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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 42: Knull Has Nothing On Us

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 19m·held·Sep 23, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.040

TL;DR

Rick and Morty analysis plus speculation on Stern's anniversary edition strategy vs. traditional vaults.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 42 features hosts Joel, Tom, and Travis discussing Rick and Morty pinball in depth, noting its clunky layout but excellent code, humor, and unique features like the pulsing magnet save. They pivot to analyzing Stern's anniversary edition strategy (Jurassic Park 30th, Elvira 40th) and speculate on future anniversary releases (Godzilla 70th) versus traditional vaults, debating whether Stern should create new art packages for returning games to maximize revenue. The episode also touches on Stranger Things vault rumors and disappointment with Stern's lack of sequel games for major franchises.

Key Claims

  • Rick and Morty is a clunky layout game but has excellent code, fun modes, and unique mechanics like the pulsing magnet save that make it engaging once learned

    high confidence · Joel, Tom, and Travis all share positive impressions based on recent extended play; Joel explicitly states the game has gotten a bad rap but is 'really fun' when given time

  • Games with poor initial accessibility (challenging shots, brutal layouts) like Rick and Morty, Turtles, and Star Wars suffer on location because casual players drain quickly and don't discover the code

    high confidence · Joel articulates this as a general industry issue: 'if you put a dollar into the game and you drain very quick it doesn't matter how great the game is'

  • Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary edition just released and plays identically to the LE, differing only in powder coat and art

    high confidence · Travis owns the 30th; Joel and Tom confirm it plays the same as LE; Joel jokes 'It plays just like Jurassic Park LE. Go figure.'

  • Jersey Jack Pinball released CE (Collector's Edition) accessories for Godfather with silver instead of gold finishes to non-CE owners

    high confidence · Joel describes the JJP strategy: 'instead of two guys shooting at you with coils, you only get one' and accessories are sold as packages to distributors

  • Stern is likely to do more anniversary editions (like Godzilla 70th next year) rather than straight vaults going forward

    medium confidence · Joel speculates: 'if you're going to do it for Elvira and Jurassic Park, why not do it for one of your biggest selling games'; Travis and Joel agree this seems obvious strategy

  • Stranger Things premium is rumored as one of the most limited editions currently available due to its limited original run

    medium confidence · Travis states: 'I would venture to say that the premium is probably actually the most limited edition out there right now' regarding Stranger Things

  • Rick and Morty's humor and call-outs featuring Justin Rowland are a major strength, but Rowland likely won't return for new code updates

Notable Quotes

  • “Imagine the game working.”

    Joel @ early episode — Humorous comment about Rick and Morty improving once operational, reflecting broader operator/location concerns about game maintenance

  • “The humor is, that's something, the more that I get into pinball, the games that typically draw me back are the ones that are going to make me laugh or the ones that I know are just fun.”

    Joel @ mid-episode — Articulates a key player motivation: humor and fun factor as primary engagement drivers beyond mechanical complexity

  • “The dimensions are the fact that as you're playing the game, dimensions completely change the game, whether it's the lighting or the sound or how things score or, like, ramps don't work or this doesn't work, and it just makes everything feel different every time you play.”

    Joel @ Rick and Morty analysis — Describes a key design feature (dimensional mode variations) that addresses game longevity and replayability concerns

  • “If you're going to do it for Elvira and Jurassic Park, why not do it for one of your biggest selling games, if not your biggest selling game of all time?”

    Joel @ Godzilla anniversary speculation — Logical inference about Stern's likely strategy to capitalize on major IP anniversaries with new limited editions

  • “Hell yes, it's a cash grab. They're a business. Why would you not do that? They need to make money. They need to pay employees.”

    Joel @ Jurassic Park 30th discussion — Defends Stern's anniversary edition strategy as legitimate business practice; reframes 'cash grab' as positive

  • “It's not Halloween, Joel. Well, you don't, there's nothing in your, you know, your life contract if I have to own a spooky game.”

    Tom @ Rick and Morty ownership discussion — Tom humorously explains why he keeps Rick and Morty despite general Spooky skepticism

  • “My wife was real into the idea of getting a puppy. And even though our son is three and still not sleeping through the night consistently, apparently this is the right time to add a puppy into our life.”

Entities

Rick and MortygameVenomgameJurassic Park 30th AnniversarygameGodfather (Jersey Jack Pinball)gameStranger ThingsgameGodzillagameAvengers

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Anniversary edition strategy driving collector behavior: Travis upgraded from JP Premium to JP 30th Edition when wife Monica supported purchase, demonstrating effective marketing/FOMO for cosmetic variants

    medium · Travis: 'I planned on getting a Jurassic Park Premium... when I realized that the 30th was coming out, I just waited' and 'you don't say no to Monica when she gets pinball'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Avengers Pro becoming normalized tournament setup after LE owners disabled premium features (subway), standardizing around Pro version for fairness

    medium · Travis explains converting Avengers LE to Pro by disabling subway because 'you hardly ever run into it in tournaments' and it plays 'a lot more difficult' as Pro

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Rick and Morty suffers from 'clunky' layout that deters location/casual players despite excellent code and humor; broader industry issue where difficult-to-access games fail on location despite quality

    high · Joel articulates: 'if you put a dollar into the game and you drain very quick it doesn't matter how great the game is you're going to be like this game sucks'; applies to Turtles, Star Wars, Rick and Morty

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Rick and Morty's pulsing magnet save and pop bumper at sling represent unique mechanical innovations that differentiate from standard Spooky designs and increase player appeal

    high · Joel praises 'This, it's like it's a pulse... you get a little more control' and 'the pop bumper down at the sling is awesome. It's really fun. I would love to see more unique stuff like that'

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.418

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. All right. Wow, it has been a long time. It has been a long time, but we are back. We are back. We're finally able to record. So I hope everybody's good to go. Tom, what are you drinking? Are you got your round two? A little Crystal Light lemonade thing. That's really going to get you going. You ready? You're pumped? Yeah, sure.
0:37
Travis, are you good? What are you drinking? You ready? You revved up? Yeah, I've got my honey green tea in my Mario Brothers coffee cup because I'm a man child. Well, look at you. All right. I'm hitting the button. We're three guys like the Johnson. So we came up with a class our day. We're going back down the pumpkin hall. We call ourselves Triple Three. We're Triple Three.
1:16
I'm not lying, but I'm pretty sure Travis was yawning easily half of that song. Like, your mouth opened in the middle, and I was surprised you were done by the end of the song. I was not yawning. I was doing vocal warm-ups. That's what that was. Just one open mouth the whole time. But, all right. Well, we are here. It is episode 42. We're cruising right along. First and foremost, we are so sorry, listeners, for the delay. It has, what is it? We recorded a while ago. Like, it was at least a month ago. And why were we delayed? Yeah. Well, for, like, two, it was, like, for the first two weeks after we released, there was like no news. There was nothing. We were still waiting on Venom. There was nothing. So we were talking and we're like, is it worth recording? There really wasn't anything. There really wasn't anything to talk about. So we're like, ah, we'll give it another week. You two sat me down.
2:10
What? Did we? Tom wanted to record. No, no, no. I did not shoot Tom down. That's true. It was Joel. We were supposed to record a week and a half ago and Joel's like, you know, I live a busy life here. I have Joel with friends. I've got to interview Keith Alwyn or somebody.

high confidence · Joel praises the call-outs and specifically mentions 'I don't think he's going to be coming back to do any callouts for the new code update'

  • Stranger Things vault rumors point to a big opening in November, suggesting potential re-release timing

    medium confidence · Joel notes: 'there's rumors, right, that there's a big opening in November. So people are like, this would be the opportunity for Stern to do a vault.'

  • Pinball industry has underutilized sequels and multi-season game strategies compared to other entertainment franchises

    medium confidence · Travis questions why 'pinball has shied away from doing sequels or doing huge themes in segments' and mentions Harry Potter as an example

  • The Rick and Morty ball save mechanism (pulsing magnet) is faster and more controllable than similar features on other Spooky games like Halloween

    high confidence · Joel compares it favorably: 'as you hold the ball down or the button down, it pulses the magnet, and you get a little more control' vs. Halloween's complete stop mechanism

    • Joel @ opening segment — Explains the month-long recording delay; reflects on household decision-making dynamics with humor

  • “It doesn't, to me, whenever I play it, it doesn't feel like a spooky, if that makes sense. It just, it feels like it's kind of its own thing.”

    Travis @ Rick and Morty analysis — Positive critique acknowledging Rick and Morty breaks Spooky design patterns; sets it apart from typical Spooky releases

  • “The one thing I've never understood is why pinball has shied away from doing sequels or doing huge themes in segments.”

    Travis @ ending speculation — Identifies a gap in pinball game design strategy; questions lack of multi-season/sequel approach for major franchises

  • “It's going to be tough in the future because so many games are being produced nowadays that I think it's going to be tough just to outright vault things.”

    Travis @ vault discussion — Contextualizes market saturation and production volume as limiting factors for traditional vault strategy

    • game
    Spider-Man Vault Editiongame
    Joelperson
    Tomperson
    Travisperson
    Justin Rowlandperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    District 82 Summer Seriesevent
    IFPA rewardsprogram
    Pinball Nerds Podcast / Poor Man's Pinball Networkorganization
    Monicaperson
    Elvira 40th Anniversarygame
    Harry Pottergame
    Chrisperson
    Turtles (TMNT)game
    Star Warsgame

    market_signal: Pinball industry underutilizing sequels and multi-season strategy despite success in other entertainment franchises; hosts question why major IPs like Harry Potter get single games instead of ongoing series

    medium · Travis: 'The one thing I've never understood is why pinball has shied away from doing sequels or doing huge themes in segments'; mentions Harry Potter as missed opportunity

  • $

    market_signal: Production volume saturation may make traditional vaults unsustainable; future re-releases will likely require new art/cosmetics (anniversary editions) to justify separate SKUs

    medium · Travis: 'It's going to be tough in the future because so many games are being produced nowadays that I think it's going to be tough just to outright vault things'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Rick and Morty voice actor Justin Rowland unlikely to return for future code updates, limiting update potential for audio/call-out enhancements

    medium · Joel: 'I don't think he's going to be coming back to do any callouts for the new code update or anything'; implies health, availability, or other constraint

  • $

    market_signal: Anniversary editions (Jurassic Park 30th) command premium pricing despite playing identically to existing LE versions, indicating market acceptance of cosmetic differentiation for revenue generation

    high · Travis bought 30th despite having access to LE; hosts discuss this as legitimate business strategy; Joel defends as necessary for company sustainability

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pinball offering CE accessories (different finishes, toppers) to non-CE owners, creating exclusivity concerns similar to previous Cactus Canyon SE Plus topper controversy

    high · Joel describes JJP selling CE features with silver instead of gold finishes to distributors; hosts compare to Stern's LE-exclusive toppers on past releases

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Stranger Things vault rumored for November with potential Season 5 tie-in; hosts discuss whether it would be vault, premium-heavy, or new art package limited edition

    medium · Joel: 'there's rumors, right, that there's a big opening in November. So people are like, this would be the opportunity for Stern to do a vault.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Rick and Morty reputation improving as homes get extended play time, contradicting location-based negative perception; indicates game quality requires commitment to discover

    high · Joel: 'I think it's gotten a bad rap' but now 'I'm very impressed with it'; Travis sold his but acknowledges positive aspects; both note improved enjoyment after extended play

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern appears to be shifting from traditional vault releases to anniversary edition strategy with new art packages and premium pricing (Elvira 40th, Jurassic Park 30th), signaling a more sustainable cash generation approach

    high · Joel explicitly theorizes: 'What if Stern is done with Vaults so we no longer have Vaults, but from here on out every version... they do some sort of limited edition cash grab'; hosts agree this is obvious strategy

