoenix proper area, he's got some interesting hours because he kind of does this not full time. So I think he opens at like 3 or something. So, yeah, go check that out. Really good. Good people had a lot of fun there. And so, yeah, you know, I'm still I still dabble in tournament play. I try to go to the electric pad as much as I possibly can on Tuesdays for league night. But I don't know, like it's funny because before this, the last time I went to league night, it was absolutely horrendous. it's it's hard for me man i just get in my own head when it comes to competitive pinball when i'm in my garage and it's just me i'm like relaxed and it's just me in the game and the setting and atmosphere of competition uh just is different right it's just but but a lot of times it's like mental it's like you're putting it on yourself but i would definitely not deter you from going out like i've met so many freaking really cool people here in the phoenix area that play pinball that are passionate about pinball so you know you kind of have to like think about it as like what your what your skill level is and just go into it as like having fun and then and then if you keep getting better and you keep moving up the ranks that's also cool you know what i mean that's also cool so that but if you take it too seriously even though there are people that do right there are people that take it very serious uh just have fun with it you know and uh especially if you know your skill levels like moderate skill level just just have fun and i think you'll you'll have a really good time you'll meet really cool people so if you're not familiar and you're new to this podcast go to a thing called pinball map you can go look it up on just google pinball map and you can go and find locations to play in your area and it's totally worth it you'll have a great time it's not going to cost a lot of money right it's usually a dollar a game a tournament's usually going to cost you because they usually do them coin drop it costs you like five bucks if it's five rounds or four bucks if it's four rounds you know just it's it's cheap it's fun you have a couple beers, a drink, whatever, and enjoy yourself. So that's that. That's what happened with The Walking Dead. I was pretty excited about that. Second place, I'll take it. So one other thing before we get to the main topic. So for those of you that don't know, when I'm doing my produced content, my longer form content, I work with a guy named Mason Conrad. I've worked with him for a really long time. He's basically almost when I first started the YouTube channel probably like a year and a half in. So I've been working with Mason probably for over six years on various different projects. We've done big production projects like the Harry Potter featurette. We've done our own little series called Chasing Nostalgia, which was more why people collect, you know, these collections of video games and pinball machines and stuff like that. And so that kind of turned into a cool thing. We visited a lot of cool people. and then we had something called the arcade James Piekarz so we've done a lot of these like big scale things but also we've done a lot of just like basic youtube videos and he um he's like hey i i kind of want to start recording the behind the scenes of when we do these projects which i was like at first a little annoyed not gonna lie i was a little annoyed with because i'm like well well if we're there to do a job or we're doing a video like are you gonna focus more on the behind the scenes thing, which is really more for your channel, because then that's going to upset me if you're not like allocating the time to me. I don't sound selfish, but I pay Mason to do this. So anyways, he's like, no, no, no, no. It's I'll figure out a way to make it low touch. And so I then I started getting like really behind the idea. I'm like, that's actually really cool. So he he's he's allowing me to share the first minute, I guess, of this the last one we did when we went to Chicago for Fall of the Empire. So just, I'm going to let you watch it real quick. Let me know. But here's the thing. In the comments, let me know if you want to see stuff like this, because we probably have two that we could do already. And this one is pretty much done. He just won't let me see the whole thing, which I don't understand why. I don't know who I'm going to tell. Well, maybe all of you. I don't know. But I want you to watch it. Let me know what you think of it. And if you feel like you want to see this kind of content, this behind the scenes of what it takes to film some of this stuff let me know so here i'm gonna i'm gonna play the a clip real quick for you guys i'm getting a picture with the stormtrooper you gotta like scoot him over a little bit whoa dude imagine he popped it's unpredictable sometimes it's a mess sometimes it's magic but it's all in part the creative process It's currently 1.49 a.m. I should be in bed. I have an appointment at 9.45 tomorrow. I have work I have to get done this week. I just got a text two hours ago from Ralph, a buddy of mine I do editing for. This message said, hey, you want to do something crazy? I'm going to Chicago for the day. Just a day trip to Chicago. I'm not going to be there forever. I didn't unpack my bag yet from Wyoming because I was there literally this morning. That's working in my favor because I'm not unpacking now. I'm just going to take the camera bag and we're going to leave. My name is Mason and I do freelance video production, editing and motion graphics for content creators and businesses. Today we're visiting Stern Pinball in the Chicagoland area. so that's all he would give me that's it but i've seen a little bit more of it it's just really cool because you get to see how crazy this trip was because i literally had no plans i happened to be i don't remember where i was i think i was in new york for work and i messaged zach sharp and i'm like hey what's the chances because i missed the media day that you would have time to show me fall of the empire and he's like i can but it's it's going to be a pretty tight window and that's when i texted mason so like and it was kind of like later at night i think by the time i got a chance to text mason so so it's cool because it shows you that all the chaos uh that that that it took to film something which really wasn't that long it's on my my youtube channel retro realm but uh yeah like i think it's really cool his idea of doing this mason's awesome we've been working together forever he's actually a really good friend