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The Pinball Show Ep 35: WIN A FREE STERN PINBALL TOPPER...Even Though Den Den Disapproves

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 14m·analyzed·Oct 26, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

GNR Standard praised; JJP Hot Rails become featured tech; Stern reports 5k backorders; playfield pooling resurfaces.

Summary

The Pinball Show discusses a controversial tattoo-based giveaway for a Star Wars topper, reviews of the Guns N' Roses Standard machine from Jersey Jack Pinball, playfield pooling quality issues affecting recent releases, and Stern Pinball's reported 5,000 back orders indicating strong 2020 sales despite pandemic production constraints.

Key Claims

  • Jersey Jack Pinball has patented the Hot Rails technology and plans to use it in future games

    high confidence · Eric Menyer said in chat 'they patented them for a reason with a little winky' regarding Hot Rails on future JJP games

  • Guns N' Roses Standard model at $6,750 may be outsold by the LE/CE at higher prices due to visual differences visible in streaming

    medium confidence · Dennis and Zach discuss that COVID-era visual streaming makes buyers hesitant about Standard despite its gameplay quality, preventing a true test of market demand

  • Stern Pinball has approximately 5,000 back orders as of late 2020, extending into Q1 2021

    high confidence · Gary Stern quoted in WGN interview: 'We are oversold with games right now, probably into two or three months into next year. We have about 5,000 back orders right now.'

  • Playfield pooling issues have resurfaced on both Stern and Jersey Jack Pinball machines

    high confidence · Craig's news segment: 'playfield pooling issues are back, complete with scary photos on Pinside and other social media outlets' affecting GNR and Avengers machines

  • Melissa (Guns N' Roses keyboardist) is returning to record additional call-outs for the GNR pinball machine

    high confidence · Eric Menyer revealed in chat that Melissa is coming back to the recording studio to provide more call-outs for the game

  • Pat Lawler's next game is presumed to be Toy Story and may be his final design

    medium confidence · Zach speculates 'I'm going to go with yes. I think whatever his next game is, presumptively Toy Story, will be his final.'

Notable Quotes

  • “It's creepy. Come on. It's really creepy. Where would you like to be placed? I don't I don't want this to happen this is a bad idea”

    Dennis Kriesel @ ~12:00 — Dennis's emphatic rejection of the face tattoo giveaway concept, establishing the core tension of the episode

  • “We are oversold with games right now, probably into two or three months into next year. It's 2021, y'all. We have about 5,000 back orders right now.”

    Gary Stern (via WGN interview) @ ~58:00 — Official disclosure of Stern Pinball's backlog, validating strong pandemic-era demand

  • “I thought, oh, shit, the light shows are still in here. The game still looks like it does flow wonderfully. The code is all still there. I was pleasantly surprised.”

    Zach Minney @ ~25:00 — Positive assessment of GNR Standard's gameplay retention despite cost reductions

  • “That white GI from that Hot Rails really helped out a lot. You do miss out on the color because I believe the white hot rails are more a fade flashing or a constant rather than the individually coded RGBs”

    Zach Minney @ ~32:00 — Technical breakdown of lighting trade-off between Standard and LE models

  • “He said they patented them for a reason with a little winky. So I think we're going to see... they want to roll with long term.”

    Zach Minney @ ~48:00 — Confirmation that JJP Hot Rails is a strategic platform feature with patent protection

  • “I could be wrong, but no, I think he's got it. I'm going to go with yes. I think whatever his next game is, presumptively Toy Story, will be his final.”

    Zach Minney @ ~54:00 — Speculation about Pat Lawler's career trajectory and potential retirement after next title

  • “The big piece for Jersey Jack pinball machines. The GI or the general illumination is always panned by enthusiasts saying the damn games are so dark.”

    Zach Minney @ ~31:00 — Identifies known industry criticism of JJP lighting design across Wizard of Oz, Wonka products

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDennis KrieselpersonEric MenyerpersonPat LawlerpersonGary SternpersonMelissa (Guns N' Roses)personGuns N' Roses (Standard Model)gameJersey Jack Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern Pinball's reported 5,000 back orders may reflect strong 2020 home market growth exceeding production capacity, though overseas shipping delays and reduced operator purchases may contribute to backlog composition

    medium · Zach (distributor perspective): 'I would guess without a doubt they are selling more machines in 2020 than they were in 2019' but 'operator market is buying fewer than they did'

  • ?

    community_signal: Flippin' Out Pinball organized first-look streaming event for GNR Standard with designer chat presence and JJP giveaways, establishing media partnership model for product launches

    high · Zach coerced Bill Webb/Steve Beattie/Courtney Bowman to stream Friday launch party; 'Jersey Jack was excited about that as well, so they offered all kinds of giveaways'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: GNR Standard model received unexpectedly positive reception from competitive and casual player bases despite lacking premium cosmetics, shifting initial concerns about tier differentiation strategy

    high · Zach: 'I was pleasantly surprised' and 'competitive-based pinball players felt the same way' with messages saying 'the standard looks really fun, really good'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Guns N' Roses Standard model at $6,750 demonstrates viable lower-tier pricing strategy but faces market headwinds from visual differentiation visibility via streaming reducing demand relative to premium tiers

    medium · Dennis and Zach discuss that pandemic-era streaming visibility of LE/CE features discourages Standard purchases despite gameplay being competitive, preventing true test of demand

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.224

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:10
The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:26
It's time for The Pinball Show. it's pinball with personality it's pinball and we do have some personality do we i think there's a review that says i'm a wet blanket it's the pinball show with your hosts the goat lover and wet blanket zach minney and dennis kriesel how's it going everybody dennis how are you my friend i'm doing good the wall waterlogged ready to smother smother the fun you're ready to spin spin spin and whip Did anybody ever get you with one of those? With what? The beach towel after the pool. They spin it, spin it, spin it. No. I actually don't recall ever seeing anyone ever, other than in movies, that happen. Really? Was that like a thing in Indiana? It's definitely a thing. Wow. Absolutely. It was such a thing that in middle school, I had a peer. I was not the perpetrator, nor was I the victim, but it ended up in a bruised and welted ball sack because of that. Oh, it snaps hard, man. Any of you listeners out there ever been whipped with a wet towel? You know.
1:35
I'd rather have the belt, Dad. Just give me the belt. That's a great way to start a podcast, talking about in your childhood how you were disciplined. Yeah, did you ever have to go outside and pick the switch off the tree? That's really old school. My parents had to do that. Yeah, that was my parents. My parents had to do that. I don't recall having to go and pick my switch. That's when you just bring a log. You're like, you're a smartass. That might be infant side.
Stern Pinball
company
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Toy Story (rumored)game
Hot Rails (technology)product
Avengers Infinity Questgame
Wizard of Ozgame
Willy Wonkagame
Kelts (Pinball)game
Ken Rudbergperson
Craigperson
Dr. Johnperson
Bill Webbperson

design_philosophy: GNR Standard's removal of color-changing Hot Rails (white GI version) and missing premium stage components identified as notable visual loss point, though gameplay mechanics retained successfully

medium · Dennis: 'I really stood out to me that the Hot Rails weren't color changing. That was a good one. And I was like, I missed that. I really liked the color changing.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pat Lawler's concentrated design vision and resistance to adoption of new platform features (Hot Rails) suggests deliberate technical autonomy and late-stage career focus on specific aesthetic/mechanical goals

    medium · Zach: 'Pat Lawler likely has been working on the production of his next game for quite some time. So I don't see him going back now. Pat Lawler has a very concentrated vision'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern Pinball reports 5,000 back orders extending into Q1 2021, suggesting strong pandemic-era home sales growth offsetting reduced operator/location purchases

    high · Gary Stern (WGN): 'We have about 5,000 back orders right now' extending 'probably into two or three months into next year'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Active band member (Melissa from Guns N' Roses) returning to studio to record additional call-outs indicates unusually high artist engagement with pinball machine production, suggesting exceptional project reception

    high · Eric Menyer revealed 'Melissa is going to stream the first production game' and 'she's actually coming back in to record even more call-outs for this machine'

  • ?

