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Ep 122: The Jack is Back! With Jack Guarnieri

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 5m·analyzed·Nov 10, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Jersey Jack CEO reveals Elton John genesis, Steve Ritchie hire, pricing rationale, and JJP's design ethos.

Summary

Jack Guarnieri, founder and CEO of Jersey Jack Pinball, discusses the Elton John pinball machine—its inspiration, licensing complexity, design philosophy, and the strategic hire of legendary designer Steve Ritchie. He addresses pricing criticism, explains cost drivers (licensing, assets, development), and defends Jersey Jack's premium positioning while reflecting on broader market dynamics, collector behavior, and the democratization of themes beyond traditional rock/metal IP.

Key Claims

  • Jack Guarnieri was inspired to create the Elton John pinball machine after attending an Elton John concert in January/February 2019, where he photographed glasses reflecting a keyboard and recognized market potential across demographics.

    high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, direct first-person account of concert inspiration and decision-making process

  • Steve Ritchie joined Jersey Jack Pinball on August 2nd (of 2023), following his departure from Stern approximately one week prior.

    high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, precise date and timeline of hire

  • The Elton John game contains 12-14 separate licenses beyond the main artist license, including music rights, concert footage, Tommy film licensing, and Gottlieb pinball machine imagery.

    high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, detailed licensing negotiation overview

  • Jersey Jack's early games (Wizard of Oz) sold for $6,500–$7,500, while more recent premium editions (Ruby Red 75th Anniversary) sold for $9,000–$9,500, reflecting cumulative cost increases driven by economy, asset development, and licensing.

    high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, historical pricing narrative

  • The Elton John game pricing was intentionally reduced compared to prior Jersey Jack releases as a strategic market decision.

    medium confidence · Josh Roop observation that Jack 'dropped the price a little bit'; Jack acknowledges but does not provide specific figures

  • Steve Richie initially reacted skeptically ('Really?') when offered the Elton John license, preferring high-power themes like cars or jets, but came to love the project.

    high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, recounting Ritchie's initial reaction and subsequent engagement

  • Jack has customers with sealed Collector's Edition Pirates of the Caribbean machines and new Emerald City Limited Edition Wizard of Oz games still in boxes, treating pinball as collectible/investment rather than operational machines.

    high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, anecdotal customer behavior observations

Notable Quotes

  • “You know, this could be a great pinball machine if it's done the right way... if I could get this license, I think we could make a great game, and I think we did.”

    Jack Guarnieri @ ~3:45 — Captures the moment of creative clarity at the Elton John concert that sparked the game concept

  • “I don't think you can have a vegan in the kitchen of a steakhouse making steaks. I don't think the steaks will come out right. So you have to have the people that are on the team doing something that they really love to do.”

    Jack Guarnieri @ ~18:20 — Reveals design philosophy: passion and alignment between designer and theme is essential to game quality

  • “I'd love to buy a Lamborghini for $20,000, but it's just not going to happen. There's a reason.”

    Jack Guarnieri @ ~35:15 — Defends premium pricing strategy using analogy; addresses recurring criticism of JJP's high costs

  • “Nobody builds a game like Jersey Jack Pinball. Nobody. You know, the level and the degree of detail, the effort, the energy, the time, the passion.”

    Jack Guarnieri @ ~37:45 — Unambiguous claim of manufacturing superiority and justification for premium positioning

  • “I think a lot of us got spoiled. You know, I think a lot of us – what happened when things were go, go, go, and there was not much supply and there was a lot of demand – people were buying two games instead of one game.”

    Jack Guarnieri @ ~28:30 — Reflects on speculative buyer behavior and secondary market inflation during supply shortage

  • “We're building a game that's not your grandfather's pinball machine. And it's just a different kind of game for today.”

    Jack Guarnieri @ ~46:20 — Articulates intentional design shift toward accessibility and multi-sensory appeal beyond traditional playfield-focused gameplay

  • “When I licensed Wizard of Oz, everybody in the universe told me it was a terrible theme. I'd never sell any. Nobody would want to buy it.”

    Jack Guarnieri — Historical context on market skepticism and risk-taking; establishes pattern of JJP challenging theme assumptions

Entities

Jack GuarnieripersonJersey Jack PinballcompanySteve RitchiepersonElton JohngameElton John (artist)personDavid Furnishperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Jack articulates that designer passion for theme is critical to game quality ('vegan in a steakhouse' metaphor); Steve Ritchie's initial skepticism about Elton John theme but eventual buy-in demonstrates this principle.

    high · Direct statement and narrative of Ritchie's arc from 'Really?' to 'he just loves it'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Elton John contains 12-14 stacked licenses including music rights, concert footage, Tommy film clips, and Gottlieb pinball imagery; licensing strategy includes full-length songs (not snippets) to prevent loop fatigue.

    high · Jack's detailed breakdown of licensing chain and conscious decision to secure full-length music rights

  • $

    market_signal: Jack acknowledges speculative buyer behavior during supply shortage (buying two machines, one to 'flip'); notes customers with sealed Collector's Edition Pirates and new Wizard of Oz games still in boxes.

    high · 'I have customers that still have CE Pirates of the Caribbean in a box... brand new Emerald City Limited Edition games in a box.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack renamed base tier from Limited Edition to Platinum Edition for Elton John, positioning Platinum as mid-tier with enhanced features (topper, sparkle cabs, extras). Tie-in to music industry symbolism (platinum records).

    high · Jack's explanation: 'Platinum is also related to music... Platinum Edition... because you have a topper, you have the rad cabs with the sparkle'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Jersey Jack pivoted from direct-print cabinets (scratched/damaged easily) to replaceable 'rad cabs' with sparkle finish, overlay-installable over standard decals.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.197

