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Episode 337: Thank You, Barry Oursler

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·30m 36s·analyzed·Feb 26, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.042

TL;DR

Tribute to legendary designer Barry Oursler, who died four days after this final interview about his return to pinball design.

Summary

Jeff Teolis interviews legendary pinball designer Barry Oursler on February 17th, just four days before Oursler's unexpected death from cancer on February 21st. The interview covers Oursler's recent hiring by American Pinball after the collapse of Deep Root Pinball, his 26-year absence from commercial game design, his legendary catalog of games from 1979-1996, and his excitement about returning to design. Teolis frames the episode as a tribute and calls for community support via a GoFundMe memorial fund for Oursler's family.

Key Claims

  • Barry Oursler was hired by American Pinball in mid-February 2023 after Deep Root Pinball collapsed and laid off all staff

    high confidence · Oursler states directly to Teolis during the interview that Deep Root laid everybody off, the SEC boarded up the company, and he was subsequently hired by American Pinball through conversations with Dennis Nordman and David Fix

  • Oursler's last commercial pinball design was Junkyard in 1996 — a 26-year gap since his previous release

    high confidence · Teolis repeatedly references '26 years,' 'It had been 26 years,' and 'That was 1996' when discussing Oursler's last published game. Oursler confirms he owns a Junkyard machine at home.

  • Oursler was working on six games at Deep Root including titles such as Who, Food Truck, Goonies, and Black Hole remake

    high confidence · Oursler states: 'I was working on a Who game... Food Truck which was getting ready to build up the sample games... I was working on Goonies... Robert wanted to do a remake of Black Hole... I had like a half a dozen games I was working on'

  • Deep Root's pin bar feature was overly ambitious and potentially problematic for all game designs

    medium confidence · Oursler discusses pin bar implementation: 'Pretty much it was [on all games]. I mean, I don't know what they would do if a thing did break down in the middle of the game... sometimes you should get a game out, build a game, and then start adding all the special features later on a little at a time instead of trying to put 10 pounds in a 5-pound box'

  • Highway Pinball obtained a license for Queen Pinball and the backers (who own Pinball Brothers) bought out Andrew Highway

    high confidence · Oursler: 'They had the license for it, yeah. I mean, it's basically the same people. They just bought Andrew Highway out because they were his backers, the people that own Pinball Brothers. So they just basically took over the company and changed the name.'

  • Oursler designed an upper playfield feature for Queen Pinball with Freddie Mercury rising from under the playfield with a microphone during certain songs

    high confidence · Oursler describes: 'I had a shot on there where you make certain shots, and there was like a tube in the play field, and Freddie Mercury would rise up with the microphone from under the play field... During certain songs and stuff.'

Notable Quotes

  • “It had been 26 years... We thought we were going to see one with Highway Pinball. That didn't happen. We thought we would see several from Deep Root. That didn't happen.”

    Jeff Teolis @ opening — Establishes the tragic context of Oursler's long absence from game design and repeated false starts before his death

  • “Things were kind of falling apart over at Deep Root. They laid everybody off over there. The SEC basically boarded up the company, and nobody can get into the building to get our personal stuff.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~6:30 — Describes the collapse of Deep Root and regulatory involvement, confirming the company's severe dysfunction

  • “Sometimes you should get a game out, build a game, and then start adding all the special features later on a little at a time instead of trying to put 10 pounds in a 5-pound box.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~12:00 — Oursler's candid critique of Deep Root's overambitious pin bar feature as a potential strategic error

  • “I think they kept a lot of my ideas and then added other stuff into it... They just bought Andrew Highway out because they were his backers, the people that own Pinball Brothers.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~26:00 — Confirms that Pinball Brothers' backers acquired Highway Pinball and Queen license from Andrew Highway

  • “I had a shot on there where you make certain shots, and there was like a tube in the play field, and Freddie Mercury would rise up with the microphone from under the play field.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~27:30 — Reveals ambitious, never-realized feature for Queen Pinball showing Oursler's creative vision during the Highway era

  • “I'm hoping this is the last of these tribute episodes for a while. Not that I don't mind doing it. I just don't want to lose anybody else. We have had a tough, tough year.”

    Jeff Teolis @ opening — References recent losses in the pinball community (Alan, Mark Mendeltort of Marco Specialties, Lyman Sheets) and emotional toll on the community

  • “You'll feel good, they'll feel good and since we really don't know when our time is going to be called I can tell you first hand as sad as I am to lose Barry I am very grateful that I was able to talk with him just four days prior.”