    product_concern: Playfield pooling issues have resurfaced on both Stern (Avengers Infinity Quest) and Jersey Jack Pinball (Guns N' Roses) machines, affecting new in-box units despite years of reported complaints

    high · Craig's news segment: 'playfield pooling issues are back, complete with scary photos on Pinside and other social media outlets' and 'Stern and JJP are remaining horrifyingly silent on what could be causing this pooling'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: JJP's manufacturing capacity appears stretched managing both GNR Standard/LE/CE production and Pat Lawler's next game (presumed Toy Story), with timeline pressure from licensing obligations and COVID logistical constraints

    medium · Dennis: 'there are so many GNR orders, and a lot of people are already hearing it's going to be sometime in 2021 that they can get their game. I just don't know that spring-summer necessarily is going to' enable next title launch

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Initial skepticism about Jersey Jack Pinball's three-tier pricing strategy (Standard/LE/CE) partially validated by GNR Standard's successful gameplay retention, suggesting tiering may be sustainable if executed carefully

    medium · Dennis pre-stream: had concerns about Standard tier losing 'big components and mechanisms' but post-stream agreed the gameplay 'looked smoother' and more fun than Premium tier

  • ?

    technology_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball's Hot Rails RGB lighting system is now patented and positioned as a flagship technology for future games, indicating strategic platform commitment

    high · Eric Menyer in chat: 'they patented them for a reason with a little winky' in response to question about Hot Rails on future games

