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#116 Pinfest 24 - The Classic Pinball Podcast

The Classic Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 2m·analyzed·Jun 11, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Post-Pinfest 2024 debrief covering rare EM games, vendor deals, and production improvements.

Summary

George and Dave discuss Pinfest 2024, sharing highlights including rare EM games (Joker Poker, Hot Hand, Embryon, Counterforce), vendor experiences, tournament observations, and specific machine purchases. They address podcast production feedback about audio quality from the previous episode and discuss various games played at the show, including comparisons between different game eras and design philosophies.

Key Claims

  • Keith Elwin episode will soon be the number one episode, Keith Elwin

    medium confidence · George stating 'Keith Elwin episode will soon be the number one episode, Keith Elwin. So get your votes in now.'

  • Rochester Pinball Collective is expanding from 50 to 80 games

    medium confidence · George: 'They're adding games. They're going from 50 to 80 games at the co-op, I guess. They've got a whole new space.'

  • Embryon (1981) has sound effects similar to 8-Ball Deluxe and Fathom

    medium confidence · George: 'Embryon's a nice game. It has sound effects from... It has a squawking talk board, so it sounds a little like 8-Ball Deluxe in there, a little bit of Fathom'

  • Counterforce was restored by Jay Richards and priced at $3,950

    medium confidence · Dave's video segment: 'this Counterforce from 1980. Real nice job that Jay Richards did on it. It's for sale, $39.50' [appears to be $3,950 based on context]

  • Wood rail cabinets transitioned from wooden legs to painted metal legs around 1951-1952

    medium confidence · George: 'wood rails were there, but wooden legs. I think they stopped doing that around 51, 52. And they went to painted metal legs'

Notable Quotes

  • “Keith Elwin episode will soon be the number one episode, Keith Elwin. So get your votes in now.”

    George @ ~27:30 — Indicates growing popularity of Keith Elwin-related content and potential shift in community podcast preferences

  • “Pintastic, great show to go play pinball. Pintest, every one of the new games... lines. Long lines.”

    George @ ~16:00 — Distinguishes between two major pinball events and their different characteristics and crowd management

  • “It's definitely worth buying a game like that because you don't have to do a play field swap. That's $1,100 plus all the work and time.”

    George @ ~45:30 — Illustrates economic factors in EM game purchasing decisions and restoration cost considerations

  • “You got to sharpen the pencil and make the broadcast a little bit more powerful.”

    George @ ~2:30 — Acknowledgment of technical production feedback from audience about audio quality

  • “It's a deceptive game. Getting over 100,000 on that game, you're doing very well.”

    Dave @ ~11:30 — Assessment of the homebrew Jaws machine difficulty and gameplay expectations

Entities

GeorgepersonDavepersonPinfesteventIvanpersonKeith ElwinpersonSterncompanyCounterforcegameJawsgame

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinfest 2024 showed improved ticket and entry logistics compared to prior years, with Ivan successfully reducing wait times

    high · George: 'Unlike other years, you got it down' and 'seven minutes' wait despite arrival at 9:45 AM Friday

  • $

    market_signal: Rare EM game pricing remains strong; Embryon sold for $3,200, Hot Hand and Joker Poker increasing in desirability and price

    high · George noting Embryon price is 'definitely worth it' and Hot Hand is 'not cheap anymore' despite being a utility game

  • ?

    community_signal: Shift in podcast listener preferences; Keith Elwin episode approaching #1 ranking, suggesting designer/interview content gaining prominence

    medium · George: 'Keith Elwin episode will soon be the number one episode, Eclipsing Harlem'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Rochester Pinball Cooperative expanding operations significantly from 50 to 80 machines with new facility space

    medium · George: 'They're adding games. They're going from 50 to 80 games at the co-op. They've got a whole new space.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Tournament exposure driving renewed interest in classic EM games; examples at Pinfest inspiring purchases and future collection building

    medium · George: 'Because of these tournaments, showing off these old school games on the play... it brings in new interest'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.368

0:00
Hit it. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Classic Pinball Podcast. My name is George. His name is Dave. Hello, Dave. Hello, George. Dave, I'd like to start the show by apologizing to our audience for our last episode. Dave is not going to read the comments now. But I tried to do something a little bit different, and I don't think we were very successful. Now, Dave and I are going to try to do a little bit more behind-the-scenes leveling so we don't hurt everyone's ears. And to those who can still hear me, my apologies. Tried something different. Didn't work. I'll take the hit. But what we're hearing is the content's good. Guys, you've got to sharpen the pencil and make the broadcast a little bit more powerful.
1:06
Yes, Dave? Yeah, that's what I'm hearing on the wire. I guess people weren't so polite, but, you know, hey, they listen. So we're going to try. So Dave and I are, well, this is post-PinFest. It's Tuesday afternoon. John Wick was just released We'll get to that in a few minutes But you hear our Lovely friends in the background And I lose Use and lose that term Loosely We have, what are they called? Grackles? Grackles These are foul birds I do not like these guys I do not like them in my yard I do not like them in my house I do not like them one bit If they are poop carriers, let's just leave it at that. If you know what a grackle is, you know what I'm talking about. We're sitting on the front porch, and you can hear the wildlife in the background. We're waiting for a thunderstorm.
2:07
Dave, why don't we start with Pinfest? You were there for three days. I was there for about three hours. So, why don't you tell us a little bit of the highlight reel of what Pinfest was this year and what activities you partook in. So, Pintas this year, real nice turnout. On Thursday, the setup day, brought a Joker Poker again this year for tournament lineup. They had, I think, 15 games or so, something like that, against Backwall. They had a lot of good games in pre-play, some real nice restored stuff. A Counterforce was there, really well done by someone who's after that one. there was a whole bunch of buying and selling going on lots of flea markets up and going on with the show this show is basically known for a lot of people hooking up with deals parts going back and forth trades a lot of people from Canada came down as usual buying up stuff I sold a rare Zachary a black belt I picked up and got my money for it that I wanted and that went up to a guy in Canada I hooked up with him and then I brought a whole bunch of other parts that were just taking up some space in my tech area, in my basement and so forth, and brought all that, turned that into money and made more space, which was good. And I've got some good interviews with Ivan, the show promoter, and a couple other vendors of the show.
Hot Hand
game
Embryongame
Rochester Pinball Collectiveorganization
Joker Pokergame
Sittin' Prettygame
Cliff Albertperson
Markperson
Dave Matrandoperson
Jay Richardsperson
Valleycompany
Butch's Game Roomorganization
White Rose Game Showevent
York, Pennsylvaniaevent
Williamscompany
Alvin Gottliebcompany
Pulp Fictiongame
Pinsideorganization

design_innovation: Homebrew pinball modifications enabling game customization; Valley Knight Rider and Silverball Mania platforms used for Jaws homebrew variants

medium · Dave: 'It was based on Valley Knight Rider' and earlier reference to Valley Silverball Mania base

  • ?

    content_signal: Podcast audio quality issues from previous episode generated multiple listener complaints about volume spikes and sound balancing

    high · George addressing 'last episode' production problems and Mark's Pinside feedback about audio

  • ?

    historical_signal: Documentation of manufacturing transitions in classic pinball; wooden legs on wood rail cabinets discontinued circa 1951-1952 in favor of painted metal

    medium · George: 'wooden legs... I think they stopped doing that around 51, 52. And they went to painted metal legs'

  • ?

    community_signal: Active vendor ecosystem at Pinfest with high transaction volumes; dealers successfully moving inventory and sourcing parts for trades

    high · Dave: 'lots of flea markets... a lot of people from Canada came down... a lot of buying and selling going on'

  • ?

    tournament_signal: Tournament game selection and difficulty impacting player experience; homebrew Jaws variants playing deceptively difficult despite perceived simplicity

    medium · George: 'some people had some difficulty playing that game... it's very deceptive... It's more of a five-digit EM'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Modern SS throwback games like Pulp Fiction criticized as too easy compared to classic Stern and Valley titles

    low · Mark via George: 'it's too easy. I can't stand long playing games. Give me classic sterns or even some valleys'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Different pinball show formats serve distinct community needs; Pintastic emphasizes casual play, Pintest emphasizes new game releases with significant queuing

    high · George: 'Pintastic, great show to go play pinball... no lines. Pintest, every one of the new games... lines. Long lines.'