0:00
thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast we're on episode 122 i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott it is a wonderful day in pinball there's been new games released things are looking epic as always elton john is wowing that topper flashing onto the ceiling is amazing. The game plays great. It's a, it's a Richie. It's fast. It's flowy. Who are you, who are you going to buy it from? If you get one? Well, I'd reach out to Zach and Nicole many of flipping out pinball. They have all sorts of your pinball needs, including some, some deals right now. So if you're looking to pick up something for Christmas, now's the time to reach out. Definitely. Scott, we got someone special with us today. We do. We actually have someone who's been in the pinball industry for a long time. And then he decided, you know what? I'm just going to – pinball is easy apparently. So I'm just going to build my own pinball company. So we have the guy who resurrected pinball from the doldrums of the 2000s. We have Jersey Jack Pinball with us, Jack Guarneri. How are you doing, Jack? Hey, guys. Good. Hey, Josh and Scott. Really good to be with you guys. Definitely. It's great to see you again. It was different to see you now because you don't have your Elton John costume on from when you guys revealed at Expo. I don't get it. It's in the closet in the other room. You know what?
1:26
Josh's Elton John's costume is also in his closet for some reason. But it's not the Dodgers one. It's more the flamboyant with the peacock feathers. With the feathers, yeah. Feathers, yeah. That one's pretty cool too. I was actually going to buy a pair of those feathers and give them to Steve Ritchie to wear at Expo. I would have loved to see him do that. I don't know. I must have gotten distracted because I had it in my basket on Amazon and I never checked out, you know. But I think Steve would have put them on. You know, he always wears black. Would have had these white feathers on. It would have been pretty cool. Maybe I'll do that to him at another show that we do together. Yeah, you'll have to ask Steve about the time he came out to Rocky Mountain Pinball Show and he forgot his deodorant. so we actually took him on a deodorant sharpie and booze run what a bottle of rum a bottle of uh yeah a stick of deodorant and then some sharpies to sign things oh that's funny yeah something else so jack i gotta know where did elton john come from like what made you guys decide at jersey jack pinball to do elton john well we wanted to do another the music game and um we didn't really have a lot of different things in mind uh we bounced around a few different artists and i looked into music for different artists and cost of things and i was at a concert uh an alan john concert with my wife in like january february 2019 before covid and listening to elton john you know i've been to a bunch of his concerts But listening to him just brought me into this zone. And I saw on the screen a video of him. And he had these glasses on, like he always has, different glasses. And the reflection of the keyboard was in the glasses. And I took pictures of it. And it was just such like, I just sat there and I said, you know, this could be a great pinball machine if it's done the right way. I'm a big fan of Captain Fantastic from 1976. I remember opening a box with a brand new one I remember what that game did and I said here's somebody that's had a career all these years so many young people were in the audience there was everybody in the audience, younger people, older people from all walks of life were Elton John fans so I said if I could get this license I think we could make a great game and I think we did I really do, I think Steve and the team really nailed it.

David Furnish (Elton John's husband) provided positive feedback on the game promo video, stating 'You guys really nailed it. You got Elton's DNA.'

high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, email feedback paraphrase from Furnish

  • Guns N' Roses is Jersey Jack's best-selling game to date and features the most immersive concert-simulation experience in the company's catalog.

    high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, sales and design philosophy statement

  • Jersey Jack negotiated full-length, worldwide music licensing for all 16 songs in Elton John, rather than 15–30 second clips, to prevent loop fatigue during gameplay.

    high confidence · Jack Guarnieri, licensing strategy explanation

    • @ ~9:50

  • “I don't want somebody telling me what I'm supposed to buy or what I'm supposed to eat or what movie I'm supposed to see... If I want to buy a pinball machine, I'm going to buy a pinball machine.”

    Jack Guarnieri @ ~32:00 — Philosophical defense of consumer autonomy and luxury spending; frames pinball collecting as personal choice, not investment

    • Josh Roop
    person
    Scott Larsonperson
    Zach Sharpeperson
    Nicole Mandyperson
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Emerald City Limited Editiongame
    Godfathergame
    Toy Storygame
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Black Knightgame
    Captain Fantasticgame
    Slashperson
    Franchiperson
    John Yossiperson
    Chrisperson
    Pete Townshendperson
    Tommygame

    high · Jack's explanation of lessons learned from Emerald City direct-print issues and rad cab advantages

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie joined Jersey Jack Pinball August 2nd (2023), approximately one week after departing Stern after 16 years. Hire predated Elton John license assignment.

    high · 'With him coming in on August 2nd of a couple of years ago... it really was not about what he was going to make'

  • ?

    community_signal: Jack deliberately pursued non-traditional rock/metal IP (Wizard of Oz, now Elton John) to appeal to women and younger players. Notes anecdotal evidence: wife's friends preferentially play Wizard of Oz over other games.

    high · 'I chose that because I wanted to appeal to young people and to women especially... every girl in the bar is going to be playing it'

  • ?

    product_concern: Jack addresses recurring industry/customer criticism that Jersey Jack games price 40-50% higher than competitors. Responds with cost-driver analysis (licensing, development, assets) and Lamborghini analogy.

    high · Extensive pricing justification; acknowledgment of '20, 25-year customers' who initially rejected Elton John based on JJP brand pricing

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Long-standing JJP customers initially skeptical of Elton John theme ('if it's Elton John, my money is safe') reversed position after playing at Expo, with one claiming 'If this game was My Little Pony, I would buy it.'

    high · Jack's account of customer conversations pre- and post-Expo; recognition that game quality overcame theme bias

  • ?

    product_launch: Jack projects strong sales momentum for Elton John as games begin shipping to early customers in 'next few weeks' (from podcast date); references 'just beginning' and sustained momentum.

    medium · 'when the games get out there in the next few weeks that we're building, the momentum will keep going on this game. It's just beginning.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Jack references resource constraints: Toy Story production consumed significant bandwidth while Elton John was in development, lengthening Ritchie's typical 18-month timeline.

    high · 'We had a lot of assets dedicated to Toy Story to finish that up... there's a limit to what you have in ability and bandwidth of people'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Josh/Scott referenced picking up rumor 'beforehand that [Ritchie] was jumping ship' and were surprised it proved true; characterized as major shocker.

    high · Josh's statement: 'we actually picked up a rumor beforehand that he was jumping ship, and I'm like, wow, that would be a shocker. But it ended up being true.'