    • 2:01
    No, I got the hand, the corporal punishment of the hand, and I have received a belt on a couple of occasions, I'm not going to lie. I think there might have been some belt usage. It wasn't done often. Snowfly sweater wire, but deservedly so, probably. You did appear as a fly, so it was understandable.
    2:24
    What have you been up to, Dennis? Mostly work, which, of course, I don't really want to talk too much about. I haven't played any pinball in the last week. I almost did the other day, and I was just like, I'm just so tired and busy. I've been reading. I'm still working on my Dune books, waiting for my pinball Dune machine. You think it'll ever happen? It depends on the success of the movie. I think with the new movie coming out, though, it could. So that's the point, whether or not it will happen, the success of that, to revitalize that series in general? I think so, yeah. I mean, because the author is long dead. So at the end, what books his son continued and did were not very good in my judgment. So because I had read a couple of those. So, yeah, I think if the movie does really well, I could see a Stern pinball come in and say, because if the movie does well, they may. I'm sure the movie will only be about the first book. So you've got like seven to work with in the original series. So there's there's potential there for it to be, you know, maybe a trilogy or more of films. and you know how Hollywood loves to just do sequels. And you know how when you have that much content, it makes it easy to come in and say, okay, well, let's do a pinball machine because we've got a few different films to work from, pull assets and put in. I'm postulating a lot. It will come down to the success of the film. That and Stern doesn't do what Bally Williams or even Data East, I think, did in the day and take that blind leap of faith. Hey, we think this is going to be big Johnny Mnemonic. Like, let's go ahead and build a machine around it. They kind of wait walking dead until they know the seasons are good or Game of Thrones. You get the first two seasons of Stranger Things, that kind of thing. They want some proof first before they pull the trigger on the movie. Yeah, I think, and part of that is that there's no need for the pressure to have it come out when, say, the movie comes out. Yeah. Even I still sit and think, oh, wouldn't it make sense to have done Toy Story before GNR and to have released Toy Story before Wonka even and get it out before the new movie was coming out? But I've also not read that I can – I have never seen anything that showed like getting a pinball machine out right around when the movie is out helps with sales. I'm just – I'm making that up. So then I think, okay, well, maybe there isn't really a reason to do it. And I think back in the 90s, Bally Williams might have thought that made sense because the film would be fresh on everyone's mind for the people dropping quarters. And now when you're selling it into people's homes, it's about loving the theme. It's not about this instant, oh, yeah, Bobby is here to see the movie, and there's the little arcade. And it's like, oh, we're going to go see Terminator, Mom. I want to drop quarters in the Terminator game. That's a great point. You want to build on the nostalgia that's already been embedded into these people. So waiting for it to be hot and ready, if you will, is probably the most beneficial. How did our banner giveaway go? Oh, you know what? The banner giveaway went well. We did see a picture. You were joking around with Brian Cosner about winning the banner, and he was going to be wrapping himself up. He did. He actually did. He sent us a picture. I did see that photo. Wrapping himself up like the American flag after winning a gold medal with his child. So that was really nice. You know what? I have another giveaway. Already? Already. Don't you think we should give people a break? There's no time for taking a break when free shit is about to be given away. Oh. You think they're going to complain about free stuff? Well, they probably won't. Maybe I will. I feel like every week I'm shipping off free stuff. I'm like, oh no, where's this one going? You're a giver, Zach. You're a giver. Yeah, and this week, you know what? It's probably going to take longer than a week, but I'm about to give away, courtesy of sponsor flipping out pinball, a brand new topper. A new topper? Holy crap. Well, let's go with the limited edition Star Wars R2-D2 topper. Beep boop, beep boop. I still love that.
    6:27
    I'm still asking Raymond Davidson, try to code something in where Hulk says beep boop, beep boop. Yeah, Hulk 2-D2. That was one of our really good. If Ray Day can, I'll give him a lot of credit. Yeah, that was really good. So I'm going to be giving away a Star Wars topper. Wow. Courtesy of the Pinball Show and Flippin' Out Pinball. But to win this one, it's going to be a bit heavy. What do you mean by heavy? It's going to take pain. And it's going to take work. And it's going to take a little bit of money. So see this as an opportunity more so than a giveaway.
    7:04
    It's going to take money. It seems more as a purchase than a giveaway. All right. Here's what we're going to do. I have not discussed this with Dennis Creasel because I want to hear, number one, I want to hear his response. Number two, he would not want me to even pitch this or discuss this on a podcast. So that's what I do, people. I spring things on Dennis. He rolls his eyes and threatens to quit. Here's what we're going to do. To win a brand new limited edition Star Wars topper for that beautiful The Pin or the Pro, the Premium Ellie comic, you name it. It fits on all these machines. All you've got to do is get a tattoo of our faces, Dennis and Zach, on your body somewhere, or get a tattoo of the Flippin' Out logo. If you do that and you submit a picture to us, preferably also a video during the process of getting this tattoo, you will win a free $750 Star Wars topper, and I will include shipping to the continental United States. This is a horrible idea. I know. I knew you would. I don't want my face on anyone. That's creepy. It's really creepy. Come on. It's really creepy. Sure, it's creepy, but it's endearing as well. No, it's not. It's creepy. Where would you like to be placed? I don't want this to happen this is a bad idea the logo itself is tacky but the face thing oh my gosh please don't do it guys don't be this desperate for attention don't do this is sad this is the dark underbelly of the pinball hobby at least a three incher go three incher there's plenty of guys out there that want that topper that are willing to get a nice sketch. Just buy it. They're readily available. Just buy it. And you know what? If you want to do this and you submit the artwork to me and I approve of it, I may even purchase that tattoo for you. You're going to have veto authority over the design? This is really a bad idea. I might purchase the tattoo for them because that can be a little pricey. But if it's that good, I'll throw in the price of the tattoo. Don't do that. This is a terrible idea. Don't cancel this giveaway. No, I knew you'd do it. Maybe this is a violation of FDA rules or something.
    9:32
    FDA, schmastia. That's like a hepatitis C risk or something involved with the giveaway. I just can't. No, don't do this. Well, when in podcasting, isn't that what they say? They don't do this crazy stuff. Speaking of a horrible idea, you want to go over to our correspondents and see if they've drummed up some news after our pep talk of last week? Sure. Did they all send in segments? Spoiler alert, they didn't. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    10:03
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Jersey Jack continues to post photos on Facebook and Instagram showing Guns N' Roses machines getting put into boxes and standards on the line. But many buyers are complaining that there has been little to no information on when these machines will get to distributors and in turn be shipped to buyers' homes. This is causing confusion for buyers, and many of them have no idea when their machine will be coming. Some are saying that knowing the timeline, even if their machine is still months off, is better than knowing nothing at all.
    10:40
    Despite this, there have been some unboxings, and new buyers are finding that when they get their machine, they need to make a choice. Games arrive in standard mode that leaves out some songs. Buyers can shift to explicit mode that includes five new songs It's So Easy, Mr. Brownstone, Out to Get Me, Coma, and Double Talkin' Jive in addition to new call-outs and video This provides a more complete and some would say more authentic Guns N' Roses experience For The Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack Update The horror of playfield issues and new code updates. Hey everyone, Craig here again, the Pinball Show's Stern News Correspondent. Well, just in time for Halloween, one of the scariest all-time issues in pinball has surfaced again. No, it's not Zach singing, or an orbital Albert goat scream. Yes, playfield pooling issues are back, complete with scary photos on Pinside and other social media outlets.
    11:49
    And while the debate rages on between GNR and Avengers fans on which is the better pinball title, fans on both sides of the arcade are agreeing that these recent playfield pooling issues seen on select machines are as pesky, worrisome, and spooky as ever. Of course, both Stern and JJP are remaining horrifyingly silent on what could be causing this pooling and how widespread the problem is, leaving recent new in-box owners confused and angry that these playfield production quality issues are still occurring years after owners have first began identifying them. And while the number of these affected machines still remains relatively low, the fact that they are occurring at all is enough to cause some new in-box owners nightmares. Hopefully a representative from one of these companies will go on record soon to officially explain what the issues may be and how are they addressing them so current and future new Unbox owners can sleep comfortably at night once again. And hot off its blistering launch at the end of August, Stern has posted new Avengers Infinity Quest code V.92 for all models. This code contains game enhancements, additional polish, adjustments, and bug fixes. That's all for this week. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    13:16
    Hi and welcome to this week's SHIT update with Dr. John on the Pinball Show. Only news I've got this week is rather big, I think. Next Friday evening, 10pm Central USA time, which is 1pm Australian time, Saturday morning, if that all makes sense to you time travellers, Marty Robbins is going to stream the first production game of Kelts on his Melbourne Silver Ball Twitch stream something I'm looking forward to because it's actually going to be my game they're playing as the number one production model so feel free to tune in and have a look at Kelts, see how well it's developed, how it's come along with rules and gameplay something to look forward to hopefully you can all tune in and say hi And that's it for this week. Catch you all next week.
    14:10