    • 2:33
    No, it's... That's what it is. And then tonight, freaking Diva, we're here on time. The time that he told us to be here. Hey guys, I'm going to be late. My dog's got to go to bed. I've got to put my dog to bed. I've got to put the kids to bed and deal with a dog. Yes. My wife was real into the idea of getting a puppy. And even though our son is three and still not sleeping through the night consistently, apparently this is the right time to add a puppy into our life. Um, and we have a five-year-old daughter as well. So, um, if you can't, if you can't judge by the, or tell by the sarcasm, don't do that. Don't add a puppy when you don't have consistent sleep. It was, it was, it was a mistake, but, um, I feel like my, my voice, I let my opinion, I shared my thoughts on it before we I got a dog, and, you know, I feel like they were received but maybe not taken to heart. I don't know. Tom, do you know anything about that? You're almost as tired as Travis's camera. Travis's camera, which is already out. It sounds like, Joel, that you have a lot of authority in your house. Yeah. We run a ship. It's a 50-50, you know, kind of ship of we both, you know, carry the load and make sure we're pulling our weight here. But there are certain decisions that really don't feel 50-50. But I don't know. Yeah, yeah, whatever. Anyways, so we have a dog now. Yep, and I had to deal with the dog, and here we are. But, hey, we're here. We're here. We're finally here. So if Joel goes missing, Tom, for the next month again, it just means that his wife listens to this podcast. Or his dog is lost. He probably gets the golf cart out and just goes around. Yeah, I'll see how far I can get on one charge of a golf cart. I'll get about, whatever, four miles, and then that'll be me running away.
    4:22
    The record button is going, by the way. Oh, cool. We have to get this live. Yes, we're doing that. All right, good. Awesome. But, no, there wasn't a ton of news, and then there was, and then there was a lot of travel. There was a lot of travel between, like, I had a family thing that I was traveling for, and then you guys both had tournaments that, I mean, it was just, I think even, like, didn't, like, Super Series even happen in the last month? I mean, it was like... Oh, yeah, Super Series has already happened, Joel. Not Super Series, but there was this huge thing in District 82. Yeah, Penberg. Penberg happened.
    4:54
    What was the huge thing? The Summer... Summer something. Summer Series. Yeah, the Summer something. You're right. It's a big old... Good job, Joel. There was a bunch of people that went to it. I know that was something that I was like... Yeah, which I had to miss. Well, you did. Didn't you have like a wedding anniversary or something? Yeah, no. Yeah. Wedding anniversary. Sorry, no, my nephew was getting married. Oh, well, I remember seeing a picture of you in a tie, so I just assumed. But no, that was like a whole week thing, though. You're like, yeah, I can't do anything from Tuesday to the following Monday. I mean, it was like, yeah. So I get it. Anyways, that's all of our excuses. It's been a long time, but here we are. That's all of Joel's excuses. Tom and I would have recorded, but our overlord is like, no. I said, you're welcome to do it. And Travis is like, you think I'm going to figure out a Zoom caster? You can't even figure out your camera. There's zero chance. Okay, that is true. Zero chance. So Venom, right? Here we are. Yeah, so let's look at our list. Venom is really the main thing. What has happened to us in the last few weeks? Venom is the main thing. But I do want to side tangent before we dive into Venom, because I want to talk about this machine right here behind me. I have a Rick and Morty. I have a Rick and Morty here behind me.
    6:04
    Is that actually getting played since you have a Venom right behind your head? It was getting played a lot before I got Venom. Okay. But Rick and Morty. I like how Joel's like, there's this new pinball machine now. We're going to talk about it. I don't want to forget. Let's talk about this one that came out three and a half years ago. If you look at our list, our list has four points, and Rick and Morty is none of them. Exactly. What the heck are you doing right now? I want to talk about it. I think this pin, okay, Tom has this pin. We can leave it, Tom. We do all this people and stuff, and we can't even get to number one. Maybe I'll just talk to Tom, you know? Okay, that's fine. Travis, move on your camera or whatever. You're right. I want to talk about Rick and Morty. I was borrowing a Spider-Man. We talked about Spider-Man. Spider-Man Vault Edition was the last. We talked about that, and that ruffled some feathers.
    6:57
    Well, that Spider-Man was sold, so I had a big open spot in my lineup, and I needed something until Venom showed up. And a buddy of mine in the area had a Rick and Morty, and he's like, sure, borrow it, have a great time. My buddy Chris, and he actually streamed it the night we streamed the game. I've only played Rick and Morty a handful of times. Every time I've played it at a show, it's either been down or it's in a broken state. Or if I've played it on location, it's brutal. Like, I just, I get one or two games in and that's it. So I just haven't really had much time on this. Now that I actually have it in the house and actually been playing it.
    7:35
    These guys, these guys, what are you doing? What? I'm just watching film. Did you guys just look at each other laughing? You know? I thought you were going to gush over this bit. I said it was broken. I said all my experience before was negative. But now that it's here and it's working and I actually have a chance to put time on it, this game's really fun. There it is. You just got to wait. You just got to wait a second. Imagine the game working. Yeah. Okay. So I think we should probably clarify that, right? that a working pinball machine is typically better than a broken one. Oh, you haven't played Thunderbirds. This is a message to all you operators out there. Make sure your games are actually working. People prefer that. Yeah. They do. Same thing with tournament players. Tournament players prefer games that are working well compared to just junk games. Tournament players prefer that every fucking switch in the game works. we won't get into that ok so Rick and Morty why is Rick and Morty great and what I will tell you is the game is clunky that's my negative the game is clunky but once you accept that the game the layout of the game is clunky and it's going to be a challenge once you accept that and get past that the code of the game is actually a lot of fun the modes in the game are a lot of fun they're very unique and the overall theme and like it is Rick and Morty to a T like it's the immersion of the game and the integration of the game is hilarious and that's the last part is it's freaking hilarious it is such a fun and funny game to play Travis you're really stuck on a thought you've been like stuck on it for 10 seconds so you're saying you get past the bad parts the pin is fun I would say most people when they step up to a pinball machine on location they're not going to hear it and typically when you're playing pinball it's hard to look at this lcd so what are you experiencing initially you're experiencing the shots you're experiencing the layout and you typically experience like the brutality so if you put a dollar into the game and you drain very quick it doesn't matter how great the game is you're going to be like this game sucks and you're going to move to the next game that to me is this game is a challenging layout but when you have it in your house and you're not having to pump money into it and you can just keep playing and you can start to learn where some of these challenging shots are, that's when the game really opens up and becomes a lot of fun. And it's, I think some people don't have the patience or the money to keep putting quarters or dollars into a game to get past that challenging point. Like I think Turtles, I think Turtles gets a bad rap because I think Turtles, people play Turtles and they're like, this game sucks because it's too hard. And they never get far enough to actually experience the code or the whatever. But Rick and Morty, I think it's – I mean, that's why, like, a Keith Elwin game, you can just step up to it, and it shoots well, and so people are immediately finding satisfaction in the game, and they're going to keep playing it, and then they start to experience the code and all the other good stuff. But if a game shoots poorly or is very challenging, it's hard to get people past that initial barrier. I mean, I'm not wrong on that, right? I mean, we can give you validation if you want validation. I just don't know anymore. I look at your face and it's just there. I just don't know what you're going to do. I'm listening intently. I appreciate your view on Rick and Morty. Joel, I've been watching a lot of lawyer TV, so I'm going to – what about Avengers?
    11:26
    A lot of people don't like Avengers. and that game shoots like butter. Yeah, but I think people give it enough time to like, okay, I'm shooting, I'm shooting shots, but I don't know what I'm doing. But I feel like there are certain games, Turtles is one of them, and I think Rick and Morty is one of them where they're like, or even like Star Wars, like Star Wars, some of the brutality of that layout, even the plunge where you immediately drain, they're just like, that ball, I don't even, or Ghostbusters, you know, it's like, it all happened so fast and I don't know if I want to put another dollar in and lose the ball in 10 seconds.
    12:01
    It's like they can't get past that. So that to me is I've been really impressed with the game, and the big part of it is if you're a Rick and Morty fan, it does Rick and Morty incredibly well. It is really funny. The game is really, really funny. The call-outs, the fact that they got Justin Rowland, I think is the guy's name, to actually do a gazillion call-outs that are pinball specific, it just, you'll hear things that you as you're playing it over the course of a few hours unique callouts that are just really funny How's Justin Rowland doing now? Not good, not good Is it Justin Rowland or Dan Hardwick? I think it's Justin Rowland I don't think he's going to be coming back to do any callouts for the new code update or anything But the other thing about that game is the modes are great the modes are very unique they feel like they feel different every single one you play and I really like that. I really like mode-based games that the modes are unique and fun. And then the other thing I love about it is the dimensions. The dimensions are the fact that as you're playing the game, dimensions completely change the game, whether it's the lighting or the sound or how things score or, like, ramps don't work or this doesn't work, and it just makes everything feel different every time you play. And that, to me, I think what's tough with a pinball machine is if it starts to get old or you feel like you're just doing the same thing over and over again, that's when people typically get sick of a game. And I just really like the variety that's in that game. So my overall view is I'm just I'm really glad I've had it this long because I think it's gotten a bad rap. But I understand for some people that own it and still own it. I understand why. And like, Tom, you still own yours. And I remember right now. Yeah, I remember asking, like, why do you why do you own it? And I'm curious what your thought is.
    13:56
    It's not Halloween, Joel. Well, you don't, there's nothing in your, you know, your life contract if I have to own a spooky game. And so this is the best of the worst. I really like the theme and I like the shots on it and the brutality of it. And it keeps me entertained. So I, that's why I keep it around. Yeah. Well, I don't blame you. I'm just saying it sucks, though, because I think on location, if you can't force yourself to keep playing to get better at the shots, and if you can't hear it, if you can't hear the game, like, the humor is so good in this game, and you've got to be able to hear it. And that's one thing I hate about location play is certain locations are just so loud that you just totally miss out on an audio package of a game, and that can really impact the overall experience. But I don't know. For me, I'm very impressed with Rick and Morty. I've really enjoyed having it, and that's the end of my tangent.
    14:55
    Travis, you said before we started recording that you had one, but you were so far down on the list that you actually sold your spot just because you played a ton of it on location. I mean, what was your feeling or view of it when you – I enjoyed it. It's by far my most favorite spooky. It doesn't, to me, whenever I play it, it doesn't feel like a spooky, if that makes sense. It just, it feels like it's kind of its own thing. I enjoy the shots for what they are. They are challenging. It's not the best layout ever because there is a lot of clunk there. But for me personally, I kind of like that just because it makes something challenging. And I enjoy that type of challenge. Plus, I like the show. I watched the show before and it was, you know, it was enjoyable. So, yeah. So any of the listeners that are Rick and Morty fans, and if that's a dream theme of yours, I think it's a fun game. And I will tell you, having the pop bumper down at the sling is awesome. It's really fun. I would love to see more unique stuff like that because it still feels like a normal layout, but it's enough of a change that it really feels unique. But the other thing that really stands out to me, though, is the magnet save or the magnet ball save on the right. Instead of it just being like a black knight where you hit the button and it just goes on and it just grabs the ball, this, it's like it's a pulse. So as you hold the ball down or the button down, it pulses the magnet, and you get a little more control with that. And the way you can, like, kind of slow the ball down or whip it back into play or I don't – it just – it's a really, really fun feature that I would love to see. How about that stage ball fast? Oh, yeah. That got my brother so many times. And it's like we almost had to warn him. Like, Jerry, during this portal shot, you know, it's just, I loved it. Is it faster than the one on Venom?
    16:51
    Yes. Yes, I would say it is. But that's a great transition. Unless anybody else, you know, we'll just. How would you compare it to Halloween? Halloween where it's like where'd the ball go look around look around and it just kind of dribbles out that's and I don't I mean it's just yeah it's a complete stop and go elevator just it's unique because the layout and the rules it just it's totally different than what anything else Spooky has done in my opinion I think that's what drives a lot of people to enjoy the game for what it is because it just feels like its own thing.
    17:31
    And the assets and everything, at least with the theme, it just feels like it's integrated very well, too. I mean, anything you look at, it could always be better, of course, but for what it is, the way that they got the modes, the way that they have the dimensions, the sounds, and the humor in it, too, I think that pulls it a long ways. To me, that's the most enjoyable parts of the game. I completely agree. The humor is, that's something, the more that I get into pinball, the games that typically draw me back are the ones that are going to make me laugh or the ones that I know are just fun, you know, and that fun factor is typically funny or humorous or something. Like, I mean, sure, Godzilla isn't like cracking jokes, but it's campy and it's just a fun, lighthearted theme kind of thing, which isn't like a dig on like Godfather. Like Godfather, I enjoyed it, but Godfather is very just kind of hilarious. Godfather is hilarious. You don't know the comedy in it? No. No, I'm not following the comedy in Godfather. No.
    18:32
    You know, I should transition into Venom, but I'm going to just make one, you know, another side comment. Another side comment. Why not? So, Tom, you're a Godfather owner. You're not a CE owner, but JJP did release accessories.
    18:47
    And so a topper instead of two guys shooting at you with coils, you only get one. and then all the other CE bells and whistles, you can get those, but instead of gold, they're silver.
    19:00
    Do you care? What are your thoughts on that? I don't know. I mean, it's nice that they're offering it, but it's not something I'm going to get.
    19:15
    You don't plan on getting any of them? Nope. I don't think so. I mean, they come as a package right now, So what what I've heard is, yes, they are sold to distributors as a package, but it is up to the distributor if they want to, like, open the package and start to sell things individually. But then it's then you're up to the distributor on whether or not they get stuck with, you know, well, people wanted a topper. So now I'm stuck with three horse head shooter knobs, you know. No. So, I don't know. I just, you are typically an LE buyer, and in this situation, the LE, which is the CE. Yeah, but this is the CE version. I find it very interesting. The LE is like the standard version of the game. Correct. I'm saying you're typically an LE buyer in Stern World, so that would be the equivalent of the CE in JJP World. I just think it's very interesting that essentially all the bells and whistles that the CE had, they're basically selling to everybody else just with a color change. And I think some people probably prefer the silver over the gold. And I find that very unique. I mean, I know there was an argument with Cactus Canyon with the SE Plus that they're like, the whole reason I bought the LE is because of the topper. Nobody else could get that. And then now people can get that. So I'm trying to think of an equivalent there of, you know, if Stern sold, well, this isn't the best example. You mean like if they put a topper on the 60th anniversary of James Bond? No, an exclusive topper, and then they sold it. Is that what you mean? Something like that. Yeah, sold it. Well, I would say, yes, that's a valid point. But I'm trying to think. I mean, LE in the Stern world is just different powder coat, And then the only thing that's exclusive is the mirrored back glass and the art blades. And so if –
    21:04