Entities

Barry OurslerpersonJeff TeolispersonAmerican PinballcompanyDeep Root PinballcompanyHighway Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball collapsed with SEC involvement, boarded building, staff unable to retrieve personal belongings

    high · Oursler: 'Things were kind of falling apart over at Deep Root. They laid everybody off over there. The SEC basically boarded up the company, and nobody can get into the building to get our personal stuff.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival upcoming with Barry Oursler as guest speaker; first festival since 2019; intended to be platform for community to hear about American Pinball projects

    medium · Oursler: 'Yes, I'll definitely be there. I'll be there Friday and Saturday.' Teolis: 'it's been since 2019, since Texas Pinball Festival'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pinball community has experienced multiple significant losses recently (Alan, Mark Mendeltort of Marco Specialties, Lyman Sheets, Barry Oursler); Teolis expresses hope this tribute series ends

    high · Teolis: 'I'm hoping this is the last of these tribute episodes for a while... We have had a tough, tough year... to all the people in New York that lost Alan, Mark Mendeltort of Marco Specialties, and recently lost Lyman Sheets'

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball community organizing GoFundMe memorial fund for Barry Oursler's family to cover medical and funeral expenses due to healthcare cost burden from cancer treatment

    high · Teolis establishes GoFundMe.com Barry Oursler Memorial Fund and emphasizes family should not worry about funeral costs alongside grief of loss

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pin bar mechanism on all Deep Root games was potentially problematic and overly ambitious, raising questions about repairability and necessity; Oursler suggests feature-light launch followed by additions would have been better strategy

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.092

0:00
Hi, my name is Jeff Teolis. This is Pinball Profile, and I wish this was a more joyous occasion. Because when I recorded it, it was. When I talked to Barry Ousler on Thursday, February 17th, he was excited. I was excited. He had just been hired by American Pinball. We were finally going to get to see a game. It had been 26 years. We thought we were going to see one with Highway Pinball. That didn't happen. We thought we would see several from Deep Root. That didn't happen. when we were going to see a new game from Barry. And American Pinball was giving him that opportunity. So we talked on February 17th. It was wonderful. In fact, we were supposed to talk a couple days earlier, but he had to reschedule because of chemo appointments that he had. These were his first chemo treatments since being let go by Deep Root, as everyone was. And I was glad he was getting the treatments. He told me he was fine, but inside it was really bothering me that, like many people, he didn't have the funds or the insurance to get these necessary treatments.
1:07
I have to tell you, where I live, I've never ever had to worry about that. I'm not saying I live in a better place. This isn't political. I just have never had to worry about, if I get sick, can I afford the medical bills? and it breaks my heart because he and others have to go through that. I wish that wasn't the case. I bring that up because it was a huge financial burden to Barry, to his family, and there's a way we can help. There's been a GoFundMe for the Barry Ousler Memorial Fund that you can help. Again, GoFundMe.com. Just type in Barry Ousler Memorial Fund. There's a link on my Pinball Profile page on Facebook, on pinballprofile.com. Fun with Bonus has it. Everyone's sharing it, as we have a good community that cared about Barry and his family. So if there's any way you can help, please, please, please.
2:04
The only worrying the family should have is that they're without Barry and not without the funds to put him to rest. Barry passed away on Monday, February 21st. Again, four days after I talked to him, and you will hear in this interview how upbeat he was. He didn't sound like a sick man. And again, cancer just has its evil way of destroying lives.

  • American Pinball plans to release two games per year and Oursler's first title will be retro-style with minimal toys, followed by a feature-rich second game

    medium confidence · Teolis mentions David Thiel saying 'the idea is maybe we can get two games out a year' and Oursler confirms: 'the first game, they want more of like a retro game. So it's going to be kind of simple, not a lot of big toys on it. The next game will be the one with everything on it.'

  • Oursler managed to get four whitewoods built during his time at Deep Root before the company collapsed

    high confidence · Oursler states: 'I managed to get four Whitewoods built. Plus, I met a wonderful woman a few years ago, and we got married two years ago. So I'm happy.'

  • Barry Oursler passed away on Monday, February 21, 2023 — four days after this interview

    high confidence · Teolis opens with: 'Barry passed away on Monday, February 21st. Again, four days after I talked to him' and provides funeral details for Friday, March 4th in San Antonio, Texas.

  • Teolis believes Oursler's incomplete game at American Pinball will be finished and released as a tribute to the designer

    medium confidence · Teolis states: 'in my heart of hearts, based on what Barry told me, I strongly, strongly believe you will see a new Barry Osler game from American Pinball. He was that close to being done... with friends like Dennis Nordman, Steve Bowden, Sophia Ryan... they're going to get this done.'

