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Ep 79: Cultural

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 25m·analyzed·Mar 16, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

IFPA director Jermaine Marial discusses tournament rule changes, District 82 attendance decline, and operator best practices.

Summary

Jeff Teolis and Marty Robbins interview Jermaine Marial, a top IFPA-ranked player, tournament director, and Seattle-area pinball operator. They discuss IFPA 6.0 rule changes and their impact on tournament attendance, the declining draw at District 82 in Wisconsin, scheduling conflicts between major tournaments (PAPA, IFPA Worlds, Pinburgh), format efficiency concerns, and Jermaine's operational philosophy including placing premium machines like Bond 60th on location.

Key Claims

  • IFPA 6.0 efficiency changes have caused top players to be selective about tournament participation, affecting attendance at venues like District 82

    high confidence · Jermaine Marial describing how the efficiency factor in IFPA rankings is influencing player behavior; Jeff and Marty corroborate with examples of players skipping strikes events at Nationals/Pin Masters

  • District 82 February Stern Pro Circuit capped at 150 registrations but only reached ~90 attendees; April event canceled before reaching 50

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis citing specific attendance numbers; attributes partly to February timing, Wisconsin location logistics, and increased tournament options elsewhere

  • The Super League format in Seattle was discontinued due to IFPA rule changes, disrupting established sponsor relationships and multi-location tournament infrastructure

    high confidence · Jermaine Marial describing his experience running Super League in Seattle with 6-8 partner locations before transition to post-Super League structure

  • IFPA membership now includes 110,000 players who have participated in tournaments or leagues

    high confidence · Jermaine Marial citing statistics: 'We're now 110,000 players in the IFPA that have played some format of tournament or league'

  • Jermaine Marial operates nearly 50 pinball machines across 35+ locations in the Seattle area

    high confidence · Jermaine clarifying: 'I do have nearly 50 machines and over 35 locations right now'

  • The flip frenzy format was 'nerfed' (downgraded in point value) in 2023, reducing its popularity and driving format diversification

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis: 'It happened last year, and it was the start of what I thought, honestly, was a slippery slope with the basically nerfing of the flip frenzies, which was an extremely popular format'

  • Pin golf format is difficult for TDs to run due to target score selection, timing unpredictability, and machine reliability risk

    high confidence · Jermaine Marial explaining challenges: 'as a TD, it's a very hard format to run...choosing the right target score can make or break your tournaments'

Notable Quotes

  • “We're now 110,000 players in the IFPA that have played some format of tournament or league, and that's pretty exciting too.”

    Jermaine Marial @ N/A — Demonstrates scale of IFPA ecosystem and legitimacy of point-chasing as community norm

  • “I mean, a pinball machine is made to be played. I'm not a, you know, pristine collector type person. So, I'd rather my machine gets played in public location that they sit in my garage and I play it once a month, right?”

    Jermaine Marial @ N/A — Reflects operator philosophy and willingness to place premium machines (Bond 60th) on location despite depreciation risk

  • “It's these leagues you mentioned. It's split flipper tournament, which they just did recently at District 82...There's leagues all across. There's even selfie leagues, all these things that are non-IFPA, but they're still fun.”

    Jermaine Marial @ N/A — Acknowledges diversity of tournament formats and social pinball outside IFPA structure

  • “There are definitely IFPA point chasing tournament players out there. And if you offer IFPA point, you will definitely get more people.”

    Jermaine Marial @ N/A — Confirms IFPA point structure as primary driver of competitive tournament engagement

  • “The problem is Northwest is pretty far from a large player base in the Midwest and the East Coast, so it's not always easy to get people to travel all the way to Seattle to join our events.”

    Jermaine Marial @ N/A — Explains geographic challenges for regional tournament growth despite quality events

  • “I mean, as a TD, not an IFPA director, but as a TD, we were massive in Seattle with the Super League, right?...the transition to post super league being a thing was very rough just because we have to turn a massive corner where we had partners...sponsors in place every month, right?”

    Jermaine Marial @ N/A — Illustrates concrete negative impact of IFPA rule changes on established tournament infrastructure

Entities

Jermaine MarialpersonJeff TeolispersonMarty RobbinspersonJosh LassiterpersonEric ThornepersonRaymondpersonSimon PeelpersonKeith Irwinperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: IFPA 6.0 efficiency changes reducing flip frenzy popularity and causing top players to strategically avoid low-value tournaments; unintended consequence of suppressing event formats previously popular with TDs

    high · Jeff: 'the nerfing of the flip frenzies' and 'slippery slope'; Jermaine: players now 'watch what I'm playing...because it hurts my efficiency'

  • ?

    venue_signal: District 82 major event attendance collapsed in 2024; February Stern Pro Circuit reached only 90/150 capacity, April event canceled below 50 registrations

    high · Jeff: specific numbers (90/150, <50); Jermaine confirms Eric Thorne saw warning signs at December event

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Major tournament calendar increasingly congested; PAPA return, IFPA Worlds, Pinburgh, District 82, and regional events overlap, forcing players to choose; Northwest Pinball Championships moved to August 23-25 to avoid PAPA conflict

    high · Jeff: 'June gets just crazy'; Jermaine: moved Northwest Champs two weeks earlier to last weekend in August

  • ?

    operational_signal: Pin golf format creates TD logistical challenges: target score selection affects timing/efficiency; machine downtime risk with no workaround; generally run only at venues with highly reliable machines (District 82)

    high · Jermaine: 'very hard format to run...choosing the right target score can make or break...duration'; prefers District 82 due to machine reliability and spare parts

  • ?

    business_signal: Jermaine operates 50 machines across 35+ Seattle locations; business model shifted from home collection to route operation due to space constraints; includes placing premium machines (Bond 60th) on location

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.257

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:59
nights uh at a new year's eve party it was all downhill for there and uh anyway do you remember that scene um are you talking about the movie boogie nights with burt reynolds burt reynolds and dirk digler and i remember that the greatest ensemble cast ever well ensemble obviously you're talking about the final scene with the big giant thing but i remember that scene obviously i remember burt reynolds being in it i don't remember much more i just remember some weird scene where I don't know, he talked to his managers and said, hey, can you call me Dirk Diggler from now on? So that's all I remember. It was a fun film. I know that Burt Reynolds has disowned the film. Well, he's dead. Well, he disowned it before he died. Yes and no. And then he got nominated for an Oscar. He's like, well, you know, it wasn't that bad. It's Mark Wahlberg who's kind of disowned it. Really? As well? Well, his religious faith has said I will never take a role like that again. That's the truth. Okay, cool. Do we talk pinball? All right. Oh, if we have to. Well, there's a reason we want to talk pinball, because we have a special guest, and I'm not even surprising you on this one. Here he is, from the Northwest, one of the greatest pinball players in the world, and genuine good guy, which he should have no business being on this show, but he is. Jermaine Marriol joins us. Hey, Jermaine, how are you? Hey, guys, good. How are you? It's true when he says, one of the nicest guys. And everybody knows, if you've listened to this podcast before, how much of a B and a Bonnet I get when people aren't nice to me when I go to tournaments overseas. And I will say that Jermaine was one of the exceptions. When I went over there for the first time, he was very nice, very gracious. Most importantly, because I was in a tournament, he was gracious with rules knowledge. And that's what helped me progress. So thank you. Yeah, that was one of the early Indies, great. It was, yeah, 2016, I think. I remember that. Good time, yeah. We ended up doing some kind of broadcast as an indie, because we were together, I think, at some point. I think we did, too. Yeah. Well, what a reunion and love fest this is going to be here on Final Round. This is great, too. And that is important to Marty. When I give him a list of guests, for the most part, he says, no, I want them dead. And, Jermaine, you made the cut.

  • IFPA point-value is a significant motivator for tournament participation; non-IFPA events draw fewer competitors than equivalent IFPA-sanctioned events

    high confidence · Jermaine Marial: 'If you offer IFPA point, you will definitely get more people...You will get more people with IFPA points, right?'

    • District 82
    venue
    Northwest Pinball Championshipsevent
    PAPA (Professional and Amateur Pinball Association)organization
    IFPA (International Flipper Pinball Association)organization
    Pinburghevent
    IFPA 19 / World Championshipevent
    Pin Mastersevent
    Stern Pro Circuitevent
    Seattle Pinball Servicescompany
    Final Round Pinball Podcastmedia
    Bond 60thproduct
    Super Leagueevent_format
    Seattle Pinball Leagueevent

    high · Jermaine: 'I have nearly 50 machines and over 35 locations right now'; started renting machines during/after COVID

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Mixed reaction to IFPA 6.0 efficiency changes; acknowledged as solving spam-event problem but creating new participation friction; top players now exhibit strategic avoidance behavior

    high · Jermaine: 'It's an interesting exchange...I like the idea of efficiency to matter'; but also admits some top players already avoid events not improving their cards

  • $

    market_signal: Geographic accessibility and travel costs significantly impact tournament participation; District 82's decline partly attributed to competing regional/local events becoming more attractive than costly Midwest travel

    high · Jeff/Marty calculate $250-420 flights plus hotel/5-day commitment; conclude local/regional alternatives reduce incentive to travel to District 82

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball tournament ecosystem increasingly diverse beyond IFPA competitions; bar leagues (Seattle 250+ players), split flipper tournaments, non-IFPA events thrive; IFPA points remain dominant motivator for competitive players

    high · Jermaine: 'There's leagues all across...even selfie leagues...non-IFPA, but they're still fun'; but IFPA point events draw higher participation

  • ?