    • 4:14
    I think he did as well. It plays really well, and the game, I feel like, encapsulates Elton John. It shows off the side of him.
    4:24
    Well, we got an email from David Furnish, his husband, when they finally saw the cut of the promo video, and he said, you guys really nailed it. You got Elton's DNA. You really know what you did, And we really appreciate what you did. And I can't wait till they get their games because they're going to really go crazy because they were they were part of it all along the way. All the approvals, advice on using different images, different pictures, different colors. They were part of it. And to have him do custom speech for me to stand there next to the game, as long as I'm in the industry. and have a game in my basement and hear Elton John do speech calls on a game that says Jersey Jack. It was just so realistic for me. It just blew me away while I was playing Pinball Wizard. At the same time, it was just – I could have never dreamed that.
    5:33
    Now, this is a philosophical change, I would say. Most of the time when you think of rock and pinball, you're usually thinking of the things that you see at like a stadium or like a football game or something where it has lots of guitar, lots of loud, that type of stuff, which basically Guns N' Roses, right? Right. So were you concerned at all that Elton John, he has an amazing catalog. However, at least half of his songs are ballads. And when I look at all the songs that you guys selected to put on, I would say half of them are high tempo and half of them are more your typical ballads. Were you concerned that taking a risk on that?
    6:20
    You know, getting up in the morning, getting out of bed is a risk. Certainly starting Jersey Jack Pinball was a risk. So I think I'm at this point kind of risk averse. I don't really pay attention to a lot of the risks. When I licensed Wizard of Oz, everybody in the universe told me it was a terrible theme. I'd never sell any. Nobody would want to buy it. It's not going to make a good game. So, you know, I think the team of people that we have, they could take a white piece of paper and make a great game out of it. You know, we've all played really great games. that have terrible themes, and we've played really terrible games that have great themes. And it's hard to put both of them together. You know, I had people that on the rumor of Elton John, let's go back a couple of months ago, I've had people that were, you know, 20, 25-year customers of mine and friends of mine, basically, excuse me, text me and say, you know, if it's Elton John, my money is safe. I don't have to buy the game. It's not a theme I want. I like Elton John, but I can't see it. Those people were at Expo, and I stood next to them, and they bought the game. And they said, you know what? If this game was My Little Pony, I would buy it. This is just an amazing game. Yeah. Just an amazing game, and it is. It blew everybody away. And when the games get out there in the next few weeks that we're building,
    7:49
    the momentum will keep going on this game. It's just beginning. So one thing I'm looking at is you guys made a conscious decision to change the base tier from the limited edition to and call it the platinum edition. Right. And I don't really see much of like a number to it. Is that just a conscious decision going forward? Like what made you decide to go with platinum versus the LE name? And are these just kind of open ended on the number? Well, you know, everything's limited, right? I used to say everything's limited except aggravation. So I think that's probably still true, although we get very limited amount of aggravation, thankfully, these days.
    8:29
    With the platinum, you know, we put more into it. So I didn't feel that the limited LE moniker belonged on the game. Platinum is also related to music. and when the colors we picked were a platinum type of color for the body armor, it made sense to call it a platinum edition, you know, because you have a topper, you have the radcals with the sparkle and some added extras in the game to sweeten it up a little bit. And the art package, you know, we had three artists do the two games. So Franchi did the PE and Yossi and JP did the CE.
    9:16
    And I tell you, I still can't decide today which one I like better. I like both of them. It's a difficult choice which odd package I like better, which is a good problem to have. Yes. Yeah, I definitely – I actually – I still have my Wizard of Oz 75, and I wish that I had the rad decals to put on them because I love the look of the rad decals. And so I am – I'm jealous that the new ones come with those because it is visually very – they stand out. Yeah, I mean, it's stunning. I mean, when I did the direct print cabinets on the Emerald City Limited Edition games, they were great until you walked up to it and you leaned over into the game with like a belt buckle and you scratched up the game and you couldn't fix it at all. And I kind of decided that, you know, we'll make these Radcals, which would kind of mirror or emulate what we did on the direct print cabinets. cabinets they would be easy to replace if they got damaged and that kind of thing they'd be easy to install you could put them on right over regular decals and things like that so it's really a great item we love them well let me know if you have a spare copy of a wizard of 75 and i'll buy them from you okay i'll look into that i was gonna say this this artwork is amazing to it very much encapsulates what Elton John is. What made you decide to go with three artists? Because wasn't Franchi the only one on Godfather?
    10:54
    Yeah, he was. You know, I like to change things up. Having more people involved, some people would say it's more confusing, but I think it organizes people better. And when you have people competing against each other, whether it's subliminal or intentional, they work better.
    11:17
    They put in a better product. I think John Yossi is just a consummate professional all the years, all the games and all the things that he's done. And Chris is just Chris just eats things up. I mean, he just loves to work. He loves to create. He loves to have – he has a certain flair, a different style than John and JP. And that's what I wanted. I didn't want the two games to look like each other. I wanted them to look different, and that's what we got.
    11:50
    Obviously, there's going to be a question about Richie coming over, and it was pretty much he was gone from Stern like a week later he was with you guys. and we actually picked up a rumor beforehand that he was he was jumping ship and i'm like i wow that that would be a shocker um but it ended up being true so the so when was this kind of a pitch to bring steve over to say hey we have this license we want you to work on it or or what did he did he come over and you said okay here's what we have well what can we match you up with so um You know, Steve and I have been friends for many years.
    12:33
    We talked about him coming to work at Jersey Jack Pinball from the days before I started the company. And we just couldn't – we were on the same channel, but we weren't on the same frequency. The fine-tuning wasn't adjusted.
    12:48
    And things just didn't line up. So with him coming in on August 2nd of, you know, a couple of years ago, it really was not about what he was going to make other than he was going to make a great game. I don't think it mattered to him at the time what the license was, what it was going to be. He wanted to come to an environment which was nurturing, where a lot of people cooperate with each other and communicate with each other. Where when I told him, Steve, you can do what you want to do and nobody's going to bother you. Nobody's going to be ripping stuff out of your game. Nobody's going to tell you that you got to finish the game next week. I don't really care if this is done or that's done or the other thing is done.
    13:33