    Let's talk about that. And the signature. Yes, and the signature. So, you know, Stern has done – you know, first they did the – what, the 40th of Elvira, was it? Something like that? Yeah. And then they did the same thing with Jurassic Park with the 30th. I mean, in some respects, those are limited packages that they've changed. So they came out with a limited edition game, but now they're coming out with something different that's limited edition. And I know JJP's done the same thing. You're not following me, Joel? No, I am. I'm just trying to – didn't Jurassic Park 30th come out like two days after we recorded? Wasn't that a thing? Yeah, I think so. We haven't talked about Jurassic Park 30th, have we? I don't think we have. I don't know. I have one in my game room, though. I know. Travis owns one. It's a lot of fun. It plays just like Jurassic Park LE. Go figure. But the powder coat is different. Oh, yeah. And the art package is different. Chef's kiss. I love the powder coat. I mean, why – maybe that's the question. And Travis is like, why did you decide to buy the Jurassic Park 30th when premiums are available?
    22:21
    Counterpoint. Why not? How many discussions have you had in your marriage where you responded that way? Where Monica asked you a direct question and you respond with, why not? You never self-implicate. just reverse it. Uno reverse card on everything. No, I got it because my wife wanted the game.
    22:52
    I planned on getting a Jurassic Park Premium before, and then when I realized that the 30th was coming out, I just waited, and then when it came out, I said, okay, I'm going to get this. But I did have to, I ended up giving up Avengers LE, but never thought I would do, but I am getting Avengers Pro. So I figured that's a decent trade-off. Good trade. Because I was just thinking about which direction do I want to go with this, and I realized that my Avengers LE, I had it basically set up like a Pro. Because the subway turned off? Yeah, the subway was broke for a long time, and then I just left it on just to play like a Pro in general, and the only differences were the Captain Marvel ramp and then the Ant-Man scoop, and that was about it. Oh, because the Subway's off, so the saucer doesn't even go up and down. Well, it could. It could. I just, yeah, I could bypass. It would still do its normal thing just without locking the balls. But I just, you hardly ever run into it in tournaments. So I just use it as a pro because that's the version you typically see out there. And it plays a lot different, a lot more difficult if you do that. So, you know, that's just reasons why I did that. And plus, I like Jurassic Park. I skipped out on an LE before a few years ago and decided when I knew that the 30th was coming out, just wanted to get it, and the wife wanted to get it. So you don't say no to Monica when she gets pinball. And she doesn't say no to Keith Elwin. She is a fan. Nope. She's going to get any of those pins. So, yeah. So I guess I'm due to get another premium or LE here in just, what, a few months? Oh, next game, yeah.
    24:34
    Well, cool. I'm glad you got one. Tom, really, I don't think we talked about this. Tom, do you own Jurassic Park? You own Jurassic Park, don't you? I have the premium right over by Rush. The premium. Okay, because I was curious. If you had the LE. So I originally had the Pro, and I just upgraded recently with my IFPA rewards.
    24:56
    Ah, got it, got it. So as a recent JP premium buyer, would you, were you a little upset? Like if you would have known the 30th edition was right around the corner, would you have gone for that or no? Not at all. No. Okay. I mean, cost-wise, it's a little bit more expensive than a premium, Joel. I don't know if you've looked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, cool. Well, I do think, I would guess Stern's going to do more of this. And I think somebody pointed out that Godzilla has an anniversary next year. I did. Yeah. It's the 40th anniversary. Or not 40th. I think it's the 50th? I don't know. Why are you guys commenting this now? I'm going to sold my piss. I think it's the 70th anniversary coming up. I know right now it's the 60th for Avengers, but they didn't do anything for that. Yeah, I know that there's a huge anniversary coming up for Godzilla next year. That would not shock me at all if you kind of just follow. Backlash. What's going on? That just seems like a foregone conclusion, right? If you're going to do it for Elvira and Jurassic Park, why not do it for one of your biggest selling games, if not your biggest selling game of all time? So what about this question? What if Stern is done with Vaults so we no longer have Vaults,
    26:19
    but from here on out every version, if Stern remakes a game, instead of it just being a Vault where they remade what's already available, they do some sort of limited edition cash. No, but it's, I mean, like what, I mean, what if that, so what's a game that has like, um, I don't know, like a ghostbusters, let's say they do a ghostbuster vault instead of just making the pros or the premiums, same art, same everything. They pay zombie Eddie to do a new art package, new powder coat, sell it for an Ellie price. They make them limited. Boom. Yes. Yeah. Well, Why not? I mean, anniversary packages. It's not like pinball is the only industry that does this. If you, I think I even sent you guys the picture of the Jurassic Park 30th anniversary stuff that I saw in stores. Yeah. Right. So, I mean, people were calling this a cash grab and everything. And I just want to say, well, hell yes, it's a cash grab. They're a business. Why would you not do that? They need to make money. They need to pay employees. They need to keep everything going. Please stay in business. Yeah, exactly. Please make as much money as you want so you can keep producing pinball. By all means, do that. So, yeah, I think that it would be a very good strategy to focus on anniversaries like that of successful ends or themes that they've had in the past, as opposed to just straight up vaulting. I mean, there's still a time and place for a vault. But, yeah, if like next year, for example, it is the 70th anniversary of Godzilla. So there you go. Maybe 75th. You just wait a few more years. That seems obvious to me that they would do that. But I think if you do an anniversary or you do a new art package, a new limited edition, you know, there are people that sold their JPLEs or sold their premiums to get – they wanted to upgrade. They wanted this instead. And if you just do a vault, there's, you know, it's rare that people are – like, I don't know. Like, I'm curious. I wasn't around when, like, Iron Man vaulted. Were there Iron Man owners that sold their game just to get the vault? Well, it was basically the same. It's going to be tough in the future because so many games are being produced nowadays that I think it's going to be tough just to outright vault things. I think the only time you're going to see a vault is if the game just had a very limited run to begin with. And that's why everybody's...
    28:46
    Well, that's why Stranger Things is being rumored heavily for a vault because it did not have a big run. A lot of people forget that. I would venture to say that the premium is probably actually the most limited edition out there right now. What's next? Season five? Have a season five.
    29:04
    Well, we're all with Stranger Things. Let's say instead of – there's rumors, right, that there's a big opening in November. So people are like, this would be the opportunity for Stern to do a vault. Stranger Things, there's obviously demand for that. There's a new season coming out. Do they do the vault? Do they just make a bunch of premiums? Or do they have a whole new art package and they do another, and they call it a limited edition, you know, and they, I don't know what they, maybe they can do an anniversary or they just call it the season five limited edition. I don't know. But does it make sense for Stern to pretty it up more so that they can charge a lot more money? Or do they just make the same game, the premium, and they charge it, they charge current premium prices? it seems to me that they're going to make more money if they do a limited type edition game, but does that piss the previous? I don't know. Travis is stroking a beard. I don't know what you know what stroking a beard is. It's, you know. I can't grow a beard, so no, Joel. Please tell me. What's stroking a beard? You'll have to know.
    30:10
    I'm trying to figure out how to comment on this particular subject. So I would think if they would come out with Stranger Things and have a brand new art package, I think that would help it a lot. I think if you add in the UV kit with it, that would help out a lot. I think those two things would be pretty cool. You know, in terms of a full-on art package, obviously because of the way that the play field was with the UV kit, I'm not even sure if that could even be done anyways. I don't know what the logistics are with that. But I don't know. If they did Stranger Things, I wish that they would just come out with other seasons as opposed to doing a vault. That's what I would like to see personally. Oh, you mean like an actual new game? Yeah. I mean, we've talked about that before. The one thing I've never understood is why pinball has shied away from doing sequels or doing huge themes in segments. You know, just like we talked about Harry Potter. Yeah. You know, and the same thing with Stranger Things. They did the first two seasons. Well, there's been two other seasons to come out, and the show is bigger more than ever now. It's breaking records all the time. Why would you not just go ahead and say, okay, let's push forward with that? I would think Netflix would rather have a pin made entirely of a whole entire show. Just go to the first movie. I mean, even Ghostbusters. Why not come out with another Ghostbusters based off the new movie?
    31:51
    Just lean into IPs. Yeah. I'm trying to think of, like, you know, Mandalorian. Mandalorian, that pin, I think, has only the first season in it. And there's been, what, two or three more? But it has one and two? It has two seasons. But it doesn't have all of it. Like, that's what I'm saying. It's like there was a whole season that came out after the game came out. They're not going to make it. Right, and that's always going to happen.
    32:16
    I mean, I see what you're saying, but I know the way that they coded Stranger Things with the whole left side of the play field being Season 1 and the whole right side of the play field being Season 2, I mean, they really leaned into Season 1, Season 2. They've hurt themselves on there's really no easy way to add more. Right. No, and I just, I think as it is, if Stranger Things comes out as a vault, I don't think it's going to do great. I think it'll do decent.
    32:46
    It'll, I mean, and that's about it. I don't think all of a sudden it's just going to set the world on fire or anything. I just don't think it will. I know I have a Stranger Things up for sale right now, and I think I'm going to end up having to price a pro right at $8,000 with the UV kit and with the topper on it as well. So, I mean, yeah, these pins were going for pretty good value before. I think if you come out with a pro version, I don't think it's going to do great. I think you have to come out with a premium to move units. I completely agree. I don't think Stern should make the pro at all. I mean, I don't see the demand there. It's the premium that people want or some sort of vaulted LE or something. I don't know. Travis is gone. And, yeah, I don't know. I do think, I mean, maybe that's another question. You know, before we get to Venom, we're just going to keep pushing it back. You know, you said this, if Stranger Things came out right now, it wouldn't light the world on fire. Is there a pinball machine that could come out right now that would light the world on fire? Like, is the market in a spot where there is a pinball machine that would sell out immediately? Three of them. Mario, Enter the Spider-Verse, South Park. Harry Potter. Harry Potter, I think. Well, yeah. I mean, that goes without saying. Oh, okay. Excuse me. Four of them. So it's really, that's, I mean, everything you said is just theme. It's just theme. It doesn't matter who's making it. I mean, I know Elwynn is rumored. You're already saying. Oh, sweet baby Jesus. Sorry. My wife, she just came back from book club. She's obviously been into the wine. She just came into the studio. Yeah. I'm recording. Yeah, just hand her the headset. Hell no. Yeah, just hand her the headset. We can talk to her for five minutes. It'll be great.
    34:36
    She just came right in, just walking in, as if I'm just here, just sitting here, just staring at a camera for no reason. She's about to start talking and everything. Okay, sorry, Joel. That just normal life No I was hi Monica You can sit Yeah what was I saying I was saying Harry Potter No Keith Elwin So it like obviously you in you don care what the next game is from Keith Elwin – a Keith Elwin game is bigger than the theme in your world. But that's you as a pinball buyer, as a pinball player. Well, it's – Everything you just said was themes. Those are the four things that blow up. I can trust that he will put out a game that's going to be enjoyable. That's what I can trust. I can trust the rules are going to be something that's enjoyable. I can trust the shots are going to be fun. The efficiency percentage is high with that one.
    35:24
    Bingo. So that's good. I mean, that's a good, solid trust factor. So it seems like Elwynn has that ability, but everybody else or every other pin, the only way it's going to sell out day one, sight unseen, at this point in this market, is if it's a killer theme. That's your thought.
    35:44
    In the market today, yeah. Yeah, it'll have to be a theme. The market today, yes. I think Foo Fighters was the last gasp of everybody that would rush out and get something. I think, obviously, what Jack put out was unique, and I think that there is a lot more people that want up-to-date themes when it comes to the quote-unquote dad rock, and we had talked about that plenty of time before. I think that that's severely underrated by a lot of people. they don't realize how popular some of that is. But at the same time, I think that if Stern or anybody else leans into music themes that are a little bit more mainstream of today, I think it would do well. If you do a hip-hop pin, I think it would do fairly well. I think if you do a Taylor Swift pin, it would do well. Stuff like that. I think that if you get away from doing the stuff from the 70s and all that, yeah, I think those themes would do well today. But it's a different market, too, currently right now. So just because you come out with what should be a dynamite theme doesn't necessarily mean that it will sell out. I think in the past, a lot of people were okay with doing pre-orders, getting on lists, so on and so forth. But now, I don't know. There just seems to be a lot of pullback from that. And I think that's due to a lot of variables, a lot of factors, whether it's pricing, whether it's allocation, whether it's just there's so many different options out there or whether just the general cost of living has gone up for everybody that people are just making better decisions, I guess, so to say, or just different decisions in terms of what they're paying for in their daily lives. So, I mean, it's just hard to say, but I think that there's only a handful of themes and the themes that we went through today, those four themes, those are the only ones that I would truly be confident in that if I knew that those were the ones coming out, that it would do gangbusters. Sure. I get it. I mean, Harry Potter is one of them, obviously. And then we've talked about video game themes, whether it's Mario or maybe even a Zelda or Pokemon. Like those are those are the types of things that I agree could sell out super fast. I also feel there are some vaults, you know, if they did a Lord of the Rings vault or a Tron vault, I do think those could sell out super fast. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Lord of the Rings would be on a... I think Tron does. I don't think Lord of the Rings does. I think Tron does really well. I was going to say the opposite. I just don't think Lord of the Rings quite has it anymore the way it is. Now they came out with that show that was on Amazon that just got slammed. Ring of Fire? Yeah. Ring of Power. Ring of Fire. We don't even know the name. Ring of Power. I just think something like Tron you could just do a lot more with that nowadays, just in terms of the music, the light show. Oh, what if they did Tron vaulted with expression lighting? Exactly. Yeah. I think that's exactly what I was getting to. There's a little bit more uniqueness that you could get to with that.
    38:50
    All right. Well, yep. Good night, everybody. Yeah, I've put up Venom long enough. So we're going to talk about it this way. We're going to talk about – we're going to start with Tom and Tom's experience on Venom because he actually has the least amount of play compared to the two of us. So I'm curious. Ray Charles playing it, man. Tom, you were the first of us actually to play it because up at District 82, Trent with Tilt Amusements had brought one just to let you guys play a round on, and you actually moved your streaming rig over it and streamed. I remember watching you play like one ball, and you did a lot in that one ball. I mean, it was a premium, right? Yeah. I had no idea what I was doing. So tell us about that, Tom. I mean, your initial impressions, you step up to the game. You obviously had no idea what you were doing. I had no idea what I was doing. But how did it feel? You still put up over a billion, though, right? Yeah. It shot great. But the shots are, like, really wide open for the most part.
    39:57
    I didn't think there was a tough shot on the game. Yeah. You know, and that's one of my reasons why I'm not buying one.
    40:10
    I don't know. I just, you know, first first impressions was it just shot a little too easy for me. But obviously that can change with game setups and things like that. And actually the tilt was really tight on that game, too. but you know I think some of I don't understand the code at this point so I'm going to go out to locations and play the crap out of it so I can get a feel for the game and I don't know I don't have a big opinion of it just because of my limited experience with the game What about Fastlocks? you were i don't i don't i really don't care for them i don't think they're like this great i know we kind of talked about this before but i don't think they're this like exciting feature of the game okay um i think the captive ball like hitting the what is it the uh carnage yeah i said it i had to think for a second you like that tone tom that you get you know when when either of us That's a question that Travis feels is so obvious. He's got to finish it. He's got that tone, you know, carnage, you know.
    41:34
    I'm just making sure. I'm on Tom's side here. Part of that is I just don't know the Venom lore that well like Travis does. I was just calling Travis a douche, that's all.
    41:48