of mine at this point too like we've been really good friends and we have this like business relationship too uh and he helps with so many creative things so if you are listening to this and you are a content creator not that he needs the plug because most content creators are very much aware of him in our space now because of me working with him and they've met him at shows and stuff yeah definitely um hook him hook up with him and he can help you with stuff so anyways the main topic at hand what i was trying to get into is that I feel like there's this weird, I don't know, like almost not a divide in the community because that sounds too dramatic, but there's like this sentiment against Stern Pinball. And some of it is a little bit justified, but there are some people that take everything too far, right? It's like they go too far in one direction or too far in the other. But the main thing that it seems like is going on is there's this chatter that like the boutique pinball companies, I don't want to say it's boutique or boutique. I don't know how you, boutique? I don't know, whatever. I say boutique, but I think Kerry Hardy said I say that word weird, but I don't know. He's from Texas. He says a bunch of words weird. I don't say he says stuff weird, but all right. Anyway, so boutique, I guess I'm going to say boutique, that the boutique pinball companies are offering more value than Stern Pinball. Stern being the biggest one of all, right? And instead of reacting in an emotional way, I wanted to slow it down and see if we actually think this is true or is there like something else happening, right? Like what is actually causing this conversation to occur because it kind of has been brewing over the last couple years. and uh and you know i kind of definitely started my journey in pinball with a stern pinball machine which i would still very much recommend if someone wanted their first machine because they're reliable they make some pretty good games um there's a lot of ips to choose from and there's so many of them out there that you can buy used that uh it's it's an accessibility thing it's really easy to find them so and and i think the and we'll get more into that in a little bit But here's the thing. I was trying to figure out what has driven this conversation so much more now because I do feel like it's been amplified over the last, I don't know, let's say probably two years. I think it's been amplified over the last two years. So there's a couple of things. I think the one that's been driving it the most is that the smaller companies like the Spookies and the Barrels and just name your smaller company, the non-JJP, even though JJP could also be considered a boutique pinball manufacturer. they've really pivoted to giving us more for um the same cost as like a stern machine would would cost right so it's sort of created this delta between paying um less for more when when on the stern side of things you you know you looking at like the difference between a premium and an le and you you going oh my gosh there more there more packed into these games from the boutique manufacturers than there is from Stern and it a much higher price So I think a lot of people are starting to look at that and go, well, I don't feel like I'm getting enough for my money. Now, that's just what people are saying. And that's the perception, at least that's out there. And it doesn't even need to really be fully true. It's just that it's been repeated multiple times. And I do think there is a portion of the community that absolutely feels like they're not getting as much value out of a Stern machine as, you know, as they feel they should for the amount of money they're spending. So it made me try to figure out, like, what is it? Like, what is it that defines value for people, right? Like, what is it that they're feeling like they're not getting the value from? Because I When I go to the arcade, when I'm at Electric Pat, people love these Stern machines. They love them. So they like the way the games play. They like the way they're coded. They feel like they're really smooth, right? The geometry is really good. Like they know how to build a good machine. So what is this like value conversation that's in the community? So I started to look at like Reddit and Pinside and just various maybe other podcasts and stuff. And they really break down value into like certain things. This is like a repeatable thing that I could find like a pattern in, right? One of them is like toys and mechs. So you often hear people say like the game is packed. And by packed, they mean there's like more toys and mechanisms to interact with, right? That was one thing. That was pretty universal. Whenever this topic would come up on Pinside, that's what people would be arguing about. It's not loaded. It's not packed. It's not loaded. So, like, that was the one thing. That was one very much a constant. The other one that comes up, I'm always gassy when I do this show. I'm so sorry. I don't know why that happens. The other thing that comes up a lot is, oh, there's no sculpts. They use a lot of flat plastics. Like that Stern is not putting their money into, you know, putting more sculpts in the game. So you're getting like sort of flat plastic. So to the end user or consumer or the enthusiast, it seems cheaper. So that's like they're not seeing the value. And then they look at some of these other companies and they're putting in these like very detailed sculpts where Stern might decide to do a flat plastic in its place. So that's kind of – those are the main ones I see. It's the plastics and the toys and mechs because I don't hear people saying like their layouts are boring. I don't hear that ever, like at least not from what I could see. And the comments are interesting because no one's ever saying Stern doesn't make good games. They're more saying that the pricing of the games doesn't feel in line with everybody else. and the funny thing is I don't even think people are deciding not to buy the games they're still buying the games but this is just more of a conversation now but I do think there's probably a little bit of a shift in people deciding that they're going to move some of their dollars elsewhere now the thing is it's not as impactful to Stern I don't think today because a lot of these companies don't make nearly the amount of games that Stern makes right so is it hitting them hard right now it's hard for me to say because they're not really um you know they're not a publicly traded company so it's hard to know the actual numbers and sure you