    • 3:38
    Your buddy Dave? Yeah, Dave. Yeah, Dave Matrando. I interviewed him. Oh, you did? Yep. Oh, I wasn't that quick. Who was the other guy you interviewed? What did I say? Mark, Mark Antonucci from Pinnivators. No, that wasn't him. I know who that is. No, we were standing in the back where Scott usually is.
    3:57
    Oh, Dave. Dave Macy and Jerry Carver. I didn't interview him. I wanted to, but he said, oh no, he's kind of shy like that. He didn't want to get interviewed. So it's fine. They're interesting characters. They go through restorations on games, mostly the mid-80s and 90s stuff. They kind of concentrated on it. They each do their separate thing. Jared brings a lot of games for the show, typically, and he sells them for the show. Stu and Ben were there, brought a couple games for sale. All right, Betty made the finals in the tournament, which was a good graduation for Betty. Yep. He actually got the number two score on the pinball pool I brought, so he did well on that. Levy did pretty well. He was one of the top qualifiers, I believe. But the ending result of that tournament, they didn't really get to, it seemed to go really quick at the finals when a couple hours was done. I thought it would be going a lot longer. But only certain games were selected. The whole lineup wasn't really selected for the finals, it seems. So we're not going to dwell on the tournament, per se. Yeah. But I do want to talk about, I wonder if everybody can hear that. Oh, yeah, they can hear that. They can? Yeah, yeah. My front porch is close to a country road, and every once in a while we get some traffic, so bear with us.
    5:22
    I'm not going to read that. Okay. What I was going to say is, two of the games were Jaws. One, a pro, the other, a homebrew. And let's talk about this, because it messed me up and it messed you up. When we were in the old Sturbridge location for Tentastic, we played a Jaws that was based on a Valley Silverball Mania. This homebrew, I thought it was the same machine. It was not. It was based on Valley Knight Rider. Correct. Yep. and some people had some difficulty playing that game in the tournament, from what I saw. I think a lot of people thought, oh, this is an easy game. It's not such an easy game. So, was it because it wasn't quite tuned in right? Was it too fast? No, they had it jacked up, and it was moving pretty quickly. As you know, I think it's a very deceptive game. We've talked about this before. Getting over 100,000 on that game, you're doing very well. Yeah, it's more of a five-digit EM that it plays on. Right, right. It's a tough game. I like it because it's targets, right. But it messed us up because we thought it was the same game, and it wasn't. So the person who bought it at the show was Cliff Albert, and you folks probably know who he is. Rock and roll man. If you've watched any tournament, you know who he is. but don't know what he paid for it. Cool looking machine. Made me think about my Knight Rider and say, hmm, that's a pretty cool thing, but that'll pass. We'll stay the same. I won't put the work in.
    7:14
    Yeah, I already started a couple of those games, and I definitely like the new home software you can put in. It makes it a much better game, because you can, as we talked about before, you can either have to get a bank of drop targets down, increasing the value of those drop targets. Go listen to whatever episode. Knight Rider episode. Right. Go back and listen to the Knight Rider episode. While we're talking about episodes, folks, we're getting close. Predicted it. Keith Ellwin episode will soon be the number one episode, Eclipsing Harlem. So get your votes in now. Listen to your favorite and boost the numbers.
    7:53
    Yeah, Harlem. Great. It's a great game to play. Yep. So, what else about the show? Highlight reel. It was pretty much the same show. What people need to understand is, Pintastic and Pintest, I mess the names up all the time. Pintastic, great show to go play pinball. I told you in the last episode, no lines.
    8:19
    Pintest, every one of the new games, and we went through them in the last show, lines. Lines. Long lines. Unless you're a vendor, or you bring a game, Get in there early. If you get in Thursday, then you can have your choice. Well, Benny was saying Thursday night, what do you want to play and how much? Right. Exactly. Not the case. And then Friday, I get there, quarter of 10. The line was around the block, and I did not buy a ticket in advance. I'm saying, oh, this is going to really be horrible. I'm going to be standing here for half an hour, seven minutes. Ivan.
    8:58
    Bravo. You did a great job on that one. Unlike other years, you got it down. So, yeah, Bruce Nightingale out front barking like he always does, you know, directing traffic, so it was interesting to see him. It was pretty much the same show as I've seen in the past. Nothing stuck out being any different. I like, you know, since I've dealt with, you know, Bob Butch, you know, Butch's game room, because he brought glass up to me from, he brought some Ivan glass, some eyeglass to me, and some voodoo glass at the Fantastic a month ago. And so I got in a relationship with him and talked to him some more at this show. And I got to play, I saw he had an alien. It's like, you know, I probably should play it. I'm a fan of that movie, or those movies, some of them, the first two anyway. Actually, the second one I like better, Aliens. But it was a fun game to play. especially if you like that movie, a lot of good call-outs, a lot of good video for the movie. It actually is very immersive because it has the little, when you're going to scan for aliens, it makes that, you know, boom, boom, boom, and that da-da-da, da-da-da kind of thing. And it kind of gives you that... It's a good sound package. Good sound package, good integration. You can hear it? Oh, yeah, you can hear it because his games and his boot there, it's not really free play. It's like, you want to try out the game? Okay, I'll put a couple of games on. Well, he's there to sell games. To sell games. Oh, what is it? So you can try it out, but you're not going to sit there all day long and park your butt down there for, you know, a million hours and do it. So it was good. He did quite well. He sold a lot. So much so he had to go back and get more games. He brought more games in. True? Yeah. He kept bringing more games in. Well, he's in Pennsylvania somewhere?
    10:42
    He's in Pennsylvania, I believe. Yeah. No, he just went away. He was hanging around. Oh, that yellow jacket right there? That's your guy? Yeah. Must be. That's full time. Okay, so it's pool time, folks. We've got a break here. We're going to come back, and we'll talk in a little bit. What the heck is this? Oh, he's got a cart full of crap. A cart full of chemicals, George. There we go. Chemicals. Chem man. Yeah. Chemicals. Anyway, we'll break here, and we'll come back. I thought it was going to be My Chemical Romance. I thought we would have more time, but... Okay. My Chemical Romance. Cody! Ding.
    11:17
    All right, we are live. Okay, so you like the Alien game. I played something from 1965. Valley. 50-50. All right.
    11:35
    Only 580 electromechanicals made. So not very many. But I told Dave, who was not familiar with this game, and it looks like the game I played might have... No, they got them in there. I don't know why they didn't count them. Take a look at this play field. I walked by it and I said, that's a really strange looking electromechanical. It's like a divided play field, red on one side, blue on the other. And when you go through the top area, through the rollovers, there's two lanes. One side lights the blue mushroom targets, which I think is pretty cool. It's got six mushroom targets in it. Yep. Three red and three blue. But it's on the opposite side, so when the ball comes down, you have to get it up onto the other side to score points. In other words, you go through the lane, that side's not lit. It's the other side that's lit, so you've got to get it down and then get it back up. I thought it was fun. Something different. Let's say you've got seven mushrooms. You've got two blue, two red, and three white, it looks like. Okay. Cool game. Something different. Speaking of 50s games, I played a Sittin' Pretty, 1958. 1,000 made. Wood rail, right? Wood rail. And I found something else about wood rails I didn't really know about. I guess wood rails, like, well, wood rails were there, but wooden legs.
    13:02
    I think they stopped doing that around 51, 52. Oh, is that true? Yep. And they went to painted metal legs, because they use a manufacturer and whatever, and so painted legs for like the early 50s on. until you got the chrome stuff coming in. But it's sitting pretty. I had kind of a beige-like situation going on, beige painted metal. Fun game. I'm not usually a big fan of pushing your own ball up there and then plunging, but it was a lot of fun. Good back glass animation. You're trying to dunk the clowns in the back. The clowns live in the background there, and you get certain things down, certain numbered clown, and they'll fall down, so now they're lit up on the bottom and they kind of fall down off their little perch there. So that was pretty cool. Talk to the owner of them. I forget the guy's name. No, I know. I forget the guy's name. His name is Dave. How can I forget the guy's name? His name is Dave. Another Dave. And he's a big York show, White Rose Game Show goer, along with Dave Getrando. Another Dave.
    14:07
    And, yeah, if you like these wood rails and this really nice condition stuff, or old school like that, you've got to go to that show. It's not as, you said this show, every show has their own strengths, and this show has very much swapped me in. It's old school electromechanical. It's mostly, it's pretty dark. York. York, yeah. Right, well, some people might not know what we're talking about. Right. York, Pennsylvania, it's usually Columbus Day weekend. It's old school EM. That's the predominant. There's other machines, obviously. but like you said, it's a big swap meet it's kind of like pin fest, but more towards the EM realm and not as commercialized, you're not going to have any of the all the vendors it's more of a play and swap and get together I've never been it's a little closer than me going this weekend on Friday up to Allentown, but you're going to find out I guess tomorrow morning you go to Lancaster because it's not far from there. Oh, really? It's just near Lancaster, huh? Well, look for Matt. Okay. Okay, so you got another game to talk about? I got one. Yeah, you go. Go ahead. So I happened to play, before Benny started in the tournament, I happened to play him on Hot Hand.
    15:29
    And actually I did very well. I ended up beating Benny, so I felt pretty good. That put me in a good step. But this is a shout-out to Oh, Stern Hot Hand For those of you, sorry May 1979, 3,700 units Uh What else is on here Oh, it's on by Harry Williams Oh, I didn't know that Well, anyway, I'm putting a pitch out there Hey PJ, I know you're going to buy that Elton John Sell me your Hot Hand, raise a couple of bucks Hey, he might just do it I don't really think he has that game set up I don't think he's ever had the game set up Well, even better. Yeah, you can call that a card.
    16:08
    Harry Williams did a lot of games for Stern. Well, I like it because I don't have a card game. The only other card game I would buy, and you don't like it because of the psychedelic paint job, you like the EM version, is Blackjack. But I like that. So, anyway. But it used to be... We've got to get through this already. Everybody knows. It used to be cheap. It's not cheap anymore. Let's talk about not cheap games making me feel good. Because of these tournaments, showing off these old school games on the play. It's like, oh, I should get that game. So it brings in new interest. So shout out to Mark at the Rochester Finball Cooperative. Sorry, I'm going to spill the beans. He spent $3,200 on a pretty nice embryo. Made me feel good. Wow. So how nice was nice? Like how was the play? I didn't get to see it because it was packed in the truck. but he said it's pretty good. The, you know, the cabinet looked, you know, like it normally would, a couple of scrapes and bumps, but, you know, nothing bad. He said that the bonus area wasn't burned out. So he said there wasn't a lot of wear in the play field. So, you know, it might have been one of those games, stopped working, got tucked away, and, you know, survived. So it's worth, I mean, think about it. I said to him, I go, it's definitely worth it. I think I said it to you too. It's definitely worth buying a game like that because you don't have to do a play field swap. that's $1,100 plus all the work and time for a game that is not super popular. They didn't make a lot of them, but I wouldn't say it's a super popular game. I think it's becoming popular though, right? Sounds like it is. Well, they don't... They're adding games. They're going from 50 to 80 games at the co-op, I guess. They've got a whole new space.
    17:54
    They've been talking. It's been talked about on Ron and Bruce's show. So, I mean, yeah. is probably a cumulative game. So it's like five owners of the co-op. So it's cool. I mean... Where's the co-op at again? Rochester, New York. Yeah, the good thing about Embryon is Class of 81. Class of 81 Ballad. You know, there's all kinds of good games in there. Embryon's a nice game. It has sound effects from... It has a squawking talk board, so it sounds a little like 8-Ball Deluxe in there, a little bit of Fathom in there, and some other stuff going on in there. Well, through the cheese. we played it last night. Yes, we did. And we did do a recording. I'm not so sure that'll make the light of day, but we'll listen to it.
    18:40
    We're definitely going to do a show on it because Dave's here. I got the machine. We'll do an overview and we'll plug it into an upcoming show. How's that?
    18:48
    We're not going to put it in this show. Geez. We'll put it in another show. Okay. After we're done talking about Pinfest, you're going to talk about, we'll kick off What's Up, Doc. I'll kick it off. Okay. Alright, very good. I'll do the announcement and get us started. How's that? Okay, that sounds fair to me.
    19:09
    A stellar game to show was Counterforce. Godly Counterforce, somewhat restored. Real fun to play. It's basically based on, it's kind of like Space Invaders. Question. Yeah. Was that in the tournament or in the free play? Free play. You know who brought that game?
    19:27
    Kind of so. I remember him posting on Pinside. I don't remember who he was. Who's the guy who rents machines in Connecticut?
    19:34
    I don't know. Was she? Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That was his game. Well, they brought two counterforces. That might have been his. One restored one not. He showed a picture on the website that said, these were the 12 games I brought, and one of those was in a line with Space Shuttle, a bunch of other games. It wasn't that game. Okay. Sorry. Dr. Dave again at Penn's Fest 2024.
    20:01
    We are about 10 minutes from closing on Friday night. Some games are left. A lot of games are here. I'd say the game of the show, the gem of the show, is this Godly Counterforce from 1980. Real nice job that Jay Richards did on it. It's for sale, $39.50. Very tempted to buy this thing, but I don't get so many games than it is. but playing the game, we'll start the game here. And it's a fun little game, it's a timed game. You gotta hit the drop targets in time. It's like space amateurs, they keep coming down at you. And it's a nice game, nicely rebuilt, nice, it's like a new play field on here. Either that or it's very well touched up in clear coat. They're doing a nice job on it. And even the playfield rails, the wooden rails are nice too. We did some kind of red paint on it that looks like a nice little finish on it. Kind of matches the red inside the game as well. So a lot of attention to detail in this game. Did a nice job.