    industry_signal: IFPA Director role involves hundreds of tournament reviews monthly; balance between standardizing TGP/scoring globally while preserving TD creative freedom and regional format preferences

    high · Jermaine: 'thousands of tournaments being reviewed...most TDs have pretty free reign...very complicated'; goes to rules website 10x daily to stay current

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jeff Teolis considering running for IFPA presidency in 2024 election; signals potential leadership challenge or platform-building activity within governance

    medium · Jeff: 'It is an election year, and every stream I watch, like, T.O. is for president. I'm considering running again...I haven't made a decision yet'

  • ?

    event_signal: PAPA returned to tournament calendar in 2024 after multi-year absence; creates scheduling pressure on other major events and regional tournaments competing for player attendance

    high · Jermaine: 'Pittsburgh, PAPA, right? So that's two additional events that weren't there in the past few years'; limits his availability for District 82

  • ?

    community_signal: Jermaine Marial widely respected in pinball community for graciousness, rules knowledge, and willingness to mentor newer players; contrasts with negative overseas tournament experiences reported by Jeff

    high · Jeff: 'one of the nicest guys...genuinely good guy...gracious with rules knowledge'; Jermaine made Jeff's guest cut despite Marty's typical stringent selection

    • 3:16
    Well, behind the scenes, I think, Jeff, you messaged me going, well, Jermaine's going to be on the call. kind of like, do you know who he is? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. I know who he is. I emailed both you and Jermaine and because you've been to the States, what, five times pinball related, maybe six, 10? Yeah, yeah, probably five. So there's some swing and miss there. And sometimes you're busy, you know, of course. Anyway, so that was great. You said, yeah, a few times. Awesome. Good. All right, let's get to it. The reason Jermaine's on here is because he is somebody who is an operator. We're going to talk about that he is somebody who is a massive tournament director and several in fact but the big one coming up in august the northwest pinball championships august 23rd to 25th he is also a world-class player playing in the ifpa 19 and he is what else can i say about him his friends like to call him mr alberta oh because uh even though he lives in the seattle washington area, you know, years ago he decided to play after a successful Yagpin. He said, you know what, for the state and provincial championships, I'm going to go up to Alberta and take their silly whoppers. They can't play. I can dominate them. And I assume you won. I forget. Did you win? No, no. No, no. I was second. Oh. Yeah, probably a little short. That couldn't be the local crowd. They were very nice about it. I mean, they gave me some smack for sure, but they were nice. We all went out after we ate together and things. It was a good trip overall. Okay. I'm sorry you didn't win that, but these Canadians are pretty good. But the other reason I want to talk to Jermaine, Marty, is he's kind of like an IFPA director. There's been a lot of changes in the IFPA 6.0, and we all know they come down from the president. And I'm considering running again. It is an election year, and every stream I watch, like, T.O. is for president. I'm hearing the calls. I haven't made a decision yet. But the point is, Jermaine is one of the guys who votes on some of these decisions, And there have been a lot of changes in 2024, Germain. And I wonder if some have had some significant repercussions, if you will. You know, it's a good point. I mean, I've started helping the IFPA team maybe six months ago. I can't remember. It's been thousands of tournaments being reviewed since, for sure. What's interesting is there's just so many events and formats across the world that getting a frame of reference and rules to try to baseline, you know, TGP and value of events is very complicated because most TDs have pretty free reign to come up with whatever format they want within those frame of reference. And trust me, there is tons of different formats across the board. Europe is very good at coming up with their own format. So it is very difficult. I mean, I'm the first one that, you know, sometimes struggle to even remember every rules. I mean, I go to the website to read the rules, to review events like 10 times a day sometimes. But it's just to try to allow that freedom for people to still be able to come up with different type of events, but also try to baseline the value of those events globally without having, you know, things that sticks out or some kind of weird event that are worse way more than others, right? So it's not an easy feat for sure. I guess probably one of the biggest challenges, and I know we've talked to Josh off about this as well, is that there's a couple of things that the IFPA has to do when it's looking at the scoring models effectively, is how do you satisfy the current players that are already in the bubble? And how do you get new people in as well to these formats as well? Is that something that goes through your mind when you're reviewing these rules as well? Yeah, I mean, it's very interesting because, you know, with the IFPA Discord, which is a great source of reference for NETDs and even just people submitting event on IFPA now that there is some messaging system with the IFPA staff. So we get a lot of questions of new TDs or even not so new TDs asking for advice, asking on how to make the event better, to grow their communities, right? And obviously, there is not a magic answer. A lot of time, it's perseverance, building a crowd, making sure people feel rewarded, right? So it's not always go for the 200 TGP in one day, right? Sometimes it's just about finding the right experience for your crowd. You know, leagues are great. They are social. Sometimes three strikes, you know, is not maybe one of the worst efficiency format there is. But it was so simple for people to understand, you know, it relates to baseball. So sometimes it's just about finding the right mix of events for your location depending on your audience and how you want to grow it. That's a good point too because especially rookie tournament directors, don't get too complicated. Do you want to do the easiest tournament? Do a strikes tournament. It's simple. The match play software will help you through. So yeah, it might not be the most efficient tournament as you mentioned, the biggest whopper, but it will certainly help you with getting your feet wet in tournament play. But what you're talking about is tournament directors are always looking for, okay, what are the players looking for? Is it certainly fun, but is it that opportunity, chance to help their state or provincials, chance to have a bigger prize pool? There's a lot of factors that TDs have to do, and the IFPA has made some changes that have really altered what TDs are doing. It happened last year, and it was the start of what I thought, honestly, was a slippery slope with the basically nerfing of the flip frenzies, which was an extremely popular format. And they were being booked everywhere. Josh was concerned that it was too efficient too quickly, and we'll start to see people slip away from other formats. Well, now, with the 6.0, there are people that are considering, geez, I don't know if I want to play as much as possible because it hurts my efficiency. meaning if a tournament was worth 50 Whoppers and I'm only taking 10 of those Whoppers, my efficiency is 20%. And efficiency is a factor, especially for the top end players, in their pro rankings. And I have heard several top players say, yeah, I've got to watch what I'm playing and watch some of the big events. Yeah, so you're talking about the pro changes for the top 250 players, right? Correct. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting exchange. You know, a lot of talk about this for sure. I like the idea of efficiency to matter, right? Because we've seen it. I mean, in the past 10 years that I've been involved in this, sometimes spamming the number of events is how you get there, right? I mean, let's talk about the Stern Pro Circuit or at some point even the provincial and the state where unlimited events. And is that really what you want? Do you want to give advantage to people that just do a lot of events? So, you know, it's interesting. there is not a lot of sports ranking systems that have an efficiency factor. I mean, there is a few, which I think we looked at for reference and guidelines. But I think it helped. I mean, does that mean some top player would want not to play an event that most likely will not end on their cards? I think some of them already were not doing that in the past, right? There were still some people that cared about the rating aspect of the ranking before. Yeah, I mean, we've definitely seen that. I mean, even this weekend at Nationals and Pin Masters, there was a few top players that didn't play in the strikes event because there was not a lot of value for them. You mentioned District 82, and that is one of the biggest things I want to talk to you. Marty and I were talking before this. Yeah. They're a venue that is a mecca. I mean, Marty and I know a good Australian mate, Simon Peel, who wanted to see District 82 because he heard about this wonderful whopper farm. and we were seeing, going back two years ago, a lot of the top 100 players in the world were magically, somehow, in the Wisconsin area because they had a lot of opportunities. And I am not faulting Eric Thorne at all for that. In fact, I'm applauding him for creating such a wonderful venue and, again, this opportunity and business structure. You know that too as an operator yourself. You want to maximize what you can when you have this pinball facility, and he certainly did that. But now as we are in 2024, I saw the numbers at the winter event that he held in February, which was the Stern Pro Circuit. I think the number was 150 that they were capping it at. They didn't even get to 90. Now, there's some logistics with that. It's February. It's in Wisconsin. Not exactly the greatest time of year to go to Wisconsin. It's also not easy to get to in the sense of direct airport. You're going to have to probably get a hotel. You're probably going to have to maybe get a car if you get an airport. There's a lot of expenses that are out of Eric's control, and that didn't do well as far as attendance. And even the next one that was booked was April. 