can go out and talk to distributors and stuff like that and ask them those questions how how is this game or that game selling but often that's regional like you could probably go to one distributor and he's sold all out of his le's of something and the other one still has like two or three hanging around so it's hard to kind of get the real deal on the numbers and how things are selling um especially because like i look at um fall of the empire i don't think that game again i'm kind of speculating because i don't know fully but i don't think that game really sold as well as stern anticipated yet at electric bat it's on their top five games i think their last month it was like number two or something so it's earning really well on location and i would bet that's probably universally true for most locations that bought it. It just doesn't seem to be as much of a hit at home, and I don't think they sold as many to the home buyers as they thought. And I think the home market, although I think there's a higher number lately, it was like either 70% or 80% of their market, Stern Pinball, is the home buyer. But they also, to me, whenever I go on location anywhere, there's a lot of Stern games on location. If you go to Pinball Map and look at, you can type in a release, and it'll tell you where they are. There's easily probably, I mean, there's got to be like close to 500. I would, gosh, I haven't looked. I don't know this for a fact, but most new released games, when it comes to Stern, there's quite a few. Like you'll see anywhere between 300 and 500 out on location. So they sell a lot of them to location. So like what is the whole like why are the boutiques winning in this conversation? And I think there's a lot, right? Because they don't have the overhead that Stern has. They don't have the big manufacturing facility Stern has. They don't have all the employees that Stern has to pay. They don't have all the designers that Stern has to pay and the software engineers and everyone that goes into making a pinball machine. So I think there's lesser risk for one of them to take chances on building maybe with more passion versus caring as much about the margins that they're going to make. It's definitely – I mean Stern's like a big company, and I've heard people say this. They're like when Stern goes on podcasts, they'll say things about all of that, the stuff I just talked about. But the general consumer doesn't care. I don't care that Stern has to pay all these people. I want people that work in the industry to get paid well. But if the company is telling the community that, well, the reason why you pay so much is because we have to pay all these people, there's two ways to look at it. Right. From the business side, I understand that because they have to keep the lights on. They have to keep things running. So, yes, there is pressure on their end. But also there's an additional layer of pressure because Stern has private investors. Right. And those people want to get a return on their money. So, yeah, they're going to be more concerned about the bottom line than making the game packed. Right. And if there's if making the game less packed means better margins for Stern, then yeah you're gonna get a game that they're gonna try to figure out how to make it as good as they can while still being able to maintain the margins they need to make to make money now the smaller companies right i always think about this and i'm not like a business major or anything but i gotta think they're obviously making less margins but they're not at the size and scale of the larger a larger organization like like stern right so they can probably take some lesser margins. But as they grow, it's like Stern's problem is with their own growth, right? They're so big now that they have to think about all of these things. They have to think about the investors. They have to think about the return on investment to them. So these smaller companies don't have to worry about that, but they will someday. So they can only do that for so long because they're going to keep growing. And as they keep growing, their overhead will also uh grow but but like as a general consumer i don't really want to like there's people i that's a valid argument they're like i don't really care like i just want a good pinball machine and i think that so that's kind of the interesting thing right is you're gonna probably get a more i'm using air quotes a more packed game uh from one of these boutique manufacturers because they have less overhead. But will you forever? Like, but I guess that's like the company. The company has to figure out like Spooky has been pretty controlled in the growth of their company. And they seem, from my interactions with them, they seem like such a passionate group of individuals. Now, but the thing is, I also believe that Stern is a very passionate group of individuals. But the pressures on Stern are far greater than the pressures on Spooky as far as like they don't have anybody to answer to but themselves. So I think they can get in a room and go, hey, we can make this Beetlejuice and we can put all this stuff in it. And maybe we make less money on this Beetlejuice than we did on Evil Dead. But man, the community is going to love it. We'll make a little bit more. We'll make more of them than we did Evil Dead. But we, oh man, we don't want to compromise on these things we're going to put in there so they can fluctuate from game to game right like one game could cost them slightly more than the other one and they don't have investors to go hey how come there's not uniformity and how much you're making per game they're like look we we really felt passionate about this one game so we're going to make a little less money on this one they could probably do that fairly easily um where stern can't they have to be like they have to make um you know that has to be consistent so um and there's going to be a lot of people that are going to press them to continue to be consistent so that pressure is not quite on them now now i'm not telling you all this because i just find it fascinating but i'm not telling you all this to say like i don't think stern is making great games i still think they make great games that's still probably my favorite company when it comes to gameplay they just make really good games and i love the way they code it and continue to support it um but the issue we're talking about is real like there is definitely this backing away of what seems to be like putting more into the games um they still try to at least it seems like