    All right, always great to hear from the correspondents. There was a couple of them there. Yeah, we got some news. And with that news, were you able to check out the Guns N' Roses Standard Model Launch Party stream this last Friday? I was. I watched about an hour of it. Yeah, you were hanging out. We appreciate that, flipping out pinball. So we were able to secure a Guns N' Roses Standard. They were being shipped out to all the distributors. I did not see anybody streaming the thing, so I coerced Bill Webb and Steve Beattie and Courtney Bowman to kind of drop everything and on a Friday night stream that. And Jersey Jack was excited about that as well, so they offered all kinds of giveaways and made it kind of the official launch party stream. And that was really kind of them. They gave away a signed-up or play field. They gave away a Slash poster, Translites, hand sanitizer. I left before the giveaway, so I didn't know about all that. We gave them away by, I asked some of the creators, Eric Menier and Keith Johnson, what their favorite GNR song was. And in chat, people had to guess that favorite song. Oh, there's a lot to choose from. And also, Dennis, you submitted your favorite song as well. And people, I forgot who won, but somebody won a mask, JJP mask, and a hand sanitizer kit because they answered correctly that your favorite GNR song was Live and Let Die. Yeah, you messaged me asking me what my favorite one was because I wasn't sure if that one counts because, you know, technically it's a Paul McCartney song. Yeah, it's true. But they got it in the game. And it's at the concert. I mean, they do perform it. I like the GNR version. They do damn well. So we gave away all of that stuff, and the whole world was able to see for five or six hours the standard machine. and I want to get some of your feedback, Dennis, from what you had seen. I was a bit worried about the standard. We talked about it here for the last couple weeks. It seems like you're missing a lot of the big components and mechanisms and some of the gimmicks in the game, but myself, after watching it, I was thoroughly surprised. I thought, oh, shit, the light shows are still in here. The game still looks like it does flow wonderfully. The code is all still there. I was pleasantly surprised. I, yeah, I had concerns as well, because this is a game that I think really was relying on its, in its launch on just how World Under Glass integrated theme it was going for. That's fair. And, you know, so much of those pieces aren't in the SE. You know, like a lot of the stage setup, the, like the cam moving lights and all that. Guitar lock. Yeah. The difference on, now, one of the things that, and maybe this shouldn't surprise me, because this has often been the case for games that do this. but I thought it looked like it shot better without those upper play fields. I liked the speed of the flow and the ball looping around, getting back up to the top lanes and stuff. It looked smoother to me.
    17:10
    So I actually thought, okay, well, and maybe that's just my personality on gameplay type, but I thought, okay, I might actually enjoy shooting the standard more. It looked like I would. Coming away from it, I think a lot of competitive-based pinball players felt the same way. I've got messages saying, hey, this standard, I agree with Dennis a lot on what you guys have talked about, but the standard looks really fun, really good. Yeah, no, I thought it looked like it played more fun, what my definition of fun is. So I guess the biggest negative, well, the game was really well lit. And I really, and I don't normally, for me, I don't usually think of myself as someone who notices lighting so much, but it really stood out to me that the Hot Rails weren't color changing. That was a good one. And I was like, I missed that. I really liked the color changing. I thought that the white ones provide great lighting. I thought that the game looked extremely well lit. Well, that's the big piece for Jersey Jack pinball machines. The GI or the general illumination is always panned by enthusiasts saying the damn games are so dark. Picture Wizard of Oz being so dark or even kind of dialed in. Willy Wonka at times. They're so dark. And I'm with you. That white GI from that Hot Rails really helped out a lot. You do miss out on the color because I believe the white hot rails are more a fade flashing or a constant rather than the individually coded RGBs on the hot rails of the LAC But still with that being said, that light show still outshines almost anything else in the industry, even on the standard. There's still a lot of color changing RGB in this game. I it's so it's just one, it's just one component and you know, in terms of doing the comparison and stuff. So yeah, I, I mean, in a way it would be for me the gameplay is the is the aspect that would be of most interest to me so if indeed the standard plays more to the style i like i would favor it even with the losses in some of the immersion but but uh another person a collector who's more about winning that stage show would i think will still ultimately lean towards the le or ce just because the symbols and the lights and the and just even more color change you know there's just a lot that you do have to sacrifice but with that price drop even more so on jersey jacks 67 50 that's a hell of a lot of game there for 67 50 that's what kept ringing in my ears it's like damn 67 50 for this that's a lot of game i can see the standard selling very very well do you think that the standard when it's all said and done will sell more than the le no no i don't either no no if if Things may be different if locations were where they were at pre-2020. And that's the thing. Because of the pandemic, it's completely screwed up. It's having a really good experiment on the standard, I think, unfortunately. The $6,750 compared to $9,500, that is a leap. Yeah, and I still think that it's smart for JJP to continue to try and push a standard model and get that price lower and lower. So I think strategically it was the right move. I just, unfortunately, because of COVID, I think what, I think we're not going to get the real test that they thought they were going to get. And that's no one's fault. It's just unfortunate because I think it would have been really interesting to see if that drove an even higher percentage of SC sales versus Wonka, for example, because I think it would have. But now I'm not sure just because people are going to be worried and they can see without getting their hands on it. they can see the visual difference so easily in the videos between the se and the le and so it's just but you know that's that's true with anything i mean i said the same thing with avengers when i first saw avengers i was like i don't know if i would like the pro uh but ultimately the way the gameplay of the pro is probably does appeal to me more and just because i usually when push comes to shove i'd rather have speed so yeah it's a steve richard fan yeah yeah it's just my preference i'm I tend to favor speed under most circumstances. Yeah, it was a good showing overall. They did a good job showcasing that game. People were really wanting to see what the standard looked like, how it flowed, if there was a huge difference between that and the aforementioned LEC. So I think it shined overall. I was glad that we got the opportunity to do that, and I would like to have the same opportunity maybe on the collector's edition, grabbing one of the first ones of those, unboxing it, and showing it off to the world. But that likely won't have many differences at all from the LEs that we've seen streamed thus far, but maybe. Right. Well, there's more. I mean, other than the coma ball lock, I guess it's really mostly just spectacle stuff, more lights and things. But given that the CEs are all sold out, I don't know if there's going to be the same level of interest amongst viewership, for example, because they know they can't get it. Very, very true. Eric Menyer stopped by the chat, and he talked at some length, answering some questions, the designer of Guns N' Roses from Jersey Jack. And he dropped a little nugget that we found very interesting, and we took note here. Eric Menyer said in chat that Guns N' Roses' Melissa, that does a lot of the call-outs, I think she's one of the keyboardists from the band, she's actually coming back in to record even more call-outs for this machine. Oh. I don't know if there's a reason for that, but it sounds like she was just so into what they were doing over here with representation of the band and this pinball machine. She's willing to come back to the recording studio and give even more call outs. And some of her call outs are the greatest when in that adult mode. They're pretty filthy and raunchy and hilarious. So I thought, wow, she's coming back in. You don't see that too often. No, that's pretty cool. And then I asked Eric in chat if he was going to be using Hot Rails on future games. So I'm thinking this next game you're working on, you're going to be putting in these Hot Rails because they are a certified hit. He said they patented them for a reason with a little winky. So I think we're going to see. Yeah, I think given how they marketed them, named them and everything, that it's pretty clear that this is a feature that they want to roll with long term. The real question is going to be, and only time is going to tell, but whether or not Pat Lawler, the other designer of Jersey Jack Pinball, will be utilizing Hot Rails in his games. I would guess no initially.
    23:51
    That's what I would guess. I would say, but why not? Because it's not going to impact the geometry of his design. No, but I think that... Do you think he spent the money on other mechs, and so he just can't, like for a bomb, can't put them in? I'm just thinking he's likely, Pat Lawler likely, has been working on the production of his next game for quite some time. So I don't see him going back now. Pat Lawler has a very concentrated vision of what he wants to see in pinball. And we saw that unfold on Willy Wonka, for better or worse. So I don't know if he will embrace this as quickly as his next design. Just my guess. Well, I don't think it's a bad guess. But let me ask you, do you think that Pat Lawler designs another game after his next game? Oh, that's a bigger question. I'm not sure. I think he might be close to the end.
    24:49
    One would think, but he feels very much like a Steve Ritchie. I'm in it. I'm not saying necessarily that he retires, but could he end up assuming a Gomez-type role and just coordinating a couple of teams and overseeing design rather than doing design. But if he does that, Dennis, I still think we're going to hear it being a Pat Lawler-led design. So I don't – no, I don't think so. I could be wrong, but no, I think he's got it. I'm going to go with yes. I think whatever his next game is, presumptively Toy Story, will be his final. I mean, ideally, if you think he's done in two years, then yeah.
    25:26
    But if they're really trying to push these things out and get his next title out, next year, spring, summer, then I think you could see more. But with ongoing clear coat questioning now that we're hearing brew up again with Stern pinball machines, Jersey Jack pinball machines, who knows?
    25:47