    And we stay true to that, to that form. You know, he usually makes a game in about 18 months. Took him a little bit longer. We had a lot of assets dedicated to Toy Story to finish that up. And, you know, while we have a lot of people in the company, you know, there's a limit to what you have in ability and bandwidth of people. You know, even Apple is limited to what they can do. You know, every company is for how many things you're doing. So, you know, when we handed Steve Elton John at first, you know, he's looking for some, you know, high power car or jet fighter or some kind of rocket ship or some kind of wacky title like that. And I didn't have that for him. Next up was Elton John. And, you know, he said, really? And we said, yeah. And he says, OK, I'll get into it. And he did. But I think he liked it a lot at the beginning. And at the end of the whole thing where we are now, I think he just loves it. You know, I've said this many times before, too. I don't think you can have a vegan in the kitchen of a steakhouse making steaks. I don't think the steaks will come out right. So you have to have the people that are on the team doing something that they really love to do. and it comes out a lot better, just like Elton John came out. Well, and speaking of Richie, you know, this game shoots so much faster and the flippers just feel very snappy. Was that something he brought to the table as well? Because, like I said, the flippers do feel a lot more, they're a lot stronger than the previous iterations of your games. He did, and in fairness to earlier games, all you need to do is go in and punch up the flippers, go to a high setting, and they are a lot snappier. Um, some people, you know, some people like really, uh, strong flippers. Some people like medium. Nobody wants weak flippers, right? Uh, we do have the option of backwards or weak flippers on Wizard of Oz and some of the modes, which is kind of funny or reverse flippers. But Steve, um, Steve makes fast games. Let's face it. He's the king of flow and he's, um, he's not the king of pinball for nothing. He made a lot, a lot of really great games. He made a lot of great games that on location when I was an operator, when I was operating Black Knight, when I was operating Flash, when I was operating all those games, Tomcat, you know, Star Trek Next Generation. So many of his games, they just really play really nice. You not hitting rubber where you not scoring anything It not a clunk fest It not like chopping wood It just great And there so many things that Elton John does Every time I would play it it just surprises me by all the shots I can make especially with the upper right flipper. I can't believe it.
    16:38
    So with the flippers at the show, is that like turned up as high as they could go or is that just kind of the new standard? No, that's factory setting. Perfect. Okay. You could go higher than that.
    16:51
    You know, it's funny. There's a little warning that comes up when we have the audio equalizer or you change coil strength. We put a little warning there that says be careful because maybe you can blow something out or, you know, break something or whatever. I don't remember the warning because I don't pay attention to warnings. I just go right over it. And I said, I don't really care.
    17:14
    And, you know, people just adjust them and they're happy. with all the different adjustments we have in the game. When you deal with a license, a lot of times you're dictated by what is available and what they're willing to offer. You have 16 songs in this, which is a lot.
    17:33
    How did you guys select which songs you wanted to put in? First go around, I asked my wife what songs should go in the game. because she's kind of an Elton John super fan, and she knows pinball. And we didn't pick some of the slow ballads that everybody loved. But she did pick a song like Leave On, which I probably wouldn't have put in there, but she explained why it needed to be in there, and I agreed with it. And then we went to Elton John's people, and they had suggestions, and all their suggestions matched everything we had. so kind of amazing right off the bat that they felt that we had the right mix of songs and our design team uh felt we had the right mix of songs and you know getting pinball wizard was really important to me you can't have a pinball machine with elton john without pinball wizard we had to get permission from pete townsend to do to have that in the game so that was pretty cool it sounds like the Elton John's team was very cooperative with working on it is that fair to say um it's probably an understatement they were they were spectacular they really were um once we you know in the beginning you really don't need them because Steve's drawn lines in circles and you're fleshing out mechanisms and you're doing stuff like that but after you get into it for about five, six months, then you need to have weekly meetings with their people and you're showing them creative. You're showing them ideas for artwork, ideas for the play field, ideas for the rules, ideals for graphics, motion graphics, ideas. You know, we're asking them, can we get concert footage? Can we get the cartoons that play in the background? Can we get, But, you know, me, I'm just – I'm kind of relentless in a way when I'm looking for assets for games because I just feel the more I give the team, the better game they're going to make. And I think we've proven that a number of times. So I want to get the team more stuff than they even need. I want to get them things they didn't even know existed which we did like with the cartoons which were never used in a commercial product other than to run behind the screen when Elton John's singing at a concert we licensed the footage from the movie Tommy where Elton John is singing Pinball Wizard and we had to license things that were in the background we even licensed the Gottlieb pinball machines that are shown in the clip so it's license on top of license on top of license is probably about it's probably about 12 or 14 licenses in this game that i negotiated and and secured so um you know our songs or music in the game it's always full full use it's worldwide full use full length it's not 15 or 30 seconds because if i'm playing a song while i'm playing the game and it loops around. I want to just bang my head against the wall. I don't want to hear it anymore. So I want to hear the full length of the song. So that's really important when we do licenses too.
    20:47
    So is Elton John a pinball fan? Because he's been in The Who's Tommy and stuff like that. I just was curious to with all this history and background in pinball, I didn't know if he has games himself. From what I understand He has games. I would love to inspect them personally and find out, but I don't know if I will get that opportunity.
    21:16
    I know back in the day, he actually bought a whole bunch of games when Captain Fantastic came out. He gave one to his mom, and he gave a bunch of them to friends of his.
    21:29
    Certainly, he's aware of the game. Obviously, he's aware of what the game is. he did the speech calls we wrote a bunch of speech calls for him he did all of them and like I said he's shared a lot of our videos and all our links on his Instagram and social media Facebook whatever he has on social media which have been great and I just would love to be a fly on the wall when they get the pinball machines and see the reaction because I think they're going to flip. Maybe you can set him up. Yeah, maybe you can go over there and set him up for him. Yeah, we'll see. Probably when I go, he'll be on vacation somewhere in a warm tropical climate.
    22:19
    So this game, you actually dropped the price a little bit. And I would say this is kind of the challenge that I would say with a lot of Jersey Jack games is that they tend to be higher priced than the other games.
    22:37
    Why is that? And what can someone who's buying it and paying the extra money, what can they expect from that?
    22:46
    Well, you know, this is a lot to unpack, so I'll try to unpack it a little bit at a time. And I'll go to the videotape, as it were. I'll go to history. So at pinballsales.com, when I was selling games 20 years ago, I was selling games for like $35.95.
    23:07
    And they were a lot of money. And people said, how come they're almost $4,000? You know, I could buy a pinball machine for $2,000 and plays and I could have fun. And I would sell used games. And I would say, yeah, you could. You know, we were selling Twilight Zones for eighteen hundred bucks at the time, you know, so go figure.
    23:30
    You know, fast forward a little bit. We started the company in eleven, 2011. Wizard of Oz, you know, early buyers were paying sixty five hundred dollars. Then it went up to seven. Then it went up to seventy five hundred. Fast forward a little bit more. when you bought your ruby red 75th anniversary game they were probably 9 000 or 9 500 that's right people wanted to kill me because how dare i have a game that's 9 000 or 9 500 you just bought a similar game a few years before for as little as 6 500 so how could it be up three thousand dollars and you know the answer is everything goes up you know and the problem is not much comes down It's supply and demand, true, but it's also the economy, and it's also the cost of carrying the product and developing the product. So, you know, I would get questions at pinball shows, let's say, I don't know, let's say five, six, seven years ago, and they would say, how come you can't build a game for $6,000?
    24:42
    And my answer would be kind of idiotic. I would say, well, what you're really asking me is you want my game that's $9,000 to be sold at $6,000. I said, I'd love to buy a Lamborghini for $20,000, but it's just not going to happen. There's a reason.
    24:59