they still try to highlight a particular thing in the game like maybe instead of having like three mechs it's one um and sometimes if you go with the pro you you don't have it at all but it so so it's definitely but then like i don't know it's a little inconsistent too because um like i look at dungeons and dragons and the dragon was pretty much in the pro was almost the same as the premium right it was almost the same it didn't move i can't remember which directions it didn't move i think it moved only up and down and it didn't move left and right so um so they try like they do try it reminds me of the i've been using this meme lately the one where Bart Simpson, he has the cake and it says, at least you tried. And then he puts it in the trash can. I don't feel that way, by the way, about Stern. I do feel like there's a really passionate group of people over there. So just to kind of reiterate the reality check on Stern, right? There's Stern machines everywhere. They're everywhere, right? Like I said, They're on location everywhere. But I think that there's a lot of people that enter this conversation about, you know, Stern versus the boutiques, and they don't realize, like, how hard it really is to do what Stern does. You know, and again, from a general consumer perspective, you might not care, but it's like they have manufacturing at scale. They are masters at the supply chain. They provide support long-term on their games, right? Long-term code support on most of their games. They have a distribution network. They have the ability to, through their distribution partners, globally service their product. So, I mean, there's so much that they do. They have Insider Connected. They have all this infrastructure that's built that I don't think people realize how robust that really is. So there's way more – like I said, to keep going back to this, there's just way more overhead than you'd think. But the thing that's kind of interesting is like where I kind of get – like kind of – I don't know, where I struggle with this conversation is it's like did the people at Stern become less creative or did the pressure from investors cause this problem? Because that is – you can push back, but I don't know. I don't know how leveraged they are, so I don't know. But I got to think that the reason why they're at where they're at is because they have to have a predictable – how can I think of what I'm talking about right now? It has to be predictable and repeatable. that becomes, and it has to be less risk. So like these games need to be built on a broader scale because they're making so many more of them than everybody else. And I think that, I don't know, I've never manufactured pinball, but I gotta think the problems you face when you're making thousands of a game have to be a lot different when you're only making 500. So yeah, but I mean, it's not, the thing that's crazy about all this It's not like – I just – I truly believe that people don't – like the people at Stern aren't trying to do anything like, oh, I'm going to build you a cheaper product and charge you more. I don't think that's it. I think that they have people to answer to, and in order to operate in the size and scale they do, they have to do it this way. But is there wiggle room in there? I hope so, because I think that this pressure is in its beginning stages. I know it been happening for a while but I do think now if the boutiques are making higher quantities it will start eating away you know slowly at some Stern sales The the the the thing that Stern is always going to win on is they can, they can produce at such scale, right? They can produce fast. It's crazy to me that there'll be a game that'll be new, that it comes out and I will order it and I will have it within like a month of the time I ordered it. And like I could go to JJP and order a Harry Potter and you might not have it for four months or five months. Now they're starting to ramp up production quite a bit. I think they've churned through a lot of them, but I know there were still buddies of mine that were still waiting for their Harry Potter. I think, you know, so yeah. So it'll be interesting to see, you know, what happens from here. and uh i don't know there's a little bit of like it feels like stern is the leader and people who used to root for them are rooting against them now and i don't know why you'd root against them because i just feel like they've done so much great for the hobby i i would hope no one's trying to like intentionally root against them but i do think hopefully they'll see some of what's going on and again i'm not like trying to make this a doom and gloom like dire straits episode or anything like that but i do think they have to take notice and maybe consider doing things slightly different than they have you know and i don't and i don't know what that looks like because i have no idea how multi-layered stern is from a leadership standpoint at this point like do they have so much bloat in a leadership chain that's expensive salaries i don't know like i don't know where they could cut to kind of make it make more sense to maybe put some additional value in the games and i have to be careful there too because there are people that like when i look at spike 2 to spike 3 there are things they've added like that are that you could arguably say is better like the screen is bigger the price is the same the the you know the spike 2 processor is more powerful the price is the same it's got more memory in it the price is the same it's got the ability to have expression lights on all the cabinets. You have to buy them on the other ones, but that's an optimization. That's something they changed in the cabinet design where you can put those on every game. The price is the same. So it's like Insider Connected continues to offer things to people and they have not, although there's the one thing, the all access thing, but for the most part, you don't pay more for that. They continue to add things to the code and don't really like they're not a la carte charging you. So, so there's things that, that, that to me, they are added value points, but I don't think they're enough because what people, what people look at when they look, look at a pinball machine is they visually look at it, right? And so they go, oh, I get Invisiglass. Oh, I get a shaker motor. Oh, I get powder coated armor. Oh, I get better speakers. Oh, I get cabinet lighting that goes on the back and the floor, So I think they need to – I don't know why people don't view the screen as maybe more value, but up