150 people they wanted. They didn't get to 50 or some odd number before a certain date, and he just canceled it. So my question to you, Jermaine, do you think this is partly in part to IFPA, or is it, okay, Eric has six main events plus the nationals. Was it maybe just too much in the same area and people are picking and choosing? Is it cost? What is it? I mean, we did talk with Eric. Even when we went there in December, I think with Raymond for the Frosty event, already I think Eric saw that things were slowing down a bit. The sign-ups or registration for the February event weren't as high as it was in the past. So he already tried to reach out to people, get some feedback, to just see where it could improve, where some of the lessons learned. I don't think there is just one factor. I think most of what you mentioned are the factors that I think are just slowing down a location that was red hot a couple years ago because they came up on top after COVID. They were leading the pack. They had a lot of momentum, right? so you know when everybody goes there then more people go there because that's where all the points can consolidate and now i mean the weekend of uh the february event the uh the 3x challenge two of their large event were taking place right there was a large match play event on the east coast and there was another one i think uh and i can remember arizona maybe right so there was There was a lot more events where people could choose to go locally or regionally compared to having to travel to Wisconsin. And I think that's a bit of everything, right? I mean, maybe the format as well. You know, people nowadays want to be a little more selective because of Warper 6. Maybe they don't want those five events as much as they used to. Or, you know, a little bit of everything. I don't think it's just one thing. You know, and we talked quite a bit with Eric about it. Maybe more diversity for District 82. I know he doesn't really like best game, you know, pump and dump, papacars, whatever you want to call them because of the logistics, right, I think the scorekeepers and all that. But, you know, try to mix it up a bit, right? The match play tournaments are nice, but you have to be there from 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. every day. It's a marathon when you go to District H, right? It's not the kind of trip you go there to relax. So I think, you know, I think it's a great place. You know, go there absolutely when you can, right? I mean, we've seen a few places in the past you don't want to miss out, right? Anything could happen. I mean, you know, Papa and the Museum of Pinball in California. So, I mean, it's a great place at District 82. You know, there is a lot of choices. So, you know, people only have so much time to allocate to pinball. So that may be why things have slowed down a little bit there. I mean, the place is still great. It's just there's just more out there for people to choose from. That's what I figured it might be Is that the effort to get there Is it's worth it if it's unique But if other venues are starting to get bigger And more appealing Then people won't necessarily make the trek Because whilst you've been talking I've just thought to myself If I lived in America And I wanted to go to District 82 How difficult would it be If I lived on the East or West Coast? So let's just say from East Coast, New York It's about a three and a half hour flight each way will cost you, it was in Australian dollars, so it looked like about $400 Australian, so maybe $250 US. That's a good price if you can get it. Well, and then I'm now looking from West Coast, from LA, so that's an eight-hour flight each way, but it's still return, well, it says $665, so what's that in US? So maybe that's $420?
    16:03
    Yeah, I think it depends on the weekend. It is fairly pricey to fly to Green Bay. There is not a lot of choices from the West Coast, so most of us end up flying to Chicago and drive up. I mean, Raymond has run a shuttle from Chicago to District 82 every time we went. But it's a five-day trip, right? You go on Wednesday and you come back on Sunday. The flights I've been looking at going to Appleton International Airport, which is about half an hour from District 82. So, you know, it's an outsider looking in. I mean, I come from Australia. I don't know whether you knew. and it is this whole podcast has funny accents for somebody listening for the first time i was like what the fuck is this like does anybody speak english but but the point what i'm sort of making is that i i look at that and i go hang on it might not might not be something that i would do every weekend but considering for me to go to a very very large tournament regularly i've got to fly overseas this is actually really quite cheap and not that much of an investment as far as it comes to time. However, it comes back to what you were saying, is that if I've got a tournament that's now growing in my local area and it's not going to cost me $450 return plus half an hour taxi there and back, plus hotel, plus fees to get in, then I wouldn't make the trek. And so maybe that is just a symptom of all the other tournaments getting better, which is a good thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And you know, you don't want to miss your local event either because you're missing in state points, right? So if you have a conflict in local events. You just fly to Alberta, Jermaine, come on. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's still a lot of competition out there for the event, and this year especially. I mean, I know myself, when I went there in February, I told Eric, I don't think I'll be back this year, just because this year, Pittsburgh, Papa, right? So that's two additional events that weren't there in the past few years that, you know, I really don't want to miss major status and nostalgia effect kind of deal, right? So now there's less time for me to go back again to District 82 just because there's other things, right? And it's not just District 82. This year is going to be pretty much three major or my local tournament and one District 82. That's all. I know there's already six trips for pinball. How many times can you go, right, if you're not Jeff?
    18:23
    Yeah, you guys said everything. I've been quiet. And this was my last big one. I don't have anything, but what Jermaine's saying is June gets just crazy. And poor Jermaine, you know, he's been associated certainly with the Northwest Pinball Championship, which is normally in September. They had to move that, and they were given a heads up, which was nice, because it runs the same weekend in which the wonderful return of Papa happens. So he had to move that. And then the Northwest Pinball Show happens the exact same time as the IFPA 19, the World Championship, which Jermaine is one of the 80 selected players, being one of the top players in the world. So there were two kind of conflicts for the Northwest. I mean, hey, if you want to go to the Northwest show in June, I highly recommend it because 80 of the best players in the world will not be there. Good opportunities.
    19:11
    But Jermaine, I mean, you mentioned there are certainly opportunities out there. And yeah, you want to support local, but you can't miss some of these biggies like the majors. So you had to do some shuffling, didn't you? Yeah, we moved back the Northwest Pinball Champs two weeks earlier. The week before Papaw or the weekend we used to use being Labor Day is not the most easy. Most people are travel plans. So we went to the last weekend in August, which is still good. I mean, no major conflict. I know the Beast, great tournament early August. And then, you know, we got the Cleveland pinball show as well a little after that mid-September. So we want to try to look at the national calendar of big tournaments, especially certified tournaments, and make sure we don't overlap too much with anything to try to get people to come to the Northwest, right? The problem is Northwest is pretty far from a large player base in the Midwest and the East Coast, so it's not always easy to get people to travel all the way to Seattle to join our events. So we have to make sure logistically and timeframe-wise it is not conflicting with anything else. Can I ask you a question? Because I don't know whether I've really asked you of this. Maybe we talked about it last episode. But are either of you going to Pinnberg? I am. Yeah, we both are. You are? Yeah. Yeah, cool. Yeah, I just, obviously I didn't know where the Germain was going, but I couldn't remember whether we had spoke about whether you got in this time. Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty lucky F5 situation, right? I mean, I feel like the last real Pinberg, I did not get in. I ended up on the weak list and got in anyway at the end, but I just got a bad F5 refresh situation, and then there was a 1,000 spot, right? But this time, I was at the house, I was ready, and I got in, So I'm happy to go back and support them in bringing back slowly what Pinbeer used to represent for a lot of us. You know, I'm glad they're back. And Marty and I both talked about this before on previous Final Round episodes. Yeah, it's not a thousand people, but they're back and they're rebuilding and they've got big plans to keep moving. So the opportunities were more difficult to get in. But they also have 12, 13, 14 satellite events. You mentioned that a match play format That takes a long time They do a very good job with timing And that something I wanted to talk to you about Again IFPA director Jermaine Marial The different formats have a lot of pros and cons. And one of the cons I always look at is timing of events. Because this past weekend was the Pin Masters tournament, and it's a pin golf format, which the pro, I find it really, really fun because it's unique. We don't see it a lot. The con is, and it wasn't this weekend, I was actually quite proud of them the con sometimes is the timing of it is you don't know how it's going to go it ran really well this weekend and the other con is if a machine goes down holy cow you you know what can you fix that isn't an advantage or disadvantage to those that played before and play after the the big repair you know if a switch goes down if a flipper needs to be rebuilt all these types of things it's pinball it happens that's the one kind of risky thing about pin golf. We don't see a lot of pin golf tournaments, and whether it's sufficiency, timing, difficulty, it's rare when it happens. What do you think about it, Jermaine? Yeah, you know, I love pin golf myself. I find it to be such a different way to attack the game that I really like that strategy aspect. As a TD, it's a very hard format to run, right, because just choosing the right target score can make or break your tournaments from a queuing, from an efficiency of your time slot, T times, right, duration. Also, the machine, just like a best game, like you mentioned, right, or a paper card tournament, if one goes down, you're in big trouble, right, because now you have to either cancel it or keep it going. You know, I think the pin master, the pain master, as they've been calling it, because it was so brutal this weekend, has a perfect spot at District 82 because Eric's machines are rock solid, right? I mean, it is a location made for tournaments. All the games, you know, something could break, but it's very rare that a game goes down for long. He has all the parts to repair them, so that's the perfect location to run, you know, Pingol's Event or Best Game because you know the games are reliable, and that's very important in this case. Okay, I guess I'll go back to, you know, being a tournament director, running tournaments, and looking at the formats that you play in and that you're going to potentially put on, are there some decisions that you've seen that have been made to some of these tournament formats that I don't necessarily want to put you on the spot and say that you disagree with them. Do it. Put them on the spot. Come on.
    23:52
