Episode 1080: "Screaming & Streaming: Thoughts on Kong & Dune Streams"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·18m 40s·analyzed·Apr 18, 2025

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Kong streams well but lacks emotional resonance; Dune feels premature; Predator threatened by tariffs.

Summary

Kaneda critiques Stern's King Kong stream, praising gameplay depth but questioning the cell-shaded animated art direction compared to live-action precedents like Jaws and Godzilla. He expresses concerns about Barrels of Fun's Dune Pinball appearing unfinished at reveal with pending licensor approvals and incomplete code, while noting Pinball Brothers' Predator faces tariff-related production uncertainty. The episode reflects on community pricing dynamics and manufacturer transparency.

Key Claims

King Kong's animated aesthetic lacks the emotional connection and maturity of live-action precedents like Jaws and Godzilla
high confidence · Kaneda argues that if Jaws and Godzilla were fully animated like Kong, they would have less appeal and feel more childlike/comic-book-like rather than conveying the serious dramatic tone of the original films.
King Kong will not hold secondary market value like Jaws and will not be a 'bolt to your floor' game long-term
medium confidence · Kaneda predicts Kong LE will sell out but depreciate faster than Jaws, drawing comparison to how increased Jurassic Park LE production diminished demand.
Dune Pinball appears incomplete at reveal with pending licensor approvals on movie clips and minimal code implementation
high confidence · Kaneda observes barren screen displays with watermarked 'pending licensor approval' clips and notes the game is not ready for full evaluation.
Pinball Brothers' Predator production is threatened or halted due to tariff issues
medium confidence · Kaneda cites interviews with Pinball Brothers discussing potential production halts due to tariffs, noting Predator was supposed to release in two weeks but is now uncertain.
Stern is producing King Kong at high volume ('an ocean of them being made right now')
medium confidence · Kaneda notes robust production capacity enabling rapid market penetration within weeks.
Higher game prices ($10,000-$15,000) intensify community criticism and opinion-sharing
high confidence · Kaneda explains that pricing tiers drive stronger opinions because community members are priced out of purchases, making free opinions substitute for actual buying power.
Barrels of Fun delayed Dune reveal due to production/licensing constraints, not readiness, to keep orders flowing
medium confidence · Kaneda speculates Barrels needed to maintain order pipeline because manufacturing line is idle (waiting for Labyrinth orders to dry up), forcing premature reveal.

Notable Quotes

“Imagine if both Jaws Pinball and Godzilla on the screen had animations and not live action footage... And here's what's crazy, is I think the animations in King Kong look really good. They're a little bit disjointed.”
Kaneda @ ~5:30 — Core critique: animations are technically competent but narratively disjointed, lacking the emotional cohesion of live-action precedents.
“It feels like King Kong is a special guest in a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle episode. That's what the artwork starts to feel like.”
Kaneda @ ~8:45 — Illustrates perception that art direction feels juvenile and tonally misaligned with Kong's iconic imagery.
“We're grown men complaining about the hue color of King Kong pinball that costs $13,000 or $7,000.”
Kaneda @ ~9:30 — Self-aware acknowledgment of community nitpicking while defending its legitimacy given price point.
“I think King Kong is going to do well for Stern. I don't think it's going to do extraordinarily well for Stern. I don't. I really don't. I don't think it's going to sell like Godzilla did.”
Kaneda @ ~26:00 — Prediction that Kong will underperform relative to Godzilla due to lower COVID-era pricing and superior game design of Godzilla.
“It just feels like this game's not ready. It's not ready to show us yet.”
Kaneda @ ~14:15 — Assessment that Dune Pinball's licensing gaps and incomplete code forced a premature reveal.
“The only thing that's not subjective is how well a game sells. Numbers don't lie.”
Kaneda @ ~27:00 — Reframes debate away from opinion toward measurable market outcomes as final arbiter.
“If Barrels of Fun announced Goonies, they would have sold a thousand in one day, even with incomplete software.”
Kaneda @ ~29:30 — Indicates IP/theme selection is critical to sales velocity; Dune is not a 'slam dunk' theme like iconic licensed properties.

