Pinball industry has become victimized by what the world of entertainment has done. You know, you got something like Ant-Man that was going to be a one-off. It's done really well. Now, oh, we're doing a trilogy. Guardians of the Galaxy was going to be a one-off that was just secondary tertiary characters that's just a throwaway we're going to let Chris Crack go back to do Jurassic and other things but oh my god look at this, like Roots of Sensation oh my god, we're now going to do multiple movies and I think when things are structured up front and I'm thinking specifically of Lord of the Rings which I worked on for slots, fantastic project to work on, I think that you know there was an understanding that the magnitude of what Toklian has created is going to necessitate carving it out this way. And then, oh, by the way, here's this companion that maybe we'll consider doing, if these others are successful, the hobbits. So, okay. I think when you have something like that, that's fine. When we have all the spin-offs and everything else where you're trying to cannibalize, bastardize the Mandalorian, and now rogue this, and this character over here, there's going to be Boba Fett, and there's going to, I mean, we're going to expand this universe. And I think that what has happened with Pinball is that we are looking at things that people thought of affectionately. We talked before about Guns N' Roses. You can now approach it in a way that's totally different. I didn't understand why Stern felt the need and John felt the need to do another Indiana Jones. I thought it was funny. I would dare say that anybody wanting to do Addams Family, unless you're doing it as a remake, why would you even bother to do anything like that? It's kind of like, God, will they ever remake Forrest Gump? Oh, God, it would be such a great story. Can we follow Bubba Shrimp? The golden thong. The pinball. Yeah. So, I guess my sense is I wish, I understand there's a fertile ground to go back to doing things that have familiarity. I can understand and appreciate if any of the companies back when might have shorted production and that there was a demand and a desire. Let's face it, Doug has done very nicely with remakes. Right. I mean, he's proven that, guess what? I don't need an LCD in an LCD world. I can go back and do a 20-some-odd year-old game and be successful with it and maybe I can do others that I've identified and if there's a marketplace that is not necessarily totally satiated yet, I'm taking that up. Christopher mentioned before in terms of vault additions. You know what? We left some meat on the table. Let's go back in and let's do more of this. I think that's fantastic. Do I think that there are ways, Jurassic we talked about before, to do multiple iterations of that. Yeah, I mean, if it's a different take, and it is, it's a different designer who has this vision and this wonder of what he can create, then you go for it. And I'm not saying that that shouldn't happen, because I think there are some people who have their collections where they're going to line them all up next to each other, a la all three or four of their Harry Potter games are going to be on that one wall celebrating it. So I think that there's ways to do a mix and a match. I guess the only way that I would answer it truthfully is that there has to be a reason. There has to be something that is so apparent that was missing before, whether it's technology-based, whether it is different assets, whether there are things that were missed because over a period of time you come from a different perspective in regard to how you craft and articulate your storyline and objectives. That, yes, if you can justify it that way, then go for it. I don't think that's why makers are going back to the well for stuff like that. I think it's the same reason Hollywood is, which is we're going with something with a built-in safety net. It's proven, rather than take a chance, like look at the lesson, you know, Stern had with Stranger Things. Very hot property, didn't sell well, kind of tanked, actually. Whereas when you stick with something that's tried and true, I don't think Stern is like saying, well, you know, technology's changed, we can make such a better Star Wars game now. No, Star Wars is Star Wars, and you can't miss. Unfortunately, I think the problem with Star Wars was it was a Steve Ritchie game. And as much as I love Steve and what he does, he really caters to a particular kind of player. Whereas out on location, somebody walking up to Star Wars at like a Dave and Buster's or whatever, they're going to expect the Star Wars world under glass and they're going to look at that game and go, what is this? No, no, no. I totally agree with you on that. But I also think that, you know, if I go back to do another wrestling themed game, because there had been one before with a little mini play field and whatever else. And then I got back in and I do WrestleMania. Do I really need to do that? Despite the fact that I have a little screen. So I think, Christopher, to your point, yeah. I mean, you go the expedient route, which is, all right, there's a built-in awareness. So let's go for it. I think the other part to it, and I'll take exception on some levels in terms of Stranger Things, is the assumption that just because it is a hit show on Netflix that the primary audience happens to also be your demographic for pinball. Forgetting about the game layout and the design, the