    But, you know, what the hell were we talking about? We were talking about carnage. Yeah, so I thought the carnage mech was cool.
    42:04
    But, you know, and the doppelganger was okay. But, I mean, to me, that was the game. And I didn't think it was that big of part of the game. Now, obviously, there's a ton of code into the game. But I was literally just shooting, you know, oh, this shot's purple. I'm going to shoot this. And this shot's blue. And this shot's yellow. So I'm going to shoot that because it's lit. I had absolutely no direction on what I was doing. I was literally jolling the game. Yeah. And you had a great time. And I did.
    42:45
    Well, good. No, I remember you played it. I remember we were messaging you on Facebook. and you're like, hey, how was it? And you're like, I had no idea. Like that was your thing? Like, I had no idea what I was doing. And what do you think of Fast Locks? You know, it's just kind of, it seemed like a very lukewarm. Yeah, first impressions is lukewarm. Maybe if I play it 50 times, I'll be like, hey, this game's awesome. You know, but just not there yet. What you're saying, Travis, is it milk toast? Is that what you're saying? Milk toast. It sounds like Tom's going to give it a milk toast rating. Milk toast is lukewarm, right? Like that's pretty bland. Is that what we're going for there? Yep. I still don't get it. You can just say it was warm. Just listen to the first 20 minutes of this episode and you'll get it. That was – oh, man. Man, a month of not recording wasn't long enough. That's what I'm feeling right about now. No.
    43:44
    Apparently people miss this. It's crazy. I don't know. Do you want to talk, Travis? I'll let you go.
    43:53
    I'll bring it up. Travis, you have a pro in your house, right? No. It wasn't in your house? No, it's at work. Yeah, it's at my work at the studio. Got it. Okay. So you've actually done a bunch of filming on it. You've really dove into the game. You've asked me a ton of questions, which I think is hilarious. I think it's really funny that the way that you had to learn how to play the game was by watching my stream, which was a joy. Let me tell you, cruel and unusual punishment. You got paid to do it. My God. You got paid by the company you work for to watch me stream and explain to you how to play a game. Tell us more.
    44:40
    You want me to tell you more about that experience? Tell us more. Was it like the water boy? No, I think it was. Oh, my gosh. Tom, it had crossed my mind that even during work hours, maybe I need to break out the bottle of Jack just to get through it and just say, okay, here's what's going on. Your message group to us in Lusitania was like, hell has frozen over because I am being paid to watch Joel play.
    45:06
    It was funny because I had all this content that I needed to make and I wanted to make, but I hadn't got to play it yet. So I wanted to know what I was going to get myself into. Right. And so I first went to go watch Tom play. And then I kept in mind that Tom had said that he really didn't know what he's doing. And so of course, when I watched him, I was like, okay, yeah, that checks out. But even though he's still getting through the game, I was like, well, I need to find something out there to where it's kind of showing me what to do. And then I realized I was like, wait, you did a stream with the white. I was like, surely that'll make sense. Oh, yeah. It's, you know, you get past the venom expert, you know. Yeah. Why not? High level pinball player. Well, you get past watching all the posts get hit. Yeah. You can definitely. Those don't score points. I don't get it. Why the posts don't score points yet? I don't understand. But, yeah, you turned to my stream and you learned everything. Everything you need to know. Oh, yeah. You're welcome. Totally. Full-on expert after that, for sure. We had a guy comment on our stream. He said, I had to turn it off after 15 minutes.
    46:19
    Why? Please, flipping out, get better players to show off your game. That was a comment that was on the YouTube video. I have a streaming rig right here. If you're a distributor, my heart. Joel, my heart. I had Venom. And a huge shout-out to Dwight. Dwight Sullivan, the lead coder, not designer, but the lead software lead on the game,
    46:46
    he's watched a lot of the streams and whatnot, and he had reached out to me, and he's like, whenever you stream this, I'd love to be on it. And I asked, well, do you want to be on audio? And he's like, sure, let's do it. And he was awesome. He was awesome to have, awesome to answer questions, and he was incredibly informative on how to play the game. I would say that is one thing that is tough. Once you understand the basic structure of the game, the lights actually tell you what to do pretty well. Right. Until you wrap your head around that, it's really hard to understand what you're doing. Yeah, and we can break that down actually very easily. So I'll say this. I'll back up a little bit here.
    47:23
    Playing it, I think the game itself, it's fun for what it is. You know, the rules are what they are. I don't know if I'm on board yet with not having any traditional modes. so to speak. You still have your boss battles once you get to a certain level. If I say, Travis, you're fun for what you are, is that a compliment? You know, Joel, I've taken that compliment for nearly 20 years of marriage.
    47:49
    It is what it is. Okay, so the game's fun for what it is. We'll just roll with that. Sorry, go ahead. So what I'm trying to, what I'm wrapping my mind around is that, like Tom said, All right, I'll just come out and say, to me, in my opinion, this game is probably the easiest playing game that I can remember Stern coming out with. Well, yeah, Joel's done pretty well. Yeah, even Joel's scored a billion on it, I believe, right, Joel? I've scored a billion, and I've beaten Noel. But I will put the caveat with that most likely that has to be by design because of the XP system wanting people to get through the game. So that's what I'm saying. It's fun for what it is. I went into it knowing that. So for me, what I found to be the most fun part of the game is the speed runs. I think the idea of figuring out how to beat a game as fast as possible and try to figure out the shortest path, try to figure out what's going to give you the XP exploits or the fastest XP possible or the most efficient XP, to me, I enjoyed that aspect of it more than anything. So I think because of that, I can kind of look past the lack of modes early on, as opposed to just the boss battles. But, yeah, I think, like you were mentioning, Joel, if you can wrap your mind around the combos and everything, then you're good to go. I will say my two sons, who are 12 and 13, they played it, and they loved the game to death. The idea of an XP system, they are thrilled with it. My 13-year-old, he wants to play this game all the time. He's been asking me to take him up to work to go play Venom. He's even asked for a Venom to come at the house. And I've had to tell him, like, whoa, whoa. We have Jurassic Park. We have Godzilla. We have Walking Dead. I need you to calm down right now. But, yeah, he's wanting a Venom. But how much XP is in those three games?
    49:47
    Zero. Yeah. So, you know, I think the game is fun when you look at it from that perspective. I think you can find fun in nearly any pinball machine there is. But if you are playing Venom and you're trying to figure out what's going on, the easiest way to play it is you just simply follow the colors. That's all you do. If you see yellow, you hit yellow. What if you're color blind? What if you're color? Then you're screwed. You're screwed. You need to go play foosball or something because you're not going to survive Venom. You just hit everything. I want to just to clarify the color thing is when you look at your grid, When you pick a host, there's going to be a vertical column that you are selecting. And in that vertical column, there are three lights, a yellow, a white, and a blue. And you have to light those. Yellow, light, blue. In that order. Okay. Yellow, blue, white. So that's your column. And so for you to battle your first guy, you have to do those three lights. And those three lights, the way you do those, Dwight calls them mini modes, but the reality is it's a combo shot. It's just a two-shot combo. And he calls them mini modes. So, like, if you want to light yellow, you look at the play field. There will be a light that is solid yellow. You hit that. As soon as you hit that, now there will be another light somewhere else that is a flashing yellow shot. You have to then hit the flashing yellow shot. If you do that, solid yellow, then flashing yellow, boom, you lit your light. And you have to do the same thing. Solid blue, flashing blue. Solid white, flashing white. You do those. You light your three lights. Now you've completed that column. Do you have to do that in order? No. You can do that in any order. And that's the thing. When it's flashing, if it's a flashing light, it's a timed light. It will time out eventually, and then you just hit the solid one again to relight it. But once you do that ladder, as long as you're at 10 XP or higher, 10 levels, 10 levels or higher, then you can battle that character. And that's what I was going to say, too. It's funny because it points us out on the LCD, and it doesn't say this in the rules PDF because it firmly establishes it wants you to know that these are mini modes. But yet it'll say, I think it says the minor boss's name and then combo on the LCD. So it might say Riot Combo or Agony Combo or Age Combo, something like that. So if you can look at the grid and you don't think of it as just those three lights, you think of it as four lights because you're going to qualify that minor boss. And that's what we went back and forth on, Joel, because I couldn't get that across my mind for the longest time. Because I'm like, well, I've got to get to level 10. What's going to happen here? It says I'm qualified, but yet I can't fight him yet. So basically you hit the three combos. You have that minor boss qualified until level 10. So it's almost just like you get them loaded up. And then if you get to level 10 and you're still that character that you are for that grid. So, for instance, the very first line is Eddie. Next one's Flash. The third one's Gwen. The fourth one's Peter. So whichever character you are, then you're going to qualify that minor boss's combos. That path. Right. And that makes up the mini mode. So what's interesting, though, is, and I remember asking Dwight this, it's like, theoretically, you could complete that path, those three mini modes, in six shots. Like, you hit the solid, you hit the blinky, you do that for three colors. Even faster. Because you can do a super skill shot and spot a mini mode. There is a skill shot. So when you go to plunge the ball, the right flipper is going to select your host. The left flipper is going to select your skill shot. One of them is it's a hurry up to hit a shot, and it'll spot you in mini mode. But each host has different perks. So if you want to get into multi-ball quick, you pick Eddie because two locks are lit automatically. But then there's, I mean, every character has perks. We don't have to go through them all. It says it on the LCD. But what happens, so what happens if you plunge the ball, you're at level one, you hit your six shots just magically. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You've completed your path. You may be at that point level 2 XP. Well, you're stuck. You can't battle the guy because you're not at 10. So what do you do? On the left ramp, the change host button is there. You can hit that, and then it will allow you to select a different character. So you can start the path for your next character. And if you end up doing the two paths next to each other, then that's how you get all four corners of a square, and that's how you get certain perks that are right there in the middle of the grid. There are six available perks. So there's some planning there on basically building up your character, building up your perks. And you have to just do that. You have to focus on many modes until you get to level 10. How else can you increase your levels? Multiball. So you have Mayhem multiball, and then you have Carnage multiball. Carnage, you just hit the Carnage target a whole bunch. Once you do that, once you push them all the way back, then you hit the center ramp. Otherwise, Mayhem multiball deals with those locks. and there's multiple ways to lock the ball, and those are in the fast locks,
    54:40
    multiball is going to start automatically when you lock two balls. You have to hold the center button to hold your multiball, and you can let that build all the way up to a six-ball multiball. But I remember asking that to Dwight. I'm like, well, once I complete my path, if I'm not at level 10, what do I do? And he's like, you just have to keep gaining experience. So keep playing the game, keep trying to complete your paths, your mini modes, or play multiball, and you'll work your way up with experience up to level 10. And as soon as you do that, then as long as you're in a character with a completed path, you can battle the first guy. And once you battle the first guy, let's say you get through it, well, what's the next step? You have to battle Grindle. But to get to Grindle, you have to be level 20. So it's a lot more just playing the game to build your levels up. And that's something that is very interesting to me because this is the first game where multi-ball to me has always been a crutch that I can bring into a mode. where it's like, I want to beat Godzilla. I want to beat whatever, Rodan. Not Rodan. You don't fight him. I want to beat Titanosaurus. Well, before I play him, let me go ahead and start him and then start a multi-ball, and now I have a multi-ball in this mode. You don't have that in Venom. Like, the mini-modes, the battles, they're separate from multi-ball. So multi-ball, why are you shaking your head? Do you not remember what's on the fast locks? Okay, okay, yes. So there's another thing there. Well, actually, you have a complete crutch because you can play your multi-ball, and every time you get a jackpot, you beat one of the minor bosses. Yeah. I don't love it. I don't love that because this is another thing. On the fast socks themselves, there are three perks. And so the first two perks are the first two villains or the first two minor bosses. So you can get into your two-ball multi-ball, and if you hit every shot on the play field and then hit a jackpot, it gives you, you automatically beat that. So it's like you just skipped the whole mode. Now what's tough about it, though, it's not worth very much early on. I've seen, the scores are kind of a little bit all over the place, but I've seen some pretty massive scores. If somehow you can hold off on some of the, on fighting some of the guys later on, it could be worth $300, $400 million as opposed to getting $10 million for fishing them. But it just depends how you want to approach the game, too. So if the idea is with a speed run, this is Travis wanting to get all the way to Null as quickly as possible.
    57:03
    There's going to be a – I'm assuming there's a point or a lull. So you can quickly complete your mini-modes, your path. You can do that in just a few shots, especially if you spot one. And then you're saying you get into multi-ball, and if you play multi-ball right, you can beat a minor villain in multi-ball. Yeah, you'll be close to level 20 when you come out of multi-ball. Multi-ball? If you have a really good one. Okay. Yeah, yeah. But then you beat Grindle, so Grindle's at level 20. But when you're done with Grindle, typically what level are you at?
    57:34
    I've been as low as 23 when I started, so I think I was probably mid-20s at that point, 26, maybe 27. You're at 26, but you can't do anything until you get to 30 to fight Noel, and he levels at that higher take. You can do another multi-ball. Just another multi-ball. More locks. More combos. Yep. Combos, locks, multiball, grind it out.
    57:57
    And then you just keep going. And then boom, you're a null. Tom is holding his hand. What up, Tom? Tom has something to say. Hi, I'm Graham. Let's go. Hi, Tom.
    58:06
    How do you light your locks? Combos. You complete many locks. Just hitting combos. Yep. So what happens for your very first one, right? Unless you're – so some of the characters, too, besides just Eddie, you have one lock lit. I think the only one where you don't have any locks lit is Flash. I think that's the only one. So Gwen and Peter have one lock, and Eddie has two. But the way it works is typically your very first lock, you need one combo. Second lock, you need two combos. Third lock on, you need at least three combos. Okay. Just this is the confusing part is we are saying combos because they are. It is a two-ball combo. No, it does it on the LCD screen. It says Agony Combo or A-Combo. But that's what's tough is there's a whole other combo thing. For the character? Yeah. For the signature combos? There are lights on the play field that are webs and they say combo. It's something totally different than the mini modes that we're discussing. Right. So you can continually light your locks as long as you're hitting combos? Yes. Well, yes and no. You have to get past a minor boss first. You can only play Mayhem once. Okay. Before that. Otherwise, you can just keep spamming it over and over again. And what about Carnage, though?
    59:25
    Carnage is, so that's a tough one. I've played, I think, maybe one or two Carnages per game. So I think you've got to loop all the way back around to it. I don't know. What I do know is. Bloodbath is like the second level of Carnage, right? Well, it goes Carnage, Carnage, or it goes Multiball, Carnage, Hurry Up, and then Bloodlust. Right now they have to fix blood loss because there's a known exploit with that that you can just get billions off of just by doing center ramp basically nearly the whole time. Yeah, I found that. It was a big deal. Yeah. Well, the tough part is, too, is right now, and I know that there's going to have to be some score balancing, that the carnage multiball is just the value of it compared to mayhem. It's just way, way unbalanced. So if you want to absolutely destroy the game right now, just make sure you have Peter as your character. And whenever you start stacking everything up, you will be just shocked by the amount of points. I've played... Why Peter, though? Because Peter makes... That's fucking Spider-Man, bitch.
    60:33
    Peter makes... Basically, Carnage is easier to start. I think it only takes three hits to the captive ball in order to light it on the center ramp. and then the carnage points in multiball are worth a whole lot. So I've done some stacks to where I have 1.2 to 1.4 billion out of carnage and less than 150 million in mayhem, and they're stacked together.