until now, they haven't really fully utilized the screen assets, and I think some of that has been supposedly license holder driven. But still, I think that that is – people just view that as an excuse, whether it be accurate. It's probably true, but people are like, oh, what the heck? You can't use the whole screen. And I think when you give someone something and go, well, you can't really use it all the way, yeah, that's like natural human behavior to be like – that would be like me selling you these amazing speakers that could sound great and you want to listen to music loud. But I'm like, yeah, but I'm only going to let you listen to it like halfway. It's like, no, I want to utilize it for everything you sold me. Well, you can, but not on this one. Maybe on the next one. So there's some things that have – I don't know. I do find it challenging sometimes when you go and release a new game and you're going to showcase it on your new platform, which, by the way, I'm not very negative on Spike 3. I think Spike 3 is actually pretty cool, some of the things that they did. So I'm not like one of those like, oh, Spike 3 was a nothing burger because I do think there's actually quite a bit that they did do that is of value with Spike 3. But there is a part of the community that doesn't feel that way. so um but i wouldn't have showcased like i would make sure that the launch game of spike 3 was exciting and i don't think they really did that and um and the community's having to figure out what's cool about spike 3 that's that's backwards they should be telling us what's so cool about spike 3 uh because i bet there's a lot of you that don't even realize that that the cabinet expression lights can be added to any game now from walking dead moving forward from the walking dead remastered moving forward because now they have this new cabinet design that's cool actually because it was kind of a bummer when when uh when you buy a game and you can't put the expression lights on it now i don't know the thing is moving forward i also don't know like will every designer incorporate that that's one thing i don't like either like stern i think allows the designer to make the case on whether or not they have expression lighting or not so even though the cabinet could support it will the designer get behind it for the design that they're doing that's been inconsistent, right? Because there's games that offer them and games that don't. So that's kind of weird anyway. So I do think that some of the success has sort of caused this for them, right? So it's like they've had to focus on optimization and all of these other things and margins and stuff like that. So it has really sort of their success has caused them to get to this place. But I don't think it's something that they can't course correct from. And I don't think it would take much because I generally speaking, at least from talking to my friends and then people at the arcade, Electric Bat, people like the games that Stern creates. So they have the ability to, you know, are they going to the next games that have come out and a bunch of people are going to buy it. Right. So it's not like Stern's in trouble right now, but I do think that there's this brewing, you know, there's this like sentiment brewing. So I do think this is probably a good time to start thinking about for them to start thinking about like, well, what can we do to continue to? And sometimes it might be communication, too, like if you're doing cool stuff, when you do cool stuff as a company, you can't always just assume that everyone's going to figure it out. But you have to give it to us. You have to tell us about it. Like this thing with, we talked about this on the JBS show, on the roundtable, this thing Jack Danger's doing is really cool. Where he's like going to make this game and he's going to show us through the process. But that was a soundbite in a podcast that I grabbed off of Pinball News. So it was somewhere overseas. I think it was at like the Dutch Pinball Museum or something. They said that. But I don't really think he's said it. like there hasn't been a Stern video that's like, hey guys, this is super cool what we're doing. We're going to take you on a journey of creating a pinball machine. We're going to release it in 10 parts. We're going to have volume one is going to be the first five episodes, whatever it is, I don't know, whatever the format, but people would be interested in that. Like the communication needs to be there. And I think I've heard people say this before, and I do kind of agree with it. I think that Stern's customer, They do look at the customer as the distributor. I think that's okay, but they should also look at the customer as the actual consumer of the product and cater more to us. And they're doing a little bit of that. Like with Jack, like Jack's been hitting it hard. I like the Ask Jack Anything. I like the Drinks with Jack that they do, that they did at Expo, and they've released in a couple segments. Like give us more of that. Give us that connection back to the company because we don't have it right now. It's starting. Like, I don't want to say anything that's negative towards – because Jack has been, like, really killing it. More of that, right? Invite us in. Show us more. That kind of transparency, I think, goes a long way. So then the question is, is Stern really at risk? I think sales are probably okay, but the sentiment is split. And I think that's why we're at this crossroads. They're probably still selling okay, but they don't feel that – Like they're not freaking out internally. They may be slightly concerned. But I think right now is an interesting crossroads where if you've got this like 50, I don't know if it's 50-50, but there's definitely this split of people going like, man, I really wish that I felt like I was getting more for my money. If those people keep thinking that and then putting their dollars elsewhere, which is hard to do, by the way, because a lot of the other companies don't make as many games. But the thing is there's more and more companies. We're going to get another company making Resident Evil. I think it's called like World Pinball. American Pinball, as of the recording of this, is rebooting themselves. They have a new owner. Someone bought American Pinball. So now American Pinball is going to be back. So there's going to be more competition. So like you start amplifying all these boutiques. There's a lot more of them now. I mean, think about you got Turner, you got Barrels, you got Jersey Jack, you have this World Pinball