    We have experienced customers. Not experienced. They are experienced, too, but experienced customers. They're buying our games for an experience. and it costs a lot more money to develop what we're doing than if we developed a different kind of product altogether. There would be less development time, less cost for assets, less cost for licensing and royalties, less people working on it. When I added that huge video screen to the first game, I knew that we were going to have to program like three games worth of stuff into one game. Because just the choreography of all the lights, all the coordination and choreography of all the sounds and speech calls, all the video animation, all the creation of the user interface and everything that went with that, all the movie clips that you have to pay for, all the rights to actors, all of those things add up. and that's where it comes to. And today, unfortunately, we're where we are. Now, I think the good thing is that when I sold games to customers 20 years ago and I sold them a Fishtails for $2,500 or a Whitewater for $2,500, maybe Whitewater and Fishtails are not $10,000 games anymore like they were a year or two ago. Maybe they're $7,000 games, $6,500 or $8,000 games. They're not $2,500 games, though. So the customer base that's existed in pinball, they have a big bank, and that bank is the value of their games that they bought years ago. When we bought games years ago, as an operator, I bought a game for $2,000, and I threw it away after a few years. I didn't expect to resell it to somebody and make money on it. It was a workhorse. That's what it was designed to be. It was designed to make money for me on location. And then when it didn't have a life, you traded it back to your distributor, and he tried to get rid of it to somebody, and that was the end of it. It wasn't a money-making proposition, and it wasn't an investment scheme. It wasn't like I'm going to buy pinball machines, and one day I'm going to retire off of them because I can sell them each for $20,000.
    27:21
    I think a lot of us got spoiled. You know, I think a lot of us, what happened when things were go, go, go, and there was not much supply and there was a lot of demand, people were buying two games instead of one game. You know, they were buying one to play and one to flip like a few months or a few years later. I mean, I have customers that still have CE Pirates of the Caribbean in a box. Really? I have customers that have brand new Emerald City Limited Edition games in a box. Yeah. You know, I've seen them. I've been next to the box.
    28:01
    You know, so it's not just that they tell me this. There are all kinds of customers and all kinds of people. I guess the roundabout professorial answer is, you know, that we buy these things because we love them. And we buy them because probably life is too short. And I don't want somebody telling me what I'm supposed to buy or what I'm supposed to eat or what movie I'm supposed to see or what restaurant I'm supposed to go to. So I'm adult enough to figure out what I want to do with my money because I work really hard. And if I want to buy a pinball machine, I'm going to buy a pinball machine. If I want to buy 10 pinball machines, I'm going to buy 10 pinball machines. I have friends that are car collectors. I got one friend. He's got 60 cars. He's also got about 70 pinball machines.
    28:47
    Wow. That's what he likes to do. You know, I collect writing instruments, okay, Montblanc pens. It's a weakness. You know, I have all different kinds of pens. Some of them are worth hundreds of dollars. Some of them are worth thousands of dollars. You know, but you know what? If I take the pen apart and I look inside the pen, my wife would say, you're writing with a $5 cartridge. Okay. But you know what? I like it. It's what I like. So don't tell me that I can't buy a pinball machine and what it's going to cost. You know, everything today costs more money. You go to the store and buy a little box of oatmeal, and it's $6. A couple of years ago, it was $2.
    29:32
    You know, what changed? I don't know. The world changed, I guess, unfortunately. We put a lot into our games. I mean, I don't want to be biased, but nobody builds a game like Jersey Jack pinball. Nobody.
    29:47
    You know, the level and the degree of detail, the effort, the energy, the time, the passion. And I know everybody else in the industry that makes pinball machines.
    29:58
    They're doing the best they can do and they have a lot of passion. And we're doing the best that we can do and we have a lot of passion. And we believe our product is what it is. And it commands that price because that's what we need to make to make the company be profitable and survive to make more games. I I've always been on record as saying that the most immersive pinball machine that I've ever played is Guns N' Roses because it feels like you are at the concert. Yeah. And that's different than playing, you know, that. OK, we have a lot of great band stuff, band games, and it feels like I'm playing a pinball machine with the band soundtrack. which is different when you go when you play a guns and roses machine it feels like you are interactive it's almost like a it's it's it's like one of those video games that you log in on and you're part of the experience right well again you know because i'm friends with slash all those years and he wanted to do the game he had to convince me to do the game uh we got all the assets that we needed and more uh we had a great team on the game it has amazing light shows it's bringing the concert home or wherever you have the game and i'm just very proud of that game it's all it was to date it's been our best-selling game so uh it's it's uh it's something that a lot of people love and again a lot of assets um make a better game you know the team a better shot to use uh more of the assets and implement them into gameplay with elton john i am i i love that you chose elton john because it seems to be breaking the barrier that we have artificially raised on saying we're not going to do certain artists i mean i've always said that there there's a lot of artists that would sell a crazy amount of games um you could do pink you could do taylor swift you could do uh you could do beyonce you could do all these artists that don't fit the 1980s rock band mode and it's it's interesting so we my wife had her friends over last uh last friday night okay right and so of the 10 games that i have downstairs in the basement do you know which one they all went to
    32:29
    wizard of oz wizard of oz yeah that's the first one they come down they're like i want to play that and so that that just shows that there is a market out there that is totally untapped from your stereotypical mark now i an elton john fan too but i also solidly in that demographic of knowing who all these eighties rock bands are that they making uh they making pins on but I would love to play Elton John and I would love to play in an area where I can hear the music and the sounds. Yeah. I mean, with Wizard of Oz, I've said it many times, you know, I chose that because I wanted to appeal to young people and to women especially. And, uh, I had operators in New York that said to me, guys aren't going to play that game if I put that in my bar. And I said, okay, well, let's put it in your bar, and I'm going to tell you every girl in the bar is going to be playing it and every guy is going to be right next to her. And that's exactly what happened. And the big screen, it wasn't there in the beginning for the player. It was there to attract people to the game like a big bug light and to inform the lookers-on about what's going on in the game so that when they play it, they get a little bit more information about what they're supposed to do. And I said in the beginning, older players like me, you've got to look at the ball all the time, and you're looking down and you can't look up. But unfortunately, young people can take their phone and they can drive and text at the same time. So if they walk over to the game for the first time and you see first-time players, they're taking in the whole game.
    34:15
    They're not just taking in the balls on the play field. They're looking at the screen. They're looking at the UI. They're looking at the monitor on the play field if there is one.
    34:25
    They're listening for audio cues. And there's some really great younger players. And I say, you know, we're building a game that's not your grandfather's pinball machine. and it's just it's just a different kind of game for today that's what that's what i felt needed to be built in 2011 if we're going to revive pinball and i would tell you that the licenses that we choose they expand the player base you know if you were doing the same type of license male testosterone kind of superhero game one after another one after another and there's nothing wrong with that you're not expanding the player base we've gotten we've gotten scores of leads from Elton John's website for people that are Elton John fans that didn't know anything about pinball that bought pinball machines so far and that's going to get that's going to get bigger and bigger it happened with Godfather so many people bought Godfather that were never pinball people you know in fact in this month's issue of replay magazine that I happen to have over here this is the November issue of replay the industry trade magazine you know we advertise on the magazine uh shameless plug we got the back cover um in this month's operator poll which is based on operators across the united states earnings the number one pinball machine on location is the godfather wow not bad yeah not bad you know so that's what we build we build a game that's great for a home customer we build a game that's going to work reliably on location and make money for operators. I will say I am solidly in that white middle-aged testosterone crowd. And when I got into pinball, you only had Wizard of Oz. And I pulled up Pinball Map to find out where Wizard of Oz was because I wanted to go play it. Right.