    61:00
    Yeah, you can play both at the same time. To me, it's just – I'm just saying this game – I have looked at this game totally different than any other pinball machine I've ever played. Like, I just look at it as a game. You've actually looked at the rules. Yes, I've learned the rules, but I'm all about that in-game. Like, the reason I want to beat Noel because I want to unlock another character, and I want to have another character to play and have fun with, and it's just totally different. This is a game, I will be honest, I've played this game more in the week that I've had it than any other game that Zach's let me borrow. Like, every other game that he's let me borrow, I'll play it one or two nights before I stream just because I don't want to look totally dumb. I want to try to find the shots. But then I kind of want to discover the game, though, on stream. And it's almost like I don't want to get bored of the game or I don't want to do too much with the game off stream. Like I just – I play a lot of – typically I don't play a ton. But this game, because I know every game I play on it when I'm logged in with Insider Connected, I'm just improving my character. I'm just, like, benefiting what I'm doing. So I streamed it last night. It was Wednesday, but I played it Tuesday night for a little while just because I wanted to build up my character before I started to stream. And so for me, all I'm caring about is building my character. And what's odd is the multiball, like all I'm trying to do is complete my mini modes. All I'm trying to do is get to my battles. Like multiball feels almost like a distraction for me because I don't care about the points. It's just like, oh, I'm in multiball. So I just don't. It's not. I know, Tom. I know it's a crazy thing. What are you using your multiball for? I'm not. That's the thing. I'm not using it really at all. And I understand you're saying you can use the Mayhem multiball to give you the battles.
    62:49
    But I don't want to. Like, I actually. You can do more than that with it, though. Okay. The Mayhem multiball. What else can you use it for? It can give you four battles. It can give you a playfield multiplier. And it gives you XP.
    63:01
    And what else? Two times XP. One times play field, four battles. What do you want? You can do the doppelganger, infect it. But those don't, like, I don't need to do doppelganger to battle Null. They do. It gives you XP. You need to build up XP. Everything in the game builds up XP. But what builds up XP? It's either doing all those very specific things in the game to build it up quickly, like you're trying to do to do a speed run, or just keep playing the game. Just keep playing the game. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's why you use your multiball. Here, I'll tell you exactly what to do with multi-ball, okay? Exactly what to do. You're going to thank me for this because you're going to go play the game. Well, yeah, of course. I mean, some great philosopher told us that before, that strategy. That's the technique. That's how you get that GC. So legitimately. I can't listen to you when your camera's out. Well, this will make sense. I don't know who you're talking to. I'm your conscience right now. Here we go, Joel. I'm your conscience. I need to take a medication. All right, so if you look at the play field, this will make total sense, okay? And you do this while you're in multi-ball, especially if you're in mayhem. If you look at the captive ball, what is there at the captive ball? Carnage. Right. There's also an infected. Yes. So you hit that twice, you'll get infected. Look at the scoop. There's two targets there. What are those targets for? Infected. So what you can do, if you just go hog wild and just spam that the whole entire time, you're going to build up your infected. You're going to get the doppelganger quickly. You're going to get to Rampage pretty quick, and that's going to give you loads of XP. You're going to build up a lot. And then every single time you miss those two targets, you hit the scoop. What's it doing? It's coming back on the fast lock, going through an in lane. So you're going to light your Mysteries a lot quicker. You're going to get all the above for more XP for everything. So there's just certain tactics that you can do, even while in multi-ball, that may not be just getting a jackpot. I think even the jackpots give you, what, 40 XP or somewhere right around there. So, yeah, it's a bit of a grind.
    65:07
    But that's what's interesting is I understand we played pinball in a very different way. But the way you're looking at this game, you look at it from points, but you're also, because you're looking at the speed run, you are how do I quickly and efficiently get my character leveled up as fast as possible. I mean, I'll be completely honest. I have shut my brain off completely from the points because there's so many obvious unbalanced things right now. It's almost that they're going to be balanced, so things are going to change. So there's no sense in, like, even when I told you guys about Carnage compared to Mayhem, that's going to be balanced because it has to. There's just no way it can. So if you're looking at this, like, to me, if you want to truly enjoy the game for what it is right now today, look at it from the XP standpoint and figure out how can I get through my levels, figure out how can I get to the next boss. so for me that's where I'm finding the enjoyment out of the game because I don't want to sit there and just do the Grendel exploit the whole time and feel awesome because I got 50 billion on it I mean it's fun the first time but then you know you don't want to do that continuously so a lot of these things will get patched up anyways but yeah I think I think it's great to look at it from the standpoint that you want to get to Null eventually so you're going to do the things properly to get the Null and to be leveled up high enough and so that's why if you're looking have from that perspective, there's just certain tactics you can do while you have a ball save on that is a little bit different than other games that doesn't involve just spamming jackpots the whole entire time. Because you do need to defeat a doppelganger because what happens when you do carnage and mayhem and a doppelganger, you light toxin team up, which can be worth pretty good XP as well. How do you do the team ups?
    66:49
    The team ups? The perks or the team ups? Like the sleeper and the miles and the hybrid. So sleeper you can get if you select flash from the beginning, or you can qualify him through infected. Okay. And then miles you get if you pick Peter. Or four-way combo. And then what is it, hybrid? Hybrid you have to beat all minor bosses. Yeah, and he's the most powerful thing in the game. And insanely powerful. You hit the button, it spots every shot on the play field, and instantly turns on a seven times play field multiplier. Which one was that? Hybrid. Hybrid, okay. Yeah, but to get them, you either A, get them from Mystery, which is crazy. I got him as a Mystery award, and Dwight was like, whoa, you got the – I haven't seen that. I was like, you coded it, you know. He's like, yeah, but it's just – that is extremely rare to get that through Mystery kind of thing. And it's super powerful. I mean, it's a seven times play field multiplier at your button. You just hit it whenever you want. And it spots every shot. But what I think is crazy is hearing the way that you are looking at this game as I just want to beat it faster. Like, beating it is not the goal. It is just you want to beat it faster than you did it before. To me, this game, when it showed up on my doorstep, was like, okay, I am confident I am going to beat this game. I don't have that confidence with any other pinball machine that's dropped off of my doorstep. I knew Cactus Canyon just because you guys and heckling and everybody saying the game's too easy. I was like, okay, this is a game that I better beat or I just suck. And then same thing with Toy Story. It's like that was just that understanding of like I better beat this game because people are saying it's too easy. It's too easy not to beat the game. And just to clarify, I beat the game because I beat 50% of it. Okay, we're just going to clear the air on that. so this game though I was like Venom this is clearly a game that if I put in the time it should get me to a point where I can beat this game even if I have to build up to 99 level I'm gonna beat this game so I was expecting a grind I was expecting it to be something that I would slowly chip away at and I will tell you honestly I beat the game twice and I've owned it a week and both times because of the speed run aspect of it the first time I beat it I was at level 45 and I my speed run time was like an hour and 15 minutes of play time and then last night when I beat it on stream I think I was level like 41 and my my play time counter was like an hour and two minutes of play time. So it not it really not that much of a grind And that surprising to me I was expecting it to be more And one of the things that was said I not saying that as a bad thing but in my mind, it's part of those like, okay, over the next month, I know I'm going to beat it again. That means I'm going to unlock my third character, and then I'm already looking at achievements. There are certain achievements of like beat Noel with Hulk, so clearly you have to unlock him, but then I have to beat him again as Hulk. So there are seven achievements that are beating Noel with all seven characters. So it's like, well, clearly I'm going to beat it seven times. But these are all things like my next goal is just going to be start chipping away at achievements. And it's just a weird thing to feel like there's a chance that this is a game that I actually might complete or feel like I've actually done everything. And it's because of the XP system and the fact that it holds my skill or holds my value. I don't know, if that wasn't there, do I think I could just start at level one and beat Noel in a normal three-ball game with extra balls? I don't necessarily think I could. It would be a challenge. It would be a big challenge for me to do that. Tom, what's up? So, Travis, what's your speed run?
    70:49
    My fastest one so far is 23 minutes, I think. Joel, you've got some work to do. We just round up to an hour and we're basically the same time. But I see that. But I know Travis and I, our skill levels are drastic. Right, of course. But I think that's cool that the code allows something that keeps him excited and me excited with very different play styles. Sure. I think I just wish that, and we kind of talked about this last podcast.
    71:15
    He was talking. Oh, was he? I don't want to be the guy that cut him off. No, I was just curious. Travis, have you completed, have you finished Null in like one game?
    71:29
    I finished Null two and a half times in one game. Okay. Because when you beat him, the game's not over. Right. No, I understand that. Right. Yeah. No, I, yeah. I played it without, with a burner profile and I got through it two and a half times. I got all the way back to Grindle. Is that Monica's profile? No. She won't let me play on the first play.
    71:55
    You unlock these characters like Wolverine and Hulk and stuff by beating Noel? Yep. Okay. Yep. And the thing with Noel, there's a very specific pattern you can follow to beat him, but I don't want to reveal that on the podcast. I'd rather people just play it on their own. I have a launch party probably next week, so you can tell me. I will tell you off podcast. Yeah, just watch my stream. I mean, I see it. I don't know if I followed Travis's dumb pattern, but I beat him. Also, here's the thing about Venom, and you guys know. We talk about pinball a lot off the podcast as well, so you guys know how my mind works. I like to look for sequences and patterns because if I'm going to catch a ball and I want to stay in a flow, I want to know where to go. Venom very much follows sequences down to a T, and that goes for whether you're doing your mini modes, whether you're doing your signature combos, whether you're doing host hurry up, there's a lot of things that you can keep doing. And that's the thing, the combos for each character, they stay the same. So if you hit, say, for instance, just anybody, it's left ramp, right? And then you hit right orbit. Well, that shot's going to be lit again at the left ramp, that same color. It's not going to shift to another shot. So it's very predictable in that way. and if you find a combo that you're really comfortable with, you could just spam it over and over and over again to get your locks.
    73:26
    Yeah, and that's the one thing that you said at the beginning, I feel like this is the easiest game Stern's made in a long time. And sure, there's speed, and if you miss, that ball's coming back at you quick. But the fast locks, it reminds me of when you guys were talking about Johannes and having magnets on the flippers because it doesn't matter how he shoots, He can get the ball under control immediately. And when you look at Venom, because of the fast locks, there are so many shots on the play field that end up putting the ball in the fast lock that you actually get a very consistent feed out of those fast locks. And the flippers, instead of them being drooped like on Deadpool or drooped like they were on Godzilla, they're actually up more, so it's a lot easier to trap up on the ball. so I as a very uncontrolled player feel a lot more in control and on this game than any other game that I've had in a long time so the fact that the shots are more open and the fact that the shots feel like you can get under control like to me it's if you're cradled up on the left flipper you can backhand that left ramp which what feeds your left flipper like in a very controlled manner because of the fast locks or same thing when you backhand the scoop with the right flipper It's going to immediately feed you right back to your – and if you do it right, you can just immediately cradle up and do it again. And that feeling of control, apparently this is what you guys do all the time. But this is a new feeling for me, and it really is neat. Like it's a cool – Baby's first ball track. Yeah, pretty much like baby's first cradle. Yeah, and it's just – I enjoy it. I think, too, the thing with the Pro, and I don't know how the Premium plays. I haven't got to play one yet, but with the pro, there's legitimately only one shot that you really have to be worried about, and that's if you're going on the left side of the horseshoe. That feed comes back around, and it hits off the top part of the sling. It hits a little clunky.
    75:24
    That's the only shot that's truly semi-dangerous in the game. Everything else, if you hit it, it's going to return back to a flipper every single time. And, you know, that's just how the game's made, which is perfectly fine. It's just be aware that if you're going to be playing it, if you can play under control, like any control player, they're going to carve this game up. And my fear is I don't know if this game will be in tournaments in the future outside of launch parties. And I don't know if it necessarily has to be. Not every single game needs to be this big-time tournament game. I think it's perfectly fine to have a pinball machine just be a pinball machine, just be something that people are going to just enjoy playing. So my fear is that if people try to put this in tournaments, especially high-level tournaments, well, what happens when you do droop the flippers or you put on a tight tilt, right? Have you turned the fast locks off yet? That's a new setting in the you can turn them off entirely. I mean, honestly, I feel like the fast locks make it easier to play. That's what I'm saying. If you turn them off. The flow just goes so much easier. It doesn't seem. I mean, like the first time you play it, you kind of have to get your timing down. But then when you get used to it, it's just the timing is easy to figure out. Just my fear is that if some tournament director out there bastardizes the game so bad that you're on level five after your first mayhem, then you've got to basically just grind out to get to level 10. And those minor bosses, it's not easy to beat them at level 10, level 15. It's not at all. And that's on default. Well, that's what I don't – that's my biggest argument right now is the fact that if you actually battle a minor boss by hitting, you know, filling out your path and getting into the battle, you're level 10, and you actually are just playing the boss, both of them have two phases, and you're – what did I say wrong? Travis is typing. Hello. What? What are you typing? Y'all froze. No, we're not. Tom, you there, right? I'm here. Yeah, it's freaking Travis. This guy. Okay, while he's trying to figure out his life. What I was saying was if you actually go down the path and play the minor battle, like the battles are hard. There's a lot of shots that are needed, and there's two phases to it. Like it's a lot of shots to beat that first, that minor villain or that minor battle if you actually play it. but if you go through the multi-ball, like he's saying, and you just happen to hit every shot on the play field and hit one super jackpot, boom, you just beat it. I don't like that. I don't like that it just seems like it's way easier. You can just avoid an entirely hard battle or an entirely hard mode by just hitting. What do you want, Travis? Travis, do you hear us yet? Are you there? You said everybody froze on my screen. I know, but now he's typing. Is he just being Travis? This is the problem, people. This is the problem with the listeners. I don't know if he's just messing with us or if he's actually having a problem.
    78:35
    But I don't know. I say we just keep going. I say we keep going. Or do I try to pause it for him? What do you think, listeners? Write us at TripleDreams.
    78:46
    Should we just talk through technical difficulties? Time to go to viewer questions. try to go, well, we're missing Travis. Yeah, Travis said he cannot hear us at all.
    78:58
    All right. I'm going to pause this. Sorry, listeners. Hopefully this is a seamless transition. We'll see how this goes.
    79:07
    Okay. We're back. I don't know if Travis did anything wrong, but he was frozen and we kept talking. And so we're just, you know, yep, we're here. We're here. I got a call from Loser Kid. I had to pick it up.
    79:23