    21:14
    Still tempted to buy one, but it is a wide body, so it's a little tougher to sell for space-wise to put in the house. rubber bison is very happy with it I think you go into the tournament, a lot of fun so right now I'm trying to, the game is getting upset with me I need to get the drop targets down because the little space vaders are going to get angry they're getting close to me, and it's hitting me down here I keep missing the drop target I bet I get them within about 10 seconds That's not the way to do it.
    21:52
    Oh, they just got me. They just destroyed me. Four clippers on this game, too. It's kind of nice. Oh, so there we go. So that is counterforce.
    22:07
    And about five minutes to go before this place is closed for the night. It's Saturday morning. We start all over again.
    22:13
    I didn't know there were two. No, there were two there. So one was... One was really nice. One was like nice, I mean, real nice paint job on the outside. I know it's a new old stock play field. If it wasn't, it was a really well-touched up and cleared one.
    22:28
    Nice little LED treatments all around, I think. And it was fun to play it based on Space Invaders. You know, you hit some drop targets down out of the top bank there. It's that boom, boom, boom kind of thing. You see light starts to come down a little bit longer, and the whole next section of light starts coming down. So you've got to get the rest of the drop targets down on this timer. or otherwise it destroys your city or whatever. So what are the complementary games of the Godwood, right? System 1? System 80. Oh, System 80. So Spider-Man would be another one of them. Okay.
    22:57
    What else? Haunted House. Oh, okay, Widebody, right? Yep. Black Hole. Okay, Black Hole. Another Widebody. These are all Widebodies, by the way. Godly made a bunch of these System 80 Widebodies. I didn't know that either. Yeah. Circus. Another one. Don't know that one. Another sister game to Genie. kind of in red another wide body so they made some good stuff back in the time frame and done right it played really well it was nice to play nothing I would ever own but it's fun to play regardless I also found it really nice Joker poker that it was nice that it sits there I could have bought it right at the next level and you know because I know Jeff, my friend Jeff in Maine, wants one. So I even called him up and said, listen, I don't have the time or whatever to pick this up in space and do it for you, because I've got so many people ahead of you, but I'd consider doing it if you really want it. And I said, well, you know. How many more I get to know? It's like, I'm not going to sell you. I'm not going to beg you. I don't need to go do this. I don't need to do this. It's just a favor. So if you don't want me to do it, I ain't going to do it. No, that's okay. I got one for you. We both played it. What did you think of that Frontier we played? We don't see those for sale often. I let two beautiful ones go years ago. No, I know that. I hate you for that, because you're not a fan of the game, but I really... There are a lot of people that do like that game. I like the game to play once in a while. Would it be my go-to game in a corner? No. Obviously, you can keep it so it's not in your collection, so that says it all. Like, right now, your collection, the base right now you have here, my go-to, because I think it's a really fun game. Never mind the Centaur. I've had enough of Centaur for a good while. Well, we're going to come to that, though. Okay. Don't go there yet. Don't go there yet, okay. Don't go there yet. Yeah, folks, guess what? Another Centaur story. Yeah, another Centaur story. I'll go with one of the games I like to play, Hogglotron. That's a fun game. And mine's pretty good.
    25:06
    Plays well. I actually like to play it better than Paragon, actually. I don't know. I just think it's a little not as many long shots and a little more tighter game. I've been playing Paragon. That was the first time I played Harlem in a couple of months.
    25:23
    Even Jan said to me she goes, you haven't even been playing. I go, you know, the pool and all the other crap. Yeah, you go all that kind of stuff. I got a lot of other distractions. And it's nice out. It hasn't been, unfortunately. Today's actually the nicest day since you've been here. Yeah, we got some blue skies today. It stopped raining, thank God. Yeah, Indianapolis starts right around 3.30 here Oh, yes, right in front of you I don't know if everybody can hear it, but Oh, yeah Yeah, everybody, schools out Right People going to and from Right Do they hear that? They probably hear that They hear the lawnmower The lawnmower going So, is everybody going to make fun of us again? You guys did an action, George But are people going to make fun of us again? No, it has a real-time feel of Or is it just they don't like it when the music spikes They don't like when the music spikes or when all of a sudden our voices spike and it's all distorted. But also understand, folks, I don't, and I should, but I don't listen to the podcast on headphones. When I'm editing, I'm editing in real time on like an iPad. So those spikes in sound, I'm sorry, just kind of don't translate through the iPad as much as something that's sticking in your ear. exactly that's why when I the first part of this podcast was only like about 10 minutes and I just said yo let me just I'm using new software but we're recording next to each other when was the last time we did that's true we did a little bit at fantastic that's true it's tougher on zoom and that kind of thing but I just wanted to see recording on audacity is what I do now I got levels I can see the levels while we're recording you know if I really want to do it well you put the headphones on and all that stuff so you really can But what I did is I listened to what we did so far, and nothing popping, nothing blowing people's ears off, nothing like, I've got to turn up to maximum volume so I can hear these guys. I can't hear them. So the problem is some people can hear you, and they can't hear you too much. And understand all the different sources. I didn't go into that either. All the different sources we used in the last show. You had it on a phone. I had it on a phone. You had it on a computer. you know, it was all different sources, and that's hard to balance out. Do you want to hear some feedback from our last episode? Oh, go ahead. It's not just about sound, it's also about some content, which I Oh, okay. Well, content I can always take. Which I agree. I agree with this guy. Okay, I'll take criticism if that's what it is. So, and I've heard this a couple times from people. So here's a, this is from Mark. He's a methos on Pinside. Yeah, but we've heard from him multiple times. I know, but he's a good guy. He's like a Well, he's not afraid. He's not afraid. Giving his accurate feedback. I like that. So he said, hey, guys, I just finished the last episode of Pintastic. Boy, he just did something. Let's do some rock harvest, then. Yeah, wow. How's that blade going to do? Are you going to sharpen that blade, dude? That's not too good. If you start seeing a projectile, probably the way to die. You might hear it at the house. So I just finished an episode of Pintastic. Loved it. Although the guy that ran the tycoon or the tycoon arcade who talked with George wasn't very interesting.
    28:35
    And a bit long. But Eric always makes things interesting. Ha ha. Eric Stone. It's called, look. Drama. Look.
    28:45
    I did a solid to somebody who opened an arcade. Everybody sits there and, I'm not going to use the word, but everybody complains that they don't have access to a good arcade. Those machines that man brought to the show were outstanding. Oh, he definitely did. And he should get accolades for it. So, hey, look, you know what it's called? Sorry, fast forward.
    29:11
    I'm not going to put timestamps in there, but put it on double, triple, quadruple time. Listen to it go, and then listen to the next segment. I think people have to get through that to get to the meat. You get the Eric Cronin. Right, but, you know, you got to choose. It was a giant, well, let's say what it was. It was a giant infomercial. That's what it was for him. Yeah. Well, I kind of love the guy. He's doing some show somewhere in Chicago or somewhere in the Midwest. We will pay you. We will feed you. We'll give you a goodie bag of all kinds of stuff. I'm like, wow, if I lived in the area, I don't even like that stuff. That sounds like a lot of fun. I don't know what kind of people would join. Hey, we feed you. How does that work? They put on some kind of show. I'll see if I can bring it up. I saw it somewhere. This is where? In Nashville? No. They do, like, the game board show somewhere for all their... Let me see if I can bring it up.
    30:09
    But he doesn't want me to do another interview. Yeah, no, no, no. We don't want to talk about game boards. Okay, okay. I was being polite to the man. Right. I enjoyed playing his games. he was nice to me. Done. And no one's nice to George. So that's why... No! Right!
    30:27
    Look, look, okay. Let's take this off. I should bring this off. I'm going to bring it off. Just wait. I got a couple comments on this too And it good Surrounds fact How many times have I told our audience do not come to us for reliability of information Do not. Dave, yes. We're going to tell a story, and I'm going to tell... We'll get to that. Yeah, get to it. There's a lot of stuff going on here.
    30:58
    As always, we're never organized. We get no notes for this. Did you notice I don't have a notebook? I have notes. I still got to figure some stuff. Oh, boy. Another truck. Here we go. Wine truck. Going to wine country. I'll finish this guy's thought. Mark's thought. Okay.
    31:15
    Sorry. I have seen the neighbor in action. Do you refer to him as the neighbor? No. Oh, okay. To protect whatever. The cat's already out of the bag. It's out of the bag. But I'm going to say I've seen the neighbor. Did he give you a look? He gave you a wink. Do you like shoes? I don't know. I just was like, I'm in on it. Maybe that was it. I'm on to your hijinks. Or maybe it was an FU. I don't know. He said, I've seen the neighbor in action. I think the guy is a major piece of work.
    31:51
    Welcome to pinball. Wow. There's a lot of personality. I can't stand the guy for various reasons. And to learn he and Eric don't get along is no surprise.
    32:01
    Okay. Said, I love the play-by-play of Pentastic. I can imagine it was a lot of fun. It sounds like George hit the refreshments a bit early on Friday. I've been there.
    32:13
    Guilty as charged. Did you guys like Pulp Fiction? Not bad for an early SS throwback. Only thing I don't like about it, it's too easy. I can't stand long playing games. Give me classic sterns or even some valleys like Dolly and Flash Gordon to kick my ass any day over that game.
    32:31
    Yes. Yeah, I agree. Yes. Now, Dolly, Dolly Parton, talked to Jeff in Maine, and he had that game, the first game they ever bought, and he destroys that game now. He said that game is easy. But I don't know. I don't think it's that. We're going to find out soon because that's coming up soon. Yeah, I'm bummed that I'm not going to be up that way to play it.
    32:54
    I'm looking for one, but so is everybody else. That game was a dime a dozen a couple years ago. No one wanted that game.
    33:01
    Nobody wanted it. It's like everything else. We get it. It gets its time. It gets its comeuppance. Okay.
    33:08
    What else? Let's wrap up. Any more comments? We went on the comment tangent. What? Another truck. That's a pretty cool little truck. I don't know what kind of truck that is. I don't know either. Let's see. How about from Bruce, maybe?
    33:23
    Bruce? Yeah, the Bruce. Which Bruce? That's Bruce from Arizona. Who was originally from... Oh, not the Bruce. D. Bruce. Well, no. Our number one fan. D. Bruce would be night in jail, but our Bruce. Our Bruce. How about our Bruce? Our fan. Our Bruce. Oh, you haven't heard from him? I haven't talked to him in a long time.
    33:43
    How's he doing? He's doing well. He likes being out in Arizona. Originally, again, he was from down in East Ham, Cape Cod. And he likes it out there. Getting a lot of sun, I guess. Doing the postal service thing. Hi Bruce He says, hey guys I'm listening to more Alright, go away truck After the prodding of you saying Hey, you listen to our podcast lately? Because I haven't heard from you in a while Okay, I've been busy, I'm going to start listening to some more So I said, okay, I'm listening more now To the podcast, wow I never really had a problem with the neighbor But he does sound like a whiny bitch From what Eric is saying I mean the whole touching thing I have no idea it wasn't there don't touch me there yeah don't touch me there do you know that song? I do who is it? the tubes? ding ding ding ding wow hold on have you seen him? no multiple times okay I told you that story that's a good story well you can't have that but you can't have this that one right so Feeway Bill is the front man okay and I saw him at the Tupelo in the front row.
    34:59
    And there were two guys sitting next to me, and the guy went and grabbed the set list off the stage. That's how close we were? Wow. Fee Wayville jumped up and got in this guy's grill. And I thought I was going to see a cat fight in the front row. It was like, wow, I even have more respect for you now. This guy grabbing it to grab and run? No, grab it because he wanted it as a souvenir. Oh, wow. And he was like, that's called you ass. You don't take. He got right in his grill.
    35:34
    Wow. Yeah, I can't even say it. I can't. Way too much. Expletive exploit. But I mean, like, literally six inches from the guy's face. I'm like, all right, there you go. Then he goes, speaking more about the Eric and neighbor drama, I mean, the whole touching thing. I have no idea. It wasn't there, although it does sound absurd. But Eric standing too close? I watched the games on Twitch. I think Venom and or The Shadow, and like Eric said, he was standing like five feet behind and to the side. There's no way the neighbor could have seen him, even in the most peripheral of peripheral vision, unless he looked away from the game he was playing, which would be ridiculous in its own right.
    36:13
    So that was Bruce's take on it. I think also Bruce, I thought Bruce said something about it being a little loud or whatever. Oh, here we go. Yeah, let's see. Uh-oh. Yeah, he said... Uh-oh. Okay, he said, let's see.
    36:29
    Okay, Bruce said, oh my God, you guys need a volume warning on this one. Going from cranking volume to max and still not enough to diving for the controls as my eardrums get blown out on that segment.
    36:43
    So there you go. I'm sorry, Bruce. He said, I continue to watch the video. Very impressed Meteor play by Eric and that other kid. Oh, the kid. George tearing the background for the bonus was great.
    37:00
    Oh, I think the worst one was a transition to that brass band, quote-unquote, concert you guys were at. Yeah, quote-unquote, concert.
    37:11