    • Jeff Teolis @ opening — Reflective statement about the value of connection and Teolis's gratitude for the timing of the final interview

  • “Junkyard, I mean, that toilet really is more meaningful... The swirling sound and the flush and air and the guy, ah.”

    Jeff Teolis @ ~37:00 — Discussion of one of Oursler's most iconic and memorable game features, highlighting his design legacy

  • “In my heart of hearts, based on what Barry told me, I strongly, strongly believe you will see a new Barry Osler game from American Pinball. He was that close to being done.”

    Jeff Teolis @ intro/outro — Teolis's hopeful prediction that Oursler's work will be completed by American Pinball as a tribute

  • “Barry, we're going to miss you, and thank you for the many wonderful games that you have created over the years.”

    Jeff Teolis @ outro — Closing tribute statement acknowledging Oursler's legacy and impact on the pinball community

    • Pinball Brothers
    company
    Dennis Nordmanperson
    David Fixperson
    Steve Bowenperson
    Sophia Ryanperson
    Andrew Highwayperson
    Lyman Sheetsperson
    Marco Specialtiescompany
    Mark Mendeltortperson
    Gorgargame
    Doctor Whogame
    Junkyardgame
    Draculagame
    Space Shuttlegame
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent
    John Borgperson
    Kathy Ourslerperson

    medium · Oursler discusses pin bar uncertainty: 'I don't know what they would do if a thing did break down in the middle of the game' and advocates for simpler approach

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Barry Oursler critiques Deep Root's pin bar feature as overambitious 'putting 10 pounds in a 5-pound box' — suggests modular feature rollout approach better than launching with all features simultaneously

    high · Oursler: 'sometimes you should get a game out, build a game, and then start adding all the special features later on a little at a time instead of trying to put 10 pounds in a 5-pound box'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Highway Pinball obtained Queen license requiring selection from specific concert live recordings only; Pinball Brothers backers bought out Andrew Highway to take over company and Queen assets

    high · Oursler: 'They had the license for it... the people that own Pinball Brothers... just bought Andrew Highway out because they were his backers... took over the company and changed the name.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Barry Oursler's design process involves laying out shots on full-scale drafting table rather than CAD to visualize complete playfield layout

    medium · Oursler: 'I try to figure out what toys I want to put on it and also the shots. Because I usually lay the shots out on a drafting table because it's hard doing it on a small screen. This way I can stand behind the table and actually see the thing full scale.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Barry Oursler hired by American Pinball after Deep Root Pinball collapse, ending 26-year absence from commercial game design

    high · Oursler confirmed hiring by David Fix and Dennis Nordman in mid-February 2023; Deep Root laid off all staff including Oursler

  • ?

    product_strategy: Deep Root's production issues left Oursler with six games in design pipeline but none completed; games included Who, Food Truck, Goonies, Black Hole remake

    high · Oursler: 'I had like a half a dozen games I was working on because I kept waiting for something to get built. So in the meantime, I just work on another game.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: American Pinball planning two games per year with Oursler's first title being retro-style with minimal toys, second being feature-rich

    medium · Oursler: 'the first game, they want more of like a retro game... The next game will be the one with everything on it.' Teolis references David Thiel statement about two games per year target.