    Well, I mean, separate from the continuing clear coat issues, which, of course, we've discussed in the past, the issue is the – and I know we're going to touch on this a little bit when we move into the Stern pinball segment, But there are so many GNR orders, and a lot of people are already hearing it's going to be sometime in 2021 that they can get their game. I just don't know that spring-summer necessarily is going to – I'm very skeptical that JJP will launch another game that early. I know Jack historically kept talking about the desire to put out two games a year. I don't think they're there yet. And they might not need to be now with the hotness of this title. Right. The only real issue that I imagine that causes any sort of consternation would be whether their obligations for their next license mandate. It's finite, so they have to at some point move it. And if it is the rumored toy story, I would think there are some limitations on that licensing in general, and the ball is in their court in a lot of ways. But if that pressure is far enough down the road, again, I'd go back to Josh Sharp of Raw Thrills saying, if the line's busy, you don't need to push out another game until the line starts to slow. The whole goal is to keep the line busy. And it sounds like JJP's line is going to be plenty busy for the next few months. I just hope they can figure it out because I've been to the factory, Dennis. They have ample resources and room to run the hell out of pinball machines. So I would like to think that they have a couple lines rolling and they will have plenty of time to have a secondary line of a Guns N' Roses while they throw Pat Lawler's new game up in the early summer. Kind of like the Wonka launch that was April, May-ish. And then they started getting those out in June. So I'd like to see that. I think that's a logical ultimate goal. But again, given the current ongoing COVID pandemic, I don't know what they're, you know, in terms of trying to comply with whatever requirements Illinois has in terms of spacing, social distancing, their line workers. There may be reasons, there may be logistical reasons involving the pandemic that don't allow them to take full advantage, even if they could. Yeah, very true. All right, good discussion all around. If you want to go see the standard model streamed, it's now on a video on demand on YouTube. Just got to go to Flippin' Out Pinball's YouTube page and subscribe and follow while you're there. But, yeah, it's there. Speaking of production, in Stern Pinball news, WGN interviewed Gary Stern recently. And Gary talked about a big number of back orders that they had. I'm going to read this quote. He said, quote, we are oversold with games right now, probably into two or three months into next year. It's 2021, y'all. We have about 5,000 back orders right now. You think it's accurate? 5,000 back orders? That's a lot. Yes.
    28:48
    I mean, I don't – it seems high to me, but I also – I have no basis to question it either. Like I don't know what they're – because here's the thing. It doesn't – like talking about the back orders, and again, we know they had to take steps with their line. They had to slow up their production. So even if they're oversold, it isn't the same as saying they're selling more games in 2020 than they did in 2019.
    29:15
    This is just a question of – if you're like – if you were supposed to be putting out 50 games a day and you're currently putting out 25, you can see where you could fall behind. Based on the information that I have as a distributor, I would guess without a doubt they are selling more machines in 2020 than they were in 2019. And I'm not saying that they are. I have heard they have in other interviews with other Stern employees, it has sounded like the home sales have increased. I don't know what the impact has been though on the – well, obviously, I think it's safe to say that the operator market is buying fewer than they did, but they are a smaller percentage. The big question for me is I don't know what's been going on overseas. Yeah, that's a big one. If they've been having to sit on orders that were supposed to go overseas because of problems with transcontinental shipping or whatnot, maybe that's a lot of these back orders. And I've not heard whether or not that is true. So as a dealer, I can say we don't serve a large group of location or operators because only until recently have we kind of been allowed to sell more commercially rather than just consumer or residential base. But I can say that the locations that we do serve, they continue to buy all of these new titles. They're still buying them. And that might be – no, I can't say regionally because we sell to operators in New York. Look, we sold a, yeah, they're still buying them. 5,000 back orders. Now, this is the closest we're going to get being given a number by Gary Sterner, Stern Pinball. They're telling us 5,000 back orders right now. So that is at least a little bit of a basis as to what they're selling. Yeah. In relation to what, I don't know. But that's kind of a flag that we can pin right now and use that maybe later on to see if we can figure out a close estimation of what they're doing. How many pinball machines have you assumed that Stern Pinball roughly has been pushing out in the most recent couple of years? I'd have to think about that to give a really good guess. My guess has been somewhere in the order of 15,000 to 20,000. I could probably give you a closer, just knowing where I stack up in the distribution model.
    31:31
    I could give you a closer guess, but I don't think that that would be far off at all. Okay. It might be more.
    31:40
    So, so given, but still 5,000 is a very large percentage. That is a lot. And look, I'm sitting on. But there were months where they couldn't build. So, and I know, I mean, I hear from, from people. There's still, you know, with COVID running in and out of all of these establishments, you can't tell me that that doesn't slow them down at all. and you know you've touched on we've talked about on prior episodes about games that are going back eventually onto the stern line for additional runs we know that Batman 66 was going to have more units produced there was another one a pro model was it Guardians or something that was going to have some more units produced Guardians still takes runs their category is still that's all back order we did have indication that I believe Black Knight is now discontinued. I think Blackwood is discontinued. Yeah, I do recall us talking about an announcement when they were doing Final Call. And Iron Maiden is slowing down, if not ending very soon. And I know there were a ton of Jurassic Park back orders when the pandemic hit, because there was all this stuff about, well, they're going to be doing Turtles, but then there were all these JPs that needed to be done. Yeah, and JPs are...
    32:50
    Let's see, we're getting more JP premiums this week. So they're still rolling those out. And that damn title, man, that thing still keeps rolling and i think and i think that could explain where that's part of where i could maybe see us getting to the 5000 is you had a really high demand with a long burn title like jurassic park and then turtles and avengers both seem to have pretty significant demand as well whereas when jurassic park came out that was a lighter year like monsters had initial like flash in the pan interest but no long tail and the black knight was more niche so you really only had Jurassic Park as the, I mean the other big hit was Elvira but Elvira had no pro model so obviously they had assumed fewer sales anyway based off of the boutique nature of that game and this year though all your cornerstones have done very well I think for Sturdy and I can tell you as a dealer I am well over 100 pinball machines back ordered right now well over it that's a lot of pinball machines that's a lot, there's a lot of pinball out there people they're at home zach they they're bored yeah i know but we still gotta we gotta order so much in advance because nicole's always like why in the hell are we getting like 10 or 15 batmans like what the we don't have those pre-sold i'm like because i had to order them three months ago and i knew that they were only going to build one more run until the rest of the holiday so and i don't know when they're going to run them again so it's it's tough it is a really tough guessing game that dealers are in right now and foreseeably well into 2021 if not the entire year again so it's merely a guessing game yeah well that's the that's the annoying part of retail jeez but there is good news avengers has a new code update you love code updates and this one's at 0.9 twosies okay just some cleanup stuff some polish like to clean up and polish when's the last time you cleaned and polished your car i took it to the car wash two weeks ago did you really so you're a frequenter of the car wash oh i i not not really i think it probably been a month before i had done it at least all over now that the leaves are falling uh dust is getting everywhere poop and bird poop not human poop but yeah bird poop no usually not human it's that guy it's that disgruntled reviewer that said you're a wet blanket just slid poo right down your windshield 0.92 i don't ever wash my flipping out fan i'm getting ready to get it rewrapped again do you think i should put bye bye bye on it somewhere no i think it's going on there it's too niche i don't know what percentage of your buyers listen to uh this show i wouldn't cross contaminate I'd keep it pure. The local people wouldn't know what to do, but I don't know. But I do things just because they're fun. But then again, yeah, well, that's fine. And maybe if you do that, you'll finally get to know that guy in your town that sells those pinball machines that you don't know about. Yeah, who is that? Speaking of New Avengers Code, I was able to drop off Evansville here. The small little town, Dennis, had a tournament. It was almost like a sternament. They had all kinds of sterns lined up, but they didn't have Avengers. So I was like, guys, you want Avengers? And they were like, holy shit, yes. I went and dropped that off and they were like, are you playing in the tournament? And I was like, no, I'm saving myself. And they shook their head and didn't know. They were like, thanks for the machine, dude. Oh, you know what else is new?
    36:21
    Toppers. Don't you love toppers, Dennis? I'm not huge into toppers, but. It seems like the higher price a topper is, the better it sells. Why is that? That makes no logical sense whatsoever. But Elvira toppers are selling, selling, selling. And I was able to, I begged Stern long enough, and I'm getting an even higher allotment of Elvira toppers. So I don't know when they're coming. We don't have them currently, but we're taking pre-orders on those. Can you believe that Elvira toppers are selling as well as they are? Because they're the laughingstock of media. Sure. I can believe anything. It's pinball. And you know what else is turning up? We talk a lot about toppers. What about shooter rods? Are you a shooter rod accessory kind of fella? I considered those before but I don normally do it Is that your soft spot No because the problem is I don like a shooter rod that uncomfortable in the hand I still remember the horrid Optimus Prime shooter rod from Transformers.
    37:26
    Yeah, a lot of them are like that. Or when people get one with a spike on the end, because sometimes for soft plunging, I might want to slap Lee.
    37:36
    And then it's like I've impaled myself. I've done that once. I have, yes. Oh, that's like the poignest bruise. It hurts so bad. But otherwise, if it's smooth and comfortable still, the main thing needs to be comfort. But I think it's a nice, easy way to add some visual flair that historically has not been overly expensive. So, yeah, I've been sympathetic to it. When Stern was doing – this hadn't even been a year or two ago. They were doing just these little knob replacements a la like Game of Thrones or Iron Maiden where it just has like a decal on the end. I didn't like those very well. I think they've learned that because they have developed and they are now showing the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles shooter rod accessory.
