Episode 807: "Two Terrible Toppers Tuesday"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·20m 32s·analyzed·May 31, 2023

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Kaneda critiques Godzilla toppers as overpriced junk and warns market saturation will crater prices.

Summary

Kaneda criticizes two newly released Godzilla toppers (Stern's official $1,000 topper and Electric Playground's $700-$1,200 alternative) as aesthetically poor and overpriced given Godzilla's status as one of Stern's greatest games. He discusses industry pricing concerns, rumors about sound engineer David Thiel's departure from Jersey Jack, American Pinball's Galactic Tank Force quality issues, and predicts the market will cool on recent releases while awaiting premium IP announcements.

Key Claims

The Stern Godzilla topper is priced at $1,000 and is aesthetically poor compared to previous Stern toppers like Mandalorian, Iron Maiden, Batman, Rush, and Munsters
high confidence · Kaneda, throughout episode discussing official Stern topper release
Godzilla is ranked #1 on Pinside Top 100 and is one of Stern's greatest pinball machines of all time
high confidence · Kaneda, describing the game's status and expectations
Stern implements DLC-style content through toppers, exemplified by Godzilla's timed attack mode unlock requiring $8,000 purchase (game + topper)
high confidence · Kaneda, comparing to Jurassic Park's goat mode strategy
David Thiel, noted sound engineer on Jersey Jack's Hobbit, Dialed In, and Pirates of the Caribbean, had conversations with Jersey Jack about The Godfather but couldn't align with Eric Minier on sound direction
medium confidence · Kaneda, stating 'I heard this through the grapevine' regarding Thiel negotiations
David Thiel worked at Deep Root on games like Raza, and that work will never see the light of day
medium confidence · Kaneda, describing Thiel's tenure at failed company
Mandalorian topper is now selling for $1,700 from distributors (down from $2,000 MSRP) due to overstock
medium confidence · Kaneda, observing secondary market discounting
American Pinball's Galactic Tank Force still has unresolved target issues and feels like a prototype after three years of development
medium confidence · Kaneda, referencing Flinibus deconstruction and questioning engineering decisions
Jersey Jack Pinball employees appear as mob bosses in The Godfather pinball, a decision Kaneda criticizes as inappropriate for licensed IP
high confidence · Kaneda, discussing marketing and licensing concerns

Notable Quotes

“This is Stern Pinballs, arguably one of their greatest pinball machines of all time, and they've had over a year to make a topper... and this is what they come up with? Why would they even go cheap on a Godzilla topper when they know that this game has been a sales phenomenon?”
Kaneda @ ~6:30 — Core thesis: Stern's Godzilla topper is disappointing given the game's acclaim and sales success
“This is how Stern Pinball is getting their DLC content into the pinball space through the back door by buying one of these toppers. And so as I look at this topper and I know people are upset by it, I want to just remind everybody this. You don't have to buy it.”
Kaneda @ ~8:30 — Identifies business strategy of locking gameplay modes behind accessory purchases
“This is probably costing Stern at most $100 to make. And I bet distributors are going to make a couple hundred dollars selling every one. And that's why we're seeing distributors gush over this topper because they don't care... they're going to make money on everyone sold.”
Kaneda @ ~12:00 — Questions distributor objectivity in topper reviews due to profit incentives
“When I look at this topper, I don't see $1,000 in material costs for this topper... Stern is making more money on these accessories than anything else. And I just wish they would stop being so greedy on the accessories, on the toppers.”
Kaneda @ ~16:00 — Direct criticism of Stern's accessory pricing strategy and perceived greed
“Jersey Jack Pinball gives you the topper at least for freaking Godfather... But whenever you buy a Jersey Jack CE, it comes with the topper included... for $13,000, the Stern machine should come with everything.”
Kaneda @ ~18:30 — Compares Stern and JJP business models; advocates for accessory bundling
“If you buy these things, you are sending a message to Stern Pinball that we will accept this flat plastic for $1,000. So I just encourage each and every one of you to think about that.”
Kaneda @ ~20:30 — Call to action for community consumer resistance against overpriced toppers

Entities

KanedapersonStern PinballcompanyGodzillagameElectric PlaygroundcompanyKeith Elwinperson David Thielperson Jersey Jack Pinballcompany