    All right. What we were talking about, this is seamless for all the listeners. What we were talking about is my current complaint with Venom is the battles. The battles are pretty hard, especially at lower levels. And you said that. Like, you have to be at level 10 to do the first minor villain. And if you get into that battle, it's a two-phase battle. And there's a lot of shots you have to hit. It's timed. So if you run out of time, you lose the battle, and you've got to do your mini-modes again to get back into it. but it's a decent bit of work to actually get through that battle. You compare that, though, to Mayhem Multiball. You lock a ball, you get in, all you have to do is hit seven shots, and you hit a jackpot, and boom, you're spotted the battle. And I don't like that. Like, I think it's a very, like, clearly the way to do it is to have a really good Mayhem Multiball, and you can skip all those battles. Or you really only have to do one battle to get past that increment, that level. Right, well, and that's what they want you to do. They want you to get past that battle and then get on the Grindle. I mean, I've lost to the minor bosses at level 30. I know. They're hard. It's impossible to do. But what if instead, and I'm not, I mean, maybe I'll tell Dwight, but maybe instead of giving you the whole battle, it just, like, gives you a phase. Like, it gives you the first phase of the battle because there are two phases. So it's like, don't give me the whole battle, but make it so that when I get into it, because you did well in the multiball, it just makes that battle easier or it takes away a phase. You already started phase two. You know, sometimes I just don't, I just think there's just a very big difference between getting a jackpot in a multiball versus actually having to focus in on that battle, hit the specific shots. Some of the battles, the shots are roaming. Some of the shots are moving back and forth. I mean, it's just, it's a very different thing that you have to do with one ball that's very challenging versus a multi-ball where it's just hit every shot and then hit a jackpot. Right. Well, I would say keep in mind, too, that most likely that that rule is in there. Obviously, with the way that the fast locks are, if you look at the pictures with the minor bosses on them, it was meant for it to be this way from a very early stage. And I would say that they very much want you to get through the game, get the grindle, get the knoll, Then on top of that, it makes it easier to get the hybrid, too, that gives you your 7X in order to defeat all four bosses. Because if you have to play all four bosses on their own, that's going to be awfully hard to beat all four bosses unless you're well leveled up. You're not going to do it at a low level. But if you look at Foo Fighters, right? What if Foo Fighters, if you had a really good Overlord multiball, it just automatically spots you three cities?
    82:10
    Like, I don't like that. Right, but these aren't modes, though. Keep that in mind. These are battles, Joel. But the battles are the closest things to the modes that you have in the game. And that, to me, is where I'm getting the most fun in the game, is I enjoy the way it shoots. I enjoy the way it makes me feel because I actually feel like a pretty good player with the control that I have behind this. and I really do, the animations, the sound package is really good. Like, I'm having a lot of fun with the game. But where I'm enjoying, like, the moments, people ask that, where are the moments in the game? The moments are in the battles. The battles feel like a moment because it gets a little tense. It gets very serious. You've got to focus. I mean, Grendel's a lot of fun. Nola's a lot of fun. Those are where it's, that's where I'm having the most fun. And if you're telling me all of a sudden your multiball skips half of that, I don't want to skip it. That's where the fun's at. Tom, I think what I'm hearing here is Joel saying to Dwight, I want you to code this differently. I want different rules.
    83:07
    This isn't what I want, Dwight. Well, I don't know. This game and multiple on this game. How many bosses can you beat?
    83:16
    During mayhem, how many bosses have you beat? I've gotten through two before. So 50%. I think that's fine. I think getting through 50% is fine. It's hard enough to get three of them because you've got to go through all the jackpots three separate times and hit everything a lot. I think getting 50% of the way through is fine because then you're going to move on to another character anyways, right? And then you're going to decide whether or not you're going to fight what battle you want to fight at that point. Okay. Yeah, it's just such a unique experience. And I had a buddy of mine, shout out Sterling, with Balls of Steel, not forgetting that again.
    83:54
    He had reached out, and he was curious. You know, you've had Venom a little while now. What are your thoughts? And truly, I think this is an incredible location pin, and the reason I say that is because of the XP system and the leveling up system, there's no reason why you wouldn't put a few games on the game every time you go to the bar. Like, you might as well. I mean, maybe for you guys, because Travis can beat Noel two and a half times in one game. But for me, that it's going to take multiple games to get all the way up there, Might as well. Like, I'm going to go ahead and play the game, you know, one or two times, and even if all I do is walk away with 10 or 15 XP from that experience, like, that's fine. It'll start me off in a better position next time I hit start. And I really enjoy that. Like, I just, that's pulling me back in, and I'm really enjoying unlocking characters, because Hulk is a totally different experience. Wolverine, I was having a lot of fun with him last night, because Wolverine, he's really hard to kill in the comics, so his perk is extra long ball save, like way longer ball save. And that's a lot of fun. Like there are some really cool things that this unlocks, and I'm really drawn in to keep playing this game. And it's only .91, and I'm very curious to see what else they come out with because now this is a question for Travis. The end-all, be-all wizard mode is the, what is it? It's the planet. Klyntar. I think that's how you pronounce it. Yeah, Klyntar Multiball, which is kind of like Cowabunga and Turtles. Like there's seven things you have to do, seven or eight. And one of them is you have to beat Null. So is that – have you been anywhere close to that?
    85:31
    Yeah, so I don't know quite what's going on because I know for a fact I've done everything it's asked me to do on one of my profiles. But it's acting as if I don't have one of them completed.
    85:44
    So I don't know if it's a bug. I don't know if I just got to go back and do it again. I have no idea. But I know on one of them, I'm only one away.
    85:53
    And that's something you can do in, well, no, because the moment you do null, it wipes out all your other progress, like saved progress. So the game that you – you said you beat null two and a half times in one game. That was the one, yeah. In a perfect world, you'd beat null in ball one, And then you can spend balls two and three or your extra balls trying to pick away all the other crap to get to that multi-ball. But you better do it that game because as soon as you're wiped out, all your progression is wiped out after you do null.
    86:32
    I just know during that game, it did not let me be him anymore. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure why it happened. I'd have to just try it without the glass. Crap, are we frozen again? No, it's just you. So it's just you and your camera. All right, we're good. So I don't know. I mean, that's a weird thing about Venom. I just, at the end of the day, I mean, it's .91 code. There's a lot more to flesh out. Dwight is incredibly good with the choreography or the way the – I've really enjoyed the light show. I really like the sound package, four different sound packages based on your character. I really like the options. Like, it's a joy to stream. It's a joy to stream because I can attack it so many different ways. I can pick different characters. Every time I hit start, I'm either starting with a new character or I'm building up my XP and I'm getting a little further. What do you want, Travis? I just thought of something for a question for Tom because he's the only one that's played a premium out of us. Did you notice the shots changing at all? Did that affect the game for you at all or was it just kind of something that you were just like, okay, it's just another feature? See, I can't wait to play a premium because right now when you change hosts on a pro, all that's really changing are your perks, and it's changing where the combos or the mini modes are. That's really all that's changing. But the idea that the play field is actually changing so that my shots will be more difficult or whatever, Like, I'm looking forward to that to try to strategize the best way to attack it.
    88:13
    Because, yeah, certain – the way that the ball feeds is going to be totally different depending on what character. And I'm really looking forward to that. So my – for listeners that are in on an LE, if this is a team you're looking forward to, I think it's going to be a ton of fun when you get your LE and how different the game's going to feel depending on your character. But it just – this game feels totally different. I mean, we made a comment early on that Rick and Morty is just, it's its own thing. It's very unique. It's, you know, accept it for what it is. That's kind of where I'm at with Venom. It is a very unique thing, and I'm really enjoying it.
    88:50
    But this whole XP system, I'm loving it, but it makes me wonder, you know, okay, Foo Fighters. If Foo Fighters had XP, so every single time I hit start, it's like, well, I beat those two cities last time I played, so that I'm only one city away from DC or whatever. It's like if every game had this type of this safe state kind of progression thing, yeah, then you theoretically could see the end of every game. And is that necessarily something I want in pinball?
    89:18
    Not necessarily because I like the challenge of having to do it all in one go. But with that said, I am. I am having a lot of fun with this, even though I've seen everything in the game at this point that's coded in it, but I'm looking forward to doing it again. So I don't know.
    89:35
    That's where I'm at. I'm enjoying it. Like this game is, for watching the initial stream and the initial pictures, I thought the game looked kind of bare. I thought it would be kind of boring, the shot layout, but the actual shooting of it's a lot of fun, and it makes me feel like I'm a decent player, and I really enjoy the control aspect. But the code that Dwight's given in and the many different options that you can take and the ways to tackle it keeps pulling me back in. So I'm having a lot of fun. There you go. There's my super long-winded review. You like Venom. That's what you're trying to say. I'm enjoying it. And my brother, that's one thing that I think is funny. My brother made the comment, he thinks it's better than Foo Fighters. Like, my brother really is having fun on Venom. And what's funny is he's currently level, like, 18 or 19, and he still hasn't beaten a minor villain because the mini modes, the combos are challenging for him to get through that. How many games have you guys played? I mean, we've streamed it twice, and every time we stream, it's two hours. So, I mean, that kind of gives you an idea, too. And I think a large part of it, so when we talk about beating Noel quickly and all this and that, I would tell the listeners to keep in mind that there's varying degrees of skill out there for pinball players, right? You have your just God-tier, S-tier players like Escher and Zoller and Zmak and Johannes. Well, the thing is, is that if you take high level players and you put them on a default pin, they're going to see the wizard mode fairly quickly. That's just the way it is. But the large majority of players out there are average to below average players. There's a lot of people that collect pinball machines that are casual to the point that they won't see all the features on their game, no matter how long they have it. I've had to explain to people that there's a diverter on their Rush LE that they've had for over a year and a half. So, you know, that's perfectly fine. It's not everybody gets into pinball to know every single little nuance of the game and know all the rules and be elite level with their flipper skills, so on and so forth. I know I play Xbox video games all the time. It's not like I'm going to go play MLG and go do Call of Duty against Nadeshot or somebody like that. You know, so I think something like the XP system, I think, is cool for those players overall. And there's a lot of those players out there. So I think when people start discovering this game on location, they're going to find, oh, this is different. This is interesting. I'm seeing different parts of the game that I haven't got to see with other games before. And we talked about this a couple of podcasts ago. I personally would like to see an XP system across the board. I think it would look cool. But at the same time, I do respect that the individual software people that are associated with different games, they may not want that with their game. They may have a totally different vision.
    92:31
    But I do think that if a manufacturer is able to adopt this across the board, then able people to know that when they're getting a game, they could play through it eventually. They'll eventually get to see the end game to it without it just being an option at the start button, just to skip everything. So something in that is pretty cool for people to know that they can hit start, they can play the game, and then they will see a wizard mode on it. And not just a mini wizard mode, they'll see the very end of the game. And something like that I think is unique. And I can tell for my kids that's something that they're firmly interested in. Like I have a 12-year-old that plays, and he can make it to a couple of wizard modes on certain games. But my 13-year-old, he hardly ever plays, but this game, he wants to play all the time because he's thinking to himself, I can actually see the end of the game. So something like that, an extreme casual like that, yeah, I think that'll be a big deal for people, and I'm interested to see how that plays out. When these launch parties go off in mid-October and people start seeing this game more and more, I'm curious to see what that does for it. Yeah, and that's something I said to my brother. He's technically played it almost as much as I had, and, you know, I've beaten Noel twice, and he has gotten into, like, last night he got into a battle, and he was one shot away from finishing the battle. But, like, it was, you could tell he was into it. He was into it. It was a rush. Like, he's ready, though, but what's cool is, like, he can get back to that point, and he'll be more experienced than before, so that battle's going to be a little easier. Like, that's something that I'm excited to see Jared, over the course of me owning this game, he's going to work his way up and hopefully get all the way to Noel. and to see that satisfaction when he hits that final blow is going to be really, really cool. And that's something, I mean, that's, you don't get, there's no other pin like that that's going to give some player that type of thing. Tom, when are you going to go play Venom next?
    94:31
    I saw McCarty putting up some scores, putting them on Facebook. Yeah, probably next week sometime. Okay, good. You've got to defend the honor of our podcast. Yeah. It's tribal. Well, I think it just says a lot, though, about the game because, yeah, the fact that, Travis, you're enjoying it.
    94:50
    I enjoy the speedrun. Yeah, you're enjoying the speedrun aspect of it. Like, that is unique. You enjoy it for what it is. Well, because, like I said, it's something different to where if I try to speedrun Planet X, I'm going to F that up so many times that it's just going to drive me insane. And that's why I was even asking you, Joel, that is there any way, because I was trying to figure this out. If I know that I messed up my speed run, should I just wipe out all my progress and start from the beginning? And right now it's not in the game. I think something like that's probably coming at some point. I hope it is because the speed run aspect of it is pretty cool. And I think that's something that people could go to an arcade and take $10 and say, I'm going to go for a legit speed run on this game and grind it out. You can do that. That is entirely possible. There's an achievement on there for 35 minutes. You get gold. So it's doable. I will tell you, you know, Half Shell Challenge, which is a speed run mode within Turtles, that challenge, I played the heck out of that until I got under 100 seconds because that was a goal. And I can see this being the same thing. I find a speed run, in my mind, a whole lot more entertaining than just to set a bigger GC. You know, like there's, I don't know. That's just me. So I'm excited. I love that Stern gave Dwight the freedom to explore this avenue. I'm excited to see where this goes, the whole progress or XP system, you know, or level system and how it's built into a pin.
    96:19
    So overall, I'm just, I'm very, I'm really enjoying this game. I'm really enjoying this game, and I'm excited to play it while I have it. And we'll see. We'll see, you know, when it leaves, if that's something like, crap, I miss that. I miss having that. or if this is just the beginning or the first of many games here on out that are going to have some sort of experience or level type system. So I think that was a pretty good coverage of our Venom experience so far.
    96:46
    But, yeah, that was thing one on our list, right? Yeah, our list is gone because we had to restart. I think thing two was tournament talk. Was that right?
    96:59
    Yes, that was. Well, yeah, we've played some tournaments recently, Joel. Have you played any pinball tournaments?
    97:07
    Nope, still haven't. That's a no. Haven't done that. I know it's been a while since we recorded, so we can start with, well, Travis, I know you went to Seattle. I know that was a thing. Yep, went to Seattle, and I ended up taking seventh. It would have been fifth, but Z-Mac screwed me over by beating me on the very last game. I swear. World champion. Kicking my ass. that stood out, you know, to you?
    97:35
    I mean, I would say that was my first time to ever be in Washington. So the weather was awesome. I like the huge-ass trees. That's different. You don't see those in Oklahoma or Missouri.
    97:47