    What, he didn't like the band? No. I don't think a lot of people like that band. It's just... Oh, come on, that's funny.
    37:23
    It really doesn't have to be perfect, but that level of difference is crazy. I get the multiple sources thing, but it can't be that hard to normalize one. We are working on it. Hopefully this will be the one that's going to be correct.
    37:35
    Okay, we've taken notes. I'm not doing that again. So, changing gears, Did Eric get screwed on Jaws at Pintastic, or was that a previous event? No, that's a previous event. No, that was a previous event. It's out online somewhere, Bruce. He also commented on Looney Tunes. I said, hey, you got a Looney Tunes out there in Arizona? And I said, you mean Bugs Bunny Birthday Bash 2? Okay. He said, not blown away by that, but no way as bad as Birthday Bash, he said.
    38:08
    So I said, oh, well, I'm not saying it's great. Believe me, just different levels of crap is all. Oh, yeah, let's give a shout-out. Sorry. Hey.
    38:18
    Okay, let's be nice for a minute. Okay. Do we have to? Yes, we do. I'm sorry I don't remember your real first name, but Fugg from Spooky was at Spooky Booth. I went over and, you know, said hello and, you know, some glad-handling. let's just say he's a really nice kid I like him let's move to the next one I will say there are lines to play the game there are lines to play everything people are playing playing playing for all the new games I'm going to say it one more time folks if you want to play games go to Fintastic if you want to buy games and parts and play some pinball go to Pinfest. They are two entirely different shows. Two different things. Both are good. Both have their place. Yeah. Every show has their own little strength, you know?
    39:23
    So speaking of Pinfest, George, I have a wonderful interview with the founder, Ivan. What did the founder say? She said more of the... What's Ivan's last name? Oh, my. You've got to put me on the spot here.
    39:37
    Sorry. It doesn't matter. Ivan with a lot of confidence. Right. Ivan's not the founder. What do you call it? He's the curator, the current... The director. The director, the current owner. He's the captain of the ship. Captain of the ship at this point, yes. He took over from other people when they were kind of going away and said, someone needs to take the show over and say, hey, pick me. I'll do it. So he did, and here's his story. Enjoy. All right, this is Dr. Dave here. We are at Pinfest 2024, and we're with Ivan.
    40:07
    Lysagonis. I just forgot his name. I see you spelling your name. It's like, how do I pronounce that? So I'm glad you did. So tell us about how you got started in this whole madness, and how you got into pinball and metal, your story. Well, that's a pretty easy one. I bought one. So I didn't know who to go to about how to fix it, but I have a tech background. So I started playing with the machine and I realized I could repair those issues. And it didn't seem to matter how complicated they were, I was able to resolve them. So I built up some confidence playing with this one game I bought. It was Apollo 13. Oh, okay, yeah. So, I gave it to guys listening because it's the best story of all. So, I bought my second one on eBay. It was a shack attack. Okay. And I was reading the description of what was wrong with it. And I looked at the schematics. The schematics were still available online back then. They didn't pull them off. What year was this feed about? 2000, 2001. Okay. So, I called the guy. I already agreed to buy the game. I called the guy and he told me, he said, hey, I've been doing this for 30 years. It's not what you think it is. I thought it was a simple bridge. Right. So the game shows up at my house, but I'm thinking I bought myself a big doorstop. I'm in trouble. Yeah. Well, I stuck to my guns. I put in the bridge I thought was bad. Yeah. And I had the thing working in 10 minutes. Beautiful. All right. So the moral is, well, it's not a moral, but the point is that if someone who had been doing it for 30 years couldn't fix it, and I fixed it before it even got to my house, maybe this was for me.
    41:58
    And to be honest, it was this show that got me, took me to the next level. So I started buying them and found I enjoyed working on them way more than actually playing them. So you're a background. You had some tech school and you had some other stuff going on. Yeah, I did some social security electronics. I traveled all over the world as a guy who fixed equipment for a manufacturer. And I ended up doing some design work, implementing that equipment. I was familiar with the barcode scanners and things like that. So I did all that. This was a hobby. and it was actually this show where I was standing in line at Pinball Resource. Okay. I said to him, I was talking to his wife, he had overheard me say, if I could figure out how to make a living just doing this, this is all I'd do. Yeah. And he said, go meet the promoter, and the rest was history.
    42:55
    Wow. And I built it from there. So, yeah, it's been a long haul, but I stayed with him because of the passion. I love the game and I love to work on them. And now the opportunities to restore them, the networking, the buying and selling, you understand that passion. We've been doing it as long as it takes.
    43:18
    So, yeah, our paths are not that different. Right. Yeah, because I started, I mean, I'm kind of a background, too. I got some engineering, some tech school, a little of that, some field service work, that kind of thing. So same kind of backgrounds. And I got bitten by the pinball bug, too. I got rid of my day job, and I'm just going to do this full time, making a living at it. It's great. I really love this show you have going on. I've been coming to this show. I can't remember when I first started going to this show, but it definitely was. This show, a couple years back, I think before you took it over, it was next door, the flea market that you have over here. Yeah, the annex. The annex. That was what it was. And before that, it was the firehouse or it was something else? No, it was the square. Okay. So I tried to go to this show at that square. That's where I was going to. Now, what year would that be? Do you remember? I want to say 2000, maybe 1999, 2000. Okay. They were doing it in Merchant Square. Okay. And then it only lasted a few years. Yeah. And then they migrated over here. Okay. Wow. So that's long. I was a vendor here, and I became friends with the promoters. Yeah. And they were the ones who hooked me up with the local operators that I could, who were getting service calls. Sure. wanted to do six more games but they were too expensive to just buy sure you know and before they take up space they didn't have a main house right so i reached out i figured if i had to figure out how to fix it i didn't know who to go to right and then i realized i could i'm like i wonder if there's a lot of other people out there that needed their help here in the lehigh valley there's a thousand pinball machines in people's homes oh wow and uh i do all that service yeah because I just mentioned to someone or someone overheard me say when they brought me to an operator he had a whole tablet of phone numbers with customers calling and complaining he had sold pinball machines here in the area for 30 years so it's remarkable the stuff I find it's all most of the stuff he sold I get the calls to repair them, I get the calls to buy them Yeah. So you have a pretty good collection yourself? You get a touch of any age? Not much anymore. I had a bunch of stuff in the shop. Stuff comes and goes. Yeah. I've been parking some pretty new turns in my collection. Okay.
    45:36
    Got a Godzilla. Had one just brought up here from North Carolina. Nice. I dropped it off. I put an Elvira in the house. Okay. But I've had pretty much everything. Yeah. So to me, that's probably the only downfall is when you make this your business, you hash it. tends to go away. It's enthusiasm about owning lots of games. It's true.
    46:05
    During COVID, I had a big collection, and I used to bring up here the show for everybody to enjoy. And during COVID, we didn't have a show. All these games were sitting in a warehouse. I didn't know when the next show was coming. I was worried about water damage from maybe a first bite. fire, fat, and so I sold most of the collection. And then now I have a couple, but of course I get emotional when I play. And of course I carry on like a baby when things aren't working my way. This is why we don't have them tonight. Because I can't behave myself. You knee in the coin door, are you? You're kind of kicking the door a little bit? I don't want to do that. I want the game. It's like $10,000. Right, right, right. But sometimes I'm pretty rough with them. One time they made a shirt where they had the plumb-up drop, and they were like, you know, Finn Ivan. Okay, right, right. I really like, you know, drop the plumb-up, the hell out of them. Sure, sure. My stuff, that's my stuff. Okay. So how long have you had this show now? How long have you been doing this show? I started at Merchants Square in 2009, and I did two shows in 2009 and 2010. So there were real small shows. Okay. But everybody loved it, and we had just finished 2010 when the former promoters here decided they were no longer doing the show. Okay. And actually it was the community that reached out and said, well, what are your thoughts about him taking over that show? Yeah. Former promoters didn't give me the show or spell it to me or anything like that. They basically walked away. Oh. I just happened to have the inside track, and then I drove to take it over. So it was going to go away until you stepped up. It was going to be gone? Wow. I mean, I'm not sure if it would have actually gone away. Someone else would certainly have stepped up.
    48:11
    They were just as passionate about pinball as I am. So we love what we do. And clearly, we have the most supportive community anywhere. And I never like people to think there's something magical about what I'm doing here. I'm really just the custodian of the show.
    48:31
    It's the contribution by the whole community that makes this possible. Without them, without the vendors, we can't do it. Right. But it takes a little effort in doing the show. Yeah.
    48:47
    I challenge anybody. You think you can do it? Why don't you show us? Right, right. Some guys have pulled it off. Gabe's doing a great job. Yep. I still love going to York. Yep. Go there. Yep. So I go. I'll probably be at Expo this year again. Okay. So I'll bounce around. People are getting it done. Yep. But it's not easy. Yeah. By no means. So you kind of prepare like almost a year ahead. So when you're done with this show, you're right away? The one thing about being a show promoter, at least for me, I can't speak for the others, is I live with it every day. Yeah. That I think about the show. Okay. I think about how I can improve it, what issues can come up, what can we do. I listen to the complaints. Yeah. Some of them are valid and we try to address those problems every year. So I'm forever thinking about it. I'll find a game or I'll acquire a game and I'm like, gee, would that be a great example to take to the show? Right. Something like that. So I live with it. But the preparation of the show is probably six months. Okay. We start, I'll go down to York in the fall. We'll play around down there. I can actually enjoy a show because I'm just a vendor. Sure. And then after that we start thinking about it. By January we start inquiring with all the vendors about whether they're going to come back again this year. Which most of them have already been with me and most of the places sold out or virtually full without much effort. So, then it's getting the guys to bring pre-play games. That's challenging. Yeah. You filled the hole pretty well. Some years, I think you told me that you almost had to deny people from coming in. They don't pre-register. We're full up. Right? In a couple years, doesn't it happen? That happened to us last year for whatever reason, that we were full. Yeah. And a lot of guys have a habit of not registering their games. Right. So what happened last year, it might have been mid-April, maybe first week in April, I had to make a decision. So I had a very light registration and I decided to chop some of the space to make vendor space out of it. Okay. Like, I'm not going to let it vacant. No. I could use it. Exactly. It's revenue that the show brings in. Sure. So I allocated that space accordingly and then all of a sudden there was this rush of gains. And then, we had a bunch of guys having an empty house just showing up with their games, thinking they could roll it right in. Well, when I allocated that real estate, I didn't have enough space. So we had to turn them away. Including a kid that was really heartbroken because he's come every year, he's never registered. never registered, his mom drops him in the game all of a sudden and he comes in here. So the guys said, well that's a real shame, but what can we do? So this year they were more organized because we spoke out and said, hey, don't be that guy. Bring in the game, register the game. So it was a lesson for people at that point, registering ahead of time. But this year we didn't get full, so we had about 200 this year. They had room for probably 20 more. Oh, that's good. But it didn't come out. You know, they didn't, for whatever reason. The show's impossible to predict.
    52:26
    You know, people say, well, how's it looking? I go, oh, it looks okay, but it's a living, breathing thing. And it responds to just how it, you know. And it depends on the weather, too, right? Would you find the rainy weather to be better for the show? More people come with the rain ones? We found, unless it's a different trend, what it seemed like. I think last year was a really nice weekend. Well, last year, 2023, was the best Friday ever. I think there might have been like 2,000 people, something like that, or close to it, which is the highest Friday we had ever had. Right. But then Saturday, it was a beautiful hour. Right. And on Saturdays, mostly families and players who come. Okay. Well, because it was beautiful, we only brought in maybe $1,500 or something lower. It was lower when traditionally Saturday had always been the busier day. It didn't work out that way last year. Okay. So weather may have had something to do with it, but it isn't a subject. I would have to see that happen a couple years, you know, but historically, I don't know, it just gets rain. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And we got rain today. Right. So was our attendance up a little bit more today? I don't know yet. Plus with the online ticket sales. Yeah, that's a new thing this year, too. That seemed to work out really well. Before you had some long lines, people were getting a little bit antsy to come in or whatever, but you did the new ticketing thing and seemed to make things go quick, right? Well, we understood.
    54:02