Signals

?
product_concern: Community backlash against Stern's official Godzilla topper ($1,000) for poor aesthetic design, lack of effort, and perceived overpricing relative to material costs; comparison to previous Stern toppers that delivered better value
high · Kaneda: 'flat plastic junk, it's total garbage what they're charging... This is probably costing Stern at most $100 to make... for a thousand dollars, people, this flat plastic junk, it's total garbage'
?
product_strategy: Stern implementing DLC-style content strategy by locking gameplay modes (timed attack modes) behind expensive topper purchases, demonstrated with Godzilla and previously with Jurassic Park
high · Kaneda: 'This is how Stern Pinball is getting their DLC content into the pinball space through the back door by buying one of these toppers... you've got some special Godzilla timed attack mode that you can only unlock if you spend $8,000'
$
market_signal: Mandalorian topper showing significant depreciation ($2,000 MSRP down to $1,700 distributor pricing) due to overstock; pattern expected to repeat with Godzilla and Foo Fighters toppers
high · Kaneda: 'I'm already seeing the Mandalorian topper is for sale for $1,700 bucks from distributors because they overbought them and nobody wants to spend $2,000'
?
personnel_signal: David Thiel (sound engineer) had negotiations with Jersey Jack Pinball for The Godfather but couldn't align with Eric Minier on sound direction; unclear where Thiel will land next (Pinball Brothers, Dutch Pinball, or elsewhere)
medium · Kaneda: 'I heard that he had conversations with Jersey Jack Pinball to work on The Godfather. And unfortunately, he couldn't see eye to eye with Eric Minier on how they wanted the game to sound'

Topics

Topper pricing and design qualityprimaryStern Pinball business strategy (DLC, accessory pricing, bundling)primaryIndustry pricing and market saturationprimaryAmerican Pinball's Galactic Tank Force engineering concernssecondaryJersey Jack Pinball personnel and sound design directionsecondarySecondary market depreciation and collector investment strategysecondaryLicensed IP employee cameos in gamessecondaryUpcoming premium theme releases and industry speculationmentioned

Sentiment

negative(-0.78)— Kaneda is highly critical of Stern's topper pricing, design quality, and business practices; frustrated with industry trend of accessory upselling and market saturation; cautiously optimistic about potential future premium IP releases but overall critical tone dominates episode