    You kissed his ass earlier. Now it's time to give him a... I got a couple of good ones. You can go there. I got a couple of good ones and Josh knows, so... OK, well, go for it. It's just... Because as a TD, it's stuff that you'll either... It'll either make life more difficult for you or it could even disappoint you because you've worked so hard for something that now becomes a little bit harder. But anyway, the crux of the question is, are there some decisions that have been made to Whoppers or to the formats that you haven't agreed with and had to deal with? 100%. I mean, as a TD, not an IFPA director, but as a TD, we were massive in Seattle with the Super League, right? Right, okay. I remember Super League gate. Yeah. And, you know, we were in Super League, like, I don't think we were trying to game the system. I think back then it was definitely a way to efficiently have player play. But, you know, I was partnering with six to eight different locations in Seattle. They were sponsored for Northwest Champs. Like, it was a good business relationship. It was a good way to try to motivate people to go to other locations, right? So it was actually a good way to promote pinball. obviously there was definitely gaps in the way points were counted and the fact that people were just playing when nobody was around and if the ball was stuck people could just blow it up right you know things like that so the transition to pre to post super league being a thing was very rough just because we have to turn a massive corner where we had partners you know professional and our relationships, sponsors in place every month, right? And, you know, we made it and we changed it to a monthly event. And I just, you know, it was just a very big change that affected quite a large organization we were running at that time. So that was pretty hard for sure. Yeah, I kind of guess that Josh Lassie, everyone's attitude is, this is not necessarily what they say, but how I interpret it, is if people are really caring enough about pinball tournaments and the love of it, they will evolve and they'll continue. Those that don't probably weren't meant to be because they've made those changes because of those people. Yeah, I mean, that's just default answer, which to a certain degree is true. But it also is, it knows that he's just trolling, saying that IFPA points do not matter. But they do to a lot of people. I can tell you, you're on the same event, non-IFPA or IFPA, you will get more people with IFPA points, right? There are definitely IFPA point chasing tournament players out there. And if you offer IFPA point, you will definitely get more people. You still get your casuals for non-IFPA events. I mean, in Seattle, there is a bar league every Monday where there is over 250 people that play in team for different locations against each other. No IFPA point, right? So there is definitely life for social and fun pinball out there. But for most events, IFPA or non-IFPA, you will get more people with IFPA points, right? It's the monster that they've created with the point structure because we all started pinball because it was fun. It's these leagues you mentioned. It's split flipper tournament, which they just did recently at District 82 and they do around the world. There's leagues all across. There's even selfie leagues, all these things that are non-IFPA, but they're still fun. And it's just that carrot of, oh my gosh, there's IFPA and I can do well and I can see my rankings and check my stats and see how I do against my friends, maybe win a dollar here or there. Yeah, you know what? It's a wonderful monster they've created. But you have to, like you mentioned, acknowledge the success of it. We're now 110,000 players in the IFPA that have played some format of tournament or league, and that's pretty exciting too. So you mentioned Seattle, you mentioned the Seattle Pinball League, your company, Seattle Pinball Services, you are a huge operator in that mecca of pinball. And I did want to ask you some questions about picking games, because obviously to you, it's important to have good earners. It's probably important to have maybe new titles, but maybe a mix of games. And then there's the whole pricing issue. I just saw a post in Australia where pinball machines are a little more rare. some places are complaining, oh, this machine's $4 to play, and the norm is pretty much $2. But, for example, you've got a Bond 60th on location, which I think is amazing. Who does? Jermaine. He put it on location. What? Are you? What? Madness, Jermaine. Madness. Everything I've said about you, I take back. This is just ridiculous. Why would you do such a crazy thing? You know, just to circle back a bit, I am not a huge operator, right? This is not my full-time job. I have a real job. I do operation on the side to help with the pinball hobby and other costs, right? So what happened is I started to put machine on location and rent it to people because I ran out of space, right? So these are my machines that instead of having them packed into a corner because they have too many of them, And I ended up finding some location where I could put them on for coin drops, as well as renting to people, especially during COVID and after, people that wanted to try to have a machine at their house. So definitely not a huge operator, but I do have nearly 50 machines and over 35 locations right now. So it's taken quite a turn. And it's great because it helps growing the hobby. And having bought 60S on location, I never even thought about it twice. I mean, a pinball machine is made to be played. I'm not a, you know, pristine collector type person. So, I'd rather my machine gets played in public location that they sit in my garage and I play it once a month, right? So, that never has been a problem. I think you're right, Marty. He's nuts. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I heard words. All I heard was, I'm a bit of a nutter.
    29:51
    Yeah, I don't buy Yeliz. You know, I buy pros. I mean, I think Bond is mostly because it was Keith Irwin's game, right? So I trusted it to be a great game. And is it a solid financial investment? I don't think so. But, you know, sometimes in pinball, you make money. Sometimes you lose money. It's not, again, it's not my retirement plan. It's a great game to have. And we never have doubted that we wanted to share it into the public. So the day we bought it, the day we received that game, it was on location. It never even went to my house. All jokes aside, I actually think good on you for doing that, because there wasn't that many of them. They were obviously priced accordingly. So not a lot of people are going to get to be able to play them. So for you to actually put them in a public location, name the location so people can go and see it. Oh, at the Icebox Arcade in Seattle. There you go. Great location. I mean, there are about 40 games in that location, and they own a bar next door as well, the 4Bs. That's another 25 games. So that location has around 60 games, all the new games as well. We just put Pulp Fiction last week, you know, Jaws, of course, and others, right? So plenty of great locations in Seattle, right? I mean, I'm not going to be biased here. There's tons of great locations. We are very lucky to have the pinball scene we have. Well, I was going to ask that. Seattle, since I've been into pinball and since I've been talking about location pinball, Seattle has always come up as a big pinball scene. Why Seattle of all places?
    31:15
    Well, people tend to joke like most of our activities because of the rain, the indoors activities are very popular. Right. So it rains over 300 days a year in Seattle. Most of it is not bad rain, actually. But so I feel like, you know, pinball is a great indoor activities that people just caught on. And the barcade scene is big, right? You can go to a bar and have some nostalgia with pinball game and arcade machine. And now that, you know, our generation has a little more buying power, plenty of people have machines and arcade and machine at their house. So I think it's just a popular activity around here. And again, we talked about momentum before. I feel like when you have momentum in the community, in the region, then it draws more. More people like pinball. More people, maybe I open a bar, maybe I have pinball. Maybe I know a bar owner that wants pinball, right? And it keeps, I think it just keeps growing with momentum from your own local scene. Yeah, I think weather is probably something I can relate to because I'm in Melbourne and Melbourne is known for lots of rain and cold weather. However, today it is actually in Fahrenheit for everybody in North America. It is currently 100 degrees Fahrenheit in Melbourne. So that's not cool at all. But I say that because Melbourne is known as a cultural city because we have so much rain and cold weather that we've got to do things indoors. And that's why we've got a pretty healthy pinball scene down here too. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I'll be in Melbourne actually in September as well. I'm going to visit with the family. You're coming to Melbourne? We are, yeah. Trip to Australia with the family. Oh, please, let's catch up. Do you want me to leave? Like, do you two want to? Yeah, please. Absolutely. We've got some plans to make now, Jeff, so if you can just put yourself on mute for a second. No, but that's cool. Have you been to Australia before? I've been for work a few years ago, just in and out of Sydney, but I never visited, you know, I never toured anything. So this time we'll be there for two weeks, two and a half weeks, so we'll do. Oh, that's great. Oh, good stuff. It's a fine city. It's okay. By the way, Jermaine, you have a challenge.
    33:25
    Currently, the greatest… I know what you're going to say. You're going to get him to come into a tournament and win it, so he has 100% success rate.
    33:33
    …is North American. So the gauntlet has been sent. If you can win a tournament of over 47 or more people, you will have the title as the greatest and most efficient pinball player ever in Australian history. So good luck to you. but I'm sure you two will work on that. Make sure there's a dick cup too, by the way, Marty, when that happens.
    33:55
    That's assumed. Yeah, but back to operating. So you've got Bond 60th on location. Pricing has to be something you consider because the cost of machines, especially that one, but also are your EMs going to be the same price as your new modern games? Probably not. Maybe they are. I don't know. I know some arcades have card systems and you swipe and it's credits or whatever the case may be. How do you come up with pricing that's going to maximize the revenue for you and Seattle Pinball Services? Tell me how you check monthly stats and how things like that matter. And again, not a full-time professional operator, right? So I think my priority may be a little bit different than others. I think it varies depending on how much machine you have, how many locations. But for me, I think I just follow the guidelines from the location owners, right? So the Icebox Arcade, where I have most of my machine on public operation, Coindrops, they own most of the games themselves there, and I supplement their location mostly with, you know, great playing classics, right? Because classics, machines, you know, Bally's, Stern from the 80s, some Gottlieb as well, machines that need more specialized care. So we had an agreement where I wanted more machines to run events there that were more mixed in type of machine, and I owned them because I had a collection of classic machines. So we put together an agreement that I ended up bringing machines there. And I think I have 12, 13 machines over there, mostly classics with a few exceptions like Bone 60s and Pulp Fiction, Jaws, right? But so I just followed their pricing matrix, which is around usually 50 cents for classic games, including Bally Williams, and then 75 cents for brand new games. and there's a few dollar machines like Bong Fix, yes, or the rarer, more expensive machine. Those are good prices. Yeah, I mean, Seattle is very affordable. There is, again, a lot of location, a lot of competition. So there is plenty of games all around that are still in 50 cents, right? I mean, obviously, brand-new games usually come out more at $75, $1, and there's a few higher, more expensive machines at $1 as well. But, yeah, a lot of competition around here, many locations. I mean, if you go on Pinball Map, I can't remember, I think it's like 300 or 400 games in the region. God, that's a lot. That's so good that everybody out there, no wonder you've got a big scene if you've got that, I guess it's a build it and they will come scenario. Yeah, I mean, it does. I mean, it's hard to get people into pinball, right? It's not the most easy to get used to type entertainment, right? It's easier to sit in front of a screen or play a video game that always reinforces you and gives you positive feedback. Pinball machine, it's harder to get new people to get on board. But, you know, once in a while, you get a friend of a friend that comes for the first time, and they come back a few times, and they get it. They start to understand that you control, that there is rule, and boom, they join a league, and boom, you know, they join tournaments, and you see new people slowly dripping in, right? So, just like you said, the more you have location, the more chance you have to