Entities

King KonggameDune PinballgamePredatorgame Harry Pottergame Kanedaperson Keith Elwinperson

Signals

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product_strategy: Kaneda argues that $10K-$15K price points intensify community criticism because priced-out players substitute opinion-giving for purchasing power, creating feedback asymmetry that frustrates manufacturers.
high · Direct statement: 'The moment you ask us for $10,000 to $15,000 for games, we're going to have much stronger opinions now than if these games were like $6,000 or $7,000.'
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design_philosophy: Kaneda identifies a fundamental design choice at Stern: moving from licensed live-action footage (Jaws, Godzilla) to original cell-shaded animation (Kong). He argues this shift reduces emotional maturity and thematic authenticity while increasing perceived juvenility.
high · Extended analysis comparing hypothetical animated Jaws/Godzilla to Kong, concluding animation 'feels more like a Netflix cartoon' and 'more childlike,' reducing emotional connection.
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product_concern: Dune Pinball launched with watermarked 'pending licensor approval' screen assets and minimal code, undermining first impression and preventing full evaluation of game vision.
high · Kaneda observes: 'It just feels like this game's not ready... how can you release a game when your movie clips have to have a watermark that it's not ready for licensor approval?'
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supply_chain_signal: Pinball Brothers facing potential production halts or delays on Predator due to tariff issues, threatening two-week release schedule. Interviews suggest possible cessation of product line.
medium · Kaneda references interviews where Pinball Brothers 'basically been saying that we might need to halt production of our product because of tariffs.'
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Topics

Cell-shaded animation vs. live-action media in pinball game designprimaryKing Kong (Stern) artistic direction and secondary market value retentionprimaryDune Pinball incomplete software and premature reveal strategyprimaryTariff impacts on pinball manufacturing and international distributionprimaryPinball pricing tiers ($7K-$15K) and community opinion dynamicsprimaryManufacturer transparency on sales figures and earnings reportingsecondaryTheme selection impact on game sales velocity (IP licensing value)secondaryCommunity criticism vs. manufacturer effort/goodwill in small niche marketssecondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.35)— Kaneda expresses genuine appreciation for gameplay design and mechanical innovation while harboring serious reservations about artistic direction, pricing strategy, and market positioning. Positive toward Keith Elwin's shot design and Stern's production efficiency; negative toward Kong's animation choices, Dune's incomplete reveal, and Predator's tariff jeopardy. Frustrated with community hostility but defends its economic legitimacy. Ultimately skeptical of Kong's long-term market performance relative to Godzilla.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.056