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.062

I was far too scared to hit him, but I would hit him in a heartbeat now. That's the thing with anger, it begs to stick around. Sit up, sit up, sit up, sit up, sit up, sit up, sit up. Ah, it is Topper Tuesday and everyone is upset with this Godzilla topper. We're going to talk about that on this episode of Canada's Pinball Podcast. My reaction to these two Godzilla toppers that just dropped into the pinball world, I'm going to give you a little bit of a story I heard about Jersey Jack Pinball. We've got some new news coming this Friday from Pinball Brothers. We'll see what's happening over there. It's not a new game reveal, but it's going to be an announcement. What do I think it's going to be? So let's get to this Godzilla topper. Now look, we saw the official Stern Godzilla topper. It's got Godzilla with all this flat plastic and he's firing his gamma ray beam at some tanks and there's some buildings that are all on fire. But the building structures themselves are completely fine. I guess these buildings just burn up from the inside and these tanks are way too big. I mean, if we're going to go to scale here, Godzilla is not big enough next to these tanks. these tanks should have been tiny and it looks like his gamma ray is like he's shooting out cotton candy it does not look like a gamma ray beam and so look this thing is a thousand dollars and we knew stern was gonna do this they were touting the fact that they had a topper that wasn't gonna be as expensive as the mandalorian topper and hey they surely delivered a topper that's not nearly as expensive as the mandalorian topper because they delivered a topper that's not nearly as nice as the Mandalorian topper. It's not as nice as the Iron Maiden topper or the Batman topper or the Rush topper or the Munsters topper. And here's why I think everybody is upset with this topper. It's not even like the fact that it's a thousand dollars. I think what people are upset about is this. This is Stern Pinballs, arguably one of their greatest pinball machines of all time. People love Godzilla. Stern's Godzilla put so much effort into the game itself. Keith Elwin destroyed it with one of the best layouts. It's got fun mechanisms. And this game is ranked, I think, number one on the Pinside Top 100. So you have one of Stern's greatest games of all time, and they've had over a year to make a topper, right? It's like the cherry on top of the most delicious pinball sundae ever, and this is what they come up with? Why would they even go cheap on a Godzilla topper when they know that this game has been a sales phenomenon? Wouldn't you want to release a topper that actually shows some freaking effort? that actually is worthy of the Godzilla game that sits underneath the topper. And I think that's what's got people really upset, is they just want it more. And yes, if we are to break down whether or not this topper is worth $1,000, people, wake up! This is the price of two Xbox consoles. Like, this is just flat plastic and some LEDs and some code that does not cost that much money. And this strategy by Stern is smart for them on a financial level where they're going to have some unique mode that you can only play if you buy the topper. We saw this tactic with Jurassic Park and the goat mode. And so now you've got some special Godzilla timed attack mode that you can only unlock if you spend $8,000. Like this is how Stern Pinball is getting their DLC content into the pinball space through the back door by buying one of these toppers. And so as I look at this topper and I know people are upset by it, I want to just remind everybody this. You don't have to buy it. Like nobody is forcing you to buy this thing. But we know that this is the way the hobby is going now. And what's unfortunate about this now is like Stern's in a position. Whenever they make an officially licensed topper for a game, they could almost charge whatever they want. And it sucks. And we're not getting the value. We didn't get the value on the Mandalorian topper. We didn't get the value on this Godzilla topper. I think the Rush topper is much cooler. I think it looks better. I think it fits the game better. I just wish the Stern topper department would actually be delivering more magical stuff. And I also think this, and this is just my opinion about toppers. I don't need a topper to add a gameplay element to the machine itself. All I want in a topper is something aesthetically beautiful that looks awesome on top of the machine I looking at a game like Iron Maiden I love that topper I looking at one like Batman I love that topper It doesn have to do anything When you playing a pinball machine your attention should be below the glass So if you have stuff happening up on the topper, I think it's stupid. I don't like that. I just want the topper to be something super attractive. So when my game is off, I see it and it makes me smile. When I turn my game on, it lights up with the game and it indicates something cool about the game itself or the theme itself, but I don't need it to be part of the gameplay. So then when you look at it like that, I just want a beautiful sculpt on top of the machine that maybe has the theme or the title or the name of the property. That's all I want. And for a thousand dollars, people, this flat plastic junk, it's total garbage what they're charging for this stuff. This is probably costing Stern at most $100 to make. And I bet distributors are going to make a couple hundred dollars selling every one. And that's why we're seeing distributors gush over this topper because they don't care. They're not going to come out and tell you this is a piece of crap for $1,000. They're going to say they love it because they're making money. And this is the other reason why it is very dangerous that we have distributors giving reviews of pinball stuff like this because they're never going to be objective with you because they're going to make money on everyone sold and that's that it just doesn't really fit the game it looks really cheap and i think the mod community could do a better job than stern is doing with this game it also looks like they took the godzilla figure from underneath the glass