    38:20
    And it's pretty fucking fantastic. It looks really good. I sent you a picture of it, Dennis. What are your first thoughts when seeing it? This one looks like it would be comfortable to use. More of a, yeah. That kept it smooth. The hilt of a sword. Yes. And we'll throw this picture. I don't know if any other dealers or Stern has announced or showed this yet, but we'll put it on the Pinball Network Facebook, maybe Pinside. But it's the hilt of a sword. It looks like Leonardo's sword wrapped in blue, and it has accentuated with gold, like a flat gold finish. Fits the machine perfectly. And when I saw it, I thought, yep, that's a must. Buy, buy, buy! All day, every day. I don't know how much it's going to be, though. I think probably, if I had to guess. $1,000? No, either $90. they've been going $89.99 or the lit ones I think are $140 is this one lit? it's not lit but because of the molding I don't know I think it's only going to be a $90 one that's a good mod maybe we'll give one of those away in the future am I the Oprah of pinball?
    39:26
    I don't know Oprah doesn't normally say you've got to get a tattoo of her face I don't recall that I want it on the shoulder.
    39:37
    Somebody's shoulder. That's where I think I want it. Don't put it on your face, people. I don't want to be on your face. Maybe your neck. Would you take a Dennis Creasel neck tattoo? Oh!
    39:48
    If I see somebody get this tattoo, I'm going to have to want to see it in person, even if it's on their ding-dong. I'm going to want to see it. Can we quit talking about the stupid tattoo idea? Ding-dong tattoos? Okay.
    40:01
    What about Haggis Pinball? Do they have any news? They've got to be about done with this Kelts game. I think there might be a stream coming up with a little bit of the Kelts action. That is right. We heard from Dr. John that Martin Robbins from TPN's Final Round Pinball Podcast, he has a streaming team, Melbourne Silver Bowl. He's going to be streaming the first production Kelts, which is actually Dr. John's game. They're going to be streaming that next Friday around 10 p.m. Central Time. So check that out. I've been wanting to see how this thing shoots. Yeah, I didn't get a good look at it when it was at the TPF in 2019. So obviously I've seen a lot of photos and some video of it, but I would like to actually see it played. Yeah, Greg Bone, buddy, says that the code, he really likes the code on this game. So that's what I'm most interested in seeing. I always have a soft spot for single-level designs because I think there's a lot of creativity that you can see with that. But it's awfully symmetrical, Dennis. I know you don't like too much symmetry. Well, again, when I look at it, my default thought is when I look at it, it doesn't look unique enough versus what a TNA brought to the table. So I'm putting it below that by default, but I haven't seen it played yet. So we'll see. We'll see how it looks. Speaking of, I got some shit for advertising the flipping out GNR standard thing.
    41:25
    Educate me, Dennis, if you know, because you know everything. when I put CST, central standard time, I thought that was like a universal thing. Apparently it switches. It switches to CDT? Yeah, we're not in CST right now. We're in CDT. Who decided that? That's the designator that lets you know whether or not you're recognizing daylight savings time. What's it matter, though? That's what I'm not understanding. Because there are parts of the country that are in central standard time right now that don't celebrate. celebrate is not the right word but they don't celebrate daylight savings time your your start time was actually set it was uh central daylight time so because we're still in daylight savings so they're not all parts of the country recognize that what do you mean they don't recognize it they just are like no we'd daylight savings time is not done in every single county in the in the u.s okay see you're you're educating my ignorance here because i i didn't know that i thought it was a universal some people switch time some people don't and it's based on geographically where you fall on the different lines. Right. You have your time zones, which you're familiar with, like Pacific, Mountain, Central, and Eastern. But within those, it's a question of whether or not are you recognizing daylight savings time or not, because there are some jurisdictions that have chosen not to ever recognize daylight savings time. When you're in daylight savings time, then it's CDT, EDT, MDT. If you're not, when you're in standard, so in a few weeks, after Halloween, we're going to go to standard. It's going to be CST at that point. How convoluted? It is. What I normally do, just to avoid that because I do agree that it's confusing, is I will usually just use the word central. I'll say it's going to be at 7 p.m. central. And then most people will be like, oh, well, is it – and it's like, okay, well, are we in daylight savings time? Most of the country, the vast majority, uses daylight savings time. So if I say 10 Central, everyone will assume you mean daylight savings time if daylight savings time is still in session and standard if it's not. Why can't everybody just agree? Well, like who gets to decide this shit? Oh, there's been legislation here in Kansas. It was introduced even earlier this year to move us out of doing daylight savings time. There are a lot of people that hate it. It's a pain in the ass. If I was the president of the United States, I'm here to tell you I would move towards a standardization. you guys know i love standardization well federally it is standard like federally there's the guidance of when is daylight savings time but you're not obligated as a local you can't the federal power because of our our division of states rights isn't such that you can make a state or a county or whatever follow your state or the senate can't figure this shit out i mean it's just Here in Kansas, we're not all central. I've got half of the Colorado border counties, only half of them. They're all in a row. Half of them do mountain and half of them do central. Yeah, we're split up. We're like the only tip of Indiana that's on central because everybody's like, oh, you're on eastern time. I'm like, no, I'm on central actually, Chicago time. Here in a couple days when I go to vote, I am going to do my research to see which one of these politicians feel that this is an important thing because that's where my vote's going.
    44:41
    Well, the answer will probably be none of them. But maybe some of your state legislators will care. Yeah, I'm going to call my mayor. All right, so Haggis Pinball is debuting. Why did we? I'm sorry, listener. Oh, my God, I feel like I'm being punished here with a central daylight saving standard time. It's like karma coming back to me because I'm not well educated. Oh, yes, I love it. This is what you'll get when you mess with us. What is that karma, please? You like that, little Radiohead? No, I think I'm going to hang up. Karma Police. Goodbye. You can wrap up the episode without me. No. You don't have to be with Market Trends. Stick around, Dennis. It's your favorite segment. It's people!
    45:24
    Karma Police, Market Trends. I should just take away the Market Trends song and just have Karma Police song. Radiohead. That's what all the kids listen to nowadays, right? Little Radiohead? You don't like Radiohead, huh? turning up this week, Radiohead. I think kind of the weather has gotten me down, so I want to be somber and stewing in my own negativity. And what better than a little bit of Radiohead talking about Hitler's hairdo and whatnot. For those of you who got that reference, you're a fan. I like it.
    46:00
    Turning up this week is Guns N' F'n Roses Standard Edition. What say you, Dennis? can you refute the upness of this trend i don't you know i don't really like you doing market trends on really games that are for sale at retail price because the price is fixed maybe you know there's some dirty dealers out there like i know there's 67 50 but i've got one hot in the shop right now for 7500 but it's trending up because it showed well people are ordering them more now that they were able to see it, hear it. Can't feel it yet. You had to go by that of Bill Webb's grubby hands, but it's trending up and it fits the bill. There was a big difference in initial ordering between an LE and a standard. LEs were selling substantially at higher rates than the standards, but I think that is, well, I know that's already changing a little bit personally with what I experienced, but I think you're going to see more and more of that. All's trending up this week is almost a trending. What the fuck? It's dialed in.
    47:11
    Dialed in? What the hell? Why is that in here, Dennis? I don't know. No guess? Nope. Yeah. From a monetary standpoint, it is not trending up. But the market does predict this trending up As their allotment at Jersey Jack Pinball is probably sold out now, they finally, I think, sold all of the dialed-ins, we have had three sales of brand-new and boxed dialed-ins in the last two weeks. That is a trend I haven't seen for months, people. Dialed-in people are just suckling that last little nectar that's left in the honeycomb. That just rolled off the tongue. That felt good. All's trending up is Deadpool Premium in L.A. why is this game still as hot as it is i i don't know deadpool pros ready to go maybe it's because stern pinball has not been producing le's for over a year now two years we're getting close there but the premiums they're not rolling out these premiums at often at all i think they had one run the entire year here maybe two i don't know when the next run is actually i do i think it's in November.
    48:24
    But those are all kind of accounted for. Deadpool premiums. You're going to see that hold financially, if not raise up a little bit. Now that everybody's seeing all these new games, they know they still want their Deadpool. And last trending out this week is none other than TP in itself. Hot damn, the Pinball Network. Agree or disagree, Dennis?
    48:46
    It's always fun to pat ourselves on the back. So yeah, let's agree. We don't do that too often, but I've got to tell you, the numbers don't lie we're only reporting the facts here at the pinball networks pinball show presents pin ball market trends and look seven podcasts this week from tpn seven that's impressive it's a heavy week that's i still have three of them i haven't heard man they're good the most recent one before this episode was the continuation of horror fest over at silver ball stories pretty gruesome there josh jacobs i'm starting to question your personality a little bit behind the scenes but hey maybe you don't have severed heads in your freezer i don't know but your content is pretty amazing seven podcasts this week they were all really well done we even got a midweek show we got a final round with a special guest of zach sharp oh the the plum came back the Plum is back!
    49:42