All right, well, King Kong is streaming. Some people are still screaming. Dune Pinball doesn't look fully finished. Predator might not even make it out now, thanks to tariffs. And Kaneda has a cult. Here I am. It is Thursday afternoon. Welcome to Canada's Pinball Podcast. Let's talk about what's happened over the last 24 hours. So the design team over at Stern Pinball has streamed the game. This is great. They streamed the game right away. It's always nice to see more of a game when you are being asked by your distributors to pony up $13,000 for the FOMO version of the game, the LE. And so we got about 35 minutes from the design team showing us King Kong. What do we think now? Have the gripes around the artwork subsided? Does the game come together now that you've seen it? Is there enough in this game? Gary Hardy is saying this might be the next Godzilla, the greatest game of all time? Nobody knows. I don't know. You don't know. What I do know is I think each and every one of us is seeing a game that looks like a lot of fun. I mean, you can't really like pinball and not watch a stream of that game and not want to hop on it. That doesn't mean you have to buy it. It doesn't mean I saw enough to want to own one. But from a pure pinball standpoint, Keith Elwin once again has delivered a game that has a lot in it. It's got a lot of things to shoot at. It's got a lot of code in it. And there's obviously a lot more coming in this game code wise. But here's my thing about King Kong. And it's like more of like my macro observation of this game. And you think about the Keith Elwin machines recently that people really love. you got Jaws and you got a game like Godzilla. Okay, so just let's take those two games for example. Imagine if Jaws and Godzilla, imagine if nothing in the gameplay changed at all. Same mechanism, same artwork, same toys, same layout. Imagine if nothing there changed. But imagine if both Jaws Pinball and Godzilla on the screen had animations and not live action footage. Imagine if they took scene for scene, second for second, and they just animated everything that was on those screens. So you'd have animated Roy Scheider. You'd have an animated shark. You'd have everything animated. Same thing with Godzilla. animate all of those Godzilla clips and make it more like King Kong. And here's what's crazy, is I think the animations in King Kong look really good. They're a little bit disjointed. It's hard to kind of follow a little bit as I was watching the stream, because you're like bouncing back and forth between some jungle stuff. Then he's in a city throwing taxi cabs. Then I'm back in a jungle with a spider. Now I'm climbing a building. It's all over the place. And I'm not sure how I feel about that. It doesn't feel like I'm on this journey. It doesn't feel like there's a progression that makes much sense. It's like everything's happening at the same time. And I don't know. I don't know how I feel about that. It just feels disjointed. We did have the same complaint about Jaws early on. That it did feel disjointed. And as that code matured, I think things got a lot more cohesive. So this game is still early on when it comes to software. so maybe it is going to become more cohesive. But my point being this, if Godzilla and Jaws were animated like this game is, I don't think they would have nearly as much appeal. There's something about when you go animate it with the game, it feels more like a Netflix cartoon. It feels a little bit more like it's for kids. And you lose a lot of what was in those King Kong movies because you lose the ability to create more of an emotional connection with the subject matter, and it feels more childlike. And that also what a lot of the griping is around the cabinet artwork is it just feels more like a comic book right It almost like King Kong versus X It feels like King Kong is a special guest in a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle episode. That's what the artwork starts to feel like. It doesn't feel like the iconic Kong imagery a lot of people are used to. But that being said, what's here in pinball format looks really cool and it looks really fun and I can't wait to play one. I think that's like a healthy way to process what we've seen on this game so far. It's not the artistic direction I would have gone in. I would have liked it to have felt a lot more like a jungle and a city without so many bright colors. The palette, I think, is all off. People are saying King Kong looks more blue than he does gray, right? Isn't he a silverback gorilla? I think he's kind of all over the place. The toy looks gray and silver, but some of those Kong images in the game and on the cabinet look a lot more bluish. But who cares, right? We're grown men complaining about the hue color of King Kong pinball that costs $13,000 or $7,000. I know there's a lot of people that are going to miss the gong in the pro of the game. But man, for half the price, a Stern Pro is not a bad buy. You're going to get most of the game. And also, historically speaking, Stern Pros are the only things that hold value these days. Like it holds better value than the LE. Will this King Kong LE sell out? I think it will. I do. Will it hold value like Jaws? I don't think so. I really don't. I think this game is going to be really fun for people. I don't think it's going to be a bolt to your floor game for years though and I don't think it has the same personality as Godzilla does I don't think it has the same personality as Jaws and again it's because of the animated