and put him on top of the topper it has the same zip tie on his tail is stern doing that are they just going to their parts bin. I don't know. Can someone verify whether or not that is a bigger Godzilla than what's below the glass? Now, if one bad Godzilla topper wasn't enough, there's also another even uglier Godzilla topper that came out today too from Electric Playground. Now, this is a mod company that has made other toppers. They made that really cool Twilight Zone topper. They're also the people that made that Godzilla topper that stole the zombie Yeti artwork. Now, here's the funny part. Their original Godzilla topper with the Zombie Eddie artwork is now, I would consider, the nicest Godzilla topper that has ever been made. Now, they were not allowed to sell that topper because they did steal Zombie Eddie's artwork. So now they've released a new topper for Godzilla that looks like a fishbowl. I mean, have you seen this thing? It's like this blue. I don't know if that's like a UFO and it's got four gameplay modes and then it's got an illustration of tanks and the Statue of Liberty and UFOs and the bridge, but it just looks really, really bad. And the reason it looks terrible, in my honest opinion, is none of the art style matches the Zombie Yeti art style. I mean, it has a lot more going on. I just don't like the way it looks. And I'm looking at the image right now of this topper on top of the pinball machine. And just the way it looks like a ball and it sort of bends upwards, it doesn't go with the straight lines of a pinball machine. And these guys want to sell this thing. I think there's two versions of it and it has some movement and it has a bunch of lights and I get that it interacts with the game, but they want to sell this thing for, I think, $700 all the way up to like $1,200. And look, ladies and gentlemen, all these prices now are just irrelevant because the problem is with pinball being so expensive right now, $1,000 seems like nothing. Like many of us are spending $500, $600 just to have a game shipped to us. $1,000 is the sales tax you pay on a Stern LE. And for everyone who owns a Godzilla and you bought it originally for $10,500, even if you put the Stern topper on it, you're still much cheaper than a current day Stern LE machine at $13,000. But the thing about all of it is this. There has to be a point in this hobby. When we look at something, we see the value in the thing. It's the same way when I look at Godfather Collector's Edition for $15,000. I don't see $15,000 in engineering effort under the glass. When I look at this topper, I don't see $1,000 in material costs for this topper. And I felt the Same way about the Mandalorian topper. $2,000 for a freaking flat plastic topper that has at most a $30 screen inside it with a mirror. And that's $2,000. Stern is making more money on these accessories than anything else. And I just wish they would stop being so greedy on the accessories, on the toppers. We're already spending so much money on these games and you don't have to fleece us. Here what I would love to see in the future I would love to see Stern Pinball go back and include the topper as part of the LE package of the game I mean Jersey Jack Pinball gives you the topper at least for freaking Godfather. That would be like a $2,000 topper if Stern priced the topper that's on the Godfather or on Toy Story or Pirates of the Caribbean. But whenever you buy a Jersey Jack CE, it comes with the topper included. I mean, freaking Stern Pinball now is selling you a $13,000 LE and then additional accessories. I mean, I just think that's criminal. I think for $13,000, the Stern machine should come with everything. We should not have to spend extra to unlock additional modes in the game or get the topper on the machine. So it's just unfortunate that at the end of the day, we have one of Stern's greatest machines of all time, and all the toppers available for it are pretty damn ugly. So that's Topper Tuesday. Not sure what our expectations were, but once again, as a pinball buying community, we are getting fleeced by a pinball company. Okay, what's new in the world of pinball? I mean, that's basically been the story of pinball since COVID, ladies and gentlemen. We are getting majorly ripped off, and the only way you could fight back is by keeping your money in your wallet. If you buy these things, you are sending a message to Stern Pinball that we will accept this flat plastic for $1,000. So I just encourage each and every one of you to think about that. Here's what I would recommend you do. Let the distributors buy these things up and nobody order them. Guess what will happen? You'll start to see the distributors put them on sale. I'm already seeing the Mandalorian topper is for sale for $1,700 bucks from distributors because they overbought them and nobody wants to spend $2,000 on a topper. So let your distributor friends buy up all these Godzilla toppers. Nobody buy them. And then guess what? They're going to have to sell them for cheaper. The same thing's happening with the games they buy. Everybody knows when they stock up on inventory like Toy Story LE and CE, guess what they're doing? They're selling it to customers for way less than MSRP. All right. So what else is going on in pinball. So we might start to see some Galactic Tank Force LEs unbox soon. I've been seeing some people on Facebook saying their LEs are going to ship next week. Now look, this is good news. I would love to see an unboxing of a Galactic Tank Force limited edition game. I would love for American Pinball to open up the door and do a Kaneda factory tour. I would love them to do the Kaneda boutique challenge. I would love to buy American Pinball a pizza party. But they have yet to show us if this game is really flying off the line over there. I also think they don't have a fix for the target issue. If you saw Flinibus, he deconstructed the game and he showed us what went into those tank targets and it doesn't seem like there's going to be a fix for these things. So it just begs the question, what were they doing with the whitewood of this game for three years? I just don't understand it. They did not put this game through its paces. It still feels like a prototype. And