get newer people to discover a pinball machine. Jermaine, you mentioned you have a mix of games. Icebox is the example. You put in some older games there, and you wanted that for tournament play. I see a lot of tournaments, even the beast in which I run, the main bank will have the modern machines, but some solid states as well. It's not all moderns. Very few tournaments do the all-modern thing. I think if only Expo is probably the one that does that, and probably the Stern Pro Circuit final. The bringing in the older games, explain why that's done, And the reason I bring that up is because there's a recent article, I believe it was Nudge Magazine, that talked about newer pinball machines, ones being made right now, are they easier? I put my hand up and say, yes, in the sense that they play longer. I mean, maybe not to complete the wizard mode and stuff, but you're going to get that kind of, here's your easy multiball to start. And that has a bearing on tournaments. But for those that don't care about tournaments, it has a bearing on earners too. Because, yeah, it might be 50 cents to go play a solid state game. but you're going to be done in three, four minutes, whereas I put in 75 cents for a brand new game, and I'm maybe there for five, ten minutes. Yeah, I mean, I would say definitely more approachable, the more easier, right? It depends. I mean, there is a lot of thoughts for operation in the modern game where you get a multi-ball close to the freebie, right? Close to the credit button, where you want somebody that is more of a novice person to potentially do something that will make them come back and make them put more money in the game, right? where the older games, less, right? I mean, at the time, there was no LCDs and the rules were more simple. So it's definitely maybe less type of engagement, you know, theme, music, right? Call out that try to get you back into the game. So to go back to your first question, the classic game for me as a tournament director at that point was to get a mix of games for skills, right? So people would have to play modern and classic machines. Also, because classic machines tend to play quicker, so as you know from an IFPA points perspective, a game is a game. If it's a game of five minutes or a game of an hour, it's worth the same amount of points, right? So from a schedule of tournaments, having some classic machines mixed in there does help being more efficient from a time to points perspective, right? So a bit of both, trying to mix it for skill sets so people just don't blow up Jurassic Park and Godzilla all day. They have to also know how to play on Meteor, on Stars, right, on Alien Star, but also from a tournament perspective, trying to mix the type of events and the type of game in each tournament. Okay. So when you're talking about the different types of machines that you put, what about you personally? Do you prefer modern or older games? Whatever they have in Alberta. That's what his answer is. Oh, God. That's a good question.
    40:06
    You know, it's difficult because I rarely play pinball machines, as weird as it may sound. I spend most of my time fixing, you know, moving machines. I only play during tournaments. I mean, 95% of my time playing pinball machine is during tournaments. At home, I rarely play. And if I do, I would rather usually play a quick game on a classic game because I just don't have the time, right, between my actual job, my family, my side pinball business, repair slash moving pinball machine around. I don't really have time to play a 45-minute game of factory Godzilla. And I don't quite enjoy that as much, right? I'm not a deep ruleset type player. are more of a survive and shoot the shot type difficult game, you know, like shorter games in general, which, you know, if you play in my tournaments, you would know that's how hard usually my modern game I set up. So more of a shorter classic game myself, I think. You actually did answer the question that I was leading to, which was, do you actually play for fun anymore? And the answer is, yes, you do, but in tournaments. It's not – because I guess I was going to say, like, do you get that same sort of excitement that we do and other people do when a new game is released? Do you go, oh, my God, like Bond or whatever is the new game? That looks cool. Or in your mind, just going to the cost value situation of whether you should route that? I would definitely buy a pinball machine that I like, right? Price obviously matters, but I'm not thinking about that from a commercial return on investment type situation, right? I mean, I buy the pinball machine. It will be on location for a bit. It'll be rented for a bit, and then I sell it. Do I make money? Do I don't make money? It doesn't really matter. I buy the game that I like. If it's a very popular scene, but I don't like the game, I will not buy it. It's just that simple because I just don't want it in my collection, right? So I don't buy everything that comes out new. It has to be something that I still like, right? So that does matter. Playing for fun is an interesting question. When I go to tournaments, you know, I travel, I come back, my wife asks me, did you have fun? And I'm not really sure if I want to say yes. For me, it has to do with competition, right? And competition is not always fun. I mean, I really win outright when I come out and I'm like, yes, It was 100% positive. So it is definitely a passion and there is the whole you know the scene the people the competition aspect is challenging I don know I just don know if fun is the right adjective I would use
    42:54
    No, I think that's a fair response. If you asked, like, the top professional sports people, golfers, tennis players, whatever it is, at post-game, if you said to them, did you have fun, they wouldn't say they had fun. It's not a fun thing. It's competition, and competition can be pretty serious. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember, and it's how you see it, right? I mean, you'll never be great at pinball machine. The machines are always going to beat you. I mean, maybe Jason and Escher, I don't know how they feel, but you're always going to lose at some point, right? It's just how you feel, how you did. For me, it's often how did I perform? Like, I know my skill set. I know I'm never going to be top five in the world, and that's fine. I just want to make sure that when I'm done, I don't completely blow it by myself. If I didn't do a pilot error, a fumble, like if I felt like I had a good game, it was satisfying. It was a skillful way of playing pinball. That's kind of what I'm looking for is in those competitive moments to have this good feeling of having performed to my expectation. That's well said. Let's go by looking at it, yeah. Yeah, it is. At the end of a competition, if I get beat by somebody who blew up a game, you tip your cap and go, hey, I gave it my best, and I played really well, but I still lost. No problem there. You know, I didn't embarrass myself. I competed well. But when you pilot error or when you make bad decisions, when you make risky shots that put you in trouble, that's all you. So, you know, you have to try to limit that, and that's the key. And I think the goal is for us to have fun. The reason you said when you come back and your wife asks you to have fun, And you don't want her to get all upset that, oh, my God, I'm going to lose Jermaine. You know, he's having so much fun at pinball. So I just tell Anne, it's a job. You know, I'm expected to be there. It's pinball profile. I'm high profile. All that kind of stuff. Yeah, son, I have to do it. But I missed you every second of the day. Yeah, usually she asks me that after she asks me how much did I win. So you're currently ranked 15th. What's the highest you've been? You know, I think I was checking that last time because it's still weird for me that you clean your profile and you get your normal ranking. But on the main page, it's a pro ranking. So I was trying to catch which was which. And I think maybe I was 13 before or 14.
    45:19
    So around that, I mean, I always feel I'm more like a top 50 player. I'm very lucky that I have a very flexible job and family that allows me a lot of opportunities, right? And this year has been pretty good so far, which helped me at this point to be a little higher than others. But, you know, I have more of a, like, I would say top 25, top 50 player compared to other events. Just don't have the same opportunities, right? Jermaine had a great in-disc for sure and always does. It really highlights that tournament, the consistent players. Jermaine's always been one of those, too. I wanted to bring Jermaine on because I actually owe him an apology. because Jermaine and I were at District 82 probably last February or April, something like that, and I knew you had the big, at the time, Northwest show probably coming up and then the championships in the fall, and we recorded a podcast for Pinball Profile. I recorded a bunch that weekend, and because it was on my phone and I didn't email it at the time, you know, it just sits on my phone, and out of sight, out of mind, forgot about it. The show happens, and I'm like, I think I did a recording with Jermaine. I'm like, oh, shit. It was too late, so I'm like, I'll make it up to you next year. wanted to have him on this podcast. It probably has maybe 10% of the listeners of Pinball Profile. It doesn't matter. The point is you're on. I apologize.
    46:34
    But anyway, the Northwest Pinball Championship, so your event, which is in August. Tell us about that because that is – I've actually got it circled on my calendar this year. Oh, very nice. Yeah, I mean, it's an event that has been running for many years in the area, right, that was started by Kelly Jo, Ed and Sam early on. We've been running this, I think, for six years we've been running it with the pandemic. It is your Papa Kelf qualifying type event. We have open tournaments, the major one, the certified event, the main event, not the major one, obviously, the main event. Then we have classics, high-stake, women's tournaments. We used to have our events tournament on the Sunday, but with the new IFP role, we have to see what's going to happen with that. Dumbest rule, by the way. Dumbest rule.
    47:26