    We were running into a problem where, again, Friday, all the collectors, enthusiasts, opportunists, all want to be here all at the same time. So we had a line probably three football fields off for like three hours. And it's really not appropriate. And it scares people away. So we decided to go to online ticketing and change the hours. And we still had 2,000 people that wanted to be here all at the same time, but we were able to get them all in in 45 minutes. That's awesome. So we came up with the idea of pre-banding people who had pre-purchased their tickets. Started that at 9 o'clock. Told them, go to the fairgrounds, do whatever you want to do. Come back at 10, show me your bracelet, you're in. But they still chose the lineup for like a free football field. But we got them all in in like 15 minutes. And I just, you know, they just heard it in here. Like, open up the gates. So I think everybody, for the most part, was happy. It'll always be planned out there. Always, always, yeah. But, hey, we opened two hours earlier, and no one waited out there longer than, they were in here in 45 minutes. But everybody that was waiting was in right away. This was just more people checking in. So, just what seems to be the hang-up is everybody's coming all at the same time. Right. And they all want to get here first. Yes, yep. Get a deal is what's up. So yeah, they're looking for that game, that's what they seek, or that part, or whatever it is that's coin-op related that they're looking for. And the cool thing about this show versus other shows, I find it's more like a heavy on the swap meet kind of thing.
    55:49
    Buying and selling, a lot of that going on. You've got a tournament that goes on. And it's a great kind of pinball flea market hangout kind of show. Would you say so?
    56:01
    What I say about this show is calling it a show is almost a stretch. It seems to be one big swap and shop. Right, yeah. But it has all the other ingredients that make it attractive, meaning that you can play the new games. They're here for the vendors to bring it.
    56:23
    The tournament's here because that's its own opportunity. Right. And competition is part of this hobby. And the fact that this show has been conditioned to be a mind-selling show, that everybody wants to be here because that's what's most important. You can play all the games. You can see lots of games. Lots of collectors bring something they may have restored over the winter. And then we all come together in this place and watch it unfold. And I'm proud to get to manage that. and to watch what goes on inside and the craziness with the threads. Yeah, oh yeah. Everybody and their brother, you and me included. Right, yep. I got this I could sell. Could you use that? Right. And I started looking around. That thread was so out of control. I was looking around my shop. I'm like, well, I got all these legs, these brand new legs that I had for years. And I was able to recapture some of those dollars and get rid of that stuff. It was taking up space. Exactly. So, it's, I'm very fortunate that I get to do this and it really has exploded to be what it is. How many people are on your team? You have a lot of volunteers. How many people do you have with you? Oh, I think I have probably a dozen, maybe a dozen, maybe a little over that. Yeah. Okay. I got a pretty big crew up here at the front gate to help get people in. And I got guys helping unload, managing the floor. We manage the power. We got guys that are managing the flea market.
    58:03
    It's all my people. And I take very good care of them. They come back every year. Yeah, I see the same faces every year. Well, yeah, and I don't have to retrain them. Right. I don't have volunteers. I pay everybody. Right. But they're very skilled and they know what I expect and they're committed to protecting the show. Awesome. I can see they've got some loyalty going on. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, some of them are legacy. Some of them were with the former promoters, maybe two or three. But the crew I have, I'm careful about who I allow to do it. And they really have to be that guy that's committed to making the show enjoyable for people. Sure. So even though, you know, we get, sometimes we do get a little nasty with those who break the rules. Yep, yep. But, you know, if we try to be politically correct and say, well, this is why. Right, right. This is why the rules are in place and this is what we do. Because it's for the greater good. Yeah, yeah. Sure. There's a guy that paid to come in here and play. You can't just take your game out of here when you feel like it. He brought it here because he wanted to sell it, but help us out as an example. But there's lots of examples. My team knows how to handle that. We handle power distributions. I don't think we've ever had a brownout unless someone did something really crazy. But my guys know how to distribute power equally so that the games aren't overloaded, outlets aren't over loaded, people are lazy standing, outlet strips, crazy things like that. Right, right. Anyway. Cool. Well I just want to say you do a fantastic job. Love coming to the show every year. Well thank you for the support. We do it because everybody supports us and we're very, very fortunate. Let me be the first to say thanks. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks, Ivan. All right. Take care. Okay. Take care.
    60:21
    We're back, folks. And I have a personal story to talk to you about regarding my partner, Dr. Dave. All right. As you've heard, Doc is here visiting for a couple of days with his lovely wife.
    60:41
    And it was my opportunity to corner him, not let him out of the basement. Hey, the basement. We haven't done the basement. Right. So it's not the basement. It's the new basement. So Dave got a chance to see my new basement with all my machines. And I cornered him and I said, Dave, here we are. Centaur, 19th. 19th time we've talked about this it doesn't work Dave shocking it doesn't work for those of you who are new and those of you who are old you heard me say that if there was one game that was going to be non when it came into the house it would be Centaur because of the complexity of the ball trough Right. Exactly. Right? Stated correctly? The TIA ball trough. So, enter Dave. Pick up the play field, put the prop stand underneath, and go. And so first thing I said, well, first thing, before we do the prop stand, I say, let's just try. Let's play it. I'm going to take the glass off. Let's see what you're experiencing because sometimes the customer will give me a rundown of what's going on. You're now a customer? Yes, you're a customer. You're a friend customer. What do you call that?
    62:07
    A freebie. That's good. No, no, no, no. That's true. I wasn't didn't take a dance we went out to dinner last night I was like Janice that's true I'm a good host I'm not a taker I didn't expect it at all I was just saying hey putting this up here for a couple days I'll give you the service all day long no problem we'll get to that in a moment you're not getting out of this Oh, boy. Okay. So I said, okay, let's see what the owner, say never mind the customer, the owner of the game, let's say. Let's see what he's saying and what I'm seeing. So I, you know, rolled the ball around. I hit the Orbs targets. It shot a ball up, but kind of weekly, you know.
    63:00
    Not monthly, but weekly, very weekly. So another ball came out, next one weaker, you know. Right. It wouldn't put it up into the lane area. Yeah, it just kind of dribbled out. Kind of dribble it out and then come down that lane on the right-hand side with the flippers. Right. And Dave said, has this happened before?
    63:22
    Did I say that? Yeah, you did. And I said, sort of. Sort of. Yeah. Sort of. I go, it's never been super strong, but it worked. Oh, yeah. Okay. So it's never really punched it out hard. No. Okay. So it's always like, okay. Yeah. So I kind of forget that detail. I think we had a couple beers, too, when we were doing this text work. I don't know. Probably. Like we're doing right now. Like right now. Yeah, the show is going to get a little bit more lively. Exactly. A little more, maybe some more expletives. Who knows?
    63:48
    So, I say, okay, one ball came out in that ball. Let's make another ball. Another ball came out. I think the third one, I think the third one came out, but then try the ball number four. Uh-uh. It's, we said, hey, it's going to launch a ball. Like I said, all the machinations to launch a ball. I didn't hear any little, I know how this game, We'll get to that too Every little sound We'll get to feeling sad Folks Look Dave is a good friend He can take it It is hard having him Come to your home and play your games I try very hard to do A good job I am nowhere near Nor do I plan to be anywhere near him We'll get to it There's a couple of things that happen And I'm just like oh my god stop We went upstairs I couldn't take it I'm like, come on, we're done. You know what? Right. Because you know what? I am very detail-oriented and very observant, and I see it all. It's like if you know your craft. Like a rat in a cage. Right. You know, if you went to a classic car guy and said, tell me all about this classic car. I have one of those, too. Right. It's never ask him. I tell Dave, you never ask him. But you're getting. How do you like my car? It will be the same to Dave. How do you like my pinball? I like never ask him that question. Never. I want the truth. The whole truth. That would be what I would say. If you want the truth, you ask those people. If you don't want the truth, keep your trap shut. Exactly. Never ask the question. Exactly. So I'm basically, you know, when you go for a body scan in the hospital, and they scan your body, it's like, oh, it looks good. Oh, there's some issues there. So I kind of give your game a little body scan kind of thing, the centaur. And, you know, and I found out that the balls didn't want to come out after like two or three balls anymore. It's like, okay, I'm not even hearing it even trying to, but I hear you talking about doing that, but it's not doing it. So I said, okay, now we can lift the hood. Let's see what's going on. So problem number one is a bushing, a white bushing, which is the same as a flipper bushing. Actually, that whole launching ball thing. Yeah, you've got to talk about that. Because there's a frame with a flipper, sort of a flipper mech. It is a flipper mech on there, yep. Right. And it is the same kind of arcing thing, a flipper, the same kind of flipping arc, whatever. Instead, it's got a plunger on the end. Instead, it has a little launcher plunger on the end. Like a flat... Like a flat thing that kind of... A catapult, let's say. Catapult? Yeah, better. And it catapulted out this whole little thing. Like, basically, a... Like a habit trail? Habit trail underneath the subway. With the flat. So, this is for all the people that don't own this game. Yeah, subway. This is... Folks, this is above my pay grade. I... That's why it's been sitting for how many months? Six months? Waiting for Dave to finally come. And I forgot all about it until he ambushed me. Hey, Centaur. It's like, okay, so let's hit this. And I was a little bit kind of like, oh, I don't know, because last Centaur I was working on. Right, you ended it off to John Day. At one point it's like, okay, I don't know. So then John dialed it in. That was more of a physical problem with a bent assembly. So that was a whole different thing. At least George's wasn't that bent assembly weird stuff. But it did have three problems, three distinct problems with this launching mech, why it wasn't having a bad day. So, the first thing was a flipper mech there, a flipper plate, and a plunger, link, and the white bush. So, I decided, let's shake the white bush a little bit. It's like, oh, there's a lot. I started turning the white bush. Well, that's turning and shaking. That's not good. I was supposed to be solid. I was like, okay, this thing has actually been fractured. This thing's broken forever, probably. It probably just started showing up now. I would never. Folks, number one thing I learned. look at everything, touch everything, feel everything. And I would never, ever, ever, because I've never had one broken. I mean, yeah, you get a used play field or something, or a game that's been abused, but I'm saying, for the most part, you really don't look at that. Most games you do, the flippers, you replace it. Quite honestly, I kept my distance from this mech. It always worked. I'm like, just don't touch it. Don't do anything. because if you touch it, you might not get it back to where it was. How's that? That's good. If it's working, if it's not working, not working well, then you've got to go for it.
    68:13
    I'm doing the finger thing, guys. No, not that finger. This finger. The two fingers. The quotes.
    68:21
    Yeah, it worked, kind of. Kind of. So, first thing first, okay, George, do you have any of these? Because I brought with me tools. I didn't bring any parts. Yes, George has parts What does George have Dave? A parts room Which is great, so they do have any of these white bushings As a matter of fact, they do have these white bushings Great, bring them out I gotta go find them But the good thing, he did label his boxes So that's good, that made it easier So he found those, got a bag of them First one I tried, put it in there It's a little stiff, so whoever made this one bushing The tolerance was too tight And now the thing is not spinning around like it should It's not loose. It's, you know, it's vacuum, what do you call it, injected plastic. Injected plastic. So they're not doing any testing. The thing goes out for a buck. No, for a buck or whatever they cost, I mean. Throw it out, try again. Exactly. You're never going to use it. So I went to bushing number two. Yes, way better. And then I put it on there and said, okay, nice and tight and nice in the way it should be and put it together. And now, yeah, then at that point I said, well, It's a little bit loosey-goosey, but that part works. So let's try it that way. Let's just see what happens now. Now I do it. Okay, now we're getting ball. The launch is better. It's not perfect. A little bit. Sometimes it's strong. Sometimes it's a little bit weak, but it's better than it was. Okay. So we're getting better. Let's go back underneath again. Underneath again. Now I'm seeing some kind of cacorama. Let's talk about what it is. Okay. I'll post a picture on Pinside on one of the Centaur cars. It's a Baltrop. Three switches. It's a cherry switch with a... A long arm. Right. And an incorrect arm. Right. And the incorrect switch. Right. And I don't even know how to describe it. I can describe it. I'm going to put a picture. Well, it's got that bend. I can describe it. Yeah, I'll describe it. So, basically, this Baltrop is unique on Centaur. I'm not saying the Baltrop. I'm saying that... Well, no, but that's part of all. Right. There's three switches. Right. There's an entry. Well, there's an out-hole switch. There's an entry switch. There's a middle switch. And there's a final switch at the end that if a ball is there, it knows, okay, there's one more ball that you can launch as an orb. And if that ball is sitting on that switch, it'll shoot it to the little catapult deal, launch it in the subway, out, and it's at the top of the plate until it comes. Well, if I come to find out someone had a problem with this switch at the very end before it goes to the catapult, and they replaced the switch, multiple problems that they did. Instead of two screws, they only had one screw on it because this kind of switch wouldn't fit that way because it was the wrong switch. It was a cherry switch with a blade. Well, cherry switches are okay. Right, but it had a blade on it and a button. Well, it had a button. The button is like, let's go in the ammunition and gun department here. You want like a hair trigger pull, or you want a really hard pull on that trigger. So the other ones in that trough were hair trigger, just the ball. And they're also just like the. Just like a coin mac. On the coin mac. With a thin wire. Yeah, thin wire. Right. And just not much to make it go. This thing had a cherry switch with a button on it and someone in a long, a long twisted metal arm thing. They had to kind of fit in there. Like a blade. and it worked for the longest time for you until now it didn't. Now this thing had multiple failures. I say, okay, that ain't right. I don't want to mess with that thing because it's hacked from day one. Bubblegum and tape that some tech did way back when.