nature of the game remember Jurassic Park when it comes to the Keith Elwin games once they made more LEs of Jurassic Park and now there's a thousand LEs out there, it's not nearly as in demand as Godzilla. But if Jurassic Park had the movie clips and had the moments that we remember and love on that screen, I think Jurassic Park would be much more of a bolted to your floor game. So it just begs the question, like, how many more times is Stern going to go down this road? Now, look, the animations, though, when you think about it, I think it's unfair to say these animations aren't good. It's like everyone forgot where we came from. We used to get DMDs in games for like two decades and now we've got this on a screen and you're gonna complain? I mean the animations are pretty damn good for a pinball machine. I don't know what you're expecting. You're not gonna get like PlayStation 5 graphics in a pinball machine and I know everybody would prefer some movie clips from the King Kong films but as far as animations go these are pretty damn good. Show me another company's animations that are this damn good with no other source material. I think they're pretty damn good. But after watching the stream for 35 minutes and seeing the animations over and over again, I do feel like it lacked a little excitement. And by that, I mean, I think that just has to do with how I'm connecting with the material. It's also because I'm not playing the game. I'm watching a stream of the game. So watching this game being streamed, the gameplay looked great. The shots looked amazing. There's a lot of fun stuff in the code. Still feels like a lot of clips crashing over each other, so I'm not sure how it's going to be, but I think they're going to do a lot of fun stuff with this game software-wise, and I think there's a lot on that play field to like. For those of you saying, like, why is King Kong hitting a subway car? He's famous for doing that, for wrecking a city's public transportation. So I don't have a problem with that at all. Would I have liked King Kong to have swatted the balls with his hands? I think that was the initial plan with the mechanism. Yes, at least he hit something and is more interactive with the game itself. But man, this game should have had an Empire State Building. The fact that there's no Empire State Building is still a huge miss in this game. I don't care if it's on the screen. It should have been a mechanical thing in the game. So that's it. The good news is, is the media are there today and Stern's making these games I mean there like an ocean of them being made right now So this game going to make it out into the world in just a few weeks and we all going to get a chance to play it very soon. That is awesome. That's how you do it. Then I went and watched gameplay of Barrels of Fun's new game, Dune Pinball. And I feel bad because I don't even want to evaluate this game right now because there's really not a lot of code in the game right now. On some of the gameplay streams, there's almost like no code in the game. The screen itself is just like the desert. There's like no movie clips. Nothing is happening up there. And it's pretty barren like the desert. And then there's other clips I saw where there are movie clips, but it says pending licensor approval. So wait a minute. It just feels like this game's not ready. It's not ready to show us yet. I mean, how can you release a game when your movie clips have to have a watermark on them that it's not ready for licensor approval? So when is that going to be? And I just want to be able to evaluate Dune Pinball when it's got the fun stuff in it. And software is so necessary in creating the environment of a game. I really like the sandworm mechanism. I think it's super awesome. It's one of the coolest toys I've seen in pinball in a long time. But in watching more of the gameplay and going back and forth between Dune and King Kong, it's clear that Kong has a lot more to shoot at, has a lot more going on in the game. Now, Kong does not have a mech that's as impressive as that Sandworm. And boy, are these games the opposite of the spectrum when it comes to artwork and colors and brightness, right? One game is brown and sand colored, and the other game has got every color in the rainbow. If you put these two games next to each other, you would have the widest spectrum of color palettes ever in the history of pinball. And the only thing that would make it more so if you had a black and white version of Godzilla next to King Kong. The other thing in the Dune stream, and I'm trying to get a sense of what it's like when you're playing it, the expression lighting system in that game. For some reason, it reflects onto the playfield and you can see all those little tiny lights from the system reflecting onto the game itself. I'm not sure from a player's perspective if John Youssi that, but it's really, really off-putting and distracting. So I'm wondering what it feels like when you stand over the game. And that's where my feelings are on Dune right now. I almost don't want to say too much until I see more of the game. It's a shame because you really only get one chance to make a first impression and it just doesn't feel like this game is ready yet. And again, it's because those assets are not in the game. And so you don't really know what you're getting yet. And I think Stern had a much better reveal of King Kong than Barrels did of Dune. And so I don't know why Barrels didn't just wait a few weeks and get more approval before they revealed the game. I