    So that was fun. It was different, though. We played a pop-a-card format, but it was two cards. So for those that don't know, that's where you play five games, and you have to play all the games in a row. and they all go onto one card. We had to do that twice. And you can play as many cards as you want. But oddly enough, it actually made it easier to qualify. It just felt easier compared to something like Indus to where if you mess up even once, you're just fully screwed. When you say play it twice, are you playing ten games in a row or you just do five games in a row that you qualify? Yeah, it's two cards. Okay. Yeah, your two best cards. So I can play ten cards and whatever is my two best cards. Got it. Do you know what a card is, Joel? I do. I remember. That's what he just explained a little bit. We're going to bring Joel to EnDisc with us one day. It's the consistency. That's the main thing. It's not a pump and dump where you're just like, let me work on my one score on one game. You do pumping, but you don't do any dumping.
    98:50
    If you dump, then you're voiding, requeue, new card. You don't want to do that because each card is $20 or something like that. But, no, it was a lot of fun. Anybody that is into tournament pinball, I would say check out the Northwest Pinball Championships up there in Seattle.
    99:07
    The prize pools were huge, too, which was awesome. I mean, it was something like $3,000-some-odd for first place. And I think I got $600 or $700 for taking fifth through eighth. So it definitely was pretty good prize pools out there. Nice people as well. Great community. It was just a lot of fun. Cool. And then I know, Tom, you recently, just last weekend, played at Cleveland. I know that was a – you qualified high. I remember going into – watching it going into finals. You were in a good spot. You had a bye and all that stuff.
    99:41
    And I tanked. You tanked. No, I mean, there were a lot of good players there. But I really started out my playoff run bad. I took two lasts on my first two games, and I ended up winning the Sega Godzilla game, not the Stern Godzilla game. And had a tiebreaker with Bill Mason, and the tiebreaker was on Rush, and so you would have thought I would have won it. But Bill crushed it and knocked me out of the tournament.
    100:28
    Yay. No, it was all good. I had fun. Well, that's what matters, right? I mean, it seems like the competition was good. The stream was odd because they're, yeah, the streaming that weekend was a little odd. I would just say that. Well, they had two people streaming. Oh, that was sarcasm. Yeah. Was it throwing you off that there was two separate streams going on and then somebody was doing the commentary from directly behind the players? Yeah. Is that what you're talking about? I didn't have an opportunity to watch a ton of it, but I remember I went to tune in and I'm like, what's going on? Like, this is women's right now? Yeah. It's like classic. I had multiple people texting me and they were like, where's the main? Where's the classics or whatever it was? And so I had to tell them that there's two separate ones. Apparently they had no idea they were watching the women's event the whole entire time. And then I got confused because I didn't realize there was a women's event because I just flipped on Twitch. And I didn't bother really reading through anything. I just saw, oh, wait, that looks like that's the classics being played right there or whatever. I just clicked on it without thinking because I don't have the volume on. So, yeah, that was apparently that was kind of confusing for everybody. But then when I realized what was going on, it was kind of entertaining watching somebody do the commentary directly behind the players here in Maine, like with a little lav mic right there. I think we need to do that someday, Tom. Just be right behind everyone. Just roll around with the camera, just commentate his gameplay. It's like golf commentary, you know, when they're off to the side. That's exactly what it was. So are you stepping up to the pin here?
    102:11
    I'm ready. Sign me up. Sign me up on that. Oh, look, he plunged and got zero points. I mean, did you win a lot of money, Tom? I was pretty good out there at Cleveland.
    102:22
    There were Northwest caliber, but. Did you make enough to pay for dinner? Yeah. I mean, I won 80 bucks for nine plays. Shout out to the Bellas. And this was one of the first tournaments you played in a while without Neal. And I think the verdict was he's a huge distraction and you play better without him. That's what we're hearing. It was amazing. I must have had 50 people come up to me like, where is Neil? And I was just like, Neil is dead. He's at college. I'm like, he's in college. He's got to concentrate on that. Daddy's turned to rain.
    103:02
    He'll come back to Indus. So what's your next tournament then, Tom, that you have coming up? Strangely enough, I leave tomorrow morning for pinball at the lab Oh, that's out in California, right? Correct That's Carl D'Angelo, baby Yeah, Jim Belcedo, too Okay, all right Well, I bet that stream will be good I can count on that No, no, no No knock on the other streamers What are you saying? But this was He's saying the person that streams all the Fox City stuff at Distribute 2 is just shit I think that's what Noah's trying to say. What I'm saying, I'm just saying we are spoiled. I didn't stream anything. We are spoiled. But there are different tiers of tournament streams. Some are better than others. But at the end of the day, the fact that a lot of these tournaments are streamed, we are spoiled by that. So when I hear, hey, one of you guys are in stream, okay, the kids are in bed, this or that, I assume I'm going to be able to pull out the phone,
    104:00
    hop on Twitch and find whoever's streaming that, and I'm going to be able to watch it. Lucky that we go out and stream these damn tournaments. Yeah. Thank your pinball streamer next time. Next time you're at a tournament, thank the person streaming it. I did want to say the Northwest Pinball Championship.
    104:19
    One hell of a game, like, at the end on Congo. I mean, that was freaking amazing. Like, you had Jim Balcedo, like, killing it, and then you have Kaylee George coming back and killing it Go back and watch that It was on what was it Geek gamer TV Yeah Like that And I a little salty too because there was a hoops game in the quarter finals That was the most epic hoops game that I can remember for a tournament. And it's an Escher, Leslie Ruckman, um, Jim Melcito and Carl D'Angelo. And it was not on stream. I was very disappointed by that because El Cito put up 10 million, uh, on his last ball to come all the way back in order to, I think that was to advance or to do something, and Leslie just killed it as well. So, yeah, there's just a lot of great pinball being played out there.
    105:14
    Well, good. Is that enough tournament talk for you, Joel? I mean, we can talk about how you didn't come back and defend your 89th place position. I sure didn't. You know, one thing that wasn't mentioned, No, I mentioned it, obviously, at the beginning was, you know, we have this dog now, and I still have two children. And so me finding time to leave the wife, the children, and now a dog at home for me to do what I want to do is – it's hard to do. You see what's going on here, Tom? I am locked in on Pinball Expo, and I'm not going to do anything to break that. I don't know. I remember, didn't Josh Sharp say that he would actually make an exception? that you can get coaching during Expo?
    106:01
    Can I still sign up for that? I don't know. Yeah, there's no cap. You can walk in. Of course you can. That's my app. That would be hilarious. I would stay for Expo to watch that. I'm not planning on going, but if you do that, I would watch it. Would you coach? Would the Expo format change? Would you really want me trying to coach you? Because I would just troll you and say the wrong thing. What were you saying? Has the Expo format changed? Yeah, slightly. Like there's qualifying on Wednesday now, and the number of entries, I think, increased. Is it 25 entries in the top 16 it used or something like that? I thought I saw somebody post something about that. Something like that. There you go, Joel. I'll look into that.
    106:47
    Everybody makes finals, Joel. Everybody makes finals. What are your opinions on pump and dumps? There is not a pump and dump in Wisconsin, and I think there should be. I think Triple Drain is going to have to host a pump and dump. That's what it is. They're going to have to. I see a line of games right behind you there, Tom.
    107:10
    It might get a little cramped, but we could try. Put them in the garage. I'm trying to think of other tournaments real quick. Oh, UK Open. I'm going to that. I leave on Monday. Today is Thursday night, and I leave Monday for London. The UK pinball open, right? Yep, our buddy, Neil McRae. The one, the only. What are you looking at right now? Are you trying to buy another dog so you don't have to go to tournaments? We have questions, and I was trying to pull them up. Oh, you're right. We're supposed to answer questions. I'm sorry I look distracted. No, go ahead.
    107:46
    I'm not being away from Neil McRae. Neil McRae, I'm glad you're flying. Glad you're flying across country. Neil McRae is going to do an awesome job. I'm not flying across the country. I'm flying across the ocean, Joel. Yeah, yeah. I will repeat myself.
    108:01
    Neil McCray is coming to pinball at the lab. He goes to everything. It's crazy. Is he really? He does not go to everything. He goes to a lot. For a guy that lives across the ocean, he comes to a lot of tournaments in North America. He's got some change.
    108:18
    Well, that'll be exciting. And, yes, check that out. That'll be a fun stream to watch. I know the hours will be a little more challenging because that'll be overseas. but Neil always puts on a good show. That'll be really interesting to watch. Pinball at the Lab is going to be awesome. That'll be a lot of fun to watch. I know Carl said he had like an ear infection or something, so I hope he gets better and can play because he's awesome to watch.
    108:40
    So, yeah, there's a lot of tournament fun coming up, and I'm looking forward to that. And, yeah, just looking at the date, I mean, it's going to be roughly a month before Pinball Expo, So hopefully we can record again before then to kind of do a what? What about Super Series? Oh, are you going to be at it earlier?
    108:58
    When's Super Series? Is that early October? Yeah, it's like mid-October. Joel, if you're coming to Expo, are you going to be at the Stern Pro Circuit finals? Are you coming to that? Is that at Josh's house? No, it's that interium. It's open to the public. Oh, it's the Wednesday? Yeah. I don't know yet when I'm going up, but that could be fun. If you're in the area, I would like to make a swing on the way to say hello to Travis. I'm playing in the event, Joel. Yes, please. You can show up. You can even play for me if you want to.
    109:34
    I don't know if that's legal, Travis. Although the other competitors might allow it. I have a wild card right here. You guys are in trouble. We're playing all five games on Venom. Can't wait. Joel's trying to log into his insider. Yeah, where do I – how do I bring – oh, just to clarify that real quick. There was – I was listening to the Same Tilt Pinball podcast. This is dumb. You need to wait. I need to log in. Bruce Nightingale – that's right. That's his lesson. Bruce was complaining. He's like, I think it's dumb because I don't want to be in a tournament and somebody walk up and log in and just beat me because they have more experience points.
    110:13
    Dwight was quick to point out – There's a quick fix for that. Well, yeah, tournament mode, it doesn't have it. But take out the damn dongles. That would work, too. But Dwight did say you don't score more points with higher XP. Like, it's not like somebody just logs in and immediately scores more points. But I could see there is a benefit, though. If I log in, I'm already level 10. To the Grindle. Yeah, you can get further. I'm already at level 30. Let's go.
    110:40
    But there is a new setting for it, though, that you can make it to where it's competition until you turn the game off. So no matter what you do It'll stay in competition Yeah, that's pretty slick Smart move Alright Questions I'm going to start with Patreon Let's just do some quick math We're at 31 minutes of our second recording An hour and 20 of our first So we're already at an hour 50 Of recording here So we probably shouldn't go too much longer No, we'll go as long as we need If people have questions Tom's right answer. We're going to start with a very short, easy, simple question here. No. With the economy the way it is, do we see some pinball companies close their doors in the next two years? Yes. Also, with new pinball mystery companies on the verge of revealing, will there be any market share for them? They're screwed.
    111:36
    I think he's answered well. I agree. This is a rough time to start a brand new pinball company. And unless you come out with a crazy killer theme or a crazy killer remake, it's going to be really hard to get your foot in the door.
    111:54
    And, yes, I feel like out of some of the companies that are currently manufacturing games, some of them have kind of struggled the last year or so. And I don't know. I don't know how long you can struggle before your doors get shut. What was the question again? Is there dealers and distributors that will go or manufacturers? No, this was pinball companies. Manufacturers. Well, pinball companies could extend. I mean, pinball manufacturers, I think there's a chance, yes, we could potentially lose a pinball manufacturer in the next year or two.
    112:23
    I think distributors, like Travis is hinting at, there's a lot of distributors out there that are stuck on a lot of allocation. And if all your money is tied up in the pins that you're not selling right now, then you're in trouble. It's the law of averages of any business. You know, you go through a downswing, not everybody comes out of that. There's going to be people that will tap out. They just don't want to mess with it anymore. And that's just the nature of business. Yeah.
    112:50
    Brian Cosner, do you have one favorite piece of clothing pinball related that you wear on a regular basis?
    112:56
    I wear the CPN hat a lot because I like the way it fits. I also have a three quarter sleeve shirt from electric battlecade that I'm a big fan of. not to mention every bit of triple drain merch.
    113:10
    Yeah. We'll go with that. Travis, you wear your triple drain hat a lot. I did. And then my son took it from me. Now he wears it all the time. I need to order another one. Um, I'll plug it for you, Tom, a new Fox cities logo. There's a new Fox cities logo out there. So, so there's some new Fox cities merch. So, uh, update your merch game. Um, all the people that want to support Fox cities.
    113:34
    Um, thanks. All right. You're welcome. Tony V, since the arcade nerds are venturing into pinball, why don't you talk about AtGames Legend Pinball 4K, Adam's Family-themed V-Pin. There's a new, it's kind of a smaller V-Pin that was released that is themed after Adam's Family with a bunch of V-Pin games on it. Visual pinball is like porn.
    113:57
    It's just not the same. Well, okay. Is this like a real product, or what is it? Yeah, this is a real thing you can buy. It's kind of like how, yeah. Do I have to be 18 to play it? No, there's no relationship with porn.
    114:15
    It's kind of like the arcade one-ups for arcade games, but this is kind of smaller virtual pins. So you can go to Costco. Yeah, it gives you a taste of pinball. But that's my thing is I think, is it good for the hobby? Probably, because I think it's giving people a taste of pinball. And if they enjoy that, they may want to go one further and get a home pin or get a home edition. Or go to their local bar and play actual pinball. There's nothing wrong with it. I wish I had a legitimate virtual pin at my house just so I could load up all kinds of different games and go through the rule sets and stuff like that for tournaments, games that I'm not familiar with. Well, you can do that without having a virtual pin, and you just do it on your computer or the Xbox. I mean, you're playing with a controller, but you can still learn rule sets that way. I can get any pen on my Xbox?
    115:10
    I know you definitely can on PC. So the answer is no. PC you can. PC you can? Well, yeah, like visual pinball and all that. Oh, yes.
    115:22
    Okay, so that was Patreon. Thank you to all of our Patreon supporters. Really appreciate that. If you want to support us, check us out, Triple Drain on Patreon. Support us that way. Thank you for supporting Joel. Thank you for supporting us. Thank you for getting Joel another dog. Much appreciated.
    115:41
    We have one. Dog food is not cheap, people. It is not cheap. Joel wanted to do lunchboxes. We could have done doggy food toys. Joel does not pick up his own dog's excrement. So he hires somebody to do that, and you need to support that. But currently the excrements are more inside the house than they are outside the house. And so it is all getting picked up. The maid is pissed. When I finished my stream yesterday, I looked down. It was 1155. It was close to midnight. And I got a text from my wife, and it said, the dog has shit everywhere in our bedroom, and it is not solid.
    116:20
    I need you up here now. So I said, all right. I said, it looks like I'm shutting down the stream. And two days prior, she had bought a, luckily, like a carpet cleaner vacuum, like one of the liquid ones. And so, I mean, that cleaned it right up. But it was a – Is there a recording of that somewhere, then? What? On stream? Like on YouTube? Can you – Yeah, just go to my live stream and look at the end. That's how I ended the stream. Did you just read it? I know what I'm doing tonight. Yep. Well, I didn't know. I didn't wheel the rig into the bedroom to show off all the landmines. Did she just leave it like that? That's all she sent me. That's all the text I got. Joel's live streaming on Facebook. He's like, there's shit everywhere. I went up there, and it was rough. It was a bad spot. Joel's live. I'm in bed. He's streaming.
    117:15
    I can smell it, but I'm not going to worry about it. I'm going to wait until he's done. I smelled it as soon as I got to the first level. We're talking about a second level is where it at. It was something. So when is the dog going back? I'm wondering. I will tell you that it was just a few days in, and my wife sent me a text, and she goes, I will admit it. I made a mistake. We probably shouldn't have got this dog at this time.
    117:43