    The Gimnick! She's back! And boy, oh boy, does she have a great interview with Vinacourt. I liked it because it dabbled into non-pinball stuff, but done so in a very tasteful and interesting way. Unlike us. Hey, man. It's also training up this week, the Pinball Network, because of this promo commercial that the TPN streamers did. They surprised me with it. I didn't help with any of that. But did you see the drug commercial they did? Yeah, yes, I did. Oh, I always love... The streamers have almost too much fun, I fear. Oh, there can never be too much fun. Even though they have another thing. Did you see the other thing? Yeah, you did. You're participating in it. The other thing that I think Fliptronic is going to be doing. So, yeah, Fliptronic's got something really cool coming up. But, man, that drug commercial, if you haven't seen that, the side effects and different things, it's so cleverly written and produced nicely done there. We got a final round hitting on all cylinders. We just added top rope pinball. Robert Byers, wild man himself down there in Texas. Pew, pew, pew. Guitar heels. And I think we'll be having another podcast transition into formal full TPN standalone status soon. Oh, really? Yeah, that's what I think. I think so, too. Turning up is the Pinball Network. Turning down, though, is every other podcast. No, all the other podcasts are doing quite well as well. And media. I'm listening to the bro show right before we started. I actually am as well. I'm into the beginning of Nick Lane's rant about Clearco stuff. Ah. I'm going to take a blast. I'm on the tail end of their comments on GNR. I got you. It's coming. Training Down is not Buffalo Pinball. Training Down is Chicago Gaming Company. I haven't heard from them in a while That's why they're training down How long has it been Dennis Creasel Since we've seen a damn game From Chicago Gaming Company It feels like two years Is that true? It may be, they announced that Medieval Madness Royal I don't even know if that's a remake It's almost like another It's like the Black Arrow edition Really cool But we got that in October I'm speaking really really I'm using hyperbole for those that don't understand, but no one cares about that. They want to hear about a new thing, a new game. And we didn't get Monster Bash and production issues and delays. Yeah, no, Monster Bash was super delayed, shockingly delayed. I mean, a lot of people were pretty upset. So was Medieval Madness Royals. They announced that in October. We didn't start getting those until, like, May, June, July, August?
    52:27
    No, unacceptable. I don't know what is going on over there. every time they do produce a game they sell well and they are built well and they are solid but the duration of time between those two they're they're falling back there's no way that i now hold them to the standard of a jersey jack sales wise is there do you think they're still selling more do you think they're selling more than jersey jacks no i don't especially after the gnr launch i don't cgc bring it we need to see some cactus canyon or whatever you got and i want to see that original game poor ben heck he's gonna have a long beard before his game comes out also trending down this week this is sad to say but there is a media trend in discussing ongoing clear code issues on new pinball machines or the the big ones too the big titles we're hearing it from Stern Games we're hearing it from JJP Games I don't know if I'm jaded because I'm always going to hear from it because I sell from people and shit happens and shit's going to always happen so there are times that they're going to come in and somebody's going to say hey mine's starting to bubble here mine's starting to chip here it is what it is we always take care of them from a Stern perspective I know I haven't had to deal with too many from JJP we did some with Wonka We were able to get some play fields. So I'm always kind of seeing it and hearing it. So I don't know if it is getting worse or because these new hot titles, they're shipping more of them. I don't know what it is. I can't pinpoint it. But regardless, I'm always going to trend down clear code issues on new pinball machines. What the hell? Yeah, I think we've talked about it so many times. There's nothing new to really say, which is the thing. I don't want to just regurgitate that. Something's clearly – something's clearly wrong they still clearly haven't cracked the code on how to fix it you were really good i hope that they had when they started like receding the art away from the posts and stuff regarding the bubbling and such but but i mean the problems continue to manifest and it's just i i hope that uh they can figure out a a long-term solution because unfortunately as these games continue to creep up in price people are going to be more and more expectant that this not be a problem. A plus for the puns there. You used bubble, you used cracked, you used it all clear. Man, it's good. I think the only way to get this figured out is to pool all the experts together.
    54:59
    I like that. Good. Pool. Good job. Fix it, people! Is it enough not to buy a game, though? Sure. Okay. I mean, I could definitely see. If it's going to bother you, I wouldn't buy.
    55:18
    It would be better not to buy than to buy and then deal with play field swaps in my view. Yeah, if it's going to take you a play field swap to do it. Right. But you have to ask yourself whether or not aesthetically that's an issue or not. The one thing I have not heard is that – Well, everybody would say it's an issue. Well, sure. It depends on the type of buyer you are. So some people are going to say, well, it's going to impact my resale value and I'm going to lose too much money when I get out of the game and they might not like it. And there are others that can say all right I don it a problem I wish it didn happen but it doesn affect gameplay and I still want to enjoy the game So if you can look past that and still have fun with the fact that the game will play fine even if it does bubble, chip, or peel away, then go forth and don't let that stop you from having fun with the game. But I can't advise people to buy something if they're just going to end up calling you or any other distributor constantly asking for new play fields. Yeah, that's just a that's just a headache waiting to happen. I don't care if it's free or not to get the fix. But Dennis, what do you say to the people that would argue with you and say, Dennis, you're the problem then? Because if we continue to allow this as consumers, then it won't ever be fixed. When you when you give that little specification of if it bothers you, then don't buy, then they're going to continue doing it. What would you say to that person? Well, this is true for anything. So my position is the right position because it is. I agree. It's not my place to say your problem with the generic you. Your problem with the bubbling or the peeling or whatever the issue is that you don't like with the clear has to be the same priority level to me. And if I am someone who says this is about playing a machine, these were designed for operators, it's not going to be a perfect piece of art. whatever excuses I have in my head to justify why I still want to have the game, if I still want to have the game, it is not your place to stop me from having it. It's not your place. It feels very much like the topper arguments for me. I know that they're vastly different, but I feel like if I'm still making a conscious effort to buy these, knowing what could happen with some of these quality issues, knowing that going in, I'm getting shit on by some vocal people in the community saying, let's lynch and let's get these people that continue to drive up these topper prices. It's you that's doing this. I'm getting that feeling a little bit. I don't know how to change it because at the end of the day, my ass will still buy. I hate saying it, but what am I going to lie to you people? I know if I want to play Guns and Roses, I'm still going to buy it. It might be wrong, but I don't have... It's entirely subjective. I mean, for my part, yes, I would weigh this, the idea of mostly because I think that this should have been solvable by now. Sure. So I'm very skeptical about buying personally, but it's not my place to tell you not to buy a game that you think is fun for that regard. I buy really nice athletic shoes at times, right? Buy some Jays. What is the difference here? If I buy a really nice pair of Jays and I wear them and I scuff them, what's the difference? Is that not the similar argument? Well, I think the difference is that a shoe is supposed to get scuffed when that happens. Or like a car is going to get scratches or chips from road debris as you drive. Vehicles are going to throw sand up, and you're going to get scratches in the Midwest on your car. It's inevitable. That's part of the normal life cycle of the car. In the case of a pinball machine, the idea that you might see swirling and dirt build up and such, that's part of the life cycle of the pinball machine. the bubbling of clear coat is not. Don't play it then. Then don't play it. But I think, but this is where I do sympathize with them. No, the standard has slipped then. You're right, you could say don't play it, except people can point and say, the clear didn't chip away the art five years ago, so why is it okay now? Yeah, but people could say, oh, tennis shoes held up better when they were made domestically too. This is a defect. That's the difference. The tennis shoes, whether you could say they scuffed more or less, first of all, no, they did not scuff any less easy in the past. But secondly, it's that this is a defect. Yeah. So I'm okay with you saying that you can live with the defect and buy the game and still have fun with it and justify that. I cannot cross the bridge, Zach, and tell people to pretend that this isn't a defect. Somehow we've lowered our standard. And I don't want to be an apologist here. I'm not – Well, that line of thinking is flirting with that, so be careful. No, I'm not trying to be an apologist. I know. I'm merely noting that. Once you start trying to rationalize and start acting like – this is not like if I buy a wristwatch and I'm going to get scratches on it. I don't want to feel guilty for enjoying something. Why? Why do I have to feel guilty enjoying something?
    60:27
    That's my only thing. No, you don't have to. I don't agree with the idea of people that they have a problem with the clear code or any issue with the game and their strategy to try and force changes to guilt people into agreeing to a boycott. Yeah, that kind of stuff I just – If you want a boycott, that's what this is. If you want a boycott, organize a boycott. I'm totally fine with it. But I don't agree with the strategy of, okay, you make your argument and say why there should be a boycott. But to me, making an argument is not go around and make people feel like shit. and then try and coerce them. Coercion, I just don't agree with it as a strategy for this sort of thing. That's all.
    61:09
    I've had Jersey Jack machines that have had bubbling and chipping. I've had Stern machines that have had bubbling and some chipping and stuff like that. When I'm playing Guns N' Roses, I don't know. I'm just not looking at the upper sling post inside it with a bubble or a chip. But other people are. How? How do you play that game and say, holy shit, I've got to stop what I'm doing. They're not all in it for the gameplay, Zach. What I'm saying is I'm the poster child for buying shit that doesn't matter about gameplay. And even I'm saying, yes, it is a problem. It sucks. There is no excuse for this. It's complete and utter bullshit that it happens. It is a defect. I'm the one that usually has to pony up some money out of my own goddamn pockets to make it right for customers. but even at all that being said i still smile i play the hell out of it and i do not let it ruin my experience in this industry if that's a shill then i'll wear it proudly on my shirt it's not that's not that's not shilling one might suspect perhaps your view on this is tainted by the fact that you are a distributor and that you need to continue to sell these games how do i portray that to people that that is not really the case. Maybe don't comment on it at all. Fuck. Well, that's too late now. Yeah, it is, but just saying, sometimes silence is the right answer.