    36:15
    Well, you know, a lot of people in the beginning, they were curious about what it was. They heard about it and they didn't know. They knew immediately that they wouldn't like it. But what happened is when they played it, they loved it. So they were pleasantly surprised, and they became converts, and they bought the game. I will say I also – our friend Steve Govea made a witch mod, and I don't know if you've seen it. But I bought that – The one with the wishing well? Yeah. No, no, it's not the well. It's the smoke. And so it comes up, and it has all the lights on it. And, man, that is a showstopper. so it's fun to modify the game too which like like any pinball machine right if you if you want to buy something expensive and throw it in there it'll even increase the wow factor even more you know it's funny you talk about mods and things like that wizard of oz was the first game to have a topper on it in 15 years so you know think about the topper market today and what that's become Right. Yep. And, you know, Wizard of Oz, as much stuff as had on it, it encouraged a lot of mod people to make all kinds of mods for it. Right. So I think when you start something like we did, you're a catalyst to stir up the marketplace when the marketplace was like circling the drain and about to go down the drain. and I think a lot of people came into the market to buy games. There was a lot of excitement. There was a horse race between two companies. Now there's maybe 22 companies or more. So speaking of toppers, on this Elton John, you've got two big displays. Are these the same displays you guys had in Toy Story? I think they're similar. We only had a few left over from Toy Story. We had to order them, but I think when Steve wanted it, he looked at the biggest one we could put on there, and I think that was the biggest one we could put on there. And so he wasn't just happy with one. He wanted the full concert experience, and he wants it too.
    38:17
    Nothing wrong with that. Well, Steve's a man of extremes, let's say that. It looks really cool with the laser going up and shining on the ceiling too. Yeah, and we had custom laser images with Elton John's logo and stars and the Elton John logo from the bumper cap, the old style. Maybe I got one up here. The old style bumper cap. Oh, yeah.
    38:46
    And the Jersey Jack logo. And it's quite a light show on the top. It's beautiful. so are are the actual lasers i thought may i misunderstood but someone was saying there aren't actually lasers in the topper it's just the way that they project no it's it's a laser light show yeah okay yeah so they go through they go through i think a glass prism that rotates um with the different logos and different uh and different effects okay Okay. So has Jersey Jack changed? Has the atmosphere changed now that Pat Lawler is retired and Steve has now stepped in as kind of the senior figure of designers?
    39:30
    You know, I think I'm not there every day. I think anytime somebody is added or moves or changes around, things change. You know, I used to say years ago I had a fish tank and all the fish were happy and I would go to the pet shop and buy a new fish. and put it in the tank, and everybody would be fighting for territory and nipping fins and killing each other. So I think every company has a delicate ecosystem in a way, and when people come and go, they leave a big hole. Pat was certainly a great mentor, and he was a great source of knowledge and a great passionate person that loves pinball. so I think having Pat and bringing me bringing him back to pinball back in 2016 was a great thing uh 2000 sorry 2013 was a great thing um you know he was able to do three games for us which I think all three games were great you can't mistake a Pat Lola game when you walk up to it and play it uh but you know everybody like I said before about buying something you know life's too short Do you want to work until you fall over inside a pinball cabinet? Do you want to spend some time with your family and travel the world and have a good time with your life? So we all can't do everything forever. Everything changes.
    40:57
    So with the games, this is – it seems like you're accelerating your release schedule. and you have said on record that you want games one to two a year, which is roughly I'm saying about 18 months or so we're going to be getting so how many games do you have in development right now? We have three games in development right now Okay We have three designers and three games in development so Steve got off one horse and got on another horse already no rest for the weary right he's not that weary you know he's got a lot of energy i know you spent time with him he's got a lot of energy yeah he doesn't surprise a lot of people he just uh you know people people just see him as perpetual motion like his games so i've noticed over the last couple licenses we i mean godfather and elton john these are more 60s and 70s titles um are you going to be coming i mean obviously it hasn't been all those kind of titles i mean you've you've had wizard of oz you know to newer stuff 1939 title yeah yeah are you focusing on a certain genre is it just kind of wherever the wind takes you kind of thing well it's really not however the wind takes us we have certain things that we want to achieve licenses that we look for need to appeal to a wide range of people ages also demographically you know what plays well in australia might not play well in germany you know so we have to be uh conscious of different markets around the world for different products something that might be well known in the u.s might not be well known in europe or some other part of the world. So we'd be eliminating a lot of sales in different parts of the world with different licenses or different themes. So that's always something top of mind.
    43:01
    So I guess the one question everyone wants to know too, Joe Kamenkow, which is a big licensor for Stern and for other products outside of pinball, had announced that you guys have landed Harry Potter. I don't know, is there something you want to say to that? or I know you don't want to give away if you have a title or not, but it's kind of abrupt and we usually don't go after rumors. But with this being such a predominant figure of someone that is in pinball and licensing, didn't know if you wanted to clear the air on it. Well, I guess you have to ask Joe Kamenkow. I don't know him. I never had a conversation with him in my life.
    43:41
    Why he said that, I guess you have to ask him. If I didn't have the license, I wouldn't tell you I don't have it. If I did have it, I wouldn't tell you I did have it. So to be determined.
    43:56
    Yeah, I mean, it's no secret a lot of people want the license and have, you know, tried to get the license. And, you know, the rumor about what J.K. Rowling believes pinball is and all that stuff, I only know what you guys know about what's been out there in the public and what people have said. So I don't really have anything to add to it. But I thought when I heard it, I thought it was unusual. Again, I don't know the person.
    44:21
    I know who he is. But, you know, sometimes people have a reason for doing something, and sometimes people don't have a reason for doing something. I don't know. I don't read much into it, you know.
    44:35
    Cannot confirm nor deny. Neither confirm nor deny. Okay. That's what you guys in the press say. You can't confirm it or deny it. Well, that's – hey, you know what? We just talk about what people want to talk about. So what's your favorite song of the 16 tracks? And do songs correspond to different modes, such as hitting different shots?
    45:01
    Okay, I'm actually going to go first. I love that you put Crocodile Rock in here because that is my favorite Elton John song.
    45:10
    I think in this game, you know, I love all the Elton John songs, which I know is not the answer. But my favorite, when I played the game, you know, you can select whatever song you want. There's different light shows with every different song, which is just amazing to see what they've done. Bill Grupp and the whole team, they're just amazing what they've done with the game.
    45:38