    72:06
    What else? I said, George, go back to Mr. Park's box. What else you got? I've got to interrupt. I keep thinking, what was that, you know, on Saturday morning cartoons they had, you know, the government thing, all those different, like, learn about the government, how a bill is passed, that thing. Oh, yeah. All I keep thinking is, there's three switches, but one doesn't belong.
    72:29
    Something like that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Right? One of these things is not like the other. There you go. I knew it. There you go. So, thin wire, thin wire, blade. My buddy John, John Toth, if you're out there, man, got a podcast, haven't seen you in a long time. Shout out. He fixed it with my buddy Jack. When I bought that game. People have already heard that whole story. Go back to our Centaur episode. And that's all he had was that game. Or that's what he already had. But you've got to talk about how the blade was hitting the ball and how the thin wire could hit the ball. I'll tell you what. I was going to get into that. So, basically, when you have the whole trough full of four balls, one ball in the playfield, right? All the weight from those balls are pushing on the whole line of balls, and that last stupid switch was not supposed to be there with the long blade on it. It had enough pressure from those balls to weight it down, so it hit it. Now, throw a couple balls out of there, now you only have two balls that are resting on the switch, not enough weight to make that switch go down the way it's supposed to. So how I found the problem was with the playfield in the playing position down, playing the game, I went in through the coin door, and I saw it, I saw the ball sitting on it, and it was not sitting on it all the way, and I just kind of pressed on the switch a little bit, and then it made the ball come out when I hit the orb thing, and it launched the ball. Okay, definitely that switch is not being made, not enough weight on the switch, or basically the switch is too strong, you know, it's not the right switch, need more of a hair trigger. Okay, that switch is coming out, we're not putting that thing back in there. So, George, what else you got? So, George came up with a bag, of other cherry switches that are coin door switches, which are perfect because that has the same little wire that the other trough thing does, but the wire orientation, the wire... Had to be bent a certain way. Certain way, and not like the other two are more straightforward because they're sitting on one side of the trough. This last one sits on the other side of the trough, so the wire just can't be this straight out like the other ones. It was like a wall of metal. They had to get around. Had to get around. Dave didn't have a good picture. he understood the physics or mechanics of how this thing should have been put in. Now, folks, this is why I'm chirping. Look, he's my friend. Take it for what it's worth.
    74:59
    He's got eyes everywhere. He knows these games in and out. If you have an issue, he's the guy. He's the Bally guy. Call him what he is. He does a lot of other things, but that's all I collect, so all I can do is give you my opinion. Oh, Valley Stern will even do it all. Right, but you have, but, you know. Experience. The last thing, and we figured that out, but we'll come to that at a later time, is Dave was like, he was looking at a board in my game, a soundboard. He goes, did I lose care of that soundboard? I completely forgot about it. I'm like, yeah, you did. He goes, yeah, that looks like my board. But we'll get to some other weird things in a few minutes. He's, like I said, if you want your games fixed and just get out of your basement, Let him do his thing. You don't want to be there to hear the comment. Let's just let him do it. There you go. Let me do it. Let me do my thing. I know what I'm doing. I got it down. And if I don't, I have engineering friends I can actually touch base with. You've got a network. I've got a network. And you've got a new network. A new guy.
    75:58
    Sort of. That guy we met with the stair climber thing? Kevin. Oh, yeah. Kevin. Yeah. Another nice guy.
    76:06
    Sorry, Kevin. I don't know your last name. I met Kevin at which one? one. Oh, Mustang Sally's when I got my clock cleaned. You can hear that in another episode, but he was the promoter. He's got an IT business. He's got a pinball business. Really good guy. I'm sure if you if I emailed him or called him, he would be benevolent. He seemed like a really good job.
    76:35
    So back to the centaur thingy. Fix. Multiple fix. so what I did is I basically took a small pair of needle-nose pliers and I said okay I think I should bend it like this way and this way I bent the wire very carefully a 90 degree bend another 90 degree bend and then straight out and first try I put another two screws on there first try it was perfect it was like it was made that way and then I started her up and it's like yep it was throwing balls out so now it was getting all five balls in the field he was supposed to. The last thing to fix on it was sometimes the balls would come out strong, sometimes they'd kind of like wiggle out a little bit, sometimes they'd shake around and come out of the very top part. It wasn't consistently strong. I said, okay, let's look at that. So, I went back in with a catapult arm. I noticed that it wasn't like, it was a little bit offside. It had play back and forth. It wasn't like hitting it straight on the ball. It would hit to the left of the ball, to the right of the ball, would make it weak. Right. Every couple of times or more, it would hit and strike the metal. But you had taken out a couple of washers and you said, you know, I want more play, but it was too much play. Right. I was basically trying to get rid of all the drag. So I took the two washers out. That was too much. Too much play. And originally from the factory, there were two washers on one side of it. That was wrong, too. Because those two washers on one side would make the thing with all the, the catapult was all... It would grind. Well, no, it would always grind, bind up, but also it would hit always on the left side of the ball. So by taking one washer out, putting it on the right side of the catapult, so now they have equal sides of that, now the catapult was lined up dead center on the ball. So now every time that ball is hit now, strong hit. So now we have a strong hitting multi-ball coming out. We have an accurate multi-ball, and it always throws the ball like it's supposed to. And now a happy sent to our customer. it's fun to watch him in action I'm grateful thank you no problem have a good travel well now it's shop job again and go through it and do a couple of but yeah I'm happy oh one thing I do want to say public service so I'm going to post that picture of that blade somewhere in my travels I saw that somebody else had a fix like this. The same thing? I might be dreaming, but if what we described you have,
    79:19
    I would like to hear from you, just so I don't think I'm nuts. You know, I feel like doing it. I feel like taking a bunch of those. But this is helpful. If you own a Centaur, what was just told to you, you got the whole thing because it's not really the other two switches it's really that switch is the key that's the key to the kingdom that's the thing that does it all and that mech the ball stops there the ball did stop there and it makes a big difference in the game gigantic difference in the game so I took pictures of the funky switch and I took pictures of the switch I made and I'll probably post it on Pinsight I'll post that in that Centaur thread you were on. You should. Here's what I did. In fact, I could even, like, take a bunch of my Coindor switches and bend them that way. I could even sell them. Because no one sells this switch. Centaur drop launch. You know where you can buy a few?
    80:20
    From Georgie's Park Department. I told him, he's like, why do you have all these? I go, I don't, you know, a lot of my games don't have Coindor switches like this because I don't use coins. I have a button.
    80:32
    But I bought a bag. I don't remember who I bought them from, but I bought a sack of 12 or like 10 bucks. Somebody was just cleaning that and wanted a couple bucks, and I bought them. I'm like, I don't know if I'll ever use them, but I got them. So if you need switches, if you're not tinned, you can email me. The Classic Pinball Podcast, number one at gmail.com. They're going to be tinned. No, I don't get any of that. I don't get it. I get crickets. You get it. You're nice. here, we were talking about this yesterday, anybody who's older understands that they go to the dentist, you read the Highlights magazine Yes, Highlights. So Dave's like the good guy, he's got the halo, and I'm over here the heathen with the little, two little things coming out of my head What's the guy's name? One of them is what? Gallant. Gallant and Goofus? Yes, that is it. Gallant and Goofus? Gallant and Goofus, so I guess I might Yeah, Gallant, how do I we couldn't figure out that name of the day all of a sudden it just popped in my head maybe the beer did it the beer struck it loose yeah goofus so I'm a little bit more goofus well we all know that George it's not very nice sleeping outside at night is it well it's warm out down here you might be alright uh oh rain's not good uh oh we have a comment from, let's see, where did he put, oh.
    82:02
    I have a comment, speaking of Centaur, and the Centaur, I just... They're not going to say that we talk too much about Centaur, are they? No, it's a classic podcast. It's a Centaur classic. It's 81. Everybody's got a comment, so that's what we're about. You wouldn't listen to that. Everybody's got something else, too. You have an opinion. If you didn't want to hear our opinion, you wouldn't listen. Most people don't. So this guy, so he's on my YouTube channel, and he commented in the Centaur vid I put out there about the one I, the beautiful story. Oh, this is a good story. So, I know this guy, L, L Beat, his name is. Who? I don't know. E-L-L B-E-E-Y-T.
    82:42
    So, he wrote. El Bite? I'll, I'll Bite. It's I'll Bite. That's what it is. I'll Bite. It's Al Bite? Yeah. Hi, glad to meet you. My name is Al Bite. E-L-L. I don't know. El Bite, though.
    82:56
    Whatever. What did you try yesterday at the brewery we went to? El Jefe? Yeah, what did you call it?
    83:04
    Jefe juice? That's a good name for it. It's a yak juice. That's nasty. Usually, here's how bad that was the other day. A little diversion for a second. He said, hey, I see people picking up four packs of that, and they have stickers for it, and they're really not. It's habanero mango IPA. It's like, eh, I don't know. So I said, all right. He said, oh, it's a really good cellar. It's like, what else you got? Well, we got this other, I was like, well, I'll take a glass of the other stuff there. I think it's more, but you know what, can you give me a taste of that one? And usually when I get a taste test of a beer, it's like, usually it's good enough. It's like, okay, I wouldn't order, but I'll down it. It was an immediate no. But I'll down it. This one here, a sip. I'm not finishing that sip. You can have that back. I'm not even going to go there. You always get a sour look, like, when you take a taste, and somebody comes, you know, they're looking for your reaction, you go, not my speed. No. I don't get it. Well, that's why you asked for a taste. Right. I don't want to order a whole one. I went to Dogfish Head, their restaurant in Delaware, out on the water. Help me where Joey is. Anyway, Rehoboth Beach. Yeah. And I wasn't educated enough to know what a sour was. So the guy pours me a sour and I drank a sip. Oh, sour's nasty. Oh my god. I was like, and the guy's like, and I go, I really don't like it. He just took it back. He was like, what would you like instead? I'm like, okay. You had a whole bar? I also did that at, didn't we talk about this at Pinfest?
    84:41
    Where I got that beer and it was absolutely disgusting. And I'm like, which one was it? I don't remember the name, and I don't want to say it. Okay. But whatever it was, it was absolutely disgusting. Was it from the bar? Yeah, it was a draft. Is it an IPA? Yeah, it was horrible. Horrible. Because of the larger bed? I don't know, and I don't care. I'm like, I'm not drinking this. And the guy was like, you know, kind of looked like he was going to charge me anyway. I don't think so. Get it out of here. You know, I would have walked out, and you would have missed out on George having a good night with everybody else. but anyway, that's another story you've kind of heard about already.
    85:24
    So where we last left our heroes. Oh yeah, Centaur. So this guy must have heard our podcast about Centaur, the restored one, and he saw my YouTube video about the same Centaur and I do a whole nice expose on the game and a whole diatribe, the whole thing. He really showed the game off really well. And his comment was really disheartening to hear this wonderful game went to an ungrateful jerk.
    85:53
    Well done. He cost you money. He did. You know, and the thing is, the guy who got the game, it's like, when I sent him the whole video ahead of time, and I sent him everything, I heard crickets from him. It's like, usually it's like, oh, I can't wait to get the game. It's wonderful. Wow, it's great. I got no accolades. I got like babushka. Like, wow. So, it happens. It happens. But, you know, you learn things. Then I got another guy saying, superb restoration, just stunning. Thank you. I got beautiful on there. I got, wow, that's an excellent restoration, Dr. Dave. Definitely my Valley Top 10.
    86:31
    Someone else said, that's a real restoration indeed. Word of warning, though. Good players can shot the inlands for infinite extra balls. Does the game adjustment prevent that? I don't think you can shot the lanes on that one. It runs into the thing. I don't think so. We'll try today. I don't know how to do it. We'll try later on. You tried.
    86:52
    Well, I don't know. Did Eric Stone and what's his name, the kid do that on the Centaur? Yes. They did do it. Was it Centaur? What game was it? It was Centaur. Wasn't it? No, it was Centaur. No, the last one, the year before.
    87:05