    • 2:30
    I'm hoping this is the last of these tribute episodes for a while. Not that I don't mind doing it. I just don't want to lose anybody else. We have had a tough, tough year. to all the people in New York that lost Alan, Mark Mendeltort of Marco Specialties, and recently lost Lyman Sheets, and I think we're good for a while. But it is a reminder to live life to the fullest, to let those you know that you love, let them know that. If you haven't talked to a friend or a family member in a while, reach out, send an email, pick up the phone. you'll feel good, they'll feel good and since we really don't know when our time is going to be called I can tell you first hand as sad as I am to lose Barry I am very grateful that I was able to talk with him just four days prior and when he was in such great spirits Barry's funeral service is Friday, March 4th it's at 7pm in San Antonio, Texas at Sunset Funeral Home There will be a live stream. And again, if you can please go to the GoFundMe page, Barry Osler Memorial Fund, I know the family and the pinball community will thank you. Barry, we're going to miss you, and thank you for the many wonderful games that you have created over the years. I know how close you were to being finished this current game, and in my heart of hearts, based on what Barry told me, I strongly, strongly believe you will see a new Barry Osler game from American Pinball. He was that close to being done. You've got to figure with friends like Dennis Nordman, Steve Bowden, Sophia Ryan, all these people he knew at American Pinball, and of course the other wonderful staff, they're going to get this done. Wouldn't that be a wonderful tribute? And so, with the blessing of his wife Kathy, here is my last conversation with Barry Osler.
    4:30
    It is a pleasure today to be talking to someone that we hold dear in our hearts in the pinball community because of the wonderful designs he has given us over so many years, and we're going to be seeing a new one again. It's been 25-plus years, but I am so excited for our next guest. Barry Ousler joins us. Hi, Barry. How are you? Okay, Jeff. How are you today? Wonderful. Congratulations on the hire with American Pinball. Thank you very much. I've been looking forward to it. How did this all come about?
    4:59
    Really, things were kind of falling apart over at Deep Root. They laid everybody off over there. The SEC basically boarded up the company, and nobody can get into the building to get our personal stuff. I mean, everything is just a real mess over there. So I was talking to some people. I ended up talking to Dennis over at American Pinball, and he says they want to put together some design teams. So I gave David Fix a call and talked to him, and they said, sure, you know, come on board. and I asked if I can work from home and just send in the games and go in there to tweak the Whitewoods and tweak the production games, and they said that would be fine. Well, it's nice that you've had some familiarity with certainly Dennis Dorbin, who's there. He also was briefly at Deep Root as well, too, and I assume you know a bunch of other people there at American Pinball. Yeah, well, I know Zofia because I worked with her for a long time over at Williams, and she's one of the best engineers I ever worked with. Which games did she help you on? Let's see, I did Popeye, Dracula, Junkyard, Dirty Harry, Whodunit, Doctor Who. She did all the mechanisms on all those games. Those are legendary mechs. I mean, think about the Myst Multiball, one of the greatest in all of pinball. That time expander on Doctor Who alone is just mind-boggling. That thing's a beast. But it works great. Yeah, it does work great. And, in fact, we just saw it recently at Indisc. It's a real exciting game in tournaments. Of course, we all remember what happened at IFPA 16. You've probably since seen that, and we haven't talked since then when Daniele lost on a huge comeback to Johannes Ostermeyer at IFPA 16 on Dracula. It just proved once again that what we already knew, that was a wonderful game, and there's a lot of things you can do in that. So I assume you've seen that footage. I'm not sure. If not, I'll have to look it up. I'll get it sent to you because it's pretty awesome. And then, of course, other great mechs that you've been responsible for, the visor in Pinbot. I mean, that's pretty amazing. So I would assume with American Pinball, we're probably going to see some interesting mech, some sort of fun toy, because these are things you all did prior to 1996, and now it's 26 years later. There's a lot more you can do now. Oh, I know. You probably were working on some of these things with Deeproot, And hopefully you can bring them over some of these intellectual properties, some of these things that are certainly your own to American. Right now they own everything. And, I mean, they have to auction everything off. But I have some great designs here. Can you talk about what you working on Only the names of the games because I mean they had people come in and look at them but I was working on a Who game We had Food Truck which was getting ready to build up the sample games to go out We had all the artwork done on it. I was working on Goonies. Wow. Because that's a game everybody wanted. I mean, they had – Robert wanted to do a remake of Black Hole only with some major changes, but I can't talk about the mechanisms on that thing. And a couple other games. I had like a half a dozen games I was working on because I kept waiting for something to get built. So in the meantime, I just work on another game. It is something to hear. And Stephen Bowden, who's also at American Pinball, so it's nice to be reunited with him. He was talking about doing some of the rule designs for all these games, but it was really a hurry up and wait because here you are a designer. You had all these titles you just mentioned. You mentioned four, and who knows what else there is. And the big question, I asked even this