one. You have Dutch Pinball. You have Pinball Brothers. You have Pedretti. Like, you could keep going. There's a lot of pinball companies out there now. So the more that continues, these boutiques to grow, that is going to take wallet share away from Stern. And I think Stern, the last time they said anything publicly, they had like, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure at some point before before these any of these companies existed, like when it was just Stern and then Jersey Jack, they probably were close to 100 percent market share. Now, who knows what they are at? Like they have to be being eroded a little bit. And that's got to be concerning as a business. So. I hopefully you guys are following me. I hope I'm not all over the place in this episode. I'm trying to, like, really hone it in on what I'm trying to say. But I did – I was actually talking to Jamie earlier today, and I was like, man, I don't know if I like this topic I'm talking about. And I was like, but I am passionate about it because I want all these companies to do well. I really do. Like I don't want any of these companies to fail. The only exception to that would be if a company is mistreating someone or they're – some of the stuff that had happened in the past in pinball, there were companies that did some shady stuff. and money was not returned to people that gave pre-order. Like there's a bunch of that, but I mean, it's in the past. But the thing is, like, of course, if a new company popped up and I felt like they weren't treating their customers right, or it was like a, you know, not so great organization, or we felt like they were doing things that weren't above board, then yes, of course, we wouldn't want to necessarily see them succeed because it would be negative for the community. But I feel like the players that are in the community, The players, the manufacturing companies that are in this hobby right now that we all know the names of have been pretty solid, and they've done well by their customer base. So CGC, didn't mention them, but yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens as we continue to get more of these. I still can't believe that there's going to be Americans going to be back. and I think it's Gassy and World Pinball. I think it's World Pinball or something like that. The ones making the Resident Evil. I think that's the name of the company. So man, it's just, which is good for us. There's going to be lots of choice. But I do think that Stern should probably think about this a little bit more. And I don't know, maybe they do internally, but they should. They should try to figure out like what it is that they could do to help win back some of these people that they're losing. Because I don't think they're losing a bunch of people, but I do think it's happening, right? So, I mean, what does that look like? Do they decide they're going to lean in a little bit more and put maybe some more mechs or some more sculpts in the game to give you this? I don't even want to call it perceived value because it's not. It's give me more of that value. You know what I mean? Like, how do they do that while still maintaining the things they need to do and keeping their investors happy? Because that part of it, the community really doesn't care about. And nor should they. They're not running Stern Pinball. They're just consumers of the product. So it is a little weird. I think it was Kaneda that said it, actually. But the community doesn't care about that. And I agree. Like, we don't – like, the company I work for, we're not telling them about our internal struggles. We're not telling our customers about our internal struggles. The only way we would tell them about a struggle is if it was affecting the whole market segment, right? Like I'll give you an example. So like NAND chips are actually becoming a little bit hard to get right now, and the prices are kind of going up on NAND across the board. So any product that uses NAND memory is going to have a price increase most likely. That's something that would affect the whole industry when it comes to data storage, when it comes to the whole IT landscape, and even the home consumer for that matter. So that's something that you would have to inform the customer base about. But to say the reason why I can't do this is because I have to make better margins, that's not – you know what I mean? That shouldn't be – that's not stuff you discuss externally. And they haven't said that, but they do say things like licensing costs and blah, blah, blah. Well, that's great, but we don't want to – I like knowing about it because I'm fascinated by these companies and how they all operate. But the end consumer does not care about that. They just want to buy a really fun and awesome pinball machine and know it's going to be supported and know that you're going to have a good experience, know that you're going to need parts. When you need parts, you're going to be able to get them, all of that stuff. It going to be reliable and I think those are some of the things that actually Stern wins on like uh reliability is second to none when it comes to me at least like i owned almost a pinball machine from i think every single one of these manufacturers so far try and think of this one i haven't owned i haven't owned a pedretti um i think i've owned most of them on dutch pinball i haven't owned a dutch pinball but um and i'm not saying that to say that the others are unreliable but i'm just saying like the stern machines historically are very reliable and that's why they win on location that's why you see majority locations having modern stern pinball machines or at least you know spike you know the spike 2 series games because they're easy to maintain they you know especially the pro versions for locations so you know there's gonna be there's gonna be someone on those comments that are gonna have that that would have had a bad experience with a spike 2 and they're gonna say that that's the whole but but like for the most part i do think that's absolutely 100 true all my friends i have stern spike twos have always felt like they're reliable and very little that you have to do to maintain them you know it is a pinball machine after all steel ball is hitting stuff so there's going to be that but for the most part they've they've been really reliable so i think the problem really isn't about stern necessarily losing too much because i do think there's a lot of you that probably don't even get wrapped up in this conversation and don't even really care and probably we're