great anticipation, Brian Eddy is coming back. Oh, my God. And, you know, will it meet our expectations or surpass it? So he had a difficult hill to climb. Sure. But I think the real key is, and it's something that I pride myself on, is can I take a look at any particular IP, whatever it might be? And I do this a lot in terms of gaming. It may have all the right demos, but are those people playing slot machines? Are they going to casinos? Are they playing online? And I think for pinball, it's easy to say that something is a hit movie or a hit show. I would argue that sometimes you have to delve a little bit deeper and understand if it really is something that is going to codify a market with an urgency to collect, buy, or operate that particular thing. You kind of just touched on the answer to this question, but if you want to elaborate at all on this, the million-dollar question and kind of the tack in this topic of licensing would be, what makes the best pinball license? Do you have a set of criteria that you personally feel are needed to find the ideal pinball license? Yes. Okay. The first and most important is a design team that has a passion and enthusiasm and a burning desire to create a pinball based on that celebrity, that music group, that whatever. Somebody, I mean, I'll use the example, and I know we want to look forward, but I tend to look back referentially. I always think that you need to never forget the past because otherwise you're going to be, unfortunately, finding yourself repeating the past and sometimes not necessarily in a good way. We went out. It was John and Python and myself. We had Bugs Bunny's birthday bash. I think, again, that most people want to forget. Right. And Python had done some artwork with the Tasmanian devil and his wife. Oh, boy. And John was this huge, huge. I mean, we're talking about this manic Bugs Bunny fan. And we're presenting the artwork, the play field, what the back glass is going to look like. And the one point that came out was the Tasmanian devil's wife had on a polka dot dress, whatever the color was. Let's say it was green with orange polka dots. Oh, you can't do that. No. And John instantaneously and immediately. Back in 19, whatever, I'll use a date. 1957, episode six, she had that dress on. Nice. They called up. Creative people came up. where the headquarters for Warner Brothers came up, looked at the artwork, because obviously there was this disagreement, and it's like, oh, wow, yes, because they were getting ready to launch a brand-new Tasmanian Devil cartoon, and they were going to feature his wife a little bit more often, and guess what? That was her dress that she was going to be wearing. Wow, nice. So when you can go to the licensed store and know the commodity almost even better, that is an ingredient that I strive for, is that you know it. You know it. You're living it. you're breathing it, you're eating it. So that becomes number one critical. The other part, and we've kind of touched upon this before, is can you get everything that you need? If you can't and you're going to shortchange it or you're going to try to find a workaround because, oh, my God, I can get that, but I can't get all of it. I kind of joke from time to time, so when I'm buying the car, does it come with a steering wheel? Is that an option? What do I get? And what I don't want to have is creative people that wind up sacrificing their integrity, their vision. So when you ask, you know, what makes a good game, I think Christopher also pointed it out. I'm not taking pot shots at speed because I think his work is great, and I have a couple of his games in my house, and he's spectacular. He wasn't the right designer for something that Christopher pointed out was going to be a more general public. You needed somebody that wasn't going to be, I'll call it, flipper-dependent in terms of the design. You need somebody that could bat a ball around and have some fun. You need a John Boer. Well, I mean, it's the same scenario. I mean, potentially, John, or you can go back and take a look at any of the designers out there who have been seen as a more generous kind of approach to design, where it is the old saying of easy to learn, difficult to master. And some people say it's boring. Oh, my God. It doesn't have depth. It's too easy. It's too this. It's too that. You needed something like that that would have been appealing and captivating for the Star Wars fan. And if you take a look at the success that Stern had and Data East before the Star Wars games, or even to a lesser extent of what we experienced in Episode I, which wasn't all that bad, but if you take a look really at what Data East had done, they approached it that way. Those games were really remarkable games and admittedly sold more than the more recent vintage one. So there has to be something to that in terms of the approach and style. So I think that that becomes probably the most critical element that I see, and it's why I tend to emphasize before I kind of go on and make my pitches as to what do you have in mind. Do you have like a drawing, a concept, something? Because unless I'm believing in it, I'm not going to be able to really do my best job on behalf of my client and the potential project. And if it's just going to be a brand slap, I have to live with those things. That's my reputation that's on the line. And people are hoping that I am presenting them an opportunity that's going to be really good as opposed