    We could return it, but we're not going to get our money back. I'm like, that's not. Think about how much carpet you're going to stay. At this point, it's not one of your kids. You shall pass, Joel. I know. Alright He's just trying to avoid coming to tournaments Tom He's not going to get rid of this dog I just don't have You have to train your dog to go outside We are trying As much as possible to avoid tournament pinball We will continue To clean up dog shit Don's Pinball Podcast where I know pinball manufacturers Printing on the undersides of the playfield I think Deep Root had done that Or there's more than one And look how well Yeah, there's value in your assembly, but after that, you don't need it.
    118:35
    Didn't Gottlieb, like they used to put like where the mechs go? Yeah, I could see it's not a value for the customer. It's a value for your assembly line, and that's. Yeah, I mean, let's cut some costs somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Patrick here, are the JJP add-ons for Godfather LE pissing off CE buyers? Yep, we talked about that a little bit. Does Zach love his P3 or just not? I don't know. That's a Zach question.
    119:10
    Flippin' Out has one that he got in on trade, and Zach's been very vocal about his views on P3 before, so we'll see how that goes.
    119:17
    Is Venom Pro an empty game compared to the premium? I was expecting that, or I was expecting it to feel that way, But I don't, like I really, I'm really not. I'm really having a lot of fun with the Pro. So I'm looking forward to the Premium being that much better.
    119:35
    Is the pinball balloon deflating? We kind of already talked about it a little bit. What pins are holding their value? And then what themes would be an instant buy for each of you if it's released? So our pins, what pins are holding their value? How about that? Do we know?
    119:51
    Not a lot, I would think. I think ultra rare stuff is. I don't know. Travis, you probably know better. Sounds like Pirates of the Caribbean, you know, JJP's. That game still seems to be really high. I mean, it's still really high, but I don't think it's anywhere near what it was. I would six months to a year ago. Right. I would say generally everything is starting to go down. I've even seen Godzilla premiums priced at Matt Pricing. and you never saw that in the past couple of years. So, yeah, I think that prices are just generally coming down and everything. And the one thing to really keep an eye on is what the used market is going to be. I'm seeing pros at around $5,000, $5,200 right now. And I don't remember even seeing it at that price, except for when MSRP used to be $58.99 or somewhere right around there, where you'd find one for about $800 less. But, yeah, that's pretty crazy because it's $69.99 is the price point for a pro. So when you're seeing some of these used games show up for between $5,000 and $5,500, I think a lot of them will settle in at $5,500 too because you see so many going out there. So many are going out to breweries. Supply and demand.
    121:14
    There's so much supply. It's just, yeah, it's going to happen. so the other question there what teams would be an instant buy for each of you if released to me my dream team was Turtles that's already happened but Batman the Animated Series would be if they ever did a Batman the Animated Series version of the game I'd be all over it otherwise I know I'm a big Blade Runner fan but I don't know how they'd do that Mad Max would be one that I think would be an awesome pinball machine so those are the ones at the top of my list Tom has rushed Tom's ready to die happy man I was just going to say I got a couple like Matrix would be huge Harry Potter of course um Banpin I'd like to see a Van Halen um yeah sure Superman and Travis you're what like Mountain Dew the pin that would be your Supreme 2 I would do South Park, Matrix and Red Hot Chili Peppers oh that's Monica Red Hot Chili Peppers you're locked in doesn't matter yeah if it's a Super Alley I'm totally screwed alright what else do we have Neil McCrae was talking about UK Open we talked about that definitely check that out that will be streamed on Backhand Pinball on Twitch definitely check that Matt McCarthy games that are not good for competitive play. McCarty. My bad. I threw an H in there. I think he's a Patreon supporter too. I threw an H in there. Fucking that up, Joel. I threw an H in there. I would like to hear Tom and Travis's thought on what makes a game bad for competition.
    123:02
    Any game with a shot that's repeatable 50 times and you can score a bunch of points on it is bad for competition.
    123:12
    Agreed. Something like that. But just anything to where there's scoring imbalances, that's just incredibly noticeable. I mean, it's hard to get a pin that's just completely balanced, but we're talking about something that's so egregious that you just completely ignore everything else on a game. And you'll sometimes see that on older games, which is fine. It is what it is, but if you see it on a modern game, then that's no bueno. You don't want to see that. Yeah. Yep. Or I know, what is it, Police Force, where it has the ability to steal another player's score or play for, like the catch-up. It came up recently. Yeah, Bowden did that. Stephen Bowden, yeah. There's stuff like that that's interesting. It was the first time that was ever done at District 82, which is crazy as well. But it's not the easiest thing to do because he has it set so high. You've got to hit the ramp like eight times in a row. and it's enough that they let them play it right that it's in the tournament like oh so even though that is kind of a crazy rule you just feel I mean it would be nice if somebody could actually like come up with a new code for that game I think that game would be fun to play in a tournament but it's just not unless you bastardize the middle ramp and, you know, take away that scoring option.
    124:48
    All right. And that's something that I know when I got into this hobby, realizing there are certain games that are like Indiana Jones. Indiana Jones, some people just freaking love Indiana Jones and they think it's the greatest game ever made. But I've never seen it in a tournament, though, and that's because it's like it's not a good tournament pin. for some reason. The Williams game? Yeah. That's fine. It's fine? I think. It's fine. I'm trying to think of a certain one as the one that's kind of... Certain one's horrible for tournaments.
    125:25
    Well, I was trying to think of a... There was some game that I remember it's like it's loved by the majority of people, but it's rare that it's in a tournament just because it's not balanced well. Or it's just very one thing, like you're saying. Every player's going to be doing the same tactic. They're ignoring 95% of the game. They're only going to do one thing the whole time, which isn't very fun.
    125:50
    Speaking of tournament, Colin's asking, has anybody in a tournament with people swapping out flippers for lightning flippers, has anybody ever put banana flippers on a game that shouldn't have banana flippers just to mess with it? Have either of you guys experienced that? I have not. Not in a high-level tournament. I've seen it in a home tournament, and it was hilarity ensue. But, yeah, not out in the general public.
    126:18
    All right. For you two, one overrated and one underrated game for tournament play. That's a good question. Who asked that one?
    126:31
    Tom. What does it mean? That's a very good question. Kitty? Kitty. What did you just say? C-E-C-K-I-T-T-I. Oh, I got you. Okay. Let's see. One underrated and one overrated. I'm so sorry, Tom. I don't know. I don't know how to say your last name.
    126:56
    That is such a tough question. That's very tough. Well, you think about that while you're thinking about it. But Cohen had asked, do I buy the World Cup Soccer 94, which is 400 miles from my house, or do I buy a Dirty Harry, which is 40 miles from my house? Both are the same price.
    127:15
    I would say Dirty Harry, personally. I like both games. I just think World Cup Soccer, it's fun for what it is. But Dirty Harry, though it has a lot more nuance, I think a player could appreciate a lot more, especially if you're only traveling 40 miles for it. It's the same price. Sure. And then the follow-up is, or do I wait for the new L one? So I think that's probably the right answer. Well, you didn't say that. I know. But I would have been between the two. In that case, you just get both Dirty Harry and World Cup Soccer then, and you just wait. It's the only choice. Well, that's about it. Somebody asked us to talk about toothpaste. You know, I'm a Sensodyne kind of guy now because, you know. Wait, wait. No, Mr. Dennis. What? You know, all the... I am not fielding Dennis questions. All of the toothpaste commercials say nine out of ten, Dennis recommend. If you ask me a Dennis question, I am on the clock, and I am getting paid for it. I just want to hear a recommended toothpaste. That's it. Nine out of ten, Dennis recommend. I'm technically working for a little palm, and I'm not getting paid right now. I do Colgate Total. There you go. That's what we give out at our office.
    128:33
    Whoever does that, we're going to invoice them. Yeah, Wayne Seeger. That'll be the last dental question I answer. Unless you're paying me for the advice.
    128:46
    Do you want me to try to get a sponsorship from Colgate for this show? Should be making a lot more money. Well, we're going to end that. We had some really good questions here. All right. I got my underrated and overrated ones. Let's hear it. Okay. All right. I think underrated for me would be Black Knight, Border Rage. I think in a tournament, it's a lot of fun. It's got risk-reward because, obviously, you have to hit risky shots just to light modes, right? And then you've got to hit risky shots in order to light your 2x multiplier. so there's certain things that you can do on that game that it's not always safe so for me that makes a fun tournament pin and I wish you could see it a lot more in tournaments I got used to playing that a lot down in Oakland City and I just remember I played in finals too at the Northwest Pinball up there in Seattle also so I think that's a very underrated tournament pin if somebody wants If you get a hold of one, then that's a fun game to play.
    129:50
    Overrate it, I would say, and I love this game too, but I will probably say it's overrate it because it's just played out so much. Probably Attack from Mars.
    130:01
    And I say that somebody that would pick it all the time just because it's very much hitting the same shots over and over and over again, just getting the total annihilation, using that just to pick off ships if they're open, and then if you get into your multiball and you happen to get a super jackpot, well, then you're all in on multiball all day because those jackpots are built up so high. So, yeah, I don't know. I'd probably go on a limb and say overrate it for tournaments just because it's just played out so darn much. But it's still a lot of fun, though. Oh, you guys are going to love this.
    130:37
    Underrated Rush. No, no, no. Underrated WWE WrestleMania. No. What? Everybody hates that fucking game. But I love it because I can kick everybody's ass on it. So therefore, it should be used in every tournament. Okay. And then overrated, everybody's going to hate me for this, Godzilla.
    131:05
    Oh, Keith Hillman right in, Adam. Yeah. Sorry, Keith. Why? No, I'm just, well, one, it's in every tournament. like you can't go to a tournament without it being in and second I just don't like the mini wizard modes people get in them and they're so long I just think the game plays really long that's why I'm saying that and is it really I've seen that most of the time when Godzilla is on stream you know you're having a long game And then it's set up, you know, otherwise you have to set it up so brutal that it's not even fun to play. Yeah. So trying to find that balance between how do I make it an appropriate length but still make the game fun. Yeah. I see it. Okay. Other than that, I mean, game's awesome. Yeah. Cool. What about you, Joel? Yeah. I don't know. You got one turn under your belt? What game was underrated? What game was overrated? I mean, I'm just going to ride that Turtles is still an underrated pin. You know, it's too good. It's a lot of fun. I like seeing it. I also really like seeing people play it in tournament because it's very clear to see people that know how to play it and people that don't because you're not going to be rewarded points in that game unless you know what you're doing.
    132:37
    And that was in Cleave Pin, which I played. that's underrated overrated I don't know I don't I just yeah I would believe it or not I know Attack from Mars I'm pretty sure was in that I will agree with that because that is a game that I see a lot of I see it in a lot of tournaments I see it played a lot and I know it's a good game but it's just I don't know it just seems like the layout is It's easy for people to blow that up, and so it's another game that can be very long and very samey. And you know what's hilarious about this, Joel?
    133:19
    I am TDing an event this weekend for one of my sons. He wanted to have his birthday party down in Oakland City, and guess what is in the freaking tournament? Turtles. Attack from Mars. And guess who put it in the tournament? You. I did, yes. So it's like It's reliable but yeah Now I want to take it out I think I want to take it back No I mean it's a good game I think it's a good game It's just very much same-sies I guess But you could technically say that for any game But I don't know It just feels like it's more the same Just over and over and over again I think that's why I like Stranger Things better than Attack from Mars Because I feel like I'm actually doing Different things even though the layouts are very similar At least I feel like I'm playing the modes. I feel like I have a reason to do different things on that pin as opposed to just blindly hit shots. Just wait until I get into total annihilation or isolation for that game. But what I think is funny is, I mean, at Pinball Expo, or not, Texas, Texas Pinball Expo, I remember watching that tournament, and it's the difference between Godzilla when you guys were playing that. I mean, I know Travis, you were still in Carl D'Angelo. I forget who the others. That's when. Bowen, that's right.
    134:40
    And to see you guys play Godzilla and understand how complex that game is and the fact that you guys, it's like, what are they going to do? How are you going to adapt to this? What strategy are they going to pull? And how entertaining that was. but then also the very next game, Taxi, where it's very obvious you know what to do, but I was still just as entertained because it was very clear what I was going to do, but can they execute that thing? And that's what I think is pretty neat about, you know, watching tournament play, that two games can be drastically different in their layout, their complexity, the challenges that it presents, but it can still be very entertaining as a tournament game.
    135:23
    There we go. So those are good questions. Thanks to all that answered that. Please, you know, check out our Facebook page if you want. Normally we post before we're going to stream, and you guys can obviously comment there. I feel really bad. I think we had gotten one or two emails over the last month, but I don't have that on my phone, so I can't pull those up. So sorry about that. I will say I did get an email.
    135:47
    Here, I'm not going to spoil it. We will make a post about it. We have a new T-shirt design that we're going to probably put it on our Zazzle store just based off what it is. And so we will post that to our social media.
    136:02
    It's a T-shirt design. This is the first time Tom and I are hearing this. I'm telling you right now, it's a T-shirt design that is out there already. But I pulled some strings, and we are going to make it public and available to everybody. Wait a minute, out there already? There are people that already have it. What? And others are going to be able to get it. I am so confused right now. I am too. That's great. You guys are going to love it. So people already have merch associated with our podcast, and Tom and I don't even know about it?
    136:35
    Interesting. Tom, do you have any pictures from your younger days that you need to tell us about? What's going on here? I have no idea what's going on, and I'm very interested to find out. We'll make a post. Okay. Yeah. Well, with that said, let's plug it up. Travis, plug away.
    136:53
    Yeah, you guys can find me on this podcast as usual. And also, too, I do have a video finally dropping to where I'm doing commentary over on the Pinball Company's YouTube channel. I have a big, huge Venom game that's dropping. It's an hour-long game to where I scored something like 25, 30 billion points. And we're going to talk over the game and just go from there. So, yeah. So this is an hour-long video of you talking through a game of Venom that you played. A full game. Yeah, I think on this one I go through the game twice. And during this hour-long video, did your face camera stay on the entire video? It did not. We had to change it. I actually had my video on it the whole time. And then when I was going through the editing, I was just like, shit, it went out 45 minutes into it. So at least it's consistent. So I ended up taking it off, but yeah. It's just me figuring out how the game plays, just discussing general tactics to everybody. So if you want to see the game, if you have like a certain thing that you want to see in it, that would be the video to go see because I'll have chapters and all that. So that's my one plug I'll do. And then, of course, I'll be selling lunchboxes and apparently T-shirts too with Joel's face. He doesn't know yet. So, yeah. That's all I got.
    138:11
    Thank you, Travis. Tom, plug away. Thank you, Joel. You can find me on this podcast, but you can also find me on Fox Cities Pinball, where I'm strapped to District 82 until Pinball Expo in Chicago.
    138:28
    Wonderful. Thank you, Tom. And once again, check out his new merch with the new Fox Cities logo. And, yes, my name is Joel. I do the Flippin' Out stream every Wednesday night from 10 to midnight on YouTube. Check that out. All of our old streams are on YouTube, so you can see those. have a lot of fun with those as well as flipping out with friends conversations obviously on this podcast and then still working on hopefully getting another interview lined up but I assume we will record again before expo hopefully we do if not I know I will be there I know Tom's going to be there and then Travis might make a make an appearance but if we happen to not record before that please come and say hi we'd love to meet you if you want to say hi and um yeah should be a good time but uh yeah like always tom you get the last words chill your godzilla tappers on fire