going to continue to buy anything that stern puts out as long as it's a title or a um theme that you're interested in um but the problem is if stern isn't managing this narrative a little bit better and there's ways for them to do that then the internet will just do it for you and that's not good like when the internet is forming the narrative of your company and you're not, that's not good. So I think that's probably the, the perception is definitely there right now. And I'm seeing, and the only reason why I'm doing this episode on this is because I'm seeing it more and more and it's upsetting. I like Stern, you know, I like their, I, everyone over there has always been really good to me. Um, I think they're good to their customers, but yeah, there's been some misses lately and some missed opportunities to maybe think about doing things a little bit differently. And I think the community, there's parts of the community that are, some are not doing anything and they're just gonna continue to buy and some are hearing this narrative and then they're looking around. Like they didn't even look at going to get a game from Barrels or going to get a game from Spooky and now they are. They're like, yeah, maybe my next game isn't gonna be Pokemon. Maybe my next game is gonna be Beetlejuice or maybe my next game is gonna be whatever. a non-stern release so maybe it's going to be Neverending Story by Barrels of Fun if that's what they do I don't know we'll see what they're going to do but it's funny because I don't know if it's going to be that or not and I had said on the JBS show I wasn't sure that was going to be a good theme it's a very Barrels of Fun theme to do the Neverending Story feels very Barrels of Fun when you look at Labyrinth I feel like that's kind of I don't know when I look at Labyrinth I feel like that's David David Van Es Like he wants to make games of things that he really loved in his childhood, which isn't necessarily a bad strategy, by the way. But, man, I keep going back to why they haven't done G.I. Joe because they have that one individual. I can't remember his name. I think it's – I can't remember his name now, so I don't want to get it wrong. But is it Brian Savage I think is his name? I could be wrong. But he was like a part of this Transformers community forever. So like he has all this experience with Transformers. It just feels like, man, talk about Transformers. Sorry, I said Transformers. G.I. Joe. It's like, dude, G.I. Joe, that's an amazing theme for pinball. Like, what are you doing? Like that should be the one you focus on, especially because nostalgia is so the way to go when it comes to pinball. And if you want to gain attention of the audience, nostalgia clearly works. So especially if it's something that your core base was really nostalgic for. Like, I do think Transformers is probably going to do pretty well for Stern. I personally wish that Transformers was the next Stern machine. But unfortunately, I don't think that's what they're going to be the case. It's probably going to be Pokemon. So before we wrap up, I do want to say I'm really impressed with what the boutique manufacturers are doing. They really are pushing the limits. They're pushing the limits. they're kind of bringing back the old 90s pinball you know style where there's lots of like impressive things under the play field but i also think there's this generation that got into pinball after all of the old guard and they i'm serious when i say this because it's just it's people I talk to. So I, and there are people that play lots of pinball. I think they care less about that stuff. I think the collector really cares like someone that's going to play a little bit less, but they really want something beautiful in their room that goes, wow. When you look under it, I was talking to my buddy, Sean, because I'm fascinated by like these groups of individuals in pinball, because I do think there's groups that don't play it that much, but just love to look at it and love to collect them but want the best looking thing i don't know how big that community is but there is a community of collectors that wants the coolest prettiest most beautiful looking thing and they also want it to be rare too because they'd want to be like one of the only ones to have it and then i think there's people that got into pinball not that long ago that didn't live through the 90s with these packed games so they like shots and layout and like flow is more important to them and and then there's people that ridicule them for that and i don't think that's fair like what they like is what they like and just because they didn't live through an era you era you did doesn't make their perception of pinball wrong it's just that's how they feel about pinball and i'm sort of i sort of straddle that line a little bit because i i did play pinball as a kid but very rare it wasn't until like after i kind of got out of the arcade hobby hobby that I really like started to get super passionate about it and I found that the things I gravitated towards were like Elwynn design like these these really cool flowy games that you could get into this like really good rhythm with and they didn't have to have a bunch of stuff in them I when there is something like a big mechanism and stuff that is awesome I like that so I'm not trying to say I don't because uh I can totally appreciate like Evil Dead uh has just some cool things in it right it's got those pop-ups that remind me of um remind me of medieval madness the trolls and medieval madness the pop-up things that pop up like that's cool um the way they did the ball lock like they they definitely did a lot of the basement the the double lane shooter thing the shotgun the hand i mean there's there's a lot packed into that game and it is one of my favorites for sure so i don't want people listening to this thinking like i don't want these games to pack bring it on but at the same time i they don't need to be packed for the sake of being packed like give me a cool mech and give me a cool toy and give me some sculpts and i'm happy but overdoing it is also not good either like don't put so much stuff in there that uh that like it you lose the rhythm of the game because i do think pinball should have a flow to it so anyways we'll see where it goes like i don't know all i can say is i think the way to summarize it is i i don't i don't i'm not doom and gloom i don't think stern is like gonna fail but i do think they have some interesting crossroads because jjp's starting to really hit right like they killed it with they