I would just be cautious if I were you. If you go in early on this game, you know there might be issues with how this game was engineered. All right, so here's an interesting story I heard. And again, take this story with a grain of salt. But I heard this through the grapevine. I heard that Mr. David Thiel, who is probably one of the best sound engineers in the history of pinball. He makes games sound incredibly well. And you know his work well on earlier Jersey Jack games. He worked on The Hobbit. He worked on Dialed In. He worked on Pirates of the Caribbean. And once he left Jersey Jack Pinball, the sound on Jersey Jack games started to sound more like a slot machine. And it lost a lot of its deep richness in the way their games sounded. Now, David went over to Deep Root and wasted a bunch of time working on games like Raza. His work was phenomenal. He played a lot of his Raza work once, and it's absolutely incredible that all of the work he did over at Deep Root will never see the light of day. But you can't blame him. He's a gun for hire. He got paid probably a decent amount of money of Deep Root dollars to sit there for a few years and work on these failed Robert Mueller projects. So here's what I heard, though. I heard that he had conversations with Jersey Jack Pinball to work on The Godfather. And unfortunately, he couldn't see eye to eye with Eric Minier on how they wanted the game to sound. I wish David and Jersey Jack Pinball could see eye to eye and work on future games together. David would be amazing to work on The Matrix. He would be amazing to help out with Harry Potter. So we shall see what happens over at Jersey Jack and the sound department And the other thing is where will David land next His work is phenomenal Will he go over and work with the pinball brothers Maybe he going to work on Dutch pinball's next game. They don't need him over at Stern pinball. Stern pinball games sound phenomenal. They know what they're doing in the sound department. So we look forward to seeing where David lands next. Will he go over to American pinball? Will there be another American pinball if they don't get this galactic tank force game sold so speaking of selling games i've been talking to my friend derek about the godfather and he let me know that when you play the godfather you can actually turn off all of the cheesy stuff that's in the game you know how like the jersey jack employees make their way into the game as mob bosses he told me you could turn all of that off so the only time you see clips are from the movie and he said it's a much better experience I still, for the life of me, do not understand why Jersey Jack Pinball made that marketing decision to put their own employees into an iconic movie's pinball experience. Imagine playing like Top Gun Pinball by freaking Jersey Jack and your co-pilot is like Jack Guarnieri or Ken Cromwell. Like, you can't have your own employees showing up in an iconic franchise's movie game. You don't get that permission. It's just not the way it works. You can't Easter egg yourselves into those kind of experiences. And I hope they learn a lesson here. I hope this is the last time we see this. I mean, imagine Harry Potter in which Jack Guarnieri's Dumbledore. I mean, you just can't do it. You're not allowed to do it. I mean, we saw American Pinball put their employees into Galactic Tank Force, and that's because it's an original theme. There's no source material. So when Steven Bowden pops up in the game, you're like, what's he doing here? This is supposed to be Harrison Ford. No, it doesn't matter. Now, I also think that's cheesy and corny and doesn't really work out. But here's my prediction, ladies and gentlemen. I'm just going to end this show by saying this. We've seen a lot of weird decisions in pinball since March. Ultimately, I think Foo Fighters is turning out to be an incredible hit for Stern Pinball. I think the Foo Fighters topper is going to be much better than this Godzilla topper. but I'm hearing a ton of great stuff about Foo Fighters. But I'm telling you, this is my feeling. We're still seeing just the B-level themes from all of these companies. Wait until Stern and Jersey Jack hit it out of the park with an A theme. Imagine a year from now and we're talking about Jaws and we're talking about Matrix, maybe Harry Potter. We're talking about Indiana Jones. Even though I heard the new movie is absolutely terrible. uh-oh, what if Stern's going to make that movie into a pinball machine and we're going to see another bad Indiana Jones game from Stern? Uh-oh. But if we see like a Tron vault, if we see a Lord of the Rings vault, I think we're just scratching the surface right now of what's about to happen in pinball. And this is why if I were you, I'm telling you, it is the best time ever to just sit on the sidelines and wait to see how the rest of the year pans out. You will be able to get anything you want, anything. There is nothing that's going to be hard to get. In like four months, it's going to be easy to get a Foo Fighters LE for less than $13,000. I don't care how much people are loving the game right now. The fact that it's 13 grand and they're making a thousand of them, it's not going to be that hard to get. Look how easy it is to get a Scooby-Doo right now. I mean, anyone who went in early on a Scooby-Doo, you just lost $3,000. They have like 1,400 more Scooby-Doos to make. 1,400 more! And you can already get them for $2,000 off after only $500 being made. Which is why I think Rick and Morty is the game I would get if I were you. I I mean, a Rick and Morty with butter cabinet, you can go get one now for $13,000. That is what Scooby-Doo costs with a butter cabinet. There's going to be two and a half times more Scooby-Doo pins out there in the world than Rick and Morty. That makes the decision real easy, ladies and gentlemen. All right, everybody. More coming on Kaneda's Pinball Podcast this week. Also, there's going to be a surprise appearance by Kaneda. Yours truly. He will be joining the Pinball Network for the first time ever this week. So look out for that episode of the Pinball Party. Because you know, Kaneda, I never miss a chance to join a pinball party. Have a great day, everybody. you