on final round, I said, how did these games get built? I mean, we saw the Raza prototype, which was a much different machine at Houston Arcade Expo than what we saw at the Deep Six reveal, if you will, and the one that was on display at What's Brewing. That was a different game. That's the one that had the pin bar. So you've been in pinball for so long. Were you wondering how was that machine made and how are my machines going to be made? I mean, most of the games are supposed to have a pin bar. and that was their major feature they wanted to do in all the games. I wonder if that was to the company's detriment. I mean, obviously there are other issues that are much more concerning, but just the pin bar, how was that going to be repaired? If there was an error, if there was an issue, how would you play the game if that didn't work? Was it essential for all the titles that you were working on? Pretty much it was. I mean, I don't know what they would do if a thing did break down in the middle of the game or something. And, you know, I mean, sometimes you should get a game out, build a game, and then start adding all the special features later on a little at a time instead of trying to put 10 pounds in a 5-pound box at that time. So the pin bar would have been fun for sure, but really it wasn't the be-all and end-all to the game. The game, the design, the rules, that's what the pinball players are certainly looking for. And like you say, you know, you get that out and maybe tweak it. That could have maybe helped the company. I think they need a few more things to help. But it is frustrating because I know you were excited. You're there in Texas still. And it was a big move for a lot of people, Stephen Bowden included. And I'm a person who doesn't like to have regrets. I mean, if this is the path that got you to America and now, okay, great. But does it feel like some wasted years? Not really. I mean, I had a good time doing it. I managed to get four Whitewoods built. Plus, I met a wonderful woman a few years ago, and we got married two years ago. So I'm happy. There you go. That's right. Okay, that's the path then. Yeah. And American Pinball, we've seen the recent title, which was Legends of Valhalla from Scott Gullick, a recent homebrew. I don't know if you've had a chance to play the game. I haven't played it, but I've seen the pictures of it. The game is fantastic. And then, of course, Dennis Dortman is going to be working on one, and then yours. So is there a timeline? I've heard David Thicke say, you know, the idea is maybe we can get two games out a year, and I know there's supply issues, so that's obviously a big reason. And then there's even the American Dream contest where they're trying to get another homebrew, maybe mass manufactured. So what's the time frame that you've got in front of you for getting a game out? Well, the first game, they want more of like a retro game. So it's going to be kind of simple, not a lot of big toys on it. The next game will be the one with everything on it. I can only imagine what you can do now, 26 years later, after your last design and with everything that's possible now and a great build team. That's one thing you've probably heard. When you get an American pinball machine, the build quality is spectacular. I mean, no one really questions that. And that's kind of nice. I mean, it's a unique-looking cabinet for sure, but I think each title just gets better and better. So we're looking forward to that. And you get to stay from home, which is nice. Yes, I like that. You're going to be at Texas Pinball Festival, aren't you? Yes, I'll definitely be there. I'll be there Friday and Saturday. I'm sure you're going to have a lot of people want to talk to you about what's coming up, what you've done in the past, and we'll shed some light on that here. But that's going to be nice to be finally back after, wow, it's been, I can't believe it has been since 2019, since Texas Pinball Festival. I know, I miss it. Yeah, it'll be good. I look forward to seeing you there too. I was recently at InDisc. Your games were at the forefront once again. Dr. Who was in the main event for the finals. and my goodness, I don't know if you got to see some of the footage, but the time expander is a great way to get all these jackpots. But we watched all these incredible players say, you know what? It takes a lot to get that open. It takes a lot to lock a ball and then you still have to make it. Then you've got the chaos of three balls and multi-ball. But what these players were doing were doing these time loops and not just any time loops, like a hundred. And it was so much fun to watch. And you get the play field multiplier up and then get the jackpot. I mean, you can get like almost a billion points on one shot. Yeah, it was so crazy. That's something about your games. Again, we talked about Dracula, watching people do that triple stack and all the things that can happen there. One of your games, actually, I've said for years and years and years, has my all-time favorite spinner. Which one am I talking about? All-time favorite spinner?
    13:07
    I'm not sure. It's because it's so easy to rip from both flippers. and you can increase the value of the spinner by hitting the drops. Which one? Maybe Space Shuttle? Definitely Space Shuttle. Best spinner ever. That is the gold standard for me just because you can swipe those drops, you can get it up to 7,000 a spin, and maybe I ignore the other things. It's still got a great multi-ball with the locks and, of course, the center shot, and there's all kinds of interesting bonuses. I just find that just so much fun to play. And that's the main trick on there is to try and sweep that bank in one shot. Yeah, yeah, that's true. For extra points. You've given us some other interesting things, too. Now, I realize that when you gave us Time Warp, you got the leftover Disco Fever banana flippers. Yeah. Was that some sort of initiation, do you think? Who knows? Are you going to be initiated like that with American Pinball? Maybe they'll give you something like banana flippers. Who knows, you know? So then, who were you speaking to when you gave us Time Fantasy and the Snail? And quite honestly, what were you smoking? Let's be honest. That was more the artist. That was Seamus or Coughlin.