    It's difficult, right? And I see both sides. I see both sides, too. What Jermaine's talking about is if you have a tournament on Sunday and the playoffs for the main are going on, and let's say a consolation three-strikes tournament, you have to allow players to play in both, which means timing-wise it sucks. So you do what Indus does and say, okay, it's a non-IFPA pinball tournament. I'm sorry that we can't make it IFPA, and I know that you've rented a hotel room on Saturday night, and you've got nothing to do on Sunday. We want to give you something to do. Unfortunately, a few greedy bastards who want to play in everything are wrecking it for everyone, and that's why they had to make the rules, because people weren't being able to play both, and so I actually fault more the players than I do the IFPA. So, yeah, the ways around it are run non-match play tournaments. Like if you're on the gauntlet, if you're on a pin golf. Yeah, indirect event does not apply, right? So you could do amazing race. You could do some kind of other indirect tournaments and have the final of your indirect tournament. Maybe you're on the top four of the main events going on, right? So there is less overlap. There is a way around it. I mean, we haven't thought about that yet, but it's just one of them. And last year we sold out because we had 140 players. And even though we have 40 players in the A final and another eight in the B final, that's not even half of the players that were there that weekend, right? So we wanted something else for the player that unfortunately couldn't make it. And also we ran that revenge tournament on the Classic Bank, which is always nice for people that, you know, had not much luck on Classics or didn't make the final to have a little more casual event to play this Classic Machine again. So, you know, we'll have to think about something this year. Jermaine, ever since we sort of caught up I haven't been in tournaments and we get to sort of say hello but sort of in passing like the last one was TPF last year when I was like hey, how are you, good to see you and then you were off upstairs and off downstairs but it's been great to virtually catch up with you again and I hope to see you at a tournament at some stage in the future but certainly I hope to see you in Melbourne later in the year Yeah, sounds great I'll make sure to drop you a line when we have our schedule for what we'll do when we get there. Brilliant. But thanks for coming on the show. Really appreciate it, man. Great. Thanks, guys. Jermaine, take care. Thanks. Thanks, mate. Marty, what have we learned about Jermaine? Well, I didn't learn anything new, meaning I thought, he seems like a really nice guy. Is he? It turns out, yeah, he actually is a great guy. so i didn't know too much about his operating business and i didn't know too much about him running tournaments as well so i will say i did learn that but still great guy yeah a real important person in the ifpa behind the scenes too and very very helpful with tournament directors with people who want to set up leagues and myself included even for the beast which we're going to talk about in a second. Just making sure I've crossed all the T's, dotted all the I's, and I appreciate him and all the work that the IFPA does because it is a hobby that gives me fun. I can say it. I have fun when I play pinball, whether it's casual or competition. So it's funny how it's really changed my life over the last 10 years. I was all about baseball and still am a little bit, but poker was a big thing. That was kind of my hobby, if you will, and I rarely do that anymore because pinball just is so much fun, the game itself. And then you find out. I know this is going to be hard for you to imagine, Marty, but it's actually the people that make it more fun. You get to see all these people. And, yeah, there's some people you want, Dad, you more than most people in the world. But I enjoy being able to reach out to almost any part of the world and like, hey, I know some people there. If I'm there, like Jermaine's going to Melbourne. Like, you got some buds there, Jermaine. It's kind of cool. Yeah, absolutely. So, Marty, here we are. We're at home, not going to TPF this year, which is unfortunate. I'm sure it's going to be a wonderful show. And best of luck to everyone there. You're going to see a lot of fun things. You're going to see the Princess Bride. You're going to see Berrio's Barbecue. You're going to see Centaur. Nitro's bringing that. So there's a lot of pinball machines to see. You're going to see Motorhead, David Peck's new baby. I know. It's not even a re-theme like he did the Zepp one. This is great looking. It does look really good. I don't know. I'm losing my mind. There's so much that's going on that I can't remember what we've spoken about. But I feel we had a conversation. Do you know what? I actually now remember. I think we had a conversation. It was late here one night, maybe last weekend, and we were both speculating. We were talking to each other about whether we were going to TPF, and obviously we're not. But then we sort of asked each other the question, I wonder what's going to be there considering last year had so many reveals. is there going to be anything as exciting? And you've mentioned a couple of things, but the one I really want to talk about, if I can, is Barry O's Barbecue Championship or whatever it's called. Challenge, yes. Barry O's Barbecue Challenge. Sure. Now, first of all, are we going to be the podcast like everyone else that shits on it before we've ever played it and offer our opinion? No, it's quite the opposite. Oh, so our podcast sucks because we're not doing what everyone else is doing. Okay, go ahead. No, we always do what we want to do, right? Yes. So if something comes out, okay, this is what you've got to understand, people. I'm saying stuff that we all know. This is an opinion-based podcast. It's just opinion. It's not a news outlet. It's not necessarily factually based. It's just us putting on the microphones and just saying what we think. So if a game comes out and we don't like it, we'll say that we don't like it. I will generally, and both of us are really quite balanced, we won't say it sucks completely. will say, here's what we don't like about it, but here's what we do like about it. Okay? That's all I'm just saying. I don't do it until I play it. I can't. We don't get to play these games for months after everybody else. So I've got to speculate. And I guess because I'm so used to not being able to play games, in my mind, I have a mental gauge of whether something looks good based on what I see. And I say that because I've had enough experience between what I've seen and then what I've played to know what I see, whether I get it right or not. Does that make sense? Yep. Okay. Again, opinions change. I mean, I think we saw some games that came out and after we played them, we're like, oh, you know, we maybe shit on something we shouldn't do. I've stopped doing that. I have to play it. And I can say this, we're on this podcast talking about Jaws. Hadn't played it yet. I said, here's what I said. I said, I'm looking forward to playing it. And that's the case, by the way, in every single machine. There's not a game I don't want to play that I've never played. So that's about as far as you'll get until I play it. But go on. Okay, side note. Everyone that I've spoken to that's played Jaws says it's fantastic. Anyway, let's talk about Barry O's barbecue challenge. Because, again, it's one of those things where people are like just shitting on it. So I'm looking at it. I've seen some video footage from Zapcom, which is this weekend. I don't know where it is. Arizona. Okay, cool. That sounds good, wherever that is. I'm just going to tell you. My first thought was, it does remind me of Hot Wheels, which isn't a bad thing. Second of all, I looked at it and went, this looks like it's going to be fun. I don't care too much about, well, that's a lie. I fucking love food. Okay?
    54:58
    And I fucking love barbecue, as we've spoken about many times. Is it a AAA theme? No, of course it's not. But is it fun? Is it just shits and giggles? Fuck yes. It's shits and giggles, people. It's just fucking shits and giggles. And I welcome it. I'm really surprised by how much I like it. And if you go to, I think it's the American Pinball Fans Facebook group, there is, as of now, because it's Sunday afternoon, it's still 100 degrees in Melbourne. So Jake Danzig did put video footage of him at ZapCon. It just looks fun. It looks silly fun. Jeff, that's all I'm saying about it. It just looks silly fun. I'm actually going to make a road trip to Pocketeer Billiards to go and play it. I haven't even played it. And I have a connection to the damn thing. Oh, what's that connection? I was thrilled and honored to be asked by the American Pinball team to voice the game. And why it's an honor is one, let's face it, it's cool to be on a pinball machine. But Barry O was somebody that was very special to me. He was a wonderful man. And I don't know if you remember this. I interviewed him right as he got hired by American Pinball. The poor guy had been out of pinball for a long time. Deep Root kind of screwed him over. He was looking forward to getting back into it. And the same with great people like John Norris and all that stuff. And Deep Root just didn't happen. So the fact that he got to, all right, I'm with American Pinball. I'm going to get to make a game. I did an interview with him. He died four days after that interview. I know. So I asked his wife, his widow, if they wanted it to air. I actually sent it to her. And I said, it's very, very, very touching. especially now it was at the time even more so now after the fact and they gave their blessing to run it so just i had great conversations with barry and a lot of it was about food so the fact that they're doing this it's perfect there you go yep so i was asked matt kern david feel i mean to work with these guys give me a break it was good so uh i'm dying to play the game steven bowden i'm so excited his rule set his uh input in this game you know this is this is bigger for Stephen Bowden than it is probably anybody else. You know, this is his baby. And again, haven't played it, but the feedback I've heard from it is like, wow, pleasant surprise. You'll get the naysayers saying, oh, it's not a licensed theme. Is pinball fun whether or not it's a licensed theme or not? Absolutely. I will agree that I might not buy it until I play it because it's a theme I may or may not identify with. I get that. Get it on a present. But that doesn't mean if it's great. I'm looking at a machine I have in my collection that is the perfect theme that probably isn't a lot of fun.
    57:44
    And, hey, whatever. God bless the rules. Well, it's, I love Steve Ritchie. Anyway, we've talked about it.
    57:53
    If it's fun, I'm in. It looks fun. And as I said, first of all, it reminded me of Hot Wheels, just the layout and where the ramps were. And Hot Wheels is so much fun to shoot. So, I don't know. I'm just going to say, if I was in the market, I reckon I'd get this. Good, good, good. That's how much this has surprised me. How much this is just, I don't know. I just think this is just dumb and in such a good way. You know what I mean? Just dumb fun. People, stop being so fucking serious. From what I know from the rules and what I was asked to voice and the modes and things like that, It reeked of, oh, is this ever fun? And nostalgic, too, thinking of various histories. Yep. That was nice, too. I had people over at my house a couple days ago for a league night, and they were playing, again, a non-licensed game, a former homebrew that is Legends of Valhalla. And when the night was done, Ian Harrower, who is a great, great player, he did Birdwatcher for Multimorphic and is creating more with Ian Harrower games. We were playing some dollar games after, and he kept going back to this. He's like, this is fun. And I'm like, yeah, you just have to play a machine to find out whether you like it or not. Yeah, true. So give it a try before you shit on anything, you know. And then if you don't like it afterwards, okay, your opinion is correct. That is your opinion. But I can't poo-poo anything until I get my hands on it. Us telling the Internet to not be the way they are is just… No, we're going to change it right now. Fuck off, Internet. You suck. You do fucking suck. Have you noticed that lately?
    59:34
    I might have. Yeah, anyway. So that's there. Princess Bride. You want to talk about a game I want to get my hands on. Congratulations to Jerry Stellenberg, to Josh Kugler, to Eric Priebke, to Colin McAlpine, even though you have thoughts on him, Marty.
    59:54