    You know, I think my favorite song has to be Pinball Wizard. I know it's not an original Elton John song. I know it's the who, but I guess just when I play the game and I'm playing Pinball Wizard, it just takes me back to the day in 1976 that I opened up that Captain Fantastic game. It just does something for me. I love to hear every song. A lot of times I'll play my game on four players, and I'll just shoot the ball, and it'll pick whatever song at random kind of thing. and I'll just play through it. And I just love that the game surprised me all the time. You know, I walk up to it, I'm smiling. It makes you happy. The orbit shots, the just, you know, it's not difficult to follow the rules. I have to spell out and I have to collect wardrobe items. I have to try to lock three balls in the piano. I see Elton at the piano and his arms are moving up and down to the music and he's turning his head to look at me and back and forth. I'm like, holy crap, you know. Steve thought of that thing, and he made it real. You know, he made it real. Some people told him just make it a stationary thing. Don't knock yourself out. It don't have to work. But Steve being Steve, he just doesn't take no. He just keeps plowing right through everything until he gets what he wants. It's a really cool effect. you know you look at that and it's practical too i mean it's a three ball lock you know it's not just for the heck of it um i like i like bashing the drop targets i always love games of drop targets and you know um in the absence of a dedicated bash toy i'll take three drop targets and if i hit them the wrong way i'm going to drain right down the middle so i got to be careful about how I'm going to hit those drop targets to collect my albums.
    47:38
    I'm the same way with drop targets. If I have the option of buying a version of the game with stand-up targets or drop targets, I will pay more for the drop targets.
    47:47
    Yeah, I think it goes back to me playing Jack in the Box and those games that had, you know, like 10 drop targets along the top that you had to complete three times to, you know, roll over A, B, C, D kind of thing. You know, rules were a lot. I didn't even know when I started repairing games there were rules to games. I just figured, what the hell do I know? You're just shooting.
    48:09
    People ask me, what do I do? I said, shoot at the blinking lights. That's what you do. I mean, there were no speech calls in electromechanical pinball, unless you had somebody standing next to you telling you what to do. That was the only speech call you had.
    48:24
    So we kind of talked about this a little bit before the show, but how is it having everyone over in Chicago. You're still in Jersey. So is there any plans to move to Chicago or are you just happy where you're at? Well, just like we're doing now, pretty much every day I'm on Zoom calls and FaceTime calls with people at the factory. And I go there at least once a month. So I don't feel really any separation anxiety. I feel like I know what's going on there. So I don't have a plan to move to Chicago, even though it's a beautiful place to be.
    48:57
    You know, JP still lives in Holland. He's not moving to Chicago. We have other people that work for the company remotely around the world. Having a team and everybody in one building is a benefit because you know COVID separated a lot of people But now that everybody back together you have an idea you have a question you have a problem you just walk over to somebody and say hey, I got a minute, I need to talk to you. And, you know, you get your problem solved, you get your idea across, you can brainstorm about a lot of things. It's really good to have everybody pretty much in one place. So you have, there have been a lot of people who are interested in some older games. For example, Pirates of the Caribbean. A lot of people keep asking about that because the buzz for the game happened after the sales had already trickled off. And so you had moved on to different games because that's just the market. Is it conceivable to consider rerunning some of these old games? You have run some old games like Hobbit. You did the Black Arrow Edition. You did, you've done Wizard of Oz, you did the Yellow Brick Road. Any other titles that are on the table to consider running?
    50:18
    I guess that's why the Riviera is small and the windshield is big because we're going forward. And I think we really don't have time to go backwards and rerun things that we did in the past. Although, you know, you might make sales of those games. I don't doubt that you would, but we have so many things that we're working on and so much technology that we're adding to games now.
    50:44
    I said, I think I said at Expo that Wizard of Oz had 139 RGB LEDs and it won all kinds of awards. And we're pushing 1600 RGB LEDs in the CE Elton John. And just everybody's head in the room when I said that I could see a massive explosion of everybody's head. Like, really? Wow. So I don't know I'm not looking at vault games I'm not looking at rerunning things I'm really not looking at that stuff It's not on any short or long list It's nice to have people Say that they want you to do something Over again It's flattering and it's humbling in a way But it's not in the plan of the company To do that How has How have the I guess How is the company responding to sales of Elton John? Has the buzz been matched what you're searching for? I think so. You know, it's a market that's different than it was a year or two or three or four years ago.
    51:49
    We're pretty close to being sold out of the collector edition games, and we have good numbers on the platinum edition games. We're at a little bit of a disadvantage because this time I really wanted to get to Expo and show the game. So I took a page out of my old playbook where we used to go to a show and not have games in a box, where the last few releases we had a few hundred games in boxes. We showed the game, typically not at a show, and then immediately we shipped hundreds of games and they were on location, popping up in people's basements and everything like that. This time around, there's going to be a little lag of a few weeks, but there's still a lot of excitement with selling games every day. I have a lot of other distributors around the world setting up different open houses and parties. You know, I'll be in Connecticut at Automated Services on December 2nd. I'm sure I'll have an Elton John game there. I don't know if I'll be in my costume or not, but stay tuned. You know, and a lot of other distributors around the country are excited to get games. And I do think what's going to happen is what happened in front of me at Expo. So I had people that were non-buyers of Elton John, not interested until they played the game. And when they played the game, the pinball player in them came out and said, holy crap, this is a really great game. And it has really great music that I love and that I grew up with. And I have to buy this game.
    53:15
    I agree. I'm excited, too, that you guys have fresh blood that's never done a game before. and I'm excited to see your newest designer. He's going to be coming up, if my math runs right, unless you've got Eric up next, but your newest designer should be coming out shortly. How has it been working with him?
    53:36
    He's really humble. He's really learning a lot from Eric and from Steve especially. I think he's just like a sponge. I love Mark. He's just a great guy. He's got a great personality. He's got a great attitude. He's overcome a lot of obstacles and things.
    53:57
    You know, when I told you that when Steve came in the company, a lot of the assets of the company were directed on finishing Toy Story.
    54:06
    And Mark had to do, you know, a lot of work by himself. And thankfully, he's able to do a lot of that in the beginning of his game to get it going and get it down the road a little bit before the cavalry came and joined them as a team. and um i think his game is going to be great too i think it's going to surprise a lot of people well i'm excited to see especially where mark came from the the homebrew right you know he was a homebrew uh hatching yeah yeah and his metroid game is very impressive and so i can't wait to see what he's cooked up with with the with the environment that's there at jersey jack and be able to lean on those that have been in the industry for years and push out a product This is Mark Seiden we're talking about. Sorry, I forgot to announce his full name. Yeah. You know, there's really a welcoming, nurturing, positive energy in the building.
    55:02
    Everybody's working as a team. I think that's really important. There's not people working against each other. There's friendly competition, of course. There's people that have egos because that's not a bad thing completely. It's good to be proud of what you do and what you accomplish and what you want to accomplish. But it's also good to help each other and give each other advice. You know, if you see somebody who's going to go over the cliff, you should probably say something to them before they go over the cliff. Not laugh as they're going over the cliff bouncing around on rocks, you know. So it's good that the environment is that way. I'm very pleased with that. So you are over 10 years since deciding to jump into building your own company. So when you're looking back in the rearview mirror, what are the things that you're most proud of and also the things that you were unexpected challenges or maybe happy accidents?