    62:37
    You know, Dennis, I'm not good. I'm good with transparency. I'm not bothered by having a conversation.
    62:43
    See, that's good. That's about as far as we need to... We've already overplayed it here. I don't know. I don't have a scientific solution to fix it. Get rid of clear. Go back to lacquer. I mean, what do you want me to say? Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing. They need to solve this. And it's affecting multiple manufacturers shows that it's something widespread. Yeah, do you not think that that's the other thing? Do you think they are willingly and knowingly doing this? Do you think this is them being tight asses? Or do you think this is a son of a bitch? Like, what is going on? We cannot figure out how to fix this. No one wants to be, you know, there's such a thing as acceptable losses. but no company is going to go around wanting people to talk about that they have poor quality. That's not a goal. That's not a positive. And how widespread do you think this really is? I dare not guess. I don't either. I don't know.
    63:33
    I have no clue. But I know it's an issue. Because the people that don't have the problem don't say anything. So it's almost impossible. I couldn't measure because I don't know how many games are being sold. If I knew of the complaints and had a total, we could math out a percentage without having the feedback of those that don't have the problem. But because we don't know how many of these games are out there, it just doesn't work. We're missing too many variables to solve it on our end. So, yeah, we can only imagine what they're probably going through trying to figure out as well. Whew. A little controversial pinball market trends this week. Let's transfer right over to the end of the week. Buy, buy, buy! What can I tell people to buy, buy, buy? I thought this was a darn good deal of the week, right out of Prairie Village, Kansas.
    64:22
    Prairie Village. I applied for a job there once. How close are you to Prairie Village? Oh, it's about a 15, 20 minute drive. Oh, wow, so it's close. Do you know Mad Max Dad? I think so. Unfortunately, I don't always know the name associated with the handle on inside. Yeah, they've got a No Fear. that they just listed. Actually, they just listed. Yeah, I know who this is. Yes, I do. Yeah, I have the same difficulty, Dennis, with identifying like Mad Max. Yeah, I just, I don't. It might be a great friend of mine and I don't know. I don't think about it that way. Regardless, if I do know you out there, love you. But they've got a really nice, no fear up for sale that they applied or previous owner applied new cabinet decals to. Looks really, really good. Inserts in the play field look very, very nice. Oftentimes, especially this title, Dennis, you'll see either Mylar that was down that's bubbly, or you'll see actually lifted inserts. On this, there's a lot of arrows and stuff they lift up on those tips. You don't see any of that. They've got an expansive amount of pictures, 80-plus photos on a Google Drive for you. Everything works well. It's in the garage, so you can load that thing up easily. $3,100? Buy, buy, buy! I like No Fear. I think it's a really fun, good, fast, flowy game. I think it's underappreciated the theme just really kills it but when you go look at these pictures the LED job is really nice this person knows how to take care of their pinball machines and if you ever want to know fear there's no way I'd be buying a different one this is a solid game and a game that I designate this week's deal of the week bye bye bye indeed also selfishly I do have a deal of the week an X-Files that Greg Bone backed out of because that's what Greg Bone does.
    66:12
    Greg. X-Files, home use only. Part of the reason I fucking picked it up on trade was for him. But I've got it at $3,400.
    66:22
    And to find one in this condition, good luck finding one. Good luck finding one for about $3,000, much less $3,400 for the nicest one that I've seen in person. So bye, bye, bye. and we'll give you a little deal of the hot for the road that's a fun house that's not the title fun house that's a fine enough game this one's coming from redneck nation that's the user id on pin side port st lucia florida hold up west palm beach is no redneck nation that i know of um but they've got a fun house excellent condition home use only environment no children and no smoke i've never seen no children i do like that i do no children so it doesn't have greased up but you know cheesy fingers prints on it my niece one time went down to my game room and she stuck stickers all over my star trek oh thank god for cab decals instead of direct print I was just like, oh, this is cute.
    67:32
    Unicorns are everywhere. Made you cringe a little bit, didn't it? And then all of a sudden in the corner of the room, your roommate's giggling.
    67:39
    I thought it was her. So I'm not arguing, Dennis, that this game is nice. It's not been refurbed at all. They say it's in original new condition. Original new condition. Looks like it just came out of the box. if anybody's played this i'd find out i'd find plenty of stuff that's been dinged and hit up but it does look nice in the photos they did not allude to the chrome job that's been done on it so it has a full chrome job um which is not original so okay for what it is uh my problem is the price looks nice chrome all of that even if it's home use only dennis $14,000? No! Wow.
    68:22
    Sell, sell, sell! No! A fully restored with brand new playfield, brand new everything is going to run you about $10,000.
    68:33
    Not $14,000. No. No! I'm sorry, Redneck Nation. That is a get the fuck out of here! That's what that is. No thank you. bring it down to 10 grand where it needs to be you'll be able to sell this and it's so strange too because the same individual looks like they're all floating damn near all of their collection and they have some nice price pins in there Star Wars comic art premium kind of hard to get right now $7,000 oboe that's a good price Willy Wonka CE $11,000 oboe that's a decent price so they know what they're doing but not with this pinball machine unless I'm missing something but I don't think I am and the pictures aren't very good, so you can't see if it's mylar, so the originality of that play field, you don't know how well that's done. Sell, sell, sell. Nope. Sell, sell, sell indeed. And that was your pinball show.
    69:25
    Pinball controversy sells. Trends. Bye, bye, bye. Let's close up shop this week. Hopefully some weird hippie doesn't show up, Dennis, and catch you on your way out. Where can they catch you between now and then? You can always email eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or go to eclecticgamers.com if you want to see about the other pinball podcast I do. Absolutely. As well as emailing Dennis or myself at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. I'm serious, y'all. Free Star Wars Ellie Topper. And it's easy. It's only going to take you like 10 minutes at the tattoo parlor. Come on. Don't do it. And if it's well enough done, I'll even pay for the tattoo. Don't do it. You'll have to sign some forms here and there saying that I'm not liable. but you'll get your topper. Bye, bye, bye! Also, you can follow me at Straight Down the Middle of YouTube Series talking about all things entertainment and fun, including pinball, at sdtmpinball at gmail.com if you want to email me. We do have some upcoming episodes, like a Big Lebowski review that is in edit right now, as well as a follow-up this or that Dennis Crease likes, and we did discuss you, Dennis, in that upcoming episode.
    70:40
    Well, maybe I'll listen. maybe you won't maybe you never know you have to watch us we're lovely people to see and if you're ready to buy a brand new pinball machine or sometimes you use pinball machines or an escalator stair climbing hand truck reach out to flipping out pinball nicole and i will be happy to provide service for you we have a lot of new in stock right now so it's holiday season you guys let's get you a pinball machine you can hold it until the holidays or give it early to the family we We've got Batman 66 Premiums in stock. Avengers Pro is in stock. Those are two hot titles. Deadpool Pro, hot title. That is in stock. Hot Wheels is in stock. Star Wars Comic Pro, those are hard to get. I have one left in stock. And we just got a new shipment palette of the Medieval Madness accessories. So if you want to doll up your remake Medieval Madness with that new King of Pain topper, we got it. RGB kit, got it. Extended display, we've got you covered. But get them before they are gone. You can go to FlippinOutPinball.com, email me at Zach, Z-A-C-H, at FlippinOutPinball.com, or call me, 812-457-9711. This has been a really epic week for the Pinball Network, and we appreciate all of the providers here for supporting and creating some of the funnest stuff in the pinball industry with regard to podcasts, streaming, videos, etc. What do we got coming up this week? I don't think we have a Silver Ball Chronicles quite yet. we still got a couple weeks for that we might get a midweek show we certainly will get another pinball podcast, Joel over there interviewed the missus again people enjoy those Orby did tell me he is working on his next episode top three with Orby we heard from Lil Flipper last week and her take on GNR god I love that little shit we got a lot of fun stuff follow us on Facebook, follow us on Twitch and everywhere else. Dennis and I are still working hard behind the scenes to offer even more stuff at the end of the year here. So stay tuned for that. Going to go watch some football now, Dennis? In a few hours, yeah. Go Chiefs? That's your team, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. Go Colts, even though you guys kind of suck. For Dennis Creasel, I'm Zachary Minney. Remember, get yourself a $14,000 hot dog. And always practice safe pinball. And you can mile our up, but tattoo that ass up. So long, everybody. I'd be looking at you on that butt cheek all the time.
    73:09
    I'm going to clap that cheek. Bye, bye, bye. I want to see somebody really get one on their chest with a pocket.
    73:19
    And you peeking out of it. That's what I want. I would give the Elvira topper for that one. Do you think anybody's really going to do that? God, I hope not. That would be so stupid. I think they might. There's some weird fucking tattoo people out there that don't care. There are some weird people in this hobby. It scares me sometimes. It should. They are terrifying. Yeah, I knew you'd think that was a horrible idea. It is. It's really bad. I know. It's a terrible idea. I don't think anybody will do it, but... Probably not. Maybe the logo, but... Oh, God. That's so commercial. It's so... Going around and getting people's portraits, like, not... You know, like, unimportant people. That's really... That's what's even funnier. It's so sad.
    74:04
    How do you explain that to people? This is a tattoo of Zach. Who's Zach? Well, he's my favorite distributor.
    74:11
    What a treat. I'm so proud of you. One of my favorite pinball podcasters. He wasn't getting laid before. This really is... If I was married to someone and they came in and they had your face tattooed on them... I would divorce them. I would divorce her immediately. I know you would. We're done. We're done, baby. We're done.