to something that's not so good. And there have been occasions, in all honesty, and this is across the board on a variety of projects, where the licensors come back to me saying, oh, we should have done more for you. It was our fault. Interesting. Do you know how crippling that is for somebody to hear that? It wasn't your fault. Or in some cases, it actually was. And people pointed out that I wish you would have done more, better, or different. But there were times where we fell down. I mean, is it just a financial thing? Because you would think that a company that had a license that was popular would want to showcase that license and put out as much as they possibly could to make the product better so that their license shows well. Why restrict things so much that you're left with a watered-down version of a license that doesn't reflect on them well either? Because sometimes it's an opportunity just for business. It's not something that they're pursuing. Right. You're coming to them saying, hi, I want to give you money. Oh, really? Okay, sure. And if you're not asking the questions, which unfortunately over the years has been the case by various manufacturers, there's a particular instance now that I can speak to it because I was involved. Nobody ever asked me to get the rights to her. She was available. You mean you didn't want her in the game? Oh. She was a central character. Get away from her, you bitch! Son of a bitch. They said they could have done it? I believe that they could have because I got the license. Okay. And it would have cost them more? No! Pardon the interruption, but just in case you didn't hear that the first time. And it would have cost him more? No. Andrew, give me a shout. Here, this is all the stuff I can get you. You want Michael Bing? You want these characters? Sure, okay. And Sigourney? All right, let me know, and, you know, we'll take it. No. Went on their merry way. A little bit different than Barry and Yap calling me, and all the word being about, you know, the big Lebowski. Can't get this, can't get this, can't get this. We really want this. Oh, okay. Well, at least you've asked me. I'll get it for you. Done. when everybody said, no, it's not possible. And Christopher and I had shared a story before in terms of the original Batman, in terms of what I was able to get versus not get, and I decided not to do the license because for my purposes, I couldn't get the likeness rights that I needed. So I think that there are times where if you have the ability to influence the decision-making internally, either as an employee or as an outside consultant, to try to steer the best decisions, that's what I attempt to do. And there are other times where you kind of shake your head and it's like, wow, I can't believe it. And I'll share something off topic, at least in terms of the category. We were coming through with a breakthrough technology and an approach with slot machines with Top Gun. Could not get Tom Cruise. I said I didn't want to do it at all. Could not get Tom, don't want to do it. And it was our immersion. Sit down, kind of an arcade cabinet if you've ever seen anything, if you've ever gone to a casino. And the design team came back to me and said, here, this is how we're going to do it. and all we need are these five characters on top, and we're going to have these jets fly by because the numbers and the reels are going to shake. We don't need them. We don't want them. If anything, you as the player are Tom. Oh, wow. All right, let me go to the studio and tell them. And we did a project that was not only incredibly successful on its own, but it carved out a unique niche in terms of cabinet design where we followed up with Wizard of Oz that just took off. Right. So in that particular instance, they sold me on the fact that, yes, we could do this without Tom. That's cool. But now when I talk to people who say, you know, one of the great holy grails is Mission Impossible, knock yourself out if you can get Tom. But otherwise, what are you going to do? Go back to the old TV series? Does anybody really care about Peter Graves? No, but Get Smart would be a fun pinball. That would be. What's the thing about the shoe phone? With Don Adams and Barbara Patton? Or Steve Carell? No, no, no, no. Don Adams. The original, yeah. Thank you. You guys are able to keep up with me, and I haven't worked you too much. I guess I will take a break. Man, that was a lot of fun. Stump the Stash with the one and only Roger Sharp. Be sure to tune in for episode 24 for the conclusion of our interview, the next half of our contest, and a ton of random questions that got really, really interesting towards the end. So you're going to want to hear that. And also find out just how many bags of dog food we're going to be giving to the Military Canine Dog Shelter on behalf of Barlow's Pin Pets Shelter Drive for 2021. Also, thanks to all the great pinball superstars for submitting a question to Roger. We all had a ton of fun putting this together, and his peers really got into the spirit of the game. So thank you all for submitting your questions. Don't forget to check out silverballswag.com for our cool swag, and be on the lookout for the new Super Awesome Monthly Shirt Club, featuring a new limited edition shirt every month. And with that, thanks for listening and supporting the show. Spread the word, and we'll have a kick-ass lineup for 2021. Happy New Year, and good night, everybody. See you next time.