    14:18
    Yeah. Because back then, we would just design a game and give it a name and let the artist take over. We didn't really build around a theme like we do now. Okay. What was your reaction when you saw that? You went, whoa. I thought it was hilarious. I thought people would get a kick out of it. you know. Compared to some of the other things, your past with Python and stuff, I guess nothing really surprised you. Oh, yeah. He did some strange stuff. Yeah, he did for sure. He was a one of a kind person. And I loved your stories of, you know, him not exactly being on time with deadlines and all the excuses, how many times his mother or grandmother maybe passed away. And that was why things were right. And you wait to the last couple of weeks to get something finished, then you basically have to take what he had. Yeah. Wow. He'd be out on safari with National Geographic, or his mother died, or this or that. Nobody knew where he was. His mother couldn't find him. His wife couldn't find him. A little easier to find nowadays with the internet and Zoom and things like that so a little harder to hide Yeah really I got to tell you when I look at your great catalog of games there are a couple of tournament darlings that a lot of people might not really know but when I come across them, I'm obsessed and actually want to get these secondhand because there's just something unique about them. It was a few years ago at InDisc. They had Starlight, and I had never played that before, but was fascinated by the machine, quickly learned it for the tournament. There's a lot in there. I know. I don't know if you know, but I did a game back in 79 called Laser Ball. Yep. And originally that was a bowling theme, but we ended up changing it to Laser Ball. But down the road, they needed a game right away. So I took Laser Ball and shrunk it down to a normal-sized game from a wide body and basically used the same layout except everything was compacted in there and turned it into Starlight. But what a fun game. Oh, yeah, it's got a lot of good shots in there. You know, when we talk about tournament darlings, there's another game of yours that I hardly ever see, and I saw it once at a tournament. I would love to own this game.
    16:24
    Cosmic Gunfight. What a great game. That was another game that had its name changed. What was it? Originally, it was called Dragonfly, and if you go to the IPDB website, at the bottom, there's some back glass artwork from the original game. We had backglasses done for it in different colors.
    16:43
    The character kind of looks like a silver surfer, sort of, only with dragonfly wings. But then, I guess, all the space stuff started coming out around that time, so we decided to make it like, you know, cowboys in space. They're riding on these rocket-powered horses having shootouts. It worked whatever you did because the game is just so much fun. I remember seeing that at the NYC PC, and I think Papa tried to sell one of theirs, and when they sold off their games, I know I put an offer into that because, yeah, great game. Good stuff. I think it had five bumpers, if I'm not mistaken. I think it had almost like two little play fields, like a three-lane one and a two-lane one off on the other side. As a designer, is that the first thing you're looking for? Okay, what are the shots? I don't know what the first thing, when you're looking at whether it's CAD, a whitewood, whatever design you're using. Nowadays, I try and come up with a theme. I mean, either an original theme or if it's going to be a movie theme or a music theme, you know, just study up on that. Otherwise, yeah, I try to figure out what, I guess, toys I want to put on it and also the shots. Because I usually lay the shots out on a drafting table because it's hard doing it on a small screen. This way I can stand behind the table and actually see the thing full scale as I'm drawing them in there. When I see a machine for the first time, I look at the bottom flippers. If it's a two-flipper game, and I look and I say, okay, how many shots are on that flipper? Shots of significance, you know. Maybe there's a couple of stand-ups in front of lanes on both sides of the lanes. I don't really consider those necessarily shots. They're more when you have one left, maybe then you go for it type of thing, but as opposed to something that's obvious like an orbit or a ramp, a scoop, things like that. Is that something you're conscious of, looking at the number of shots from each flipper? Yeah, usually, and then sometimes you want to put a side ramp, so you have to have a third flipper or a fourth flipper. It depends, you know, on the actual game, because I'll try to get, like, whatever the main feature in the game is going to be and put that on, like on Doctor Who, put the time expander in and then build around it. You know, or if it's off in the corner, you know, figure out what all the other shots and ramps are going to be, but try to get the main feature in the first. So on Doctor Who, the upper flipper, the main shot is certainly the ramp that gives you the playfield multiplier. That's kind of the only thing you really want to go. I know you can get it into the pops there, and I guess you could even hit the time expander if you hit early. But when you look at an upper flipper, there are obviously less shots you can make. But I think the goal, and correct me if I'm wrong, is at least more than one shot, so it's not repeatable. Right. That was probably the smoothest side flipper shot in any game. In fact, it was so easy we had to put a diverter in there because people could make it 50, 60 times in a row without stopping. Is that why there was the diverter after so many shots? Yeah, because we limited it to whatever 10, and then you get a special feature, and then the ball would just come back to the flipper, but you could start it over again. Yeah, it's got a great flow, and once you find it, It's so exciting to hit that. Love Dr. Who. Yeah. You just talked about music pins, you know, whether you're designing for a movie, a TV show, or maybe a music pin. You said you were working on the Who for Deep Root. Right. If we even go back, your highway days, you were working on Queen Pinball. Now, I know there is a Queen Pinball prototype out there that we might see down the road. There's nothing in it. It really is just a cabinet and a box of lights. There's nothing underneath. There's no code. or it's just something to look at. Right. But I've always wondered what your queen pinball machine would have been like for Highway. Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of nice features on it, but I think they might have changed some of it when David took over over there because he had like their in-house designer who always has his own ideas. So I think they kept a lot of my ideas and then added other stuff into it, but I haven't actually seen much of it except for the pictures. Were there a lot of songs in there? How much were you involved with the rules or was it all just design? 10 or 12 songs, but they had to be live ones from only certain concerts we had to pick from. That was all they allowed, the licensing. So they did, in fact, get the license, Highway for Queen. Right. They had the license for it, yeah. I mean, it's basically the same people. They just bought Andrew Highway out because they were his backers, the people that own Pinball Brothers. So they just basically took over the company and changed the name. So we'll see what Pinball Brothers does now that they've taken over the assets, I guess, if you will, of Highway. So, yeah, that'll be something to see. It's certainly going to be different than the one that you had designed. That's totally something completely different, isn't it? Yeah, I'm sure there'll be a lot of my stuff in there, but I'm sure there'll be some changes. But I had like a guitar for an upper play field with certain shots. Oh, they had that, yeah.
    21:35
    I had other stuff, too. They did take out. I had a shot on there where you make certain shots, and there was like a tube in the play field, and Freddie Mercury would rise up with the microphone from under the play field. Wow. During certain songs and stuff. That would have been cool. Your designs moving forward, we can pretty much assume they're going to be standard size, not wide body or anything like that, nothing unique. Are you a fan of the upper playfields? You know, a lot of your older games had those kind of designs. I think of Grand Lizard and Scorpion, not necessarily upper playfields, but upper areas. What are your thoughts on things like that? If it's done right, I guess it depends on the game and the theme, because I know Goonies had a small upper playfield on it and a lower playfield, so I had three levels. Wow. Yeah. I find lower playfields tough to really nail. They add to the bill of materials, no question about it. Right. And is there a lot of excitement down there? I don't know too many games, if I'm being honest, and this is just my simple opinion. Right. I don't know too many games where I'm like, wow, it's great to get down there. I think the last one I thought was pretty cool was Monsters, actually, by John Borg. I thought he did a good job with that. Yeah, that was a pretty good game. Yeah. What are your thoughts about lower playfield? We talked earlier about black hole and things like that. Well, that's significant because of how that builds your bonus. Right. But I think upper play fields are better because when you have a lower play field it means you got to have a window and then you got alignment problems with the ball hitting on the edges of the window It got to be in there perfectly Yeah Upper seems to be easier. Right, a lot easier. It depends on the game, you know. I mean, in the old games, they would basically have a dead area under there, so maybe you might be able to put a loop shot because there would be a big hole in the back end of the lower play field for the mechanisms to hang down. Okay. So you'd lose a lot of real estate on the main board. Yeah. I think of your old game, Jungle Lord, and I like that for a lot of reasons. The upper playfield was certainly significant, getting the ABCD, but really tough to nail. I mean, it's kind of, I always felt you were at the mercy of how the plunger was on that ABCD. On that little mini playfield on the corner? Yeah, the little bagatelle. Yeah. But the thing that stands out the most for me with Jungle Lord, I am a big fan, and maybe you'll bring this back. Who knows? I like those unique magna saves that are timed and it can kind of throw the ball as opposed to a hard magnet save like in Black Knight where it just stops dead. You can kind of hold it for as long as you want to give it a bit of a sling. I think I did it on Solar Fire too. That way if it's going out, just give it a quick pulse and you still have a couple extra saves left instead of wasting it on one shot. I love those. Yeah. I'd love to see that again. Do what you want. Right. If you make a mistake, it's your fault. It is your fault, yeah. And you can build up the MagnaSave, and you can hold it for as long as you need or as little as you want. I loved it. You've given us a lot of unique things. I mean, the first ever talking pinball machine with Gorgar.
    24:32