    It was Centaur. I don't remember. The kid. Okay, this guy's correct. You can do it. People don't like people doing that in tournaments. No, it's terrible. It takes you out. It's not fun. There's no comment. It's annoying. It's stupid. It's cheap. It's like a cheap shot. It's like a cheap thing. Right, but... But they will do anything they want. Eric doesn't like us calling it an exploit because it's not an exploit. You can learn how to do it, too. And Benny... No, Eric doesn't like it. And Benny's like, I've got to learn to do that. Benny's like, I've been practicing. Eric told the kid on that one, he's like, dude, you're not going to do that. This one, the centaur, it's like, you're better than that. You don't have to do that. Well, I've got to do anything I can to win. and that's what happens when you go to the upper level tournament people like that, they'll do whatever to win and that's what separates well that's what separates, that's why I don't like, that's why you know they were trying to get me to be in this last tournament pinball pool was there, I could have been picked 12 games, about 8 of them I could have picked they were classics, I could have done it but I said you know I'm going to be married to this tournament let's say this compared to Pintastic the top players weren't here, there were some I don't know, I mean, look, Jerry Bernard, you got Levy, you got Greg Papadeli or whatever. But the top Walker Point people, the Walker Point top people, no. Oh, no, I mean, the kid didn't show up. Eric's been there before, you know, but, well, whatever. He didn't show up anyway. Right, right. For that. Right. But I'm saying, you know, you didn't have, and I'm going to call him out because he was called out on the podcast, or on the broadcast with Mark is, what the hell is his name, Andy Bagwell. He was puffing. When was this now? For what? For that tournament. The one just now? Yeah. What do you mean he's puffing? Well, he's a top player. Go look him up. I saw his name in there. Right. He sounds familiar. He's probably top 20. He might even be a top 10. Ramper or Clash of the Greats. I don't know. I've seen him. He's a distinct looking character. Anyway. and he was puffing like, you know, hey, there's not a lot of competition here. You know, I got a good chance of winning.
    89:14
    And he didn't. He got what happened. He qualified, though, right? Oh, he qualified, but he didn't win. Some non-name guy won. Yeah. And he tried to interview him. And he basically said, I don't want to be interviewed.
    89:27
    Good for you. And then that was the other controversy. I love the controversy. so Brian O'Deal goes to give him the fist bump like you know hey good luck you know the camaraderie everybody's competing but everybody's sort of friendly for the most part some people like to be touched other stuff he took out his bottle of Purell and sprayed him no he didn't do that but he it just walked away from him like nah that's 8-9 so this guy not even a fist bump nothing this guy was like Robotron he's been in his basement all day long I don't know the man here. Nobody knew who this guy was. Something Garber, I think, was his last name. Don't hold me to that. Again, we're talking about fact-checking. Dave Marston. And good fun. Look, man, you can fact-check us all we want. I know we make mistakes. I don't remember people's names. We don't have names. We're not that show. It's the charm of the show. That's not us. It's charming. This is either like the crap we talk about or you don't. It's like a house when you go house hunting and they say charming. It means small. We're a very acquired taste.
    90:41
    We're a charming show. I'm not sure charming is a word that comes to people's mind when they talk about it. Maybe charming instead. Charming. Charming, yes. You will be charming.
    90:55
    I'm going to keep that. That's a good one. Take it. I started that. You're charming. Yeah, you're charmining me.
    91:01
    What did you say? Are you charmining me? You say I'm charming. No, you're charmining me. That's actually a polite way of saying, are you lessing me? Yeah. Are you charmining me? Okay. Did you just come up with that? I just did. Okay, Mr. Whipple. Thank you.
    91:18
    Are we done? You're squeezing the charmin. Are we done? I get it. Are we done? Is there anything else? What else did we touch on? Anything? I don't know. I didn't have anything written down. I haven't really been focused on pinball recently. Oh, no, I got a couple of things. Oh, God, I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about this. Shall I get a beer? Yeah, why don't you stop it here and let's get a beer, and then we'll continue. It'll get even better. I can't wait. It'll get better. It's already getting juicy. Oh, no, wait. It's not me. I'm going to be the agitator. Wait. Oh, boy. Here we go. We'll be back. Here we go. Back in two and two. Here we go. See that bear lapping up that good old country water Sure gets a big hairy guy laugh when he thirsty That when I wrap my lips around a tall sweaty edible bottle of good old country bear whiz beer As my daddy said, son, it's in the water. That's why it's yellow.
    92:18
    Bear whiz beer. Bear whiz beer liquid products, Andy. They were true reanimals, wasn't they? And we're back with beer in hand, or beers in hand. Yes. What do you think, George? I think it's time for me to talk about inviting Dave into your home and having him play your games. He is a little bit OCD. A little? A little bit. We're playing Embryon.
    92:45
    And again, folks, understand, I put games together. I don't have a photographic memory. I just do my thing, make it work, and move along. I don't pay attention to details sometimes. Dave turns to me and says, this game has linear flippers.
    93:04
    He's not looking under the play field. All he's doing is playing it. And you know what? He was right. And George kept saying to me, no, no. I thought I repaired the upper flipper. No, I think one of them is like, no, George, they're all linear flippers. Right, right. trust me. How much money do you want to put down? I get the bad boy award because I have not converted. I'm not going to do it over the summer. Dave knows that. Next fall, that game is on slate and so is Centaur. Centaur I pumped down the road for a long time. I didn't realize that. And I am because I love Embryon. I'm going to replace all the football guys. You should do some perfect play rubber on it too on Baltimore. Get that stuff. It's cheap and good. I have. That's from Pinball Life. Yeah, I have some.
    93:53
    Although I will say, you know what? I have stuff for my life. I like using the white. Do you have any rubber? Real rubber? I do. Yeah. Most of mine is gone. For the cheapy clients, I keep that stuff. I have rubber. No, but if you want the official feel, like rubber, flipper rubber.
    94:13
    Ben was talking about it. He said, well, I like to have the real rubber on the flip rubber because it doesn't grab it as well. It doesn't do weird things when you try to hold the ball. It's more natural. Really? Yeah. So he likes that better. I'm not that good. And I get it because I get the same sense of it, but I just like that silicone rubber thing on the flipper. Well, I do too, but I have rubber. I got a little bit everywhere.
    94:39
    So there's that. That's one. And then number two, he starts rubbing his elbow and his forearm. on the lockdown bar, and he's like, you have an electrical charge. And then he doesn't just do it on one game. He goes around the whole room. So I think I had a 50-50 split. But I'm like, I knew one of the games I knew how to charge, which is Xenon. And it's not bad. I'm like, so what is it? It's obviously a ground problem. But I'm not going to go searching. Sorry. Just not. I want the quick fixes. Put the wire here. And it's done. I want to. George, George, come here. Try it. It feels. I know. I'm not touching that. It's like, come on. Don't be a wimp. I took my knuckles and went along. I could kind of feel something. Then I took. What do you do? You take one. You're going to do like a. Where the thin skin is. Yeah, with a baby bottle for the hot milk for the baby kind of on your forearm there. I tried that. I'm sorry you're poor. Yeah, inside. You do that, say, oh, there's something going on there. It's just a little something, not a shock at all. Then I said, okay, the big test is let's go from game to game. Well, Dave couldn't, but he didn't look like Steve Ritchie, so I know he's okay. Right, right. I wasn't plugged in. I had to get that in there. Sorry. Oh, poor Steve Ritchie. He's going to be on. He knows you now. Right, well.
    96:09
    Okay, Steve. Big trouble. Steve, I'll buy you some vodka, okay? Big. Do you like vodka? that's the story I never heard that one so I'm told okay what kind so I don't know Chopin I don't know Delvier's good I am not a vodka aficionado nor do I care to be one but I like vodka somebody that's what I understand I'm not sorry I do not know do not fact check me I do not know that to be reliable I'm trying to be honest in this city shit. Yeah, why? You need way too PC. You got people. That's not right. Who cares? No. Who cares? It's a podcast. You know, it's our opinion. Turn the channel. Go to something else. Or stay here because stay here we're more fun here. We're going to do one more segment but do you have anything else?
    97:13
    Trying to think. I don't know. What else we got? I got nothing. Like what? Like pin cast? Well, it's too close. We did this.
    97:20
    Well, no. Wait a minute. We had pin cast. Well, I got the what's up doc thing coming. Once again, my better half coming. She's going to whisper in my ear. My memory's shot. You don't remember it. You didn't even remember that it was me standing next to you when the guy was talking about the pin climb.
    97:37
    Yeah, that was stupid. It was amazing. No, it wasn't. You were there for such a short time. You stayed a half hour? I was. He drove three hours, stayed half hour, and went home.
    97:47
    It was more like four and a half, but, you know, it wouldn't be pin fest if I did that. I've done that forever. Get there early, stay until 2.30, go home.
    98:02
    Watch out, John. So Maureen and I are playing Air Aces, I believe a 1975 Valley game here at PennFest 2024 in Allentown.
    98:16
    Of course, this is Dr. Dave. My gracious assistant, Maureen. This is Dr. Dave. And Maureen just started an extra ball on Air Aces.
    98:27
    Really cool back glass by Dave Christensen. and a real nice red from the bag last too. Right now you're trying to get the drop tar to the top of the play field, get them all down, and get the top saucer for double bonus. Right now I've got ball four, I've got $58,000, and she's got $25,000.
    98:51
    What's going on here? The guy here wants $1,500 for this game. A little hefty, I think more like a $500 game, but still, it's been a really nice game for a tournament. I can see a lot of good tournament players in this game. They've got a lot to do. And we get an extra ball going here. Just went out. I'm going to try, oh I'm not going to try my thing, she had an extra ball. She's playing. And the guy who has it has it set up to 65,000 points, you get a free ball. getting pretty close she's got 48 000. so 58 to 48 going to ball four on the extra ball right now
    99:32
    and drop targets here 49 000 3000 bonus and out she goes so she got 53. all right ball five 58 to 52. this is it see how we do here Alright, so we'll drop that just down to the... another couple thousand points here to get an extra ball. Alright, we get an extra ball secured because they have bonus points to get there. An extra ball lies up top. I don't know why that does that. It's gonna... that's a little bit easier. Maybe not a good tournament game, but I think extra ball is a little too easy in this game. That's the extra ball for me.
    100:20
    Oh, maybe not. Nope, it's hard live. I don't get an extra ball for 55,000 points. I have 67. And, boy, I got ripped off. So 67 to 52 right now. Morgan's on ball five. See if she can take me down.
    100:38
    Boy, if I had the arcade owner here who owned the arcade or this establishment, this soda shop or this thing would be, And stay here. Put the extra ball here. There's 55,000 points. And the final score is Dr. Dave's 57,800, Maureen's 59,720.
    100:59
    Now we're going to try playing something else. All right, so let's talk about another game I played at the show, the pin fest show. I played the Valley Air Aces, George. I played, I believe it's 75, let's see. it is no it is February 75 yes 3,000 units made and I have a excellent perfect backlash for this game that would be wonderfully lit up Dave Christensen artwork nice red biplane there 3,000 I never played one of these back in the day I never saw one but I got the backlash a year ago and played at the show played a tired one I think the guy wanted like 900 bucks for it was tired not worth no I'm not paying that no if you're not getting a nice, well, for you now, it's, can you find a game with a nice playfield? Right. This playfield, it was a little bit hurting. It was okay. And I could have put some time into it, but I just know if I bought this game to show, I'd be like, uh,
    101:57
    Raiders of the Lost Ark. Take it, put it in the back of the frickin' thing with the, you know, back of the storage. So think about it. What other games came out in 1975 that that game would compete against? Hocus Pocus. That's a better game. What other Valley games? Focus, focus. Oh, that's the rabbit. Yep. Bow and arrow. Better game. Right. Two. What about Captain Fantastic? Better game because more recognizable. Was that a 75? That's a 75 or 76. 75, 76. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Okay, so a lot better games out of that house. And we're not even talking about what games Gottlieb had at the time. Who else was around? William's at the time. Williams, EMs, no, not so much. Williams, Williams, Williams. Williams, no. I like the Williams horse race games, but not the big Williams ones. No, I do like some. I almost bought a beautiful Williams blackout at the show. Very tempted, but I have a blackout.
    103:04
    It's in nice shape. I just have to do my thing with it. Now, when am I going to do my thing with it? I don't know. I have like at least a year's worth of customer games to do for us, so I really can't do mine. But this game was like home use only, they said, 30 years owned. It was in nice shape, and it was good to go. Now, even if they say good to go, I'm still going to mess with it. It ain't good to go. Not up to my standards. They already heard the story. So let's see. So for other games from 75 from Valley that are competing with this game, it would be Wizard. Okay. You know that's getting played over that.
    103:40
    High Deal? No, bad. That's the one with the gorilla on the back. That's a stupid game. I don't like that game. No thanks. Flicker? Boring. Don't like that game. Knockout? Boring. That's the boxing game? Yes. Okay. I know all those games. I've played with them. Yeah, not good. I don't like them. They're a lot of crappy games. Well, they weren't the king of the hill until they went to the FS. Exactly. They had Blue Chip, Boomerang, Boring Boring, Bow and Arrow, good. They had some hits, but they're a lot of losers. Did you say that you bought the game,
    104:12
    that PJ bought the game Bow and Arrow? He did, he bought a Bow and Arrow. Did we talk about it? No. Not yet. Sure? Well, if we did, we'll recap it. I don't think we did. Okay. But I saw it there. Stu was there with Benny and said, PJ, we found a Bow and Arrow because he was jolting at a Bow and Arrow. Do you think everybody knows who all these characters are? Have we talked about these guys enough? Yeah, I think so. PJ is Dave's best friend. Yes. Stu is... From kindergarten. From kindergarten, I do. Stu is PJ's brother. Brother who I've known forever as well. And Benny is Stoat's... Stu's Stoat. Wow.
    104:50
    More beer. More beer. More beer for you. Is Stu's son. Anyway, we gotta do that because we might get one or two new listeners. Okay, we can do a recap. Okay, we did. So keep going. Eric you might have one more thing Twin Wind nice backless again same Dave Christensen but not a great game that's with the gals the two girls the red light and blue yeah not a great game Sky Kings stupid game people like but I know everybody knows all these games Rogo think of how many games that is they were pushing them out the door they were junk but Rogo another boring game great backless but a boring game is that the one with the drop the targets thing in the middle? Rogo? The flipping thing that rotates. No, Viking in the back last. The targets that rotate. No, that's not that game. Okay, sorry. Oh, that's the Viking guy. Okay. Bon Voyage, no.