    56:09
    Well, I think I'm most proud of the people in the company. the people that helped me start the company but I'm most grateful to the people that believed in me and the people in the company when they first gave us money and they put down money on a game that they never saw from a company that had no factory and had no track record at all and it was just I guess there was a lot of hope and a lot of wishes that I would come through and the team would come through and they'd make a great game And I knew one thing in the very beginning.
    56:44
    Think about it. I didn't have this deposit system where you don't get your money back. If you wanted your money back, you got your money back. And there was nobody that didn't get their money back that wanted it back. And I knew one thing. I knew if we made a game that wasn't good, when we make the first 100, the other 900 people at the end of the list would want their money back. So I knew it was important to make a really great product and make something that people wanted and that they would stay in for and they had a lot of patience. So I think, you know, the beginning, I'm most proud of the beginning because without the beginning, there's no continuation of the company. And I think one of the biggest surprises to me when I started the company, my mind was just I wanted to make great games. I didn't really think of the personal side of it. I didn't think of social media where, you know, I'm going to get accused of all kinds of things or people are going to put words in my mouth and people are going to say I said this or I said that or I did this or I did that.
    57:47
    So much of that was just not correct and personal attacks. And we had a lot of people in the beginning that were wishing us well, and we had a lot of people in the beginning wishing that we'd fallen to wishing well. so I'm happy that we made it through the difficult times a little acorn it popped out of the ground it grew into a little sapling and now it's a pretty nice tree that's growing pretty well so I'm very proud of it I'm also you know people say to me things like you guys said in the beginning you know that we revived pinball things like that you know I didn't really think of that whole thing I wasn't trying to be some kind of hero or somebody that was setting out to rebuild the whole industry.
    58:39
    But it's been nice. It's been humbling when people say that to me at shows and things like that. I just take it in stride, and I'm very humbled by it and appreciative of it. We're all trying to do our part to make pinball grow, and that's all I felt that I've been doing. Well, we had Larry DeMar on two episodes ago, and he even said the best thing that's happened to pinball in the last 10 years as Jersey Beck showing off Wizard of Oz. Larry's very kind, and he has said that to me in person, which is very, again, very humbling. You know, Larry's a real legend in the industry, not just the pinball industry, but the amusement game industry, you know, doing Robotron and all the games he did. And he's a really kind person. I appreciate hearing that.
    59:25
    All right. Now, your company has morphed. It used to be more of a – you started with kind of a one-man pyramid, but you've also brought more people in who are part of the company.
    59:38
    And how has that affected the dynamics and the ability for Jersey Jack to move forward? Because the more people you have, I would say the more production power you have and maybe the more input you have.
    59:54
    Well, we're always hiring. There's never a time when we're not hiring. We're always looking for really great people, people that are motivated, people that are talented, people that want to make great pinball machines. So you can't do these kind of things by yourself. It's always a team. I don't take credit for anything by myself. It doesn't happen without a lot of people involved. I give credit to God as well.
    60:21
    And it's just, you know, every day putting one foot in front of the other. There's always a problem that pops up. There's always something you have to anticipate. The unknown unknown is the worst kind of information that there possibly could be. And there's plenty of that in pinball. So having more people, you know, I might know a lot because I'm in the industry a long time and I have a lot of experience. But I can tell you, me coupled with Steve Ritchie, coupled with three or four or five other people are definitely a lot more brain trust than any one of us individually. So that's why cooperation and communication together are really important. That's all my questions, Scott. Do you have any more? No, I think it's great. Jack, we'd like to thank you so much for coming on.
    61:08
    Your games are great. We love having them, and I do love playing them. They are awesome collector pieces in anybody's basement.
    61:19
    So I'm wearing your hat today, but we're going to send you some of ours, so we'll get you some swag. By the way, I don't think you guys are losers. You guys are winners. Maybe it should be the Winner Kid Podcast, you know?
    61:34
    Well, we'll consider changing that. You're not a loser. I'm not a loser. It's not a Tuma. Okay, two things. One, if they want to send you a message, how do they get a hold of you? And two, if they are thinking of joining the Jersey Jack team, how do they apply? Jack at JerseyJackPinball.com we'll get you signed up we'll get you games, we'll get you swag we'll get you whatever you want okay, I want rad decals that's what I want rad cals for Wizard of Oz I can't find that tomorrow tomorrow's Veterans Day, we're closed in honor of all the veterans thank you all the veterans for your service to the country we really love you and appreciate you so we're closed in honor of Veterans Day tomorrow but I'll find out on Monday if we have any Excellent. Thanks, Jack. I get phone calls all the time from people that need help with their games, that have questions. If you get a Jersey Jack game, I'll just say this kind of funny thing. If you get a Jersey Jack game, on every game box, there's a little warning there that says if the box is damaged, then you should refuse it and call this phone number. And there's a toll-free number printed on the box. It rings on my cell phone. Wow. That's awesome. Wow. Wow. I can't expect I can't expect anybody in the company to answer the phone at all hours of the day and night and get somebody on the other end that says, oh, somebody put a forklift through my box.
    63:07
    OK, I don't know of any other president who puts their cell phone on the side of their boxes. You have to do that. You know, really, our customers become our friends after so long. And really, it's it's not work. It's just something I do that I love to do. you know so people are buying our product the least we could do is help them out support them and be there for them you know and and take care of them when they need us you know if they they remember what you do for them when they need you when they don't need you you could do anything and nobody remembers anything but in the bad times when people have problems you take care of them they really appreciate it and you get the loyalty and friendship forever well we wish we wish you All the best, and certainly you are a great asset into the pantheon of pinball makers right now. Thank you, guys, and I appreciate you guys spreading the word of pinball too. Now I have to go listen to another 120 episodes that you guys do. That sounds good. Back a lot. It's a lot of fun. Before we stop recording, two things. First off, we're going to – so Jack said in this interview what their best-selling game is to date. We're doing a giveaway. Ken Cromwell has been nice enough. He's giving us some Jersey Jack swag. Oh, yeah. we're going to give away your poster and Elton John poster. We're doing an Elton John poster. So if you know that answer, you can either email it to us at loser kid, pinball podcast at gmail.com or type it in the comments of this episode. If you are right, we're going to put you in a drawing and we'll do it next episode and we'll do it live or well recorded live, whatever it may be. We'll record it live.
    64:41
    And then the last thing is, if you want to get ahold of us, We are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. Or if you want to get to us on the socials, we're at Loser Kid Pinball. That's Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitch, YouTube, all the socials. So hit us up on all those. I guess it's X now. I apologize. Formerly known as – this is Prince, right? Like X, formerly known as Twitter.
    65:03
    Sure. Anywho. Everyone still says Twitter. Yep. Thanks again for coming on, Jack. We appreciate it. Thank you, Jack. We really appreciate the time. Thank you. And I hope I see you guys at the next show. Sounds good. Go buy Elton John. Thank you. Thanks.