    We can do a lot more speech now, can't we? Oh, yeah. I got lucky with that one because I had the game ready, and they happened to have speech developed at the same time. So we threw them together, and it worked out great. Right place at the right time, I guess. Yeah, we had that thing up on pedestals at the show, and we had these huge speakers cranked up, and Stern's booth was like next to ours, and Sam Stern comes over. Can you turn it down? That heartbeat's drowning out our games over here. And the speech on the game, you know, me go guard, me got you, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump. And, I mean, that's all you can hear across the whole show floor. But what a great attract mode. Yeah. The games now, when you're making them, are they more for the homeowner, or are they more for arcades or somewhere in the middle? I think somewhere in the middle because now there's more people collecting games and they're just buying them outright for their houses. They've got money to spend because there's not a lot of arcades yet. They're coming back, but we're trying to make it so anybody can enjoy it. And then plus we'll start out with a simple game, but then add layers for all the different levels of rules for people that are more professional, but try and make it simple enough so anybody can walk up and play, though. At least that's the way I do my stuff. Barry, where do you feel on having the perhaps best toilet in pinball? I mean, there are others that have tried, Austin Powers and South Park, but junkyard, I mean, that toilet really is more meaningful.
    25:58
    I know. The swirling sound and the flush and air and the guy, ah. I've got a junkyard in my game room. Oh, nice. Well, that's the last machine we've seen from you. That was 1996. and I know you've been itching to get things out, whether it was with Highway or Deep Root and now American Pinball. So I can only imagine what you've been thinking for the last 26 years. Yeah, my wife wanted it again. It's her favorite game, so I bought it. Junkyard. Yeah, I've got three games. I've got Junkyard, Dirty Harry, and Dracula at home right now. Boy, some of your finest there. Dirty Harry was also a big one at Indisc as well. And, again, another, you know, we talk about Doctor Who, but different side for the upper flipper. That's a nice repeatable shot. It certainly, you feel good when you hit it because it's such a high ramp. Oh, yeah, especially when you get the jackpots. Oh, exactly. That's everything. But loading the gun and everything, I think I once heard a story, and forgive me if I'm wrong. Ed, I'm sure, will text me if I'm wrong, but I thought I heard Ed had to bring something back from Chicago to Toronto, and it was something like the gun trigger for Dirty Harry, whether it was that game or I guess it could have been Lethal Weapon 3. Who knows what it was? Whatever, some sort of gun trigger. I think even Terminator had them too, didn't they? Yeah, a lot of games. I think Indiana Jones had a gun on it. The Shadow, I think, did. So he had to bring these back to Canada. I don't know whether it was a carry-on or not, but can you imagine them screening that and they see these metal guns and have to explain that story? That's fun. so tpf is next up for you and uh what else can we expect there's speculation on what your next game will be and uh i'm just going to put it out there i think it's a fourth game in the pinbot series the son of pinbot ha ha hey who knows who knows there's been there's a lot of things people wanted me to do they want another amusement park game some people want another pinbot i'm getting people that want another Bad Cats. Bad Cats, another incredibly underrated game. We have that in our league at the TCPL, and I always enjoy playing that. Yeah, maybe it's a sequel to Cyclone or Hurricane. It's quite the legacy, and I'm glad to see it's going to continue with your new titles. I know you've been working hard, and now you found a company that is definitely going to manufacture them, so that's exciting. Yeah, the last two were strikeouts. Yeah, but like you said, you met your wife, so there are some good things to come about. Oh, yeah. We're happy. We've got three dogs and two cats. Perfect. Nice backyard. That's great. And we saw not too long ago on social media, we certainly care about you, the person. There were some health scares originally with COVID, and of course, you've been battling cancer for quite some time. It's been almost 10 years. How are you doing, Barry? Yeah, I had a little bit of a relapse the last few months because when I lost my job at Deep Root, they just abruptly shut down. I had no insurance for several months, so I couldn't go and get my treatments. So I was in the hospital for like nine days in December, and I lost about 30 pounds. Yikes. Yeah, so now I've been starting this whole new regimen of treatments because Medicare is covering it now. Okay. Well, I'm glad to hear you're on the mend. Yeah. And we will all see you at Texas Pinball Festival and excited to see what's going to be coming with American Pinball. Very glad you're back in it and appreciate you talking to us once again. Oh, yeah. I can't wait. It's going to be a crazy ride. Anything else we missed that you'd like to mention?
    29:37
    I love pinball. I just think of the turnaround in which you had to make games back in the day. and here you are, like you say, you've been trying to get stuff out with Highway, with Deep Root, and now you will be able to with American. You've got a little more time to work nowadays, I guess. Yeah, it's working out good so far. Good, good, good. Okay, Barry, I'll let you go. Okay, Jeff, if you need anything else, just let me know. Give me a call. Okay, thank you very much, Barry. All right, thank you, Jeff. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. All your subscriptions, past episodes, and more were on Twitter and Instagram and on Facebook. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. I'm Jeff Teolas.
    30:20
    Perfect. All right. Thank you. I'm going to get that out very soon. Okay. Anything else you need? No, that's good. I'll see you in Texas. I'll make sure to stop by. I can't wait. If you can't find me, just text me or call me because I'll be there somewhere. Yeah, I will. All right. Take care, Jeff. Thanks, Barry. Bye-bye.