really killed it so proud of that whole team that did harry potter and if sonic is next and all these things that people are kind of like these little sound bites that are going out there about how sonic's gonna be sounds like it could be pretty freaking amazing And so that would be like two bangers in a row for JJP. So that, you know, where, where JJP, you know, did they impact Stern as much as they did before? Well, now with this art, if they're going to do this arcade thing again and give you the same game for 10 K, you know, sure. There's no shaker and there's no Invisiglass and stuff, but they give you the same game and, you know, Stern's not giving you what's in an LE for a pro price or for a premium price, right? Well, sort of, but not the lights and the speakers and all that stuff. So anyways, I don't know. I'm kind of all over the place now. But hopefully you guys enjoyed this episode. It's a little different for me. I don't usually do this kind of stuff. I guess the one thing I'll say is I think pinball is in a really cool spot right now. Because these boutique companies are pushing the limits. Hats off to companies like Spooky who are really just designing games with passion and trying to not worry so much about, I'm sure they're making money, but I bet they're making less money than they probably could. They could probably charge more, but they don't. And will that last forever? Probably not. It depends on how big they want to get or have aspirations to get. Barrel's a fun. They're doing a lot of great things, packing in a lot of features that you would only see if you paid a little bit more from Stern. So I appreciate them for doing that as well. uh turner's doing a lot of that too in his games and i i i'm excited to hopefully see turner do maybe a license theme next like something that isn't an original you know something that is uh an ip that maybe is more recognizable uh i think pinball brothers did a great job with predator so i mean there's and then and then who knows what's going to happen with um With CGC, this will be like their first, this CGC play mechanics thing will be, I think, one where Mark Ritchie is going to have no handcuffs to do what he wants. And, you know, whether that story is true or not, I think it is the one where Quentin Tarantino definitely like had impact on what Mark Ritchie could do to the game because he wanted it a certain way. I think in this next game they're doing, which I believe Tim Sexton's doing the code on, which you may know him from his time at Stern. uh that's pretty exciting because tim's a passionate guy so there's all this cool stuff and then who knows what the heck american's gonna do like who knows it's under new ownership that means new ideas new philosophy you know you know maybe this team wouldn't have decided that after galactic tank force if this new regime was in there they might not have went let's make a let's make a game about steak i mean maybe they wouldn't have done that i don't know i just i get it that It was like a tribute to Barry O, but it was a weird follow-up game after one that didn't really go so well. So I'm excited to see what American will turn into. And again, the guy that did buy it I don't think has a background in pinball, but he has the money. He made money with like – he did like LED signs or something like that. but um but if he hires the right team if you hire the right team you could have something really cool so i i'm actually going to go into this year very open-minded about american because i didn't realize until i read um collins article actually that that this is like a full rebuild kind of thing like sure i think they're going to still have all the manufacturing capability and And I think they bought a lot of that original stuff that they were using, but like the facilities and stuff like that. But it felt like that the press release was very much – there was very much – I can't even talk right now. There was a lot of things in that press release that pointed to like company culture and that they want to build this the right way and that they want to focus on reestablishing a positive relationship with the community. Like so that's them being aware that we don't think so highly of American pinball right now. But they want us to, and it sounds like they're going to show us that we should trust them and that they can make a good game and that they can move forward in a positive direction. So that's really cool. And who knows what the heck they're going to come out with. So part of me was like, are they going to release Cuphead? But I don't know, man. I don't – maybe they will. I mean I heard from people that saw it that it was beautiful and that it shot well for an American pinball game. Like it shot really well. was like one of the best shooting games or that's exactly that's what people were saying so i don't know but uh i i don't think that's what it'll be though i think they're gonna move forward with something new uh not it just felt like in that press release they want to shed this you know even though i don't think american always had a bad reputation i think it started to toward the end and i think this new owner really wants to just give us confidence rebuild the confidence with the community. So I'm looking forward to see what that is. So, so guys, like this is going to be, there's just a lot that's going to be happening in pinball. That's positive. That's fun. That's exciting. I mean, all these options we're going to have is completely insane. So thank you for listening to this. I I'm sorry if I was a little all over the place, I tried to, this is just a little bit of a different topic for me. And I was trying to gather my thoughts along the way. So hopefully you hung in there with me. Hopefully you enjoyed the episode. If you have comments on what I presented and how you feel about it, definitely let me know. Do you feel like your, you know, Stern can, if Stern's lost you, do you feel like they can get you back? And do you agree with me that maybe this is the junction point where they really need to start figuring it out? Because the more it lingers, the worse it might get. So anyways, guys, thanks so much for watching. I appreciate each and every one of you and all the support of the podcast. Episode 50, pretty freaking cool. And for the next one, I'm going to figure out how to maybe do the next one live so we can do some giveaways and fun stuff so I can give back a little to you guys for all the support you've given me. That's it for now, guys, and we will see you on the flip side. you