think they need to keep the line going and they need to get orders in because they'll lose money every week. The line is not making stuff because the line's not making labyrinth right now. We know those orders have to be dried up. And then we also got news the other day that Predator might not even come to America because Pinball Brothers is dealing with tariff issues and they've been doing interviews that have basically been saying that we might need to halt production of our product because of tariffs. And so what does that mean for Predator, which was supposed to come out in two weeks, and now it's up in the air on whether or not this game will even be revealed or even be on the line anytime soon. So that's a bummer because out of all the themes, it really was Predator that was the one that I was most excited for just on a theme level out of all four of these themes. And so now it's interesting when we're going to see Harry Potter. They turned on their marketing for the game. They definitely wanted Harry Potter to be on everyone's mind before we saw King Kong. Now that we've seen King Kong, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think Jersey Jack is still in a rush to get his Harry Potter? Do you think they're ultra confident now that they can easily beat King Kong so they can wait a little bit longer. I'm also hearing that there's licensing delays on Harry Potter as well. I'm not sure about that, but I think a lot of people, think about it, if you didn order a Kong LE and you didn order Dune yet you really gonna wait to see Harry Potter before you pull the trigger I mean that the smart move to make And even when you do see Harry Potter we know they're going to make this game for years. So it's a really good time, everybody, to welcome in all these new games. It's fun debating these games. It's fun critiquing these games. It is. You know, I see some people out there. It's like, you're not allowed to say negative stuff about pinball. Come on. This is what we love. We love giving our opinions. Most of us are not that talented. Most of us couldn't even glue together a stick figure, let alone assemble a pinball machine. So I want to say kudos to the teams over at Barrels of Fun, the team at Stern Pinball. What you guys do is not easy. What you men and women do is not easy at all. And I know it's frustrating. You work so hard on these games and then you turn on Pinside and you listen to Kaneda and you listen to the very community that you are trying to excite and you're getting met with so much anger, so much hostility. Everyone's got an opinion about how you could have made your product better and that's got to suck on some level because it's such a small hobby. It's such a niche little community, but in defense of us, the community, y'all did it to yourselves. The moment you ask us for $10,000 to $15,000 for games, we're going to have much stronger opinions now than if these games were like $6,000 or $7,000. And because a lot of us are just priced out of buying all these new in-box games, an opinion doesn't cost anything. And so that's why you're getting so many opinions about these games. And look, stuff like artwork, it's subjective Gameplay is subjective. Fun is subjective. The only thing that's not subjective is how well a game sells. Numbers don't lie. And I think King Kong is going to do well for Stern. I don't think it's going to do extraordinarily well for Stern. I don't. I really don't. I don't think it's going to sell like Godzilla did. Remember, Godzilla came out right at the beginning of COVID and it was much cheaper. So I don't think we're going to see that here. I also don't think Kong is as good of a game as Godzilla. I just don't. It might be more fun to shoot, but that animated nature of the game, I think it's going to make more people feel a little bit dissatisfied. It feels a little bit more juvenile and comic book-like. It's still going to be fun, but I'm just not sure it's going to sell like Godzilla. I don't know how well Jaws sold. I think it sold pretty well. So we shall see. I wish these companies were more transparent about how many games they sold when every new game comes out. It would be nice at the end of the year to get like an earnings report from these companies. It's a lot easier with the boutiques because you know now Spooky sold 888 Evil Deads. Do I think they're going to sell a thousand Dune machines? Not yet. Not yet. Now look, if Barrels of Fun announced Goonies, they would have sold a thousand in one day, even with incomplete software. So it just goes to show you when you don't nail the theme, it's going to be a slow burn to get 1000 people to spend 11.6 plus on a Dune machine. So I hope they get that software in sooner than later so we can look at this machine with more of their vision for it. Everybody, my voice is shot. Have a good Friday tomorrow. It is good Friday tomorrow. Why don't we all do this? Why don't we on Good Friday just turn off Pinside, turn off the internet, stop worrying about these pinball games. It's all going to be all right. None of this matters that much. It's not worth getting that bent out of shape over. I think both of these games brought some really interesting things into the pinball world. Neither one of them is a theme I would have selected. And both of them have an artistic approach that is very polarizing. And ultimately, the customers will decide and the market will decide if enough is in these games to warrant the prices. Everybody, have a great day. We'll talk to you soon. I heard you say.