    105:50
    Wow, these are the last. Stinkers. Odd and Evens, no. Stinker. Nippet, not really. Monte Carlo. Those are all 1975? 73. We're going low. We're going 73. Circus. Okay. So all these, they have El Toro, 72. They have a lot of, like, stinkers. So, really, the only games that are any good from them in the mid-70s, small. I mean, you can actually... That's why I was almost thinking of getting that game. Yeah, but keep talking. You might have to just hold the basket out. I need to sell games instead. You might hold the basket out if it comes to you. Yeah, it could. It could come to you. You can hold the basket out. I mean, Bow and Arrow, Air Aces, Wizard... It's a short list A very short list What's the other one? Oh, Hocus Pocus How about this one? Miss America Supreme 1976 What is that game?
    106:48
    Oh, it's a bingo machine That's why Miss America It sounds like What's the guy's name? Supreme? Your buddy there That's running for president Berman Supreme Berman Supreme Berman He's got my vote Everybody wears a hood on their head So I have one thing I have one last thing that you wanted me to talk about Okay Jersey Boys Kirk up your ears If you're over It might be even 60 years old It's a high threshold Do you remember The shooting gallery On the boardwalk In Seaside Heights I like it Yep I was 7th or 8th grade, which would be early 70s, and I remember shooting a .22 rifle on the boardwalk in the shooting gallery. It was a legal abusement in New Jersey. and I'm talking about the ones with the ducks and whatever other animal, and you could probably look it up. It's probably on YouTube. I'm guessing it's somewhere out there, you know, with the chain drive targets that fall down, and when they go around the loop, they come back and they're propped up. You know, the flames. They had candles that were lit. Oh, yeah. Oh, it was a real shooting gun. It was a thing. Okay, I'm not old enough, folks, and I don't know if there's anybody 10 years or more older than me, but I would love to hear the story of how, when that first came to the board. So you had a .22 rifle that you could just, like, shoot. It was on a chain, and the guy was always here. But you can't turn it to your neighbor and shoot him, right?
    108:50
    I think it would be difficult, but let's put it this way. How hard is it on a chain to just take it, turn it around, and click the trigger? You know, this is before violent video games. No, but I'm saying, people are like, that didn't happen. That wasn't real. Yeah, it was. It did. I have audio right now from when it happened. Here it is. Oh, my God, I shot my eye out. That was good for your eye out, Tim. Hello, teacher.
    109:22
    Hello, teacher. And so, Dr. Dave, back here again, King's Fest 2024. We have Mark Antonucci from Pinnervators. And Mark, you've been coming to this show for quite a while, yes? I believe this is the 12th year we've been here. Twelve years, all right. I don't know how long I've been coming here. I'm thinking like 20, but I kind of lost track.
    109:45
    Tell us about how you got started in pinball and how you got your Pinnervators thing going and that kind of thing. Tell us your background a little bit. Well, pinball was somewhere around maybe four, age of four, going to a hotel, a motel, and they had some pinball machines, and anything electromechanical would interest me. Okay. And I probably bummed a dime off my father. Sure, yeah, that happens. Yeah, and just pushing that plunger to kick the ball up. I mean, they were the 60s machines, and just knowing that, hey, these are fun. So do you have any titles in mind that you played back then? No idea. Okay. It was so long ago. But later on, you'd go to the local King's Department store, and they'd have machines there. Oh, yeah. They had... Top card days. They all had top cards. And I'm pretty sure at some point Royal Flush, and that's why I collected that one years later. Okay, yep. Great game. But eventually convinced my parents that, hey, if you bought us a pinball machine, we would save quarters. We wouldn't have to go up to the store and play. And they finally came around to it. Okay. We got a Williams Ding-Dong. Yeah, fun game. Go around a little circle thing in the middle. The horseshoe thing, yep. And they actually had a Smarty here at the show. Still right down there. It's the same game, right? Same game, just a different name. Sure. And I remember, I think we paid like $225 for it. Okay. And someone had repainted the fields. Yep. But just a great game. We played that thing all summer, and I think that the electric bill came in at the end of the summer, and it was like way more than if we had spent all our quarters at the store. All of the incandescent lights add up. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we just play that all summer. Yeah. Great game. And then, of course, if it breaks, there was nobody else to fix it. So it was forced learning how to do the repairs. Okay. So you actually figured out how to work on this stuff back then? Oh, yeah. Okay. Back then, I even figured out how the counters worked for the match feature. Okay. And I had a couple of sliding pieces of paper. And you could say, all right, if I end my ball with a score of this on the last digit, and there would be a good chance that the match feature would line up. Okay, wow. Yeah, it didn't always step one-to-one, but you could time it and get a free game. Right. Nice. Not that every game wasn't free. Sure. That's the engineering. Exactly. Let's figure out how that works. Figure out how it works. Right. Nice. So from there, so that's like a 60s game and a 70s game, Royal Flush. and then so were you like in college at that point with Royal Flush or more like in high school or that was Royal Flush was after college when they had a little more money okay we pulled that out of someone's basement okay and it only needed a few rubbers of course okay yeah and then after we rebuilt the whole thing and sure we fixed all the inserts oh yeah the all fallout oh yeah like get dished out or whatever yep and a friend helped finish that one up say his last name, or Ed McMiniman. So we kind of collaborated and finished that one off. And it came out really good. We had it in the basement forever. And it finally left because Sandra wanted a newer machine. And I have to keep her happy because how often do wives like to be part of the pinball? Right.
    113:11
    That's cool. So that was just recently sent out off to another friend. Collected games in high school and then in college we were close to Nantasket Beach so because Nantasket yeah the kids I remember getting a I think it was a Buck not a Buck Rogers I can't remember which one but they'd have a few machines so a system one of some form that's a system one of Buck Rogers yeah I think it was a Buck Rogers okay and it's so long ago I can't remember but yeah that was a source of machines and so I could only sit two at my parents' house, so that was the limit. Okay. So Ding Dong had to leave. Oh, poor Ding Dong. Where did Ding Dong go? He went to another friend for $30. $30? That's a deal. Yeah. And then I think he left it at the dump after, which is a crisis. It is. It was in nice shape. Yeah. So after college, I had a black hole in the college dorm room. No one escapes a black hole.
    114:15
    That's for sure. Yeah. That was a great machine. We actually had to put our beds up on bookcases to make room for the black hole. Okay. But that was cool having it in a college-grown room. Heavy game. Oh, yeah. But you guys are college guys, so you can lift that stuff. Yep. We jammed that in the back of my 84 Firebird. Wow. All right. Well, that's something. Yeah. Wow.
    114:40
    Amazing. Yep. Was it sticking out the back or sticking out the windows? The hatch was up and sticking out the back. Okay, yeah. The head was off in the front seat or something. Yep. You find ways to make it work. There's a will, there's a way. Uh-huh. Yep. Nice. So from there, you did some college, and you got into electrical engineering. Yep. And then you, when did you start getting into the Pinnivator thing? How'd that all start up? That was 12 years ago. I'll tell you what Pinnivator is, too. What do you guys do? Pinnabators makes headphone kits, and our second product was a subwoofer kit. We merged it into one, so you buy one of our headphone kits, and now you have a way to attach your subwoofer to your machine without using alligator clips. It's all plug-and-play, easy to do, anybody can install it. Nice. So Stern, old Valley of William WPC, does it matter?
    115:35
    Anything in the 90s on up. Okay. And now one of our kits, anything with a speaker, you can add a subwoofer to it. Okay. Nice. That started, I went to a pinball auction. Yeah. I think maybe at Betson or something like that. And ran into someone that had a machine that they wanted to sell me after I missed out on an auction. Okay. And I said, well, I'm an electrical engineer. If you ever need any help, I'll do what I can. Sure. But anyway, formed a little friendship. And then, like, shortly thereafter, Lorenzo and Jim, they approached me and said, hey, we have this idea for a headphone. How did you meet these guys again? How did you meet them? I met Lorenzo at one of the pinball auctions. Okay.
    116:24
    And that's where he had a machine he wanted to sell me. And I think I eventually got a few from him. Okay.
    116:34
    But they said, hey, we want to pay you to make us a headphone kit. Okay. I said, pay me. I said, I'll do it for free. Wow, all right. They said, okay, we'll do that. Yeah, yeah. So that kicked off like a full month window of having five products ready for this show 12 years ago. Okay, yeah. I remember the trio coming in, you guys. Yep, yep.
    116:58
    And of course, we got here and we heard, oh, there's someone else that's making a headphone kit too. Oh, wow. That was Buckworks back in the day. Okay. But they weren't at the show, so we had the show to ourselves. Okay. Now they fell to the wayside. Are they still around, Buckworks? It fell to the wayside years ago. It was absorbed by another friend. Okay. But the headphone business is so complicated because you've got to support everybody and know all the different issues they're going to run into on their machines. That's why I heard that you actually have to buy a machine once in a while. If you have a weird thing, you've got to buy a machine and figure it out. Exactly, yes. Debug it. We're behind on our newer products because I have to buy a machine because it's just a lot easier to have one right in front of you to do all the engineering work. Quite the investment. Yeah. But, you know, as a side effect, you keep the machines. Right. You know, that's not too bad. Not too bad. Right. And you can always sell it and get money back if you want to pretty much. You could. Yep. Okay. That's cool.
    117:59
    So you also have Pentastic, too. You go to that show as well? We do, yep. So there's these two shows? There's Pentastic and... Yeah, in the past we ventured off to Texas Pinball Festival in Chicago, but it's a lot of work just to bring the goods down there. Now the business is me and my wife. We found that it's just easier to travel and just enjoy the show. Right. That's cool. And buy mods. Yeah, buy mods. Right. And that's why you do quite a good business there, too. People are buying your stuff. You can do game here all the time. You've got a subwoofer with it. You've got your headphones and you've got a haptic vest. You also sell like a haptic thing? Yep, we're adding that to our lineup now. Our friends supplied the vest to us with headphones. We're going to offer that now on our website finally. We finally found a headphone that we're happy with the sound. It does a really good job at reproducing everything. So that's going to be a new item on our website. Any other weird tech stuff that you found that you had to overcome? Any kind of weird stories that are, I don't know, a challenge you had to overcome kind of thing that you didn't share? Do you have anything like that? Sure, sure. Well, one of the issues way back when we did the headphone kit was what happens when you walk up to a pinball machine and you're electrically charged and you plug into it? It zaps. You can zap the machine. Right. So, having a little background in testing for that, I added protection on our kits. Okay. So, it shunts that charge to the ground of the machine, and you don't damage the machine. Like a barista? Almost like a barista on an old valley? A lightning bolt comes down, it takes the charge off one of those? Yeah, this case is a TDS diode. Okay. I don't know if he is a barista. Okay. I don't know for sure. Okay. But that shunts it to ground, so you're safe. Okay. And we even purposely blew up one of our pinball machines to say, what does it do without that protection? And then what does it do with the protection? Right. So we could see, yeah, we have a good solution. So it was definitely field tested. And when you blew it up, what did you blow up? What actually went boom? One of the DACs on the board. Okay. So I've done my repairs over the years, so we knew we could fix it. Okay. But we wanted to test it and know what are the side effects of telling people to go put this on their machine. Yeah, right. So, unfortunately for the competitors, they didn't have that. Okay. And then people started talking about, oh, my gosh, my machine blew up. Right, yeah. It's not a good thing. Okay. So, understanding all the potential pitfalls was interesting. So, your kids have that inside. You put that kid in there, you have no problem putting the plug in there. You're not going to blow up your game. It's all good to go. Exactly. We have a ground wire. Anything that comes in gets shunted right to the coin door. And all the machines have to go through this testing anyway because you can't just have someone walk up, touch the machine, and blow something up or crash the machine. Right. So that's all testing that gets done on all consumer and industrial electronic devices. Right. I do say that in my pinball restoration business, I basically, when I'm done with the game, I want to play test, play test, play test. me and my friend John, John Day, when he does his thing, he says he wants to play 100 games on it before he releases it. Wow, yeah. And that's almost a little more than me. I do maybe like 50 or 60. But at that point, you're going to figure out if it's going to be good to go or not, or chances are you're going to be fine. Right. So same thing with you. You kind of like test your stuff out really well and make sure it's going to sell no solution to kit before it's time kind of thing. Exactly. My day job is in the testing business. Well, there you go. There you go. You learn a lot from there, and how do you apply it to your hobby? Okay. Or the second job. Oh, yeah, the second job. Yeah. Well, cool. Well, thanks for talking with us, you know. This is George and Dave, Classic Pinball Podcast. This is Mark from Pin Evaders and Sandra. Sandra, my wife. Your lovely wife. Yep. Who supports you in this madness. Well, it keeps the whole business going. Keeps all business going, yes, and thanks to her as well. Exactly. Thank you. Take care.
    122:12
    Who do you call when you want your pinball machine restored? Y'all love your Dave! Who? Dave! D-A-V-E! Yeah, Dave! Right. But George, you don't know what you're saying. You're under their control. George, we've had it with you. I'm sorry, George, we're cutting you loose. You're cutting me loose? Say no rodeo, bro dad. Hasta la vista, baby.