    That game looks absolutely perfect for that type of machine and platform. I got to see videos of it before it came out and I was just like, oh my god, Steven Silver, congratulations to him too. This thing is going to be a hit at TPF for sure. It's just, it's what we've been waiting for. I think ever since what I want to say, probably, you know, we had our final resistance and now this, this is pinball. And what's great is that you've got everything else as well that now fits in this whole ecosystem. But these are the games that scratch the itch and then you can enjoy everything else. You know what I mean? Like, you've got this and Birdwatcher all in the same thing. Like, you can play Birdwatcher and go, okay, I'm done with this. I'm now going to go and put another module in and play a completely different game. It's just, it's, oh, actually, I think Birdwatcher will probably play with this module so you can keep it in. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just, I think this platform is now coming into its own and I am very pleased for them. A great investment. Congratulations to Multimorphic and the team for this, and we'll get the feedback again. We're recording this the weekend before. I'm sure we'll see a lot of video and highlights, but I know the lineup at the Multimorphic section will be well attended at TPF, too. By the way, we're not skirting anything here. I just want to point out, and I'm saying this. Marty doesn't even know I'm doing this. This is a podcast in which we basically just two friends shooting the shit. Sometimes we talk pinball, sometimes we don't. We just have fun really going back and forth with each other, bringing on great guests as we can, occasionally killing people and stuff. But I do want to point out, this is not a Haggis podcast. So if you're wondering, hey, why aren't they addressing what recently happened in Haggis? Because our last episode happened before the news announcement. I'm not going to put my friend Marty Robbins on the spot. Damien is the spokesperson for Haggis. He has said what he said. I am somebody who has invested in Haggis. I have put my money down on a Centaur, and I am excited that you've got a Centaur there at TPF so people can see your fine products. And whatever struggles are happening right now, by the way, last time I checked, everyone goes through whatever their struggles are. I wish you the best of luck, and I'm excited that Centaur is going to be seen and played at TPF. So there, I said it. Cool story.
    62:16
    Cool story, bro. I appreciate that. It's what it is. I want to say thank you to everybody that's actually reached out to me directly and offered support. That's the main thing, right? So anyway, go and play the game. Yeah. I talked to you many days after that and called you while you were at work. So shit's still happening. Yeah, I'm still there. Yeah. So, hey, you know what? Let's just – we'll get through this. And, I mean, this is a company that started during COVID. Like, they were behind the eight ball the whole time and are now on their third game. and fingers crossed, everything's going to be fine. It is a bump in the road, and let's hope we can get through this. And I'm not asking for my money back. I'm excited when that game comes, and when it comes, it comes. It's coming from another part of the world, for fuck's sakes, which is difficult. This is transitioning, too, because I was talking to our good friends also at Pinball Brothers. They have the same thing. They have that stigma of like, oh, shit, I don't know about buying across the seas. If it's not made in North America, what's it going to be like? Pinball Brothers has since opened a, I guess, a Pinball Brothers USA kind of website or just some sort of assistance. Maybe that's what's needed for these companies outside of North America. David Van Ness, he's an Aussie. He set up shop in Texas. Maybe that's more of a comfort zone, but it shouldn't be the biggest concern. The concern for a person buying is you might have to pay a little more because shipping is certainly involved. Okay, but if the cost is what the cost is, it usually retains the value. And I've had a lot of fun playing Haggis games. I've had a ton of fun playing Pinball Brothers, whether it's Queen, whether it's Alien. I fucking loved, loved playing Full Throttle when that came out. So it doesn't really matter to me where it comes from. It matters how good the game is. Isn't that funny? We just keep coming back to that. I agree with you but you got to understand that we I don know if I mentioned this before I live in Australia Yeah Sorry if that a real shocker for you if you hearing that for the first time So you got to understand that we I don know if I mentioned this before I live in Australia Sorry if that a real shocker for you if you hearing that for the first time So you got to understand every game comes from overseas
    64:22
    They all come from overseas. Yeah, you pay high shipping on everything. You're right. I never thought of that. Correct. So not only do we get things two, three months after everybody else, we usually pay a premium upwards of 20% on a game. And that's just – it's shipping. It's also margin that local distributors make as well. So it's just – that's what it is. Didn't England have some ridiculous tax after Brexit too where they had to face – Oh, my God. So everyone's got this problem. I remember – UK in particular. Yeah. I remember talking to somebody – I won't mention their name – but somebody that – friend of the show that we both had a Munsters. And I remember, you know, back this is back, Munsters was way before the COVID hike of prices. And I remember, so I think Munsters cost me $13,500 Australian dollars. And I think taking conversion into fact, I think that person paid $19,000 Australian dollars for their Munsters. To get to the UK. Wow. Get to the UK. So it's crazy over there. Well, talking about shipping games. kudos to former guest of this show and friend from that eastern part of Australia known as New Zealand David Peck Motorhead fuck dude does that look good yep it really does I wasn't expecting it to be a single level play field but I'm glad that it is and I'm also glad that it's a very I don't know it's it kind of reminds me of Stern Electronics games. If I had to look at the layout and the style, the obvious is there's going to be a bit of Sea Witch there, but I don't know. I think there's other Stern games of that era that it's reminiscent of where there's just some really cool geometry. Three pop bumpers, none of them are close to each other. Like, really cool lower pop bumpers, you know where Godzilla is? There's one there, and then there's one on the left side, and stand-ups behind the one on the left to basically give you whatever the points are. Holy shit, three spinners on this game. Homebrew? I want to play this game. My God, does it look fun. Yeah. And I'll say this, because David is a massive, massive Judas Priest fan. I saw a Judas Priest concert once, and Ronnie James Dio of Black Sabbath was playing. It was a co-headliner tour. And you want to know who the best of that show was? It was actually Motorhead who opened the show. Motorhead blew everyone away. and hey i'm going to see heaven and hell the sabbath and judas priest uh motorhead should have closed the show so i'll hear that they could be a big big winner at tpf with this one i'm not a big fan of motorhead i mean obviously ace of spades which i first saw on the young ones if you've ever the young ones wouldn't have been a thing over there would have been no no in fact you get flagged if you google young ones i think on the internet with rick rick male do you know who rick male is no okay okay adrian edmondson no nigel planer nope are these people what are they so this was a show it was a british comedy show i'm just gonna remember what year it was like 1980 or something 82 there you go and it was about these four housemates living in london and hilarious the young ones and did you ever see the movie drop dead fred long long time ago That person that was the imaginary friend Was Rick Mayle So he and Adrian Emerson in particular They also did another comedy show called Bottom Which was also Hilarious Normally we actually say goodbye to our listeners As opposed to bring up a content like this And they just leave us But anyway, go on No, because I'm telling you now For all the people that know They're all going Oh my god, yeah, the fucking young ones The best fucking thing but you know it's not an it's not an american or north american thing but anyway motorhead we're on the young ones doing ace of spades and that's how i knew the song yeah i was pleasantly surprised when i saw that concert and just the energy and just oh my god it's uh rest in peace lemmy but uh that game it's got four flippers so three on the right side there's oh like there's this is cool look at the picture if you're friends with david pack definitely check it out at tpf so you've got that you've got centaur there you've got burials barbecue can we say i also just wanted to say you've also got art by brad albright now i say that because he is just one of these people that i always look forward to seeing at these shows and it's one of these bizarre things and i know you know it because we are both so internet you know pinball famous but i remember the first time i met brad was actually at tpf and he gave me a poster and i'm like thanks whoever you are I had no idea who he is. But obviously I now look forward to seeing him every time I go. He is just a fucking great guy. And he did the art for this because he also did the art for the Led Zeppelin homebrew that David Peck did. Can't agree anymore. That art looks really good and perfectly themed for the Motorhead pinball machine. So you've got that. You've got barbecue. You've got centaur there. And, of course, Princess Bride. Who knows if there's any other surprises? It's already a good show with those four. that you're going to get to see. And another thing about Texas, too, as you know, the collectors there in Texas are just so passionate about modding up their games. There's that clear oil flush game that has the clear cabinet and stuff, and you just get to see some real treats there. Wish I was going, but it wasn't in the card this year. Yes, I wish I was there, but I'll be there in spirit, guys. You know, Marty, we asked Jermaine what he thought about newer games. Are they too easy? I didn't really ask you your thoughts on that.
    70:24
    Are new games too easy? No. Yes and no. I think that Godzilla is too easy. I've mentioned that. I think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is too hard. I thought Jurassic Park, let's say that's relatively new, I thought that was nice and balanced. A lot of people say it's really difficult.
    70:42
    I think it comes down to a combination of the layout that you're given, whether that's a difficult layout, and then the rules that will either make it harder or soften. The example I'll give is Walking Dead is a pretty tough and brutal layout, but the rules have softened it, if that makes sense. But my take on modern games is the rules are too complicated, too long, too big, and reward you. The joke I say is if you hit the start button without any money in it, you get a jackpot. A lot of newer games, and name the company, fill in the blank, you're going to get a multiball maybe within three shots, four shots. And that's exciting for players. It makes you want to play again. You get to see part of the game. Multiballs are fun. It's chaotic. It's cool. It's a wow moment in pinball. It's probably not worth a lot of points if it's competition. but when you see a lot of new games and you try to attack it the first time, okay, how do I start a mode and bring in a multiball? Pretty much you name a game, that's the way. You mentioned Walking Dead. That is a long time to get a multiball, so you have to do well in modes and you have to progress with the drop targets. Yeah, yeah. That's why I think Walking Dead is near perfection. On a playfield that is, you know, like really needed the code. Yeah, but do you remember playing it for the first time? I kind of enjoyed it, but I'm like, jeez, this game is fucking brutal. And I think, as I said, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is the same. It's too fast, too brutal, and needs just a bit of softening. Yeah, it's one of those games I really want to get more time on. And I think I was at the Delaware Pinball Collective, and I was there in December, and I actually spent a lot of time on it, really to get to know it, because I don't see it that often, and everyone was kind of telling me what to do. And once you know what to do, boy, it's a lot more fun. So that intuitiveness is really, really important for games. I had people come over here and play Rush, and I said to them, out of all the games, and I have 10 in my basement here, I play that more than anything else. And I said, I'm glad I own it, because it's pretty difficult to explain. It's fun as hell once you're into it, but it's not the most intuitive game. And owning it certainly makes it easier. So here's the thing. Like the majority of games go into homes these days. We know that. And I think the home market is what's really sort of said, we want these long and complicated rules because the longer and the more complicated they are, the longer a game is going to be in someone's basement or in someone's house. Right. So if you're then, because it used to be always, if it was Keith Johnson, you knew it was going to be a really long rule set. Well, he's not the only one that does them now. Everyone's doing these big, long rule sets. so if you have created this big long rule set you kind of want people to be able to see a lot of it don't you and the only way you can do that is to make the game easier well i actually like the alternative that we've seen you know i owned keith johnson keifer he's been on the show i'm a big fan of his games in fact the one game that never leaves my place is the simpsons pinball party and that is a deep, deep, deep code. I used to have a World Poker Tour game. Both those games, I have never come close to completing the game. So I appreciate that. They're deep because it makes you go back and there's fun things to do. I enjoy the Pirates code, even though owners would like to see a little more update on that stuff. Guns N' Roses, big new code update. So that's going to be pretty cool. I like playing Guns N' Roses. Sure. Yeah, so I think the code being deeper is, you know, you get the easy multi-balls, that's fine. But because so many machines are in homes, you have to have that kind of code in there for the deeper stuff. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying we're just a, I say victim, but it's just a situation. It's just a symptom of where we're at the moment where people are buying games for their home. They want to get their money's worth. And obviously, again, you know, people's prices have gone up. So people need to get their money's worth. and that's where you get the longer code and that's where you get the easier games that get you through more of the code so you feel like you've got your money's worth. I have six modern games here and I'm looking at them and I've only been to the wizard mode in one of them. Which one's that? ACDC and it was only COVID just going and going trying to get those 12 songs for encore and I've done it four times. I haven't completed the wizard mode if there is a completion I can't remember but I like that challenge of that. It's, you know, you're going to be in for a grind. I haven't even come close on Godzilla Rush.
    75:30
    Nope. I ended at 21.06. You need 21.12. Couldn't do it. Simpsons Pinball Party, I don't know if I can ever do that.
    75:39
    Zeppelin, I've been pretty close. Somebody asked me about Valhalla. What's the Wizard Mode like? I'm like, I'll let you know when I find out. No idea.
    75:46
    I'm the same. I think Wizard of Oz, I've gotten the Wizard Mode a couple of times. Star Trek I was close really close I had two modes to get what a Jurassic Park I was very very close to Jurassic Park okay there you go that's what I like about the new games I probably should have continued on my earlier statement is yeah you might not get to the wizard modes but you know what you can play Escape Nublar you can play whatever the wizard mode is on the Zeppelin top of the charts or whatever it is you can do that kind of stuff on the new games. You could do a mini wizard mode start on Avengers and things like that. I like that. And Turtles, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've also got those funny modes, like what's the impossible mode or something? Impossible game where the flippers don't stay up or something. Yeah. Yeah, I think they're trying to do things to make games have more longevity, which is fine. I'm okay with that. Well, they also do things like Insider Connected. It is more addictive than I thought it would be. Case in point. March Madness. Jaws.
    76:54
    Nothing controversial about it. I say this many times. No good deed goes unpunished. Here they are trying to have a little bit of fun, getting people going out. Maybe wasn't the most thought out way. You know, we're going to take the average score. Probably should have taken the median. That's first point. How do you do it when you don't allow scores to continue? Or how do you know if there's a tilt bob in the machine? or you're going to do a code update in the middle, which will change the scoring.
    77:23
    I think the idea was exciting. It certainly got people to play, but my God, people go fucking nuts over this stuff.
    77:32
    Yeah. What's the controversy? What happened? Someone put up a ridiculously high score, which was a scoring bug. It was Eric Stone, wasn't it? Eric Stone. kept hitting the reel on the top right of the corner.
    77:48
    Top right corner. And it just went exponential, like four trillion, I think the number was. Not billion, trillion. Yeah. And so Stern came and said, oh, we've had to get the umpires in and make a decision. Something's fishy. Yeah, we're voiding that score. And the internet exploded.
    78:09
    That's the second time you said the internet is questionable at times, Marty. why do you keep bringing that up like i'm saying that i say that every episode it's just a better context this episode yeah the internet by the way voted and they agreed that my argument about jurassic park last episode kicked the shit out of yours over metallica no one gave any feedback yeah fuck you listeners no one gives a shit how many podcasts do you listen to and there's lots where the hosts absolutely despise anyone listening. Put up your hand. That's us. Welcome to Final Round.
    78:50
    But I've also noticed we haven't, in the last few episodes, given out our email or our socials. We've kind of ignored that. Is that the reason? Because maybe our listeners are just too fucking stupid to remember our email address. It's possible. Okay, well, it is finalroundpinball at gmail.com. It's finalroundpin at X if we've still got it. And it's finalroundpinballpodcast on Instagram. You can contact us, guys. Say hello. We do like people emailing us. Have we got time to read out one email? Well, I know it's not from that cunt from Denmark. What the hell is email?
    79:24
    I'm calling him out. So this is from Corey Hulse, friend of the show. He said, hi, Jeff and Marty. You asked some questions in recent episodes, so I've done some data and invested a good bit of work for you. You asked if Rocky was in Pinberg. in 2019, Rocky was used as a backup. In 2017 and 2018, it wasn't used. So it must have... I remember playing it. So it must have been 2019 that was when it came out as a backup. Well, I stand corrected. I didn't see that. I would have been all over that because... Yeah, it was there. Oh, there's so many games to play. Unless it's in your bank, you're not really going to play them, right? And it's not like you were allowed to play the games once competitions start. Like, that's instant yellow card. Correct. If it was a substitute game, you wouldn't have seen it when you did a walk around anyway. He said, so Australia's most winningest player. Yes. I've crunched some numbers and I can report that Jeff is one of only five players to have won 100% of events they've played in Australia. There are a total of 5,659 players who have played in an event in Australia. Jeff joins the likes of Sean Berry, Kadri Talmat, David Kimmel, and Emmanuel Bogiatas. Well, those four had questionable games, if I'm being honest. There was a lot of controversy over how they won. Whereas mine was on stream. It was clean. It was also big, too. 47 people. You keep bringing it up. I don't want to do it every show. It seems like a broken record. Just again, let's just let it pass for now. Okay. Let me just finish this email and then you can talk your crap. So that being said, Jeff has played in 28.06 points worth of events, which only puts him at 1,868th in terms of event points attempted and is only at 0.3% of Jason Lambert, who has won 51% of the 9,191 points that he has attempted. So Marty is holding his own.
    81:27
    578 points of 1,645 at 35.17%. I'm the 34th most efficient player. So, you know what this means. Corey, your email has been blocked on final round. You can go fuck yourself, Corey.
    81:45
    He's also said, he's throwing in a quick plug, he's running a March Madness bracket where he's taken pinball machines in the Pinstock Top 100 and broken them down into 26 conferences where people can vote for their favourites. In mid-March, they'll take the winners and best machines and make it a 64 machine knockout bracket. Corey's great. Ran Allentown for many years. So even though you're banned from the program, Corey, thank you for your fine, fine email.
    82:10
    Well, go to pinballspinner.com slash spin slash pinball madness and do some stuff. You know, selfishly, I could have led the program with this, but I didn't. I saved it for the end. When we've lost all of our listeners after you fucking talked about a movie no one has seen, It was a TV show and it was very popular. Yeah. When's that theme pinball machine come out? Okay. Seriously, anybody that has watched or seen The Young Ones, the TV show with Rick, Vivian, Neil, and Mike, every single person, I want you to email finalroundpinball at gmail.com and shove it right up Jeff's ass just because he's never heard of it, therefore it's not popular. everybody please email us right away rocket man i'll bring that up again rocket man was a fucking spectacular movie and the fact that you're endorsing a movie that from a guy who said rocket man was shit tv show yeah whatever anyway oh my god it's a tv show back to what i want but since the last time we recorded uh big news in the tournament world Jermaine touched on it. Papa is back. Papa is going to be exciting. It's going to be in September. It's going to be in Chicago. It's going to be at Antarium. Holy fuck is this going to be great. Now five majors back in pinball. They are taking Marty. You might even have a fucking shot. 72 people will make the playoffs. That's awesome. Yeah. Okay. So why will I have a shot? You're not bad at playing. But how would I qualify? you play cards like i think fuck i don't even know i assume it's in this cards you have to put your best five games on a card oh it's gonna be good already signed up looking forward to it love that it's a a charity event in memory of lyman f sheets thank you penny epstein and andy bagwell for putting this together and everyone with ifpa and papa and kevin martin and oh great i mean we were excited about pimberg now we got papa too oh there's only one thing it can make it better. Is it possible? Yes! It's back, baby! The Beast! Yeah! August 1st to the 4th at Pocketeer Billiards in Buffalo, New York. This fucking tournament paid out so much last year. I'm afraid to even say it on a podcast because IRS will be all over it, but there was $30,000 in cash and prizes given away, and it's only going to be bigger and better this year, so go to pinballprofile.com. You'll see at the top but a link for The Beast. Tickets go on sale April the 6th. Ooh, going to be fun at Pocketeer Billiards. Looking forward to it. The Beast, it's back. Excellent. Good. Marty, we've only got a few minutes left, and like we do on this program, because we want equal time, do you have anything you'd like to say in wrapping things up? Yeah, there's a couple of things I wanted to say. Actually, well, if you're going to just interrupt all the time, then what's the point of me actually saying something? You want to go or do you want me to go? You asked me if I had something to say. I know I said that, but I also have... I circled, I emailed you. Who's actually enjoying this segment where we talk about each other? Why don't you read another fucking Corey Hulse email? Who's enjoying it?
    85:26
    That's it, fuckers. You know where to email us. Final round, pinball at gmail.com. You better or you might never fucking see us again. Correct. Later. Bye.